When will Macbook Pro be able to handle AVC Intra 100

[jameswmulryan]

OK, so we have this fabulous new format on the 300, 2000, 3000 and P2 Varicams - AVC Intra 100
Rumors have a 4 core MacBook Pro coming out, Leopard is coming out FCP 3 is coming out, this might add up to AVC Intra 100 editing on a Mac laptop by the end of 2009?
Has Panasonic and Apple decided to hold hands on this one?
Please do not suggest PC alternatives. Mac Laptops totally rule the portable editing realm. I know Panasonic makes a PC laptop, could this have any influence on Apple/Panasonic collaborations?
PS Barry you rule, please become a Mac evangelista!!!

[accelv]

AVC Intra 100 RULES! (for now....)

[puredrifting]

I cut AVC Intra 100 on my MacBook Pro today, it's easy, its just Pro Res.

Dan

[jameswmulryan]

Puredrifting, thanks for the info.
are you editing ProRes HQ? Are you using an AJA IO HD
What are you transcode times going from AVC Intra 100 to ProRes? ie how long would it take to
transcode 16G of material. 16G of DVCPROHD 720 24pn takes 8 minutes on my Macbook Pro
Are you using a RAID?

[nsoltz]

I'll be testing some AVC-I footage on my MBPro and will let you know.

Ned Soltz

[Minh]

I just did some quick tests with Jan's 1080p MXF kart footage on my MBP (2.53ghz, 4Gbram) and everything seems to work fine. AVC-I was transferred to Prores HQ. Sure, it was longer to transcode than DVCPRO-HD, but Prores HQ files are larger than DVCPRO-HD files...

[jameswmulryan]

Minh:

So you can edit 1080p Pro Res HQ in FCP on a MacBook Pro, no dropped frames, no audio issues?

What kind of drives are you using?

[puredrifting]

I never tried Pro Res HQ, I have been told several times by editors and compositors who work at a much higher level than I do, that HQ is overkill for most uses, which I agree, based upon data rates. Unlike the prevailing wisdom that many users have, "I need the ultimate quality at all costs", I subscribe to the "use a working resolution that matches how your video will be exhibited" and very little of my footage is shown in theaters. AVC Intra 100 looks beautiful when transcoded to Pro Res.

But regular Pro Res is simple. It took about the same amount of time to transcode the AVC Intra 100 to Pro Res as it takes to ingest regular DVC Pro HD.

[Barry_Green]

this might add up to AVC Intra 100 editing on a Mac laptop by the end of 2009?
Why wait? You can do it today, if you just install Avid Media Composer.
Or you can do it in 4 days (or less, if they keep to their schedule), if you install Adobe CS4 with the 4.1 update. (4.1 update supposed to be downloadable by the end of this month)

Or you can do it today, if you install the Calibrated MXF importer.


Has Panasonic and Apple decided to hold hands on this one?
Apple has apparently decided that they don't have to bother supporting camcorder formats. They think they're too big for that, and that all camcorder manufacturers must now bow to their demands. And the sad thing is, JVC did. And folks think that's actually a good thing! It's insane; JVC comes out with direct quicktime file recording, and everyone's all like "finally! How wonderful is this! native editing right from the camera's recorded media! Just plug in the card and edit!" and I'm like "where have you guys been for the last three years... native editing right from the camera's recorded media is STANDARD on just about EVERY OTHER EDITOR. Plug an SxS card into EDIUS and edit. Plug an SDHC card into Vegas and edit. Plug a P2 card into Premiere Pro and edit.

Sigh.


PS Barry you rule, please become a Mac evangelista!!!
Meh, can't. I've tried a few times, and it's just not compatible with my philosophy. I find the whole thing way too limiting. Whenever someone tells me "It's my way or the highway", I will always take the highway, every time, no questions asked and not a single moment wasted, gladly and quickly and as fast as I can. Apple's all about "it's my way or nothing", so -- no way. Buh-bye.

