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asdfyoyoyo
05-05-2009, 08:27 AM
I've started a PETITION (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/gh1_full_potential/index.html) to request that Panasonic consider making changes to the following aspects of the DMC-GH1:

1. Increase the bitrate of the AVCHD codec to 24mpbs or higher.
2. Allow for HDMI-out during recording.

This isn't a "we demand x,y,z" petition. Instead, it is merely an attempt to make Panasonic aware of an opportunity to meet the specific needs and desires of the consumer. I plan on sending the results of this petition to the proper channel at Panasonic so that they can see the amount of user's interested in this device meeting it's full potential.

If you are interested in learning more about this petition, please CLICK HERE (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/gh1_full_potential/index.html), and sign the petition if you agree with it's suggestions.

The petition is ENTIRELY FREE, however a page may pop up asking for an optional donation. This is NOT REQUIRED, it is merely their way of allowing you to help keep their site running. You may choose to decline and it will NOT affect your signature or input.

Please be sure to consider writing in the "comment" section, as this is what will show up in the publicly viewable "signatures" page. I have chosen NOT to display anyone's names, so as to respect confidentiality. However, anyone who accesses the petition will be able to see to comments of other users.

I realize that some may find the idea of this petition silly, seeing as the product is not yet released in the United States. However, the idea here is to show Panasonic that there is a high level of interest in this camera having these options, and possibly even allow changes to be made before the product is released. I realize this is a long shot, but I suppose there is no harm in trying, and I thank you for your support.

Also, anyone who has ideas on how to improve the verbiage of the petition, or has any other suggestions, I will welcome them gladly. And please feel free to link to the petition wherever you think there might be interest.

If you feel so compelled, please add the following line to your signature... "Interested in the Panasonic GH1? Sign THIS PETITION (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/gh1_full_potential/index.html)to support 24mbps recording and HDMI-Out!"

Thanks for your time.

(mods: I am unfamiliar with all of the nuances of this forum. If this post is out of line, my apologies and let me know the steps to rectify the situation)

chameloon
05-05-2009, 08:37 AM
Good idea, but having Winston Churchill as a first signature may not give too much credibility, as a start.

asdfyoyoyo
05-05-2009, 08:40 AM
Thanks,

I will be scanning the petition for false/accidental entries. Perhaps I should also make the signature list unavailable to public view so that credibility is unhampered.

EDIT: Instead of names being listed in the signatures area, I will have comments listed. To keep confidentiality, I will not be publicly listing any names of those who sign. If you do NOT want your comment publicly visible, please PM me and I will get it sorted out. Thank you.

Finster
05-05-2009, 08:47 AM
Good idea, but having Winston Churchill as a first signature may not give too much credibility, as a start.

That's funny. :happy:

codeloss
05-05-2009, 09:07 AM
Okay, I signed.

There's a mistake in the text of the petition near the bottom - "24kbps" instead of mbps.

asdfyoyoyo
05-05-2009, 09:09 AM
Change made. (not sure how I goofed on that after writing mpbs every other time, oh well.)

Thank you.

LizaWitz
05-05-2009, 10:01 AM
24Mbps is the highest supported by AVCHD. We're not likely to get a non-AVCHD camera in this line in the near term-- unless some other standard supplants it.

There was an email from a panasonic rep who said that monitoring while shooting was possible on a "television"-- though its not clear if they were talking about HDMI or composite or component out.

That feature might be in there already...

asdfyoyoyo
05-05-2009, 10:02 AM
24Mbps is the highest supported by AVCHD. We're not likely to get a non-AVCHD camera in this line in the near term-- unless some other standard supplants it.

There was an email from a panasonic rep who said that monitoring while shooting was possible on a "television"-- though its not clear if they were talking about HDMI or composite or component out.

That feature might be in there already...


Thanks Liza,

I have changed the wording of the petition to reflect 24mbps as AVCHD's maximum rate.

"We request that the GH1's AVCHD bitrate be increased to the AVCHD codec's maximum of 24mpbs. This should help to reduce the appearances of macroblocking, aliasing (stair-stepping), and allow for resolution of finer detail in the DMC-GH1's video imaging. "

If HDMI monitoring is already included and we just don't know it yet, that would be a very pleasant development.

