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squig
05-20-2009, 07:43 AM
This thing does 57Mbps 720p 30p mjpeg

http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/05/20/official-pentax-unveils-the-k-7-dslr/

FatDaddy
05-20-2009, 07:54 AM
Nice. Gotta love competition!

upshot
05-20-2009, 08:11 AM
oh snap!

Where did you see the 57Mbps stat?

txsbluesguy
05-20-2009, 08:16 AM
so far the most is on the pentax forum compiled by a guy named "falconeye" his take is below

basically mjepg in avi wrapper

New from http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/603606-post3676.html in THE THREAD:

Movie (All AVI/MJPEG at 30 fps):

format *quality* "duration until 4GB full" -> MBit/s data rate / "kByte/image frame"

1536 x 1024p *** 7:23 -> 74.0 / 316
1536 x 1024p ** 10:22 -> 52.7
1536 x 1024p * 14:40 -> 37.2

1280 x 720p *** 9:26 -> 57.9 / 247
1280 x 720p ** 13:19 -> 41.0
1280 x 720p * 18:37 -> 28.4

640 x 416p *** 31:55 -> 17.1 / 73
640 x 416p ** 41:44 -> 13.1
640 x 416p * 60:57 -> 9.0 / 38


74.0 MBit/s or 9.2 MByte/s is twice the data rate of a Canon 5Dmk2, so far industry's best. Quality would be comparable, because of MJPEG vs. H.264.

Earlier in this thread, I had computed ~250 kB would be a good quality (*** JPEG) for a video frame image. The K20D 21 fps burst image are about 900 kB each, but compression quality hasn't been their problem http://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif


Given that a 1024p 3:2 video stream would be free of motion compression artifacts, this is very good news.

Let's hope that the K-7 1536 x 1024 mode isn't really 768 x 1024 internally (as with K20D). Or at least, that the 720p mode is a true one.


oh snap!

Where did you see the 57Mbps stat?

upshot
05-20-2009, 08:37 AM
format *quality* "duration until 4GB full" -> MBit/s data rate / "kByte/image frame"

1536 x 1024p *** 7:23 -> 74.0 / 316

Get out of here... That's awesome. Can't wait to see this.

I'm glad I didn't ditch all my sweet pentax/m42 lenses!

anthonybsd
05-20-2009, 08:39 AM
I wish there was a way to "bury" posts like on digg. I'll just pretend I didn't see this, and go on my merry ways with J&R preorder for GH1 in my hands... Denial - it works.

txsbluesguy
05-20-2009, 08:42 AM
too many pentax lenses to switch systems so i've been waiting ... be future only gets brighter




Get out of here... That's awesome. Can't wait to see this.

I'm glad I didn't ditch all my pentax lenses!

squig
05-20-2009, 08:52 AM
no manual shutter or ISO from what I can tell. No 25p for PAL world.

anthonybsd
05-20-2009, 09:10 AM
What about autofocus, can anyone deduce any details on that?

Martti Ekstrand
05-20-2009, 09:36 AM
According to the swedish reseller Cyberphoto the 1536x1024 mode shoots at 20 fps.

http://www.cyberphoto.se/?info.php?article=K-7

Sorry that page is in swedish but I'm sure you can find that little tidbit anyway. Gah, no 25 fps means it's dead in the water for me, can't shoot in 50Hz practical lights with it just like the 5DmkII :huh:

The price listed without VAT is $1360 for body only (the red number includes swedish VAT).

upshot
05-20-2009, 10:48 AM
What about autofocus, can anyone deduce any details on that?

Yes it does contrast autofocus during video capture!

Also has sensor based shake reduction...


no manual shutter or ISO from what I can tell

Still unclear. But it is clear that it will allow for manual aperture control (something the 5dii lacks as I understand it). Here is a quote from a Pentax rep on the subject: "i don't know that yet because we don't have the camera in hand. I would expect so"

anthonybsd
05-20-2009, 11:04 AM
Yes it does contrast autofocus during video capture!

Pardon my ignorance - but is that revealed by the description of its autofocus modes/types? In other words I'm wondering if it's a crippled bird like T1i autofocus, or full blown AF tracking in video mode.

stav1606
05-20-2009, 11:10 AM
Since it is a Samsung sensor, is there any possibility that it is the same as in the NX series hybrid?

Final Design Studios
05-20-2009, 11:19 AM
No 24p, no deal. It's important to my clients.

Emanuel
05-20-2009, 11:21 AM
Gah, no 25 fps means it's dead in the water for me, can't shoot in 50Hz practical lights with it just like the 5DmkII :huh:This is just a fallacy. I've been around using a 5D Mark II without any flickering hassles at all. The key is all about shutter.

Emanuel
05-20-2009, 11:22 AM
No 24p, no deal. It's important to my clients.A second one. :) Maybe to your customers, not to me. 30p -> 24p is as easy as the time you can spend on it.

salvo
05-20-2009, 11:26 AM
It seems to me that this camera is everything we hate about the D90 and the MII. Why would I ever consider buying this camera? The GH-1 is closer to what we all have been lusting for and I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic fixes most of the bugs before it hit's the US streets.

Well that's my two cents.

Final Design Studios
05-20-2009, 11:42 AM
A second one. :) Maybe to your customers, not to me. 30p -> 24p is as easy as the time you can spend on it.

Maybe I should clarify, even a simulated 24P works for me. I never shoot 24pa on my DVX because everything I do is interlaced for broadcast. For me, a 60i wrapper is kinda nice.

Isaac_Brody
05-20-2009, 12:09 PM
1536 x 1024 20fps? What do we call that? I wish they'd polled the filmmaking crowd instead of just appealing to the hobbyist usergroup.

720P at a higher bitrate is good, but lens limitations and no 24P or 60P have this coming up very short. Still, more competion breeds better products.

GregGory
05-20-2009, 12:26 PM
Sounds interesting, considering a similar system in the Oly E3 overheats in seconds... hence works only for a short preview. I think Pentax/Samsung use an electromagnetic setup, so the friction should be lower, but I'd still like to see it before I believe it. BUT if it works, it would be fantastic, IS on every legacy Pentax lens!

