Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update

[Barry_Green]

Barry, you specifically said that Panasonic just couldn't give a better image for the money. I simply pointed out that that cannot possibly be the case, because sub $200 pocket cams have better codecs.
Yes, and sub $200 pocket cams have tiny little fixed-focus lenses and everything else that goes with it. Stuff costs money. Processors cost money. Speed costs money. they spent money on the sensor which is, at rough calculation, sixty times bigger than the sensor in the pocketcam. It has a physical shutter and a flash and automatic face recognition and face tracking and hundreds, if not thousands, of things that the pocket cam doesn't have.

So yeah, at the price point, something had to be cut. Unfortunately for us, it looks like it's the 1080/24p codec processing.


It seems to me that it is either Panasonic being lazy, stupid, or protecting their professional video lineup by crippling this camera. But to say they simply can't do it is asinine.
OF COURSE they could do it. Could they do it at $1500? With everything else that's in there? Probably not. So what would you give up? I'll tell you what, you can give up the interchangeable lenses, the 14-140 zoom lens, the still photo mode, the large sensor, and everything else, and they could probably give you the better pocketcam codec because -- hey, at that point, it'd BE the pocketcam.

Look -- they don't have any interest whatsoever in "protecting their professional video lineup by crippling this camera". That attitude is the thing here that's asinine. Panasonic Consumer HAS NO professional video lineup! And Panasonic consumer will probably sell 100x more, if not 1000x more, GH1s than the entire Panasonic Broadcast lineup will sell COMBINED. They are separate companies. PBTSC (Panasonic Broadcast and Television Services Company) has no direct overlap with Panasonic Consumer Electronics. And frankly, I seriously doubt anyone at Panasonic Consumer gives a flying crap about how their products will or won't impact PBTSC. At all.


All I want is for them to admit that it's actually a problem and fix it.
It is obviously a problem. And they're probably not going to fix it. If you want to go ahead and start a petition over on the petition group or whatever, go ahead. But for the rest of us who are going to try to work with this thing, and for the some of us who have figured out that it's not so bad and CAN be worked with, well, we're gonna continue trying to make it work.


If enough noise gets made, maybe someone will listen and do something about it. That's all I want- I SO want this camera to be what it is inches from being.
So do I. But I seriously don't have time, bandwidth, or inclination to go tilting at windmills. So my strategy is to instead hassle, beg, and finagle the Broadcast division (the people who will actually care about ultimate codec performance) into bringing out their own version of this product. If that happens, you can pretty much count on getting everything you want. I don't know anyone at Consumer, and I doubt they care what we here think all that much. But Broadcast is a whole different ballpark... those are the people who understand codecs and they know what quality means, they're the folks whose entire marketing campaign is based on reliability and "when it counts". THOSE are the guys who can do what you're asking.

But I can guarantee you, sure as the sun shines, that if they do "fix" it and upgrade it to broadcast standards, it won't be $1500. I'm hoping they can do it and keep it at $1995, but right now there's no commitment from them that they're even looking at pursuing it.

[squig]

put a pro codec in this thing and live HDMI out and it's goodnight scarlet. I'd expect it to be in more of a MKII price bracket.

[Barry_Green]

I'm sure for a similar reason that Steven Soderbergh shot a feature ( Full Frontal in 2002 ) with the Canon XL-1S on MiniDV, with an approximately 2 million dollar budget.
You think that's equivalent to what Squig's talking about? He's talking about a situation where that's all the camera he can get. Soderbergh had Julia Roberts in "Full Frontal". He didn't have to use a Canon XL1. He chose to, to thumb his nose at the hollywood system. And the result was his most dismal, horribly-reviewed box office disaster. And everyone, even the biggest XL1 fans, have to admit that the film looked horrible.


Or the same reason Peter Boyle Shot 28 days later using the Canon XL-1S MiniDV with a $9.8 million budget.
Boyle shot 28 Days Later on video for his own reasons, and budget most certainly wasn't one of them. He wanted the video aesthetic. And again, that has absolutely no relevance to what Squig's talking about.

If you were Mike Figgis and you could shoot "Leaving Las Vegas" on 16mm, well, good for you. But nobody else does. NOBODY. Nobody uses 16mm in Hollywood. Why? Because it's a hideous pain in the butt, as compared to 35mm. And nobody in Hollywood (except the two aforementioned) use consumer video cameras when they have the budget to do otherwise. Unless it's an extreme exception, such as "Crank 2" where they wanted to do something totally new and creative and use 15 cameras at a time all the time.


That's far far far far far cry from a $30,000 dollar budget; isn't?
Precisely the point.

So -- yes, I agree and disagree. I disagree with the notion that those folks chose those products because of their budget, which is what Squig is saying he'd be doing. I agree that they could have chosen anything else to shoot on and chose the Canon for a specific aesthetic. However, that doesn't mean that they were successful with what they were trying to do. Here's how DVD Verdict summed up the look of "Full Frontal":


My largest grievance with Full Frontal comes in the amateurish video presentation. Soderbergh decided to give the film a very natural and unpolished look, so he did 95% of the filming with a handheld camera. A digital camera was used for the footage of Rendez Vous, the film a few of the actors are working on. The result is that 95% of the film looks like a badly lit, grainy, and messy student film. Yeah, yeah, I realize that Soderbergh "meant to do this" to give the film a "natural" feel, but the fact is it still looks like "crap." If I'm going to draw a picture of a tree and to depict the leaves I scribble on the paper with purple ink (after all, I have the artistic skills of a bag of sand), I can argue that I meant to do that, but that doesn't mean anybody has to accept it or appreciate it. Soderbergh's efforts behind the camera were very difficult on the eyes and greatly detracted from the viewing experience.


I'm trying to help no-budget folks figure out a way to work with this thing. I think it can be done. So does Illya, and Hunter, and Kholi, and probably lots more folks. Those who don't think it can be done, their time can probably better be spent trying to figure out how to convert 30p to 24p so they can use their "crippled" EOS 5D Mark II, or trying to figure out how to overcome the jello-licious compression-crunch that is the "crippled" D90. Or whatever else is out there.

The GH1 is close. It's not perfect. Let's see what it can do, instead of getting obsessed over what it can't.

[Barry_Green]

The 720p mpeg video from imaging-resource is fine, no mud at all, whereas the AVCHD both 1080 and 720 are mudded.

if this is right, it means the bug is in the avchd codec.
It is. Long-GoP sucks. Better implementations can suck less, worse implementations suck more. MJPG is intra-frame. Now, MJPG is a fairly lousy codec in and of itself, but it will never be subjected to "mud". That's a long-GoP issue that doesn't manifest itself in intraframe codecs.

[Barry_Green]

However, I wonder if we took a HV30 and a GH1 and attached them to a horizontal tripod rod and locked them on the same FOV then panned them; which codec would be the least distorted or exhibit break up?
I don't know. But I could try to get ahold of an HD100 or an FX1, I know where to lay my hands on those. I couldn't do the *exact same* shot, since I had to send the GH1 back, but I could try to do a roughly similar shot.

[Barry_Green]

I appreciate that you admit that the footage sucks in 1080.
Clarification time: the footage can be MADE to suck in 1080. It can also look fantastic. It depends on how you use it and whether the codec gets overtaxed.

To blanketly say it sucks is to do it a huge disservice. It can look beautiful. And the argument some of us are making is: the restrictions placed on you for making it look beautiful, are pretty much the same restrictions put on film -- stable and controlled pan rates, etc. So if you shoot in a deliberate film style, you'll be in the best position to avoid doing the things that make the footage fall apart.

But yes, you can make the footage fall apart worse on this camera than on any I've ever used. So -- either don't do that, or if you must shoot that way, that's when you need to look at using a different camera.

[shoqman]

Yes, and sub $200 pocket cams have tiny little fixed-focus lenses and everything else that goes with it.

Please see the section of my first comment where I said "don't go freaking out about the pocketcam not having a huge sensor and lowlight performance etc etc." I'm only talking about the codec.



Look -- they don't have any interest whatsoever in "protecting their professional video lineup by crippling this camera". frankly, I seriously doubt anyone at Panasonic Consumer gives a flying crap about how their products will or won't impact PBTSC. At all.

That's honestly awesome to hear- I hoped that wasn't the case, but it's good to hear it.


But Broadcast is a whole different ballpark... those are the people who understand codecs and they know what quality means, they're the folks whose entire marketing campaign is based on reliability and "when it counts". THOSE are the guys who can do what you're asking.

I know, and I know they have talked internally about doing a pro version. I talked to them at NAB and they told me as much. I also know some of them watch these forums.


But I can guarantee you, sure as the sun shines, that if they do "fix" it and upgrade it to broadcast standards, it won't be $1500. I'm hoping they can do it and keep it at $1995, but right now there's no commitment from them that they're even looking at pursuing it.

Wow, for $2000 I would buy two. I'm not even joking. I don't expect it to cost the same as the GH1- they could position it very nicely between the GH1 and a functional scarlet setup and it would be a steal.

[Barry_Green]

and his pan is about 90 degrees at 5 seconds, not superfast.
Haven't seen that clip, but some clarification is in order here: the pan speed you can get away with is entirely dependent on the relative magnification of the image.

So at the very widest angle, you *might* be able to get away with 5 seconds. But if you're halfway through the zoom range, then *no way* can you get away with only 5 seconds, you'll instead have to take something on the order of 30 seconds for that pan.

There's a table published in the ASC manual that lists the proper strobe-free pan speeds for 24fps film. It lists the rate (in seconds or even minutes) for several different focal lengths (shorter focal length = quicker pan, longer focal length = longer pan). If you pan at those rates (or slower) you'll avoid strobing. If you exceed those pan rates, the footage will strobe. It's my contention that if you stick with the ASC panning rates, I am pretty sure you'll avoid "mud" too.


but just don't understand why the grass is totally messed up in this pan.
The grass is messed up in my shots before even starting the pan. The tree leaves have lots of detail, but the grass is fuzzed out.

[Barry_Green]

Please see the section of my first comment where I said "don't go freaking out about the pocketcam not having a huge sensor and lowlight performance etc etc." I'm only talking about the codec.
But you can't do that. You have to look at the whole thing as a package. Everything costs money. The only way you could compare fairly would be to have everything else equal between them. And in your chosen example, *nothing* else is the same. Therefore they can't be compared.


Wow, for $2000 I would buy two. I'm not even joking. I don't expect it to cost the same as the GH1- they could position it very nicely between the GH1 and a functional scarlet setup and it would be a steal.
That's exactly the argument I've been making to them. I think it would be huge. I simply don't understand why any professional videographer wouldn't buy at least one, it'd be the no-brainer must-have accessory.

I don't think I'd try shooting a $100,000 movie on a GH-1. But a professional version? With a pro codec? Maybe. We'll see. However, I don't think I'd have any problem recommending to the "weekend warrior" that he could make his $3,000 movie on a GH1. But it's gonna take some research and some learning to avoid the pitfalls and make sure that you can pull together a solid effort and get the best that the camera can deliver.

[squig]

Barry in relation to mjpeg can you expand on lousy? Do you mean because it's inefficient or aesthetically speaking?

[Psynema]

You got a dud:thumbup:

[dcloud]

id like to point out that the 1500 price comes with a great autofocusing (but slow) lens 14-145 which you can keep as you throw the old "muddy" body away when a new m43 body comes out.

im guessing the lens at least costs atleast $900 with the body at $600.

[PappasArts]

He chose to, to thumb his nose at the hollywood system. And the result was his most dismal, horribly-reviewed box office disaster. And everyone, even the biggest XL1 fans, have to admit that the film looked horrible..



Barry,

That had absolutely nothing to do with camera. Not one pixel. Story, timing and execution of that script in lined with performance that are tailored to that; are some of things that either sink a movie or make it a masterpiece.....

Never a camera........

The Canvas doesn't dictate the painting, and it's emotional connection the the audience. The idea and how it's executed does this almost everytime....



I can prove this you know.


If I take a cell phone video camera and point at the God Farther which is recapturing many generations from the actual live set it was shot; to be a final video on a cell phone video clip. Then watch that performance no matter how the quality of the video results, this film will still be captivating. And nothing less.

No different then listening to a great song that has been mixed in stereo; still has the heart that is intended even if it's on a beach coming through a 10 cent single speaker radio from an AM radio broadcast.

You can't erase the intended heart put into a piece of art no matter what the medium used to capture it.




Michael Pappas
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.

[Elton]

btw, anybody get 28 Days Later on Blu-ray? That's the way to see it. ;)

[Barry_Green]

Barry in relation to mjpeg can you expand on lousy? Do you mean because it's inefficient or aesthetically speaking?
Old and inefficient.

With enough bandwidth it can look decent, but it takes a lot more bandwidth to get decent MJPG than it does to get decent DV or, well, I-frame MPEG-2, or any other modern video codec.

[Barry_Green]

btw, anybody get 28 Days Later on Blu-ray? That's the way to see it. ;)
Hah! Excellent! And netflix has it on blu-ray too... I'm tempted just to relive the glory. But even on a 67" set, it's not gonna be blown up quite like it was from six rows into the theater.

But yeah, if anything can recapture the magic, that'd be it.

[John Caballero]

Barry, if my intended target is television, do I have to remove pulldown on 24p or can I edit and render with the puldown for broadcast? Thanks.

[PappasArts]

I don't think I'd try shooting a $100,000 movie on a GH-1.


If your shooting a 100,000 movie,

You take a slice of the budget; use partial for a down on a business lease to acquire a RED camera or get a loan and do payments from that budget while filming the movie and then, when the film is done sell the package for 80% of what you paid ( pay the loan off ) and that would be cheaper than renting a RED in total.

Now you have a top quality image and hardly much from the budget went to that camera in the end!



Michael Pappas
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[squig]

Old and inefficient.
.

hehe, aren't we all

24 discrete frames is just so much more film like and much less hassle.

[Jim Klatt]

If you had to choose between a great dp with a Can Xl1 or a crappy dp with 35mm film, which would you choose?

The music analogy works for me as well. Some of my favorite recorded music is extremely lo-fi.

[Barry_Green]

That had absolutely nothing to do with camera. Not one pixel.
My understanding is that he intentionally uglied it up.


