Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update [Archive] - Page 4 - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 12:31 PM

The fact is that if the old man pan was a narrative film you would do a few takes. If you knew the pan wasn't working what you would do is frame him running from different angles and move the action along without panning. Wide angle like he starts, front angle medium shot, low angle and whatever to keep the action moving whithout neccesarily panning. In addition I would like to know what happens if you move the camera along while you pan instead of living it static and panning. Also a crane and pan situation. This pan thing is a very minor glitch in an otherwise very nice and sharp and very well colored image from the GH1. If you are just a little bit creative in your shots you will do very well with it. There is no doubt about it. I was watching the Vimeo links squig posted for the 5D and there is a lot of nasty jello on many of them. Despite that people are touting them as great. Go figure.

DrBlaz

06-09-2009, 12:36 PM

Wow, that truly is awful. Again not a 'whip-pan' by any means. Just sad and pathetic.

Speaking of sad and pathetic, there's this:

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/atepper/story/lumix_gh1_camera_surprising_responses_from_panason ic/

Another chance for Panasonic to fess up to some of the problems with the GH1, and they totally drop the ball with canned, dry answers. Way to go Panny! :(

sure this is sad and pathetic, mr tepper has no idea what he is talking about.

he said the GH1 is wasting a lot of bandwidth storing 24p over 60i and 25p over 50i, cause "The maximum available 17 megabits per second is divided up among 59.94 fields, instead of only 23.976 progressive frames" , this is ridiculous , over 60i the GH1 stores 60 half frames, 12 of them repeated, the repeated frames are managed by h.264 coded with a few bytes, the real waste of bandwidth is ridiculous.

Also, he complains about the 4:2:0 encoder , all cams in this price range are 4:2:0.

Daniel L.

06-09-2009, 12:43 PM

Jim Klatt

06-09-2009, 12:49 PM

What's up with vimeo? Anyone else having issues?

Dalton Boettcher

06-09-2009, 12:56 PM

What's up with vimeo? Anyone else having issues?

Yes.

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Klatt http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1659831#post1659831)
What's up with vimeo? Anyone else having issues?

Is in meltdown mode. Too much "mud" perhaps?

Jim Klatt

06-09-2009, 01:21 PM

Unpredictable movement is the nature of doc work for me. Having an image breakdown like that, unless you do very slow, controlled pans would make it impossible.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 01:34 PM

True Jim. This appears to not be the case in 720 30p MJPEG on the camera though.

BradM

06-09-2009, 02:28 PM

I was watching the Vimeo links squig posted for the 5D and there is a lot of nasty jello on many of them. Despite that people are touting them as great. Go figure.

yup "Jello" has become a buzz word for the modern HD video generation( "yo does your vid have jello... " ) and in some circles is sort of accepted . "Mud" on the other hand hasn't yet earned anything other then its meaning for ugly smears of a breaking codec. Maybe in a year we will talk with the same regard about "Mud".

I hope not :(

Daniel L.

06-09-2009, 02:41 PM

Thing about jello is that if it is becoming a problem there is something wrong in your shot already! Unless you are simulating an earthquake, or a camera operator falling down a flight of stairs, stabilize your shot!

Trouble with "mud" is that it does not really mater if your shot is steady or not.....

Psynema

06-09-2009, 02:48 PM

Hopefully it ain't a big problem in the end. HDV cameras mud as well on rapid motion and generally I keep my shots static and really don't like the handheld pan/ zoom ENG shooting.

Though hopefully it doesn't deteriorate the footage on a steadicam.

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 02:49 PM

The problem is tha "jello" appears everywhere unanounced, especially of course handheld. "Mud" is appearing so far in pans and some tilts. I believe settings are not properly set to handle this pans properly. It is very frustrating not having my own cam to start testing. But, nothing happens before its time. I personally feel that "jello" appearing in the middle of a scene is horrible, no matter how acceptable it has become.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 02:52 PM

Alos there seems to be a "NO MUD" shooting mode on this camera.

Which while it's unfortunate that that mode is not 1080 24p - means there's a built in work around right in the camera.

Daniel L.

06-09-2009, 02:52 PM

The problem is tha "jello" appears everywhere, especially of course handheld. ...

That's because the shot is already unstable and distracting. Getting rid of jello won't help, it's ruined to begin with! If you don't shake the camera or swing it around like a baseball bat jello is gone. You are left with rapid pans, and it's not as distracting since there is no wobble. Get the camera out of your hands if you can't hold still.

But I agree, jello really drives me nuts.. Can be very distracting. When I saw Peter Jackson's Crossing the Line, the only thing I could focus on was things waving around...

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 03:03 PM

Alos there seems to be a "NO MUD" shooting mode on this camera.

Which while it's unfortunate that that mode is not 1080 24p - means there's a built in work around right in the camera.

There is no doubt in my mind that a lot of pretty looking footage will come out of this camera. If only I could get my hands on one already. Frustrating but what can you do but wait in line.

Boz

06-09-2009, 03:27 PM

Alos there seems to be a "NO MUD" shooting mode on this camera.

Which while it's unfortunate that that mode is not 1080 24p - means there's a built in work around right in the camera.

I'd settle for 720 24p Mjeg mode. :)

Boz

06-09-2009, 03:44 PM

there's a built in work around right in the camera.

Actually I wanted to expanded on this thought more. By workaround you mean 30/60P mode. Which of course means retiming. Which means computer processing. It also means the computer may not get it right (especially with action) and even if it does it could still look weird. See what Stu Maschwitz has to say about it:

http://rebelsguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26384#26384

Jim Klatt

06-09-2009, 04:39 PM

The jello hasn't been much of a problem for me. I have been able to get rid of jello by outfitting a simple shoulder stabilizer. My setup is almost like using an old ENG camera off of the shoulder which I really prefer. The only time jello is of consequence is with anything 100 mm or longer, or sometimes in moving macro shots when I cannot use a tripod, otherwise it's gone.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 04:44 PM

Actually I wanted to expanded on this thought more. By workaround you mean 30/60P mode. Which of course means retiming. Which means computer processing. It also means the computer may not get it right (especially with action) and even if it does it could still look weird. See what Stu Maschwitz has to say about it:

http://rebelsguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26384#26384
I'm wondering if the comparative lack of jello with teh MII vs GH1 might help in the post process. I can see jello confusing optical flow post retiming processes.

I mean it goes against what those conversion systems are looking for, continuity in movement of lines and shapes - then suddenly the lines and shapes go wonky.

Daniel L.

06-09-2009, 04:57 PM

As long as you don't mishandle the camera the rolling shutter is fine. Especially if you follow the ASC guidelines!

Here is a short with lots of fighting and action sequences: http://www.vimeo.com/4209574

Personally, I did not notice any rolling shutter distortion in that. I'm sure it's in there someplace to some extent.. Maybe if I looked really close, and got a yardstick to take some measurements..

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 04:57 PM

BTW Jack, which cam did you use for Cold Calls?

stav1606

06-09-2009, 06:09 PM

Here is a short with lots of fighting and action sequences: http://www.vimeo.com/4209574

Personally, I did not notice any rolling shutter distortion in that.

First of all this is off topic, but anyway, this video is full of jello.
I don't even know where to start. The train in the beginning, top left, is bent, as well as the brown door on 0.34, the walls on 0.47, 0.51, the pipes on 1.14, and 1.22... anyways, no need to tire you but the mud would be equally or more unnoticed if what you focus on is the fighting
These are faults that you have to look for in most of the cases. People paying attention to the plot rather than the technicalities will not notice...

Daniel L.

06-09-2009, 06:24 PM

None of that really pops out at me, but I don't disagree with you. You are probably right, maybe I'm just not paying enough attention.

First of all this is off topic, ...
Agreed, dropping it.

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 06:49 PM

this video is full of jello.

A lot jello. I say too much for my taste.

PappasArts

06-09-2009, 07:04 PM

I'm wondering if the comparative lack of jello with teh MII vs GH1 might help in the post process. I can see jello confusing optical flow post retiming processes.

I mean it goes against what those conversion systems are looking for, continuity of movement of lines and shapes - then suddenly the lines and shapes go wonky.

Well the Jello doesn't seem to be stopping Cinematographer Rodney Charters ASC, using six 5D's on a CBS action series production.

Take a look here in this Video news clip that talks about RED footage vs 5DMII demonstration on 20ft screens at NAB by Cinematographer Rodney Charters ; It's worth the watch.

LINK:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=173892

.

squig

06-09-2009, 07:05 PM

lol I watched it twice and didn't see any jello that bothered me.

I'm off to the local camera shop now to order a MKII....nuff said

Barry_Green

06-09-2009, 07:11 PM

Please correct me if I am mistaking, but based on how the sampling works the only time 4:2:2 would give you an advantage is on an interlaced camera.

Most cameras today are progressive, hence 4:2:0...
4:2:2 is *always* better than 4:2:0. There is not an imaginable circumstance where 4:2:2 wouldn't be better than 4:2:0.

Now, it's true that 4:2:0 in interlaced mode is hideously awful, so much so that 4:1:1 is preferred because it retains chroma every line, even if that chroma is spread across 4 pixels. 4:2:0 in progressive is much superior to 4:2:0 in interlaced, and basically a wash as compared to 4:1:1.

But 4:2:0 doesn't hold a candle to 4:2:2 in any circumstance. In interlaced, 4:2:2 is approximately six hundred gazillion times better than 4:2:0 in interlaced. In progressive, it's exactly twice as good, twice as high resolution.

Barry_Green

06-09-2009, 07:13 PM

BTW Jack, which cam did you use for Cold Calls?
An HPX170. With a Letus Ultimate.

PappasArts

06-09-2009, 07:18 PM

lol I watched it twice and didn't see any jello that bothered me.

I'm off to the local camera shop now to order a MKII....nuff said

Agreed, that "mojo" that the Canon gives that short out ways any ridiculous micro measurebating will point out.

I would rather eat a bowl full of jello, then a bowl full of mud...

1. One way to prevent mud: Minimize quick movements, and fast pans.

2. One way to minimize jello: Minimize quick movements, and fast pans.

Hmmm; same difference.

I say pick the one with the best and largest image.....

.

PappasArts

06-09-2009, 07:21 PM

An HPX170. With a Letus Ultimate.

No more adapters...Please!

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d94/PappasArts/RIP35MMadapter.jpg

.

Psynema

06-09-2009, 07:22 PM

http://www.thesunblog.com/entertainment/232338%7EBill-Cosby-Posters.jpg

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 07:22 PM

An HPX170. With a Letus Ultimate.

Thanks Barry. The trailer looks excellent.

didn't see any jello that bothered me.

One cinematographer's jello is another man's dessert.

PappasArts

06-09-2009, 07:33 PM

T

One cinematographer's jello is another man's dessert.

At least in jello-vision you can tell that the character is holding a gun.

In mud-vision; you can't tell whether it's a slice of chocolate cake or a fist full of lint from the dryer.

If they remade Twister today , Jan de Bont could just use GH1's and start spinning them violently to generate the muddy/dirty looking twisters with out hiring ILM.

.

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 07:49 PM

In mud-vision; you can't tell whether it's a slice of chocolate cake or a fist full of lint from the dryer.

Only if you pan of course. I guess jello vision at 30FPS has its artistic place. At least we have a choice: jello or mud. Which one tastes better?

Barry_Green

06-09-2009, 07:49 PM

I say pick the one with the best and largest image.....
And, by your interpretation, that means the one with twice the price?

