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Kholi
05-09-2009, 11:38 PM
I'm done "testing". I'm just lookin' for something serious to shoot with the camera now but before I do a full-on write-up, dialog and field guide to getting what you can out of thing I kind of want to put it out there:

The 1080/24P from this camera is adequate for most narrative situations. By Adequate I mean about average; acceptable; don't expect the whole pie.

I came to this conclusion by going out and just shooting in some Thrift Stores with the camera in 720/60, 720/30 MJPEG and 1080/24. Various shutter speeds, but the major point is that I was in a thrift store with a quality image that outshines several large cameras on aesthetics, not technical merits.

And I didn't avoid anything, I shot what I would normally shoot, HOW I would normally shoot in all modes, purposely putting out of my mind what I KNEW would happen if I did this or that.

Most of my footage was 1080/24P, and after bringing it home and jamming the SDHC Card into my PS3, watching it back while sitting on the couch (not two to three feet in front of a Computer LCD, which tends to exemplify flaws in ALL footage, not just smaller cameras-- RED as well) my final thought is that you can definitely use 1080/24.

You probably shouldn't use it for:

1) High Detail Wides
2) extreme motion (Car shots, anything crazy like that, very livid Bourne Style camera action)
3) Anything you may need to Key out because interlace residue will probably bite you in the ass.

But for those things you can ALWAYS shoot 720/30P MJPEG or 720/60P AVCHD, both which have shown incredible resiliance to just about every shooting situation I could shove this sucker in.

There are workarounds, it's been that way since the dawn of video and it's still here. Hell even RED has it's workarounds, and that's the holy grail of Video Acquisition right now.

Sure, if you're looking for the utmost pristine image you can get you should look elsewhere, because you'll probably be scrutinizing every frame.

If your content is anything like these titles:

- November
- 28 Days Later
- The Signal
- Primer
- Let the Right One In
(Just some off of the top of my head)

This camera's image at 1080/24P will do. The rest is up to you, to be honest. I can't see any of the flaws that I've brought to light destroying anything that's worth watching in the first place.

I order a LOT of HD On Demand and ANYONE who watches HD On Demand features already knows that in any intense situations-- be it high detail or fast motion, lots of vibrant colors-- the signal gets SHREDDED.

Well, I've never complained about it. I noticed, but it never stopped me from continuing to watch the feature, and I never went back and said "Man this would have been so much better if the compression was better! GAHD".

This is the happiest I've ever been with a camera that wasn't RED. It's this tiny-ass awesome image that I paid next-to-nothing for that I can really do whatever I want with. I can carry it and a small camera bag with glass in it and shoot it up.

Be it just messing around, on a plane, on a train, in a thrift store entertaining myself while the girlfriend shops (footage coming soon) or shooting something serious.

I'm not backing out on my initial impression of 1080/24. As a measurebator it's not there, but I've still got the ability (when I'm ready to use it) to step away from the DVXuser mentality and look at it like an audience member would.

On a television just watching the pretty images go by one by one.

More 1080/24 stealth footage in some Thrift Stores coming soon, along with my own official "Field Guide".

Zak Forsman
05-10-2009, 12:03 AM
Thank you, Mr. Hicks.

squig
05-10-2009, 12:05 AM
looking forward to shooting up (widescreen anamorphic stylie)

thx kholi

mrmoe
05-10-2009, 12:19 AM
Thanks Kholi, Look Forward.

Imaginate
05-10-2009, 12:31 AM
Thanks for the objective testing and reporting.

Rakesh Jacob
05-10-2009, 03:18 AM
Thnx bro and really looking forward to more of what you've done!

kyrre
05-10-2009, 04:07 AM
Thanks! I've been reading pretty much everything you've written on GH1.

TrueIndigo
05-10-2009, 04:34 AM
Can't wait for the conclusions and field guide -- excellent forum support, Kholi, many thanks.

Uwe Lansing
05-10-2009, 05:35 AM
Good work - thx Kholi. Besides the image quality can you give us some more details about the handling? Iīve read that you had some problems to hold this tiny little thing steady. Do you think itīs impossible to get good handheld results with this baby? How is it in comparison to the D90 or 5DII in this regard? Is the menu structure intuitive + is it easy to find the right adjustments? I know you have the japanese model, but even so maybe you can say something about it...

joe 1008
05-10-2009, 05:52 AM
This is the happiest I've ever been with a camera that wasn't RED.

wow...

John Caballero
05-10-2009, 06:56 AM
Thanks. Let it be the beginning of great things to come. Panasonic steps up to the plate once again. There is no turning point for this little creatures. In the not so distance future they will be everything we want it to be. As a photographer and videographer is the most exciting moment since the advent of the DSLR itself and the birth of the digital photography era. Keep the good shooting Mr. Hicks and everybody that plan to get the GH1.

divide
05-10-2009, 06:57 AM
Nice to read 1080p is ok in the end for most situations :) Anyway I plan to use it with gentle, narrative steadishots, so it should work pretty good !

Mini-Red, come to me now ! ...In a red body !

Nighthawk
05-10-2009, 07:02 AM
Kholi, can't thank you enough for all this. Panasonic should be feeling the same way.

DavidNJ
05-10-2009, 07:18 AM
Thanks for the insights. One thing that strikes me is that the 5DM2 footage was all so striking...not the Canon paid for shoot but all the first impression footage posted. By comparison, even in your write up, the footage from the GH1 seems all have asterisks from the shooter. And nothing really knocks your socks off.

However, while there is a lot of talk of jello, shutters speeds, and 24p, there are three settings that may not have been fully explored: contrast, noise reduction, and iExposure.

Most of the shots involve some motion. With the MJPEG being recorded at nearly double the speed, it would be interesting to see a comparison of a still life, a picture with no motion.

All the specs say, especially with fast glass, the image off the sensor should be a match for the Canon. Add the manual controls. Is it being lost in on-camera image processing (which may corrected with the camera settings) or is it lost in compression (which would be uncorrectable)?

Still an interesting camera *for the price; however, that asterisk shouldn't have been necessary.

Nitsuj
05-10-2009, 07:21 AM
Thanks for your efforts! I have been watching everything you have said and it is all great information for when I pick one up. Two thumbs.

artforme
05-10-2009, 07:25 AM
sounds good, I look forward to your field guide. :thumbup:

SonicStates
05-10-2009, 07:40 AM
Yeah Kholi, you have made the learning process a real fun experience (along with Hunter, Phillip Bloom and others). To have the technical explanation along with my own experience has been very helpful.
Cheers,
Sam.

joe 1008
05-10-2009, 08:30 AM
Most of the shots involve some motion. With the MJPEG being recorded at nearly double the speed, it would be interesting to see a comparison of a still life, a picture with no motion.

Me too would be interested in more information about the MJPEG option. For example: Is the sensor read out at 60p and therefore with few rolling shutter?

And, contrary to David, I would like to see comparisions of footage that breaks the AVCHD codec; a lot of motion, detail and colour information. Thatīs where MJPEG could be superior. We would be back to 30p but it might save us in some situations...

Not to mention that my over two years old MacBood would be happy with MJPEG.

LoganMackay
05-10-2009, 09:05 AM
Thanks so much for all your posts and info Kholi.

sunburst
05-10-2009, 09:22 AM
Thanks for writeup,

Did you try any GRADING on the 1920, 24 p? :huh: Or on a prorez full HD conversion?

After removing pulldown, to 24p conversion with say tmpgenc, is anyone still seeing interlace artifacts on the full hd 1920? are these the so called b frames?

Has anyone tried pulling a key?

I'm feeling a bit better about the cam now. I was a confirmed buyer at first,
then gradually grew disallusioned.

I'm still thinking this will complement my other cams.

But, I'm really wanting the full HD 1920. 24p. No excuses.

We tend to get acclimated to what we've been watching. I understand channels like HD On Demand, barely pump out poorly compressed 720 P , right? Well put a bluray in your player, and your gonna see SUPER sharp 1920 images. On Demand is of course, nothing to aspire to look wise.

The Indie fights the fact, most Hollywood features have pristine Hi rez negatives, sitting in storage, that can be used for any release format.

Im still on the fence. Lost the feeling of rushing to buy. If I wait six months, the price
will be lower anyway. Now im curious what other vendors have around the bend?


thanks

ryansheffer
05-10-2009, 09:47 AM
If it makes anyone feel better. I downloaded the H.264 shakey hand stuff Kholi put on vimeo and converted it to 1080p24. Truth is. It looked incredible. And thats converting from his conversion.

The upres from 720p for action stuff is more than acceptable.

Rakesh Jacob
05-10-2009, 09:47 AM
Thanks for the insights. One thing that strikes me is that the 5DM2 footage was all so striking...not the Canon paid for shoot but all the first impression footage posted. By comparison, even in your write up, the footage from the GH1 seems all have asterisks from the shooter. And nothing really knocks your socks off.


Still an interesting camera *for the price; however, that asterisk shouldn't have been necessary.

Totaly agree with this. I am so afraid to plop down $3500 on a cam/lens though when a dope ass solution might be around the corner. I don't think Canon is gonna fix it's own issues because they have a huge video division that's probably super pissed unless they get to put an inferior aps-c sensor (inferior to 5d that is) in a sub 10k video cam. Of course that's the big rummor right now but damn, we have a $1500 solution that is sooooo close. I think the game changers might still be Nikon , Olympus, Pentax, Fuji or the like; companies with no video division (of significance anyway) to canabalize from! If one of them can get it right, we could see some really cool amazing things in the next 18 months :beer:

EDIT: and if Nikon gets it right, Sony makes thier sensors, so we could even see Sony reverse engineering it and joining the race with a DX sensor, prosumer formfactor, XDcamEX solution!! :)

dcloud
05-10-2009, 10:02 AM
bottomline stick with static not too much complex movement on 1080 24p.
get a real video cam if you want something better. :)

Kholi
05-10-2009, 10:09 AM
bottomline stick with static not too much complex movement on 1080 24p.
get a real video cam if you want something better. :)

That'll never happen. LoL. Even real video cameras are still not enough for most people around here.

Sad truth.

If you don't even need a camera right now why bother? Just wait... and wait some more.. then wait a little more. That's the best way to go about it.

If you need one right now and you're unsatisfied with what's out then shoot film or RED.

Pretty simple solutions.

sunburst
05-10-2009, 10:14 AM
If it makes anyone feel better. I downloaded the H.264 shakey hand stuff Kholi put on vimeo and converted it to 1080p24. Truth is. It looked incredible. And thats converting from his conversion.

The upres from 720p for action stuff is more than acceptable.

this is interesting. :)

I don't know much about vimeo. Was Kholis upload already
24p? and you just uprezzed it? to full hd 1920-24p?

what SOFTWARE did you use for uprez?

so that's

a AVCHD 1920- 60i

b to Prores 24 { not sure of the steps here }

c to vimeo conversion , upload

d to your uprez right?

{ps, as some might note, I keep using the term full hd 1920 , instead of the proper 1080p, because so many have 1440 hdv. }

Kholi
05-10-2009, 10:16 AM
I uploaded a 720/24P File that came from original 720/60P footage. It's on Vimeo for download.

If you want to find out how the footage plays, Sonic has uploaded several 1080 samples. Convert, pulldown and grade them at your leisure. Then, burn them to a Blu Ray disc and see how they play.

That's what I recommend.

sunburst
05-10-2009, 10:29 AM
I uploaded a 720/24P File that came from original 720/60P footage. It's on Vimeo for download.

Thanks Kholi, I just joined and now I see it.


Sonic has uploaded several 1080 samples. Convert, pulldown and grade them at your leisure. Then, burn them to a Blu Ray disc and see how they play.

good advice. thanks.

Rakesh Jacob
05-10-2009, 11:25 AM
That'll never happen. LoL. Even real video cameras are still not enough for most people around here.

Sad truth.

If you don't even need a camera right now why bother? Just wait... and wait some more.. then wait a little more. That's the best way to go about it.

If you need one right now and you're unsatisfied with what's out then shoot film or RED.

Pretty simple solutions.

Not sure how much of that was directed to my comment or people with simillar views, but I ment what I said in a very hopeful way!!! I am freaking excited as all get out. I allready warned my wife that in the next 12-18months that I will more than likely buy atleast a half dozen or so cameras. I see this sub-segment growing rapidly. I think I have realistic expectations from the first gen vDSLRs and WILL shoot with them and WILL buy the 2nd, 3rd, 4th... gen cams as well.
The Red is awesome! But I don't want to deal with the workflow. I'm, from what I can tell, one of the few people that is happy with AVCHD. Just like the vDSLRs, AVCHD is a work in progress and getting better all the time. Panny's implimentation of it is some what lacking compared to say Canon's Vixia series, someone mentioned that in another post and got his sh!t jumped LOL.
The GH1 is BADASS!!!! I can't say that enough. But it's also an "almost there" cam like the 5DmkII. In many ways it's a lot further along than the 5DmkII, but the 5D has a brutally badass image. It's kinda like a Chevelle with a bigblock Chevy and a 3 speed automatic with bad suspension. It's gat raw power but sh!tty controls.
I would have allready had a 5DmkII but I just bought a house and needed the liquid assessts and didnt want to charge up my horrble looking revolving debt, my wife would have killed me if we didn't get our house cause of a cam LOL. But now that we are in, she knows not to f--k with me when I'm this excited over gear! I'm a proud gear slut and am looking forward to a red GH1 (soooo hottt). But truthfully I also want a 5D right now. Obviously the GH1 is easier/cheaper for me to justify throwing away when the next gens hit the market.

But in the end this whole thing is a work in progress and "hey this is awesome and it's fine the way it is, deal with it or piss off," isn't going to push the market as well as "thnx, this is awesome, but you know there's a way to go yet."
That's all I was really trying to say bro. :beer:

Kholi
05-10-2009, 11:29 AM
Wasn't directed toward you. Just a general statement. I'm part of that crowd as well, but gradually falling out of it, mostly because of RED so I'm lucky.

Just sayin' that nothing's really enough for most of us. ANd it is pretty sad, because nothing like that ever stopped several people doing it up right now.