[puredrifting]

I have been of FCP since it was beta and newly formed from Macromedia. It is a good overall package but I must agree that Apple as of late has basically decided to ignore all of their Pro Apps including FCS. The whole line but especially FCP are way overdue for a facelift, native AVC Intra, AVCHD, etc.

It's kind of like iTunes, iPhones and the App store have basically taken all of Apple's attention and effort for the past couple of years and FCS is being passed by by just about everyone. I still use it because I know it inside out and it is a good editing tool but it is feeling very long in the tooth.

Dan

[alexdias]

For all that I know (and I know a little bit) Apple makes more money selling mp3s and ipods than any other product put together.

I have been a FCP user from the very start too and I also have the impression that Apple has been neglecting the Pro Apps department.
They lost an incredible amount of money with 'Aperture' and I don't think they are willing to invest much more on FCP which is lagging behind everyday. Too bad!

[alexdias]

btw, Apple hardware is not what it used to be, but it's still incredibly stable and reliable.
And the OS is by far the best thing out there.

[Lez]

'FCS is being passed by by just about everyone. I still use it because I know it inside out and it is a good editing tool but it is feeling very long in the tooth. '

????? What other app would you use ... Avid... (no thanks been there done that)..
Premier (nobody going to take you seriously)... Vegas or Edius (well you might as well live on a desert island)...

For all it's flaw's FCP Studio has by far the best bang for buck... when they include Color as a filter within FCP (which I think will be soon) it will also be a pretty sweet editing setup..

[cheezweezl]

Yeah, say what you will about FCP but it is what most people use. AVID is still legit for now but dying quickly. There is no way I could expect to stay working if I used vegas, edius, premiere, etc. Compatibility with other editors in my market is a must. If that means I have to convert some types of footage to prores to edit, so be it. It is a great format. Luckily I am making money editing so my client pays for that time spent.

[puredrifting]

I am not saying that FCP isn't good, it is, it's great. I am editing a web project right now with it as I type this.

But there are a lot of things that have needed revision and attention for years (Media Mangler, Color is great but interface is not so good, basic interface is ancient, underlying Carbon architecture is outdated, lots of little idiosyncrocies and weirdness that you have to just deal with, P2 log and transfer wonkiness with unlinked and incomplete files, etc.)

If I wasn't using FCS, it would be AVID. I work half in entertainment and half in corporate. In entertainment in many areas, AVID is still taken much more serously than FCS. In corporate, they generally could care less what I use, I could be using iMovie.

I definitely agree that FCS is the best value out there for the Mac and media wrangling of all kinds, thats why I use it. But the competition has a lot of features that are superior and if Apple wants to continue to dominate the market, they need to step it up a few notches to keep up.

Dan

[David Saraceno]

Apple has apparently decided that they don't have to bother supporting camcorder formats. They think they're too big for that, and that all camcorder manufacturers must now bow to their demands.

I have to respectfully disagree with Barry here. There are reports that a Panny rep is assisting Apple on the next release of the NLE suite. I don't know if that is true, but it has been reported I believe as early as IBC last year.

Also reported at IBC is native support for AVCIntra in the next version of FCS?

As to native AVCHD support, I to argue for that approach. But native AVCHD for full resolution, RT, full fps editing will invariably require a new, and very powerful computer. To me there paying that price for RT native editing, when invariably your delivery format will be something else does have much value..

I think a better approach is to get the footage to intraframe as quickly as possible.

It provides easier editing, grading, and eventually you have to deliver it in a format other than AVCHD.

FCP, like every NLE out there on either platform, has its positives and negatives.

Pick your tool based on what you see as the workflow that works for you.

best

[Barry_Green]

There are reports that a Panny rep is assisting Apple on the next release. I don't know if that is true, but it has been reported
And I have no doubt that it will be there. But I would be shocked, surprised, floored, blown away, gobsmacked, and otherwise be taken quite unawares if they actually support the camcorder format as it is. Will there be native MXF support? Without it, it doesn't really change all that much. If they continue to demand conversion to quicktime, then I continue to have no interest in switching to their approach. The conversion to quicktime places a wall between the user and their footage. It serves no valid purpose for the user. It only serves apple's interest. I don't really feel like paying a bunch of money to serve the vendor's interest. You want my dough, you'll do it my way, not the other way around. :thumbsup:


Talking about Apple as if it had a personality doesn't make much sense to me.