Look, this thread is for people to figure out how to work with the GH1, not to come in trying to prosletyze them to the Canon. If all you have to say is "get the Canon", well, you've said it, so please move on.

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 07:51 PM

Yep, all the Canon owners and promoters would you kindly move on to the Canon 5D forum. Thats your home folks.

SonicStates

06-09-2009, 08:07 PM

In interlaced, 4:2:2 is approximately six hundred gazillion times better than 4:2:0 in interlaced.

That was awesome.

Now, I know I'm going to get burned for this but with all due respect to everyone here I think even the dead horse is starting to feel resentment at the flogging it is receiving.

Daniel L.

06-09-2009, 08:20 PM

It's unfortunate that other cameras keep coming up in this thread. For the money, this camera is great. Would be very difficult to beat. It can do what the 5D can't at twice the price. If I ever gave the impression that it's a poor choice that was never my intent. There is no doubt people will shoot fantastic material with the GH1.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 08:36 PM

Thread was locked for a bit.

Did some clean up.

Unlocking.

There's a point where making a the same pointover and over again becomes thread crapping. If you've made a point about the MII move on.

The topic of this thread = GH1 specifically the MUD issue in panning in some modes, how bad is it, and what can be done about it.

Thread crapping = at least an infraction from here on out if not banning.

Personal attacks = banning from here on out. Zero tolerance mode.

It is quite evident that this camera is very popular. As such, there are going to be a wide range of folks with differing opinions posting in this section.

New cameras tend to bring out the worst in people's behaviors on the boards.

Please keep in mind the rules of the forum, and avoid the personal jabs, etc... It is quite possible to have a debate, discussion, etc... and still remain professional and respectful to one another.

I'm seeing some of you making veiled insults, etc... Please stop. I don't want to have to step in, but some of you who should know better for sure, need to be the example of the tone we like to keep on this forum, not the ones throwing jabs, etc.

Thanks.

later,
Jason

Mattykins

06-09-2009, 08:48 PM

I haven't read the entire thread. But I can't help but think something went terribly awry in the process of shooting that.

I think this might be the same situation that happened when the HV20 came out. People didn't properly test it, they pushed the camera too far, posted the, now infamous - jello, and started to complain. Whereas I have never ever experienced anything similar to those early "tests".

I think it might be too early to tell. And it is definitely way to early to judge. We don't yet know how far we can push the camera. We only know that some people have evidently pushed it too far, or did something horribly wrong in the process.

Ride it out a bit. See what starts to turn up and see if it is a recurring situation and under what parameters the situation occurs in.

shaun1970

06-09-2009, 08:53 PM

This thread would make great viewing on Springer.

PappasArts

06-09-2009, 09:45 PM

Does the playback from the GH1 play out correctly from HDMI as it does from a PS3. If so wouldn't it be better to capture a proper 3:2 signal using a HDMI capture card to a better codec on the fly.

I know it seems like going back a step using a capture device, however if most issues are attributed to SW inability to reconstruct the 1080/24, why not try another route to ingesting the footage...

Assuming the GH1 correctly outputs the HDMI signal in proper 3:2 pull down like a PS3..

.

John Caballero

06-09-2009, 09:55 PM

I would like to know how the image reacts in a crane shot. Paning the camera on a crane move. Also tracking sideways, and going forward and pulling out. Also if it pans better at night shots or indoors maybe shooting with a higher shutter and closed aperture work better? Just rambling, but thats all the test I want to do when I get my camera. I hope before Christmas eve.

sunburst

06-09-2009, 10:01 PM

so wouldn't it be better to capture a proper 3:2 signal using a HDMI capture card to a better codec on the fly.

.

Yes of course, but I thought I read several posts saying this WAS not
possible.

by the way, the 5d cant do this full output either.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 10:08 PM

You can playback on HDMI. As soon as you hit record the HDMI signal goes bye bye.

squig

06-09-2009, 10:23 PM

This thread would make great viewing on Springer.

awww whaadid I miss? Jerry Jerry Jerry......

So I go down to the local camera house to buy the camera I'm not allowed to mention and they tell me the price has gone up $500! sok I think I can get one online at the old price. the saga continues.

PappasArts

06-09-2009, 10:25 PM

Yes of course, but I thought I read several posts saying this WAS not
possible.

by the way, the 5d cant do this full output either.

I mean playback from the already recorded to memory card....

So are you saying that if you playback footage from the SD card via the GH1. it's at a reduced resolution?

.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 10:31 PM

PappasArts

06-09-2009, 10:32 PM

You can playback on HDMI. As soon as you hit record the HDMI signal goes bye bye.

I'm wondering about playing back already recorded footage from the SD card in the GH1 Via HDMI to a HDMI capture card device assuming that the GH1 reconstructs the playback output in proper 3:2 pull down in a 1080i signal vs SW programs that seem not to able to perform reconstruction well. People have reported on output of footage played back from their PS3's as having correct pull down etc...

.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 10:35 PM

I'm wondering about playing back already recorded footage from the SD card in the GH1 Via HDMI to a HDMI capture card device assuming that the GH1 reconstructs the playback output in proper 3:2 pull down in a 1080i signal vs SW programs that seem not to able to perform reconstruction well. People have reported on output of footage played back from their PS3's as having correct pull down etc...

.

That's an interesting thought and well worth looking into for sure.

sunburst

06-09-2009, 10:38 PM

Well it's post codec at that point. Whatever damage has been done to the image due to the poor or insufficient implementation of the 17mbps AVCHD is written in stone at that point.

So it's 1080, or 720 or whatever you've recorded at. But if you've recorded mud it's there now.

(I'm assuming the live HDMI out was brought up in the hopes one might be able to record externally before compression - sorry if I'm not following what's being asked here.)

Jack, if your saying it outputs UNTIL you hit record, this sounds like a hack
might be possible. I know nothing about electronics. but the blackmagic
intensity card for my HV20 is only $ 250.oo bucks. { not sure if the cs4
drivers are working yet, its been delayed and I havent tested lately}

However, then maybe EVEN A CARD could somehow coax a signal out of it?

Who knows people at blackmagic or AJA or?

admactanium

06-09-2009, 10:49 PM

That's an interesting thought and well worth looking into for sure.
It's been established that the playback from the camera itself also has the artifacts. Many of the original shots of the "mud" in this thread were photos of the playback screen.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 10:52 PM

Jack, if your saying it outputs UNTIL you hit record, this sounds like a hack
might be possible. I know nothing about electronics. but the blackmagic
intensity card for my HV20 is only $ 250.oo bucks. { not sure if the cs4
drivers are working yet, its been delayed and I havent tested lately}

However, then maybe EVEN A CARD could somehow coax a signal out of it?

Who knows people at blackmagic or AJA or?
My camera doesn't come until tomorrow (hopefully) but that's nearly a quote from Kholi I believe. I'll try to confirm miñana. I'm 99% sure he said he had an image until he hit record. Don't think it was just playback ... hmmm ... not sure now.

sunburst

06-09-2009, 11:06 PM

It's been established that the playback from the camera itself also has the artifacts. Many of the original shots of the "mud" in this thread were photos of the playback screen.

bro, I think any playback would be from the signal recorded TO THE CARD via
codec.

were talking about BYPASSING the recording in the camera.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-09-2009, 11:11 PM

Yeah now we are. He was responding to PappasArts idea that it might output the pulldown correctly from the card though. It's gone back and forth from one idea to the other a couple of times actually.

sunburst

06-09-2009, 11:35 PM

Yeah now we are. He was responding to PappasArts idea that it might output the pulldown correctly from the card though. It's gone back and forth from one idea to the other a couple of times actually.

oh ok - lol.

I don't have a playstation, so have no idea what pappasarts broached.

[ I should change that to "suggested" . Broached, in print, sounds like someone threw up their breakfast }

PappasArts

06-09-2009, 11:50 PM

That's an interesting thought and well worth looking into for sure.

I have been thinking about this for a week or so. I posted a question a few days ago, however this thread moves lightening fast, so it got overlooked.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1656142#post1656142

If it's possible to capture footage like this, you could grab it from the SD cards via the GH1 in proper form and to a very good codec via hardware codec on card with all 24 untangled out of the 1080i/60.

oh ok - lol.

I don't have a playstation, so have no idea what pappasarts broached.

[ I should change that to "suggested" . Broached, in print, sounds like someone threw up their breakfast }

Since the GH1 has to be compliant with consumer devices on playback from SD card it would output the 3:2 pulldown corrected via the HDMI to a TV etc. This signal would be most likely a 1080i/60 with the 3:2 in correct form. The blackmagic intensity card knows that pattern and can untangle that to a selected high quality codec of choice in true 24fps or 23.98. Just a hypothesis, however could be a good work around if it has merit. Just like capturing video from a HV20.

That said, the PS3 if it has HDMI, could be used as a playback deck to feed a Black magic card too. Assuming the above hypothesis has possibilities....

.

ryansheffer

06-09-2009, 11:58 PM

PappasArts

06-10-2009, 12:19 AM

Thats an awesome idea and theoretically that should work without a problem. Does the intensity do 23.98 input, I thought it only did 59.94? The matrox MXO2 and MXO2 mini should work fine though. I have an MXO2 and will definitely be trying this the moment amazon sends me my damn camera.

The GH1 like other consumer products output it's ( like the hv20 etc ) 24fps in a 1080i/60 envelope. The blackmagic card takes that 1080i/60 from camera playback and strips that 24fps out of the 1080i 3:2, then out to the desired codec and preferences you want. Just like you would capture video from the HV20.

.

plasmasmp

06-10-2009, 12:36 AM

The PS3 can output 1080p/24hz, though I'm not sure it will from files on a card. It defintely will from a bluray.

PappasArts

06-10-2009, 01:08 AM

The PS3 can output 1080p/24hz, though I'm not sure it will from files on a card. It defintely will from a bluray.

It selects output depending on the content parameters I would believe.

Side note: Some clean looking GH1 1080/24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAuO2ltKg&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvxah2_4Xw8&feature=channel

.

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 01:21 AM

Side note: Some clean looking GH1 1080/24

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAu...eature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAuO2ltKg&feature=channel)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvxah...eature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvxah2_4Xw8&feature=channel)

You see, just like I wanted to see. The pan in the first one is not a whip jerk pan. It follows the subject firmly and smoothly. To me is like kind of making the camera float and flow. You are not tearing the image by sudden movement. I am sure crane shots and tracking shots will look good as well when well executed.
It would be good to know all the camera settings used. I just had a thought before seeing this videos that the I.Exposure setting might have to do with the mud as it tries to expose properly front and back causing the image to break in the process. Who knows. Something to look into when I get the cam. Thanks for the links.

Uwe Lansing

06-10-2009, 09:18 AM

First experiences with the gh1 from a german user. Sorry, only the bad google-translation. Despite that, maybe you can understand the most:
http://www.translate.google.de/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.slashcam.de%2Fpanasonic-gh1-erfahrungen-vt71699.html&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=
http://www.vimeo.com/5073654

Edit: A small review:
http://www.translate.google.de/translate?prev=hp&hl=de&js=n&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.videoaktiv.de%2FHintergrundinfo %2FCAMCORDER_Hintergrundinfo%2FTest-Panasonic-Lumix-DMC-GH-1%2FPage-3.html&sl=de&tl=en&history_state0=

In this sentence: "He versoßt fine structures http://www.videoaktiv.de/mambots/content/glossarbot/info.gif
MPEG -Brei, MPEG-mash, but only in very specific frequencies, so that the very fine structures remain." "versoßt" means "intermeshed" and "Brei" is "mud"

commanderspike

06-10-2009, 10:06 AM

What is new?