Ah well!

Rakesh Jacob
05-10-2009, 11:44 AM
The RED is so FREAKING COMPELLING, the more I look at clips from it the more I feel like diving in!! But when I counter the ease of use/workflow in production and post production of the vDSLRs and how close they are getting in image... Sophie's choice in this b!tch LOL. Ok not really, hope I didn't offend any one with that comparison.
And being a gear slut with OCD, when I think of how many cool new cams I'll be able to buy with the same amount of money... BOIIIIINNNG!
And before any one says anything about renting... did I mention my OCD? I will not (can not) use anything that doesn't belong to me. I have to own what I use or I don't wanna touch it. I'm a grown ass giant 5 yo screaming MINE!! MINE!!!
Atleast I don't smoke crack although sometimes I wonder if that would be a healthier habit :huh:

Kholi
05-10-2009, 11:50 AM
I hear ya man. I think I'm finally satisfied on a basic level. And I'll just keep doing the "upgrade" thing @ 750.00 a piece, something like that.

Also, next time I get a camera earlier I'm not posting anything about it for a few weeks. Not until I've wrangled it like I did this camera. People take posts way out of context.

Not you, Rakesh, just in general.

DavidNJ
05-10-2009, 12:07 PM
I don't think you were really taken out of context. If anything, your posts tried to be very fair and objective. However, fair and objective tends to be a bit more critical than we had hoped for.

Under the covers, there appear to be three engineering factors that missed out:

1) Recording speed is way too slow. It appears to be coming off the camera closer to 16Mb/s vs. 43-45Mb/s for the Canon in 1080p modes and the same compression in 720p modes.

2) The processing speed is two slow in low frame rates causing excessive rolling shutter artifacts. If their circuits let the processing be clocked independently of the frame rate then this may be a firmware fix. It is something soccer moms would notice.

3) The default settings appear to be off. Crushed blacks, too much noise reduction at the expense of detail, etc. How much this can be corrected within the constraints of the recording speed remains to be seen. However, the defaults should have been good out of the box; that is what the soccer moms will see. However, if different settings work better this probably can be fixed in firmware.

The economic downturn may have forced them to cut some corners as launch approached, which may account for some of the possibly firmware fixable items.

In the end a good camera, certainly competitive at its price point and because of the better glass possibly a good choice for some types of work. A talking head in a documentary or corporate video doesn't move much. 720p60 can be used on the shop/store floor.

Just...we were hoping...I was hoping...this would be everything it could be.

Rakesh Jacob
05-10-2009, 12:19 PM
What ever the future holds, I have a feeling this will be one of the epic and possibly defining discussions in this genre of cameras and Kholi, you were a huge motivating factor in all this!!!
Now it's time to make a movie or two, what ever ends up in my lap in June is gonna get the job; 5DmkII, GH1 or stick with what I got (HVX200a+LEX).
Any one wanna help me produce a near future, character driven feature about a religious war in Europe that happens in 2025?

BrianMurphy
05-10-2009, 12:59 PM
Kholi,
Thanks for all the hard work, writing, research and above all patience with all the questions you have had to field. I have, like many, been following your posts and those by Hunter and Phil with great interest and have decided to buy this camera as a second for my HMC 150 based on what I have been reading.
Not sure if I would agree the Red is the Holy Grail of acquisition....more the "height of hype" in my mind and experience with it but that is another discussion.
I have to say I enjoyed the "journey" that your were on with the camera and really like the day to day posts. Not as "pristine" as some would like it but the real work of evaluation came through. Well done!
Best
Brian

squig
05-10-2009, 01:30 PM
I was getting prepared to shoot my feature with 2 D90s. Kholi and Hunter have demonstrated that the GH1 is a step up. Would I like more? of-course but I can't wait forever. I'll be keeping a close eye on the Pentax K-7 and the D400 but I'm gearing up to start shooting with the GH1. The low sticker price of this thing leaves me with a bit of cash to go nuts with things I could have only dreamed of in the past like an anamorphic lens. I'm gonna push this toy as far as it can go. If panasonic make some improvements to the next model I'll buy a bunch of them for my epic and destroy them.

Kholi
05-10-2009, 01:45 PM
Big apology to anyone watching me debate on proLost with those two people...

I've learned that more people watch these boards and other blogs than any of us really realize, and some people who actually have a good standing name in the industry. I don't want my "youthful aggression" to ruin opportunities for me and I'm still working on just letting things be.

So again, big apology on that.

Can't wait til more people in the US get cameras. Gonna be hard to not keep an eye out on Vimeo and DVxuser for the slew of footages.

saaby
05-10-2009, 02:05 PM
Yeah, despite it's flaws, I'm still psyched about this camera. Looking at Panasonic's past...DVX100<DVX100A<DVX100B and similar with the HVX, I am sure that eventually there will be a GH1A or GH2. If I could wait until then, it would be nice, but I have things to shoot, and I'd much rather be shooting on a slightly flawed GH1 than depending on being able to get equipment from other places, which sometimes means not having equipment at all. A (slightly) flawed picture is better than no picture at all!

I feel like there hasn't really been enough buzz about this camera, I feel like it's kind of a 'sleeper' right now -- but I have a hunch once this camera really gets out into the market (and especially if/when a firmware update or major revision fix some of these naggies 6-months or a year from now) this camera will be used and beloved by the very same types of people that made the original DVX successful.

So if this camera isn't for you right now, that's fine -- but don't be doubting because this camera is going to do amazing things!

John Caballero
05-10-2009, 02:30 PM
BTW: Kholi , would you maybe see an improvement to the sharpness and performance with foliage background in 1080p24 wide angle if you closed the lens to 16 or 22 aperture or whatever the highest is on the lens? With wides you get deep focus anyway, so maybe closing will yield better results?

ChipG
05-10-2009, 02:37 PM
I think it is a sleeper due to the fact the there are so many still photographers in the world that want to get into the video side of the business but only feel comfortable with DSLR size cameras and lenses. Imagine shooting a model and now you can give your client a video of the shoot for web promotion and not have to hire a second camera op and video cam. That right there just paid for the DSLR cam in one day + you can charge more for the video, no brainer.

The best image now for an indie is Red One, no doubt. For fast mobile stealth run n' gun stuff this camera really shines, I would miss 90% of the shots on my production if all I had was a Red. I would miss 30% of them with an HVX and still not be stealth.

I almost bought a D90 but am glad I waited.

Every cam has its work arounds to minimize its flaws (even Red) so I'm really looking forward learning what they are so I can make it shine.

Kohli, thanks for all the great posts and I will be the first person to read your field guide!

Nighthawk
05-10-2009, 03:45 PM
Thanks to the efforts of Hunter, Philip, Sonic and, especially, Kholi we are left to make a choice. Despite the issues and workarounds needed for this cam I still find it the best choice for what my project calls for and it comes out soon. It's at a price point that us no-budget filmmakers can only dream of to achieve a shallow DOF with a reasonable low light capability and be in any HD format. I'm sad about the artifacting in motion situations but that only means I adjust my shot list accordingly if need be. I'll be sad to say goodbye to my old girl, the DVX but it's time to move on. I've no doubt that the next gen of vDSLRs will kick ass but 'til then I'm stoked about what this camera can provide.

dadoboy
05-10-2009, 03:52 PM
It's both a plus and a minus being very public about your opinions on anything to do with cinema. People often misinterpret one's intentions or just plain want to argue with you to prove their "point" as a kind power. Potential directors/producers can get the wrong idea from reading this stuff, and more than a reel, I find that creative people like to work with people who they get along with.

Some of the great DP's that I've worked for wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between a megabit and megabyte, or AVCHD or HDCAm or MJPEG, but they are nevertheless great film shooters and lighters who manage to do very well shooting with RED or HDCAM without knowing the underlying technology. They leave it up their ACs and DITs. I can just imagine them posting stuff here and getting clobbered for their lack of technicals and looking somewhat ignorant - completely opposite of their real world abilities.


Big apology to anyone watching me debate on proLost with those two people...

I've learned that more people watch these boards and other blogs than any of us really realize, and some people who actually have a good standing name in the industry. I don't want my "youthful aggression" to ruin opportunities for me and I'm still working on just letting things be.

So again, big apology on that.

Can't wait til more people in the US get cameras. Gonna be hard to not keep an eye out on Vimeo and DVxuser for the slew of footages.

squig
05-10-2009, 05:15 PM
Kholi I just read the pro lost thread and I don't know what you're apologizing for. There are always going to be wankers that just don't get it. The morons picking a fight clearly haven't taken the time to read your analysis of the GH1. Your posts just reinforced what you've already told us that you can work with this cam and produce pro results if you have the skills.

I don't know how the industry works in the US but here most people make a living from government funding. Almost every film produced here makes a loss at the box office. Some people could be worried about their job security if people like us start going out shooting features with minimal crews. Some people also get very defensive of their expensive toys when a new toy comes along at a fraction of the cost that can perform better.

Like you I can measurebate and put myself in the shoes of the audience, it's a rare skill that the most successful people have but I'm afraid the people who don't have it will never understand you.

Ian-T
05-10-2009, 05:57 PM
It's funny, when I watch a decent silent flick like this (http://vimeo.com/3151200), shot with a 16mm Arri S with primes, I find all these arguments about the GH-1 or any other camera real silly.

Emanuel
05-10-2009, 06:57 PM
I'm done "testing". I'm just lookin' for something serious to shoot with the camera now but before I do a full-on write-up, dialog and field guide to getting what you can out of thing I kind of want to put it out there:

The 1080/24P from this camera is adequate for most narrative situations. By Adequate I mean about average; acceptable; don't expect the whole pie.

I came to this conclusion by going out and just shooting in some Thrift Stores with the camera in 720/60, 720/30 MJPEG and 1080/24. Various shutter speeds, but the major point is that I was in a thrift store with a quality image that outshines several large cameras on aesthetics, not technical merits.

And I didn't avoid anything, I shot what I would normally shoot, HOW I would normally shoot in all modes, purposely putting out of my mind what I KNEW would happen if I did this or that.

Most of my footage was 1080/24P, and after bringing it home and jamming the SDHC Card into my PS3, watching it back while sitting on the couch (not two to three feet in front of a Computer LCD, which tends to exemplify flaws in ALL footage, not just smaller cameras-- RED as well) my final thought is that you can definitely use 1080/24.

Kholi, have you really changed your POV by any chance? Or you keep three-fourths (not four-thirds ;-) of your initial impressions in private? E. :-)

dadoboy
05-10-2009, 07:07 PM
It looks like they chose to degrade the image even further in post with artifacts like dirt, streaking, etc. ! It's often why some people complain that HD images look too "clean".
The Arri S is a tank, a beauty, a god with three eyes! And you can get one for less than the price of a new GH1 and so much more fun (from what I can recall of my film school days :).


It's funny, when I watch a decent silent flick like this (http://vimeo.com/3151200), shot with a 16mm Arri S with primes, I find all these arguments about the GH-1 or any other camera real silly.

Kholi
05-10-2009, 07:12 PM
Kholi, have you really changed your POV by any chance? Or you keep three-fourths (not four-thirds ;-) of your initial impressions in private? E. :-)

Nah. It's seriously not a "I changed my mind". Just remembering to view things in a different perspective. Two different mindsets, you know?

On one hand I'd love for every camera to have a RED ONE image, minimal. LoL. So with that mindset it's like "Look at that artifact! No way dude."

Then I turn my baseball cap to the other side and start viewing it with Joe Average's eyes and his voice sounds like "Now THIS looks like HD! Like a movie man! Where can I get this camera at!?! 1600.00 !!!! WHAT!?!?!? HolY SH--"

So you see? I still have the same view, just switched baseball caps.

I'm about to watch THE SIGNAL on Blu Ray. XL H1 and Pro35 Adapter. THere's a shot in the movie where the ground glass is off. Anyone remember how much the feature sold for in the end?

Emanuel
05-10-2009, 07:37 PM
LMAO

BTW, and about the GH1 vs. 5D Mark II? What 'baseball cap'? ;-)

Kholi
05-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Yeah, it applies to the MKii as well. Right now it's just a choose your weapon scenario:

http://www.vimeo.com/4582107 (http://www.vimeo.com/user407189/videos)

I got mines! Anyone wanna sword fight!?

Emanuel
05-10-2009, 08:00 PM
My idea -- without any other better guess than as just theory, is:

the 5D Mark II mostly wins in 1080p sharpness, lowlight, DOF though not so relevant granted the large 4/3 size, but after all 'cause has a superior and acceptable higher bitrate codec and true progressive recording mode despite its rolling shutter scanning, it's not interlaced encoding and this makes a difference.

Am I right?

artforme
05-10-2009, 08:36 PM
Kholi, I feel you on the "measurbater" angel.

It's like someone waiting to buy a computer in a year because they will be faster. Which hardly needs to be said, everyone knows a computer continually gets better specs year from year.

If you need a camera today, you get a camera today. If you don't need one, wait a year or 10.

Rakesh Jacob
05-10-2009, 09:08 PM
I got mines! Anyone wanna sword fight!?


Just saw the Thrifty clip, WOWZERS:thumbup: Well worth the wait!
And come June it's on like monkey dong!!!!

"Oh, there's something I ought to tell you... I'm not left-handed either"

squig
05-10-2009, 09:32 PM
I feel a GH1 short film comp coming.....I'll take on all you bitches!

nice work Kholi. now stop jerking off and get out there and make shaolin temple

gmoe
05-10-2009, 10:32 PM
Kholi- the man of ever changing cameras -

Big up! Thanks for all your hard work. (Dude, I'm so jealous that you get to spend your days playing around doing camera tests. The life of a L.A. filmmaker! LOL)

When and if I ever move back to L.A., I would be honored to have you DP for me. Your always pushing the cameras and pushing your craft. Not just for you but for the community here so much respect! :beer:

timbook2
05-11-2009, 07:37 AM
Hey Kholi, thanx for the thrift store shots, they prove that its my camera definately for the obvious reason......

now where and when can I get this cootie in Germany???? NOW !

joe 1008
05-11-2009, 08:20 AM
Kholi, as your clip shows, also downrezzign the 1080p footage to 720p gives good results. Any suggestion to do this in the most controlled way, especially to get rid of aliasing?

reem12
05-11-2009, 08:51 AM
kholi, how much do yoU like the image of your gh1 over say your hpx170 with letus ultimate adapter?