Jello might be well controlled, because Samsung has clearly stated that they are serious about video in their upcoming EVIL camera, so they must be working on something in this regard. OTOH, I've read somewhere it's the same sensor the K20d uses. Maybe the readout is upgraded. I remain cautiously optimistic, since as we have experienced several time, the devil is in the detail...

codeloss
05-20-2009, 12:27 PM
Pentax's press release says:
"The K-7 will capture video at the default standard of 1280x720 resolution with a 16:9 aspect ratio (equivalent to 720p), 1536x1024 resolution with a 3:2 aspect ratio, or 640x416 resolution with a 3:2 aspect ratio (equivalent to VGA quality), all shot at 30 frames per second."

Disappointed that there's no 24p, but this is looking like an interesting camera. Perhaps Pentax will be more receptive to the idea of adding 24fps than Canon has been.

Late
05-20-2009, 12:34 PM
Sounds interesting, considering a similar system in the Oly E3 overheats in seconds... hence works only for a short preview. I think Pentax/Samsung use an electromagnetic setup, so the friction should be lower, but I'd still like to see it before I believe it. BUT if it works, it would be fantastic, IS on every legacy Pentax lens!


I think there are problems with sensor shift IS in video mode even with many small sensor digicams. It would be great if they get it working so you get IS with every lens.

Kholi
05-20-2009, 12:35 PM
I actually like the prospect of "1K" mode. A 3:2 crop sounds neat to play with.

And 30P isn't bad. Right now every single one of these cameras have workarounds. The GH-1 is the closest to being studio ready but, oddly enough, is missing ONE integral part: live video out during recording in ANY form or fashion.

Odd.

I welcome competition. This probably belongs in another forum, though.

Next up: Samsung NX! Dunno why but I have a good feeling about that one.

Isaac_Brody
05-20-2009, 12:41 PM
Yeah, the next year or two I can see a lot of people investing in lenses and just buying replacement camera bodies as the tech catches up with our expectations and "needs."

dadoboy
05-20-2009, 12:54 PM
Speaking of lenses, I think lens adaptation for the pentax will be difficult because of it's longer flange focal distance. I forget what it is exactly. Anyone have the specifics "mm"?

Isaac, you're very correct. I am saving up for Red Pro Primes or the Illumina T1.3 set, the body for me is an after thought.

SLoNiCK
05-20-2009, 01:05 PM
No PAL again, I suppose?

dadoboy

You can attach M42 screwmount lenses via adapter. Maybe some MF optics, too.

Zacatac
05-20-2009, 01:41 PM
For those who really care about Live HDMI

An HDMI port with selectable output resolution (1080i, 720p, 480p, and auto) offers high resolution playback of images and video on modern high definition TV’s

codeloss
05-20-2009, 01:49 PM
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/K7/K7A.HTM#video

"We did observe quite a bit of the so-called "jelly effect" caused by the rolling shutter exposure system the Pentax K7 shares with most other video-capable SLRs: If we jiggled the camera from side to side during recording, the whole image would sway back and forth very noticeably."

Damn!

Martti Ekstrand
05-20-2009, 02:24 PM
This is just a fallacy. I've been around using a 5D Mark II without any flickering hassles at all. The key is all about shutter.
You mean the shutter that nobody has mentioned that there's control over on the Pentax and that has to be tricked into a correct setting on the Canon? I know that the 5D can produce a flicker free clip in 50Hz lights but it's all too easy get it wrong, especially out in the field trying to work quickly on non-repeatable shots. I've seen enough flickering takes from the 5D to know it's no fallacy.

For my money I prefer buying a native 25/50 fps camera. And I certainly want to reward a company that chooses to make a PAL version by purchasing their gear over the competition that opts to ignore PAL. I do hope that one beautiful day Canon will get out a firmware update with full manual and 25 fps but until then I plan to buy the GH-1 (and probably will anyway), this new Pentax doesn't not change that. But to each his own.

josephj
05-20-2009, 03:18 PM
"Next up: Samsung NX! Dunno why but I have a good feeling about that one."

me too.

MJ Peg
05-20-2009, 03:29 PM
So... you could take a 16:9 sized chunk of 1536 x 864 and resize down to 1280 x 720 for super sharpness :)

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0905/09052003pentaxk7dslr.asp says it will have a mic socket too.

squig
05-20-2009, 05:02 PM
anamorphic!

Kholi
05-20-2009, 05:14 PM
So... you could take a 16:9 sized chunk of 1536 x 864 and resize down to 1280 x 720 for super sharpness :)

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0905/09052003pentaxk7dslr.asp says it will have a mic socket too.

actually taking the 1K and scaling to 2K in instantHD might prove to be very tasty.

stav1606
05-20-2009, 05:40 PM
I am so afraid of buying the GH1 and then a couple months later finding out that the NX is better and/or cheaper...

Kholi
05-20-2009, 06:01 PM
Nothing to really worry about. This is a different market than Prosumer Video by far.

There are MILLIONS of people to offload gear too that will be looking for a GH-1 second hand.

If the NUX is a nice camera I'll have to scoop one up and try, but it's not the kind of expense I'll cry abotu later unlike trying to pick up an HPX or EX-1.

At these prices it's easy to buy and try, man.

I think Samsung's gonna drop a good one, though. Should be able to adapt just as many lenses to it as the GH-1 which is already awesome.

stav1606
05-20-2009, 06:05 PM
Yes the thing is they ve been quite silent lately. This might mean they are about to announce something great or that they are far from it...

Don't know... I will decide once the GH1 becomes available in the UK.

Kholi
05-20-2009, 06:25 PM
I'll tell you from very recent experiences: while for personal use you can do with what you will. If these things are going into a proffessional environment, here's the make or break list:

1) LIVE VIEWING -- DOesn't matter if it's uncompressed or HD or whatever. JUST needs to be able to be viewed WHILE recording. Even a little Kodak Vi6 720P Pocket camera can do this out of a component cable WHILE recording the 720/60P.