The Canvas doesn't dictate the painting, and it's emotional connection the the audience.
It can certainly affect it. Most certainly it can. To put it in reverse -- seeing a film in Imax can absolutely impact the way a person perceives it, versus someone else who watches it on an iPhone. Same idea, but from the other side. If you disagree, you're free to, but I think there's a reason that film crews work so incredibly hard on the lighting, the production design, the costumes, the makeup, the hair, the music, the score, the image, the framing, the blocking, everything -- because they know it all counts.

There's a reason Spielberg still insists on editing on film -- he wants to respect the medium, he wants to see it projected on a larger-than-life screen.

But then there's the Dogme folks, who outlawed lighting, production design, costumes, makeup, hair, music, and score, and instead focused on the only thing left -- performances. So good films can be made either way, but I absolutely guarantee you "Aliens" would not have turned out the same way had it been shot on an XL1. And "My Date With Drew" would not have been anywhere near like what it was, had it been shot on a Panavision Millennium on a Fischer Dolly. The specific cameras/mediums chosen had a very direct effect on the artistic impact of both works.

[mhood]

You folks didn't look at this did you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrDxe9gK8Gk

[Barry_Green]

If your shooting a 100,000 movie,

You take a slice of the budget; use partial for a down on a business lease to acquire a RED camera or get a loan and do payments from that budget while filming the movie and then, when the film is done sell the package for 80% of what you paid ( pay the loan off ) and that would be cheaper than renting a RED in total.

Now you have a top quality image and hardly much from the budget went to that camera in the end!
Exactly. People don't understand just how cheap these things are to buy, use, and sell!

[Barry_Green]

Barry, if my intended target is television, do I have to remove pulldown on 24p or can I edit and render with the puldown for broadcast? Thanks.
In the earlier days (i.e., pre-2004) pretty much all TV editing of film was done with the pulldown intact. The film was transferred to 29.97 video with pulldown, and edited as 60i and broadcast as 60i.

Nowadays you could still do that, but I'd still prefer to remove the pulldown. Now you can author a 24p DVD (or even a 24p blu-ray) or a 24p vimeo etc., so the pulldown does get in the way of modern delivery devices.

But yes, it's still a perfectly valid tactic to leave the pulldown intact, if you intend to broadcast on a 1080i network. For a 720p network it's a bit dicier. I'd recommend trying to get rid of the pulldown.

[John Caballero]

Thank you Barry.

[Barry_Green]

If you had to choose between a great dp with a Can Xl1 or a crappy dp with 35mm film, which would you choose?
Neither. I'd choose option 3, a great DP like Macgregor and I'd beg/borrow/steal an appropriate camera for him to shoot on. I'd cheat on that Kobiyashi Maru test!


The music analogy works for me as well. Some of my favorite recorded music is extremely lo-fi.
Point in fact, I don't know how many of you were actively replacing your music collections when CDs first came out some 25 years ago, but I was in a music store and CDs used to be marked with a code of "AAD" or "ADD" or "DDD", to show whether it had been recorded, mastered, and delivered in analog or digital. And I heard two guys talking and one of 'em said "dude, man, I won't buy *anything* that's not DDD."

Kind of rules out every stitch of recorded music prior to 1985 or so, no Beatles, no Elvis, no Stones, no ... well, you get the point.

But then here comes the real kicker: let's say the Beatles were all still alive, and they did decide to reunite in the studio. Would you really want to record them on a 4-track analog cassette recorder, like they used in 1963? or would you commit that once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to the best recording equipment in the world?

Thought so. :)

[squig]

The music analogy works for me as well. Some of my favorite recorded music is extremely lo-fi.

we put a lot of effort into getting a lo-fi sound using valves, plug-ins, filters, ambient vinyl noise etc. Just like you would use old lenses, filters, lighting and post to get a filmic look.

[PappasArts]

It can certainly affect it. Most certainly it can. To put it in reverse -- seeing a film in Imax can absolutely impact the way a person perceives it, versus someone else who watches it on an iPhone.


Barry,



There's a difference, Imax productions for the most part are visceral expanded realties in documentary form.

They rely on the ""ahh"" factor with high resolution, to captivate the audience with very very large screens rather than Hollywood narrative story telling.

Both are very different, and your mixing apples and oranges here.

The Godfarther is not trying to be The Blue Planet anymore than The Blue Planet is trying to be the Godfather.

Different mediums with Different technologies; and not the same kinda of entertainment as narrative films.




Michael Pappas
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[Jim Klatt]

Neither. I'd choose option 3, a great DP like Macgregor and I'd beg/borrow/steal an appropriate camera for him to shoot on. I'd cheat on that Kobiyashi Maru test!

That wasn't an option. Art is about how you react to your limits. That friction often makes something unique and great.

[squig]

I'd go the 4-track

[Jim Klatt]

What made the Beatles great was their creativity, chemistry, and craft. You add or take away some fidelity from their music and you are not changing my emotional connection one iota.

[PappasArts]

What made the Beatles great was their creativity, chemistry, and craft. You add or take away some fidelity from their music and you are not changing my emotional connection one iota.


And if we did run a line from the mixing board to the mic input of a Micro casset recorder.

That music would still have beauty and heart from the Beatles, no matter what....



Unlike if we ran a line to a million dollar recording studio system of the Backstreet Boys!

We would all vomit our own feces.......






Michael Pappas
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[Kholi]

This thread is CRAZY. You guys made Kholi's tummy hurt. I had to take pain killers.

LoL

But good conversation/debate going. Check out Barry Green's involvement. Whaaat.

[squig]

who are these dead beatles he speaks of?

[rubberbandito]

I'm the Terminator, not the anti-christ. Get it right! :D

Got it! Won't make that mistake again.

I knew you guys must have discussed the Image Resource vid before, but don't have time to go through 5000 posts. This forum is insanely hot right now.

[rubberbandito]

There's a table published in the ASC manual that lists the proper strobe-free pan speeds for 24fps film. It lists the rate (in seconds or even minutes) for several different focal lengths (shorter focal length = quicker pan, longer focal length = longer pan). If you pan at those rates (or slower) you'll avoid strobing. If you exceed those pan rates, the footage will strobe. It's my contention that if you stick with the ASC panning rates, I am pretty sure you'll avoid "mud" too.


The grass is messed up in my shots before even starting the pan. The tree leaves have lots of detail, but the grass is fuzzed out.

Thanks Barry. I never heard of ASC tables before. I am a very new amateur but learning tons on these posts. I will look them up. Like you said in one of your posts somewhere "I'm trying to help those on no budget be able to get good use out of this camera" instead of saying how bad it is. Yea, its bad on some things (1080 panning), but for me, I think its a perfect camera: stills for magazines, short 10 minute videos to help small charities (which I'll probably shoot 80% in 720). All at $1500.

[Illya Friedman]

I don't think I've seen a worse-looking film in the theater. Looked like it was shot on VHS.

.....

Doesn't mean it can't be used, and used to good purpose. Hell, HDV is the worst format I've ever seen for breakup, but lots and lots of people use it every day.

Finally, someone else who saw 28 Days Later in the theater. Great movie- and well shot, despite being the worst image quality I ever paid to see. I still contend that film would have been just as powerful if they used 16mm.

I've never been a fan of "intended to look bad", doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place. It was nice to see Mantle win the Oscar for Slumdog. The man is exceptionally talented.

HDV is sneeked into everything these days. Most networks have a 10-15% rule, but that doesn't mean that the producers are actually following those guidelines.

The "would you shoot" question made me think plenty-

The answer is- if TODAY someone gave me I had a choice between a Gh1 w/PL mount Cine lenses, or any lower end "prosumer" camera with the same lenses (plus any adapter), including every flavor of HDV made by JVC, Sony and Canon. I'd gladly take the Gh1.

After the 35mm filmout test I may take that asertion to a higher level, but the jury is still out. Some of the Gh1 images are looking really, really good. I can't wait till I can share them.


I.

Illya Friedman
Hot Rod Cameras

[Illya Friedman]

Thanks Barry. I never heard of ASC tables before.

The best value is the 8th edition, it will give you most everything of the 9th in one book, too much new "stuff" between 7th and 8th editions. Possibly the best $50 any camera inspired film student or newbie cinematographer could spend. Best of all you can easily pick up one used here. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0935578153/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1243999982&sr=1-10&condition=used)


I.

Illya Friedman
Hot Rod Cameras

[squig]

The GH1 is certainly the most versatile option at the moment but I can't get past the aesthetic quality of the MKII and unlike Kholi and Hunter I can only have 1 for now.....decisions decisions

While locked off is more my style occasionally you just want to run around like a crazy man....stabilized of-course

[John Caballero]

This one looks pretty good to me:

http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/4964678 (http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/4964678)

Its all about the cinematographer. Remember, it is an art.

[rubberbandito]

This one looks pretty good to me:

http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/4964678 (http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/4964678)

Its all about the cinematographer. Remember, it is an art.

I don't see that all. It's awful. Artifacts all over the place. The dark is just awful. My flip mino handles low light about the same as that. Except maybe the dancers look sharp in light, but all around them is artifacts everywhere. Not grainy but square boxes (whatever they are called in pro terms).

I've seen so much great footage from the GH1, I can only assume the shooter did something wrong here.

[John Caballero]

Sure. You are looking at the Vimeo compressed version. You wanna look for artifacts go for it. It looks extremely promising. I can't wait to start shooting with mine. Its gonna be a lot of fun.

[rubberbandito]

ok john. i will download the file, but i can't wait to get the camera too, but the artifacts are everywhere on stream version, i am looking not to see them as i want the camera, but its soooo obvious. yea, source is probably much better.

[John Caballero]

I just dowloaded it and considerind the ISO used it looks very good indeed.

[commanderspike]

The GH1 does well with stuff like this. Black backgrounds, not a lot of panning.

The footage using the 7mm wide lens is fantastic. I want that lens so badly... just a shame it costs £800.

[John Caballero]

I'll be doing a lot of this type of shooting. Dancing, lot of similar movement. I am glad it looks good. Also the noise is almost non-existent. Pretty cool.

[ROne]

Anyone got a small untouched PAL clip I could try in Edius?

[Martti Ekstrand]

If you guys think "28 days later" looked bad in cinema then you haven't seen Lars von Triers "The Idiots". Done on a Sony VX1000 and rumours are around that Trier, who shot it himself, accidentally underexposed most of the takes by 2 steps requiring some massive massaging in post to get something viewable on screen. It was nominated for the Golden Palm Award in Cannes...


I tried at 1/50; the shot's overexposed and the light's different so it's not really a fair test, but... bah. Here it is. This was in the middle of a 5-second 90-degree pan (which is about twice as fast as you'd want to actually pan 90 degrees with this field of view!)
http://www.dvxuser.com/barry/Tree-1-50-5-sec-pan.jpg


Thanks for this test. Hmm... so... if I slap on a ND8 to push that foliage into a pretty bokeh while keeping shutter at 1/50 and make a nice pan following a swedish bikini blonde walking towards camera tentatively pouting her lips the following dialogue would later happen at a test screening:


ME
So, could you see any artefacts with codec mush in the background here?

TEST AUDIENCE
(in unison)
Uhhh... BOOBS!



The firmware update we should convince Panasonic Consumer to do is enabling Full HD HDMI out when the cam is not recording for... ahem... 'checking focus and exposure' and then not tell them that we will never press the cam's recording button but the one on our external recorder.

PS. My apologies to any present ladies for the rampant sexism above

[squig]

Ok so I had a couple of hours to kill so I've been doing some serious pixel peeping. Nothing scientific mind you just comparing re-compressed GH1 footage from the usual suspects Hunter, Kholi, Bloom to footage from the D90 I've shot, some MKII stuff and the Pentax K-7 clip. The "test" involved freezing frames during camera and subject movement and comparing the breakdown/mud from the H.264, AVCHD and mjpeg codecs. Now like I said nothing scientific lighting, detail, camera settings, focal lengths all vary but I was looking at multiple clips from each camera/codec. The re-compressed bit-rates also varied but generally averaged about 10Mbps.

here's the results of my opinionated codec motion shootout-

The clear winner by a wide margin is mjpeg. It doesn't break up into a muddy mess like AVCHD does and when it does break up it looks more organic, more of a kinda motion blur. The honors go to the 58Mbps 720p Pentax K-7. Watch this and freeze it on the kid swinging the bat, see any mud? http://vimeo.com/4924324 The 720p 25Mbps+ mjpeg on the GH1 and even the 15Mbps average D90 holds up better than H.264 and AVCHD. I did a fast pan here 16 seconds in and the D90 mjpeg holds up ok http://vimeo.com/4274001

Next up we have the 5D MKII. There's some visible mud from the 42Mbps H.264 but it's much better than the the 1080 AVCHD on the GH1. Try to concentrate on her arm movement- http://www.vimeo.com/2605789

Next we have the 720p AVCHD on the GH1. I have to say Hunter appears to have been able to tame this beast very well (the codec not his little girl) but some of the other 720p stuff I've seen is quite muddy.

Last up of-course is the 1080i AVCHD from the GH1. We've all by now seen plenty of examples of the paintbrush filter effect this creates.

Conclusions-

Well I was just about ready to go and buy a MKII, when there's little subject or camera movement it looks fantastic but I don't know if I want to fork out that much dosh for something that is still a bit flawed.

Now for the GH1 well I don't think I'd use AVCHD in either flavor BUT I may be willing to get one for the mjpeg and do a 24p conversion in post.

The D90, it's heavy on the jello but it can be tamed. If Nikon were to raise the bit-rate and give it manual controls I'd go out and buy another 2 without hesitation and I eagerly anticipate the launch of the D300s/D400.

The sleeper, Pentax K-7. This camera has major potential if Ned at Pentax is listening and pushes for a manual control 24p firmware update. I'm hanging to see more from this beastie and for the $1300 US sticker price I might just get one and deal with the usual workarounds to get the stunning images that I think it could be capable of.

IMO mjpeg is currently the superior DSLR codec for indie filmmaking. It has a more organic/filmic look, has discrete frames, and is much easier to deal with in post. But don't take my word for it get on vimeo and do your own pixel peeping.

[j]

Barry,

If that's the worst mud you can come up with, then Man - That's some nice looking mud!

As a DP, I'd be more than happy to shoot with this "Defective" camera. Seriously.

I understand cost/benefit.

For a low budget film, think of how you could use the money saved - a couple 1,200 HMI rentals for your outside stuff, a car rig, an underwater housing, a jib, a cheap steadicam, a rental of a real steadicam, a mattebox and some nice filters, a good sound guy instead of the $200 guy.