Not a lot it seems...

Of course the GH1 is capable of good footage, and bad footage.

Posting good footage doesn't prove very much.

As far as I'm concerned, the workaround is to avoid whip pans in FHD mode and use MJPEG instead until Panasonic release a firmware update.

Daniel L.

06-10-2009, 10:09 AM

That sounds like a fair compromise. This problem can be avoided, nobody is helpless.

It may be a good idea to create a guide or something with a summery of what has been discovered in the past 82 pages. How to anticipate the problem, and how to avoid it.

Nitsuj

06-10-2009, 10:55 AM

Dear god! This horse is a zombie horse! It just keeps coming alive! Alive! Run!

Oh and I believe a summery has been twice that I know of in this thread.

I say if you are going to do some crazy whip pans then throw on some dramatic motion blur in post and make it interesting. Turn a negative into a postitive is all I'm saying.

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 11:00 AM

Posting good footage doesn't prove very much.

Well, it should, because it shows that there is a way to shoot and avoid the problem. It means that when everything is in order the camera has no problems. It should mean that there must be proper steps and settings to follow that will avoid the problem. And knowing how to set the camera for proper capturing is exactly what we need to find out. If somebody is getting it right it means that everybody else is getting it wrong, correct?

BhambuNath

06-10-2009, 11:14 AM

Hello Friends,

This and other threads/footage related to GH1 is pretty informative to know what this camera is capable of(720/50P). I was looking forward to RED Scarlet as my first real camera until I spotted the release of GH1. All I have to say is that MUD or no MUD, JELLO or no JELLO, this is the camera that is totally capable of shooting full length feature once the camera person understands it's limitations and features to use in the controlled atmosphere.

I must say that this camera is for those who are capable of shooting a movie in the controlled environment. Those who are complaining about panning stuff should remember that MJPEG can be used in those panning situations(now please do not complain about the slowdown of audio in that case [when you want to use that footage as 24P or 25P] as you will never use a talking head during the crazy panning scenes).

All I have to say is that I find this camera to be totally capable of shotting a full length movie under controlled circumstances(and you should not forget that all the movies we see are shot under controlled circumstances).

Looking forward to get my hands on it and start shooting my next movie.

Bye.

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 11:16 AM

All I have to say is that I find this camera to be totally capable of shotting a full length movie under controlled circumstances(and you should not forget that all the movies we see are shot under controlled circumstances).

Exactly.

Boz

06-10-2009, 12:54 PM

I say if you are going to do some crazy whip pans then throw on some dramatic motion blur in post and make it interesting. Turn a negative into a postitive is all I'm saying.

Yeah, watch out for crazy 'whip pans' like this one: http://www.vimeo.com/5072139 (watch the quicktime)

Sheesh, how many times do we have to say it? Even medium speed pans fall apart when shooting at 1080. The more relevant part of what Capice posted is that there are yet more & more reviews coming out that specifically point out the mud problem. This is a GOOD thing. The more attention put on the problem, the more chance Panasonic will fix it.

This thread is about the mud problem! If you don't think it's a problem, that's cool. Buy a GH1 and go shoot! Meanwhile, the rest of us will continue to make it known that we think this is a problem and that Panasonic should fix it. When they do, I will do two things: shut up about it, and go buy a GH1.

In the meantime, maybe someone should start a "reasons the GH1 is great" thread, and talk about all the good stuff. Heck I'll even pitch in about the great DOF, multiple speeds, decent low light, flip-out LCD, etc. But this thread is about mud, so that's why it continues.

The preceding rant was not directed at any one person, so please do not take it personally!

Mattykins

06-10-2009, 01:00 PM

Out of curiosity, how many of those "ranting" about the "mud" issue have actually personally physically used and tested the camera?

Or is all of this based on some youtube and vimeo "research"?

Nighthawk

06-10-2009, 01:16 PM

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 01:23 PM

Sheesh, how many times do we have to say it? Even medium speed pans fall apart when shooting at 1080.

Just like this medium pan that was correctly executed, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAu...eature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAuO2ltKg&feature=channel)

Tell the person that shot this how mud ruins the shot. We have to learn from what is well done, not from poorly or incorrectly shot stuff. Thats just using common sense.

That is why we have to admire people like Soderbergh and Rodriguez. They don't stop to complain about what's wrong but go out and find solutions. Soderbergh takes an unfinished Red One camera and makes it work despite its problems and Rodriguez takes what he can afford at the time, a 16mm, b&w film, photofloods and makes a name for himself. I bet you either one of these dudes takes a GH1 and makes it fly.

mhood

06-10-2009, 01:43 PM

As a newbie I realize this is none of my business but many of you do seem especially sensitive to discussion of problems. If it weren't for the desire of a better mouse trap, would technology ever advance at all? I was recently very moved by a youtube short shot entirely on an iPhone...artists can make art with anything.

philiplipetz

06-10-2009, 01:45 PM

AS I newbie, ex pro photographer who now needs to do a video, I wonder if the HDMI output bypasses the AVCHD encoding, so that if I use a hardware box, such as made by Maatrox, to capture and transcode to FCP formats could I avoid the mud artifacts? Obviously this would work only in realtime capture to a computer.

BhambuNath

06-10-2009, 01:47 PM

Now THAT'S a first post for you. You go BhambuNath.

Now, just waiting for it's availability in India...

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 01:52 PM

As a newbie I realize this is none of my business but many of you do seem especially sensitive to discussion of problems.

It is not the problems, is just that their might be solutions to them before jumping to a final conclusion. People are reporting the "mud" problem but at the same time we see shots like the boat ride that are perfectly executed. So what it tells us is that the person did something right in the setting and execution of the pan. Correct? So thats what we have to concentrate our efforts in, how to copy what that person did correctly and see if we are able to implement it and be successful in avoiding the problem.

AS I newbie, ex pro photographer who now needs to do a video, I wonder if the HDMI output bypasses the AVCHD encoding, so that if I use a hardware box, such as made by Maatrox, to capture and transcode to FCP formats could I avoid the mud artifacts? Obviously this would work only in realtime capture to a computer.

There is no HDMI live output. Only playback

Isaac_Brody

06-10-2009, 01:57 PM

After 83 pages we're well aware of the mud issue. It might be much more effective to send 83 pages worth of complaints here though:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Contact-Us.2

The photo division doesn't monitor these boards, or at least they haven't made their presence known so far. So you're basically ranting to a hole in the wall. Better to direct it right to the source and let this thread be about workarounds instead of hair pulling.

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 02:25 PM

After 83 pages we're well aware of the mud issue.

But that is the issue. We know that there is a "mud" issue when you yank the pan, when you do a sudden start of the cam, when you whip pan and so forth. But when you pan like the boat pan, (scene full of foliage, designs all over the side of the boat on a bright day), and it looks excellent you become aware that it can be done if you know how to EXECUTE IT PROPERLY. Once again I am sure that well executed crane pans, dolly shots, and such will be fine. Static shots we know are perfect looking. White balance, color, low light footage, absence of noise and jello and much more is fine. If you can't figure out by now that so far the pluses outnumber the minuses like 100 to 1 then you have to really look harder for another camera solution.

BTW: I forgot that you can also choose from 720p60, 720p mpeg and 1080p and also 12mp still photos!

ydgmdlu

06-10-2009, 03:01 PM

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-10-2009, 04:16 PM

The fact that posts like these still pop up occasionally indicates that we really need an FAQ, ASAP.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=174020

PappasArts

06-10-2009, 04:41 PM

Since the codec breakdown ( aka mud ) is an issue of SW than an actual hardware defect/GH1 design most likely; has anyone tried to talk with the right people at Panasonic either in the US or Japan to get answers about whether this is something that can be FW fixed?

Doesn't anyone here have good contacts at Panasonic? Not email, however person to person?

It just feels like this is a Catch 22 with this thread. We know the issue,; now lets confront the ones who have the vaccine....

.

Martti Ekstrand

06-10-2009, 04:44 PM

has anyone tried to talk with the right people at Panasonic either in the US or Japan to get answers about whether this is something that can be FW fixed?

Doesn't anyone here have good contacts at Panasonic? Not email, however person to person?

Both Phillp Bloom and Barry Green has brought this up with their connections at Panasonic.

Nitsuj

06-10-2009, 04:48 PM

Yeah, watch out for crazy 'whip pans' like this one: http://www.vimeo.com/5072139 (watch the quicktime)

Sheesh, how many times do we have to say it? Even medium speed pans fall apart when shooting at 1080.

The preceding rant was not directed at any one person, so please do not take it personally!

As an amateur filmmaker I can not see how this is even considered a good test. A serious amateur filmmaker would set up a very different test. Like I said before and many others have said, get this thing on a fluid head and plan the shots. This example looks like a home video and not a controlled shot. Every camera has limitations. A good filmmaker works around those and tells a good story. I just don't get why this clip is a good example. I have seen other correctly shot pans with no problems.

mkeep

06-10-2009, 05:35 PM

I just don't get why this clip is a good example.

Me neither. The shutter speed is way more distracting to me than any mud.

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 06:01 PM

As an amateur filmmaker I can not see how this is even considered a good test.

If you analyze the pan you can tell that is not a good pan as compared to the boat pan in the river footage that Pappas posted because he waits until the old man almost reaches the end of the frame the he whips the camera for the pan. The images breaks as it catches up then is good again. He needs to star the pan when the man is more towards the camera then continue slowly as he passes the camera and runs away. That is a more "profesional" way to pan the camera and that is the real test we need to see and determine the "mud" quantity if any in the footage.

sunburst

06-10-2009, 06:02 PM

Since the codec breakdown ( aka mud ) is an issue of SW than an actual hardware defect/GH1 design most likely;

.

the scariest post in this thread, was someone pointing out this "mud"
is warned against IN THE MANUAL.

Sounds like it's hard coded into their plan, and processor abilities.

Makes me think GH-2.

Boz

06-10-2009, 06:09 PM

Just like this medium pan that was correctly executed, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAu...eature=channel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHgAuO2ltKg&feature=channel)

Ok, seriously, look at that clip. That pan is slooow. It literally travels about 45 degrees over 10 seconds (from 0:25 to 0:35). And since we can't really see it in all that much detail (looks like half-res even in HD mode on youtube) it's hard to tell exactly what's going on.

After 83 pages we're well aware of the mud issue. It might be much more effective to send 83 pages worth of complaints here though:

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/support/Contact-Us.2

The photo division doesn't monitor these boards, or at least they haven't made their presence known so far. So you're basically ranting to a hole in the wall. Better to direct it right to the source and let this thread be about workarounds instead of hair pulling.

What a great idea! I'm going to do just that. :) (No, I'm not being sarcastic, I'm going to do exactly that as soon as I hit 'submit reply' here.)

But that is the issue. We know that there is a "mud" issue when you yank the pan, when you do a sudden start of the cam, when you whip pan and so forth.

The pan of the old guy is NOT a whip pan. It is not a yank pan. It's a medium pan. I dare say turn on any TV show or movie and you'll see pans at this speed everywhere.