Any other suggestions are welcomed and appreciated.

Thanks for the information and the support!

sblfilms
05-05-2009, 10:18 AM
Honestly, if live HDMI output is made available...the GH1 will be the first camera that really suits all my needs. I can't believe I'm saying that...but it's the truth.

asdfyoyoyo
05-05-2009, 10:54 AM
We've already got 25+ signatures and some good input. Glad to see the support on this. I believe that if these features are implemented in the GH1, Panasonic will have a big hit with this camera.

Please be sure to inform/encourage anyone you might know that would be interested in this petition.

Thanks

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
05-05-2009, 11:45 AM
Note: Some folks will be reluctant to put their contact info on a web petition, period, no matter how strongly they feel about the issues it addresses. Just my $0.02 US.

Meanwhile:

I think the GH1 is almost perfect for high-end digital camera consumers and even for some pro photo & video applications, too. But I think the GH1 could "easily" be so much better. So, here's my list of features which should/could be added to the GH1 or be featured in some future "GH1B" or "GH2" model:

- Full-time live video output: Composite video would be acceptable, but only if the cam's recording quality is also increased (see below). HDMI video & audio out is preferable. If HDMI-out is implemented I'd "settle" for leaving the cam's built-in recording quality as-is because using an external device for high-quality HDMI recording would be an option. The GH1 is a video camcorder, and virtually every video camcorder ever made has had some form of full-time video out. There are many, many good reasons for this. Video-out is not a crutch. It's a _normal_ part of many (but not all) video productions. Among other things, many clients expect & are more than willing to _pay_ for full-time live video monitoring on-set, and many crew positions depend on it, too. Is it absolutely necessary in every production situation? No. But in many/most, yes.

- Allow audio auto-gain (AGC) to be disabled: It would be preferable if a GH1/B/2 user could adjust audio levels on the fly, but I'd "settle" for allowing switching the mic jack to line level input for use with an optional external mixer.

- Full-time live _audio_ out via the USB-to-RCA cable: Preferably this should be implemented along with the other items listed here, but it's really independent. The line level audio out could be used with an optional audio mixer, headphone amp or other equipment.

- Full-time headphone audio output: This is a no-brainer. Even most consumer users have earbud headphones! All pro users use them when recording "important" audio, right? Unfortunately, adding a headphone jack to the GH1 means modifying the cam's case design, but this should be relatively easy for Panasonic to do. All that being said, I could live without a headphone jack _if_ full-time live audio out was available via the GH1B/GH2's USB-to-RCA cable.

- Flash-band artifact workaround: Panasonic is offering this workaround as a firmware update for the HPX300. If something like this could be implemented in the GH1/B/2 I'd be willing to pay for it.

- 1080p24 recording quality improvement: I don't care how Panasonic improves the GH1/B/2's 1080p24 video recording quality -- they don't have to improve it all that much anyway -- as long as it's compatible with most popular NLE software & devices such as BluRay players. AVCHD, MJPEG, whatever, just give us somewhat better-looking 1080p24 and I'll withdraw my request for full-time live HDMI video out, but _not_ for full-time live composite video out for monitoring.

Most of the changes I've listed here would require little or no change to the GH1's form factor, case, or button layout. Most could likely be implemented as software/firmware changes or minor hardware changes. In other words, these changes might not cost Panasonic much to implement and may offer them a nice return on their investment.

IMHO these changes would greatly increase the value of the GH1 (or GH1B or GH2) for many professional video and digital cinema professionals.

Importantly, implementing these changes won't interfere with the GH1/B/2's primary mission in life: Selling as many cameras to as many "high end" digital camera consumers as possible. Many of the feature changes I've listed above will increase the cam's value to these consumers, too; e.g.: no one is going to complain if the camera works better for little or no increase in cost.

John Caballero
05-05-2009, 11:48 AM
The most important thing here is that we get involved in a positive way. Any effort to improve on the camera is welcome. Is up to the manufacturer to implement changes but is up to us to at least try to make a difference.


- 1080p24 recording quality improvement: I don't care how Panasonic improves the GH1/B/2's 1080p24 video recording quality

1080i24PA will help on this. That and allow the highest bit rate it can achieve, 24Mb/s, would make the camera a little better.

