PDA

View Full Version : GH1 UK version a better way to go?



Boz
05-11-2009, 10:18 AM
I'm beginning to think the way to go on the GH1 is to get the UK version. Follow my logic here...

The 1080-25P mode has no cumbersome 60i wrapper to deal with, which is nice. Also, since it's compressing only 25 frames a second instead of 60i frames wouldn't the compression be better as well? The 720-25P mode would give better results than 30P (less frames to compress) and it is much closer to 24P (little to no conversion). The biggest downside I see is the loss of 60P for slow-mo, which while missed, I don't think it's the end of the world.

Am I missing something here? At this point it seems the better way to go. I would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

(Let's not go back into the general GH1 Pros/Cons - that's been rehashed to death - I'm purely interested in pros/cons of US vs UK version of GH1)

TrueIndigo
05-11-2009, 10:38 AM
Yeah, I can't add anything but I'm interested in knowing more about this myself since I'll be getting a UK camera anyway. If the datarate (VBR for AVCHD and CBR for MJPEG) is the same for PAL as it is for NTSC, then if shared between less fps there's more data for each frame. The question is, will it be significant enough in the real world to make a difference? I guess the only way to know is having two tripod cameras side-by-side shooting the same scene and compare the images visually and counting the numbers...

Martti Ekstrand
05-11-2009, 10:49 AM
The mjpeg option is 30 FPS in both NTSC and PAL versions. (Bummer for us in 50 Hz lands)

The AVCHD 1080 is 25P and the 720 is 50P in PAL. So bit less slo-mo than NTSC.

AVCHD daterates are the same which should give a little more information per frame in PAL version.

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/Products/LUMIX+Digital+Cameras/G+Micro+System/DMC-GH1/Specification/2146697/index.html

cheers

Ian-T
05-11-2009, 10:53 AM
But don't you still have to deal with a 50i wrapper while shooting 25p? Which means it would be compressing 50i fields per second.

Boz
05-11-2009, 11:21 AM
Whoa, so they put 1080-25P in a 50i wrapper? Color me wrong then! Not as much as benefit as I thought. And no 720-25P mode? Lameness. OK, maybe the Pros aren't as strong as I thought. :-/

codeloss
05-11-2009, 11:29 AM
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think there's any difference between 25p and 25p in a 50i wrapper.

The codec might treat it as interlaced material, which would mean it's a bit less efficient, but this shouldn't make for any extra work in post.

Norbert
05-11-2009, 12:02 PM
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I don't think there's any difference between 25p and 25p in a 50i wrapper.Your reasoning is correct. We need no pulldown.

Bummer we don't get mjpeg at 25p, or even 50p like Philip Bloom made me believe for a short while. All I can hope for now is that 50p -> 25p works at least as good as 60p -> 24p, which it should.

Kholi
05-11-2009, 12:12 PM
It should work without flaw, honestly.

The 60 to 24, to me, is just close enough to pass the audience eye, but 24 isn't half of 60.

50 is certainly half of 25 so UK cameras should have it much easier.

I know that a bunch of people will say "you'd better not do that", I dont' think Stu at ProLost agrees at all but from my experience (I'm not legend, though, so take it with a grain of salt) it just looks fine to me.

xbourque
05-11-2009, 12:19 PM
But don't you still have to deal with a 50i wrapper while shooting 25p? Which means it would be compressing 50i fields per second.

Even though it's 50i, both fields were snapped at the same moment in time. That means that for all intents and purposes, the PAL GH1 shoots 1920x1080@25p. No pull down to remove. No conversion in post.


All I can hope for now is that 50p -> 25p works at least as good as 60p -> 24p

Going from 50 -> 25 is much simpler than 60 to 24. You just need to throw away every other frame!

Another benefit of using a PAL GH1 is that while shooting 1280x720@50p, you can shoot with a 1/50th shutter, which means that you'd be much closer to typical film shutter speeds.