But when you pan like the boat pan, (scene full of foliage, designs all over the side of the boat on a bright day), and it looks excellent you become aware that it can be done if you know how to EXECUTE IT PROPERLY. IE: very slowly. A 45 degree pan over 10 seconds is a slow pan. Even then I think I'm seeing detail loss on the side of the boat. Hard to tell though, for sure.

Once again I am sure that well executed crane pans, dolly shots, and such will be fine. Static shots we know are perfect looking. White balance, color, low light footage, absence of noise and jello and much more is fine. If you can't figure out by now that so far the pluses outnumber the minuses like 100 to 1 then you have to really look harder for another camera solution.I agree. And that's what makes the mud problem so frustrating. This camera is perfect for me with that one exception. So that's why I push so hard. We all agree it's a problem. We all agree slow pans, static shots, and shooting in 30P/60P modes are the workaround. But I don't think that should stop anyone who recognizes the problem from making themselves heard over at Panasonic.

As an amateur filmmaker I can not see how this is even considered a good test. A serious amateur filmmaker would set up a very different test. Like I said before and many others have said, get this thing on a fluid head and plan the shots. This example looks like a home video and not a controlled shot. Every camera has limitations. A good filmmaker works around those and tells a good story. I just don't get why this clip is a good example. I have seen other correctly shot pans with no problems.

Please. Just turn on your TV for 15 minutes, you'll see pans at this speed and faster all the time.

Here's a few quick examples I found:
http://www.hulu.com/watch/48323/legend-of-the-seeker-prophecydestiny#x-0,vepisode,1 - two faster pans in the first minute alone (0:27 & 0:53).

http://www.hulu.com/watch/75964/burn-notice-friends-and-family - at 1:00 and multiple shots 2:35 thru 3:00

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 06:11 PM

It clearly states in the user manual that fast movements will lead to picture break-up. So they know it's there by design.

"Fast Movements" clearly includes footage a man that is running left to right and you wait until he almost reaches the end of the frame to jerk a pan and then follow him.

The pan of the old guy is NOT a whip pan. It is not a yank pan. It's a medium pan. I dare say turn on any TV show or movie and you'll see pans at this speed everywhere.

Come on. It becomes a whip pan obviously at the 3 secs point when the old man is to reach the end of the frame and the pan is suddenly started. You need to start panning earlier and smoother and see how the codec reacts then.

Boz

06-10-2009, 06:49 PM

Did you bother to check the example clips I posted? Those pans are as fast if not faster than the 'running grandpa' clip. My point is pans like this are very common. Now what I would like to see is a faster pan shot in 60P or 30P and converted to 24P. I have my doubts as to how well that will turn out. If this thread is indeed about workarounds, that's one I would like to see. :)

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 06:59 PM

Well the fact for me is that I am not going to give up on a feature rich, big sensor, interchangeable lens, multiple formats and much more camera that costs $1500 because I can't do medium and fast pans. I'll do tracking shots, crane shots, steadicam instead if I have to. I have no problem with that. But past on a camera with which I can do music videos, commercials, web news features, interviews, documentaries with the beautiful shallow DoF for that kind of price? Forget about it. Its too many pluses and so few minuses.

Coco Bermudez

06-10-2009, 07:37 PM

I'll do tracking shots, crane shots, steadicam instead if I have to. I have no problem with that. But past on a camera with which I can do music videos, commercials, web news features, interviews, documentaries with the beautiful shallow DoF for that kind of price? Forget about it. Its too many pluses and so few minuses.

I think once you get your hands on this camera you will become incredibly dissapointed. In my case, even if I do a SLOOOOOOOOOOW pan, the MUD appears all over the screen. It is not one frame or two...in some cases, if you do a 5 second pan, I will have 5 seconds of garbage, unusable stuff. AND i am not whipping it or flinging this thing...just simple, normal speed anyday use pan!

All I am able to do it to lock down the camera and not move it...so all you have left is maybe do isome nterviews in a lock shot fashion. I do love the camera for it's "possibilities" but as it stands right now, for me personally, it is pretty much useless. That one minus overshadows all the pluses.

As I was explaining it to a colleague...the GH1 is like a beautiful sports car with all the nice features inside, great motor, leather seats, navigation, rims, etc, etc,. Put in on the road, give it gas..zoooooom it goes..BUT BEWARE..don't take a turn cause it will stall...just drive straight and steady and you will have no issues.

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 07:49 PM

Coco Bermudez

06-10-2009, 07:58 PM

Can you please do some tracking shots sideways, in and out, etc. Can you also do some crane shots: Even if you dont have a crane you can sort of simulate it handhled.

Also just curious what settings are you using. Do you use the IExposure setting? Is it off or on all the time? And are your pans autofocus or manual? Also can you try a pan where you start by pulling the camera backwords as you start the pan and then continue the pan if you have the time. I wish I had the camera already to test myself.

BTW: Other than the panning whats your opinion of the image quality.

Thanks.

We have tried it in every setting we can think of....but we will do extensive test this weekend and write down our findings...

The one thing I can tell you is that we connected the SD card to a PS3 and viewed it on a Mitsubishi 60-inch 1080p DLP HDTV...24P AVCHD simply looks awesome!

admactanium

06-10-2009, 08:13 PM

You're not getting it in MJPEG mode are you? I haven't ever seen any "mud" in that mode.

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 09:30 PM

The one thing I can tell you is that we connected the SD card to a PS3 and viewed it on a Mitsubishi 60-inch 1080p DLP HDTV...24P AVCHD simply looks awesome!

Thats good. Thanks for sharing. Its funny, I was watching an episode of Rescue Me in Hulu and there was no paning done for the whole thing, maybe a 2 seconds movement here and there. There was no paning in the commercials either. Thats why I don't care much about the 'mud" in the pans for the GH1. Oh, and not much shallow DoF in Rescue Me either.

Some crane shots and tracking shots if you can please.

Coco Bermudez

06-10-2009, 09:38 PM

You're not getting it in MJPEG mode are you? I haven't ever seen any "mud" in that mode.

We have gotten mud in MJPEG but it is almost unnoticeable...the only way we saw it is by going frame by frame...and it ONLY shows up in maybe ONE frame here and there in pans versus a series of frames in AVCHD....to the naked eye it is almost impossible to see....

Boz

06-10-2009, 10:16 PM

I think once you get your hands on this camera you will become incredibly dissapointed. In my case, even if I do a SLOOOOOOOOOOW pan, the MUD appears all over the screen. It is not one frame or two...in some cases, if you do a 5 second pan, I will have 5 seconds of garbage, unusable stuff. AND i am not whipping it or flinging this thing...just simple, normal speed anyday use pan!

Ugh, another satisfied customer. I'd love to see some samples if you can share a few.

I do love the camera for it's "possibilities" but as it stands right now, for me personally, it is pretty much useless. That one minus overshadows all the pluses.Exactly. In the end it's all about picture quality. If you can't get a decent image when panning, shooting fast motion, or high detail backgrounds, then that puts a severe limit on what you can do. Depending on your shooting style it may or may not be a deal breaker. For me it's a no go - I just don't want to be constantly worried about if my picture is breaking up every time I move the camera.

As I was explaining it to a colleague...the GH1 is like a beautiful sports car with all the nice features inside, great motor, leather seats, navigation, rims, etc, etc,. Put in on the road, give it gas..zoooooom it goes..BUT BEWARE..don't take a turn cause it will stall...just drive straight and steady and you will have no issues.Again, I say it's like the D90 - it has massive Jello, but if you super careful you can get some great stuff out of it. It's just sad that GH1 has so many great features only to be neutered by lackluster encoding at 24P.

- - -

Back to the workaround. Specifically shooting at 30/60P and converting to 24P. Everyone says that's the workaround, but I'll be damned if I can find some good examples of this online. Anyone have some good links?

admactanium

06-10-2009, 10:30 PM

We have gotten mud in MJPEG but it is almost unnoticeable...the only way we saw it is by going frame by frame...and it ONLY shows up in maybe ONE frame here and there in pans versus a series of frames in AVCHD....to the naked eye it is almost impossible to see....

I know it's odd to change formats, but can't you just shoot your pans in MJPEG 720 and your non-pan shots in 1080 AVCHD? At least for the time being there is a workaround. It's not ideal, but it's not deadly either.

Coco Bermudez

06-10-2009, 10:43 PM

Again, I say it's like the D90 - it has massive Jello, but if you super careful you can get some great stuff out of it. It's just sad that GH1 has so many great features only to be neutered by lackluster encoding at 24P.

I have a d90...today, I still will choose the d90...when it is weighted down, it produces decent images with great DOF and a nice 24P....i know that the encoding is not the best in the market, but in my opinion, I is still my weapon of choice when it comes to DSRL's. Next week I get my Canon 5d...so my opinion might change.......

John Caballero

06-10-2009, 11:15 PM

I still will choose the d90

Oh boy.

I was checking Monk and counted one 3 secs pan. Quite a few crane shots, tracking shots and some tilts. I feel good because two of my future projects are aimed at television series styles like Monk and Rescue Me. Monk is actually shot on 16mm and Rescue Me is shot in cinema video. So not any worries at all about pan and "mud" for me. Don't really need them for what I want.

Again: No pans in the commercials either.

Psynema

06-10-2009, 11:59 PM

I have a d90...today, I still will choose the d90...when it is weighted down, it produces decent images with great DOF and a nice 24P....i know that the encoding is not the best in the market, but in my opinion, I is still my weapon of choice when it comes to DSRL's. Next week I get my Canon 5d...so my opinion might change.......

Did you see the GH1 vs. d90/d5000 comparison tests though? Nikon was noticeable weaker image wise, not full HD, and no mic input :(

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVkZfUax_yI

dmoreno

06-11-2009, 12:33 AM

John Caballero

06-11-2009, 01:04 AM

Its as if all cinematography revolved around panning and all the hopes of creation with the GH1 collapsed because the "mud catastrophe" in the 1080p. And I thought the HVX 200 noise panic pandemic of couple of years ago was the most terrible event of digital cinema history. Its hilarious actually.

Coco Bermudez

06-11-2009, 01:05 AM

When I read posts like this that seem to be totally contradicting previous posts from Kholi, Phillip Bloom and others it seems to me as if people were talking about 2 different cameras.
To some the GH1 is useless even if moved slowly, to some is totally usable as long as you don´t whip pan like crazy.
I believe either some units have to be defective or someone must be doing something wrong (wrong settings???)

I can't speak for Kholi, Phillip Bloom or others..I respect their work and value their input. The only reason I bought the GH1 was because I saw one of Philip Bloom's video with the GH-1 and I thought it would be a good tool.

I have been shooting video and film since 1988 and I have worked with various formats and cameras through the years...so I know it is not user error. Could it be I have a defective camera? I really don't think so...I honestly believe that when you view clips either on vimeo or somewhere else, you miss a lot. The only way this is going to be solved and explored in full is when more users in the US or abroad start to get their hands on the GH1 and run it through the ringer.

There are so many variables to this camera and so may combinations that can make this an effective tool to use...I just have to find one. I honestly believe that if you think the camera is going to run "perfectly" out of the box, you might be in for a surprise.

I ran some preliminary test with a couple of colleagues and viewed the clips on a HD screen and we all agree that the camera is not there yet. If you can't pan right or left without getting garbage..it is of no use. I am not talking of "whipping"...just a simple pan brings all that garbage to the forefront and the backgroud.