I talk about it "as if it has a personality" because that's how it was explained to me: Apple has a mission and a goal, they want to enforce that Quicktime becomes THE one and only universal file format for all things media related. Which is why, when it was pointed out clearly enough, I began to lose serious interest in them. They require DVCPRO-HD to be converted to quicktime. Why? No good reason, certainly no reason that supports the user, it's for THEM, not for you. They are supposed to add AVC-I from what I've heard, but it will still require a conversion to Quicktime. Why? Because they say so. Not because there's any benefit to the end user. They may or may not add AVCHD support, but if they do, I am willing to bet it won't be as a direct file, it'll once again require converting to Quicktime. Why? Don't know. Nobody else requires that.

From what I understand, this is a directive that is being enforced on the FCS programmers whether they'd want to do it that way or not. It is a higher-level directive in an attempt to make Quicktime universal.

Why do you think talking about Apple "as if it has a personality" makes no sense? I mean, some things are obvious. Apple eschews user-interchangeable batteries. They like to put in batteries that last about a year, so that you have to replace otherwise perfectly-working equipment (meaning, buy more). They did away with interchangeable batteries on the iPod, they avoided them on the iPhone, and now they've even gone and replaced user-interchangeable batteries on the latest Macbook laptops. There is clearly a mindset, from the top down, that says "get rid of interchangeable batteries." Does this serve the end customer? No, in no discernable way. Hence another reason why I am not tempted by their products.

Panasonic has a "personality" -- they hold to certain tenets that you can find throughout their product line (format compatibility, using the same tape/media regardless of format, etc). Sony certainly has a personality, and largely it's all about "we control the media, we make media and keep it proprietary", etc. There are guiding philosophies established at the top levels of management that permeate throughout how a company operates. If we refer to it as a "personality", well, what else should we call it?

Regardless, the whole discussion started here because james wanted me to become a Mac guru. I have laid out my reasons why that is just not going to happen. Nobody has to agree with me, feel free to pursue your own course however you feel best.

[David Saraceno]

I wasn't referring to you Barry specifically and I actually deleted that reference because it didn't make sense. What I am trying to say is that I don't see a single person directing anything at Apple with regard its proapps.

I'm not fan of the QT or the highway approach that Apple follows.

But I also believe that native support of every format out there doesn't occur for any NLE on any platform.

The cam companies ought to be blamed as much as the NLE companies.

As to Panasonic having a "personality," I don't think so.

It is as much culpable for not supporting on parity Mac computers as Apple is for not support native imports.

I don't think there is much of an argument there.

As you becoming a Mac guru.

Where do I sign the petition?

best

[Barry_Green]

Panasonic's Mac support is certainly nothing to crow about! You're absolutely right on that, and even though I am not a Mac user, I recognize that a whole huge massive chunk of DVXUsers are, and they deserve equal support. I've written many times and bent many ears of factory folks to explain to them that the current situation just isn't satisfactory.

I guess "personality" is the wrong word; "governing philosophy" is probably the better choice. I like Panasonic's lineup because they say "whatever you want, that's what we'll give you"; I don't like Sony's or Apple's attitudes of "whatever's good for us, that's what we'll give you."

Notice there is no reflection on any individual user or their preferences here; please feel free to be happy with whatever you're happy with, and make your choices based on whatever criteria you prioritize.

[SPZ]

From the brief experience I had with ingesting footage in FCP, it seems like it transcodes the footage to Prores 4:2:2, and niot Prores HQ 4:2:2. There's a difference there...

[puredrifting]

I experienced the same. I think there is a setting where you can change that to the HQ though.