And the list goes on and on and on.....

There is nothing in this price range that competes. Nothing. (If you are looking for large sensor and 24p)

Home run panny!

[squig]

ME
So, could you see any artefacts with codec mush in the background here?

TEST AUDIENCE
(in unison)
Uhhh... BOOBS!




Totally agree, the punters won't know the difference if the filmmaker knows what they're doing. But we can see it and it's up to each of us to decide what tradeoffs we're willing to make. If I had the money I'd shoot 70mm and sit back in my chair and shout action but unfortunately I don't have that luxury so instead I'll blow my 30k and bust my arse to get as close as I can to a 70mm look.

[John Caballero]

NO more pixel peeping, not that I actually did any. The experts have spoken! Once again Panasonic: where the heck is my GH1? Adorama already has a $600 first payment I got the rest in my pocket, where is it?

[j]

Well, for 70mm you'd want at least full frame...

[John Caballero]

ME
So, could you see any artefacts with codec mush in the background here?

TEST AUDIENCE
(in unison)
Uhhh... BOOBS!



Oh yeah BOOBS! That always does the trick!

[squig]

I'm shooting anamorphic.....with boobs

[SonicStates]

Boobs 3-D... :)
I just know someone is gonna bring an end to this stupidity soon...Boobs

[squig]

sonic got any mjpeg I can have a look at? with boobs?

[SonicStates]

I don't think my wife is liking the idea I just proposed to her...hehehe SMACK DOWN...on mjpeg

[John Caballero]

This is a BOOBY TRAP!

[SonicStates]

I refuse to be the...boob...that brings this intellectual conversation to a lower level.

[John Caballero]

The boobs stop here for me, got to get some sleep.

[Martti Ekstrand]

I'm unsincerely sorry to have boobed in this thread!

[squig]

but seriously any mjpeg I can look at with or without your wife?

[SonicStates]

Alright...can't promise a time frame but will shoot some stuff if you want and if Daniel L still lets me use his server space. Anything in particular? Day? Night?

[commanderspike]

I plan to shoot some stuff in MJPEG mode today too... just test footage, but want to see if it's faster to edit than CPU hungry AVCHD streams.

[squig]

a bit of each would be great, just some street scenes. I might be able to work with the mjpeg but I don't think I wanna touch AVCHD. thx

[squig]

much easier to edit

[Ian-T]

This one looks pretty good to me:

http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/4964678 (http://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/4964678)

Its all about the cinematographer. Remember, it is an art.Strange but I couldn't find any mud in this video.

[Barry_Green]

There's a difference, Imax productions for the most part are visceral expanded realties in documentary form.
Or "The Dark Knight" or "Up" playing in Imax 3d, etc.


Both are very different, and your mixing apples and oranges here.
If that's the case, then I must have misunderstood your point. You said (or so I thought) that the choice of camera has no effect on the final product. I say that's absolutely not the case.

[Barry_Green]

What made the Beatles great was their creativity, chemistry, and craft. You add or take away some fidelity from their music and you are not changing my emotional connection one iota.
Agreed. But if you had to record them today, would you still choose the lo-fi recording method? Or would you go for the best you could get?

[Isaac_Brody]

Strange but I couldn't find any mud in this video.

Hahaha. I think it's hilarious that people are going to be looking at every GH1 clip with their heads pressed up to their monitors looking for "mud."

We know what the weaknesses are, and I agree with John that this is an art and those who know the limits and how to work around them will produce some fantastic work. For the fence sitters, something better is always just around the corner. If you're willing to wait for a year from now I'm sure the GH2/D90s/5DIII will almost almost meet your expectations. :)

[Barry_Green]

If that's the worst mud you can come up with, then Man - That's some nice looking mud!
Oh, no no no no no -- I can get astonishingly bad mud with it. Stuff easily on par with Commanderspike's. What I'm saying is: when used *properly* as a *cinema camera*, this is a forced condition of how bad it will be. When used improperly, oh it's a million times worse.

But even then, my case was about forcing it to be bad. As Martti said, normally you'd have a 3-stop ND filter on there (or more), which would lower the overall amount of crisp detail in the background and make the job much easier on the codec... and you'd be shooting at a motion-blur-inducing 1/50th instead of my hyper-sharp 1/800, which will also make the job easier on the codec... and you'd be following a subject, so nobody would be looking at the background anyway... and under those shooting conditions (which would amount to proper cinema style shooting) no rational person would likely see any mud.


There is nothing in this price range that competes. Nothing. (If you are looking for large sensor and 24p)
That's my contention. It's not perfect, there are issues, but there's nothing else within a hundred miles of it, so -- how can we make it work? That's the quest. And I think it's likely perfectly workable. Likely enough that I think we're gonna try soon.

[Ian-T]

Hahaha. I think it's hilarious that people are going to be looking at every GH1 clip with their heads pressed up to their monitors looking for "mud."

:)LOL..you guys made me do it.

I'm glad you said that cause right about now I'm feeling real stupid. I really was pressing my face up againts the monitor..LoL. I guess I really understand the term "pixel peeping" now.

It's like the HV20's jello....if folks didn't make such a big deal about it back in the day I don't think I would have noticed it right away (that is until I hopped on a helicopter ride or something).

[Martti Ekstrand]

Strange but I couldn't find any mud in this video.
Me neither but I did notice a lot of nice 'organic' motion blur all over it.
Perhaps enough to make squig flip-flop again? :2vrolijk_08:

[Nitsuj]

I do think how you watch a movie has a great impact on the experience. A lot of movies are made with the theatre experience in mind. I think the camera has a lot to do with it but so does the environment you are in when you watch it. However that is just part of it. Sound, picture, environment, story, performance, and production are all combined as one experience.

With all that being said people think how people are actually judging this camera? What are you watching it on? It can't be judged through web compression or even watching it on your PC monitor. Take something shot really well and put it on Blue-Ray plastic, slide into a PS3 and view it on the biggest HD TV you can find. Turn off the lights, tweak the Dolby Digital sound system, pop some popcorn... and I bet your experience will be much different then what you just watched on vimeo or you PC screaming to play the AVCHD file.

I think David Lynch said it best...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0

It all must be put into perspective and I think this cam rawks. :beer:

[commanderspike]

You don't have to really be looking for it to notice the problem.

It's not like it's a small issue.

I and others went looking for it, trying to induce it with quick swooping pans on detailed scenes for a reason... to figure out why it occurs, and how to avoid it. This bit isn't art, it's a science.

I totally agree that getting GOOD footage from the GH1 is an art... all types of cinematography is.

That's what we all intend to do... figure out it's limitations, work around them and expertly, and produce something artistically decent.

[AdrianF]

What will happen if you shoot mud wrestling with this camera? Will one cancel the other out?!

[commanderspike]

Loved that David Lynch clip :)

[Isaac_Brody]

I and others went looking for it, trying to induce it with quick swooping pans on detailed scenes for a reason... to figure out why it occurs, and how to avoid it. This bit isn't art, it's a science

Therein lies the problem, don't do quick swooping pans in 1080 mode. As Barry already mentioned, when shooting like it's a "cinema camera" you can avoid killing the codec.

I agree it's not a small issue, and I hope Panasonic is listening and working to improve the codec implementation and/or add MJPEG modes at 1080 and 720 at 24P native with a higher bitrate.

[commanderspike]

I totally agree Issac.

Fast pans are not particularly my thing, I can't see it affect me and obstruct me when trying to be creative, but it's an avenue that's been cut off... no fast or indeed medium speed panning most of the time in 1080p mode, it's as simple as that! Until the fix... if there is one.

The problem does not lie in testing, however. Testing is meant to produce the problem.

That is to say I was trying to fuck it up.

Highlighting the problem to it's extreme has hopefully alerted Panasonic to the fact it exists, if (unbelievably) they didn't already know. I am sure they will make the GH1's full HD mode more robust in the future.

[Kholi]

I totally agree Issac.

Fast pans are not particularly my thing, I can't see it affect me and obstruct me when trying to be creative, but it's an avenue that's been cut off... no fast or indeed medium speed panning most of the time in 1080p mode, it's as simple as that! Until the fix... if there is one.

The problem does not lie in testing, however. Testing is meant to produce the problem.

That is to say I was trying to poo poo it up.

Highlighting the problem to it's extreme has hopefully alerted Panasonic to the fact it exists, if (unbelievably) they didn't already know. I am sure they will make the GH1's full HD mode more robust in the future.


Commander, you has a new mission. Report for doody...err.. duty.. here: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=173260

[PappasArts]

If that's the case, then I must have misunderstood

You most certainly have Sir.

Hasn't been the first time; and I'm damn sure it won't be the last..........


Your going to see it your way. I'm going to see it my way. Your argument stands along side a techno measurebating head type ( left brain dominant ); where is I approach from an artistic side who has technical prowess abilities. So neither one of us are going to complety see each others POV. I'm sorry you can't see it. There is nothing I can do for you; to help you see the center point of this discussion.

I suggest Barry, You go listen to your CD's of the Back Street Boy's in glorious Hi-fidelity; while I will be content with appreciating an old Rolling Stones tune playing through a tin can speaker :-)



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1638289&postcount=97
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84

Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Pappas/573417404
Myspace:
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts

Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }
.

[PappasArts]

[QUOTE=commanderspike;1654460=I am sure they will make the GH1's full HD mode more robust in the future.[/QUOTE]


For sure. The GH1 is V.1 and it does so much. I can only imagine that the GH2 will really become refined to a much sharper point..


.

[TrueIndigo]

I've gone through the ups and downs of this thread, at times keeping the faith with the camera, at other times deciding that I'll stay with my HV20 after all because of the 1080 codec issue. I've probably changed my mind as often as squig, but only because, like squig, I just want the best for this summer's little film (which, as usual, is totally funded from whatever's left over from real life). Finally, I'm back onboard with the GH1: I've bought some adapters to use my motley colection of still camera lenses (and some c-mount lenses which were gathering dust), because after several pages of being scared off the camera, I think what you guys (Kholi, Barry, Illya) are saying is: keep it at 1/60th (1/50th for PAL), keep it steady, ease it into the pans, and in most cases you'll be all right. I'd like to know the finer points (is there an ideal ISO setting for this camera?), noise reduction (presumably we should turn everything like that and sharpening off?) and start enjoying the good things (for me: using manual prime lenses and manual exposure).

Kholi -- if you were shooting material for your own purposes with the GH1, would you choose 720p60 or 1080p24?

[Kholi]

Kholi -- if you were shooting material for your own purposes with the GH1, would you choose 720p60 or 1080p24?

Easy. 1080/24. And when I absolutely have to 720/60 uprezzed to 1080/24.

It'd be nice to have a better 1080/24 but there're way too many positive about the GH-1 to worry about it. Maybe we'll get a 1080/24P MJPEG update? That'd seal it right there.

I'm having issues adjusting to the MKii, so regardless of it's better/stout 1080 I just prefer the GH-1 as a whole.

[TrueIndigo]

Thanks mate; there still seems to be some mysteries about this camera yet to be confirmed for manual operation -- looking forward to reading your conclusions...

[PappasArts]

[QUOTE=Kholi;16546561080/24P MJPEG update? [/QUOTE]

Now that would be awesome if that happen...


.

[PappasArts]

{{{I think what you guys (Kholi, Barry, Illya) are saying is: keep it at 1/60th (1/50th for PAL), keep it steady, ease it into the pans, and in most cases you'll be all right}}}



You know what's funny....

You can't move the GH1 to much cause you'll break the codec. On the 5D you can't move the camera to much cause you introduce skew artifacts....

Either way you can't move these cameras without some issue......LOL


Pick your poison..



..

[Kholi]

{{{I think what you guys (Kholi, Barry, Illya) are saying is: keep it at 1/60th (1/50th for PAL), keep it steady, ease it into the pans, and in most cases you'll be all right}}}



You know what's funny....

You can't move the GH1 to much cause you'll break the codec. On the 5D you can't move the camera to much cause you introduce skew artifacts....

Either way you can't move these cameras without some issue......LOL


Pick your poison..



..

Now THAT is hilarious. It's pretty true. If you're not careful when moving either you'll fall victim to SOME sort of image anomaly.

[PappasArts]

[QUOTE=Kholi;1654656]I'm having issues adjusting to the MKii, so regardless of it's better/stout 1080 I just prefer the GH-1 as a whole/QUOTE]

Curios Kholi; What are some of the issues your having?.







.

[Jean Dantes]

Ok, a few hours ago I was extremely excited and about to order a PAL GH1, but then I stumbled on this thread and it scared the shit out of me...

Somebody please fill me in; what's the go with all this mud thing?

...I am severely having second thoughts about replacing my JVC GY-HD111E with the GH1 now...

[Nighthawk]

Pick your poison..



..

...then try to find the antidote. That's what these threads are all about.

[John Caballero]

Somebody please fill me in; what's the go with all this mud thing?


Oh boy! Read the entire thread, it is all there in living color. Not much else to say about it really. At the end of the day its a great camera for those that will know how to use properly.

[PappasArts]

...then try to find the antidote. That's what these threads are all about.


Indeed.

Or slowly ingest the least poisonous of the two.......




.

[Jean Dantes]

Oh boy! Read the entire thread, it is all there in living color. Not much else to say about it really. At the end of the day its a great camera for those that will know how to use properly.

I did read the entire thread cause I was hoping to come across a post that would explain the "mud" as some sort of anomaly, and not a widespread problem. But this is insane. I am dying to love this camera, but with "mud" like this, regardless of if you can use it properly or not, is completely unacceptable.

...man, I knew this camera was too good to be true...

...quick, somebody say something smart and reassure me :P

[Nitsuj]

I did read the entire thread cause I was hoping to come across a post that would explain the "mud" as some sort of anomaly, and not a widespread problem. But this is insane. I am dying to love this camera, but with "mud" like this, regardless of if you can use it properly or not, is completely unacceptable.

...man, I knew this camera was too good to be true...

...quick, somebody say something smart and reassure me :P

*sigh*

This whole thing has been explained in numerous threads. Go through and research it then decide if it is the camera for you. I think this camera is fine. You just have to know how to shoot it.

...again if this guy can do something great with a freakin' cell phone...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrDxe9gK8Gk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrDxe9gK8Gk)

...then the GH1 is fine.