When I first saw the original "mud" pictures I thought to myself that the picture had to be altered in Photoshop or something. i could not believe that Panasonic would put out a camera like that...but when I finally got mine, I got the same results...

So who knows. I am not ready to kick the camera to the curb...It is not my only tool in my arsenal..thank God. I will just put it to the side and wait to see when the camera starts shipping in mass and more people play with it.

dmoreno

06-11-2009, 01:13 AM

I didn´t mean to say you were doing something wrong due to lack of video recording experience and/or abilities (I'm sorry if that´s what you interpreted). I was talking about specific GH1 camera settings that might help reduce the codec break down. Some have talked about shooting in certain camera modes, some about turning off image stabilization, some about changing sharpening settings, some about an ISO "sweet spot" at 320, and the list goes on. I just wish we could start arriving to some conclusions and not just speculation... I guess that is how this works, lots of people doing their experiments and sharing their findings!

John Caballero

06-11-2009, 01:14 AM

Super8 I would like to know what do you think of the static footage. Forget about pans, of which I counted maybe one in the two tv series I mentioned before. Is the image sharp enough, are the colors good, whats your take on that. I say this because a lot of music videos by example don't have any pans, maybe crane shots and dolly shots. The same as with a lot of commercials. You can produce a lot of excellent shots to move along a story without a single left to right pan.

Car3o

06-11-2009, 01:33 AM

I can't speak for Kholi, Phillip Bloom or others..I respect their work and value their input. The only reason I bought the GH1 was because I saw one of Philip Bloom's video with the GH-1 and I thought it would be a good tool.

I have been shooting video and film since 1988 and I have worked with various formats and cameras through the years...so I know it is not user error. Could it be I have a defective camera? I really don't think so...I honestly believe that when you view clips either on vimeo or somewhere else, you miss a lot. The only way this is going to be solved and explored in full is when more users in the US or abroad start to get their hands on the GH1 and run it through the ringer.

There are so many variables to this camera and so may combinations that can make this an effective tool to use...I just have to find one. I honestly believe that if you think the camera is going to run "perfectly" out of the box, you might be in for a surprise.

I ran some preliminary test with a couple of colleagues and viewed the clips on a HD screen and we all agree that the camera is not there yet. If you can't pan right or left without getting garbage..it is of no use. I am not talking of "whipping"...just a simple pan brings all that garbage to the forefront and the backgroud.

When I first saw the original "mud" pictures I thought to myself that the picture had to be altered in Photoshop or something. i could not believe that Panasonic would put out a camera like that...but when I finally got mine, I got the same results...

So who knows. I am not ready to kick the camera to the curb...It is not my only tool in my arsenal..thank God. I will just put it to the side and wait to see when the camera starts shipping in mass and more people play with it.

want to sell it?

Coco Bermudez

06-11-2009, 01:34 AM

I didn´t mean to say you were doing something wrong due to lack of video recording experience and/or abilities (I'm sorry if that´s what you interpreted).

Don't sweat it..I knew that you meant from the get go. It is hard when you have to play around as a "workaround". It almost doesn't even seem fair to have to spend money in a product that you have to find a temporary solution. I don't care if I pay $1 or $50,000 for a camera. I want the features that were promised to work out of the box...just saying you know?

Super8 I would like to know what do you think of the static footage. Is the image sharp enough, are the colors good, whats your take on that.

Static looks good..nice colors, sharpness is good and the footage handles well when minimal CC is performed...handles much better than the d90 footage. Next week when I get the Canon I wil be able to compare both images...

John Caballero

06-11-2009, 01:41 AM

Sounds good. Thanks.

Nighthawk

06-11-2009, 08:38 AM

I apologize in advance if I'm duplicating ideas that have been presented before. Tough job following this thread. I'm also talking about more controlled work versus crazy ass whip pans and crazier bus rides.

It's not 100% but I'm noticing a commonality amongst the footage that has been analyzed for this mud problem. The troubles with the panning seem to be when starting from a relatively static or near static position as if the sensor is sitting in it's 'comfort zone'. When the pans start that's when we first notice the troubles, assuming due to the VBR. It needs a little time to catch up then, but not always, it seems to improve if not too pressured. It's like trying to start driving in 2nd gear. Doable but not the best. If we look at the boat footage that Pappas provided we can see that there is already a good deal of movement in the shot and when doing the pan of the other boat there appeared to be few problems. My guess is that the bitrate was already in the upswing making a nice smooth shot. I'm sure we all thought of that. I realize it's not practical to wave our hands in front of the lens or provide dancing girls to excite the sensor before each take but is there a way to trick the sensor to increase the VBR when we want it to not when it feels like it? The Beachteck adapter apparently sends a signal to tell the AGC to 'f' off. Is there any way to induce the Gh1's sensor to a state of higher arousal in the same manner?

commanderspike

06-11-2009, 09:51 AM

We know that there is a "mud" issue when you yank the pan, when you do a sudden start of the cam, when you whip pan and so forth. But when you pan like the boat pan, (scene full of foliage, designs all over the side of the boat on a bright day), and it looks excellent you become aware that it can be done if you know how to EXECUTE IT PROPERLY.

How many times do we have to go through this! I mean come on...

Mud happens sometimes on shots executed properly, it would even happen if Hitchcock's ghost was operating the camera.

To say it only happens on badly shot footage and whip pans is untrue.

UNTRUE

Do you hear it?? For the 200th time on the 87th page?

It happens on slow pans as well. Granted not all - but some - and some are well shot. It's a technical issue. The GH1 isn't an art lover. It doesn't hate unartistic pans and spits them out.

Just smacks of a bit of cinesnobbery... someone who hasn't got the GH1, saying that those who do have it and complain, just aren't good shooters.

Tis really annoying.

BradM

06-11-2009, 10:34 AM

The GH1 isn't an art lover. It doesn't hate unartistic pans and spits them out.

absolutely priceless...:thumbup:

EdMcLeodJones

06-11-2009, 10:35 AM

I've put a torrent with some quick test footage comparing a rough tilt and pan with different film modes and resolutions up in a thread here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=173958

John Caballero

06-11-2009, 10:47 AM

Just smacks of a bit of cinesnobbery... someone who hasn't got the GH1, saying that those who do have it and complain, just aren't good shooters.

Now the question is: Can somebody be artistic enough to put together a sequence that doesn't require a pan. Like say a sequence involving a LS, MS and CU? Mixed together with a short track shot at MS, to a LS then back to an over the shoulder CU? Then open the next scene with a crane shot, etc., etc., etc. You think as current owner something like that would work. Or it doesn't do those either?

commanderspike

06-11-2009, 10:58 AM

Now the question is: Can somebody be artistic enough to put together a sequence that doesn't require a pan. Like say a sequence involving a LS, MS and CU? Mixed together with a short track shot at MS, to a LS then back to an over the shoulder CU? Then open the next scene with a crane shot, etc., etc., etc. You think as current owner something like that would work. Or it doesn't do those either?

Whilst it would be interesting to see how the GH1 performs in such environments with professional methodology, this isn't really what this thread is about.

The thread is primarily here to raise awareness that the problem is real, and that it needs a firmware fix, not an artistic workaround.

I didn't expect to have this problem when I ordered my GH1 and likewise neither did anyone else.

We paid for a fully functional 1080 24p mode and the camera hasn't delivered.

I could go on about it being great all day long (it still is) and many of us have been wowed enough by the likes of Philip Bloom's footage and Kholi's accounts of using it for Heineken shooting to place an order, but none of this solves the rather serious codec bug.

Isaac_Brody

06-11-2009, 11:03 AM

I didn't see mud in MJPEG, just motion blur from a lower shutter speed.

John Caballero

06-11-2009, 11:18 AM

I could go on about it being great all day long (it still is) and many of us have been wowed enough by the likes of Philip Bloom's footage and Kholi's accounts of using it for Heineken shooting to place an order, but none of this solves the rather serious codec bug.

Well, I thank you for your testing. Now I am aware that I can't pan with 1080p so I will have to pan with 720p just like Kholi had suggested a month ago before these 87 pages started.

commanderspike

06-11-2009, 11:30 AM

Haha. I happy to talk 'mud' until it catches Panasonic's attention.

Barry_Green

06-11-2009, 11:39 AM

You can capture their attention by writing directly to them, as Isaac's thread shows.

stephenvv

06-11-2009, 12:06 PM

I have an offer here to buy any muddy camera, full price as I need one ASAP.

TrueIndigo

06-11-2009, 12:11 PM

Someone mentioned earlier their confusion over the extent of the mud problem (we're no longer debating its existence but the extent to which it makes this camera usable), and I am similarly confused. Towards the end Kholi seemed to accept the results of 1080p, while others have come to the conclusion it falls too far below acceptability.

If using the same ISO, shutter speed and aperture, I would like to know what differences there are between the creative movie mode and manual mode? What effect exactly does it have on the image when shooting video? Also, what is the difference between manual mode and custom mode (if you use a preset film mode or modify one as my film)? And of course, in my film what are the best options for those settings (last I heard: turn everything down).

Boz

06-11-2009, 02:11 PM

There's a couple things that irk me about this mud thing..

1. Panasonic themselves have said this camera is for high-end users:

Q: So who is the target user for this camera, as distinct from high end camcorders - and also as distinct from the target market for the G1?
A: High end camcorder users are one of the big targets. Also video journalists and maybe broadcasting companies.
(source: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09031901panasonicinterview.asp)

Yet they admit the lack of B-frames and further exacerbate the problem by not only limiting the bitrate to 17mbps but also stick the 24P into a 60i stream. Ridiculous. Seriously, who thought this was a good idea?

3. It's funny how some people here on the board are willing to completely change the way they shoot so that they can use it. That's fine, I guess, but doesn't that alone speak of a larger problem? We're coming up on 900 posts about this. There are multiple petitions, email campaigns etc. requesting a fix. What I don't get is that those who support the camera continue to make excuses for it. They too should be screaming, because the more noise we make the more chance Panasonic will fix it. EVERYONE who recognizes the problem should be emailing Panasonic. Even if they like the camera and are working around the problems for now. Get out there and shout! If we all just said "oh well" and quietly accepted and worked around the problem the chances that Pansonic would address it are virtually zero. More noise is good. Sign the petition, email, call, or write Panasonic and let them know you're unhappy. It will only increase the odds of a fix.

After having looked at Ed's footage (http://vimeo.com/5076887) and the stuff shot by Phil Bloom I'm becoming more and more convinced that the mud problem is really exclusive to the 24P@60i footage found in the American and Japanese models. I consistently see clean footage out of the 25P European models. If there wasn't such a price hit, I'd probably just order one of those and be done with it.

Getting to the supposed workaround of shooting 30P/60P for moving shots. So far my tests have been less than successful. I've worked with After Effects Timewarp, Revision's Twixtor, and Foundry's Kronos plugins. Most of the results have been bad. When there is rapid movement, these plugins get confused and fail, resulting in weirdly distorted imagery. If you're feeling bold try to convert the 60P footage of the dog catching the frisbee found here: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DMCGH1/DMCGH1VIDEO.HTM. I guarantee you'll be shocked at the results. If you try the drop frame approach on that footage it looks weirdly stuttery. I've also tried working with some footage shot from a train - same results. So, what I'm saying is the supposed workaround doesn't work. Yet another reason to nip at Panasonic until they fix the 24P problem.

Sorry if this comes off as preachy, it's not meant to be.