Nik Manning
05-05-2009, 03:13 PM
I hope this petition helps change the GH1 for the better. Good Luck!

kyrre
05-05-2009, 04:11 PM
Signed. But I really don't know how much good any of this will do.

Nighthawk
05-05-2009, 08:40 PM
Wishes, wants and all else asides this camera, with all it's lacking attributes and at it's price point, is so far ahead of anything I've dealt with in the past that I'd be happy to pay for an upgrade in a year or less just to have what it offers now. Is better coming? Of course, I'd be pissed if it weren't, but for now I'm excited by what it offers to do what I have no access to at the moment. If a petition helps bring me more I won't say 'no' but I'm willing to shrug if that don't happen.

Just a quick moment to thank Kholi for what I can only imagine is a cool but stressful experience. He really went to bat for all of us. Took hard questions on, dealt with Jap menus and is trying to live up to a standard we can only hope to emulate. He, and others like him, are why I've been, what's called, a lurker on this forum for years. I've learned a ton and I thank you all.

Hunter Hampton
05-05-2009, 09:46 PM
I think the petition is a good idea- if we looked at the history of G1 updates, panasonic made a lot of improvements to image quality. Now I understand that the live hdmi may be a hardware issue, but bumping up the compression to 24mbps or at least optimizing it in some way is a fair request. Not that Im expecting any of it to be granted. And I certainly wont be upset if none of it makes it into this camera, it is what it is. (and its a pretty good camera for the price tag). This at least helps let the "firmware people" know what some consumers are asking for.

Nektonic
05-05-2009, 10:09 PM
I would wager the easiest thing to fix with a firmware update would be to allow a 720 24p mode. This should be a good start as the word so far is that the 720 60p mode holds up better than 1080 24p.

Isaac_Brody
05-05-2009, 10:27 PM
Ok, been away for about eight hours and coming back to this. If you don't want to sign the petition, stay out of this thread. No more complaining.

John Caballero
05-06-2009, 06:25 AM
Ok, been away for about eight hours and coming back to this. If you don't want to sign the petition, stay out of this thread. No more complaining.

Thank you Mr. Brody. Is it possible to clean up the thread and leave the pertinent petition information in? Just a thought. I myself think that any positive input we can share and provide to Panasonic is very healthy. Is up to them to decide but at least we let ourselves be heard and work towards common goals that will benefit us at the end of the day.

asdfyoyoyo
05-06-2009, 06:50 AM
I am currently in the process of determining who, at Panasonic, it would be most effective to make aware of this petition.

Before I make a decision, I would like to ask other users if they have any suggestions or possibly any contacts that would be a good channel.

Looking forward to letting our suggestions be made known. Thanks for the support everyone.

ALSO,
If you feel so compelled, please add the following to your signature line...

Interested in the Panasonic GH1? Sign THIS PETITION (http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/gh1_full_potential/index.html)to support 24mbps recording and HDMI-Out!

Isaac_Brody
05-06-2009, 08:19 AM
Cleaned up.

John Caballero
05-06-2009, 09:01 AM
Thank you sir.

Isaac_Brody
05-06-2009, 10:12 AM
While there's no promises to the effectiveness of petitions it doesn't hurt to have feature requests in a thread. A couple years ago we had a huge wishlist for features we wanted to see in an upgraded HVX. A lot of the requests made it into the 200a/170.

The G1 has undergone numerous updates in the past year so there is at least some hope that Panasonic could tweak or fix any major bugs or compromises.

Peter J. DeCrescenzo
05-06-2009, 10:25 AM
I am currently in the process of determining who, at Panasonic, it would be most effective to make aware of this petition.

Before I make a decision, I would like to ask other users if they have any suggestions or possibly any contacts that would be a good channel. ...

Here's a possibility:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1628469&postcount=872

asdfyoyoyo
05-09-2009, 02:26 PM
Have been looking, but can't seem to find a way to contact Mr Kitao. Any suggestions more than welcome. :)

Isaac_Brody
05-09-2009, 02:33 PM
One addition to this petition, 24P in mjpeg mode.

dcloud
05-09-2009, 06:26 PM
720 24p in avchd?

Boz
05-09-2009, 07:34 PM
One addition to this petition, 24P in mjpeg mode.

I second that. If they can't give us a higher bitrate for 1080P, AT LEAST give us 720-24P!