[PappasArts]

...quick, somebody say something smart and reassure me :P


It's better than a DVX100+; And a lot of projects, and even one's that went to the big screen were made with that system.

The GH1 is gravy on a great slice of turkey, sitting next to a homemade pie compared to the DVX100.


Does that visual help!

.

[Jean Dantes]

*sigh*

This whole thing has been explained in numerous threads. Go through and research it then decide if it is the camera for you. I think this camera is fine. You just have to know how to shoot it.

...again if this guy can do something great with a freakin' cell phone...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrDxe9gK8Gk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrDxe9gK8Gk)

...then the GH1 is fine.

I dunno if you noticed, but I've only been a member here for just over 48 hours...

Can you point me in the direction of some of the numerous threads? Or give me a keyword to search? Would be greatly appreciated!

And the GH1 isn't "fine" because some guy won Tropfest with his cell-phone. That guy's film is an entirely diferent ball park and has nothing to do with the GH1. Yes, "story is king". Yes, narrative is more important then cinematography. That guys cell-phone movie is evidence of that. However, that's besides the point here, cause we're not talking about film narrative, we're talking about cinematography. Like I said before, I want to love this camera. I am dying to love this camera. I just wanna know what kind of "mud" I'll be dealing with here.



It's better than a DVX100+; And a lot of projects, and even one's that went to the big screen were made with that system.

The GH1 is gravy on a great slice of turkey, sitting next to a homemade pie compared to the DVX100.


Does that visual help!

.

Yes, that helps lol. I like gravy. I like turkey. And homemade pie is always good. But I don't like mud...

[John Caballero]

Jean, start from the original poster on this same thread and read the whole thing. Its all there. Then move around the other threads. It has been beaten to a pull. Some people were even going to commit suicide over it! Start at the begining of this thread first.

But the only way for you to make certain if the camera is for you is to do your very own testing whenever you can get a hold of one. You can't live thru others.

[Jean Dantes]

Jean, start from the original poster on this same thread and read the whole thing. Its all there. Then move around the other threads. It has been beaten to a pull. Some people were even going to commit suicide over it! Start at the begining of this thread first.

But the only way for you to make certain if the camera is for you is to do your very own testing whenever you can get a hold of one. You can't live thru others.

Perhaps somebody should create a sticky in regards to this "mud" situation if there are "numerous" threads on it, and if it has been "beaten to a pull"?

[John Caballero]

There is no need for a sticky. Like Barry Green said earlier on this thread: use it like a cinema camera and pan accordingly on 1080p. No crazy whip panning should be applied. I don't know what part of that people don't understand. On the other hand like Barry said, if you have a creative need to do that kind of panning the GH1 is not the camera for you.

[Nitsuj]

All the info is in this thread. Just read it over and read all the other threads. I have and so have a lot of others. If you want to know the information is right inside the forums.

[ydgmdlu]

{{{I think what you guys (Kholi, Barry, Illya) are saying is: keep it at 1/60th (1/50th for PAL), keep it steady, ease it into the pans, and in most cases you'll be all right}}}



You know what's funny....

You can't move the GH1 to much cause you'll break the codec. On the 5D you can't move the camera to much cause you introduce skew artifacts....

Either way you can't move these cameras without some issue......LOL


Pick your poison..



..
You know, just the other day, I realized the same thing, which instantly took the pi$$ out of arguments about one camera being superior to another in regards to motion. However, using the 60p and 30p modes on the GH1 should lessen the "mud" issue.

[Jean Dantes]

There is no need for a sticky. Like Barry Green said earlier on this thread: use it like a cinema camera and pan accordingly on 1080p. No crazy whip panning should be applied. I don't know what part of that people don't understand. On the other hand like Barry said, if you have a creative need to do that kind of panning the GH1 is not the camera for you.

Thanks you! A factual reply! Much appreciated!!!

If I may ask, when you say whip panning, do you mean panning at a ultra high speed?

Thank you again!

[killacam]

I think some people found vertical streaking in the blue channel? Could this be a reason why the camera is having a hard time when there is a lot of green in the video?

[Kholi]

I think some people found vertical streaking in the blue channel? Could this be a reason why the camera is having a hard time when there is a lot of green in the video?


Not sure, but I'm getting similar streaking at low ISOs with the MKii. I think it's just a matter of finding out which ISOs to use and which ones to avoid.

Never thought I'd see the weirdness with the Canon but sure enough is there. These two are a lot alike.

[Jean Dantes]

You know, just the other day, I realized the same thing, which instantly took the pi$$ out of arguments about one camera being superior to another in regards to motion. However, using the 60p and 30p modes on the GH1 should lessen the "mud" issue.

I wonder if this problem is related to the pseudo 24P that the NTSC GH1 is creating? Perhaps the PAL GH1 doesn't suffer from this due to not having to create fake frames via an odd numbered equation (60/24)...

[Nitsuj]

Thanks you! A factual reply! Much appreciated!!!

If I may ask, when you say whip panning, do you mean panning at a ultra high speed?

Thank you again!

Here I'll even tell you what page this starts to get covered on... 14. Go there and read man. Just read this whole thread.

[sunburst]

These two are a lot alike.


they ARE Kholi? Not too happy to hear you say that. Looking for a shootout,
thats for sure. thanks anyone.

[timbook2]

(keep in mind it's basically horrific shakycam footage, flinging the camera around like a spastic dweeb with fire ants in his pants, making "Cloverfield" look like it was shot on a Steadicam).


LOL:grin:

[ydgmdlu]

I wonder if this problem is related to the pseudo 24P that the NTSC GH1 is creating? Perhaps the PAL GH1 doesn't suffer from this due to not having to create fake frames via an odd numbered equation (60/24)...
No, at least one PAL GH1 owner is reporting the same thing. The reason that the "mud" happens is because the GH1 has a poor implementation of an interframe codec. Only interframe codecs have "mud."

And the 24p is not "pseudo" either.

[John Caballero]

If I may ask, when you say whip panning, do you mean panning at a ultra high speed?


The fastest you do it the more it brakes. It has problems catching up with the motion. There is no final concensus yet on how slow you should go or up to what certain speed its ok. There are conflicting reports but as soon as more people start getting the cameras and testing for tresholds we won't be certain for sure. Its all in the learning process. Enjoy the journey, although it might be a bumpy one!

[Kholi]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/picture.php?albumid=137&pictureid=1130

All I know is that I'm not as happy with the MKii as I am the GH-1. And I'm sad that this little bad-ass in the center has found a new home.

Here's the pros and cons list again:


GH-1

Pros:

- 1080/24P, 720/60P, 720/30P
* Slow Mo in Post is easier, direct
* 720/60P is robust
* MJPEG Option for instant access
- PAL Support
- 4/3" Sensor
* Vast coverage of lenses in every brand including Cinema Spec
* Easy Focus Pulling, Mark Hitting
- Small and Lightweight: Great for small rigs and setups
- Kit lens: 14-140 w/Silent Focus and OIS
* Automatic Features (great for doc, run-n-gun)
- Flip Out Rotatable LCD (great for run-n-gun)
- IN-Camera Crop Options
- Jello Control in Both 1080 and 720 controlled extremely well.
- Excellent Battery Consumption
* 2 Hours for recording.
* 1 Hour Charge Time for batteries
- No Overheating or intense heat output
- Lengthy Recording Times in all modes. Great for Events, etc.
- Quite cheap for the benefits that come with it.
* MSR: 1500.00 w/Kit Lens

Cons:

- 1080/24P not at its best -- enough of an image hit to warrant caution
* Contained in 60i which needs Pulldown
* Artifacts introduced due to 1080/24P Implementation
- Lowlight performance not as great as MKii
- Not exactly S35mm FOV
- No Video Out Monitoring during recording built-in
- No Audio Metering (dunno if this is really a con, but sure)
- Weak Still Capabilities on a Consumer level
- Aliasing issues in 1080P, 720P TBD but looks better. Needs workarounds


Canon 5D MKii

Pros

- Full frame sensor
* Photographic Full Frame FOV and DOF
* Better low light performance
* High dynamic range
* Live HDMI out while recording
- Robust 1080 Compression. Still worthy video in fact.
- Incredible still images for the money
- Hudson's Participation in the 5D Free Program
* Gui represented Audio Levels
* Adjustable Audio gain
* On screen Zebras for Highlight pretection
* Crop Marks on Screen for Video stay visible
- Live Video out through HDMI or Composite port during recording

Cons

- 30P limitation. No options in-camera to record higher or lower
- Full Frame DOF will cause problems with focusing in Run-N-Gun
- Full Frame limits lens choices, although great glass available that covers it.
- Larger Body than competitors
- No Crop Options at the time, need to crop in post if you want such a thing.
- Battery Drains quickly when Live View is activated
- No Flip-Out LCD. Locked into EVF or Stationary LCD on back.
- Hot Pixels prone to appearing during extended use
- Heats Up: affects not known, outside of hot pixels.
- Aliasing issues need workarounds
- Jello more prevalent than GH-1, but much better than D90
- Price in comparison to competitors
* 2600 + Tax (2800+ in CA) with no kit lens

And similarities

GH-1 and MKii Similarities-

- The Post Workflow requires just as much attention on both sides.
* the MKii at the moment only shoots 30P. Lets be real, most of us want 24p. If you want that then you must go through a process. You can create a droplet for this, but it'll be done. You also have to convert to something you can edit.
* the GH-1 needs a friggin' pulldown. You know the drill. I mean, you get 24P, but you still have to convert/log and transfer. NeoScene makes this a one-step process along with other methods that Isaac Brody has found.

- No Real Onboard Audio
* Metering or not, on boad audio is not here. Both need dual systems which adds to the overall cost of production. even if that cost is low, it's still a cost.

- Both need External Filters
* Slice it how you will. A [good] ND Filter Kit, if not two, will be needed. Puredrifting (Dan) purchased the awesome Singh Ray, a variable ND filter. It also cost about 300+ Retail. I have a set of Hoya ND's that ran me 150.00. You'll also want to have a Polarizer, etc. You overlook this and you'll be wondering why everyone else's footage destroys yours. You must adopt a new kind of mentality: the cinema mentality.

- Support Gear
* We all must find a way to deal with these things. Zacuto, Cinevate, Redrock have all put stuff together but does it work right? This is going to take some getting used to. In exchange for the small size, we now need to find out how to stabilize the cameras in a manner that's cost effective and matches the cost of the camera itself. Did you really gain anything if you have to use a full steadicam rig to get proper motion out of them? No.

- CMOS technology
* no matter which one exhibits the better jello handling, they both have to be tailored to their CMOS limitations. Until someone drops a Global Shutter, they're BOTH inferior to a Global Shutter CCD sensor when dealing with motion, flashes, etc.

- Excellent Storage Capacity
* Beats p2 and SxS cards by a mile, my friends. They both have this advantage, without a doubt.

- Incredible Dynamic Range over Prosumer Video Camera Offerings
* Need I say more? Jack Daniel Stanley made the best point of any posted: they're BOTH better than rocking a 35mm Adapter as far as Dynamic Range and Highlight Handling goes.

- Still Camera Double
* No matter which is better, you still get great stills for the price of both.

- Resale Value
* Welcome to the consumer market. You can keep your glass and sell the camera body when the next one comes up. The ballgame is different here. There are WAY more consumers to sell your gear too than there are Prosumers. Get your use out of it, take care of your gear and sell later to get the next best thing. This is one huge reason why the which-is-better-debates are irrelevant. We will all be better in a year or two.


--- At the end of the day, now having this GH-1 back in my hands... I'm really sorry but the overall winner is the GH-1. I'm not gonna soapbox, but I'm really sad to see it leave and can't wait to get my two US bodies in.

[sunburst]

overall winner is the GH-1.

Kholi, thanks for your time, and expertise, in providing this comparison.

I was certainly looking forward to a gh1. It looks like the most FUN camera,
and versatile. The canon though, has the mind blowing resolution and codec.

For most the gh1 looks like the better choice. I can't afford both.

In my case, I will be shooting over 40 percent GREEN screen. Also I am not
interested in 720p. 1080 only. doesnt that put the gh1 out of the equation
for me?

I don't know what to do, other than wait for a canon with 24p, stock issue, or hope something new hits the market. ????

what do you think?

thanks

[timbook2]

This sounds like a reasonable approach; if it truly doesn't have B frames, then it's not as efficient as it could otherwise be, and the only fix for that is more bandwidth. However, the GH1, being an AVCHD device, will be limited to a max of 24mbps if they were to attempt to throw bandwidth at it to reduce the compression errors.

Frankly I think the best solution would be to use the HMC150 chips. That would give them more bandwidth, B frames, and pN mode (and pN is extremely easier to compress than interlaced 2:3 pulldown footage).

I would not expect changes on the existing model, but I have hopes that they could be applied to a customized broadcast version.

and at that point HEAt would enter the stage again....just like with the MKII, which heats up too much, the RED which heats up...etc....

there are compromises to be made and the GH1 is not even prosumer...
But maybe the GH2 will be better....til then I hope to make some money with mine.

[PappasArts]

Not sure, but I'm getting similar streaking at low ISOs with the MKii. I think it's just a matter of finding out which ISOs to use and which ones to avoid.

Never thought I'd see the weirdness with the Canon but sure enough is there. These two are a lot alike.

I have seen this with a lot of CMOS based systems...




.

[Martti Ekstrand]

Kholi, thanks for your time, and expertise, in providing this comparison.

Seconded, that was a very concise write-up Kholi, good job!


In my case, I will be shooting over 40 percent GREEN screen. Also I am not
interested in 720p. 1080 only. doesnt that put the gh1 out of the equation
for me?For green screen I'd use a video cam with a 1080 4:2:2 live signal out and either capture uncompressed straight to a computer or with a external recorder like AJA's new Ki Pro. GH1 has a 4:2:0 colour signal which is not very suitable for green screen work, especially after been pressed through AVCHD or Mjpeg compression. Also when shooting green screen you do want a deeper DoF so using a camera with smaller sensor makes more sense.

[Barry_Green]

In my case, I will be shooting over 40 percent GREEN screen. Also I am not
interested in 720p. 1080 only. doesnt that put the gh1 out of the equation
for me?
Why? What kind of greenscreen? It's usually locked-down shots, right?

Although the 4:2:0 color sampling is not ideal for greenscreening...