Martti Ekstrand

06-11-2009, 03:12 PM

That infamous dog footage is done with way too short shutter speed to be re-timed without problems. I don't understand how one can shoot with a camera using interframe compression on such short shutter and then get surprised that the codec breaks. Is Imaging-Resources really a pro-site?

In fact I'm more irked from getting my eyes grated by all clips showing up with short shutter speeds causing excessive strobe motion than I am of the 'mud' flaw. Pretty please with sugar on top and cream in the bottom, learn to use Neutral Density filters folks and get that shutter running at 1/50 or 60 even when shooting outdoors in daylight.

T I consistently see clean footage out of the 25P European models. If there wasn't such a price hit, I'd probably just order one of those and be done with it.
No no, get the Hong Kong PAL model, better price and no 30 minute recording limit IIRC.

(Side note: Shooting 25 for 24 is a very common practice here in Europe, especially on features with full or part financing from TV stations. Doubt there's anybody on the entire planet that can perceive the 6% slow-down and nowadays it's easier than ever keeping the sound in sync without pitch shift.)

Boz

06-11-2009, 03:33 PM

No no, get the Hong Kong PAL model, better price and no 30 minute recording limit IIRC.

Intriguing... anyone got a link to a Hong Kong source?

John Caballero

06-11-2009, 04:37 PM

As posted by Illya Friedman

FWIW, I just watched a bunch of hand held dailies from the GH1--- no mud. In fact, it looks fantastic. I think I've finally nailed the native ASA of the camera. I'll blog about it more later.

All right!

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-11-2009, 11:45 PM

COMING SOON TO A THREAD NEAR YOU:

http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561366506_JrtPj-L.jpg___ http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367015_cSbSt-L.jpg
_____________GH1, D90, HMC150_________________________________"It's alive!"

http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367898_cHg4Y-XL.jpg
______DREW OTT_______________JACK DANIEL STANLEY___________LUIS CAFFESSE___________________BRANDON BOGGS

http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367049_TrLVz-S.jpg___http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367878_aimrc-S.jpg
______________"What the heck?"
http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367144_eFKwq-M.jpg___http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561368132_RAzLz-M.jpg

Photos: H. Cherdon Bedford
Gallery of Test Shoot (LINK (http://humblebee.smugmug.com/gallery/8527316_rq2TF/1/561368132_RAzLz#P-1-20))

dmoreno

06-12-2009, 12:23 AM

I wanna watch this more than the new Harry Potter!!! Shot in tru- 4D!! hehe

timbook2

06-12-2009, 12:25 AM

Oh No! 3 serious pixelpeepers and a dog.....I would like to know the opinion of the dog please :Drogar-Love(DBG):

Barry_Green

06-12-2009, 03:41 AM

Luis, you KNOW everyone thought you were the guy on the right, right? :evil:

squig

06-12-2009, 07:20 AM

Intriguing... anyone got a link to a Hong Kong source?

http://www.fortress.com.hk/fortress/jsp/sys/Sf_render.jsp?hf_s_id=FT11&hf_srv_id=Pv_fpdt_dtl&hf_rand=1116889046&hs_from_srv_id=Pv_fpdt_list&hs_srch_keywd=&hs_pdt_id=APSNDMCGH1
http://www.yp.com.hk/photoscientific/
http://www.ygdragon.net/index.php?page=photo/cameraprice.htm
http://www.tvxb.com/billd/HK/HK%20shopping-cameras.html

a fellow dvxuser got one from here- http://www.hiphongkong.com/splurge/shopping/electronics/mirama_photo_supplies_stanley_street_hong_kong I have the phone number but never pulled the trigger.

snicky

06-12-2009, 09:09 AM

Ehmp... so the 25p/50p models dont generate any mud?

Abstract Photog

06-12-2009, 09:46 AM

Ehmp... so the 25p/50p models dont generate any mud?

No, there is just no pull down removal for PAL models.
they can get just as muddy as the NTSC cameras.

AdrianF

06-12-2009, 11:36 AM

http://www.fortress.com.hk/fortress/..._id=APSNDMCGH1
http://www.yp.com.hk/photoscientific/
http://www.ygdragon.net/index.php?pa...ameraprice.htm
http://www.tvxb.com/billd/HK/HK%20shopping-cameras.html

a fellow dvxuser got one from here- http://www.hiphongkong.com/splurge/s...reet_hong_kong I have the phone number but never pulled the trigger.

Cheers,
I,m hoping to get mine in the UK end of next week. If that doesn't work out I might give one of these a go. The price looks good if not grey market.

Did you pull any trigger yet?:beer:

Boz

06-12-2009, 12:05 PM

COMING SOON TO A THREAD NEAR YOU:

GH1, D90, HMC150

Whoa, that looks like a heck of a shootout. I can't wait. TIA for putting that together.

snicky

06-12-2009, 12:10 PM

No, there is just no pull down removal for PAL models.
they can get just as muddy as the NTSC cameras.

So, if I have to pull down, my footage will be more likely to get muddy? Sorry guys, but Im new to camcorders. I dont know if I should choose PAL or NTSC version (I want to shoot for internet and divx only) The question is important, because the difference between the prices is quite big for me. About 300$... 39,990 TWD for japanse NTSC ver in Taiwan (~4000PLN) and 12,990 HKD or more for PAL ver in HK/Europe (~5000-5300PLN) :(

Mike@AF

06-12-2009, 12:55 PM

Whoa, that looks like a heck of a shootout. I can't wait. TIA for putting that together.

Yes, thanks very much! I'm holding off ordering until I see the results of the shootout/test. Still going to take pictures of a bunch of gear I would be selling just in case. I'm hopeful.

Jim Klatt

06-12-2009, 01:12 PM

Jack, you should run a low-light test as well.

Nitsuj

06-12-2009, 01:55 PM

COMING SOON TO A THREAD NEAR YOU:

This just got a lot more interesting.

John Caballero

06-12-2009, 03:37 PM

Illya Friedman, any news?

Uwe Lansing

06-14-2009, 10:13 AM

I downscaled a 1080p25 clip to 1280x720p in a pp CS4 avchd-project 720p50. Both clips were taken at the same time with a medium-speed pan:

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/5151/comparison1080resize720.jpg (http://img4.imageshack.us/i/comparison1080resize720.jpg/)

Make your own decision which is better. I get the impression that the pal-version maybe suffers less from mud than the ntsc-model - but that´s only a guess.

Sip-slowly

06-14-2009, 11:42 PM

Just a thot! Has anyone tried panning tests with the b/w modes yet?
Don't know if there should be any difference - but wondering if possibly b/w mode could be less taxing on the GH-1's data transfer rate - assuming of course that b/w contains a 'less complex' data in the first place. :huh:

commanderspike

06-15-2009, 12:04 AM

Those shots above illustrates why I want the 1080p fixed so badly. 24p FHD mode keeps so much more detail. 720p chucks a lot away.

But yeah, you did well to get away without any mud on the above pan. Lot's of fine detail, fast shutter speed, bright light.

On a more positive note...

I have some nicely shot 1080p footage to post soon, which demonstrates great low light ability & amazing dynamic range... very DLSR like...

I feel I have been chief doom monger of the mud issue for too long now and it's time to get on with using the camera... it holds up great now I'm aware of what shots to avoid.

John Caballero

06-15-2009, 01:17 AM

Sounds good commanderspike. I am going nuts waiting for mine!

sdhurley

06-15-2009, 02:56 PM

I keep looking for some feedback from this test.!?

Any word?

COMING SOON TO A THREAD NEAR YOU:

http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561366506_JrtPj-L.jpg___ http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367015_cSbSt-L.jpg
_____________GH1, D90, HMC150_________________________________"It's alive!"

http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367898_cHg4Y-XL.jpg
______DREW OTT_______________JACK DANIEL STANLEY___________LUIS CAFFESSE___________________BRANDON BOGGS

http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367049_TrLVz-S.jpg___http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367878_aimrc-S.jpg
______________"What the heck?"
http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561367144_eFKwq-M.jpg___http://humblebee.smugmug.com/photos/561368132_RAzLz-M.jpg

Photos: H. Cherdon Bedford
Gallery of Test Shoot (LINK (http://humblebee.smugmug.com/gallery/8527316_rq2TF/1/561368132_RAzLz#P-1-20))

Dalton Boettcher

06-15-2009, 03:28 PM

Yeah JDS, I'd like to think I'm waiting patiently. (refreshes homepage....) :)

nathankw

06-16-2009, 03:45 AM

I've done some test shots specifically on the mud pan issue.
Original files here: (also posted in the gallery forum)
http://www.4shared.com/dir/16669622/d3a8031e/GH1.htm (http://www.4shared.com/dir/16669622/d3a8031e/GH1.htm)

3 similar shots - all hand held: a hold, slow pan, fast pan and whip pan.

Personally I was pleasantly surprised - even the 1080 looks ok to me if you watch it on the run. Be interested to hear what people think.

This is a pal model by the way so its 1080/25p, 720/50p and 720/30p Mjpeg
l

commanderspike

06-16-2009, 05:13 AM

Finally got my first proper footage online.

Low light stuff, at a night market http://www.vimeo.com/5179973

All in full HD mode. Enjoy!

Uwe Lansing

06-16-2009, 05:50 AM

Well done Andrew. So what´s your recommendation in case of underexposure - how many steps could be good to avoid mud in 1080p?

Uwe Lansing

06-16-2009, 06:45 AM

...
Original files here: (also posted in the gallery forum)
http://www.4shared.com/dir/16669622/d3a8031e/GH1.htm (http://www.4shared.com/dir/16669622/d3a8031e/GH1.htm)
... even the 1080 looks ok to me...
l

720p50 looks fine but 1080p25 is pretty awful during the pan imo. Besides that there is a lot of aliasing in fhd.

AdrianF

06-16-2009, 07:34 AM

Original files here: (also posted in the gallery forum)
http://www.4shared.com/dir/16669622/d3a8031e/GH1.htm
Thanks for posting. The 72050p looked perfectly usable to me, like Capice said. Had a play with the m/p jpeg and that held up pretty well too, looks fine. It's been mentioned earlier, that there really is no replacement for testing, but getting this footage before having the camera has certainly helped get some understanding of it's capabilities.

Kholi

06-16-2009, 10:56 AM

Good work, Andrew. Honestly, that doesn't look underexposed to me. That looks properly exposed. Nothing's clipping that shouldn't be at any given time, skin tones are properly exposed, etc etc.

And that might completely explain why the Heineken footage came out so extra clean, because the DP was exposing exactly how he should be.

Looking forward to more footage being exposed properly, but nothing will change my mind on takin' order of my two GH-1's. I miss this camera so much it's depressing.

Boz

06-16-2009, 11:18 AM

Kholi

06-16-2009, 11:26 AM

Hey Kholi, glad to have you back. Speaking of clean footage, the few frames of your action short looked pretty darn clean as well. What's the status on that and your other short (talking heads scene?). I'm sure I'm not alone in saying that we'd love to see those.

Had to switch over computing situations but I'm still on it. It's silly that it's taken SO damned long but I'll get all three examples up REALLY soon.

There's some Music Video footage, some Narrative footage and the Action Footage.

Boz

06-16-2009, 11:47 AM

No worries. Definitely looking forward to it. :)

TrueIndigo

06-16-2009, 11:50 AM

Welcome back Kholi; look forward to seeing your tests. Can you tell us about your conclusions yet?