EDIT: After much thought, I've removed my GH1 pre-order from Amazon until one of these two things are fixed. C'mon Panasonic! You can do it!

asdfyoyoyo
05-11-2009, 07:55 AM
I'm still striking out here. I've been SCOURING the internet for any kind of contact information for Panasonic. I was hoping to find some way to contact Ichiro Kitao, per the above suggestion, but I cannot find ANY way to get contact information for him, or even for some sort of low-level corporate contact that I could go through. Pretty much the only thing I've been able to find is product support numbers or techinical support hotlines which are unhelpful.

I'm gonna keep looking, but I'm pretty adept at internet searching and I'm coming up empty so far. Maybe I'll just have to call one of these tech numbers and ask to be transferred to corporate somehow?

Any help GREATLY appreciated. :)

divide
05-11-2009, 08:19 AM
You should create a LinkedIn account, add all your contacts, then you may be able ton contact people from Panasonic. LinkedIn really helped me for my current project, I could get in contact with developers from Sony and Grass Valley easily.

Martti Ekstrand
05-11-2009, 08:37 AM
Any help GREATLY appreciated.

I think all you have to do is to post reasonable suggestions in this forum. Barry Green, one of the forum's senior moderators has written several books about Panasonic cameras. I'm pretty certain he puts forward good ideas to Panasonic whenever he can.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1622078&postcount=335

If petitioning for mjpeg 24P I'd also like to see 25P for us PAL users. :)

asdfyoyoyo
05-11-2009, 09:01 AM
I remember seeing that post of Barry's.


I lobbied the Panasonic factory guys at NAB to release a version of the GH1 to the broadcast division. That would open up PH mode (720/24p, 1080/24pN, and 24mbps recording). They're listening, but I don't know whether they'll do it.

Barry, any word on if this kind of thing could actually materialize? If they could implement your suggestions above (maybe even more mjpeg options), plus HDMI-out, I'd be willing to pay 2 grand for the camera. If wonder if there's a way to nudge the Panasonic factory guys a little bit?

Barry_Green
05-11-2009, 09:10 AM
They have been nudged. Whether they choose to go forward is up to them, but the case was made quite clearly and was heard by the right guys.

asdfyoyoyo
05-11-2009, 09:15 AM
They have been nudged. Whether they choose to go forward is up to them, but the case was made quite clearly and was heard by the right guys.


Barry,

Understood. Thank you, sir.

sw247
05-15-2009, 04:01 AM
Totally behind you on this one, spotted a typo:

We request that Panasonic strongly consider the following changes which may possible (might possibly) be enabled through changes to firmware. (might instead of may reads a little better but possible is wrong. Hope that helps.

Pitrs
05-22-2009, 04:03 PM
Philip Bloom wrote: Now I spoke to the main man at Panasonic Lumix division about what I want to see in the camera. I said 24mbps. He said all Panasonic camcorders record at 17mbps due to something about dvd backup for consumers? I said then keep 17mbps and have an HQ mode for pro use of 24mpbs. He said OK and will look into it. Also asked for live HDMI out. We can hope but I doubt we will see it in the GH1, maybe the GH2…http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/05/21/eu-launch-of-gh1-and-new-gh1-short-joshua-tree/#more-3236

killacam
05-22-2009, 10:23 PM
Philip Bloom wrote: Now I spoke to the main man at Panasonic Lumix division about what I want to see in the camera. I said 24mbps. He said all Panasonic camcorders record at 17mbps due to something about dvd backup for consumers? I said then keep 17mbps and have an HQ mode for pro use of 24mpbs. He said OK and will look into it. Also asked for live HDMI out. We can hope but I doubt we will see it in the GH1, maybe the GH2

yeah I saw that- I'm guessing that by 'dvd backup' they mean for burning to a dvd to be played back on a blu-ray player? I don't think regular dvd players can play back avchd files, but I think blu-ray players will be able to play regular dvds that have high definition content burnt onto them. I don't see how they could be referring to dvd data discs when bitrate shouldn't be a factor there, since you're not trying to directly play the files on a player. for any kind of burning though, you could limit the bitrate in software. maybe they're referring to some strange scenario where a person plugs their sdhc card into a viera tv/blu-ray/dvd player and it records it directly onto a dvd that way?