[Orchidthief]

Seconded, that was a very concise write-up Kholi, good job!

For green screen I'd use a video cam with a 1080 4:2:2 live signal out and either capture uncompressed straight to a computer or with a external recorder like AJA's new Ki Pro. GH1 has a 4:2:0 colour signal which is not very suitable for green screen work, especially after been pressed through AVCHD or Mjpeg compression. Also when shooting green screen you do want a deeper DoF so using a camera with smaller sensor makes more sense.

Such a bummer because I plan on green screening as well. Kholi, since you have first hand experience with the cam, do you think it'll hold up alright for that purpose?

[squig]

Strange but I couldn't find any mud in this video.

I did there's a spot where she lunges her head forward I froze it there and her head was just a big white blob no detail left at all. anywhere there is movement the codec just falls apart and there is no detail left where the movement is.

[Kholi]

I'm not sure how it'll hold up. Barry's got a point, most green screen stuff is locked down. That'll be a test for sure, to see how well it keys.

I wouldn't really use anything sub RED, personally, for chroma work like that, though. That's one place RED can keep its victory. 4K for VFX and such is great.

The EX-1 footage keys pretty well, it's 4:2:0. Shot for shot, EX-1 and GH-1 next to each other with no camera movement, then yeah I bet you could key the GH-1 footage just as well as you could key EX-1 footage.

If you're going to be doing movement, tracking, etc I'd suggest finding an alternative for these shots. I definitely would NOT try to do that stuff with an EX-1. I'd go for a RED rental or an HVX200A.

[Nitsuj]

Such a bummer because I plan on green screening as well. Kholi, since you have first hand experience with the cam, do you think it'll hold up alright for that purpose?

Make sure your lighting is perfect everytime all the time. You have to be careful what clothing is worn. You have to expect to do a lot of post work and you have to expect you might be reshooting or scrapping shots completely. It can work... it's just a pain in the ass. I have done it many times on low end cameras. It's going to be a lot of trial and error really.

[squig]

There is no need for a sticky. Like Barry Green said earlier on this thread: use it like a cinema camera and pan accordingly on 1080p. No crazy whip panning should be applied. I don't know what part of that people don't understand. On the other hand like Barry said, if you have a creative need to do that kind of panning the GH1 is not the camera for you.

Only problem is it's not just the camera movement that creates mud. subject movement does it too to a lesser extent. So if you can get your actors to stand still for the duration of your film you'll be fine. I know I'm detecting this by freezing frames but it's happening to every frame where there is movement and I value the integrity of my frames.

[sunburst]

For green screen I'd use a video cam with a 1080 4:2:2 live signal out and either capture uncompressed straight to a computer or with a external recorder like AJA's new Ki Pro. GH1 has a 4:2:0 colour signal which is not very suitable for green screen work, especially after been pressed through AVCHD or Mjpeg compression. Also when shooting green screen you do want a deeper DoF so using a camera with smaller sensor makes more sense.

Hi Martti Ekstrand,

Ha, doesnt that bring me back to my HV20?

I have the blackmagic intensity card, ready to try that direct to laptop. However, big delays in compatibility with adobe CS4 have kept my from trying this.



Why? What kind of greenscreen? It's usually locked-down shots, right?

Although the 4:2:0 color sampling is not ideal for greenscreening...

Hi Barry,

any type of green screen I can pull off.

I've done at least 4 shoots in the last two months. All with the stock HV20. although I havent yet keyed them, due to set up problems. so not sure what I will get.

I've read encouraging posts about greenscreen with the MK2. reports say way
better than HDV. { using the vanilla MK2 } Also they say the right lens handles the DOF issue.

also doesnt it have HDMI out, if needed to go to the intensity?


Not all my work will be green screen. I'm hoping for a cam that can pull off
normal shots too. good MOTION and 24p a must!

[Orchidthief]

Thanks for the input on that fellas. If I do carry through with green screen stuff it's mainly gonna be locked off shots anyway, so that may work.

Most of my stuff is going to be locked off period, so I'm even more excited. Would love to try to shoot a mini-documentary with this thing.

[squig]

Not sure, but I'm getting similar streaking at low ISOs with the MKii. I think it's just a matter of finding out which ISOs to use and which ones to avoid.

Never thought I'd see the weirdness with the Canon but sure enough is there. These two are a lot alike.

well they are both H.264 based codecs

[Kholi]

well they are both H.264 based codecs

I don't think it's the compression. Looks like how it feeds the video or acquires it more so than anything.

Also, it has to do with the ISO as far as these two cameras are concerned. I notice it much more in some footage than others, the ISO setting is the culprit.

Now I know and Now I cans avoid.

[squig]

Kholi have you shot much mjpeg stuff? I was content with the resolution from you supersoaker shots. It was like a "clean" D90. I was just about to get the MKII until I noticed the codec going to shit with subject movement. I think I'm gonna stick with mjpeg for the film. I'm thinking Pentax K-7 and GH1 and 30-24p in post but hopefully there will be native 24p by then. These long GOP implementations are all flawed at these bit-rates. Maybe at 100Mbps they can handle camera and subject movement but not at 17Mbps.

[codeloss]

squig, have you looked at any 5D source footage? I think the codec holds up a bit better than you're giving it credit for.

[Kholi]

Kholi have you shot much mjpeg stuff? I was content with the resolution from you supersoaker shots. It was like a "clean" D90. I was just about to get the MKII until I noticed the codec going to shi* with subject movement. I think I'm gonna stick with mjpeg for the film. I'm thinking Pentax K-7 and GH1 and 30-24p in post but hopefully there will be native 24p by then. These long GOP implementations are all flawed at these bit-rates. Maybe at 100Mbps they can handle camera and subject movement but not at 17Mbps.


Nah, not much MJPEG stuff but revisiting that Supersoaker example footage I wish I had! I should have been testing MUCH more but alas, hindsigh is always 20/20.

Also, be careful with the MKii footage you're watching. I have yet to see any break-up in raw material from the MKii. I know it's there, but I can't spot it, not even in a Video of the GF playing Wii Active. =P

I will give the MKii its due on image quality: its outstanding and I can see why people are gravitating toward it like flys on poopish. Can't wait for 24P m'self.

[sunburst]

Barry's got a point, most green screen stuff is locked down. That'll be a test for sure, to see how well it keys.


thanks. Okay not sure what you mean by " locked down" Im new to this.


I wouldn't really use anything sub RED, personally,.

ha! Kholi, as I posted, I had plans to use the BM intensity card with my HV20.

thats not RED budget range - lol.


well the intensity with HV20 puts out 4-2-2- right?


I'd go for a RED rental or an HVX200A.

rentals dont work for me. I like to own, and work, on flexible time chunks.

thanks

[squig]

squig, have you looked at any 5D source footage? I think the codec holds up a bit better than you're giving it credit for.

no good point, know where I can find some?

[Kholi]

thanks. Okay not sure what you mean by " locked down" Im new to this.



ha! Kholi, as I posted, I had plans to use the BM intensity card with my HV20.

thats not RED budget range - lol.


well the intensity with HV20 puts out 4-2-2- right?



rentals dont work for me. I like to own, and work, on flexible time chunks.

thanks


Oh yeah dude, for sure. Please do try it.

Sorry, I'm on pain killers again and I'm just SO out of it.

[squig]

Nah, not much MJPEG stuff but revisiting that Supersoaker example footage I wish I had! I should have been testing MUCH more but alas, hindsigh is always 20/20.

Also, be careful with the MKii footage you're watching. I have yet to see any break-up in raw material from the MKii. I know it's there, but I can't spot it, not even in a Video of the GF playing Wii Active. =P

I will give the MKii its due on image quality: its outstanding and I can see why people are gravitating toward it like flys on poopish. Can't wait for 24P m'self.

well the 30p mjpeg is enough to put you off but it's just far more solid and it is a constant bit rate mjpeg yeah?

Have you looked at that Pentax K-7 footage of the baseball kid? The mjpeg handles the motion really well and it's shot with a 200mm lens, it looks handheld but no jello!

[squig]

Hey Kholi, reckon you can put a few seconds of that raw wii footage up on megaupload for me to have a look at? pretty please with sugar on top

[PappasArts]

rentals dont work for me. I like to own, and work, on flexible time chunks.

thanks

Kholi,

You don't pay for rentals to stay, however at the end of there use, for them to leave.........

Oooops! Wrong forum..... Wrong Subject.....

We're talking about gear here...... I'll "escort " myself out the door......


:-)

[Daniel L.]

Very tempted to post my own revised list, already typed up too! Based on my own point of view of course... Some would no doubt disagree with me, just as much as I would disagree with them. But that's OK, nowhere does it say we always have to agree with each other.

I look forward to see what people do with the GH1. While it's got very little in common with the 5D, I'm sure it is a very capable camera. In my most humble opinion, there is no alternative to the 5D Mark II in this price range. I will rest my case with that. :)

[PappasArts]

Very tempted to post my own revised list, already typed up too! Based on my own point of view of course... Some would no doubt disagree with me, just as much as I would disagree with them.

I look forward to see what people do with the GH1. While it's got very little in common with the 5D, I'm sure it is a very capable camera. In my most humble opinion, there is no alternative to the 5D Mark II in this price range. I will rest my case with that. :)


Daniel,

Post your revised list. All info and personal observations can help others that are trying to decide; and in that research sometimes overlook good info that would bring them to a decision...


.

[Kholi]

I think you should if you've used both and can offer an hands-on perspective. More than one opinion from someone who's used more than one camera is great! The unfortunate side of not having used both then offering a perspective is that it comes off as defense with no substantial evidence outside of what others have shown. =T

Take into account Philip Bloom and Hunter Richards. Both have used both and can give examples from first hand experience. Philip still thinks the MKii beats out the GH-1 by far and he can site his experiences. Hunter has his own opinion and it's valid, he's had it in his hands. So on and so forth.

I know I'm willing to take up some advice from someone who's hand experience with more than one system.

[squig]

What's really annoying me is whatever cam I choose GH1, MKII, K-7, I'm stuck with 30p because I won't touch AVCHD. Nikon are the only company doing 24p progressive but they're not talking. so frustrating!

[Daniel L.]

I think you should if you've used both and can offer an hands-on perspective.

I have to agree, that's why I will keep quiet. Who cares what I think, lets see what the camera can do. :beer:

[Kholi]

If I've missed anything on that list, though, please let me know so I can add it.

[squig]

yeah...examples?

[Kholi]

Squig, as soon as I get some lit stuff that belongs to me from the MKii I'll post. You may not agree, but I think a lot of people have seen enough land, sky and trees from the MKii. It deserves more than just documentary style nature footage at this point. I want to do some lighting etc, so it's worth the effort of posting such large files.

The GH-1 stuff is getting Muzzle Flash Treatments right now and then sound treatment.

[PappasArts]

What's really annoying me is whatever cam I choose GH1, MKII, K-7, I'm stuck with 30p because I won't touch AVCHD. Nikon are the only company doing 24p progressive but they're not talking. so frustrating!

Good point,

Either camera at this time, you only can use 30fps.

However the 24fps is coming for the 5D.



In the mean time you should compare the start point of each camera:

GH1----> 720P @ 30fps ( exclusion of the 1080P since its AVCHD codec from comparison )


5D Mark II 1080P----> Down Convert to --> 720P @ 30fps This down convert will have way better 720P than the start of the GH1. You also have a 1080P master too!

Convert either one to 24fps via the process like the one Phil Bloom highlights on his site.

Just some options....




.

[squig]

Squig, as soon as I get some lit stuff that belongs to me from the MKii I'll post. You may not agree, but I think a lot of people have seen enough land, sky and trees from the MKii. It deserves more than just documentary style nature footage at this point. I want to do some lighting etc, so it's worth the effort of posting such large files.


yeah it's interesting the lack of narrative MKII stuff, are we not looking hard enough? There's a couple of features that have been shot with the D90, numerous shorts and tonnes of commercial and creative work. Has the 30p been that stifling? Or are all the creatives too poor for a MKII?

[Kholi]

Actually, yeah Squig. The MKii might cost like 2800 for a body, maybe 2600 if you find a used one...

But to get started it definitely costs more. You need a lens and a card at the very least, and you're not doing too much with it at that point.

Where-as the D90 and GH-1 both come with Kit lenses and are almost half the price of an MKii.

Soo~ yeah.

[Daniel L.]

yeah it's interesting the lack of narrative MKII stuff, are we not looking hard enough?

Where are you looking? Just searched on youtube and vimeo, there are thousands of 5D videos. Easily found ~15 narrative works in just maybe 3 min of looking.

[Kholi]

Links please. I know of three: Hunter's, Matthew Bennet's and that Dinner table scene.

[PappasArts]

yeah it's interesting the lack of narrative MKII stuff, are we not looking hard enough? There's a couple of features that have been shot with the D90, numerous shorts and tonnes of commercial and creative work. Has the 30p been that stifling? Or are all the creatives too poor for a MKII?


The current issue of FIlmMaker Magazine has an article on the filming of " Searching for Sonny" being shot with the 5D. As well it covers two other films using DSLR's HD mode.


.

[Kholi]

Searching for Sonny was just a trailer. A ruse to get some interest in a movie that wasnt' actually being shot yet.

But the trailer looked straight. Out of 1000+ videos, though, you'd think there'd be more.

[Daniel L.]

Here are some quick links that looked like good candidates. I don't have time to watch them and double check, so some may not belong here. Trailers are narrative work too.

http://vimeo.com/3003034
http://vimeo.com/3519976
http://vimeo.com/4858745
http://vimeo.com/4306916
http://vimeo.com/3793978
http://vimeo.com/4507862
http://vimeo.com/2524785
http://vimeo.com/3261177
http://vimeo.com/4541534
http://vimeo.com/4478609
http://vimeo.com/3449805
http://vimeo.com/4541534
http://vimeo.com/4306916
http://vimeo.com/3374151
http://vimeo.com/4478609
http://vimeo.com/4421963
http://vimeo.com/4656911
http://vimeo.com/4423184
http://vimeo.com/3803529
http://vimeo.com/4923155
http://vimeo.com/4160284
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LSdYOYfpf8&fmt=22

There are many, many more. This is just what I found by skimming a small sample.

[Kholi]

Awesome!!! Thanks a lot Daniel. Going to check htem all.

[PappasArts]

Where are you looking? Just searched on youtube and vimeo, there are thousands of 5D videos. Easily found ~15 narrative works in just maybe 3 min of looking.