Kholi

06-16-2009, 12:40 PM

I just couldnt' find as much mud in my own footage as everyone else had. I did at first, but then it like... vanished or something? It was weird because I saw it al the time when I first got the camera, then didn't see it anymore when I started shooting tests with it. The Thrift store footage has what I'd consider overexposed shots, it was all 1080/24, but mud wasn't something I was seeing.

I could go and scrub the entire thing for muddy frames in the raw but I just wasn't seeing it on my end in those situations. However, the best shots that I ever got out of the camera were exposed properly ( go figure) which right now people are terming underexposing. I just see it as proper exposure myself.

In the end, I love this camera to death and I wish I hadn't gotten rid of my .JP one to make way for the US models.

dmoreno

06-16-2009, 10:27 PM

Finally got my first proper footage online.

Low light stuff, at a night market http://www.vimeo.com/5179973

All in full HD mode. Enjoy!

Nice footage! Commanderspike, at the beginning of this thread you were obviously really bothered by the mud issue (that's why you started it). What are your impressions after playing with the GH1 more deeply. Does it still bother you so much? Would you recommend buying it? Any other comment/ conclusion after some experimenting?

commanderspike

06-17-2009, 12:06 AM

Nice footage! Commanderspike, at the beginning of this thread you were obviously really bothered by the mud issue (that's why you started it). What are your impressions after playing with the GH1 more deeply. Does it still bother you so much? Would you recommend buying it? Any other comment/ conclusion after some experimenting?

I would recommend buying it, for sure.

There are tons of possibilities, tons of potential for nice footage without the 'mud' appearing. It really is a fantastic game changing camera and ENJOYABLE to use.

Whilst making the market video, not one frame was affected by corruption. I am impressed that the camera holds up so well for proper shooting.

BUT I am still wary of the problem and still hope it gets fixed, because the market footage was done at night, and was nearly all static.

No panning, no daylight, no fast shutter = no mud.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-17-2009, 12:30 AM

I wanna watch this more than the new Harry Potter!!! Shot in tru- 4D!! hehe

Oh No! 3 serious pixelpeepers and a dog.....I would like to know the opinion of the dog please :Drogar-Love(DBG):

Whoa, that looks like a heck of a shootout. I can't wait. TIA for putting that together.

This just got a lot more interesting.

I keep looking for some feedback from this test.!?

Any word?

Yeah JDS, I'd like to think I'm waiting patiently. (refreshes homepage....) :)

Hey guys it will be a while for the test footage.
Had a HELL of a time with post - my introduction to AVCHD over the weekend / the software I was using was to do my conversions was sooo buggy. As a result, behind on my sequence of tests I'm putting this thing through and have had to move on from the shootout to field testing.

So basically, I've shot and am editing the following, which is more fun than a test....

This is 108024 AVCHD, 720 60 AVCHD and and 720 30 MJPEG all conformed to 24p. All with the kit lens.

We made the mistake of shooting with a shutter speed of 1/50th on our 60p footage (shooting below 60 forces the camera into a hack where it drops the frame rate and maybe loses resoultion) It would look even better with a shutter of 60 for the 60p stuff I think.

Footage is lightly graded. Just hit auto levels on 3 Way Color Corrector basically. Exception would be wide shot of the kids through the fence where I used Colorista to bring up their exposure in that area of the frame only.

Not loving the web compression. Original looks better of course.

PART 1 ROUGH:
7a9fd3bb1b1ae6c6f5

Credits and Part 2, etc. to follow.

Kholi

06-17-2009, 12:30 AM

More daylight tests needed, but everyone comes to the same conclusion after using it. Just get to know the camera, yeah?

I'm having withdrawls without the GH-1 to be honest. I just can't believe the camera body, lens, battery, AC adapter (invaluable) ONLY costs 1500 for what you get.

Damned-near insane. I want it back. =( I hate waiting for US shipments. Now I feel the pain of everyone else.

John Caballero

06-17-2009, 12:51 AM

Orchidthief

06-17-2009, 02:03 AM

That's messed up man! It looks so cool! You are the man JDS. Movement, grading, action, colorista, gun shots and a machete! This cam is gonna be awesome. Kholi, I think a support group should be started to deal with all the mad symptons of waiting and waiting and waiting. It's like waterboarding.

I agree with the support system...haha. I'm dying to get my hand on this thing. Seeing footage day to day just makes drool even more for it. Like Kholi said, it's hard to fathom the idea of what we're getting for the price of $1500.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-17-2009, 08:51 AM

FYI, replaced above video with better web encoding (upped the settings to 60000mbs, key frame very 24, frame controls all set to best in Compressor.)

Ken7

06-17-2009, 09:10 AM

I would recommend buying it, for sure.

There are tons of possibilities, tons of potential for nice footage without the 'mud' appearing. It really is a fantastic game changing camera and ENJOYABLE to use.

Whilst making the market video, not one frame was affected by corruption. I am impressed that the camera holds up so well for proper shooting.

BUT I am still wary of the problem and still hope it gets fixed, because the market footage was done at night, and was nearly all static.

No panning, no daylight, no fast shutter = no mud.

It's interesting that your night footage had none of the vertical striping I've seen a few others complain about in low light. Perhaps the light was still too great to see this issue?

Nitsuj

06-17-2009, 10:00 AM

Jack Daniel Stanley - I wish I had an actor that looked like that around. He reminds me of Danny Trejo in a way. He is a keeper dood. hehe. I'm just jealous of the talent you got handy.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-17-2009, 10:12 AM

Jack Daniel Stanley - I wish I had an actor that looked like that around. He reminds me of Danny Trejo in a way. He is a keeper dood. hehe. I'm just jealous of the talent you got handy.
His name's Louis Gutierrez and he's Trejo's stunt double.
I go to an Austin Film Meetup group every Monday.
I stood up for three weeks saying I was looking for a "crazy stuntman" that would collaborate on a piece to showcase himself and test the GH1.
The 4th week Louis called me.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3557591978_c7176dd0bb.jpg?v=0

Nitsuj

06-17-2009, 10:19 AM

Well holy $%#$ no wonder. Haha... you lucked out my friend. I gotta get in on those meetings. Guess I'll have to move. Nice land my man.

Martti Ekstrand

06-17-2009, 11:04 AM

I would recommend buying it, for sure.

There are tons of possibilities, tons of potential for nice footage without the 'mud' appearing. It really is a fantastic game changing camera and ENJOYABLE to use.

Whilst making the market video, not one frame was affected by corruption. I am impressed that the camera holds up so well for proper shooting.

It's good that you say this so clearly after going on about the 'mud' like a one-string banjo. Have a look at this comment from a thread elsewhere on this board.

and the jello? All who are complaining that, have never seen a panning shot with the GH-1. Its terrible full of artifacts. What I have seen, is finally useless for professional work.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1664677&postcount=52

The market video is a nice little piece, good mood and SUPERTRAMP ferchrissakes! One of the guilty pleasures from my youth :thumbup:

John Caballero

06-17-2009, 11:08 AM

FYI, replaced above video with better web encoding (upped the settings to 60000mbs, key frame very 24, frame controls all set to best in Compressor.)

Watched it again and it looks even better! Great test. Would you tell us where in the sequence is each format? Thanks for the piece, it starts showing how the camera + talent can work wonders.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-17-2009, 11:13 AM

Yes, the next "part" I put up will be followed by same footage with no CC at all and labelled with whatever I've written down / can remember / or can deduce about how it was shot.

The point of this field test BTW was to take the mud head on rather than run from it. The shoot was kind of halfway between just for fun and lets make a real finished product. In otherwords $10 was spent on it in total for two stunt machetes. If it came out great - cool. If mud killed us then lesson learned.

So far it's somewhere in between. Coming out very good and watchable with a few lessons learned on what not to do for next time. But all with work arounds to shoot anything you want with this camera.

Boz

06-17-2009, 11:25 AM

Great test, Jack! The footage looks really good. So, if I am to understand you correctly, you shot this test using all three formats? Can you go into your workflow a bit? I'm assuming you conformed the whole thing to 24P in the end, but I'd love to know the process of how you got there. Looking forward to part II!

Car3o

06-17-2009, 11:30 AM

where do you get your sound fx from?

EdMcLeodJones

06-17-2009, 02:44 PM

Very inspiring! Really great to see some action shots. Looking forward to seeing the next part!

GMC

06-17-2009, 03:19 PM

Back to the "mud" issue. I've used my GH1 (NTSC model) for more than a week, always in creative movie mode, shot more than 2 hours handheld. I've watched it more than 5 times now, on my big plasma with HDMI direct play back by the camera and also on the computer, "pixel peeping" frames.

I cannot see any evidence of what commanderspike observed initially, leading me to believe he has got a faulty model.

But what is definitely happening is that obviously below a certain contrast level the AVCHD codec dumps details. On higher contrasts, everything is razor sharp, also in the presence of movement. Hence, trees and grass could be a bit problematic.

best regards, Gunther

All in all a remarkable tool, unbelievable what Panasonic put together. Going to sell my XM2 now.

John Caballero

06-17-2009, 03:50 PM

But what is definitely happening is that obviously below a certain contrast level the AVCHD codec dumps details. On higher contrasts, everything is razor sharp, also in the presence of movement. Hence, trees and grass could be a bit problematic.

I am glad you are having a positive time with the camera. I don't have one yet but I am curious about any settings that would give more contrast to a low contrast subjects and environment as you capture. Did you post anything on Vimeo yet?

PappasArts

06-17-2009, 06:01 PM

Hey guys it will be a while for the test footage.
Had a HELL of a time with post - my introduction to AVCHD over the weekend / the software I was using was to do my conversions was sooo buggy. As a result, behind on my sequence of tests I'm putting this thing through and have had to move on from the shootout to field testing.

So basically, I've shot and am editing the following, which is more fun than a test....

This is 108024 AVCHD, 720 60 AVCHD and and 720 30 MJPEG all conformed to 24p. All with the kit lens.

We made the mistake of shooting with a shutter speed of 1/50th on our 60p footage (shooting below 60 forces the camera into a hack where it drops the frame rate and maybe loses resoultion) It would look even better with a shutter of 60 for the 60p stuff I think.

Footage is lightly graded. Just hit auto levels on 3 Way Color Corrector basically. Exception would be wide shot of the kids through the fence where I used Colorista to bring up their exposure in that area of the frame only.

Not loving the web compression. Original looks better of course.

PART 1 ROUGH:
7a9fd3bb1b1ae6c6f5

Credits and Part 2, etc. to follow.

Nice clip.. That dude and sure put on the mean bastard look; you wouldn't want running after you!

Is there a Vimeo or a 1080P to download? The problem with these small windowed embedded clips on any test, even a Hi-8 camcorder looks good from the down sample!

.

squig

06-17-2009, 09:16 PM

Kholi

06-17-2009, 10:04 PM

lol so that's why you're so grumpy....welcome to my world. I'm still waiting for some decent adapters for the MKII to arrive. :-Cry(DBG):

Don't mistake Grumpy for "Annoyed by [some] MKii owners". They're completely different.

On the contrary, I'm quiet stoked these days.

squig

06-17-2009, 10:10 PM

Don't mistake Grumpy for "Annoyed by [some] MKii owners". They're completely different.

On the contrary, I'm quiet stoked these days.

good to hear :beer:

AdrianF

06-18-2009, 03:08 AM

Jack, this is looking good, I'd love to see a couple of shots on Vimeo/QT download too if you get the chance.

