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View Full Version : Slow film-like pan (request)



dmoreno
06-08-2009, 11:49 PM
Lots of stuff has been said in this forum about the mud issue and lots of clips and stills showing the mud have been uploaded.

I've spent several hours a day for the last month checking this forum but I still haven't seen any 1/50 shutter, wideangle, slow film-like pan of high detail foliage to be able to tell how bad the mud issue really is on a practical basis (not on crazy whip pans trying to make it look its worse). I saw some stills, but no real footage.

This is a request to all of you lucky guys that already own a GH1 to see if you are able to record this type of shot (lets say 90 degree pan in 10 seconds to set a reference speed) and upload it to Vimeo (uploading raw material to a server would be awesome :thumbsup:).

I know most of all would love to see how each of the formats (AVCHD 1080 24p (or 25p), AVCHD 720 60p (or 50p) and MJPEG 720 30p) handles the motion in normal usable pans.

It would also be great to see how does a slow pan but tracking a moving person with the background out of focus looks.

I know this is not a typical way to start a thread, but I know a lot of people are looking for this type of footage and this type of test could really shed some light on the famous mud-issue everyone is talking about.
I also know there are lots of helpful persons reading this forum, so I am sure someone will help! :beer:

EDIT: It seems, as I was writting this post and trying to do as little mistakes as possible (as English is not my native language), commanderspike posted a video that shows basically what I wanted to see. http://www.vimeo.com/5072139. I would like to know the shutter speed that was used. Still would love to see the comparison of AVCHD 1080, 720 and MJPEG 720 to see how each does!

commanderspike
06-09-2009, 12:29 AM
New clip at http://www.vimeo.com/5072914

Shot this in 1080 24p, no mud this time. It's too early to tell if this is due to shooting at night, but even so there is a lot of detail in this low light scene shot at a night market in Taiwan:

When I saw the lack of mud - it really cheered me up :)

ISO was 400 if I remember correctly. Unfortunately the GH1 does not store EXIF style info for AVCHD video clips.

EDIT: Damned Vimeo has converted the clip incorrectly, treating it as non-HD 4:3. Will fix shortly.

dmoreno
06-09-2009, 12:56 AM
That came faster than I thought! Thanks a lot commanderspike!
I downloaded your video from Vimeo, no sign of "mud" at all!! Good news! Do you remember the shutter speed you shot at?
Someone had stated that green detail is what makes the codec break. Maybe it didn't break here due to the lack of green in the shot... Let's hope it is just the speed that helped!

commanderspike
06-09-2009, 01:21 AM
Shutter speed was 1/30 (minimum shutter speed in video mode).

Ignore the Vimeo clip, it has an unexpected issue with the aspect ratio.

Now uploaded to Exposure Room instead:

http://www.exposureroom.com/gh1atnight

Jackson Miller
06-09-2009, 03:42 AM
Um... that's not a pan. That's a tilt. And it could make a difference. Maybe this cam just handles vertical movement better than horizontal. How about doing some more tests! Haha.

Still, very nice footage and thanks for posting it up for us.

dmoreno
06-09-2009, 07:20 AM
I don't think the problem is only with horizontal movement. Sudden changes in the frame is what makes the codec break. I believe 3 reasons made this tilt succesful 1. Slow Shutter 2. slow enough speed (we're yet to find the "maximum" moving speed the GH1 can handle) 3. Less detail in the frame than other tests (no green)
We encourage you to keep on testing commanderspike and anyone who wants to join!!

Jean Dantes
06-09-2009, 12:33 PM
This video has a slow-pan at 1:11:

http://vimeo.com/5076887

dmoreno
06-09-2009, 09:53 PM
Jean, thanks a lot for that link! I just saw the clip on vimeo and it doesn't look "muddy" at all. I am downloading the quicktime right now for better resolution.

It seems you can indeed get away with slow pans in 1080!

dmoreno
06-10-2009, 07:39 AM
pappasart found this footage that showed more of what were looking for:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAu...eature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAuO2ltKg&feature=channel)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvxah...eature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvxah2_4Xw8&feature=channel)

The first one shows a slow pan at the end (also some movement from the boat that can shed some light in how a slow dolly can look)

The second one shows how a a slow tilt doesn't break up. It's slow and not so wideangle, but still is nice to start finding SHOTS THAT CAN BE DONE instead of SHOTS THAT CAN BRING THE "MUD"

PD: Still begging you GH1 owners for a controlled test to try to find the "maximum no-mud panning speed" shooting wide and lots of green detail at different speeds until the mud shows up.
Also the comparison of how each AVCHD 1080, AVHCD 720 and MJPEG 720 handle similar same shots.

stav1606
06-10-2009, 10:18 AM
What needs to be checked is something I noticed. It seems that no matter how fast the pan, the image breaks up for a second and then is fine again. It is not broken up for the entire pan. It s like it is taking a second to increase the bit rate or something, Has anyone else noticed this?

John Caballero
06-10-2009, 10:40 AM
Yes sir. It is like you pull rip the image as you start the pan then it catches on. In the first video shows how you can start a pan with the boat coming more towards the camera as you begging the pan then passing by smoothly. There are techniques that you can develop and make the panning work fine. I would like to see crane shots and tracking shots as well.

dmoreno
06-10-2009, 11:41 PM
What needs to be checked is something I noticed. It seems that no matter how fast the pan, the image breaks up for a second and then is fine again. It is not broken up for the entire pan. It s like it is taking a second to increase the bit rate or something, Has anyone else noticed this?

