Canon HF S10 24p Cinema Mode: Does it have pulldown flags? Is it 3:2 or 2:3:3:2?

[Ralph Oshiro]

Canon HF S10 24p Cinema Mode: Does it have pulldown flags? Is it 3:2 or 2:3:3:2?

Okay, so this looks like the perfect, compact, 24p B-roll camera for car mounting, etc. It's got a huge sensor (0.39") for a camera in this class, and has a huge front element (58mm). But from reading Barry's posts in another thread, there may be some problems with this camera's 24p "Cinema Mode." Since it's one of Canon's models which doesn't include what Canon calls, a "native 24P" mode, does its 60i-wrapped, 24p Cinema Mode have the "flags" needed by modern NLEs (e.g., FinalCut Studio 2) to just drop its footage into a 24p FCP timeline without any problems?

I mean, a DVX100 shoots 2:3:3:2 pulldown footage in a 60i wrapper, and drops into a 24p timeline just fine. My Sony DSR450WSL also shoots 2:3:3:2 pulldown footage, also contained in a 60i wrapper, and it also drops into a 24p timeline just fine. Is this because both these cameras "flag" the pulldown? Does anyone know if the new Canon HF S10 flags its pulldown in a similar fashion? Also, does anyone know if its pulldown is 3:2 or 2:3:3:2? Does anyone know if this camera's footage is "FinalCut Pro friendly" or not (e.g., won't need workarounds or third-party software to ingest/edit)?

Thanks for any replies!

[Ralph Oshiro]

A quick Google search revealed this post from another forum [http://www.hv20.com]:

From a thread titled: "Best PullDown Removal for CANON HF S10's AVCHD Footage: In searching the internet there is a lot of information about removing the 3:2 pulldown. In searching particularly for this camera it appears that quite a few people are using Cineform's NeoScene to edit the AVCHD and to do the 3:2 pulldown. But there are some people saying that After Effects and JES Deinterlacer do a better job at guessing the cadence [the assumed "problem" which Barry Green mentioned] since Canon doesn't flag the frames. I was wondering what the best solution for doing the 3:2 pulldown is and is using Cineform the best editing option for 24P AVCHD for this camera."

So I presume, the answer to my initial question is: "No?"

[Ralph Oshiro]

Kudos to Ethan Gunning! I am copying his Vimeo post here, sans permission (hope he won't mind). Finally . . . an answer (not the one we hoped for, unfortunately).

"Ethan Gunning 2 months ago:
Does anyone know how [Canon's HF S10's/S100's] 24p/30p footage works with Final Cut? I know that the camera adds a pull-down to keep it at 60i. I also know that Final Cut does a Pro Res conversion upon capture. Does it also perform the pull-down removal during this Pro Res conversion (similar to how Final Cut removes flagged frames in DVCProHD with Panasonic's 24PA). In other words, is the footage 23.976fps in the timeline after capture? Or do you have to run Cinema Tools on all the footage afterwards to remove the pull-down?"

[Since no one answered his post, he answered it himself . . .]

"Ethan Gunning 1 month ago:
OK. I just bought the camera anyway since I couldn't find any info online about how it works with Final Cut Pro. Here is the basic details on trying to shoot and work at 24fps (23.976). FCP does NOT do a reverse telecine on ingest (transcode to ProRes 422) as the frames are not flagged by Canon. Once in the project, you can do a reverse telecine using Cinema Tools although I don't recommend it (Cinema Tools guess at the cadence is not correct and it seems to confuse FCP as to field dominance afterwards). I also found Compressor to be somewhat lacking (although being able to create a droplet is nice...I found some interlace artifacts on the last frame). I had best results using JES Deinterlacer (what an awesome and free program) outside of FCP and then relinking or replacing all the clips. However, this ads extra time and duplicate files. My main preference is really to get rid of the fields more than it is to work at 24fps. I'm not looking at a film-out, so I really just wanted footage that was progressive. I tried the 30P setting on the camera and guess what? It ingests/transcodes into FCP as 30p. There are no fields and FCP recognizes it as progressive. So, there you go. I'm just going to shoot at 30p (which also gives you better low light performance according to camcorderinfo.com) and if I need to match a 24p project, I can either use JES or hope that Canon&Apple come up with a better solution in the near future. It really is an awesome little camera."

Problem with that is, shooting at 30p looks much like shooting at 60i, yes? You don't get the motion characteristics of 24p at 30p. You don't get that cinematic, "24p look". At 30p, you get "live" looking, soap opera-like video images (albeit, progressive ones). Am I right?

[Isaac_Brody]

Check out VoltaicHD. I've used it successfully for removing pulldown from Canon and Panasonic cameras. It's much cheaper than Neoscene.

http://www.shedworx.com/voltaichd

There's a demo you can try out and see if you like it. When I use it I do pulldown and encode to prores for editing in final cut.

[Ralph Oshiro]

Thanks! Just to clarify: You've used VoltaicHD, yes? Have you used it specifically on footage shot on a Canon camera, using the camera's (unflagged) "24p Cinema Mode?" And did VoltaicHD have any cadence problems during its pull-up? Were you then able to ingest into FCP (transcoding to ProRes), able to toss the resulting file into an FCP 24p timeline with no problems? I can't try it out, since these are all pre-purchase questions. I'm not buying the Canon HF S10 until I can determine how I can extract its unflagged, so-called "24p Cinema Mode" footage into a 24p FCP timeline.

[Marlon Ladd]

I'm in the same exact boat and am on the computer trying to research as we speak. If you find out any info, please let me know.

[HC Arnold]

neoscene def works. just finished testing with s100 footage.

[Marlon Ladd]

Yeah, I've found neoscene does work and it's much faster than votaichd.

[commalot]

Does anyone have some sample clips posted of the HF-S10/100 using Neoscene on 24PF footage? I'd like to see how cinematic you can make it. I have a HF-S100 and Adobe Production Premium in the mail.