Kholi
05-11-2009, 09:42 AM
reem12 -- Short answer, lots.

joe1008 -- That I don't really know. I just dropped it all onto a timeline then exported a 720? I think compressor should do a better job.

gMoe -- Let me know when you're back, dude!

Thanks for the comments peoples!

Eddy Robinson
05-11-2009, 03:19 PM
In the end a good camera, certainly competitive at its price point and because of the better glass possibly a good choice for some types of work. A talking head in a documentary or corporate video doesn't move much. 720p60 can be used on the shop/store floor.

Fair criticisms, but let's keep it in perspective...if you don't mind wrangling the physical form factor (light weight, small size, and the need to use an external audio recorder for best results, all of which are going to be true for any DSLR-type camcorder), it's a huge amount of camera for the money.

Most people here have experience with shooting a feature or ambitious narrative short on a DVX or similar camcorder in that class. The whole breakthrough with the DVX100 was the ability to shoot something that looked Very Good with an unprecedented combination of ease and low cost.

I think Panasonic have done it again with this camera. Of course there are caveats and limitations, and it will take time to get the best out of it. But I think it has that same game-changing quality. The D90 and 5dII were both exciting cameras, but whenever I envisioned them in production or post there were too many time-killers (the single biggest headache being the need to set/lock the exposure for every shot, bypassing the automatic settings).

The GH1's limitations are predictable ahead of time - X will be fine, Y is not going to look good. That makes it possible to take its limitations into account at the pre-production stage, which makes an enormous difference to me. I am actively exploring my money options to obtain this camera this summer, because this is the first one of its kind that would feel comfortable building a production schedule around.

reem12
05-11-2009, 03:26 PM
I appreciate panny staying true to its organic image, but by no stretch of the imagination can one say the image on the gh1 compares to that of the canon 5d.

Kholi
05-11-2009, 03:28 PM
Well, oddly enough, I just got a job offer specifically for the GH-1 after showing that footage. Industrial gig that wants a very similar look, although structured and coordinated and they couldn't believe I walked out of the house and just shot that on the fly.

Camera saves me once again.

Shot some footage with the stock lens as well, auto focus example and... gasp...

2 x in camera crop example!?!!!??!!

Will post up as soon as I can get it cut.

Kholi
05-11-2009, 03:34 PM
I appreciate panny staying true to its organic image, but by no stretch of the imagination can one say the image on the gh1 compares to that of the canon 5d.


The 5D doesn't really offer that much more than the GH-1 in Video Mode man. It's got much more aliasing issues as far as visuals go.

And regardless of the sensors size, they both have shown excellent lowlight performance.

Second, most of the footage hanging around from the 5D has been graded. We're not even to that point with the GH-1.

Strictly image for image, the 5D still looks amazing but the 5D isn't THAT far ahead of the GH-1. I'd the 1200.00 more you spent to get just a body is about the measure of how much better, which isn't a boatload.

A mere 1080/24 MJPEG setting on the GH-1 will probably clear the remainder of the way, with only FOV and a slight advantage in lowlight performance remaining.

squig
05-11-2009, 04:24 PM
Well, oddly enough, I just got a job offer specifically for the GH-1 after showing that footage. Industrial gig that wants a very similar look, although structured and coordinated and they couldn't believe I walked out of the house and just shot that on the fly.

Camera saves me once again.

Looks like the japanese menu headache is gonna pay off. If I were you I'd take Zak up on his offer and get a graded narrative piece up on vimeo and score some more work while you're still da man. Some kung fu action on his roof would be cool so long as the talent doesn't fall off it.

Ian-T
05-11-2009, 04:44 PM
I see a lot of these comments about how this camera can't touch the 5D's image. Umm...I've seen a lot of bad 5D images also. I think most of these folks are basing their opinions off of Vincent Laforte's piece "Reviere." But since it first came out I always said that as nice as it looks it looked very rushed and even unfinished. I wonder if anyone has asked Mr. Laforte how much of the original footage did he actually throw away before giving us what we now know as the finished product? That and a few other pieces since then have been shot on a professional shoot where this cam has been around only for a little over a week with nothing but casual and test shots. I am looking forward to a production that will blow our socks off actually. But unfortunatley in this case...first impressions are long lasting.

DavidNJ
05-12-2009, 08:13 PM
I see a lot of these comments about how this camera can't touch the 5D's image. Umm...I've seen a lot of bad 5D images also. I think most of these folks are basing their opinions off of Vincent Laforte's piece "Reviere." But since it first came out I always said that as nice as it looks it looked very rushed and even unfinished. I wonder if anyone has asked Mr. Laforte how much of the original footage did he actually throw away before giving us what we now know as the finished product? That and a few other pieces since then have been shot on a professional shoot where this cam has been around only for a little over a week with nothing but casual and test shots. I am looking forward to a production that will blow our socks off actually. But unfortunatley in this case...first impressions are long lasting.

Not so said the frog.

Just look at people's first 5DM2 clips...walking through there homes, down the street. Look at people comparing it to their EX1 with 35mm adapter.

All good and some great. There are some bad 5DM2 clips, especially the Moire pattern often attributed to scanning 1 in 3 rows.

By comparison there are few GH1 shoots that immediately, and unedited, really grab you other than the way a 35mm adapter grabs you. The shots are often pleasing, they are very low noise. However, the specular highlights are always muted. The blacks are nearly always crushed. Both of those issues maybe be tunable with parameters; however no one with a camera has posted settings that fix the problem.

In a few months there may be a combination of firmware and settings that helps. However, this is still a nice camera and for many a good value for the money competing against high end consumer camcorders yet is their equivalent with 35mm adapter.

John Caballero
05-12-2009, 08:17 PM
Don't worry anybody, once it hits the rest of the world you are gonna begin to see some wonderful work done with the GH1. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Wait and see and remember my words: Top notch movie making. The potential is too big not to see it. It will outdo the 5d in no time.

DavidNJ
05-12-2009, 08:24 PM
Don't worry anybody, once it hits the rest of the world you are gonna begin to see some wonderful work done with the GH1. There is absolutely no doubt about it. Wait and see and remember my words: Top notch movie making. The potential is too big not to see it. It will outdo the 5d in no time.

I wonder how pixels taste...

Kholi
05-12-2009, 08:25 PM
Not so said the frog.

Just look at people's first 5DM2 clips...walking through there homes, down the street. Look at people comparing it to their EX1 with 35mm adapter.

Same for the GH-1. In fact, I specifically said "EX-1 with larger sensor and INterchangeable lenses"



All good and some great. There are some bad 5DM2 clips, especially the Moire pattern often attributed to scanning 1 in 3 rows.If they aren't ALL good then that's all that matters. if EVERY clip was good then we could say something. This is irrelevant.



By comparison there are few GH1 shoots that immediately, and unedited, really grab you other than the way a 35mm adapter grabs you. The shots are often pleasing, they are very low noise. However, the specular highlights are always muted. The blacks are nearly always crushed. Both of those issues maybe be tunable with parameters; however no one with a camera has posted settings that fix the problem. There are a FEW GH-1's even being used and shown. Versus HOW many MKii's?

And why would we post settings? Nobody around here has one yet but Philip, Hunter and I.

Another irrelevant comment.




In a few months there may be a combination of firmware and settings that helps. However, this is still a nice camera and for many a good value for the money competing against high end consumer camcorders yet is their equivalent with 35mm adapter.The only thing the GH-1 needs to close the gap between it and the MKii would be 1080/24 MJPEG.

Everything else is negligible.

And for once John actually is right. Bet your ass that you're gonna see a GH-1 feature faster than you think.

DavidNJ
05-12-2009, 08:54 PM
Same for the GH-1. In fact, I specifically said "EX-1 with larger sensor and INterchangeable lenses"

If they aren't ALL good then that's all that matters. if EVERY clip was good then we could say something. This is irrelevant.

There are a FEW GH-1's even being used and shown. Versus HOW many MKii's?

And why would we post settings? Nobody around here has one yet but Philip, Hunter and I.

Another irrelevant comment.


The only thing the GH-1 needs to close the gap between it and the MKii would be 1080/24 MJPEG.

Everything else is negligible.

And for once John actually is right. Bet your ass that you're gonna see a GH-1 feature faster than you think.


Are you saying I overestimate Hunter's, Phillip's, and your skill?

Sure, people will shoot a feature with it. Not the issue.

MJPEG is an awful compression scheme. Very high bandwidth can mask a little. It is way inferior to H.264. Really, the 45Mb/s H.264, half the compression of the GH1 (with approximately the same compression algorithm) is probably 90% of the advantage; maybe 99%. The EX1's 35Mb/s MPEG2 shouldn't be that much different than the GH1; however I imagine you will see lots of EX1s connected to nanoFlash XDRs and KiPros in the next few months with images (if they set the detail down, awful edge sharpening) that do knock your socks off.

I'd love to know how Panasonic engineers arrived at 16Mb/s; they spent so much money on video auto focus and some other features what was the issue that caused them to specify the low speed?

You can fix the crushed blacks and specular highlightsin post...you shouldn't have to. I'd still like to see minimum noise reduction settings which may help a few things. Because it seems to be both a knee and a black stretch, if iExposure fixes one it may make the other worse. It would have been nice to see some more tests of different settings.

Isaac_Brody
05-12-2009, 09:09 PM
David, until you have a camera in your hands kindly chill with the big assumptions parading as fact.

In a few weeks you can plunk down 1500 bucks and pixelpeep all you want.

DavidNJ
05-12-2009, 09:36 PM
In the world, you can evaluate many things based on the work with others. I'm not a professional tester, and whether I 'plunk down' $1500 for this camera will depend on what the competition does. The K-7 is announced next week. The firmware update for the 5DM2 is rumored all over the place. A new Sony is speculated about. Olympus and Samsung has shown 'concepts'.

I was one of the first people speculating that this would be a great camera. No motivation to knock it down. My observations are based on easily discernible facts (e.g., the crushed blacks show in any histogram and numerous people have posted adjusted images and clips).

Imaging resources talked about the compression. There are lots of people (Convergent Design, AJA, Cineform, Apple, Panasonic) who all seem to think bandwidth is important.

Fortunately the incremental differences in cameras is small compared to overall production issues (script, acting, directing, editing, sound) and only a part of the DP picture (others including lighting and light management).

You are being very argumentative for a moderator.

John Caballero
05-12-2009, 09:56 PM
If you don't liki you don't buyi! It is as simple as that. You can waste your time arguing against it and absolutely nobody will pay much attention, if any, to you. If anybody wants to try it and buy it they will, is that simple. Thanks God we have freedom of choice. And thanks to we don't have to pay any attention to nonsense.

squig
05-12-2009, 10:08 PM
is it warm in here

I'm doing pre-production for my feature now. Can't guarantee it will be shot on the GH1, I change DSLR's more often than I change underwear.

David's right the codec is pretty crappy but a crappy codec hasn't stopped anyone going to theatrical release before. The bottom line is this is the best toy camera on the block, I sold a D90 to get one and if I had a 5DMKII I'd sell that too. With full manual control, decent lenses and filters, good camera work and lighting the codec isn't a big drama......unlike this place at times.

Isaac_Brody
05-12-2009, 10:15 PM
The economic downturn may have forced them to cut some corners as launch approached, which may account for some of the possibly firmware fixable items.

In the end a good camera, certainly competitive at its price point and because of the better glass possibly a good choice for some types of work. A talking head in a documentary or corporate video doesn't move much. 720p60 can be used on the shop/store floor.

Just...we were hoping...I was hoping...this would be everything it could be.

This statement is your opinon and it's also spreading FUD. For those on the fence it doesn't help them at all in their purchase decision.

David, it's obvious you aren't going to buy this camera, but everyone here is also well aware of the limitations of this camera because of the time put in by Kholi, Hunter, and Bloom. It would be great if the compression were 24 and not 17, but it isn't. People will work around that limitation.

This camera is capable of very good footage, much more than merely talking head or corporate video that doesn't move. You're entitled to your opinion, but if you continue to present it as fact and to post it in people's threads it gets into thread crapping territory.

DavidNJ
05-12-2009, 10:18 PM
is it warm in here

Mid-spring 60s-70s in NY



I'm doing pre-production for my feature now. Can't guarantee it will be shot on the GH1, I change DSLR's more often than I change underwear.

You may want to change your laundry habits :)


David's right the codec is pretty crappy but a crappy codec hasn't stopped anyone going to theatrical release before. The bottom line is this is the best toy camera on the block, I sold a D90 to get one and if I had a 5DMKII I'd sell that too. With full manual control, decent lenses and filters, good camera work and lighting the codec isn't a big drama......unlike this place at times.

The key...especially the clause "With... filters, good camera work and lighting"

SonicStates
05-12-2009, 10:46 PM
I'm doing pre-production for my feature now. Can't guarantee it will be shot on the GH1, I change DSLR's more often than I change underwear.



Looking forward to it.

Planning a short in the next couple of months... as long as all my ducks are in a row (and by 'ducks' I mean writer and talent)...going to be on a GH1 and HVX...I hope it will be something enjoyable to watch given my relative inexperience (not to be confused with ineptitude) in film...but creatively this will certainly not be my first outing and I think the GH1 will be the right choice for me. It's all about choices from what is in front of us now...time to work around the limitations and see what we can squeeze out of THIS unit. Although the footage I have thrown up here in DVXUser has been testing stuff only the signs are good for the potential of this camera as another tool in the chest.

I'm getting fired up to go shoot something. Cheers everyone!!!
Sam.

Kholi
05-12-2009, 11:18 PM
Looking forward to it.

I'm getting fired up to go shoot something. Cheers everyone!!!
Sam.