I know; this claim is nonsense. There are so many clips on there. Why are people so "Lazy" to look for themselves.... I have over 40gigs collected in 8 months.


BTW, what's the difference if its real people talking in front of the 5D or someone reading a script.

Can't you surmise from the footage, an extrapolation of how good a script will play out from that material...

As well your conditions will be controlled on a film location, so you know that what your watching is less than what you'll get in a controlled environment....


I sure can, easily....



.


Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
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.

[PappasArts]

Searching for Sonny was just a trailer. A ruse to get some interest in a movie that wasnt' actually being shot yet.

But the trailer looked straight. Out of 1000+ videos, though, you'd think there'd be more.



Can't slag them for that..

They got coverage in a Magazine that sits in every Barns&Noble/Book stores alike; and Magazine stands across the entire country...




Michael Pappas
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Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
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.

[squig]

not lazy, looked hard found a few but so much garbage to sift through. thx daniel.

[sunburst]

Searching for Sonny .

just checked that out. Funny, that would probably have looked better on
the gh1- lol. - cause it looks like the second shot is OOF.

I should ADD:

I'm certainly not knocking them, they obviously pioneered this camera. BRAVO!
but for that shoot, TODAY, I would choose the gh-1.

[stav1606]

I did there's a spot where she lunges her head forward I froze it there and her head was just a big white blob no detail left at all. anywhere there is movement the codec just falls apart and there is no detail left where the movement is.
No the codec does not fall apart in every movement. I froze it like 60 times and it looked absolutely fine. Can you screen capture the part you are referring to?

[DiscoDapper]

Here's a couple of interesting quotes from a comment on the second video from Daniel L.'s list in regards to panning and jerkiness with a Mkii:

"how many ND filters did you have on lenses?
BTW, I am pretty pissed off by this jerkyness myself, no matter what I do in converting the footage I always get some jerky pans."

"I used an ND8 filter coupled with a polarizer at times. The camera will max to 1/125th shutter speed so you have to compensate by shooting smooth and slow at times. That's a big limitation but what to expect for 3k, right?"

[PappasArts]

Here's a couple of interesting quotes from a comment on the second video from Daniel L.'s list in regards to panning and jerkiness with a Mkii:

"how many ND filters did you have on lenses?
BTW, I am pretty pissed off by this jerkyness myself, no matter what I do in converting the footage I always get some jerky pans."

"I used an ND8 filter coupled with a polarizer at times. The camera will max to 1/125th shutter speed so you have to compensate by shooting smooth and slow at times. That's a big limitation but what to expect for 3k, right?"


This is "FUD" dude! That is pre-manual control 5D issues he is dealing with. The ISO etc was all over the place before the firmware upgrade a day ago.

Second: The use of ND's is no different then you use on a film shoot..




.
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AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

.

[sunburst]

That is pre-manual control 5D issues he is dealing with. The ISO etc was all over the place before the firmware upgrade a day ago.

.

GOOD point. everything we see now has to be taken with a big grain of salt.
Theyre pioneers.

Anything new will be the real deal.

[squig]

No the codec does not fall apart in every movement. I froze it like 60 times and it looked absolutely fine. Can you screen capture the part you are referring to?

it's at 1:55-1:56. but it happens to a lesser extent in every fast motion frame. But I'll say again the punters won't know the difference but I'm highly critical of my work and frame integrity is important to me. Personally I want a digital cinema camera but I don't have the money for a red so I'll struggle with DSLRs until the manufacturers get it right. They are so close. The GH1 is usable and a steal for $1500 but with 24p mjpeg and a higher bit-rate it could be so much more. The fact that Kholi, Hunter, and Bloom haven't tossed it in the bin since the MKII got manual control speaks volumes I think.

[sunburst]

it's at 1:55-1:56. but it happens to a lesser extent in every fast motion frame. But I'll say again the punters won't know the difference but I'm highly critical of my work and frame integrity is important to me. Personally I want a digital cinema camera but I don't have the money for a red so I'll struggle with DSLRs until the manufacturers get it right. They are so close. The GH1 is usable and a steal for $1500 but with 24p mjpeg and a higher bit-rate it could be so much more. The fact that Kholi, Hunter, and Bloom haven't tossed it in the bin since the MKII got manual control speaks volumes I think.

I'm surprised your not leaning toward the canon then. Check out Bloom's Sophia's
People - where he has RETURNED to the MK2.

It's STARTLING good!

http://www.vimeo.com/4704533

{ not to mention he encodes to vimeo top notch! }

[PappasArts]

The fact that Kholi, Hunter, and Bloom haven't tossed it in the bin since the MKII got manual control speaks volumes I think.


Squig,


However both Kholi and Bloom own 5D's..........

For me the 5D is only a 950 dollar difference before tax.

So that's about a 3 day rental in Orange county for the 5D at Sammy's.


However you could:

Buy the 5D; use it for 120 days to make your film, and then sell it.

You would loose no more then a few hundred, if that in a re-sale..

You are getting the best rental deal in the f-ing world. At 275 a day X 120. That rental would cost you 33,000 thousand dollars. The price of a ( RED )

So Buy the 5D and use it for 120 days to shoot the film, and you got a rental for few hundred bucks. You saved 32,000 + dollars..


What's hard about that choice????

Some advice; if your going to be wearing many hats to make your film; one you need to learn well, is how to think like a producer.
You'll be a lot less broke, and get more out of each dollar or nickel...........



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1638289&postcount=97
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84

Facebook:
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.






.

[John Caballero]

it's at 1:55-1:56

I am sorry, but will all due respect that is absolutely laughable. With all the movement, low light, high ISO, etc., etc., one second?, I mean one tiny second ruins the whole thing? My goodnes, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Sorry, but please. The argument about codec breaking should come to a full stop right there.

[Kholi]

Squig,


However both Kholi and Bloom own 5D's..........

For me the 5D is only a 950 dollar difference before tax.

So that's about a 3 day rental in Orange county for the 5D at Sammy's.


However you could:

Buy the 5D; use it for 120 days to make your film, and then sell it.

You would loose no more then a few hundred, if that in a re-sale..

You are getting the best rental deal in the f-ing world. At 275 a day X 120. That rental would cost you 33,000 thousand dollars. The price of a ( RED )

So Buy the 5D and use it for 120 days to shoot the film, and you got a rental for few hundred bucks. You saved 32,000 + dollars..


What's hard about that choice????

Some advice; if your going to be wearing many hats to make your film; one you need to learn well, is how to think like a producer.
You'll be a lot less broke, and get more out of each dollar or nickel...........



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1638289&postcount=97
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84

Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/people/Michael-Pappas/573417404
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.






.

The body is a 960 dollar difference before tax. Add Tax and a Lens and you're talking 400 more on top of that.

It's safe to say the MKii takes more than 3200 to match the shooting kit that you get with the GH-1.

But how much did you pay for your MKii, Pappas? Having fun shootin' with it?

[squig]

well I'm actually in the middle of an online chat with a store haggling over a priced on a MKII hehe

[squig]

they're telling me that the pentax k-7 is on order due in 2-7 days. they have no info on the GH1

it's not so much about the money at this point, I have a $1000 stills shoot next weekend and plenty of lenses

[squig]

you can't talk John with all your D90 bitchin

[squig]

grrr these clowns don't have any DSLRs in stock everything is "2-7 days"

[squig]

I'm still thinking of just grabbing a D5000 for like $600 US to tide me over until the DSLR dust settles

[squig]

I'm going to walk up to the local camera shop and see if I can get some old fashioned service.....yeah I'm dreaming. These online store wankers won't even email me when stock arrives....I have to get back to them for another "chat"

[John Caballero]

you can't talk John with all your D90 bitchin

But I did AFTER I used it for a while. Maybe I will about the GH1 after a few days with it, then I'll go and get the Mark ll and probably won't like it and go and get the Pentax and probably won't like it either and finally go back to the HVX200.

BTW: I was right about the D90, otherwise you would still have it! LOL I am still making money with mine. LOLL!

[PappasArts]

The body is a 960 dollar difference before tax. Add Tax and a Lens and you're talking 400 more on top of that.

It's safe to say the MKii takes more than 3200 to match the shooting kit that you get with the GH-1.

But how much did you pay for your MKii, Pappas? Having fun shootin' with it?


Here's your shooting kit. A Used Canon lens: 100 bucks

Tax is a giving for either camera, if your don't order out of state.


Squig, come on man; stop purposely creating obstacles in your path to make the leap.


I bought two excellent 70's manual lenses for my Canon that shot Anamorphic tests for less than 100 bucks. If I want an auto lens for the Canon, which I own already, however in your case that's a 100 bucks too. However I use only manual lenses.

I think it's easier for you fear the purchase than it is to face the production that follows once you are set with your gear to shoot your film. That's complety understandable squig; production is war, and usually the casualties of that war, are the directors after the dust settles.

The problems is; you erect these non issues against yourself, and they're easily resolved.



.
Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1638289&postcount=97
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84

Facebook:
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.

[Kholi]

Pappas what lenses are you using with your MKii? Which one costs 100.00??

[squig]

But I did AFTER I used it for a while. Maybe I will about the GH1 after a few days with it, then I'll go and get the Mark ll and probably won't like it and go and get the Pentax and probably won't like it either and finally go back to the HVX200.

BTW: I was right about the D90, otherwise you would still have it! LOL I am still making money with mine. LOLL!

I needed some quick cash to fund some lens purchases otherwise I'd still have it.
I did say I was thinking of getting a D5000. I do miss the D90. If they update the firmware I'll buy 2 and I eagerly anticipate the D300s/D400.

[squig]

Squig, come on man; stop purposely creating obstacles in your path to make the leap.

I think it's easier for you fear the purchase than it is to face the production that follows once you are set with your gear to shoot your film. That's complety understandable squig; production is war, and usually the casualties of that war, are the directors after the dust settles.

The problems is; you erect these non issues against yourself, and they're easily resolved.

.

lenses aren't really an issue, I can get adapters for my nikon and M42 glass for almost nothing. I am the director, producer and DOP so it's an internal war.

the only thing's holding me back are 30p codec issues and pending releases. remember this doesn't have to be the cam I shoot the film on, I have 6 months to make that decision. And it's only the brain easily replaceable. I just need something for 6 months to play with at film school so the GH1 fits the bill nicely even with its crappy codec issues that can be worked around and there's always 30p mjpeg to 24p conversion.

but I'm curious about these obstacles I'm unaware I'm creating please explain?

[PappasArts]

Pappas what lenses are you using with your MKii? Which one costs 100.00??

You can get tons of M42 mounts for that. My M42 mounts are Vivitar 70's series 1. The Vivitar's have a strong front mount which I needed cause the weight of the different Anamorphic adapters.







Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1638289&postcount=97
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84

Facebook:
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.

[squig]

there's loads of good $100 lenses. I bought a minolta rokkor MC 50mm f/1.4 for $60 US. really nice bokeh up there with the zeiss IMO. unfortunately to use it on the MKII I have to use an adapter with glass that might degrade the image a bit but it might look really cool and soften the MKII a bit. Loads of very good cheap M42 lenses out there easily adaptable to the MKII same goes for the GH1 of-course. I've been putting together a very interesting collection of lenses and can't wait to try them all.

[Kholi]

Oh okay, so you got some M42's and adapters with them. Gotcha.

Dude how come you're not showing some MKii footage of your own? You've been a huge proprietor of the camera and now you're selling Squig on it. Show this guy some raw footage already.

I'd like to see your footage with the anamorphic front adapters on your MKii.

[John Caballero]

I did say I was thinking of getting a D5000.

I recently held one of those at Adorama and on the LCD at least it seemed that it did not showed as much jello. I might put a card next time I go and shoot some tests out of curiosity.

[squig]

refresh my memory which anamorphic adapters are you using pappas?

I have an isco-54 an optex 16:9 and an iscorama anamorphic lens, I think it's a 50mm? but it's not marked and I haven't tried it yet. also got a 10mm isco c mount but I think it will vignette far to much even on the GH1

[PappasArts]

I can get adapters for my nikon and M42 glass for almost nothing. --- issues that can be worked around and there's always 30p mjpeg to 24p conversion.

So if your willing to use this work around, why not do it with the 5D and get the kick a$$ image that GH1 will not deliver.

So you do have the lenses. So why the F about how you needed to spend over 3200 for the 5D. Your not making sense Sir...... You have every thing you need except the Nikon or m42 to Canon adapters. Those are dirt cheap..


So what's your issue to make the leap.....?






Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84

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.

[squig]

I recently held one of those at Adorama and on the LCD at least it seemed that it did not showed as much jello. I might put a card next time I go and shoot some tests out of curiosity.

It has exactly the same internals as the D90 so jello should be identical, it's just a bit lighter and has different body/ext controls. essentially a cheaper to produce D90

[Kholi]

refresh my memory which anamorphic adapters are you using pappas?

I have an isco-54 an optex 16:9 and an iscorama anamorphic lens, I think it's a 50mm? but it's not marked and I haven't tried it yet. also got a 10mm isco c mount but I think it will vignette far to much even on the GH1\

Yeah I'm seriously interested in that as well. What Pappas is using with his MKii and Anamorphics.

Footage!?!?!? I wanna see.

[Kholi]

So if your willing to use this work around, why not do it with the 5D and get the kick a$$ image that GH1 will not deliver.

So you do have the lenses. So why the F about how you needed to spend over 3200 for the 5D. Your not making sense Sir...... You have every thing you need except the Nikon or m42 to Canon adapters. Those are dirt cheap..


So what's your issue to make the leap.....?

.


Not meaning to speak for Squig, but in general I see a LOT of MKii proponents on several boards but oddly enough, most don't even own one and it's been out for several months.

There are a few here pitching the MKii as if they've been personally shooting with one and have invested the money, but really haven't. We should be asking those same people trying to sell others on the MKii the same question:

If it's so bad ass, why do they not own one after so many months??

[squig]

So if your willing to use this work around, why not do it with the 5D and get the kick a$$ image that GH1 will not deliver.

So you do have the lenses. So why the F about how you needed to spend over 3200 for the 5D. Your not making sense Sir...... You have every thing you need except the Nikon or m42 to Canon adapters. Those are dirt cheap..


So what's your issue to make the leap.....?



best price on the MKII is $3750 AUD. with exchange rates, GST and shipping it's about the same out of the US or HK.