In fact, it SHOULD be component so that it's easier to feed to professional monitors. It's much easier to snap on some SDI converters than it is to downconvert or split a damned HDMI signal.

2) 24P. I know, you can convert. But, look, I could ALSO flip my footage in post when I used adapters that flipped. Clients do not want that. I'm already pretty scared of giving them footage you have to do a pulldown on but because it looks so nice from this camera (and yeah, they were warned about the compression) it's worth it for them.

24P, 30P, 60P = Dream VDSLR

3) MANUAL CONTROLS - Again, do what you have to do to make it work. But in an evironment that DEMANDS repeatable results this is unquestionably important. Everyone can argue "well I can do it, just takes patience" all they want, but I bet I see those same people pining for Canon to release their Manual Controls. Patience is rarely a virtue a set enjoys. Manual Controls down to the T.

The GH-1 nails this perfectly.

The rest is just Cake Icing. If you get live video out you don't need an articulating LCD, you can just use monitors, so no big deal.

And on and on and so forth.

ChipG
05-20-2009, 06:37 PM
If you get live video out you don't need an articulating LCD, you can just use monitors, so no big deal.

Oh man, you did not just say that. That little articulating LCD will be gold for run n' gun stuff where you can't plug a field monitor in. Both would be sweet!

The only reason why I have my old Sony DSC-R1 digital still cam is because of it's little flip articulating LCD, I can hold it waste level and see the shot in the lcd. I'll lay it on the ground and get shots pointing up that you can't get without the flip lcd.

Kholi
05-20-2009, 06:40 PM
Indeed! Both WOULD be sweet. Actually I really do take that back though. LOL

I kept having to crane my head with the MKii today, and I've gotten so used or RE-accustomed to the idea of a proper sort of LCD that I went to grab the MKii LCD to flip it out...

Wouldn't you know? It didn't work...

ChipG
05-20-2009, 06:42 PM
He he he, I like how you big cinema style guys forget about us little run n' gun guys :)

Ian-T
05-20-2009, 07:18 PM
Yes the thing is they ve been quite silent lately. This might mean they are about to announce something great or that they are far from it...

Don't know... I will decide once the GH1 becomes available in the UK.They are doing what Panasonic admitted to doing...and that is...watching the market. I remember the Pana rep saying that "we won't make the same mistakes as our competitors." This is what made me wait.

Boz
05-20-2009, 08:17 PM
I'm not holding my breath. Samsung, to my knowledge has never released a camera that does 24P. What have they released? 15, 20, 30, & 60P. Yes, you read that right. At least Panasonic had some history with releasing 24P in the past (Lumix), but so far Samsung hasn't shown any such inclination. My guess is the camera will do 30/60P and that's it. Of course , I would love to be wrong.

codeloss
05-20-2009, 08:26 PM
There's a Pentax rep answering questions over at DPR. He just confirmed that ISO and shutter speed are automatic only in movie mode. Disappointing.

Nathan Troutman
05-20-2009, 09:08 PM
I
2) 24P. I know, you can convert. But, look, I could ALSO flip my footage in post when I used adapters that flipped. Clients do not want that. I'm already pretty scared of giving them footage you have to do a pulldown on but because it looks so nice from this camera (and yeah, they were warned about the compression) it's worth it for them.

But if the compression ,which is 17mbs in the 1080P 24fps mode, is garbage and you wind up shooting everything 720P 60fps where's your 24P?

Then, if you have to put manual Nikons or Canon lenses on it because the micro-4/3rds lenses are all slow as hell haven't you just defeated the advantage of having Auto-focus, zooming while shooting, etc.? Plus you have a 2x crop factor instead of the 1.5x of Pentax, Canon or Nikon.

To me all the GH1 has right now is a flip-able LCD and full manual control. The rest is a mixed bag. You can't try and give me the song and dance that 17mbs is acceptable when the 5D is shooting 48mbs.

It's too bad the Pentax decided to give you aperture control but not shutter and ISO. Hopefully it is as easy to trick as the 5D is. And most importantly there HAS to be a way to lock the settings. These still camera makers need to learn that with video you don't want you shutter speed changing all over the place while you're shooting.

Kholi
05-20-2009, 09:29 PM
But if the compression ,which is 17mbs in the 1080P 24fps mode, is garbage and you wind up shooting everything 720P 60fps where's your 24P?

Part of that garbage = pulldown. Isaac figured this out and the images look a great percentage better when run through the two different methods:

Apple to AIC to Compressor
Cineform (one step) via Windows.

Note: I've got a pretty high profile gig with the GH-1. They were warned about the 1080/24P. I showed it and they thought I was a nitpicking fool. They've rented my GH-1 for quite a nice price and I come with it.

Broadcast spot for a well known company.

It's all taste/relevance, but it IS 24P.



Then, if you have to put manual Nikons or Canon lenses on it because the micro-4/3rds lenses are all slow as hell haven't you just defeated the advantage of having Auto-focus, zooming while shooting, etc.? Plus you have a 2x crop factor instead of the 1.5x of Pentax, Canon or Nikon.Not at all. The camera is useable up to 800 ISO. that makes it pretty fast. And I never listed Auto Focus as anything to sell a camera. Wasn't in ANY of those three points.

Also, Full Frame is NOT the standard for Cinematic or Commercial Acquisition. The Crop factor is NOT 2x in Video Mode. It's more like 1.5x or close, which is pretty-damned close to what RED shoots @ 4K.

I guess people are complainign about the FOV of RED in 4K, though... Wait, no they aren't. Because it's close to what we've been shooting all this time.

Lastly, the ADVANTAGE is being able to adopt ANY lens to the camera. Auto Features are just icing on the cake with the Kit Lens, something you can't use with any of the other cameras properly.




To me all the GH1 has right now is a flip-able LCD and full manual control. The rest is a mixed bag. You can't try and give me the song and dance that 17mbs is acceptable when the 5D is shooting 48mbs.I don't have to. The GH-1 just beat the MKii for a high profile commercial today. The Song and Dance is green and it's going in my pocket.