GMC

06-18-2009, 08:29 AM

Dear John,

Contrast / sharpness settings of the camera don't affect the "losing detail" issue.
Unfortunately, as said elsewhere in this forum the bitrate is variable, leading to lower bitrates in static shots and higher bitrates on shots with more movement. Hence, the reserves in bitrate in static shots are not used for higher detail in low contrast parts of the image. For me no big issue - the loss of detail still is on par to the detail level of the overall picture of standard DV. Which was great for all of us just a few years ago. We just notice it now because the overall picture quality of the GH1 is so impressive.

I didn't post any GH1 stuff yet on Vimeo because I still struggle with the workflow. I am using PPro CS3 which doesn't support AVCHD, hence I need an intermediate codec which removes pulldown as well. I' ll probably try neoscene next.

best regards, Gunther

John Caballero

06-18-2009, 08:47 AM

Thanks Gunther. I am so frustrated I don't have one yet. New workflows are so frustrating, I remember my first days with the HVX and P2. Good luck.

Coco Bermudez

06-20-2009, 10:07 AM

Barry_Green

06-20-2009, 12:01 PM

FHD = long-GOP. The MJPG option = intraframe. Mud is only possible in long-GOP. Try out the 720/30p mode and see what you think.

Mike@AF

06-20-2009, 01:25 PM

I am finally getting to reading the manual...I noticed on page 105 there is a one line sentence that reads:

"When recording fast-moving subjects in the FHD setting, some afterimages or distortion may be particularly noticeable during playback."

Could this be the issue? Maybe it is an issue with only the FHD setting. All my AVCHD shooting has been in this mode...and all the mud had shown while shooting with FHD...I guess I have to test the other AVCHD modes to compare...

I believe someone else mentioned this is one of the previous 934 posts in this thread. It's clear you just need to be aware of the camera's limitations and compensate for them, whether it's changing the shot or changing the mode of the camera, or even some other solution.

Late

06-22-2009, 12:06 AM

Panasonic released a firmware update today.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0906/09062201panagh1g1hd14mn140mmupdate.asp

"June 22, 2009: A new firmware is released for Panasonic (http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/index_GB/index.html) LUMIX G Micro System cameras and a lens. The firmware Version 1.1 for DMC-GH1 allows faster burst shooting and improves control of shutter speed and stability of AF in movie recording. It also enhances performance and compatibility of the camera in other points."

I guess the "It also enhances performance and compatibility of the camera in other points" part could mean improvements in the codec, but it's hard to tell.

Mike@AF

06-22-2009, 01:11 AM

So they'll clearly be doing things to improve the camera. Let the flood of orders begin.

Boz

06-22-2009, 12:34 PM

They won't get my money until there's a confirmed fix for these problems. In the meantime, I wait and hope for the best.

Car3o

06-22-2009, 12:43 PM

someone with a japanese model see if you can get english menus after this.

Tim Joy

06-22-2009, 01:12 PM

OK, so I've used the cam for a few hours now, and played the footage back on a big SD TV, and the mud is there, but most of the time it doesn't seem bad at all. I can definitely MAKE it happen easy enough, but it also seems relatively easy to avoid, and I was shooting outside with lots of leaves, wind and grass.

There was a couple times, however, that the mud just popped in, as in, BAM, a little splash of mud, then clean, almost like I surprised the processor.

I thought it was worse if I shot in Smooth mode with saturation turned down. If I was in Vivid, or Dynamic, with the Sat UP, it seemed better. I found similar 'high saturation' settings on the D90 to be better throughout the overall workflow, and it's easy to desaturate in post if that's your flavor, but if I shot too desaturated I always found myself pushing it in post and it became a soupy mess.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-22-2009, 01:49 PM

Interesting - this is opposite of my findings - initial thought they may be. I shot with smooth mode with contrast and sharpness turned all the way down and that seemed to help. Though that may not be what was solving the mud for me - may have been the accidental hack to 30p in 60p because I shot at 1/50th shutter by mistake.

Ian-T

06-22-2009, 01:52 PM

...but if I shot too desaturated I always found myself pushing it in post and it became a soupy mess.I know what you mean. This is how I shoot now with my HV20. Desaturation in post is much much easier than trying to crank it.

Jack Daniel Stanley

06-22-2009, 01:56 PM

When I was shooting with my DVX I cranked the saturation a bit for color grading / to desat in post, but with the HVX/HPX'es I found the most neutral settings the best for grading - of course that all has a lot to do with the relative colorpsace of the afformentioned cams.

Sounds like with AVCHD a bit of saturation may cram some more color info in there to play with (even if it's faux color) like it did with my DVX.

My goal with the GH1 in picking Smooth Mode and desating in cam was not for post workflow, but and attempt to make it as easy on the codec as possible.

Revsta

10-10-2009, 05:42 PM

At 1/60th I see zero mud.

Car3o

10-10-2009, 11:47 PM

1080 or 720?

BhambuNath

10-11-2009, 12:24 AM

Few weeks ago I shot about 40 minutes of hand held footage and accidentally I was in 1080P mode for first 25 minutes or so while I thought I was shooting 720P. Later when I found out about it I changed to 720P mode and thought that lot's of footage in 1080P might be ruined due to what I've read on the forums and never before I've shot 1080P.

To my surprise when I edited the footage I did not see any mud at all(maybe once when I left the camera rolling accidentally and was walking fast while pointing it here and there). I mostly shot at the shutter speed of 1/50.

If you use the camera like it should be used, you should not be worried much about the mud.

John Caballero

10-11-2009, 12:42 AM

If you use the camera like it should be used, you should not be worried much about the mud.

Exactly. Only those than don't use it properly constantly complain about the "mud problem". I keep saying it, if you know how to shoot well you will have absolutely no problem with 1080p.

commanderspike

10-11-2009, 05:17 AM

Exactly. Only those than don't use it properly constantly complain about the "mud problem". I keep saying it, if you know how to shoot well you will have absolutely no problem with 1080p.

Simply not true John.

It does bite the pros, it does bite good shots. It doesn't have an inbuilt sensor for how nice your shots look. I find these kind of comments idiotic. It's a valid problem, like blue-shift, like compression, like moire, like aliasing, like banding, like jello, like all the other little things we have to put up with on this 1st generation of camera. There is no harm in mulling such things over until the big man in the sky fixes them for the next gen but I do agree with you on one point and one point only, that it's important to work around these the best you can and to only shoot nice looking footage with all the massive benefits an interchangeable lens camera like the GH1 gives you. But often that will not be enough to avoid the odd hiccup.

Car3o

10-11-2009, 10:50 AM

Simply not true John.

It does bite the pros, it does bite good shots. It doesn't have an inbuilt sensor for how nice your shots look. I find these kind of comments idiotic. It's a valid problem, like blue-shift, like compression, like moire, like aliasing, like banding, like jello, like all the other little things we have to put up with on this 1st generation of camera. There is no harm in mulling such things over until the big man in the sky fixes them for the next gen but I do agree with you on one point and one point only, that it's important to work around these the best you can and to only shoot nice looking footage with all the massive benefits an interchangeable lens camera like the GH1 gives you. But often that will not be enough to avoid the odd hiccup.

i didn't see him mention pro's in his comment. but in actuality, you can use a red one improper and yield bad results.

BhambuNath

10-11-2009, 11:11 AM

Simply not true John.

It does bite the pros, it does bite good shots. It doesn't have an inbuilt sensor for how nice your shots look. I find these kind of comments idiotic. It's a valid problem, like blue-shift, like compression, like moire, like aliasing, like banding, like jello, like all the other little things we have to put up with on this 1st generation of camera. There is no harm in mulling such things over until the big man in the sky fixes them for the next gen but I do agree with you on one point and one point only, that it's important to work around these the best you can and to only shoot nice looking footage with all the massive benefits an interchangeable lens camera like the GH1 gives you. But often that will not be enough to avoid the odd hiccup.

Exactly for what I have highlighted in your post - first generation of camera we have to put up with.

Tell me another 1500$ camera that does the same.

The most prominent issue I agree with is the BLUE SHIFT.

The MUD is in the hands of person who uses it as it is him who has to decide how fast he has to pan.

Anyway, when you pan fast how much details do you expect your audience to see in the 2 second pan in a 10 minute scene?

BhambuNath

10-11-2009, 11:16 AM

that we have to give Panasonic thanks for bringing out. A camera that if used correctly, despite its limitations, will yield very beautiful results at 1080p.

Actually I would like to thank RED.

Without them it would not be possible as these companies would've kept giving us what they have been giving us in the last few years - DVX 100 and XL with very little improvements for the same price.

John Caballero

10-11-2009, 11:21 AM

Actually I would like to thank RED.

Yes indeed. Thanks Red. Can you please hurry with the Scarlet?

BhambuNath

10-11-2009, 11:27 AM

Yes indeed. Thanks Red. Can you please hurry with the Scarlet?

Exactly, that will sure make them come out with something even better to compete with Scarlet.

I was waiting for scarlet and panasonic came out with GH1.

Ben_B

10-11-2009, 01:38 PM

I think that video was a good example of mud that I didn't notice until I was looking for it because the thing was well shot and composed and I was focusing on the scene elements that mattered (the hotness). I liked that video...it worked fine despite mud because it was a GOOD VIDEO.

commanderspike

10-11-2009, 01:39 PM

Exactly for what I have highlighted in your post - first generation of camera we have to put up with.

Tell me another 1500$ camera that does the same.

The most prominent issue I agree with is the BLUE SHIFT.

The MUD is in the hands of person who uses it as it is him who has to decide how fast he has to pan.

Anyway, when you pan fast how much details do you expect your audience to see in the 2 second pan in a 10 minute scene?

Okay agree but would like to clarify one point of yours. The mud does occur on pans of course but it also occurs on any camera movement where there is enough detail to cause mud. You don't have to move the camera jerkily or fast to invoke it on certain scenes. You can have your camera floating slowly on a steadicam and it may still occur if you have a lot of find detail and shoot with a deep DOF in bright light with the kit lens.

Deep DOF = more detail, through a greater depth of field.
Kit lens = more processing required for lens distortion & CA adjustment, less horse power left over to do the codec work so bitrate is adjusted accordingly to avoid dropped frames (thanks to Philip for that theory).
Bright light = you may use a higher frame rate and a deeper DOF unless you use a ND filter / vari ND. A higher frame rate improves AF tracking but encourages mud to occur because there is less detail smudged out by motion blur.

That's the All You Want To Know About: Mud book done. Will have it on sale by Christmas :happy:

commanderspike

10-11-2009, 01:46 PM

Especially when whipping the GH1 uncontrollably y in the bushes.

View the 'crap' video here :) And tell me what part of the video John is referring to where I whip pan uncontrollably.

6525278

The GH1 is capable of great picture quality, a few annoyances aside.

The camera was on this:

http://www.b-hague.co.uk/hague_mini_motion_cam_steadicam_type_camcorder_sta bilizer.htm

It floats great on that thing, the only problem is when wind blows it sideways. The camera rotates.

Might get a bigger version of that steadicam for the 5D as that's a LOT heavier and needs to be balanced quite differently.

If you put the GH1 on a steadicam like that be careful not to rotate the zoom barrel of the kit lens whilst the camera is fixed to the fixing plate as it stretches the rubber of the lens grip, which then comes loose.