Man, you know what? The size of this camera, even with my largest lens, glass, my handheld rig, just makes me want to shoot ALL the time.

The sucker really lights a fire under your ass to get up and just go shoot SOMETHING. Be it flowers, a brick wall or something more. I don't leave homebase without it in my hands.

The next thing I'm getting is either a shoulder case or a nice Photographers bookbag.

Can you believe that? A PHOTOGRAPHERS bookbag for my entire camera kit.

I can't wait to go hiking with this thing. Drop it into a pool with autofocus on. Do some mounted bike riding. Action car shots and for sure--

Steal an entire scene on a plane in flight.

Lovin' it.

ChipG
05-12-2009, 11:29 PM
Steal an entire scene on a plane in flight.

Lovin' it.

I was joking around the other night with someone who works at Paramount and told him people will be going on your tours stealing scenes for thier movies with this cam, he laughed then thought about it and said holly shi*.

Sign up for a Paramont studio tour, bring your friends and shoot your short on thier studio lot. He he he

I'm going to hell for the advise but Kholi I want you to be the first one to do it!

Zak Forsman
05-12-2009, 11:32 PM
I was joking around the other night with someone who works at Paramount and told him people will be going on your tours stealing scenes for thier movies with this cam, he laughed then thought about it and said holly shi*.

Sign up for a Paramont studio tour, bring your friends and shoot your short on thier studio lot. He he he

I'm going to hell for the advise but Kholi I want you to be the first one to do it!

I shot a scene with a D90 on New Year's Eve at Universal City. cast of thousands. If I'd had a conventional looking camera, security would have shut me down quick. We have a shoot scheduled at LAX soon too. Shhhh.

ChipG
05-12-2009, 11:33 PM
Love it!

Thats what this cam is all about! The content you will be able to get is so much more important than the compression or codec.

ChipG
05-12-2009, 11:38 PM
We have a shoot scheduled at LAX soon too. Shhhh.

No more having to pay your friends $50 to dress up like Osama Bin Laden and run through the airport screeming Jihad!

saaby
05-12-2009, 11:47 PM
Can you believe that? A PHOTOGRAPHERS bookbag for my entire camera kit.


Yeah. That's what I keep thinking. Again, and again, and again. Also, $1500 isn't exactly pocket change (Not for me, I'm a student!) --- but I'd venture to say there are risks you'd be willing to take with a $1500 camera that you just might not take otherwise.



We have a shoot scheduled at LAX soon too. Shhhh.


Guerilla filmmaking at it's finest. Loving it.

Kholi
05-12-2009, 11:54 PM
1500.00? LOL

My [first] GH-1 kit as far exceeded the 1500.00 Mark.

It's been worth it, though. Especially after today.

PappasArts
05-12-2009, 11:57 PM
1500.00? LOL

It's been worth it, though. Especially after today.


Kholi,

What happen today?




.

Kholi
05-13-2009, 12:01 AM
I shot a small narrative scene with the GH-1, Contax Lenses and the Kit lens. Ran sound to the H4N for the first time. It was quick and dirty, but a great test.

It's being graded (a serious grade) right now, chopped, and sync'd.

I got to see a test grade, really quickly, output to AppleTV on a 50" Samsung 1080 LCD and couldn't have been anymore satisfied with what I saw.

squig
05-13-2009, 12:02 AM
Kholi, dakine sequence or burton zoom backpacks

nuff said

chaos
05-13-2009, 12:26 AM
Kholi,

I understand that you use Contax Lenses and I love the look they give on the gh1. Do you think that you could have shot your thrifty store film on the stock lens and still got a similar aesthetically pleasing look? Or even the small narrative scene you mentioned?

Sorry, if this has already been asked.

Thanks man.

SonicStates
05-13-2009, 01:20 AM
I shot a small narrative scene with the GH-1, Contax Lenses and the Kit lens. Ran sound to the H4N for the first time. It was quick and dirty, but a great test.

It's being graded (a serious grade) right now, chopped, and sync'd.

I got to see a test grade, really quickly, output to AppleTV on a 50" Samsung 1080 LCD and couldn't have been anymore satisfied with what I saw.

Badass!

PappasArts
05-13-2009, 02:07 AM
I shot a small narrative scene with the GH-1, Contax Lenses and the Kit lens. Ran sound to the H4N for the first time. It was quick and dirty, but a great test.

It's being graded (a serious grade) right now, chopped, and sync'd.

I got to see a test grade, really quickly, output to AppleTV on a 50" Samsung 1080 LCD and couldn't have been anymore satisfied with what I saw.


Awesome Kholi! The H4N too, how sweet......

Tracey Lee
05-13-2009, 07:59 AM
Kholi, I can't wait to see your shots. I have wanted to see how GH1 footage takes heavy grading from day one.

Jim Klatt
05-13-2009, 08:41 AM
Kholi,

I understand that you use Contax Lenses and I love the look they give on the gh1. Do you think that you could have shot your thrifty store film on the stock lens and still got a similar aesthetically pleasing look? Or even the small narrative scene you mentioned?

Sorry, if this has already been asked.

Thanks man.

Yeah, Zeiss lenses are very pricey. The 85 costs almost as much as the camera itself. I was wondering the same thing....

Kholi
05-13-2009, 09:00 AM
Kholi,

I understand that you use Contax Lenses and I love the look they give on the gh1. Do you think that you could have shot your thrifty store film on the stock lens and still got a similar aesthetically pleasing look? Or even the small narrative scene you mentioned?

Sorry, if this has already been asked.

Thanks man.

I can't say for sure. I like the Kit lens a lot. I've just been toying with the others since I have them at my disposal.

I'll try to do some work with the kit lens that's interesting, see what I get and post.

chaos
05-13-2009, 09:03 AM
I can't say for sure. I like the Kit lens a lot. I've just been toying with the others since I have them at my disposal.

I'll try to do some work with the kit lens that's interesting, see what I get and post.


awesome, thanks a lot.

John Caballero
05-13-2009, 09:37 AM
Check Philip Blooms blog and what he says about the stock lens.

TrueIndigo
05-13-2009, 11:26 AM
Kholi -- where did you get your Contax adapter? I've got a few Contax/Yashica MM lenses and I'd like to try them out. Is the adapter a one-piece or a two-piece adapter (MFT to FT, FT to Contax). Thanks.

Kholi
05-13-2009, 11:28 AM
Optimus Prime: ... Ebay.

You'll have to get a 4/3 to Micro 4/3 mount as well. Jinrong is the seller I believe. Order early, takes forever to arrive.

TrueIndigo
05-13-2009, 11:47 AM
So there's no one-piece MM adapter? I've looked around but couldn't find one, so I wondered what your's was. I'll have to get one this week to be here by the time the UK GH1 hits the shops.

Kholi
05-13-2009, 11:48 AM
Nah. The Micro 4/3 to 4/3 adapter is the first step. Whch is good for me, it'll help in the construction of my Letus Ultimate Hybrid PL mount.

TrueIndigo
05-13-2009, 12:05 PM
Wow, this PL mount thing is really taking off -- the GH1 costs about the same as a back cap for those lenses! But seriously, I love the enthusiasm attached to this camera...It feels like enabling technology. And I was going to get a DSLR this summer anyway. Nice.

Boz
05-13-2009, 12:34 PM
Anyone shot any serious "action" with this sucker yet? That's my biggest concern (as illustrated by the end of Kholi's "Thrifty" video). If I can get action that doesn't completely disintegrate and get a good 24P conversion, then I'm sold. It's the only thing holding me back at this point. Anyone care to do a few tests? :)

Ian-T
05-13-2009, 12:38 PM
Remember....Kholi is currently grading one as we type.

Kholi
05-13-2009, 12:46 PM
Correction! Not ME grading but someone else that's tons better than I am.. at most things in general. LoL

Real soon, no worries. Oh and it's not the action stuff. Got to shoot another small test with just actors, no crazy actions.

The Action stuff is this week, though. =D

Boz
05-13-2009, 12:51 PM
I'm looking forward to all of it. Thanks Kholi. :thumbup:

squig
05-13-2009, 01:54 PM
Correction! Not ME grading but someone else that's tons better than I am.. at most things in general. LoL

Real soon, no worries. Oh and it's not the action stuff. Got to shoot another small test with just actors, no crazy actions.

The Action stuff is this week, though. =D

yeah we know she kicks your arse

squig
05-13-2009, 02:03 PM
Anyone shot any serious "action" with this sucker yet? That's my biggest concern (as illustrated by the end of Kholi's "Thrifty" video). If I can get action that doesn't completely disintegrate and get a good 24P conversion, then I'm sold. It's the only thing holding me back at this point. Anyone care to do a few tests? :)

the mjpeg should hold up ok. And from what I'm seeing the compression makes it look more filmic like the D90 but cleaner. The AVCHD looks more digital. see for yourselves-
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/DMCGH1/DMCGH1A.HTM#vids

c'mon panasonic 24p mjpeg with 20% more data per frame, it's not a big ask

Boz
05-13-2009, 03:52 PM
c'mon panasonic 24p mjpeg with 20% more data per frame, it's not a big ask

I agree... but will Panny listen (or care?).

squig
05-13-2009, 04:07 PM
they have in the past

Boz
05-13-2009, 06:18 PM
For prosumer cams yes, but the GH1 by Panasonic's definition is a 'consumer cam' - so who knows if they'll do anything. It's frustrating because I'm micron away from buying the cam if I could get some sort of word on this issue one way or another.

squig
05-13-2009, 07:01 PM
For prosumer cams yes, but the GH1 by Panasonic's definition is a 'consumer cam' - so who knows if they'll do anything. It's frustrating because I'm micron away from buying the cam if I could get some sort of word on this issue one way or another.

well there were a couple of cam's (can't remember models) out a few years ago one was consumer the other prosumer different codec and body color from memory so a GH1PRO is not an impossibility. I think the imaging division has caught the pro video division with their pants down

Nighthawk
05-13-2009, 11:52 PM
Kholi, earlier in your posts you had concerns about wide shots. How wide is too wide as far as lenses go before you start noticing the problems you experienced?

Sorry if this has been asked but this forum's been a bear to keep up with.

timbook2
05-14-2009, 12:54 AM
Love it!

Thats what this cam is all about! The content you will be able to get is so much more important than the compression or codec.

yup thats my thought as well. Only problem is audio....the footage will be ok but audio still needs some thoughts. To get the same good quality audio as the video quality, it becomes a bit more complicated.
Maybe we should have an extra audio thread and discuss the options there ?

ydgmdlu
05-14-2009, 01:13 AM
yup thats my thought as well. Only problem is audio....the footage will be ok but audio still needs some thoughts. To get the same good quality audio as the video quality, it becomes a bit more complicated.
Maybe we should have an extra audio thread and discuss the options there ?
I wish that people would stop making a big deal out of this. If you're serious about videography and filmmaking, then why do you consider a single-system set-up to be so important, rather than using double-system? The point of any camera is to capture moving images. Not great sound. Use an external recorder if you want the best sound to complement your awesome footage. Few situations demand single-system over double-system. And if you really need to record sound on the camera, then there are workarounds that have already been mentioned that will get you the control and monitoring that you need.

Martti Ekstrand
05-14-2009, 01:19 AM
Maybe we should have an extra audio thread and discuss the options there ?

You mean like this one?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=169872

ChipG
05-14-2009, 01:34 AM
yup thats my thought as well. Only problem is audio....the footage will be ok but audio still needs some thoughts. To get the same good quality audio as the video quality, it becomes a bit more complicated.
Maybe we should have an extra audio thread and discuss the options there ?

Where have you been? There is one.

Kholi
05-14-2009, 08:39 AM
Kholi, earlier in your posts you had concerns about wide shots. How wide is too wide as far as lenses go before you start noticing the problems you experienced?

Sorry if this has been asked but this forum's been a bear to keep up with.

I've since gotten over my fear of wides with the camera. Using a Hoya Duto helps and, as well, the TOkina 11-16/2.8 seems to lessen the aliasing on wides.

I also cant' really see it on a large screen sitting several feet away.

Just part of the system and it has to be accepted, otherwise I'll just rip my eyes out. lol

John Caballero
05-14-2009, 08:55 AM
Kholi, there are two settings that deal with nature shooting, do they do anything in terms of improving the foliage image? It seems that the more you learn about it the better the shooting is getting.

Nighthawk
05-14-2009, 09:11 AM
yup thats my thought as well. Only problem is audio....the footage will be ok but audio still needs some thoughts. To get the same good quality audio as the video quality, it becomes a bit more complicated.
Maybe we should have an extra audio thread and discuss the options there ?


You mean like this one?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=169872

I think what timbook2 means is a thread titled "Audio". The thread you mention is full of great info but the title is a little misleading in that it makes it seem like it's just about the H4n. For those of us planning to shoot double system a full blown audio thread would be welcome unless, of course, I missed another thread already underway.

TrueIndigo
05-14-2009, 11:27 AM
Kholi -- what's your opinion of the GH1's highlight handling?

Kholi
05-14-2009, 11:30 AM
Excellent to me. Check the video (Thrift Store). I purposely shot toward blown out windows to see how it would perform. I think given the circumstances it's pretty good with handling highs and mids.

ChipG
05-14-2009, 12:28 PM
I think what timbook2 means is a thread titled "Audio". The thread you mention is full of great info but the title is a little misleading in that it makes it seem like it's just about the H4n. For those of us planning to shoot double system a full blown audio thread would be welcome unless, of course, I missed another thread already underway.

Here is the link the the thread titled GH1 Audio

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=169746

Nighthawk
05-14-2009, 01:41 PM
My bad. Was looking under 'Hardware, Lenses' section.

salvo
05-14-2009, 01:45 PM
What ever happened to the much anticipated Kholi short?

Isaac_Brody
05-14-2009, 02:03 PM
It's being graded. Coming soon.

Boz
05-14-2009, 04:33 PM
Hey Kholi, did you say you already shot your action short, or was that coming up? If so, what's the plan? Shoot all 60P then convert to 24P? Just curious.