It's too bad the Pentax decided to give you aperture control but not shutter and ISO. Hopefully it is as easy to trick as the 5D is. And most importantly there HAS to be a way to lock the settings. These still camera makers need to learn that with video you don't want you shutter speed changing all over the place while you're shooting.And oddly enough, that's exactly what the 5D and Pentax is doing. And that's the ONLY point that I listed that you touched on.

Strange.

That post had NOTHING to do with the GH-1 either, it had to do with a WINNING camera. And for a CAMERA to be used in a PROFESSIONAL environment PROPERLY it SHOULD have those three things listed.

if the MKii HAD that I would HAVE it in my hands, if not TWO of them.

When and IF it gets Manual Controls, you'll probably see pictures of my GH-1 and MKii side by side. Not like either cost a lot. lol

saaby
05-20-2009, 09:48 PM
Yeah, on the stills side I shoot Pentax...so deep down inside I was hoping for a total "game changer" on the video side from them, but not really expecting it.

Oh don't get me wrong, the K-7 looks like a fantastic camera...and I want one...but I still want a GH-1 to go along with it.

It's still exciting though, look at where we are now. I'm hardly going to stand still and wait for the next generation, but a year ago who would have imagined we'd be here, and just imagine where we'll be in another year or 2.

Nathan Troutman
05-21-2009, 12:04 AM
Part of that garbage = pulldown. Isaac figured this out and the images look a great percentage better when run through the two different methods:

Apple to AIC to Compressor
Cineform (one step) via Windows.

You mean you remove the pulldown in editing and suddenly the H.264 has been encoded at 48mbs! Wow, that's pretty impressive.



Note: I've got a pretty high profile gig with the GH-1. They were warned about the 1080/24P. I showed it and they thought I was a nitpicking fool. They've rented my GH-1 for quite a nice price and I come with it.

Well shot 35mm adapter footage on an HV20 can pass for "Pro" video especially when you don't see what the camera looks like that's making it. I've shot professional spots for real companies with HDV and everybody thought it was great. Part of that is the fact most companies don't know anything about video which is why they're hiring me.


Not at all. The camera is useable up to 800 ISO. that makes it pretty fast. And I never listed Auto Focus as anything to sell a camera. Wasn't in ANY of those three points.

Very true but to me that is one of the advantages of the GH1 if there was better lens selections.


Also, Full Frame is NOT the standard for Cinematic or Commercial Acquisition.

Never said it was. But it's nice to have it if it's available and it does happen to be available. I never knew that 24P was the standard for commercial acquisition either. So why wouldn't 30P work for a commercial spot? I get the film thing or I want that look for my music video, but corporate work. You have to have 24P for that now too.[/QUOTE]


When and IF it gets Manual Controls, you'll probably see pictures of my GH-1 and MKii side by side. Not like either cost a lot. lol

With a manual lens on a 5D you can lock ISO at 100 (or 200 with the HTP mode enabled) and have full shutter control or lock 1/40th shutter and get full ISO control using the exposure compensation wheel. For whatever reason these two spots lock the camera into adjusting only the other parameter. Does it work - well just look at the footage there's plenty of it out there.

For what it's worth I agree 24P and manual control are a priority. However I think the first thing everybody talks about with any camera is video quality. So I don't get how that wouldn't be #1 on your list because for most anybody else that's all that matters. It's why we've been fighting the Sony vs Panasonic war for all of these years. This is a huge discussion about how the image is processed, compressed and handled by the camera. It deals with hundreds of different technical issues. But a lot of times it does all boil down to what you see (Vincent Laforte) and the compression (that when done right) you don't see.

I know it is a complete mistake that such solid compression and image handling got out of Canon at $2500 with the 5D. That's because Canon's video department like Sony and Panasonic have been selling unnecessarily poor video quality as an excuse to charge unnecessarily higher prices for better quality. The 5D's breaks this mold. Yet you skip over this massive advantage for the 5D like it doesn't matter. No all we need is manual control, 24P, and HDMI out but who cares about the quality of the compression and how good the image looks. The 5D creates a better image with better compression. It's shortcomings are well known, but to ignore it's superior image quality in favor of only talking about 24P and manual control is leaving out some of the truth. If the 1080P mode that has 24P is so heavily compressed that some people might feel it's not a viable shooting mode than you no longer have a 24P camera.

In the end regardless of the 5D's shortcomings it's video is simply better looking and less compressed than that of the GH1. You can't change the fact that both the 5D and GH1 record to the exact same codec (h.264) but the GH1 is 17mbs and the 5D is 48mbs. The 5D is a full frame sensor and can shoot very useable footage at ISO 3200. These are very real advantages it has compared to the GH1. Finally if the 1080P mode is not going to work for someone because it's heavily compressed than all you have is another 720P camera with better manual controls that happens to cost twice as much as the Canon T1i and Nikon D5000.

In my mind the only reason that Canon hasn't unlocked the 5D is because they're prepping to release the real deal do it all camera that will naturally cost at least twice as much. But let's be fair to the GH1. Panasonic was careful not to give away too much especially in the most important area - compression quality. The GH1 footage isn't bad but it isn't revolutionary. The 5D footage however is really that good and I know it's because Canon's video department had nothing to do with it because they never would have allowed it to see the light of day at this price point.

So, my advice to those out there: Unlike Panasonic fanboys I'm not going to chant buy a GH1 nor do I chant buy a 5D. Right now there are only a set of compromises to choose from and it looks like the Pentax K-7 is another new addition to that equation. For myself I'm used to workarounds. I've been using 35mm adapters for years and they are one hell of a workaround. So I can live with the manual control workarounds for the 5D because the best looking image is the 5D. You may feel the GH1 has the best features. The D5000 has a great price. Unfortunately nobody has put it all together and most certainly not the GH1. For myself first on my list of must-haves is image quality not manual controls or 24p so I'm using a 5D - besides it's already almost manual control anyhow. It's just a bit of a pain in the ass - kind of like that 35mm film adapter set-up I used to shoot with.