That is an interesting theory. Maybe the tech-guys we have around here might know more about how the variable bitrate AVCHD works and tell us if that could be true.
If this is true, mud could be avoided by starting to pan slowly and then speeding up, to let the bitrate catch up. (as John Caballero pointed out seemed to work in the "boat pan")

PappasArts
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
New clip at http://www.vimeo.com/5072914

Shot this in 1080 24p, no mud this time. It's too early to tell if this is due to shooting at night, but even so there is a lot of detail in this low light scene shot at a night market in Taiwan:

When I saw the lack of mud - it really cheered me up :)

ISO was 400 if I remember correctly. Unfortunately the GH1 does not store EXIF style info for AVCHD video clips.

EDIT: Damned Vimeo has converted the clip incorrectly, treating it as non-HD 4:3. Will fix shortly.


looks good Thanks for posting...


Was this a NTSC 1080/60i 24fps camera or a PAL GH1?

No Mud even in the detailed parts on this pan down either...



.

Barry_Green
06-11-2009, 12:45 AM
Okay, that's actually a really interesting idea -- starting the pan early, to let the VBR catch up to the higher demands. Didn't someone post earlier that the GoP could be as long as 30 frames? That'd take a good half-second to 1.25 seconds for the camera to establish a new higher bitrate GoP for the next sequence, so ... maybe there's something to this theory...

Martti Ekstrand
06-11-2009, 12:55 AM
That was DrBlaz, who has really dug through the encoding from various cams

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1660131&postcount=21

1080: NTSC every 15 frames - PAL every 13 frames

720: NTSC every 30 frames - PAL every 26 frames

Which then averages two I frames per second in either mode.

PappasArts
06-11-2009, 02:26 AM
Here's a video from someone that just got their GH1 in Austin.

It's a 1080/24 originated piece filmed around town.

http://vimeo.com/5101570



Download the 720P down convert.


.

Drcoffee
06-11-2009, 03:12 AM
Here's a video from someone that just got their GH1 in Austin. http://vimeo.com/5101570

In some places the skew and Jello is really bad. Is skew/jello that bad in 720p?

At 00:37 have a look at the lamp post!

Abstract Photog
06-11-2009, 03:37 AM
In some places the skew and Jello is really bad. Is skew/jello that bad in 720p?

At 00:37 have a look at the lamp post!
yea, but look at how bad the camera is wobbling and whipping around.
we've already established that you need to stabalize this thing for smooth
shots with no jello.

i also dont find it to be that bad for what he was doing with the camera.
not to mention he seemed to be zoomed in for a lot of those shots, in a
car, hand held

PappasArts
06-11-2009, 03:37 AM
In some places the skew and Jello is really bad. Is skew/jello that bad in 720p?

At 00:37 have a look at the lamp post!

I noticed that too. However it is pretty sharp, especially the close ups. It holds well on his patterned shirt too.

The owner made that same obervation how bad the skew ( JELLO ) is on his GH1. It's pretty much on par with Canon I think in 1080P as for JELLO goes.

However the GH1 has almost no, or near zero skewing in 720P 60 or 30 mode.

Skew is just a fact of life right now. I'm over it as long as it's not like the D90. Overtime it will get less with technical advancements that fine tuned to reduce, or even eliminate skew.


.

stav1606
06-11-2009, 04:10 AM
Guys come on what are you talking about???

This is the lamp itself that is bent. Everything else on the same part of the video is standing straight up...

Jackson Miller
06-11-2009, 03:36 PM
Here's a video from someone that just got their GH1 in Austin.

It's a 1080/24 originated piece filmed around town.

http://vimeo.com/5101570



Download the 720P down convert.


.

To be honest, I don't see the jello as being too big of a problem here, especially because of the way he was shooting. It only bugged me in a few shots. People won't be looking for it like us guys.

This video does concern me though because of the skin tones. Everything is so darn yellow! I hope it's just a WB issue or something. But I mean, it looks horrible. And kinda mushy and blocky. Something is off with the contrast. Look at :21 and :56 and pretty much any shot where there is a shadow on his face or less lighting. I am gonna hope these are just weird settings because other footage I have seen doesn't have this problem (though some of it did, but this is the worst I have seen.) Do you guys see what I mean?

Joe Shaw
06-11-2009, 03:39 PM
That clip has been coloured using iMovie - says so in the Vimeo description, so perhaps not the best to judge colouring, skintone etc.

John Caballero
06-11-2009, 03:41 PM
Yeah, it looks like he messed around with the colors a bit. There are a lot of color settings and WB to work with in camera. You can tell color is no problem in many other samples. He was whipping that camera around and there were only maybe two intances were breaking was bothersome. Otherwise it looked pretty good to me.

dmoreno
06-11-2009, 04:14 PM
Noticed the same as you John, from the way the camera was being handled I think the codec didn't break that badly.
In regards to the off colors it has to be wrong white-balance or some sort of color tweaking in post. Color from the GH1 appears very natural in every other video that has been posted.
This video gave me hope!

dmoreno
06-11-2009, 04:21 PM
I was also checking the videos from this torrent http://dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=173958 (thanks to Ed for providing raw footage). I saw it on my Viera 42 inch plasma through my PS3 and most of the shots held up pretty well. It look much better than it looked in my PC laptop using VLC, the software decoder seemed to introduce more artifacts than what really existed, it seems AVCHD is still hard to handle even for the newer laptops (mine is a Core 2 duo with 4GB or ram). I wouldn't say the mud was a big problem in most of his material (though you could see it from time to time, but nothing disastrous)
His GH1 is a PAL model.
more hope!