Drawbacks would be:

1- Can't overcrank to 60p (as noted above)
2- Having to deal with sound retiming if you intend to deliver 24p or 23.976p.
3- Possible flickering issues with some artificial light sources in 60hz countries (although shooting 24p should be afflicted by the same problems? No?)
4- Price? How does the euro/pound pricing relate to USD?

-- X

AdrianF
05-11-2009, 12:28 PM
Being that I will buying a European model anyway, this has had me thinking. I think it should simplify some of the conversion, going 50i to 25p is usually a pretty straightforward practice. The only thing I'm not straight on is how the 720 is going to work. The specs are saying, 720 50p AVCHD + 720 30p mjpeg, but I saw a post by Phil Bloom where he stated that the model he has only does 50p mjpeg. I think I quoted that right?
I was thinking that going for a 720 25p master was the way to go, using something like JES to create slow mo's. Until the European models start shipping it's a bit of guess really.

If you're across the pond, a dollar conversion will make the European model a bit more expensive!

squig
05-11-2009, 02:34 PM
Haven't you americans figured out yet everything is better in the PAL world :)

you could always buy a second GH1 for overcranking

Imaginate
05-11-2009, 05:19 PM
I'd love to see the difference between 720 50p AVCHD shot at 1/50 of a second dropped on a 25p timeline vs. 720 60p AVCHD shot at 1/60 of a second dropped on a 24p timeline.

In theory the pal camera should look better.

Boz
05-11-2009, 05:45 PM
Interesting. So it does sound like the UK version may be a better way to go then. Has a price been announced for that? I'm wonder how much of a premium I would have to pay to enjoy those benefits.

Squig: Buy two? If I could afford two I'd be buying an HMC of some sort, or just waiting for Scarlet. :-)

squig
05-11-2009, 06:08 PM
you might have some trouble with 60hz scrolling waves under fluoro and sodium vapor lights but if the bit-rate is the same for 25p you're talking 20% less compression.

Boz
05-11-2009, 06:11 PM
Wouldn't the same problem (flouro & sodium light flicker) be present in 24P as well? I think the only way to really get rid of that is to shoot 30P / 60P, but I'm not 100% sure of that.

squig
05-11-2009, 06:31 PM
I think it's more about setting the shutter speed to 1/60. I haven't heard the D90 shooters in the US complain about not being able get rid of scrolling waves and it's 24p.

The amount of compression may be the same considering the AVCHD is VBR. It's a shame the mjpeg isn't 24p.

Boz
05-11-2009, 07:47 PM
It's a shame the mjpeg isn't 24p.

That one addition alone would be huge for me. (Are you listening Panasonic?)

squig
05-11-2009, 08:50 PM
you're becoming quite the GH1 fanboy boz, reconsidering your reconsidered order?

I think 24p mjpeg is a viable firmware update option.

there is an effective 30p to 24p workflow- http://dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1557941&postcount=177

Norbert
05-12-2009, 01:52 AM
The only thing I'm not straight on is how the 720 is going to work. The specs are saying, 720 50p AVCHD + 720 30p mjpeg, but I saw a post by Phil Bloom where he stated that the model he has only does 50p mjpeg. I think I quoted that right?I saw this too and got very excited, because that could give you 720/25p mjpeg without a problem, and since mjpeg would be a lot easier on my system I would shoot it all the time if it were really 50p. I hope the specs are wrong. Philip mentioned it several times so I don't think it was a typo from his side.

daveswan
05-12-2009, 06:18 AM
The quoted price is 1300 inc 15% tax. Remember we get shafted over here on prices, something US folks may want to consider before buying UK stock.

My calculator says about 1100 exc tax, which at $1.5 gives on the order of $1658, plus you've got to add on any import duty (Paying twice, UK and US), and any sales taxes, like our VAT. Oh ye, and shipping.

Dave

daveswan
05-12-2009, 06:20 AM
Sorry, just to be clear, You would have already paid the Japan-EU-UK import duty, then US. I don't know if you can claim back the UK duty, might be worth the try

AdrianF
05-12-2009, 10:44 AM
Don't know if this has been mentioned already but the other limit, at least on the UK model, is the recording time of 30 minutes. Not a problem for me, but if you plan to shoot any lengthy coverage it could be.