Well 24p is probably the main thing, sure I can do it in post but it will take forever on my macbook pro. I know it's coming but until you have it you have nothing. The other thing is you take more of a resale hit on more expensive kit and the D300s is not far away. but there is also something in my head that is holding me back that I haven't quite figured out yet. I guess the versatility of the GH1 has something to do with it.

[squig]

just to throw a spanner in the works have a look at this http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=173320

[squig]

No single person is gonna sell me on anything. I've been following every DSLR since they came out and I think I know pretty much everything about their pitfalls and advantages. But at the end of the day you're not really gonna know until you pick one up and shoot with it. If I didn't buy a D90 I might still be here scratching my head thinking about whether it's for me......which is what I'm doing right now lol. Come wednesday next week I'll have a new DSLR and if it's not for me I'll sell it and get another one. but I won't sell it until I replace it! I've learnt that lesson

[Kholi]

No single person is gonna sell me on anything. I've been following every DSLR since they came out and I think I know pretty much everything about their pitfalls and advantages. But at the end of the day you're not really gonna know until you pick one up and shoot with it. If I didn't buy a D90 I might still be here scratching my head thinking about whether it's for me......which is what I'm doing right now lol. Come wednesday next week I'll have a new DSLR and if it's not for me I'll sell it and get another one. but I won't sell it until I replace it! I've learnt that lesson


What's the bit-rate on the T1i? H.264? can't find any info on it anywhere

And they call me the ADD/SCHIZO.

LoL. Just pokin' at you.

[squig]

hehe smartarse

if I got one it would just be a plaything, but what is the bloody bit-rate? 720p 30fps that's fine. It probably looks better than the GH1 codec if it has a decent bit-rate. I might only keep the next cam I buy for a few weeks, its just better to buy and sell than rent for the shoot.

[Kholi]

LOL. S'all good. You're not the only one around here doing it. I suggest everyone who's pushing or telling someone to buy this or that....

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/__jFgOqdirRY/SadO9qQtwSI/AAAAAAAACJU/k7GrfMZraBA/s400/man_eating_money.jpg

That way we know how serious you are about your claims, you know.

Need more pain killers~

[squig]

hehe, the dude says it's about 26Mbps VBR on the 500D, that blows the GH1 AVCHD away. shame there's no manual control and jello.

being without a camera for a while has been good in that it's made me think about how seriously I want to get into filmmaking.

[squig]

g/f give you a beating again?

shoulda taken her out to dinner before you pissed away all your money on 3 DSLR's

[SonicStates]

Squiq, still want that GH1 mjpeg stuff?

[squig]

Squiq, still want that GH1 mjpeg stuff?

please

[SonicStates]

it's in HD mode (but the manual says it's still Standard Def) 1280X720. Shutter 30 and 60 (you'll be able to tell which is which obviously)
Night stuff ISO was cranked up pretty high if not max (1600 in this case)
Was shot on the fly. Late after coming back from the office. Today on the way to a meeting (enjoy the soundtrack in the car...get on up!)
All shots wide (I think)
Will PM the location.

[squig]

thx mate

[paulgandersman]

i would love to be able to play with it too sonic, if its not too much a burden :D

[SonicStates]

:thumbup:

[Uwe Lansing]

Ha ha... unbelievable, 8 postings consecutively and story time - always the same... over and over again. A waste of time. Squig, maybe your doctor can tell you the right gear for your purpose?

[squig]

it's in HD mode (but the manual says it's still Standard Def) 1280X720. Shutter 30 and 60 (you'll be able to tell which is which obviously)
Night stuff ISO was cranked up pretty high if not max (1600 in this case)
Was shot on the fly. Late after coming back from the office. Today on the way to a meeting (enjoy the soundtrack in the car...get on up!)
All shots wide (I think)
Will PM the location.

I have to say sonic I'm very disappointed with your mjpeg footage, I've pixel peeped all the way through it and there's no boobs not even a nipple flash!

I don't know if it's made the decision easier or harder but the mjpeg certainly handles motion better than AVCHD, it looks more like film grain rather than blocky mud.

[squig]

Ha ha... unbelievable, 8 postings consecutively and story time - always the same... over and over again. A waste of time. Squig, maybe your doctor can tell you the right gear for your purpose?

hehe, well I was just watching quantum of solace thinking "could I shoot any of this with the GH1" and the answer was "nope". So I'm hanging back over the MKII side of the fence but I have this feeling that Nikon are going to get it right with the D300s/D400 and very soon. My doctor, you mean my shrink. I don't need a doctor I need a clairvoyant.

[Nitsuj]

Haha... dude! Now you are on about D300s/D400s. How on earth do you get anything done in a day? You might as well close your eyes and put your finger on one. Which ever that is, go with it and run brah.

[mhood]

...and don't forget to include the iPhone, huh? ;-)

[squig]

Haha... dude! Now you are on about D300s/D400s. How on earth do you get anything done in a day? You might as well close your eyes and put your finger on one. Which ever that is, go with it and run brah.

I've been on about the Nikon for ages, it's imminent arrival is the only thing holding me back. I don't get anything done I have 2 baby girls!

[John Caballero]

Olympus is announcing something soon. That would really make it real hard. Oh and Samsung is announcing something soon. That would make it really complicated...

[squig]

I'll get something come wednesday. watch nikon announce something amazing on Thursday

[Ian-T]

Ya'll are makin me dizzy. Ha Squig...that's the story of my life.

[squig]

Ya'll are makin me dizzy. Ha Squig...that's the story of my life.

ok you buy one on tuesday then so I will hear about the nikon before I buy mine

[squig]

Ya'll are makin me dizzy. Ha Squig...that's the story of my life.

it was the pixel peeping that made you dizzy

[SonicStates]

I have to say sonic I'm very disappointed with your mjpeg footage, I've pixel peeped all the way through it and there's no boobs not even a nipple flash!

I don't know if it's made the decision easier or harder but the mjpeg certainly handles motion better than AVCHD, it looks more like film grain rather than blocky mud.

Man, you are gonna give me some kind of reputation with that kind of post!!!....

pm you later alright?

[Jean Dantes]

Only problem is it's not just the camera movement that creates mud. subject movement does it too to a lesser extent. So if you can get your actors to stand still for the duration of your film you'll be fine. I know I'm detecting this by freezing frames but it's happening to every frame where there is movement and I value the integrity of my frames.

Damn...if it's even happening to character movement, this sounds more serious then I thought...

Is this something a firmware update could fix, or is this beyond a firmware update?

[Daniel L.]

The "mud" is not the result of a pan, it is due to rapid changes frame to frame. Cars speeding by, pulling focus, rapid movement, pans, rotation, and vibration will all have the same effect to some degree.

Most of the problems you should not notice during playback unless it's really bad. For example, the train videos posted a while back... So, if you usually can't notice it unless you pause and examine each frame should you care? Depends..

The real trouble really comes out when doing post work like keying, tracking, and color timing. They all heavily depend on having a good frame by frame source, once the video begins to fall apart just a little you are faced with big problems. Keying and tracking will immediately begin to fail, and color will break down due to inconsistencies.

How much of a problem this is always depends on the circumstance. What shutter speed, what camera mode, the subject, lighting, etc... That does not mean you can't use the GH1 for keying... Of course you can, tracking too. Just have to be more careful.

IMO the real danger of this is not that there can be a problem under certain circumstances... It's that since there is no live output during capture, you may only discover the problem in post. By then it's too late.

[squig]

I've ordered 2 nikon to EOS mount adapters....now I have to get a MKII :kali: AVCHD

now I can sleep

[andrzejkra]

Damn...if it's even happening to character movement, this sounds more serious then I thought...

Is this something a firmware update could fix, or is this beyond a firmware update?

Maybe you should go look at the clips that he was talking about and judge for yourself. You really have no measure of the 'seriousness' of this if you are just basing your opinion on 6 screen shots floating around, 1 or 2 clips of bad footage and the opinions of others people who are also looking at the same highly biased sampling of content. All the while ignoring the input of professionals who have actually put the camera to good use and keep pointing out that it produces excellent images in the vast majority of situations even with the 'broken' 1080 codec.

Who on here would even know if a firmware update will fix it? Why would anyone be able to answer this question except as another token of useless hearsay.

[upshot]

I've ordered 2 nikon to EOS mount adapters....now I have to get a MKII :kali: AVCHD

now I can sleep

Finally.... may your marriage be filled with joy and happiness. You may now kiss the lcd. (and take a loooong honeymoon :kiss: please?)

Seriously, enjoy and all the best.

[Nighthawk]

now I can sleep

...and not on the fence ;).

[Daniel L.]

A lot of people will never notice the "mud", I don't think that should be the greatest deciding factor.

The camera is only as good as the filmmaker. Having a GH1, 5D, RED, or Arriflex 435 won't necessarily mean your work will be better. The GH1 is a good camera, it won't be great for everyone but good enough for many. It's a bargain either way.

[Boz]

I'm on the fence as well, but not as flip-floppy as Squig. I did cancel my GH1 preorder. So, now I'm waiting to see what happens with GH1 while keeping my eye on development of the 60D (if it has the same features as the 5Dii just with smaller APS-C sensor, then sold!) and the D400. I don't need a camera NOW, so I can hang out a bit and see what happens. Who ever gets it right first gets my $$. :)

[Car3o]

I'm on the fence as well, but not as flip-floppy as Squig. I did cancel my GH1 preorder. So, now I'm waiting to see what happens with GH1 while keeping my eye on development of the 60D (if it has the same features as the 5Dii just with smaller APS-C sensor, then sold!) and the D400. I don't need a camera NOW, so I can hang out a bit and see what happens. Who ever gets it right first gets my $$. :)

buy a RED

[Barry_Green]

buy a RED
Red One debuted with skew, rolling shutter issues, complaints about noisy footage in Redcode 36, crashing, breaking cast parts, infrared issues, sub-par sound quality, a replaced lens mount, and probably a few dozen more serious question marks. Heck, it's still being updated frequently, it's not "there" yet. In fact, they recalled the entire first batch of cameras completely and re-issued brand new ones, adding an "X" after the serial number (so if you had unit #34, you now have unit #34X). Then they recalled all the cameras to replace the audio boards with high-quality audio boards.

Every new camera has issues.

[DrBlaz]

it seems to happen ocassionally when paning, when moving, when focusing, but not always.

the mud means you must check every scene just after taking it, so the GH1 workflow should be:

1- recording lets say a 10 mins scene
2- check the scene during 10 mins trying to see if there is mud
3- if (mud) goto 1
4- continue to next scene


lets hope panasonic release a firmware update, this is a shame every cheap avchd cam I've checked don't have this problem, even the photo cams

[upshot]

Every new camera has issues.

That's the truf. and that's why panny has to get this coke moving so we can figure out what blend of soda is going to keep my clientele coming back for more. :thumbup:

[Barry_Green]

That's what I'm trying to figure out, and Kholi as well, and commanderspike made a pretty good post about it.

Fact is, if this had been released at the $4,000 to $6,000 price point, by the broadcast division, I would be screaming holy hell at them right now, just like I did about HDV. At that price point, and aimed at professionals, it would be completely unacceptable.

But at $1500, and aimed at consumers, and with all else that it's got going for it, that tips the scale to the point of "heck yeah, let's make this thing work!"

[John Caballero]

Maybe you should go look at the clips that he was talking about and judge for yourself. You really have no measure of the 'seriousness' of this if you are just basing your opinion on 6 screen shots floating around, 1 or 2 clips of bad footage and the opinions of others people who are also looking at the same highly biased sampling of content. All the while ignoring the input of professionals who have actually put the camera to good use and keep pointing out that it produces excellent images in the vast majority of situations even with the 'broken' 1080 codec.

Who on here would even know if a firmware update will fix it? Why would anyone be able to answer this question except as another token of useless hearsay.

Very well said for your very first post. Welcome. The fact is that the pros have spoken and that what counts. That dancing piece was excellent. It showed the dynamic range, the color and the movement at its best with what is called "motion blur". The fact is that nobody is forced to buy any camera and that includes the GH1. Those of us, that are commited to it and eagerly awaitng for it, will be very happy if we follow the instructions well. Thanks to Philip, Kholi, Hunter, Barry, Sonic and all the others that have contributed their input. Their efforts at this very early stage will help us shoot excellent stuff. Thanks again.

[Jean Dantes]

That's what I'm trying to figure out, and Kholi as well, and commanderspike made a pretty good post about it.

Fact is, if this had been released at the $4,000 to $6,000 price point, by the broadcast division, I would be screaming holy hell at them right now, just like I did about HDV. At that price point, and aimed at professionals, it would be completely unacceptable.

But at $1500, and aimed at consumers, and with all else that it's got going for it, that tips the scale to the point of "heck yeah, let's make this thing work!"

I totally agree with you Barry! But for us poor bastards in Australia, Panasonic is asking $3300AUD (roughly $2650USD) for a GH1. So for broke-ass fulltime University students like me, every dollar counts :)

However, people have told me that the GH1 is producing better images then a Sony EX1, is this true? If so, even $3300AUD sounds good!

I am really hoping that the GH1 does well. I've dreamed about owing a camera that can deliver a high-pixel progressive image, shallow DoF, interchangeable lens, all for a decent price for over a decade now...I think we all have lol :)

I just hope Panasonic is watching these forums, and adheres to things like the petition begun by Isaac Brody!

[Jean Dantes]

Maybe you should go look at the clips that he was talking about and judge for yourself. You really have no measure of the 'seriousness' of this if you are just basing your opinion on 6 screen shots floating around, 1 or 2 clips of bad footage and the opinions of others people who are also looking at the same highly biased sampling of content. All the while ignoring the input of professionals who have actually put the camera to good use and keep pointing out that it produces excellent images in the vast majority of situations even with the 'broken' 1080 codec.

Who on here would even know if a firmware update will fix it? Why would anyone be able to answer this question except as another token of useless hearsay.