Kholi
05-14-2009, 05:03 PM
shooting the action test tomorrow... Night. >=D

Plan is to shoot 720 60 for majority and 1080 24 for inserts, expressions, establishing shots.

Zoom h4n on a boom for audio

Mix on a 720/23.98 timeline.

PaPa
05-14-2009, 05:43 PM
Sick. Very excited to see the results.

Dingos8mybaby
05-14-2009, 06:04 PM
Zoom h4n on a boom for audio

No other mics? Is the on-board mic really that good? I thought for sure the sound would only be good for sync/ambience purposes. Not that I didn't think it would be an awesome little indie-friendly recorder... but man, colour me pleasantly surprised! :D

mico
05-14-2009, 06:08 PM
Zoom has xlr input maybe he meant he's using the zoom with a separate mic on a boom.

Dingos8mybaby
05-14-2009, 06:15 PM
Zoom has xlr input maybe he meant he's using the zoom with a separate mic on a boom.

That would make more sense... but maybe he does mean the H4n's mic. I like the sound of Zoomboom.

Btw, happy shooting Kholi. :)

Boz
05-14-2009, 07:37 PM
shooting the action test tomorrow... Night. >=D

Plan is to shoot 720 60 for majority and 1080 24 for inserts, expressions, establishing shots.

Zoom h4n on a boom for audio

Mix on a 720/23.98 timeline.

Sounds good. So just drop the 60P on to 23.98 timeline (no conversion)? I'm curious to see how that comes out. That will tell me a lot about whether this camera will be a viable option for me. I'm looking forward to seeing it. :)

Kholi
05-14-2009, 07:51 PM
No other mics? Is the on-board mic really that good? I thought for sure the sound would only be good for sync/ambience purposes. Not that I didn't think it would be an awesome little indie-friendly recorder... but man, colour me pleasantly surprised! :D

It's just action. A Zoom H4N with on-board mics activated, boom connected via XLR. Might try to grab a splitter tomorrow during the day so I can run it into Left and Right channel.. Then the onboard camera audio which is great or syncing, ambient and light location.

The H4N rocks extremely hard, man.

Kholi
05-14-2009, 07:57 PM
Sounds good. So just drop the 60P on to 23.98 timeline (no conversion)? I'm curious to see how that comes out. That will tell me a lot about whether this camera will be a viable option for me. I'm looking forward to seeing it. :)

Did it already with the rehearsal footage and it looked great for me. Just needed the rest of the production (sound, lighting, costumes, etc) to fill in.

But I'll post up as soon as I chop.

Mr. Japetto
05-15-2009, 05:30 AM
Hey Kholi, when you've got some spare time, can you please give us some iExposure tests?
With/Without etc. how it responds to motion, (Pans from light to dark) it looks interesting,
but I'd like to know if it's useful, or crappy like an auto aperture where the lighting fluctuates
& renders useless to us. :beer:

anthonybsd
05-15-2009, 09:22 AM
Sold all my essential Canon gear: check.
Sold all my non-manual Canon lenses: check.
Bought missing micro 4/3rds lens adapters: check.
Bought a few funky FD lenses: check.

Ready to roll whenever J&R starts shipping :)

TrueIndigo
05-15-2009, 10:47 AM
I got a bit confused by the different video modes: I thought the mjpeg option for the PAL camera would be 25 fps, but in fact it's 30 fps (same as for the NTSC camera) -- correct?

With the AVCHD 1920 x 1080p25 (within 50i) format, the max datarate is 17 mbps (the usual datarate can be around 10 Mbps).

There is also the AVCHD 1280 x 720p25 (within 50i) which has the same max datarate of 17 Mbps. Since the same datarate only has to make a smaller image, does this mean the quality of the picture could be better than with the 1080 version?

mico
05-15-2009, 11:11 AM
Has anyone seen 1080 24p footage from this cam marked at 17Mps. Every clip I've watched , my software shows nothing near 17MPs in 1080, its always much lower.

Is panasonic limiting the bitrate in 1080 on purpose or since this is VBR then its just the footage I've been using which hasn't used all the bandwidth.

Would love to hear if someone has seen 17Mbs in their editor. The other site someone has mentioned this may be an fixable problem by Panasonic .

Dingos8mybaby
05-15-2009, 12:03 PM
It's just action. A Zoom H4N with on-board mics activated, boom connected via XLR. Might try to grab a splitter tomorrow during the day so I can run it into Left and Right channel.. Then the onboard camera audio which is great or syncing, ambient and light location.

The H4N rocks extremely hard, man.


Thanks for clarification. :beer:

squig
05-15-2009, 04:25 PM
I got a bit confused by the different video modes: I thought the mjpeg option for the PAL camera would be 25 fps, but in fact it's 30 fps (same as for the NTSC camera) -- correct?

With the AVCHD 1920 x 1080p25 (within 50i) format, the max datarate is 17 mbps (the usual datarate can be around 10 Mbps).

There is also the AVCHD 1280 x 720p25 (within 50i) which has the same max datarate of 17 Mbps. Since the same datarate only has to make a smaller image, does this mean the quality of the picture could be better than with the 1080 version?

yep, yep and yep. But who knows if they are gonna update the firmware before it ships, panasonic appear to have delayed the release by a few weeks.

Kholi mentioned that the bit-rate did appear to be lower in 1080i.

Kholi
05-15-2009, 05:00 PM
Set Wisdom: Blood is the most time consuming effort EVER. It's also the messiest. It's certainly not guerrilla friendly, either.

Ugh.

squig
05-15-2009, 05:05 PM
just can't help yourself can you

Dingos8mybaby
05-15-2009, 05:57 PM
Set Wisdom: Blood is the most time consuming effort EVER. It's also the messiest. It's certainly not guerrilla friendly, either.

Ugh.

Just set the scene in the shower. No mess, instant clean up. Plus, you add market value (read: T & A). :grin:

squig
05-15-2009, 06:00 PM
been done before

I'd like to see you fit 2 dudes with swords in a shower

Rakesh Jacob
05-15-2009, 06:09 PM
Just set the scene in the shower. No mess, instant clean up. Plus, you add market value (read: T & A). :grin:

MMMM I love me some market value :Drogar-Love(DBG):

Rakesh Jacob
05-15-2009, 06:10 PM
been done before

I'd like to see you fit 2 dudes with swords in a shower

I suspected as much, but hey whatever floats your boat...

squig
05-15-2009, 06:14 PM
hehe......I bet everyone is suspect to you johnny

PappasArts
05-15-2009, 06:16 PM
been done before

I'd like to see you fit 2 dudes with swords in a shower



Wow, you didn't just write that.... You might need to have a talk with your girlfriend, or some special time..... :-P

Of course, maybe your just having a " Hard " day...........

LMAO...

squig
05-15-2009, 06:18 PM
hey it's you guys that are visualizing them naked....not my fantasy

Dingos8mybaby
05-15-2009, 06:18 PM
been done before

I'd like to see you fit 2 dudes with swords in a shower

"Dude!...Did we just cross swords?"

hahaha

PappasArts
05-15-2009, 06:20 PM
Just set the scene in the shower. No mess, instant clean up. Plus, you add market value (read: T & A). :grin:



Works for the porn industry too.................


:-{}

squig
05-15-2009, 06:26 PM
Kholi when ur done cleaning up, you don't find the hoya duto is too soft shooting talent do ya or are you just using it for scenic shots? I'm just afraid it's gonna look like daytime TV

I just got the tiffen film look kit, I'm gonna try it out today before I send the D90 to it's new home.

squig
05-15-2009, 06:34 PM
"Dude!...Did we just cross swords?"

hahaha

duh I get it now, not as common an expression down here. big sword crossing scandal going on down here at the moment. (in AUS not my place!)

Kholi
05-16-2009, 10:47 AM
Didn't use the Duto last night. I think it'll only be fore wides to help with aliasing.

I really, truly want a 1080/24P without pulldown from this camera. Not MJPEG, but AVC-HD @ 17mbps. A Fixed bitrate.

I would PAY for that update.

Illya Friedman
05-16-2009, 12:08 PM
been done before

I'd like to see you fit 2 dudes with swords in a shower

Eastern Promises - one big knife, in a shower, the most cringe-worthy fight scene I've ever seen.

I.

Illya Friedman
Hot Rod Cameras

squig
05-16-2009, 06:51 PM
Didn't use the Duto last night. I think it'll only be fore wides to help with aliasing.

I really, truly want a 1080/24P without pulldown from this camera. Not MJPEG, but AVC-HD @ 17mbps. A Fixed bitrate.

I would PAY for that update.

cheap canon camcorders can do 24Mbps so it's not a big ask for the GH1 which costs twice as much. Does something like the shot of the dude flipping off the tree break up much in 720p?

Kholi
05-16-2009, 06:57 PM
cheap canon camcorders can do 24Mbps so it's not a big ask for the GH1 which costs twice as much. Does something like the shot of the dude flipping off the tree break up much in 720p?


It takes more than that sort of scenario to break the 720/60. But the strange thing is that I did some 1080/24 Motion like that last night and for some reason I didn't see it get hit as much.

That's what made me decide that I really want a fixed bitrate and no pulldown.

On the most serious note, this camera is already on its way to being the new holy grail, I'll pay for the 1080/24 no pulldown and fixed bitrate in a heartbeat.

Boz
05-16-2009, 08:26 PM
On the most serious note, this camera is already on its way to being the new holy grail, I'll pay for the 1080/24 no pulldown and fixed bitrate in a heartbeat.

Does this mean you're ready to join the GH1 firmware upgrade campaign? :thumbsup:

SonicStates
05-16-2009, 09:36 PM
I really, truly want a 1080/24P without pulldown from this camera. Not MJPEG, but AVC-HD @ 17mbps. A Fixed bitrate.

I would PAY for that update.

X2

On another note, Kholi are you happy with the image on your LCD?...I'm getting kind of a brown shadowing on the trailing edges of objects on movement. Can be reduced when in standard film mode but it's eating at me a little. Tried it on another GH-1 and same deal. Of course it's more of an aesthetic thing but just seeing what your thoughts are.

Kholi
05-16-2009, 10:22 PM
Sonic

Turn down sharpening and turn noise reduction off and down.

plasmasmp
05-16-2009, 10:48 PM
I would just be happy if the 2:3 pulldown could be completely removed. At this time, there is no easy way to remove the pulldown without interlacing artifacts. I was going to import this camera for shooting an infomercial in a few days, but unless there is a way to fix this in post soon

LizaWitz
05-17-2009, 06:41 PM
MJPEG is an awful compression scheme. Very high bandwidth can mask a little. It is way inferior to H.264.

I disagree with DavidNJ on a lot, but in these statements above, he's not giving opinion, but stating facts. Well, "awful" is an opinion, if he'd rephrased it as "far less efficient" it would be stone cold fact.


c'mon panasonic 24p mjpeg with 20% more data per frame, it's not a big ask

Because you want your images to look worse? MJPEG is significantly less efficient than H.264, more than %20. There's a reason they only use it on the lower bandwidth images.

Remember, visual bandwidth is resolution X fps. MJPEG is tapped out at 720@30fps.

If they had chosen to go with the scheme you're suggesting for 1080/24p instead of AVCHD, you'd really be complaining looking at the results (even at a %20 higher bitrate.)


In all my pixel peeping, shooting at 1080/24fps, with the correct shutter, will produce a very high image quality, and a very filmic look.

A film camera shooting such a scene will have motion blur. And yet film cameras are used in action shots.

Why is it, in the digital realm, shooting with the same frame rate and shutter, which produces motion blur, causes people to complain that "the codec's breaking down"?

I believe this is an assumption born out of an ignorance of how codecs work. 17Mbps is not comparable to HDV bitrates, they are different types of video. 17Mbps is not a "low" bitrate. Motion blur is not a failure of the codec, its the result of a relatively long exposure time.

It is, in fact, exactly what you want in action sequences, if you want a film like look.

The 43Mbps codec of the 5D mk II is just a sign of canon's incompetance, or disintrest in making the 5D a real video camera. I think people are confusing the results of its full frame sensor and extraordinarily high bitrate to compensate for lack of CPU horsepower, as some sort of ideal to shoot for. Excluding the differences in sensor, the GH1 is delivering better video post compression at 17Mbps than the Canon.

Kholi
05-17-2009, 06:54 PM
Kay, you're probably right about the MJPEG. Dunno what's what there myself, but I need to ask you, Liza...

Have you EVER actually SHOT action before????

Isaac_Brody
05-17-2009, 07:06 PM
The 43Mbps codec of the 5D mk II is just a sign of canon's incompetance, or disintrest in making the 5D a real video camera. I think people are confusing the results of its full frame sensor and extraordinarily high bitrate to compensate for lack of CPU horsepower, as some sort of ideal to shoot for. Excluding the differences in sensor, the GH1 is delivering better video post compression at 17Mbps than the Canon.

Oy, and yet another round of pixelpeeing and measurbating from a person not shooting with a camera.

After weeks of looking at footage I think most of us observe that the glaring weakness in the GH1 is its implementation of 17Mbps AVCHD compression. For all of Canon's incompetence the picture quality still looks better than anything I've seen from the GH1. Perhaps that will change when we actually get production units in our hands. I would pay extra money for Panasonic to choose Canon's brand of incompetence and use a 43Mbps codec.

Or better yet a firmware update to at least match the avchd implementation used in the Canon HF10/11/S10 models. AVCHD can look great at 17Mbps, and Canon has proved that already. I hope the Panasonic photo division is working to improve the GH1 implementation because from what we've seen so far it's not matching Canon's.

LizaWitz
05-17-2009, 07:14 PM
With all due respect, I think you are very confused.

It's astounding how technology has been myhtologized to such an extent in the video community. It is in a way like a cargo cult religion. Tapes running at different speeds produced different quality of images, therefore, camera A at one bitrate *must* be better than camera B at a lower bitrate, even though the codecs are completely different... even when the images don't bear this out.