Dan

[jameswmulryan]

I think I can live with transcoding. You put your MXF files on one drive, your quicktime Pro Res files on another, they back each other up. Learned this from Shane Ross. Never lost content in the three years I have used FCP. You can't just have FCP ingest, backing up from initial transfer is essential.

I remember when FCP 2 came out at NAB in 2007. Some people were already carping about Apple
shanghaiing talent from Pro Apps to I Pods and the I Phone. But guess what, in those two years, I have captured and edited using Apple and Panasonic, P2 DVCPRO HD instead of Avid and Sony HDCAM and saved big bucks in the process. No replaced tape heads, no alignments, no expensive decks, just me, my laptop and my HVX200-- huge reductions in maintenance and a stunning image from a very stealth HVX 200.
Sure it has noise. Sure you can't hand off a tape. Ever had intermittent drop outs, or audio issues? Clients go apeshit over that kind of inconsistency. Sure it is a pain in the ass to focus and zoom with, but the colors and the codex really rock, and now AVC Intra 100 will demolish XDCAM.
Everyone should get together and sing a kumbia to the iconoclasts.

PS.
Another group of iconoclasts, AJA and RED are definitely not crying about their relationship with Apple.

[cheezweezl]

I am not saying that FCP isn't good, it is, it's great. I am editing a web project right now with it as I type this.

But there are a lot of things that have needed revision and attention for years (Media Mangler, Color is great but interface is not so good, basic interface is ancient, underlying Carbon architecture is outdated, lots of little idiosyncrocies and weirdness that you have to just deal with, P2 log and transfer wonkiness with unlinked and incomplete files, etc.)

ya i agree there are some refinements that could be made. they should take a hard look at pro tools. ya i know it's an audio program but it's stil a non-linear editor and it has an edit window similar to a video timeline. pro tools has been around a long long time and they have refined it to near perfection. apple could "borrow" a few tools and features from pro tools and our lives would be so much easier.

here's one example. when using plugins in PT, you can either apply the plugin to the entire audio track or to a single file itself. if you apply to the track it runs in realtime and remains "live" for adjustments as you go, much like the way fcp deals with plugins. if you apply an effect to a file it is burned in and permanent. this may sound scary but PT does this in a non-destructive way. it creates a new file with the effect applied and replaces the original in the timeline all in one step. the original file is still available in case you decide against the effect later on. this would be very useful in FCP for some effects. for example, twixtor. you use twixtor to retime a clip. the render time is horrendous. what if you could apply twixtor like pro tools does? apply, render once, and you won't have to re-render twixtor every time you apply another plugin or move the clip or change the length etc.. of course we can do this now by exporting and replacing the clip on the timeline manually but it's a bigtime slowdown to do this.

there are also lots of great keyboard shortcuts in PT for trimming clips that FCP doesn't have.

[Cees Mutsaers]

Barry, since you are not a "big fan" of FCS which alternative edditing system do you think is best for edditing AVC-I natively ? At the IBC 2008 I saw a demo of EDIUS 5.0 and was very impressed with the speed of handeling DVCpro HD. I am not sure if it can handle AVC-I natively. What notebook do you think is best (in terms of speed, image quality of the lcd, customer friendliness).



.


Meh, can't. I've tried a few times, and it's just not compatible with my philosophy. I find the whole thing way too limiting. Whenever someone tells me "It's my way or the highway", I will always take the highway, every time, no questions asked and not a single moment wasted, gladly and quickly and as fast as I can. Apple's all about "it's my way or nothing", so -- no way. Buh-bye.

[Jan_Crittenden]

I have to respectfully disagree with Barry here. There are reports that a Panny rep is assisting Apple on the next release of the NLE suite. I don't know if that is true, but it has been reported I believe as early as IBC last year.



We have factory people as well as US based person that works with Apple, Avid Adobe, GrassValley, heck all of our partners. But the driving force is always what they want to do, we don't have the option of telling them that they should do anything. We can suggest, ask, plead even, but the final decision about what any of the partners do is thiers.