Boz
05-12-2009, 05:03 PM
you're becoming quite the GH1 fanboy boz, reconsidering your reconsidered order?

I've come dangerously close to cancelling my order on a few occasions - but I figure I have until at least June 1 before I have to make up my mind. If they can just give us a better 24P solution it would be such a no brainer to get this camera. Or if I at least knew they were going to fix it. But sadly, I think they'll just leave it be and say 'it's good enough for a consumer cam'. So the question is, do I live with it or no? Everything else is great about the cam.

Dave: Thanks for the info about UK GH1 cost and taxes. That could be quite a premium to pay. Not sure if it's worth it or not.

squig
05-12-2009, 07:43 PM
Right now with anything less than a red one there's gonna be compromises. The GH1 appears to be the least compromised and is super cheap for what it can deliver. If you can stroke the codec and live with some headaches in post I think it's well worth it. There's always workarounds.

John Caballero
05-12-2009, 07:55 PM
Where I buy my cameras I have 7 days to return it. Thats plenty of time to work with it for myself and decide for myself how good or bad it might be. Then if I don't like it I can return it. But I know I won't be return it. Forget about what others have done with it, you have to try it yourself. I haven't heard a thing about how the different settings lile Color Tone Settings affect the image. It even has a setting called Nature, exclusively to deal with the greens and texture of foliage. Did anybody tried that and see how it affects the image or not? In the Advance Scene Mode settings there is one named Scenery by example. How does that affect foliage? There is one there for night scene. How is that one? There are way too many unanswered questions about this camera and its many different settings that need to be analyzed by yourself holding the camera in your own hands. There is no other way around that.

commanderspike
05-12-2009, 10:20 PM
Surely the US MODEL is the way to go?

No 30 minute recording limit.
60i for better slow mo.
International language options inc. chinese, etc.
Oh...and much cheaper.

Soultrape
05-13-2009, 06:20 AM
Surely the US MODEL is the way to go?

No 30 minute recording limit.
60i for better slow mo.
International language options inc. chinese, etc.
Oh...and much cheaper.

And flickering image for us in PAL Land?

commanderspike
05-13-2009, 06:47 AM
Under 50hz lighting?

How big a problem will this likely present in practical use? Or is it just a minor issue?

AdrianF
05-13-2009, 06:48 AM
Well for those waiting to order a UK model, it looks like the wait will be until mid june, according to amateur photograpgher

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Panasonic_UK_GH1_camera_not_ready_for_May_launch_n ews_282288.html

Isaac_Brody
05-13-2009, 07:28 AM
Well for those waiting to order a UK model, it looks like the wait will be until mid june, according to amateur photograpgher

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/news/Panasonic_UK_GH1_camera_not_ready_for_May_launch_n ews_282288.html


I saw that. I don't want to read into but I hope this means they're still ironing out bugs and listening to the online chatter when it comes to firmware. Doubt that's the case but we can hope. :beer:

Ian-T
05-13-2009, 07:58 AM
I with you on that.

pix2pixels
05-13-2009, 08:02 AM
Under 50hz lighting?

How big a problem will this likely present in practical use? Or is it just a minor issue?

A lot of LOW available light scenarios: offices, shops, public spaces, streets, TV screens, sport arenas with fluoro - discharge lighting.

Just about anywhere, except for candle lit intimate scenes to be shot with f.075 C mount lenses or flicker free HMIs :huh:

pix2pixels
05-13-2009, 08:12 AM
Under 50hz lighting?

How big a problem will this likely present in practical use? Or is it just a minor issue?

If Vincent Laforet would have shot the 'Reverie' in Paris, London or Rome instead of New York, Canon would have pulled or banned the video out of embaressment. Not quite flicker free.

AdrianF
05-13-2009, 08:38 AM
I saw that. I don't want to read into but I hope this means they're still ironing out bugs and listening to the online chatter when it comes to firmware. Doubt that's the case but we can hope. :beer:

Yeah, it might be wishful thinking, but it does make you wonder. Will just have to wait a few more weeks, but it feels like they've just postponed Christmas to me!