anyway here's some somewhat relevant info on avchd that I thought was interesting- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD#Specifications
supposedly avchd only supports burning to dvds at 18 mbit/s but I'm not sure if that's just a holdover from when avchd was originally designed to be used with mini-dvd recording camcorders. also sony and panasonic originally designed their products to be mainly compatible with avchd main profile level 4.0 (which is 17 mbit/s) and not avchd high profile level 4.1 (which is 24 mbit/s). they have had to change that though with canon avchd camcorders like the hf11, hf s10/100 etc. using 24. I know vegas now supports high profile.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/avchd-format-discussion/133481-2-kinds-avchd.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD#Compatibility_between_brands

I understand they're trying to make it easier for the average consumer to view their videos on their tvs without going through a computer first but I'm not sure how many of those people are going to be using the dvd backup method they're talking about. unless they package some easy burning software where you don't have to transcode the files or recompress them at all or whatever. but those people who aren't going to edit (even in something like moviemaker or whatever) are probably just going to use hdmi or usb composite for playback. for 'archiving' you could just store it on your hard drive or burn it as a data dvd, which I don't think should have that same mbit/s limit? not sure about the whole burning to dvd details but I think that's right.

from what it sounds like though, it sounds like a firmware fix may be possible, unlike the hdmi live output which I think someone from panasonic said is due to processor limitations. they should still try to enable at least composite out though hopefully. anyway it does seem like it might be an issue of them trying to make it more "consumer-friendly" as opposed to any hardware issues with the bitrate. and someone should tell them that the hmc150 does 24 mbit/s when they say none of their other camcorders have that (another quote from a rep that talked to bloom).

John Caballero
05-22-2009, 10:36 PM
The camera does come with software for "regular joe shmoes" which most likely are going to shell out millions and millions of dollars for technology like this one, something I am sure Panasonic is well aware of. Thats why they are a pretty big company. The software that comes with the camera converts the AVCHD to mpeg2 and ready to burn. That is what Panasonic cares about at this time. They are not in business to create a $1500.00 camera that would kill their high level market if it came with all the bells and whistles. They care about the big picture in this segment not a few asking for more and more for a grand and a half.

Nighthawk
05-22-2009, 11:09 PM
They are not in business to create a $1500.00 camera that would kill their high level market if it came with all the bells and whistles. They care about the big picture in this segment not a few asking for more and more for a grand and a half.

This is so true and I myself am constantly falling into the trap you mention and not remembering who this product is actually aimed at. I do believe, however, that Panasonic definitely underestimated the attraction it would have to the video crowd.

killacam
05-22-2009, 11:09 PM
The camera does come with software for "regular joe shmoes" which most likely are going to shell out millions and millions of dollars for technology like this one, something I am sure Panasonic is well aware of. Thats why they are a pretty big company. The software that comes with the camera converts the AVCHD to mpeg2 and ready to burn. That is what Panasonic cares about at this time. They are not in business to create a $1500.00 camera that would kill their high level market if it came with all the bells and whistles. They care about the big picture in this segment not a few asking for more and more for a grand and a half.

if it converts it to mpeg2 can't they lower the bitrate then in software instead of in camera? and I probably should have used 'soccer moms' instead but meh whatever- soccer moms are more likely to either go for a regular dedicated camcorder or a lower end dslr if they're interested in photography. this seems to be more of a niche product.

and I'm not trying to complain for no reason but if it seems like a reasonable upgrade then I think it's worth asking for. these things could wind up being the difference between it being a success or failure. artificially handicapping a product either because they want to 'dumb it down' or protect a higher level market when it really wouldn't cost all that much to upgrade an important feature should bother potential customers. if there were a better reason that we don't know about (some hardware limitation for example) I'd be fine with it though. there probably is but I think most of us are interested in knowing what it is. consumer dvd archiving seems kind of odd.