And the reality of this thread is that AVC-Intra can be edited on a MAC, it just gets changed to ProRes. Easy enough.

Best,

Jan

[G.P.]

Barry, since you are not a "big fan" of FCS which alternative edditing system do you think is best for edditing AVC-I natively ? At the IBC 2008 I saw a demo of EDIUS 5.0 and was very impressed with the speed of handeling DVCpro HD. I am not sure if it can handle AVC-I natively. What notebook do you think is best (in terms of speed, image quality of the lcd, customer friendliness).

to answer your question about editing, YES EDIUS 5.0 is very speedy with handling the footage and YES it handles AVC-I Nativity with NO problem what so ever. We are testing it as we speak on a Dell Quad Core PC running Vista 32bit.

As for laptops I am not sure what kind of specs you would need but I know that to not have dropped frames you will need a decent speed dual core processor in that laptop.

[Barry_Green]

Barry, since you are not a "big fan" of FCS which alternative edditing system do you think is best for edditing AVC-I natively ?
Any of the alternatives can handle it natively. Avid, EDIUS, or Premiere Pro CS4.1. EDIUS is slick, I'm downloading the 4.1 update today for CS4 so I haven't tried it, but I saw it at NAB and it looked pretty darn good.

As for a laptop, EDIUS can handle AVC-I on a 2.4GHz dual core in 24p with no dropped frames. So if you go with a quad or a 2.8 or faster dual core you should be in decent shape.

[Lez]

Personally I don't see what the issue is with Quicktime... takes just as long to transfer the footage as it does to convert to Quicktime.. what's the advantages editing natively???

When ever you render anything it's going to create a propriety file that is native to the system anyhow... and finalizing the project you going to have to export the project to some other format..

I don't know of any app. that remains native throughout the process and I'm sure there's not an encoder out there that encodes from MXF..

Heck as I remember Avid exports as QT ref or self contained.. While most PC's create an AVI (audio video interleaved).. which is MS version of QT..

Maybe I'm wrong but just don't see the issue...

My 2c

[JohnnyD]

P2, AVC,etc. and editing with Edius is the best I've seen. Everything comes in native. I quit FCP because of the rendering wait, etc. My HP duo laptop with two Hdrives kicks a** with Edius. I shoot alot of VNRs (Video News Release), and have to cut fast, and upload high-rate mp2 files to a FTP for the news.

I also DP and TD for HollywoodPremieres.com ,,,, And after the live stream, I need to edit very fast for the 5 min. replay loop.

I believe ABC or NBC bought over 100 boxes of Edius. I even installed the Edius demo on a 8 core Mac I built for a government agency, and the guy's were blown away on the speed and no rendering of the software.


JohnnyD.

[G.P.]

I just saw in DV magazine that Vegas 9 will support AVC-I Nativity as well... Boy I sure do hate that apple cant step it up with support. They are going to be the ONLY NLE that wont be supporting Nativity.

My only problem with Eduis 5 so far, is having to understand the exporting features, I cant seem to figure it out... coming from a Fianl Cut Pro and Vegas user, this is very different in layout and vocabulary.

[lyonfilms]

Here is a string from the Adobe Forum regarding the AVC-Intra codec specifically working with Premier Pro CS4. Bottom line: at the moment it doesn't work. However, Adobe showed it working at NAB, and the 4.1 update from last week included the presets but it still doesn't work.

The discussion can be found HERE (http://forums.adobe.com/thread/441048?tstart=0).

[timbook2]

I have been of FCP since it was beta and newly formed from Macromedia. It is a good overall package but I must agree that Apple as of late has basically decided to ignore all of their Pro Apps including FCS. The whole line but especially FCP are way overdue for a facelift, native AVC Intra, AVCHD, etc.

It's kind of like iTunes, iPhones and the App store have basically taken all of Apple's attention and effort for the past couple of years and FCS is being passed by by just about everyone. I still use it because I know it inside out and it is a good editing tool but it is feeling very long in the tooth.