Kholi
05-21-2009, 12:22 AM
Well, this wasn't even a GH-1 vs MKii discussion, but looks like I struck a nerve with the three most important lists. Which again had nothing to do with GH-1 vs ANY camera, but just the three things that these cameras SHOULD have if we want to put them in a professional environment.


Image quality pales in comparison to MANUAL controls. No matter how much trickery is going on, you can use it for yourself all you want but the second you eat someone's time up when it costs money it's over.

We experience this same thing with sub P+S 35mm Adapters, and it wasn't until the second gen did they start making ANY headway. Some people STILL have sour tastes in their mouths because of the workarounds.

Image Quality is important, but doesn't really mean a hill of beans if it's not working on a fundamental basis. AKA Repetable performances at the push of a button.

MKii has the better image, but it just really doesn't make a difference in a large environment (you and a friend doesn't equate to large environment) if you can't repeat it.

Again, I'm talking about these things bleeding over into a Professional Atmosphere with real clients breathing over your shoulder. I've heard it from TOO MANY MKii users that have done corporate stuff, the NUMBER ONE suck is NO MANUAL CONTROL. Funny looks, what's going on and "oh is the time about to run out on the camera again?"


Outside of that, it doesn't matter. Use what you want and can deal with. This isn't a GH-1 vs MKii thing, it's a BASIC OPERATIONS thing.

Nighthawk
05-21-2009, 12:35 AM
Nathan...

O....K....? So, to sum up: 5D is good, GH1 is good but 'different' good, D5000 is cheaper, K-7 is newer. Gotcha.

Not trying to be a jerk, honest, but much of what your stating is either known or been argued about much earlier in these long threads. If you were to give a thumbs up to any of these cameras it would be the Canon. I can respect that. I would too if it weren't for a few factors. It's simply an individual's choice to which 'workaround' they're most comfortable with as all these cameras need to have one.

PappasArts
05-21-2009, 12:38 AM
Well, this wasn't even a GH-1 vs MKii discussion, but looks like I struck a nerve with the three most important lists. Which again had nothing to do with GH-1 vs ANY camera, but just the three things that these cameras SHOULD have if we want to put them in a professional environment.


Image quality pales in comparison to MANUAL controls. No matter how much trickery is going on, you can use it for yourself all you want but the second you eat someone's time up when it costs money it's over.

We experience this same thing with sub P+S 35mm Adapters, and it wasn't until the second gen did they start making ANY headway. Some people STILL have sour tastes in their mouths because of the workarounds.

Image Quality is important, but doesn't really mean a hill of beans if it's not working on a fundamental basis. AKA Repetable performances at the push of a button.

MKii has the better image, but it just really doesn't make a difference in a large environment (you and a friend doesn't equate to large environment) if you can't repeat it.

Again, I'm talking about these things bleeding over into a Professional Atmosphere with real clients breathing over your shoulder. I've heard it from TOO MANY MKii users that have done corporate stuff, the NUMBER ONE suck is NO MANUAL CONTROL. Funny looks, what's going on and "oh is the time about to run out on the camera again?"


Outside of that, it doesn't matter. Use what you want and can deal with. This isn't a GH-1 vs MKii thing, it's a BASIC OPERATIONS thing.

Kholi,

Here is the Mark II vs the Canon A1.

Download the 720P versions.

What's funny is this looks just like all my 35mm 5298 EXR 500T stock vs HD cameras I have. The A1 looks like video while the 5D looks like 5298 ( with no grain ) tele-cined to 2K. The 5D MII is insane good. It's almost wrong........

http://www.vimeo.com/4445879

Now Kholi, why can't you do this same thing with the GH1 vs 5D MII since you have access to both?
It would be any harder than what this guy did...



Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
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Kholi
05-21-2009, 12:42 AM
Because it doesn't interest me to do so. I already know the MKii outputs a better 1080 image. LOL.

Dunno HOW many times I have to say this. And that 1080 image doesn't matter one lick if I have to fight with it on someone else's dime. Like I said a good THIRTY times already, if the MKii gets manual controls I'll shell out money for an MKii, Extra Battery and a Contax Zeiss adapter.

It'll sit RIGHT with the GH-1. I may not USE it but it'll sure as hell get rented.

I really can't understand why it's so hard to get that I've already said the MKii outputs better 1080 than the GH-1. It just doesn't MATTER that it does. Just like it didn't matter that the EX-1 was faster, cleaner, more resolute and more expensive than the HPX170.

PappasArts
05-21-2009, 02:26 AM
Because it doesn't interest me to do so. I already know the MKii outputs a better 1080 image. LOL.

Dunno HOW many times I have to say this. And that 1080 image doesn't matter one lick if I have to fight with it on someone else's dime. Like I said a good THIRTY times already, if the MKii gets manual controls I'll shell out money for an MKii, Extra Battery and a Contax Zeiss adapter.

It'll sit RIGHT with the GH-1. I may not USE it but it'll sure as hell get rented.

I really can't understand why it's so hard to get that I've already said the MKii outputs better 1080 than the GH-1. It just doesn't MATTER that it does. Just like it didn't matter that the EX-1 was faster, cleaner, more resolute and more expensive than the HPX170.


Dude don't get your panties all twisted, no one including I is saying you said anything of the sort. Dude for someone who yells " game over" atop of the hills, you sure have sensitive nerves. No worries, relax, we live in laid back California.

The reason for the request, is you put yourself out in the front of the populous quite demonstratively; being the first to buy, and report with strong conjecture and prowess. With that said, since you own both, which most do not on DVX. It would be cool to see that comparison. If you don't want to, just for curiosity enlightenment , then don't. It's cool!

Like I said Kholi no worries. It was just a suggestion.......




Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1638289&postcount=97
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84

Facebook:
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AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

.

Nicky
05-21-2009, 02:39 AM
Kholi please do a GH1 vs 5Dmk2 shootout :)

upshot
05-21-2009, 06:08 AM
There's a Pentax rep answering questions over at DPR. He just confirmed that ISO and shutter speed are automatic only in movie mode. Disappointing.