John Caballero
05-22-2009, 11:20 PM
This camera basically follows the specs on the recording side of the new Panasonic HDC-TM300 and the other cameras on that line. They top at 17 mbit/s. Its actually a hybrid of those and the G1. What makes the difference between the TM300 and the GH1 is the sensor, a lot bigger at 4/3. And what makes the difference between the other VDSLRs and the GH1 is the manual controls. Panasonic took a big step with the GH1 but clearly on the safe side of the business. I see them more going full blown 4/3 on a HPX300 configuration at maybe upwards of 3K to compete with the Scarlet and 4K and higher on the Varicams, and others on the high price side of the market, to compete with the Red One when a big part of the theaters are ready to project at 4K. They have to shift the products and the market slowly and surely for them to stay in business and always have products that make sense at all levels of the price scale.

killacam
05-23-2009, 12:16 AM
This is so true and I myself am constantly falling into the trap you mention and not remembering who this product is actually aimed at. I do believe, however, that Panasonic definitely underestimated the attraction it would have to the video crowd.


I do know what you guys are talking about on one hand, but on the other $1500 really isn't that cheap and is more expensive than any other 'consumer' camcorder on the market by at least a few hundred and only about five hundred dollars cheaper than their 'prosumer' avccam hmc40. Its price also puts it at the high end of DSLRs making it more expensive than most there too. It is probably more borderline prosumer than consumer.

I do appreciate that they've put a lot of video features into the camera and it might be one of the most advanced VDSLRs yet. still, a couple of firmware updates would push it over the top imho. I don't think anyone's asking for major overhauls but just a few tweaks.

I'd also like to make clear what I was talking about with dvd and blu-ray. of course most of us are going to want to burn dvds or blu-ray at some point- I don't think 24 mbit/s would affect that. it would only affect transferring files directly to a dvd somehow (as in those mini-dvd recordable camcorders you used to see a few years ago). for normal burning to a dvd we would have to recompress the files anyhow but in editing (in whatever program) you would want them as uncompressed as possible.

Nighthawk
05-23-2009, 12:52 AM
I do know what you guys are talking about on one hand, but on the other $1500 really isn't that cheap and is more expensive than any other 'consumer' camcorder on the market by at least a few hundred and only about five hundred dollars cheaper than their 'prosumer' avccam hmc40. Its price also puts it at the high end of DSLRs making it more expensive than most there too. It is probably more borderline prosumer than consumer.

I do appreciate that they've put a lot of video features into the camera and it might be one of the most advanced VDSLRs yet. still, a couple of firmware updates would push it over the top imho. I don't think anyone's asking for major overhauls but just a few tweaks.


I understand your side of the argument as well. When the D90, 5D and, now, the GH1 came out us, who are into the video side of things, caught a brief glimpse of video Mecca. They all had pluses and minuses but they were close to what we valued in a camera that could do HD video. The problem being it wasn't meant for us. They all had short comings and we bitched and argued. The people interested in the 'still' side had their own concerns and probably bitched and argued too. As a price point issue I hear ya on it being a little high end for a still camera but that's nothing I know much about. On the video side of the coin I don't think there's one of us interested in this cam who wouldn't pay a bit more to have a few things fixed considering what a value this camera appears to be at the moment. Free updates? Sure, but i'd pay for some if need be but here's the real issue; the video side of this camera has the real potential to genuinely hurt the prosumer side of Panasonic if it was everything it could be. It was joked much earlier that Panny made a mistake in putting this out and maybe there's a little something to that. Because of this internal competition it may be a little while 'til these issues are resolved just to allow the prosumer side to catch up. Just a thought.

squig
05-23-2009, 01:14 AM
Barry mentioned the broadcast division is a separate entity but some years ago panasonic put out a camcorder in 2 flavors: broadcast black with pro codec and sixpack silver with less than pro codec so a GH1PRO wouldn't be that much of a stretch.

killacam
05-23-2009, 01:20 AM
I understand your side of the argument as well. When the D90, 5D and, now, the GH1 came out us, who are into the video side of things, caught a brief glimpse of video Mecca. They all had pluses and minuses but they were close to what we valued in a camera that could do HD video. The problem being it wasn't meant for us. They all had short comings and we bitched and argued. The people interested in the 'still' side had their own concerns and probably bitched and argued too. As a price point issue I hear ya on it being a little high end for a still camera but that's nothing I know much about. On the video side of the coin I don't think there's one of us interested in this cam who wouldn't pay a bit more to have a few things fixed considering what a value this camera appears to be at the moment. Free updates? Sure, but i'd pay for some if need be but here's the real issue; the video side of this camera has the real potential to genuinely hurt the prosumer side of Panasonic if it was everything it could be. It was joked much earlier that Panny made a mistake in putting this out and maybe there's a little something to that. Because of this internal competition it may be a little while 'til these issues are resolved just to allow the prosumer side to catch up. Just a thought.