On the flicker issue, how much of a problem has flicker actually been for European 5D shooters. If I remember, one of the first low light tests I saw that really impressed me was shot at night in the UK, under street lights. Also conversely for the PAL GH1, Phil Blooms footage shot at the snooker table seemed to hold up okay in this respect. If the shutter can be adjusted, then shouldn't you be able avoid this under some lights?

Boz
05-13-2009, 12:46 PM
I saw that. I don't want to read into but I hope this means they're still ironing out bugs and listening to the online chatter when it comes to firmware. Doubt that's the case but we can hope. :beer:

I would happily wait a few extra months for release if it meant they were going to fix some of the problems.

EDIT: This is where the openess that Red display's would be kind of nice. If Panasonic released on time but simply said, 'we are aware of the problems and working on solutions - a fix will come soon.' - even that would be enough for me to fully commit to this camera.

Isaac_Brody
05-13-2009, 01:09 PM
EDIT: This is where the openess that Red display's would be kind of nice. If Panasonic released on time but simply said, 'we are aware of the problems and working on solutions - a fix will come soon.' - even that would be enough for me to fully commit to this camera.

Are you joking? :)

If Panasonic had posted specs for this camera a year ago and then changed the release date and specs four times over the course of six months would that make people happy? I would take not knowing what's up Red's sleeve instead of the roller coaster of PDF marketing materials that changed every few weeks. Makes your head spin... :2vrolijk_08:

I could stand with less openness from Red. Things changing every few weeks just means you can't plan a shoot around their products because "specs and release dates are subject to change." If RED announced right before they delivered that would be awesome. I'd prefer, "Hey, we've been working on this top secret 3K 4/3 interchangeable lens version of Scarlet for the past eight months. And guess what, we're going to start shipping it in three weeks at a cost of 3K." That would make me happy. What was supposed to be a Summer release is turning into fall, which of course we all predicted would happen in the first place. [/END RANT]

Kholi
05-13-2009, 01:14 PM
Agreed, completely. The bait tactics are old.

John Caballero
05-13-2009, 01:56 PM
That is RED's weakness. Is make it up as we go. The big names work on products silently for sometimes years until they get it together and even when they come out there are still bugs to fix. You can't magically say we have an idea for a new camera and boom its here. It takes a lot of efffort to make new technology work. And the business of RED ever changing and evolving in front of our eyes with no product in sight is pretty frustrating to watch.

la838
05-13-2009, 02:26 PM
An example of light flickering?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Bhf2osUXM

joe 1008
05-13-2009, 03:02 PM
This flickering is probably because of a wrong shutter speed. CMOS sensors should always be exposed at 1/60 (and 1/50 in PAL area)

Other question: What happens to a PAL camera with 50p in NTSC-countries? Is there flicker because of the framerate or not?

Boz
05-13-2009, 03:46 PM
Are you joking? :)

If Panasonic had posted specs for this camera a year ago and then changed the release date and specs four times over the course of six months would that make people happy? I would take not knowing what's up Red's sleeve instead of the roller coaster of PDF marketing materials that changed every few weeks. Makes your head spin... :2vrolijk_08:

I could stand with less openness from Red. Things changing every few weeks just means you can't plan a shoot around their products because "specs and release dates are subject to change." If RED announced right before they delivered that would be awesome. I'd prefer, "Hey, we've been working on this top secret 3K 4/3 interchangeable lens version of Scarlet for the past eight months. And guess what, we're going to start shipping it in three weeks at a cost of 3K." That would make me happy. What was supposed to be a Summer release is turning into fall, which of course we all predicted would happen in the first place. [/END RANT]

I pretty much agree with everything you said and I feel the same way. However, in this case what I was talking about was what Red has done with the Red One AFTER they released it. They continued to improve it with 17 firmware updates! So, in this specific case it would be nice to know if, 1) Panasonic even considers what we're griping about to be legitimate, 2) Panasonic intends to 'fix' the GH1 with a patch, and 3) When that patch would come out. It's THAT KIND of openness I was talking about. Even a statement saying from Panny saying "it's fine the way it is" would be helpful at this point.

squig
05-13-2009, 04:10 PM
anyone live near panasonic US HQ? just approach the head of marketing and ask.