Doh. ouch. Doh. Doh.


What does this silly 5d vs GH1 war have to do with the K-7??


Anyway... To me it's simple math.

$2700+$x lenses+$x time (fiddling)= naw

$1500+any lens I already own+free AF zoom+manual control= sure why not

(basically I agree with Kholi)

Nathan Troutman
05-21-2009, 06:39 AM
Nathan...

O....K....? So, to sum up: 5D is good, GH1 is good but 'different' good, D5000 is cheaper, K-7 is newer. Gotcha.

That's a pretty good summary. All I'm trying to get across is that all of the choices are compromises. This whole thing started because I was trying to make the point that because of the compromised 1080P 24 fps mode in the GH1 in terms of image quality you really have yet another 720P camera that can't shoot 24P. So you're getting manual control but are you really getting a useable 24P mode with the best image quality possible?


What does this have to do with Pentax - nothing. The Pentax has its own set of compromises - like a lack of manual control. However, it does have some interesting features like the image stabilization in the body of the camera. With an ability to control aperture plus the ability to at least lock in the auto settings this could be doable. The 720P mode looks like a really solid data rate for good looking video.

Yes we want manual control. Why anybody continues to release new cameras without it is kind of confusing. But on the 5D because you can lock in the settings and there are ways to work it into a repeatable manual control that is useable. As far as I know the Canon T1i, D5000 & D90 don't have this ability - meaning they are truly 100% auto. But they're also all in the $800 range. We'll have to see ultimately what the Pentax can and cannot do.

I guess I'm just used to working with the 5D and don't find the quasi-manual mode to be that impossible to work with. I think once you know how to do it you'd see it's not so impossible. It's a pain in the ass but it's doable. Better options than the 5D/GH1 are going to come.

Martti Ekstrand
05-21-2009, 06:45 AM
Just in from Twitter and Phillp Bloom at the Panasonic GH-1 UK launch day:

dustinuy: what were the things you told the panasonic rep from japan?

phillpbloom: higher bitrate. He said it was limited due to consumer archiving? But I said at least make it an option. He said ok.

http://twitter.com/philipbloom

We'll see what comes out of that - if it's a firmware update or next model.

squig
05-21-2009, 06:45 AM
Yeah I'm with Kholi and Isaac, the DSLR is just the brain. You swap out the brain for a better one. My D90 is history, I'm gonna grab a GH1 if the D400 isn't announced soon. The brain amounts to only about 15% of the cost of my rig and I'll only lose a couple of hundred dollars replacing the brain. You can easily spend more on a matte box, follow focus, or lens than you do on the brain so there's not really that much to complain about bar the shitty consumer codec.

It's a real shame the K-7 doesn't have manual control and is 30p because I suspect the picture is going to be very nice probably even better than the 5DMKII.

AdrianF
05-21-2009, 07:32 AM
The brain amounts to only about 15% of the cost of my rig and I'll only lose a couple of hundred dollars replacing the brain. You can easily spend more on a matte box, follow focus, or lens than you do on the brain so there's not really that much to complain about bar the shi*ty consumer codec.

Exactly. I'm sure this is going to become pretty standard practice over the next few years. Right now we have a choice of several good "brains" and more on the horizon. There's no reason not to mix and match bodies during shooting, for different strengths and weaknesses. If you already have a good collection of Pentax glass, then this looks like an exiting prospect. Want to add slow mo, or need the manual control in certain situations, then get a GH1 with an adapter. It' s only going to get more interesting.

Nathan Troutman
05-21-2009, 08:38 AM
Here's a good sensor chart to let you see how big or small these sensors are.

The GH1 is a 2x crop factor with normal 35mm lenses. The Rebel T1i is 1.62x, the D5000, D90 and new Pentax are 1.5x and the 5D is full-frame (actually larger than the normal S35 film format normally used for features.)

Kholi
05-21-2009, 09:26 AM
Pappas the issue is people just either aren't reading or not getting simple explainations???

For example: I clearly stated twice to you that I don't own an MKii. But you keep saying that I do.

See what I'm getting at?

Secondly, there's nothing but trouble in shootouts. People with investments to protect on both sides of the fence cry this or that. We know it from experience and it's not worth my time, personally.

We already know the MKii has the better image. What else can be gained??

It won't change the fact that the GH1 is still the more well rounded tool and it won change that the mkii is better in lowlight yadda yadda.

Nighthawk
05-21-2009, 10:12 AM
Yeah I'm with Kholi and Isaac, the DSLR is just the brain. You swap out the brain for a better one. My D90 is history, I'm gonna grab a GH1 if the D400 isn't announced soon. The brain amounts to only about 15% of the cost of my rig and I'll only lose a couple of hundred dollars replacing the brain. You can easily spend more on a matte box, follow focus, or lens than you do on the brain so there's not really that much to complain about bar the shi*ty consumer codec.

It's a real shame the K-7 doesn't have manual control and is 30p because I suspect the picture is going to be very nice probably even better than the 5DMKII.


Exactly. I'm sure this is going to become pretty standard practice over the next few years. Right now we have a choice of several good "brains" and more on the horizon. There's no reason not to mix and match bodies during shooting, for different strengths and weaknesses. If you already have a good collection of Pentax glass, then this looks like an exiting prospect. Want to add slow mo, or need the manual control in certain situations, then get a GH1 with an adapter. It' s only going to get more interesting.

I'm with you guys. All the cameras now in the mix are just a bridge to something amazing down the road. I picture next year we're gonna be just silly with choices. 'Til then pick your weapon of choice, gather up ye lenses and gear and go shoot until the next big 'game changer' makes you wet yourself. In the meantime I picture us all beating the sh*t out of each other at swap meets over a Zeiss lens going for $3.25. I love that old, cool glass is being resurrected, anamorphics are in play and workarounds will be old news in the future. Just 3 months ago I had no idea this was possible.