And of course, these perspectives get repeated over and over to the point where people who assume those giving them are experts assume they are facts. I've seen people say that the 1080 mode on the GH1 is absolutely unusable, citing Kholi's statements as "proof". Now, I've read Kholi's report, I know that's not what he said at all, and even on this forum I've seen him get frustrated at people misunderstanding what he's said. Think about that. Its a clear and present example of what I'm talking about.

Actually, this is all a quite fascinating from a sociological viewpoint. Like watching people on other forums buy Canon cameras because the dominant personalities on those forums (who have never used anything but Canon) constantly insist that they are the best. It doesn't matter how wrongheaded or ignorant their claims are, its the argument from false authority fallacy at work.

I guess this is the internet version of the discussions that used to happen in camera shops..... and a repetition of the early days of the PC industry when people who didn't understand technology were told by people whom they wrongly assumed did, that they should buy PCs instead of Macs.

The recent statements, including yours, that are more directly challenging of me personally, rather than the topic, I will simply accept as confirmation of my perspective, and an indication that attempting to argue my point is useless. You can't fight a myth that people have accepted.

Anyone who wishes to do the research can find the data about how MJPEG and H.264 encode video, why they do so the way they do, the relevance of the fact that they have to encode it in realtime on CPU performance, and the state of the art in technology, and assumptions about the future, present at the times that these standards were made.

squig
05-17-2009, 07:18 PM
the problem with variable bit-rate "consumer" codecs like AVCHD is they appear to be designed for efficiency. They don't appear to be very smart in allocating more data when it's required as you can see in a lot of the GH1 1080i footage turning to mush. mjpeg is far from perfect but at least it's constant bit-rate on the GH1 and handles movement better than the AVCHD. mjpeg looks very good if the bit-rate is high enough, it's not that efficient but do we care? 20% more data per frame makes a big difference see for yourself, go into photoshop with a 1280x720 raw image and compress it until it's 110kb. that's roughly what the GH1 is doing per frame. then try again with less compression. 240kb is hard to distinguish from the raw file. To my eyes mjpeg just looks less digital than AVCHD but admittedly I haven't personally shot anything with AVCHD.....yet.

squig
05-17-2009, 07:25 PM
here's a perfect example of the digitized look I mean http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/attachment.php?attachmentid=11066&d=1242608414 mjpeg doesn't exhibit that kind of blockiness, it's 'fuzzier' looking which makes it slightly more 'organic'.

disclaimer: kholi reckons these artifacts weren't produced in camera but I still stand by my comment that I believe mjpeg has a more 'organic' look.

Daniel L.
05-17-2009, 07:26 PM
It's astounding how technology has been myhologized to such an extent in the video community.

Well.. I deleted that post before you responded, I thought it was maybe a bit confrontational.

By compressing the RAW bayer to a video signal you are losing information to force it to a lower data rate. That's just how it works, it's impossible to have a 17Mbps signal without sacrificing something. So theoretically, the lower the data rate the less information the signal contains.

An example of a low datarate is a youtube video. An example of a high datarate is a blu-ray disk at 36Mbps. Would blu-ray look the same at 17Mbps, 10Mbps, 1Mbps? No. Certainly not.

At 17Mbps you are losing a lot more information than you would at 41Mbps. There is actually a lot more to it, but this is very simplified.

Even in practice, the Canon video quality is a lot higer especially at 1080p.

Isaac_Brody
05-17-2009, 07:34 PM
The recent statements, including yours, that are more directly challenging of me personally, rather than the topic, I will simply accept as confirmation of my perspective, and an indication that attempting to argue my point is useless. Even if I do have the facts right, and the counter is myth.

Seriously, calm down. Take a break and have a :beer:

There is no point in arguing because with no camera in your hands and no side by side comparison with a 5DII it's all just conjecture. All of this pointless measurebating could be settled in five minutes with a side by side shootout.

And even then it won't even solve anything because there are two types of users. Those who love to talk about tech and love to make long debates about why this camera is better than that camera, and then there are those who are filmmakers who know what the limitations are and find a way to work around them despite the loud typing of forum keyboard debates.

Seriously, everyone waiting for a camera have a :beer: and wait some more...

squig
05-17-2009, 07:36 PM
Oy, and yet another round of pixelpeeing and measurbating from a person not shooting with a camera.
.

I hate being a spectator, it's all Kholi and hunters fault!

LizaWitz
05-17-2009, 07:40 PM
That's just how it works, it's impossible to have a 17Mbps signal without sacrificing something. So theoretically, the lower the data rate the less information the signal contains.

Inherent in your statement above is the assumption that all codecs are the same. As I said originally, if the camera shot uncompressed, that would be great, and the images would look better.

But the quality of the image is not determined by bitrate. For instance, many people have assumed that if they would just boost the bitrate to 24Mbps, that would make a big difference. It may not. It may be that this is not the gating factor in the pipeline from sensor to datafile on the SDHC card.

Further, my objection is to people perceiving bitrates as a determinant of the quality of the image.

HDV at 20Mbps is going to look much worse than AVCHD at 20Mbps, as will MJPEG at 20Mbps. They all have the same bitrate, but the video results are different.


At 17Mbps you are losing a lot more information than you would at 41Mbps. There is actually a lot more to it, but this is very simplified.

Yeah, I'm trying to explain the "more too it" but it seems that I'm coming up against the "very simplified" perspective that ignores all the "more to it."


Even in practice, the Canon video quality is a lot higer especially at 1080p.

The assumption that this is due to the bitrate of the two datastreams is an error. If I accepted your perception that the video quality was better, bitrate is only one factor of many.

The problem is, people just assume that its all about bitrate, because, it seems that they don't recognize the differences in codecs, and even what can be done with the same codec given different amounts of CPU horsepower.

Daniel L.
05-17-2009, 07:52 PM
We are not talking about HDV. Yes, you are absolutely correct in that the quality of the image is not only determined by the bitrate, especially not with different codecs. I did say that I was trying to simplify it as best as I could.

However, both the cameras are using the same codec. The difference is the implementation in the Canon camera is more complete.

This is silly.. If I respond we will go on forever.

Ok, you win. lets just leave it at that before Isaac_Brody has to separate us. :)

Edit..
Just wanted to say that if I offended you I apologize.

squig
05-17-2009, 07:53 PM
I think it's a no-brainer that quality will improve with a higher bit-rate for any codec until you reach a sweet spot. sure there are other factors but it's unlikely they can be altered in a firmware update.

I don't think anybody is stating that different codecs look alike at the same bit-rate.

LizaWitz
05-17-2009, 07:54 PM
disclaimer: kholi reckons these artifacts weren't produced in camera but I still stand by my comment that I believe mjpeg has a more 'organic' look.

An aesthetic argument for MJPEG I won't argue with. If you like it better, great. Maybe if they produced a mode that shot MJPEG at 40-60 MBps, it would be some sort of ideal that you and I both appreciated more than the AVCHD footage they are recording. I'm certainly open to that possibility.

I think Kholi's right on that image though. If images like that are common, there's something wrong, and I'm pretty sure the problem is in the firmware, not in the technological choice of 17Mbps. I've seen more challenging footage at 17Mbps that had no such problems.... so I don't know what's happening in that frame.


Seriously, calm down. Take a break and have a :beer:

Wait, earlier you said:
"Oy, and yet another round of pixelpeeing and measurbating from a person not shooting with a camera. "

There are two problems with this statement. First, it completely misses the point of what I'm actually saying, and second, its derogatory towards me. Neither statement is appreciated.


There is no point in arguing because with no camera in your hands and no side by side comparison with a 5DII it's all just conjecture.

I'm not arguing the 5D vs. the GH1. I'm pointing out that relative codec efficiency, along with the entire imaging pipeline have significant impacts on video quality.


All of this pointless measurebating could be settled in five minutes with a side by side shootout.

No, it wouldn't because any such results would not respond to my point. BTW, "Measurebating" just seems to me to be a way to reject technical arguments without recognizing their validity.

At any rate, there are more differences between the image pipelines between the GH1 and the 5D than just the bitrate of their codecs. In fact, the very point I'm making is that such a side by side comparison is pointless because bitrate is not the sole determinant of image quality.

squig
05-17-2009, 07:56 PM
star wars episode 10 the codec wars.

one day we'll all be shooting raw....I just hope it doesn't come in different flavors!

squig
05-17-2009, 08:00 PM
camcorder info reviewed the canon camcorders that did 17Mbps and the newer models that do 24Mbps. They mentioned a big improvement in fast motion. maybe not all due to the higher bit-rate but it couldn't hurt.

LizaWitz
05-17-2009, 08:05 PM
-

However, both the cameras are using the same codec. The difference is the implementation in the Canon camera is more complete.

No, they are both using the same format for video, they are not using the same codec, unless there's some cross licensing agreement between panasonic and canon to which I am not aware.

Further, this video standard allows for quite a variety of encoding methods when taking raw video and extracting the relevant features.

The process involves looking at each frame and deciding what in frame B is the same object that appears in frame A. If there's a tree in frame A and it also appears in frame B (a highly likely situation) then the image for the tree can be encoded in frame A and simply duplicated in frame B with minimal adjustments to position, etc. It works on a smaller feature size than a "whole tree", but that example makes it easy to visualize.

There are dozens of methods of doing this search, and you can go forward and backward many frames in doing this search. The more efficient searches and feature extraction algorithms require more CPU horsepower to do in realtime. Also with more CPU horespower you can adjust the size of the features you look for-- looking, say, for thing that are 1/10th the area of a frame as well as 1/5th and 1/20th.

But with less CPU horsepower, you have to pick an average feature size and only search for that size. Further you likely will only be able to use one method of feature extraction and will not be able to look as deeply at the image to detect feature changes and movement. This means that your video quality is more likely to degrade in some situations where a more flexible codec would be able to adapt to a different average feature size in a given shooting situation. (All other things being equal.)

Finally, if you don't have much CPU horsepower-- and the 5DmkII uses a CPU that canon has been putting in its still cameras for many years-- cameras that don't shoot video-- you can compensate for this whole situation by simply encoding more of the image in each frame, at a greatly increased bitrate, but a commensurate decrease in the efficiency of the codec.

Or put another way, the codec is flexible enough that you can slide your adjustments from highly compressing the video to lightly compressing the video and making it closer to "RAW" video. If those sliders are more towards RAW the bitrate at which you get video quality of some given standard (We'll call it "great looking video") is much, much higher than the bitrate at which you will get that same quality video with the sliders set to be more efficient, and enough horsepower to pull it off.

So, while I was pointing out that you cannot compare bitrates across cameras with different codecs, and even across cameras with the same codec, I need to also point out that claiming that the Canon and the Panasonic have "the same codec" and assuming that this is the same efficiency, simply because they record to the same format, is also in error. Its a perfectly reasonable error to make because this stuff is never explained in much detail outside (as far as I've seen) forums for software developers implementing video codecs, which is where I learned about it.

Previous codecs, like HDV and MJPEG were much more rigid, as they were doing not that much compression and had relatively fixed requirements in terms of resources necessary to do compression in realtime. This also made them have a shorter effective lifespan and less flexible for scaling to more platforms.

H.264 works on Blueray players with a large amount of CPU horsepower down to cheap cellphones with very limited horsepower. It is a more flexible codec and it is much more configurable, based on how much horsepower you have....and when you're limited in horsepower you can trade of bitrate and resolution with image quality.

Thus the claim that Canon's implementation is "more complete" is exactly backwards. They have the high bitrate to compensate for less ability to do feature extraction in the codec due to the fairly old and slow CPU in that camera.

PS- No, you didn't offend me, I just commented on my perspective based on what would cause you to say what you did. And of course, you're not the only one to make comments along those lines... just picked yours cause yours was the last one at the time I made that post. My only goal is to illuminate the technology so that there's greater general understanding.

PPS-- It may be that the only gating factor in the GH1 from giving whatever your standard for "great looking video" is the bitrate of the codec and bumping it up to 24Mbps would solve that-- but it may also mean that doing so requires a new camera with new sililcon. The standard for "great looking video" is going to change based on shooting situation, of course.

Also, one reason the 5D can record video at the bitrate it does is that it has a compact flash card format, which is a parallel format and much faster than the serial interface of SDHC. There are a lot of issues that determine what card format a camera supports, and theoretical as well as practical issues about recording video to such cards at a given bitrate. + Having

squig
05-17-2009, 08:06 PM
If the guy hacking the 5D manages to give it manual controls I'd be tempted to pass on the GH1 for the higher bit-rate and dynamic range. I can live with the jello. 24p can be done in post.

Daniel L.
05-17-2009, 08:32 PM
Oh no! I love to debate but I am really leaving this one... Some of what you are saying is true..

By incomplete, I was talking about the implementation in the GH1 missing b-frames and the data rate necessary to maintain the image on a rapid pan, train, etc especially at 1080p. But lets just take this as my personal opinion. I just figure that if it had no trouble it would be a complete implementation of the video function.


Finally, if you don't have much CPU horsepower-- and the 5DmkII uses a CPU that canon has been putting in its still cameras for many years--

That's not true. The 5D Mark II uses the Digic IV which is not the same and much faster than the earlier processors. Based on specifications no doubt much faster than the processor in the GH1. Of course that's my bit of speculation to the mix since nobody really publishes specs.

IMO the 5D has no place in this discussion, way off topic. They are two different cameras with two different budgets in mind. This is a great discussion for another topic. The GH1 is a good camera, obviously capable of impressive video. I have already recommended it to close friends.

Rakesh Jacob
05-17-2009, 08:40 PM
Wait, earlier you said:
"Oy, and yet another round of pixelpeeing and measurbating from a person not shooting with a camera. "
BTW, "Measurebating" just seems to me to be a way to reject technical arguments without recognizing their validity.


I'm starting to think Isaac is a Measurbacist!!! Damn neo-con, anti-intellectual filmmaking movement LOL

squig
05-17-2009, 08:57 PM
I'm starting to think Isaac is a Measurbacist!!! Damn neo-con, anti-intellectual filmmaking movement LOL

see I was right you are paranoid!

must be all that good hash

SonicStates
05-18-2009, 12:42 AM
Sonic

Turn down sharpening and turn noise reduction off and down.