I agree with what you're saying, and I've watched Bloom's 'Joshua Tree' video quite a few times over since the day he posted it (and every other GH1 video on Vimeo). I am not basing my opinion on six-screenshots, or one of two clips of bad footage, I'm trying to base my opinion off whether $3300 is worth it or not. I know there are people on here who are able to buy cameras left, right, and centre, and not think twice, but some of us have to be extremely cautious with our money; especially when we are being made to pay through the nose down here in Australia. And so far, Bloom seems to be the only 'professional' that has made something 'professional' - a piece that was not only commissioned by Panasonic, but he had Zeiss Ultra Primes, a PL mount adaptor, a mattebox, and filters, to produce his piece (so chuck another couple thousand dollars on top of that $3300). So I think it is rather 'serious' if I'm paying $3300 for a product that isn't delivering the "beautiful, richly detailed movies in full HD" that Panasonic states on their website.

Don't get me wrong, I want this camera to succeed. But like I said before, I wanna know just exactly what I'm paying for here. Surely you can understand my curiosity??? :huh:

[PappasArts]

So, now I'm waiting to see what happens with GH1 while keeping my eye on development of the 60D (if it has the same features as the 5Dii just with smaller APS-C sensor, then sold!) :)


The 60D for sure is coming! I think that's one of a few reasons the Firmware came out. I think to make nice with current 5D owners before a more refined and the very latest technology installed in a newer camera gets released. Remember the 5D MII is almost a year old. The head of Canon spoke candid during a PMA interview with DPreview.com; and even stated that a lower price camera can leap upper ones that might be a little older in the technology implantations of the time of their design; ( referencing to the 5D leaping the 1DS questions ) that was just the way technology works he basically said. The 60D line is 1,700 approx costing camera. Not really far in price form the 5D. It will be interesting...

However this is interesting:

B&H just put up the Nimar UNDERWATER HOUSING for the Canon EOS 60D on their site.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/621748-REG/Nimar_NI303D1607_UNDERWATER_HOUSING_f_CANON_EOS.ht ml



.

[andrzejkra]

Very well said for your very first post. Welcome. The fact is that the pros have spoken and that what counts. That dancing piece was excellent. It showed the dynamic range, the color and the movement at its best with what is called "motion blur". The fact is that nobody is forced to buy any camera and that includes the GH1. Those of us, that are commited to it and eagerly awaitng for it, will be very happy if we follow the instructions well. Thanks to Philip, Kholi, Hunter, Barry, Sonic and all the others that have contributed their input. Their efforts at this very early stage will help us shoot excellent stuff. Thanks again.

Hey thanks! I have actually been reading these forums for several years but never felt a need to post since the answers to most of my questions are usually already dealt with in great detail. These forums are an absolute treasure to anyone involved in video production.

The fact that the GH1 can shoot in HD with interchangeable lenses (and a m4/3 body that will even let me use the ultra fast c-mount canon lens that I bought years ago for 2$ at the flea market... to use as a stylish paperweight) at this price point is amazing even with the poor 1080 codec. I don't even use the 1080 mode on the HVX because it has it's own set of issues and just seems to produce better results at 720. Not to mention how terrible almost every wide angle shot looks on the HVX.

I don't mean to evangelize the GH1. I also hope that the codec can be improved with a firmware update - but even with a firmware update, I can guarantee you that this still won’t be a perfect camera. You will still have to understand how it will behave under different conditions. If you guys are not sure if this is the camera for you, that's fine - I understand that. The MKII and D90, however, do not offer any more freedom from limitations than the GH1 or any other camera.

I guess the point is that making good art is in part a product of the limitations that technology imposes on us. I'm sure Da'Vinci would've found it easier to take a 14 megapixel photograph of some girl called Mona Lisa than to spend months painting on a canvas with primitive pigments – but if he did, we wouldn’t have the Mona Lisa. Not to say that having better technology is a bad thing, but technology by definition is only as good as the person using it and even the most flawed technology, in the right hands, will create something amazing.

[squig]

well I got 4 hours sleep till the baby woke me :zombie_smiley:

Mud was certainly a factor in my decision. If panny puts out a model with a pro codec I'll be all over it like a fly on shi*. The sticker price here in Aus is insulting, it's far more expensive than anywhere else in the world. It's a shame because the GH1 is definitely the winner in a few areas like less jello, AF tracking, swing out LCD, lens options, smaller, lighter, cheaper (not much cheaper here) etc.

Barry is right when he says it will work if you use it within it's capabilities but then you watch a hollywood film and think could I have shot this with the GH1 and in my case the answer was no. I'll certainly have to work harder to get certain shots with the MKII without the AF and added jello but I like doing things the hard way. I just knew if I got the GH1 I'd always be thinking "what if" about the MKII.

I still think great work will be done with the GH1 as was and is being done with the crippled D90. The MKII is a big investment with all the glass, rig, filters, follow focus etc so the GH1 is still a bargain. As I've said before you won't really know if it's for you until you try it. I'm not sure full frame is for me so I might be replacing it shortly with something else from Nikon, Samsung or Pentax.

Jean if you know somebody in HK they're about $1900 plus shipping and GST. The Nikon D300s/D400 should be out soon and will probably retail for under 3 grand, no confirmed specs yet but I expect it will be nice. The pentax K-7 $1500 AUD looks really promising, no manual control yet but robust codec and nice picture from the one clip out there I've seen.

[Kholi]

well I got 4 hours sleep till the baby woke me :zombie_smiley:

Mud was certainly a factor in my decision. If panny puts out a model with a pro codec I'll be all over it like a fly on shi*. The sticker price here in Aus is insulting, it's far more expensive than anywhere else in the world. It's a shame because the GH1 is definitely the winner in a few areas like less jello, AF tracking, swing out LCD, smaller, lighter, cheaper (not much cheaper here) etc.

Barry is right when he says it will work if you use it within it's capabilities but then you watch a hollywood film and think could I have shot this with the GH1 and in my case the answer was no. I'll certainly have to work harder to get certain shots with the MKII without the AF and added jello but I like doing things the hard way. I just knew if I got the GH1 I'd always be thinking "what if" about the MKII.

I still think great work will be done with the GH1 as was and is being done with the crippled D90. The MKII is a big investment with all the glass, rig, filters, follow focus etc so the GH1 is still a bargain. As I've said before you won't really know if it's for you until you try it. I'm not sure full frame is for me so I might be replacing it shortly with something else from Nikon, Samsung or Pentax.

Jean if you know somebody in HK they're about $1900 plus shipping and GST. The Nikon D300s/D400 should be out soon and will probably retail for under 3 grand, no confirmed specs yet but I expect it will be nice. The pentax K-7 $1500 AUD looks really promising, no manual control yet but robust codec and nice picture from the one clip out there I've seen.

Quoting for when you change your mind in a few hours.

[squig]

yeah I've just been thinking about the hell I'm going to cop from you guys when I do. I said I was going to "get" a MKII. That may mean "rent" hehe

[andrzejkra]

I understand your curiosity, and I feel the same way as you do - but I think a 'wait and see' approach is better than beating the dead horse. We really have a very very very poor understanding of this issue.

The phenomena going on here is that over the past few weeks, the problem keeps looking worse and worse - not because we have a better understanding of it, but because people are amplifying it as the hearsay and uninformed opinions built on top of each other.

What I would like to see is that our understanding of this issue catches up with people's opinions of the issue. And until that happens we are all just speculating.

As you said, there has been very little professional work done, the camera is being shipped as we speak. Soon there will be thousands of users who will be able to assess it, and soon we will have the whole picture of what is going on.

On this topic, Kohil - I have been anticipating the test footage you told us about like if it was Star Wars 7 - is it ever going to come?

[Kholi]

The 60D for sure is coming! I think that's one of a few reasons the Firmware came out. I think to make nice with current 5D owners before a more refined and the very latest technology installed in a newer camera gets released. Remember the 5D MII is almost a year old. The head of Canon spoke candid during a PMA interview with DPreview.com; and even stated that a lower price camera can leap upper ones that might be a little older in the technology implantations of the time of their design; ( referencing to the 5D leaping the 1DS questions ) that was just the way technology works he basically said. The 60D line is 1,700 approx costing camera. Not really far in price form the 5D. It will be interesting...

However this is interesting:

B&H just put up the Nimar UNDERWATER HOUSING for the Canon EOS 60D on their site.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/621748-REG/Nimar_NI303D1607_UNDERWATER_HOUSING_f_CANON_EOS.ht ml



.

That water housing looks bad-ass. I'll trade in my MKii for a 60D if that means I can go back to 35mm or pseudo FOV etc. Love the stills from the MKii, video looks great but it's just missing something for me.

60D might fix that.

[Kholi]

I understand your curiosity, and I feel the same way as you do - but I think a 'wait and see' approach is better than beating the dead horse. We really have a very very very poor understanding of this issue.

The phenomena going on here is that over the past few weeks, the problem keeps looking worse and worse - not because we have a better understanding of it, but because people are amplifying it as the hearsay and uninformed opinions built on top of each other.

What I would like to see is that our understanding of this issue catches up with people's opinions of the issue. And until that happens we are all just speculating.

As you said, there has been very little professional work done, the camera is being shipped as we speak. Soon there will be thousands of users who will be able to assess it, and soon we will have the whole picture of what is going on.

On this topic, Kohil - I have been anticipating the test footage you told us about like if it was Star Wars 7 - is it ever going to come?

Eh? the stuff I shot or the Heineken stuff? I have no control over the Heineken stuff... that's what we call work for hire. The stuff that pays you...

As far as the stuff I shot personally it's getting a muzzle flash treatment then sound. Nothing major, just action test stuff, literally walked out back and shot something in the alleyway.

SOon enough.

[sunburst]

WAITING MODE: :huh:

Well I'm not really on a fence - just RE-EXAMING my needs today.

I came here with wind of the gh-1. why ?

1. the FORM FACTOR
2. 1080 p. / auto focus

I thought the gh-1, with it's form factor, 1080p, and DOF, would fit well with
my shooting style, and other cams. [HV20, pocket 720 Sony, etc.] Kind of a high end, run and gun cam.

With my dissapointment, I have gradually been seduced by the MK2. But the
FORM factor doesnt fit with my current needs. I consider the canon, for me, more a studio camera.

And in my studio i shoot MAINLY GREEN SCREEN. { hv20 + adding intensity
card workflow for UNCOMPRESSED 4-2-2} . This is serious shooting, and
I need the BEST WORKFLOW possible, here. { in budget}

Also some HIREZ stills for posters. { medium format? }

The gh1 would have fit in my travel bag and been used, hopefully heavily.
BUT, I'm afraid I'll leave the M2K at home,- worse in storage -, JUST Like my other HEAVY DSLR, which was top rated in it's day, ( but no video), and just
gathers dust. Sure, pull it out for hirez stills, or the odd shoot.

so.......

I could get the mk2 or save the money. Michael Pappas tells me to wait.
I think he's right.

[squig]

I think what I'm really waiting for is something with an APS-C sensor, 24p, less jello, AF, and 70Mbps+ mjpeg. And I think it's in a box somewhere waiting to be shipped. But I'm done waiting and I'm sure you're all done listening to me whinge.

[squig]

That water housing looks bad-ass. I'll trade in my MKii for a 60D if that means I can go back to 35mm or pseudo FOV etc. Love the stills from the MKii, video looks great but it's just missing something for me.

60D might fix that.

lol we both want the same thing

[Kholi]

In defense of all the fence riders: there are several people yappin' about the MKii as if it's the second coming, but most of them don't even have one themselves. So obviously, it's not as clear a choice as they're pitching.

I've used and owned BOTH and it really isn't a clear choice. Be seduced by work, not words. When the Stateside GH-1's hit, people WILL be shooting narrative on it out of the box and you WILL see a plethora of Walk, not Talk.

Judge by that. 60D sounds interesting, just wondering how this one will be crippled. 24P but no manual controls... thanks a lot Canon.

[squig]

The MKII has plenty of flaws but I think I'm aware of most of them but yeah you have to do your homework.

[squig]

I see a big Nikon vs Canon battle coming. The D300s/D400 and 60D are rumored to both be coming out at the same time with a similar spec. At this point I think both companies would be too afraid about losing market share in a depressed market not to put everything they've got into these cams. great for us!

lol the Nikon websites are being updated....I should have bought those adapters sooner

[Daniel L.]

When the Stateside GH-1's hit, people WILL be shooting narrative on it out of the box and you WILL see a plethora of Walk, not Talk.
I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this.. As opposed to what? People have been shooting narrative work with the 5D & D90 since 2008.

[timbook2]

But at $1500, and aimed at consumers, and with all else that it's got going for it, that tips the scale to the point of "heck yeah, let's make this thing work!"

exactly the reason why I got it and am very happy. I am shooting as much as possible and already tried some nikon glass with the adapter I got: awesome!!!

I am very happy so far....I will try some " red ants in underwear" shots and see if PAL behaves differently

[Kholi]

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this.. As opposed to what? People have been shooting narrative work with the 5D & D90 since 2008.

It's a standalone statement. If anyone's hyper-defensive over their choice of camera they may want to turn the other cheek. Seems like Nikon and Canon owners are QUICK to the defense around here.

[Barry_Green]

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of this.. As opposed to what? People have been shooting narrative work with the 5D & D90 since 2008.
Where'd the 5D or D90 come from? Kholi said "when the cameras hit, you'll see people shooting with them." Meaning, there'll be lots of footage out there once there are lots of cameras out there for people to use.

[Daniel L.]

Where'd the 5D or D90 come from? Kholi said "when the cameras hit, you'll see people shooting with them." Meaning, there'll be lots of footage out there once there are lots of cameras out there for people to use.

Sorry, must be just a misunderstanding on my part. For some time people here were under the impression that nobody was shooting narrative work with the other cameras. The other day I demonstrated how this was false.

When I read:
"When the Stateside GH-1's hit, people WILL be shooting narrative on it out of the box and you WILL see a plethora of Walk, not Talk."

I got the impression that it meant something else. Clearly I took it out of context.

Just one other thing, I don't mean to defend any camera. Only trying to provide a helpful post so people can make informed decisions. For what it's worth, my official position is that if you want a video camera, buy a "video camera".

[squig]

you have to keep things in perspective the D90 is the most crippled cam (and I speak from first hand experience for a change) yet there is some fantastic work out there. The GH1 is a step up in some area's but I can't say I prefer the look of it because I haven't shot with it.

[squig]

thx for those links Dan there was some interesting stuff there

[andrzejkra]

that's what we call work for hire. The stuff that pays you...

Thanks for explaining this. I was wondering why my clients were always throwing those hissy fits when I posted their footage on the internet.


I mean the narrative stuff you shot for the purpose of testing the camera.