PappasArts
05-21-2009, 11:41 AM
Pappas the issue is people just either aren't reading or not getting simple explainations???

For example: I clearly stated twice to you that I don't own an MKii. But you keep saying that I do.

See what I'm getting at?

Secondly, there's nothing but trouble in shootouts. People with investments to protect on both sides of the fence cry this or that. We know it from experience and it's not worth my time, personally.

We already know the MKii has the better image. What else can be gained??

It won't change the fact that the GH1 is still the more well rounded tool and it won change that the mkii is better in lowlight yadda yadda.


Agreed, thanks for the clarification Kholi..... :-)

Emanuel
05-21-2009, 01:33 PM
You mean the shutter that nobody has mentioned that there's control over on the Pentax and that has to be tricked into a correct setting on the Canon? I know that the 5D can produce a flicker free clip in 50Hz lights but it's all too easy get it wrong, especially out in the field trying to work quickly on non-repeatable shots. I've seen enough flickering takes from the 5D to know it's no fallacy.It is a fallacy when someone says it as an inevitable truth. More FUD than anything else, as matter of fact.

When you say: «I know that the 5D can produce a flicker free clip in 50Hz lights», you're seconding my fallacy point of view.

When you say: «but it's all too easy get it wrong», I add that it's all just a workaround to get it right. But most part of time, not even necessary.

Martti Ekstrand
05-21-2009, 02:57 PM
It is a fallacy when someone says it as an inevitable truth.
Funny, never said as an inevitable truth, quite the contrary; I said "for me" in the same sentence...

Emanuel
05-21-2009, 06:54 PM
But it doesn't mean that it hadn't sounded as 'an inevitable truth', a fallacy if not for any 5D Mark II user (I believe so) at least for this one here. :)

Moreover, when you placed your 'for me' was not about the pretentious fact (the fallacy) but your right to decide to be 'out of water'. Be it but not based on facts that are not facts. I'm sorry.

xxxxx1
05-21-2009, 10:32 PM
first sample, DA15/4 w/ auto ap (http://image.popco.net/Review/DCA/PENTAX_K-7/movie/IMGP0055-0.swf).

Martti Ekstrand
05-21-2009, 11:53 PM
But it doesn't mean that it hadn't sounded as 'an inevitable truth',

Guess I'm too humble and unlike you don't consider myself a arbitrator of right and wrong in the universe so forgot a "I" in that sentence not even thinking it might be perceived as a inevitable truth... or maybe it was just my dyslexia that tripped me. BTW I didn't write 'out of water', I wrote 'dead in the water' - do you at all bother to really read other's posts and fully comprehend them before you reply?

All your nitpicking (würdbating?) of my writing skills aside it still remains that a 30 fps camera can create flickering under 50Hz lights and if the manufacturer hasn't given the user control of shutter speed so that defect can be countered in a easy and repeatable fashion then I (let me emphasize that I in bold!) don't want to buy that camera. You can call that a fallacy of pretentious FUD for all you want, it's my money.

killacam
05-22-2009, 01:20 AM
first sample, DA15/4 w/ auto ap (http://image.popco.net/Review/DCA/PENTAX_K-7/movie/IMGP0055-0.swf).


that doesn't look too bad- the image quality is nice, but the skew looks pretty apparent I think and I guess the flickering is due to auto exposure?

who knew 20p would be the new trend though? they actually downgraded from their 21fps burst mode on the k20d (http://vimeo.com/user642322/videos)

edit: whoops I don't know why I thought it was 20fps- it's 30. I must have confused it with earlier rumored specs or got mixed up because of its weird 1536 x 1020 mode.

Martti Ekstrand
05-22-2009, 02:40 AM
The 20 fps for the largest resolution is listed at the swedish reseller Cyberphoto as I wrote earlier in the thread but that must be old info as the specs at Pentax do say 30 fps and nothing else.

http://www.pentax.jp/english/news/2009/200906.html#spec

There are some jumps in exposure and white balance going on in that clip and crude colour aliasing in the curved railing in the background (that could be bad flash encoding). However I guess it's taken with a preview unit and not a finalized production unit so not much use discussing this clip in detail.

Emanuel
05-22-2009, 05:42 AM
Guess I'm too humble and unlike you don't consider myself a arbitrator of right and wrong in the universe so forgot a "I" in that sentence not even thinking it might be perceived as a inevitable truth... or maybe it was just my dyslexia that tripped me. BTW I didn't write 'out of water', I wrote 'dead in the water' - do you at all bother to really read other's posts and fully comprehend them before you reply?

All your nitpicking (würdbating?) of my writing skills aside it still remains that a 30 fps camera can create flickering under 50Hz lights and if the manufacturer hasn't given the user control of shutter speed so that defect can be countered in a easy and repeatable fashion then I (let me emphasize that I in bold!) don't want to buy that camera. You can call that a fallacy of pretentious FUD for all you want, it's my money.This is becoming ridiculous. Words bring a meaning. What you write or didn't write is only relevant when you're implying a meaning associated. See also the difference between signifier and signified.

Yes, you wrote it in your way. Not exactly 'out of water'. What do you want that I may add to your belated disclaimer? Have you noticed the commas introduced there anyway? Got it? Is it really necessary to detail it? 'cause to me (or any reader, I suppose) is the meaning what counts.

When I read it, I replied to the meaning of your assertion. If I would read it without any other information, maybe I wouldn't buy it 'cause your innacurate observation. I call it FUD once I'm tired to read others bashing this camera also 'cause have no budget for the purchase. Trying to convince themselves (and others too) with half false arguments. I'm not saying that's your case. Check it out please, the 'I' is there. Chill out brother, this is a friendly forum, not a battle field. :)

anthonybsd
05-22-2009, 08:32 AM
Wow, so many existentubators on this thread :)

Does anyone know where that video link came from? I see that it has review in the URL, is there an actual review linking to it?

Ian-T
05-22-2009, 08:41 AM
Was that from the Pentax? I just stepped through it and the video is falling apart all over the place. Say it isn't so.