Thanks man. It seems it only rears its ugly head in lower light for me in any case.
This thread is heating up.

PappasArts
05-18-2009, 03:53 AM
If the guy hacking the 5D manages to give it manual controls I'd be tempted to pass on the GH1 for the higher bit-rate and dynamic range. I can live with the jello. 24p can be done in post.


I agree, and that's why I'm on the fence. Both are good camera's, however the 5D produces astonishing imagery for the price..

dcloud
05-18-2009, 05:44 AM
I do agree with lisa about its not the bitrate but the cpu power.(albeit i have no degree regarding these things)

canon consumer cams produces good quality image despite being 17mbps. It has a better processor for avchd.

a video can have a bigger bitrate but it still wont look great if the cpu cant encode the codec properly.

Boz
05-18-2009, 11:03 AM
All "measurebating" aside, I'm pretty much convinced that I'm going to cancel my GH1 preorder for now and see what (if anything) Panasonic fixes on GH1. I use the word 'fix' deliberately, because IMO the codec implementation for the GH1 is currently broken. Too many compromises at this point. Which is heartbreaking because this camera is SOOO close to being the perfect camera for me. C'mon Panasonic, step up to the plate and do the right thing!

John Caballero
05-18-2009, 11:23 AM
This camera is going to produce great quality material, everybody wait and see. All the cristicism aside, from a pro perspective, is easy to tell the potential. Once it gets wide distribution you are going to see an of explosion of great stuff. I just left $600.00 dep. at Adorama and I can't wait until I get the call to go get it. It is going to be an exciting summer of shooting.

AdrianF
05-18-2009, 02:23 PM
It is going to be an exciting summer of shooting.
Or a dull summer of measurebating between the camera user groups!
The problem is with a lot of the footage that's been analysed, is it's been scrutinised and put under the microscope, without knowing how it was shot or what settings were used. Obviously there are some issues with the image under certain conditions and I don't know if this is a problem that Panasonic are aware of and could be preparing to correct before release outside Japan. It's just speculation.
The only thing that isn't speculation is that this camera is going to be capable of shooting beyond it's right, judging by what I've seen posted on this forum.

Isaac_Brody
05-18-2009, 02:28 PM
I was surprised just how much a difference pulldown can make in viewing the footage. There's footage that I thought was terrible and it turned out to be improper pulldown removal that was skewing what I was seeing. Even the worse stuff out there when run through a proper pulldown doesn't look as bad as people think.

I've seen some of Kholis' action footage and it looks fantastic. I am picking this camera up. I shoot very controlled even when outside and from what I saw of Kholi's stuff my style of shooting will gel very well with this camera. Just wish it were available sooner.

AdrianF
05-18-2009, 02:51 PM
I was surprised just how much a difference pulldown can make in viewing the footage. There's footage that I thought was terrible and it turned out to be improper pulldown removal that was skewing what I was seeing. Even the worse stuff out there when run through a proper pulldown doesn't look as bad as people think.
I just saw your workflow thread, I'm sure this is the key, treating the footage correctly before output to the NLE or having an NLE that correctly interprets the footage. I've tried this with Blender with limited success on a Mac, though I think that it might be a solution for Windows, Linux users. Handbrake also looks like a way of doing a sort of tele cine out to edit codec codec of choice.

Nighthawk
05-18-2009, 03:54 PM
I was surprised just how much a difference pulldown can make in viewing the footage. There's footage that I thought was terrible and it turned out to be improper pulldown removal that was skewing what I was seeing. Even the worse stuff out there when run through a proper pulldown doesn't look as bad as people think.

I too saw your workflow thread and if it proves to be the answer I can't think of an easier or cheaper solution to some of the issues some of the footage has. Thanks for that. Can't wait to see the results.

Kholi
05-18-2009, 04:02 PM
I'm going to try to run my stuff through the Apple Intermediate and cut that way.

Just repairing my Desktop so it's takin' a second.

PappasArts
05-18-2009, 04:12 PM
I was surprised just how much a difference pulldown can make in viewing the footage. There's footage that I thought was terrible and it turned out to be improper pulldown removal that was skewing what I was seeing. Even the worse stuff out there when run through a proper pulldown doesn't look as bad as people think.

I've seen some of Kholis' action footage and it looks fantastic. I am picking this camera up. I shoot very controlled even when outside and from what I saw of Kholi's stuff my style of shooting will gel very well with this camera. Just wish it were available sooner.

How do we know were getting proper pull down?

If the artifacts in footage are more attributable to improper pull down methods, this changes a lot for many who are worried.

That, said, is there something about the GH1 footage that has a unique pull down requirement then other 24 in 60i recordings from other cameras?

Kholi
05-18-2009, 04:16 PM
If Isaac's method gets rid of the residue that I normally see then this is a great discovery.

I want to see some frame comparisons myself, but can't do them now because my computer isn't up and running.

Isaac_Brody
05-18-2009, 04:17 PM
It's working well for me so far, I've been running it on all the footage I can find. I did pulldown on the watch impress footage of the girl and did a quick color grade on it. You can see it here. It's downrezzed to 720 but it really looks great at 1080.

http://www.vimeo.com/4717531

Isaac_Brody
05-18-2009, 04:23 PM
How do we know were getting proper pull down?

You shouldn't be seeing that interlace residue. When you scrub frame by frame it should be gone, and if it's there you have some interlacing leftover. I was seeing that residue with prores. I have no idea why prores was doing that by it's gone when I ingest with the intermediate codec.

My next step will be to import in final cut using the intermediate codec instead of prores and JES. Perhaps it's just a prores issue, I'm hoping it is. That residue plus the compression was not a pretty combo, but seeing just the compression from camera and not prores or other pulldown artifacting looked much better.

sidereal
05-18-2009, 04:41 PM
I have no idea why prores was doing that by it's gone when I ingest with the intermediate codec. Perhaps it's just a prores issue, I'm hoping it is. That residue plus the compression was not a pretty combo, but seeing just the compression from camera and not prores or other pulldown artifacting looked much better.

Yep! AVCHD is a relative new video format, that's why much of NLE software are just starting to catch up with it.



http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/images/statusicon/user_online.gif http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/buttons/report.gif (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/report.php?p=1640722) http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/misc/progress.gif

Rakesh Jacob
05-18-2009, 07:19 PM
see I was right you are paranoid!

must be all that good hash

LOL, half right
No drugs here, just good old fashioned schizo/paranoid/delusional disorders :dankk2:

Park Edwards
05-18-2009, 08:35 PM
what's wrong with cineform as an intermediate codec? i can't see how it's losing any quality and it's by far the easiest program to remove pulldown.

Isaac_Brody
05-18-2009, 08:38 PM
Nothing's wrong with cineform, but I don't have it and no one else has posted a workflow for it. If it works perfectly then add it to the options. I'm not about to spend $129 when I don't have a camera in front of me. In a month when it's available I'll pick up neoscene and try it out.

John Caballero
05-18-2009, 08:42 PM
Isaac, if the final destination of footage is television, does the pulldown from the GH1 1080p have to be removed for editing or can it be edited with the pulldown intact and rendered? Sorry if I sound too ignorant but I am still trying to figure a few things out. Thanks.

Isaac_Brody
05-18-2009, 08:56 PM
You can keep the pulldown intact and just edit in a 60i/29.97 environment to screen on television. The thing I'm not certain about is if a dvd player would flag the pulldown frames to play your material at 23.976.

Those of you with PS3's, does it play the 1080P footage and remove pulldown on the fly? I won't know the anwer to this until I have a camera to play with.

John Caballero
05-18-2009, 09:07 PM
Thanks.

Park Edwards
05-18-2009, 09:42 PM
Nothing's wrong with cineform, but I don't have it and no one else has posted a workflow for it. If it works perfectly then add it to the options. I'm not about to spend $129 when I don't have a camera in front of me. In a month when it's available I'll pick up neoscene and try it out.

i got the 7day trial with neo scene, and after playing with that and comparing it to the rest, I have to say nothing has beat it. it converts them on the fly. fly is an understatement. i'll definitely be dropping the $129.00 on it. I did see somewhere else selling it for $99.00 which was weird, but if it's legit, i'm not gonna pass it up.

squig
05-18-2009, 11:45 PM
before everyone drops the $$$ on cineform mac users have a read first-
http://techblog.cineform.com/?tag=neo-player
http://estore.cineform.com/technology/CineForm_Intermediate.htm

I'm hoping apple makes color quicktime compatible in the next FCS update, I really don't want to have to fork out more cash for AE.

I look forward to hearing what the early adopters think of cineforms 10bit wavelet compression compared to 8bit apple intermediate codec.

plasmasmp
05-19-2009, 02:07 AM
I've now used Neoscene, Procoder 3, AE CS4 and tried a myriad of plugins on the PC, but anytime there is motion in 1080i mode, the codec runs out of steam. It honestly looks like a 3mb codec in motion rather than a 17mb codec. There's almost no reason to even try removing the pulldown, because the footage is unusable when there is any motion on the screen. Everything gets to be a big garbled mess

Ian-T
05-19-2009, 04:59 AM
I've now used Neoscene, Procoder 3, AE CS4 and tried a myriad of plugins on the PC, but anytime there is motion in 1080i mode, the codec runs out of steam. It honestly looks like a 3mb codec in motion rather than a 17mb codec. There's almost no reason to even try removing the pulldown, because the footage is unusable when there is any motion on the screen. Everything gets to be a big garbled messThat might true true in some cases but not all.

http://www.vimeo.com/4720871

PaPa
05-19-2009, 05:47 AM
That might true true in some cases but not all.

http://www.vimeo.com/4720871

Just checked out your video, and there is definitely something wrong with the pull down. Check the background of the boats, they strobe quite a bit.

Ian-T
05-19-2009, 05:56 AM
Yeah I noticed that. Thought it was just the computer but I checked it again here at work. It's funny because I couldn't tell with the girl walking in the beginning.

But anyways I thought the 24p in these cases looked good.

sidereal
05-19-2009, 06:02 AM
Just checked out your video, and there is definitely something wrong with the pull down. Check the background of the boats, they strobe quite a bit.

What computer platform are you using... Mac or PC? And most importantly, which decoder?

For me, There's nothing wrong. The video is clean. And for the record I'm using Windows 7 native AVCHD decoder, which is very good at rendering this codec.

Ian-T
05-19-2009, 06:52 AM
Man...it's almost a sin on how Vimeo mucks up the footage. I suggest downloading it...it looks way clean with no noticible artifacts.

Kholi
05-19-2009, 09:39 AM
The actual vimeo does look completely different than what you download.

Isaac_Brody
05-19-2009, 06:54 PM
I tried Neoscene. Unfortunately it doesn't properly remove interlace residue. VoltaicHD + JES seems to be the only way that has worked without a hitch for me. I've got comparison stills between the two and just need to find a place to upload to share.

Boz
05-19-2009, 07:56 PM
I would love to see that comparison. Perhaps you should send an email to the Cineform people too?

John Caballero
05-19-2009, 08:04 PM
Man...it's almost a sin on how Vimeo mucks up the footage.

I clicked the WMV letters and it played directly to the media player and wow what a difference, clean and sweet. This camera is very good. Thanks Ian-T.

squig
05-19-2009, 08:36 PM
I tried Neoscene. Unfortunately it doesn't properly remove interlace residue. VoltaicHD + JES seems to be the only way that has worked without a hitch for me. I've got comparison stills between the two and just need to find a place to upload to share.

Have you had any luck outputting to prores without artifacts? Having to use AIC and grade my film in an 8bit palette is scary.

The panny fanboys aren't going to like what I'm about to say but this cam is becoming more of a headache than the D90 and I don't even have it yet.

Kholi
05-19-2009, 08:55 PM
The term: Fanboy is unecessary man. You're bouncing back and forth between forums spouting this and that over Pentax Ks and D90's, changing your mind in every other post, maybe you just need to take a moment and let things progress.

might be good for the actual writing stage of your film

Isaac_Brody
05-19-2009, 08:56 PM
Squig, I've had luck with Prores. My workflow is now ingest with VoltaicHD to AIC, and then remove pulldown with JES to prores. This works well.

I'm getting in touch with David at Cineform so hopefully he can figure this out. I'm hoping for a one click solution and not multiple generations.

squig
05-19-2009, 09:22 PM
Cool thx Isaac. Cineform sounds like a preferable codec to prores and I'm thinking I might just grade in photoshop or try colorista if apple don't get their act together with quicktime support for color.

relax Kholi I was just taking the piss man and it wasn't even directed at anyone in particular.

I get a bit restless when I'm cameraless and I hate relying on others to figure stuff out, I like to get my hands dirty.

timbook2
05-20-2009, 06:33 AM
http://www.videoguys.com have it for 99 but since its mac OSX version supposedly is not as good as the PC version I am waiting....

AdrianF
05-20-2009, 08:11 AM
My workflow is now ingest with VoltaicHD to AIC, and then remove pulldown with JES to prores. This works well.

I've now tried your method on a few clips and it works great. The good thing about this is you can ingest on some lower spec systems for logging etc. I tested this out on my old G4 mac mini, was a little slow obviously, but worked fine. outputs a clean image.


Man...it's almost a sin on how Vimeo mucks up the footage. I suggest downloading it...it looks way clean with no noticible artifacts.

Too true! The stuff you did with the train looked great. I also had go at grading the footage of the girl, using Blender and I think this gives pretty good results.
http://vimeo.com/4745647

Park Edwards
05-20-2009, 09:38 AM
I tried Neoscene. Unfortunately it doesn't properly remove interlace residue. VoltaicHD + JES seems to be the only way that has worked without a hitch for me. I've got comparison stills between the two and just need to find a place to upload to share.

what is this interlace residue? neoscene was the only thing on PC that i've tried that removed pulldown perfectly.

edit: is this just a mac issue?

Isaac_Brody
05-20-2009, 09:52 AM
on PC that i've tried that removed pulldown perfectly.

edit: is this just a mac issue?

Bingo, it's a mac issue. It works perfectly on the PC side. I'm talking to David at Cineform and he's fixing the mac bug.