Panasonic Corporation of North America
Consumer Affairs Division
Panazip 2F-3
One Panasonic Way
Secaucus, NJ 07094

John Caballero
05-13-2009, 04:11 PM
anyone live near panasonic us hq? Just approach the head of marketing and ask

lol.

Park Edwards
05-13-2009, 05:27 PM
17,500 for a camera...gee I wonder what possessed them release 17 updates for a camera that was supposed to be final when released. it just doesn't make sense.

squig
05-13-2009, 05:39 PM
lol.

oh good a volunteer

John Caballero
05-13-2009, 05:41 PM
Next time I bump into him in the supermarket I'll tell him! That's a promise.

squig
05-13-2009, 05:45 PM
Panasonic Executive Vice President Robert Perry
David Briganti, National Marketing Manager, Imaging, Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company

c'mon John ur a longtime panny fanboy. it's a short trek over the river.

squig
05-13-2009, 05:52 PM
"Over the coming months, we will see many changes," trying to win the hearts and minds of buyers and trying to fire up the resellers "whom we need to get behind the product and support it and make sure they communicate our value proposition," Perry said. http://www.cnet.com/8301-13951_1-10187098-63.html

John Caballero
05-13-2009, 05:53 PM
You need a car to get there and I ain't got one. Unless you chip in for round trip cabfare. I would say about $120.00 from Jackson Heights, Queens to Secaucus, N.J. If you call him and tell him I am coming and he gives the OK I'll go.

squig
05-13-2009, 05:55 PM
Ron T Kakimoto
Head, Global Development
Japan

Ichiro Kitao, general manager of Panasonic's imaging product group.

squig
05-13-2009, 06:03 PM
I think a dvxuser group insurgency is in order here. A multi-pronged global attack on every panasonic office globally should get our message across. I can draft a letter on behalf of us all if the mods are cool with that. If a dvxer from each territory can print them out and post them, snail mail is a more personal and effective way to communicate than an email. maybe sonic can mail letters to the japanese execs.

squig
05-13-2009, 06:10 PM
Zoe Susice has been appointed Group Manager, Imaging for Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company, based in Secaucus, N.J. With Susice's appointment, she is responsible for the company's Imaging Group, which encompasses the award-winning Panasonic LUMIX digital cameras.

I need this camera to be all it can be so I'm gonna go on a quaker speak truth to power trip.

Boz
05-13-2009, 06:15 PM
Barry Green has the ear of Panasonic, but even he has said he's not sure how much of what he tells them gets through. (Paraphrasing here, of course.)

commanderspike
05-13-2009, 08:24 PM
Those that say you get flickering lights in PAL regions with the Japanese model may well prevent me from purchasing the camera altogether until my holiday is over and I return to the UK in June, so please... no unresearched comments - let's get this issue nailed once and for all!

Panasonic state: Full-HD (1920 1080) movies are output by the image sensor at 24p (NTSC)/25p (PAL), and recorded at 60i (NTSC)/50i (PAL). HD (1280 720) movies are output and recorded by the image sensor at 60p (NTSC)/50p (PAL).

Full HD recorded at 60i then deinterlaced to non-native 24p for the NTSC model, the camera would be slightly out of sync with UK 50hz lighting & PAL TV sets, causing the flicker? However, don't most PAL HD camcorders record at 60i anyway?

I have no problem the other way round, with my PAL HD Canon HF100 camcorder under 60hz lighting in Taiwan.

Is the issue more to do with the shutter speed than the frame rate? So if you changed the shutter to 1/50 instead of 1/60, that would be a fix?

Also could it be the interlacing causing the flicker, and progressive scan 24p solves this issue?

Please help clear this up - it's very confusing. Why do we need 25p PAL and 24p NTSC in this day and age, and why is NTSC 24 (lower) but 60i higher (than 50i)? Strange.