Isaac_Brody
05-22-2009, 09:02 AM
Wow, so many existentubators on this thread :)


Haha. Alright Emanuel and Martti perhaps you could take the existential crisis into PM's.

I'm still confused, is the highest resolution really that odd 1536 spec? :huh:

Emanuel
05-22-2009, 11:23 AM
Haha. Alright Emanuel and Martti perhaps you could take the existential crisis into PM's.
LMAO But do me a favor and put me 'out of water' *sorry :laugh:* out of this waste of time, OK? :) As said, it has become ridiculous 'cause is just pointless. Enough said though.

Apart Mr. Ekstrand's case, what bothers me is the inaccuracy of such 'fact(s)'. The flickering 'fallacy' ('original sin' here ;-) for example, it had been a problem to a few since the HVX launch. The choice on a 24p version purchase had dropped 'cause something that's not even a problem.

So, it's not difficult to get when someone says: «it's my money there» 'cause it just made a honest point [that «there» is out of (exact) quote but not its meaning hahaha -- I'm sorry once again :cheesy:].

Points are always welcome and more useful to any debate than the noise around. But I figure out (or at least, not for lack of attempt) a few reasons. Just not flickering under 50Hz lights, as far as it is possible to know after a fair 30p test in PAL realm. To the usual 5D Mark II naysayers in PAL land or not, a well-informed user just can say, pick another one. That does not apply.

PappasArts
05-22-2009, 12:12 PM
Chill out brother, this is a friendly forum, not a battle field. :)


Amen to that Emanuel..............




Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


Anamorphic DSLR Lens Test Images... links:
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http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1637705&postcount=84

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squig
05-22-2009, 03:51 PM
Haha. Alright Emanuel and Martti perhaps you could take the existential crisis into PM's.

I'm still confused, is the highest resolution really that odd 1536 spec? :huh:

yep. I'm assuming they did it for web delivery???

perfect for 2x anamorphic shooting

TrueIndigo
05-23-2009, 04:23 AM
Earlier someone asked about the Pentax lens register distance. I found this info for some of the popular lens mounts in case of interest:

C-mount = 12.50mm
Leica M = 27.95mm (or, 27.80mm ?)
Leica screw = 28.80mm
Canon FD = 42.00mm
Minolta MD = 43.50
Canon EOS EF = 44.00mm
Pentax K = 45.50mm
Contax/Yashica = 45.50mm
Olympus OM = 46.00mm
Nikon F = 46.40mm
Leica R = 47.00mm
Arriflex PL = 52.00mm

Nathan Troutman
05-26-2009, 09:13 PM
Well Kholi I guess now we have the big feature that everyone needed with the 5D. Full manual control just announced in a firmware update. I must admit I'm surprised they did it. But now the 5D is fully ready to play. For those of you still frozen in the 24P mindset get your GH1. For the rest of you that want the best 1080P image you can get with full 35mm DOF without that gigantic film adapter contraption check out the 5D.

Kholi
05-26-2009, 10:01 PM
Well Kholi I guess now we have the big feature that everyone needed with the 5D. Full manual control just announced in a firmware update. I must admit I'm surprised they did it. But now the 5D is fully ready to play. For those of you still frozen in the 24P mindset get your GH1. For the rest of you that want the best 1080P image you can get with full 35mm DOF without that gigantic film adapter contraption check out the 5D.

LOL.

www.prolost.com (http://www.prolost.com)

I guess it wasn't enough for.. most people still on the fence. =B Hur hur

But I did say I'd buy one if it got manual controls. And I will. And I will rent it, have it pay for itself while I use my two GH-1's.

Enjoy shooting.

Boz
05-26-2009, 11:10 PM
It's funny this is being discussed under a group heading entitled "GH1 General Discussion" in a thread call "Meet the new kid on the block - Pentax K-7" :)

Anyway, I'm sticking with the GH1 over the 5DmkII - I'll still get three different frame rates instead of one, a flipout LCD, an electronic viewfinder, the ability to use a bazillion lenses (with adapters), and save $1000+ in the process... which of course will be used to buy a few lenses, and perhaps a rail system/matte box.

I REALLY hope Panasonic follows Canon's lead and listens to their users - releasing a firmware upgrade to fix some of GH1's "issues". We shall see.

Kholi
05-26-2009, 11:23 PM
LoL Boz. Yeah. Cameras get out of hand.

If I hadn't bought one yet I'd get the MKii! Manual Controls, easy to convert to 24P, better 1080.

killacam
05-26-2009, 11:56 PM
wow cool of canon to provide this firmware update but the lack of 24p is still a major issue. this brings it one step closer to being the camera to get though so maybe they are still working on the framerate- I'm sure they've heard just as many requests for it as they have for manual controls. right now though even though it has really amazing image quality, its 30p still looks a little video-y. watching 5d clips on vimeo aren't really a good indication of its motion since vimeo automatically converts hd clips to 24fps. if it had 24p it would probably beat out most prosumer camcorders- and yeah, probably make it a better choice than the gh1 although they're at different price points.

Boz
05-27-2009, 08:40 AM
LoL Boz. Yeah. Cameras get out of hand.

If I hadn't bought one yet I'd get the MKii! Manual Controls, easy to convert to 24P, better 1080.

Easy to convert to 24P? I've never heard that 30P is easy to convert - or more specifically, easy to convert and have it LOOK good. So you'd really choose the 5Dii over the GH1? Hmmm... now I need to think.

stip
06-01-2009, 11:50 AM
This REALLY is the first footage of K-7, 720p mode, shot by Ned Bunnell, president of Pentax Imaging USA with a beta firmware

http://vimeo.com/4924324


or at Ned's Blog


http://nedbunnell.blogspot.com/

yabyum
07-18-2009, 12:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uowd7reqEX8&feature=channel_page

some really nice lowlight footage

http://vimeo.com/5493717

cool bw footage

initial impressions is that the gh1 gives a more cinematic look. but still it's very very impressive and apparently IN STOCK right now... at least at amazon. still very early but it'll be quite interesting to see what else people come up with.