Dan

I have been with apple since almost 20 years since I started using motorola chips for music softw ( c-lab notator) in the 80s. So the windoze option was never there ( until I got a spectral synthesis, based on win32 which still runs flawlessly after 14 years)
I do agreee however that apples move into the gadget-consumer realms has changed/damaged their pro-apps behaviour. I have been under NDA for decades and its never been as silent as lately.
This doesnt bother me as long as all formats are workable in FCP and since Dan clearly says: it works, so I keep using it:-)

I dont like AVID...:beer:

[David Saraceno]

Be patient on FCP and AVCIntra.

Announced at IBC in September.

Jan confirmed that Panasonic has been working with Apple re AVCIntra.

Seems that the writing is on the wall.

[Cees Mutsaers]

which labtop do you recommand using EDIUS if you had to buy one now. It should have the pmcia slot and blueray writer.



P2, AVC,etc. and editing with Edius is the best I've seen. Everything comes in native. I quit FCP because of the rendering wait, etc. My HP duo laptop with two Hdrives kicks a** with Edius. I shoot alot of VNRs (Video News Release), and have to cut fast, and upload high-rate mp2 files to a FTP for the news.

I also DP and TD for HollywoodPremieres.com ,,,, And after the live stream, I need to edit very fast for the 5 min. replay loop.

I believe ABC or NBC bought over 100 boxes of Edius. I even installed the Edius demo on a 8 core Mac I built for a government agency, and the guy's were blown away on the speed and no rendering of the software.


JohnnyD.

[Barry_Green]

Lenovo, hands down.

[JohnnyD]

Lenovo, hands down.

Yes, Lenovo is a great laptop. But, if you follow HP's website, sometimes you will see 33% off on their laptops. I saved almost $400. I built my 17 inch laptop online with 2 harddrives (7200 rpm), fast graphic card,etc. Arrived in two weeks.
All of the new laptops have the Express slot. I bought a PCMIA to Express slot adapter, works great for my P2 cards.

I also built a new i7 box with a i7 920, overclocked to 3.4.mhz. Man, this box screams! I can see 8 virtual cores on this baby. Edius just works great with this box. I also bought a $87 dollar PCMIA internal reader that plugs into the PCI slot, and installs in an empty front slot.

Actually, most of the time I edit right off the P2 in the camera, via firewire or USB. I have to work fast.

On one job, I shot P2 HD, edited in Edius, output back to P2, ran over to my dub house with my HPX500, pluged into the Sony HDcam deck via SDI, walked out with a HDcam master tape for a show at the House of Blues. Talking about saving money. No more renting HDcam decks.

JohnnyD

[Martins Video]

You have to change the transcode in the Pref setting in Log & Transfer. Upper right hand corner Sprocket. Option there to ProRes HQ.

[Cees Mutsaers]

any particular type




Lenovo, hands down.

[Barry_Green]

ThinkPad R or ThinkPad T. Both have the PCMCIA slot and the option of an internal (removable) blu-ray writer.

[Spec-Comm]

We have been seeing great results from the 1 Beyond turnkey laptops. This one has a desktop quad core processor built into it and you can get them with multiple HDD built in for RAID setups etc. These mixed with Edius5 and you'll be editing fast, natively on your lap. It why we became a dealer for these guys. They also offer the Wrangler which is a pretty cool setup.

http://www.1beyond.com/products/GoFlex317HD.asp?search=laptops

Sincerely,

Andrew Hoffman
Vice President
Specialized Communications Corp.
www.spec-comm.com
andrewh@spec-comm.com

[Cees Mutsaers]

Thanks Barry I will have a look at the specs on there site. I am slowly moving from MBP to pc thoughts because when I read the Macrumor form a lot of problems keep popping up as well.



ThinkPad R or ThinkPad T. Both have the PCMCIA slot and the option of an internal (removable) blu-ray writer.

[pkendall]

can they call it something else besides "AVC Intra 100" its just as bad as trying to say "SXS"