Kholi
05-20-2009, 12:37 PM
Hell Yeah to Isaac_B for figuring this all out.

Looks like it's going to be either a Cineform workflow or an Apple LandT to AIS > Pulldown.

Great work!

David Newman
05-20-2009, 01:54 PM
I posted this for Isaac, but you might want to compare:

Neo Scene (PC) : http://www.miscdata.com/temp/WinNS-00000.png
VoltaicHD + JES : http://www.miscdata.com/temp/00000-VoltiacHD-AIC-to-JES_Prores.png

You can see that Neo Scene completely and cleanly removes the pulldown, whereas VoltaicHD + JES show the wrong chroma frame (see the wheel color shape through the guys head.) The bug in the Mac version of Neo Scene has the one of the field showing the frame chroma, luma is pulldown correctly -- I expect this to be an easy fix.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

Kholi
05-20-2009, 02:12 PM
I saw this as well. Incredible!!! I blew the image up to pixelpeep (aka measurebate, LoL) and I could CERTAINLY see some leftovers in the Voltaic... but the Cineform looks incredibly CLEAN.

Like what I'm seeing on my LCD through the PS3 clean.

Look above the guy's head as well, on the Voltaic you can see a little bit of interlace residue there, and at his back on the chair. In fact, it's all over the place.

With the Cineform NeoScene version it's ALL gone, all of those little bits of "compression" dust I kept seeing is cleaned up. This is going to make grading and manipulating the image that much more pleasant.

Let it be known those two stills originated from the GH-1 as well. Isaac's been working with some raw GH-1 footage I provided him to get this workflow figured out. paid off!

Very VERY friggin' exciting, David. This will be my definitive workflow for this camera, and it'll be awesome to offer clients the transcode so they won't have to do it.

Will be even better when the OS X version gets its update/fix, so then I can just live in OSX for all of my GH-1 needs.

A+, special thanks to Isaac for doing the hardwork and digging.

Isaac_Brody
05-20-2009, 02:38 PM
The bug in the Mac version of Neo Scene has the one of the field showing the frame chroma, luma is pulldown correctly -- I expect this to be an easy fix.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

That's great David. Once this is fixed this will be my workflow. One step transcoding is definitely the way to go. :beer:

Barry_Green
05-20-2009, 04:38 PM
Excellent work, David. Thanks for understanding the issue so thoroughly and properly re-interpreting the chroma out of the 4:2:0 interlaced scheme and restoring it. You did it the right way, well done.

Ian-T
05-20-2009, 05:03 PM
maybe you just need to take a moment and let things progress.

I think I need to take this same advice. Since grading that footage I've been won back over to the GH-1 camp. No looking back from here. I have to say that I am liking the 1080/24p more and more. I understand its limitations but that is something I'm willing to work around. After all...I've been dealing with an HV20 for the last couple of years..lol.

Ian-T
05-20-2009, 05:07 PM
Why is it that Panasonic, Sony, Canon or any of the other major players don't have a David Newman or a David Taylor frequenting these boards and responding to customer needs? It's stuff like this that makes life a lot easier...for everyone. I wish Cineform made cameras.

Boz
05-20-2009, 05:23 PM
Why is it that Panasonic, Sony, Canon or any of the other major players don't have a David Newman or a David Taylor frequenting these boards and responding to customer needs? It's stuff like this that makes life a lot easier...for everyone. I wish Cineform made cameras.

Ditto. More interface between manufacturer and customers is a GOOD thing.

SonicStates
05-20-2009, 08:11 PM
You can see that Neo Scene completely and cleanly removes the pulldown, whereas VoltaicHD + JES show the wrong chroma frame (see the wheel color shape through the guys head.) The bug in the Mac version of Neo Scene has the one of the field showing the frame chroma, luma is pulldown correctly -- I expect this to be an easy fix.

David Newman
CTO, CineForm

Very, very cool. Thanks a bunch. Really nice to see someone like yourself in here keeping your finger on the pulse. Awesome.

squig
05-20-2009, 08:16 PM
Why is it that Panasonic, Sony, Canon or any of the other major players don't have a David Newman or a David Taylor frequenting these boards and responding to customer needs? It's stuff like this that makes life a lot easier...for everyone. I wish Cineform made cameras.

cause if David doesn't satisfy his customers he doesn't eat.

Boz
05-20-2009, 08:23 PM
So, Kholi... when are we going to see some of your new footage? I'm especially dying to see the "action scene" you shot. I'm also looking forward something narrative as opposed to just a series of 'pretty' shots strung together.

dcloud
05-22-2009, 05:40 AM
to kholi:
hows the japanese language barrier holding up? Did you get used to it? would you recommend people getting the english version instead?

Kholi
05-22-2009, 01:41 PM
There are English Menus out now. if you're desperate you can work around it.

I'd rather wait until the US version (not UK) comes out because there's a SLIM change that it might be updated from the factory.

A slim chance, but a chance nonetheless.

Nighthawk
05-22-2009, 05:13 PM
Guys, I'm assuming you can tell I'm a new poster just trying to find his voice on this forum. I'm adjusting to protocol and my own shortcomings when compared to the vast knowledge a lot of you posses but I feel a rant coming on. I don't know the penalty for such a thing but I can take it and take it with dignity.

RANT:
What the hell is going on with the release of this camera? Retailers are scratching their heads, which only momentarily stops them from scratching other parts of their bodies, when asked "When?". Web re-salers are changing announcements and numbers constantly as if they worked on the NYSE. If the threads on this forum alone were printed out with all those interested in this camera it would dwarf 'War & Peace' but where is Panasonic in all this? I remember the days of the DVX where you couldn't get Jan Crittenden off this forum. There is too much on this forum for them not to pop in once in a while just to say 'hi' and let us know wassup. Call me a Panny fanboy, a fanny Panboy or just a raving psycho but I really need to know when this camera is coming. So Panny, pleeaase, tell me when or for God's sake I'll hunt you down, I'll hunt your family down and your mother, yes your mother, I'll do things. I don't know what but I'll do things(knowing me it'll probably be flowers but ugly flowers). And, Dear Panny, is actually seeing what we're shooting really too much to ask (it's for Kholi, a good guy).

End of Rant.

Thanks everybody and how's your day?

mico
05-22-2009, 05:21 PM
Guys, I'm assuming you can tell I'm a new poster just trying to find his voice on this forum. I'm adjusting to protocol and my own shortcomings when compared to the vast knowledge a lot of you posses but I feel a rant coming on. I don't know the penalty for such a thing but I can take it and take it with dignity.

RANT:
What the hell is going on with the release of this camera? Retailers are scratching their heads, which only momentarily stops them from scratching other parts of their bodies, when asked "When?". Web re-salers are changing announcements and numbers constantly as if they worked on the NYSE. If the threads on this forum alone were printed out with all those interested in this camera it would dwarf 'War & Peace' but where is Panasonic in all this? I remember the days of the DVX where you couldn't get Jan Crittenden off this forum. There is too much on this forum for them not to pop in once in a while just to say 'hi' and let us know wassup. Call me a Panny fanboy, a fanny Panboy or just a raving psycho but I really need to know when this camera is coming. So Panny, pleeaase, tell me when or for God's sake I'll hunt you down, I'll hunt your family down and your mother, yes your mother, I'll do things. I don't know what but I'll do things(knowing me it'll probably be flowers but ugly flowers). And, Dear Panny, is actually seeing what we're shooting really too much to ask (it's for Kholi, a good guy).

End of Rant.

Thanks everybody and how's your day?

You know I've seen films that just wasted my time and I moved on but having mistakenly read this stupid post made me want the minute it took me to read it back.

Nighthawk
05-22-2009, 05:23 PM
You know I've seen films that just wasted my time and I moved on but having mistakenly read this stupid post made me want the minute it took me to read it back.

I probably deserve that.

Rakesh Jacob
05-22-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm doing good....
You... feel... better?
Please don't hunt down my family, just incase I do something that offends you in the future, OK?

Nighthawk
05-22-2009, 05:31 PM
I'm doing good....
You... feel... better?
Please don't hunt down my family, just incase I do something that offends you in the future, OK?

Much better. No worries on the other stuff. Just steam, man. I planned a shoot with this and getting antsy.

Barry_Green
05-22-2009, 05:32 PM
I'm sorry -- I'll go get Jan to rush back here and reply to your post immediately, as I'm sure she has nothing better to do. She's only the product line manager for Panasonic Broadcast's most successful products, so surely she can come in and advise us on the availability of a camera from an entirely different company.

(and yes, panasonic consumer is a different company than panasonic broadcast).

[/sarcasm]

Rakesh Jacob
05-22-2009, 05:34 PM
Much better. No worries on the other stuff. Just steam, man. I planned a shoot with this and getting antsy.

Yeah me too, I have 2 shorts I'm waiting to do. I might just get a 5D MkII for the first one, my wife's gonna be soooo pissed by the time I have both cams LOL

Barry_Green
05-22-2009, 05:35 PM
Much better. No worries on the other stuff. Just steam, man. I planned a shoot with this and getting antsy.
No worries, it's all good. But as a word of advice, never ever ever make plans around an unreleased product. If you'd planned a shoot around the Scarlet, you'd be hosed, right? Same thing here. The HVX200 was supposed to debut in 2005, and it did, by three days. But it was about four months before they were shipping in quantity.

The GH1 looks like it's going to be sold out everywhere, at least in the initial allocations. If you're not pretty high up on someone's pre-order list, don't expect to get one any time soon. If you do, consider yourself lucky.

Nighthawk
05-22-2009, 05:37 PM
I'm sorry -- I'll go get Jan to rush back here and reply to your post immediately, as I'm sure she has nothing better to do. She's only the product line manager for Panasonic Broadcast's most successful products, so surely she can come in and advise us on the availability of a camera from an entirely different company.

(and yes, panasonic consumer is a different company than panasonic broadcast).

[/sarcasm]

Barry, I knew that. I was pointing out how diligent she was and how somebody like that would be helpful from the still camera department just to keep us up to speed like she did.

Obviously my last rant for awhile. (No sarcasm)

Barry_Green
05-22-2009, 05:40 PM
Okay, no worries. We've just had a rash of people demanding her to answer them, and I'm sensitive to that.

Yes, it's obvious we need someone from the still department. If they had any clue how massively popular this thing looks to be, they'd be well served to have someone working with us and at least monitoring our requests. I've been trying to get them to bring it into the broadcast division so they can make our wanted upgrades, but -- nobody's talking. They're listening, but they're not talking, so no idea whether anything will happen or not.

Nighthawk
05-22-2009, 05:41 PM
No worries, it's all good. But as a word of advice, never ever ever make plans around an unreleased product. If you'd planned a shoot around the Scarlet, you'd be hosed, right? Same thing here. The HVX200 was supposed to debut in 2005, and it did, by three days. But it was about four months before they were shipping in quantity.

The GH1 looks like it's going to be sold out everywhere, at least in the initial allocations. If you're not pretty high up on someone's pre-order list, don't expect to get one any time soon. If you do, consider yourself lucky.

I knew it was a gamble to begin with but the dates , initially, seemed workable. Fairly high up on 2 pre-orders so my fingers are hugely crossed.

Barry_Green
05-22-2009, 05:45 PM
That's about all you can do now... I pre-ordered from the Panasonic site back when it said "shipping late May". Now it says "shipping June" so ... bah. Well, I'll know in the next ten days if it shipped in late May or not. :)

Kholi
05-22-2009, 05:47 PM
I dunno how much it'll help but I'm going to email blast a lot of the Still Division, and start making random calls. They can hate me all they want. But I'm going to show them just how important what they're creating is and try to get a response out of someone.

This Heineken thing will definitely be used as Fodder. I hope it helps.

Ian-T
05-22-2009, 06:04 PM
RANT:
What the hell is going on with the release of this camera? Retailers are scratching their heads, which only momentarily stops them from scratching other parts of their bodies, when asked "When?". Web re-salers are changing announcements and numbers constantly as if they worked on the NYSE. If the threads on this forum alone were printed out with all those interested in this camera it would dwarf 'War & Peace' but where is Panasonic in all this? I remember the days of the DVX where you couldn't get Jan Crittenden off this forum. There is too much on this forum for them not to pop in once in a while just to say 'hi' and let us know wassup. Call me a Panny fanboy, a fanny Panboy or just a raving psycho but I really need to know when this camera is coming. So Panny, pleeaase, tell me when or for God's sake I'll hunt you down, I'll hunt your family down and your mother, yes your mother, I'll do things. I don't know what but I'll do things(knowing me it'll probably be flowers but ugly flowers). And, Dear Panny, is actually seeing what we're shooting really too much to ask (it's for Kholi, a good guy).

End of Rant.

Thanks everybody and how's your day?This was actually quite funny. lol I mean...I personally would have chosen a few (maybe more) different words...but...I'm feelin ya.

Nighthawk
05-22-2009, 06:25 PM
This was actually quite funny. lol I mean...I personally would have chosen a few (maybe more) different words...but...I'm feelin ya.

Thanks for that but I think there's a couple of people going; "Oh, dude. Don't encourage this guy".

Barry_Green
05-22-2009, 06:37 PM
It's funny, yes, and well done. But there's nothing anyone can do about it, and the one thing I don't want to encourage is people demanding answers from folks, especially when those people won't have the answer. That's all. But I like the rant...

dcloud
05-22-2009, 09:41 PM
There are English Menus out now. if you're desperate you can work around it.

I'd rather wait until the US version (not UK) comes out because there's a SLIM change that it might be updated from the factory.

A slim chance, but a chance nonetheless.
really? there are english menus out? thats sounds great. Ive been looking at jap online stores and they're far cheaper than the 1500 price tag..
of course those are srp ... but i do get your point about changes...

squig
05-23-2009, 12:18 AM
The broadcast division have been caught with their pants down, it's no wonder they're not talking. A GH1PRO will be a good way to save face. 24p progressive 40Mbps H.264 or 60Mbps mjpeg and live output will do nicely thx......or else we'll send nighthawk to stalk you with flowers.