yeah it is actually cheap compared to other prosumer camcorders (while still being expensive compared to consumer camcorders). it's actually kind of positioned in a grey area between the two (while its image or at least sensor surpasses a lot of top end prosumer camcorders its compression is very consumer). the thing is I don't even consider 24 mbit/s AVCHD to be prosumer- it's found in a lot of consumer camcorders nowadays. AVC-Intra would be the prosumer version. I am just hoping that we don't have to wind up paying a couple of thousand dollars extra just for 7 more mbit/s in a GH1Pro or wait a year for that slight upgrade in a GH2.

Barry_Green
05-23-2009, 08:19 AM
Barry mentioned the broadcast division is a separate entity but some years ago panasonic put out a camcorder in 2 flavors: broadcast black with pro codec and sixpack silver with less than pro codec so a GH1PRO wouldn't be that much of a stretch.
Not that long ago. The HSC1U was exactly that. So I'm lobbying heavily to get them to do it again. Fix a few things, charge more if you need to, but add PH mode (24mbps of 1080/24p Native recording, yeah baby!) and some live monitoring, and yeah, that's the ticket...

I know I've been heard. I don't know if they'll do it. I wouldn't wait (I ordered a GH1 already) but hey, if they do it, then that's what ebay's for -- sell the GH1 and upgrade to the GH1Pro or whatever.

Nighthawk
05-23-2009, 09:11 AM
Not that long ago. The HSC1U was exactly that. So I'm lobbying heavily to get them to do it again. Fix a few things, charge more if you need to, but add PH mode (24mbps of 1080/24p Native recording, yeah baby!) and some live monitoring, and yeah, that's the ticket...

I know I've been heard. I don't know if they'll do it. I wouldn't wait (I ordered a GH1 already) but hey, if they do it, then that's what ebay's for -- sell the GH1 and upgrade to the GH1Pro or whatever.

Exactly. Squig earlier posted his opinion that this cam is the brains to the lenses, equipment and rigs to make the best possible product we can at the moment. The Gh1 as it sits is just the stepping stone to the next level of 'brains' that will come our way(starting to sound like a zombie script) where we can maintain our investment in equipment etc. which is where the 'real' money lies and move up to the new cam when the time is to our advantage. Squig was spot on with that. I can live with the GH1's perceived limitations 'til there's a new kid on the block. (But I won't say 'no' to some firmware tweaks either)

John Caballero
05-23-2009, 09:19 AM
but add PH mode (24mbps of 1080/24p Native recording, yeah baby!) and some live monitoring, and yeah, that's the ticket...


That would be great. Those two little improvements would make the GH1 a greater camera than it is already. Is that all firmware possible? It could be I suppose. Thanks Barry for your input.

squig
05-23-2009, 12:24 PM
Not that long ago. The HSC1U was exactly that. So I'm lobbying heavily to get them to do it again. Fix a few things, charge more if you need to, but add PH mode (24mbps of 1080/24p Native recording, yeah baby!) and some live monitoring, and yeah, that's the ticket...

I know I've been heard. I don't know if they'll do it. I wouldn't wait (I ordered a GH1 already) but hey, if they do it, then that's what ebay's for -- sell the GH1 and upgrade to the GH1Pro or whatever.

24Mbps would be good but it really should come out of the box with the GH1 or in a free firmware update. If they're going to market a PRO model it should have a better codec. But I'll take whatever I can get thx for the "lobbying" Barry.

squig
05-23-2009, 12:32 PM
It won't be that easy to switch back to an APC or full frame sensor cam once you've started collecting exotic lenses for the GH1. I'm already getting 4 different lens mount adapters, probably more.

akaloith
05-26-2009, 04:31 AM
We also want this alising thing in 1920x1080 to be removed
And use of b frames so that videos have better quality at a given bitrate
Sony hx1 uses b frames and is great at a lower bitrate

John Caballero
05-26-2009, 09:41 PM
We have to keep the pressure on Panasonic as the Canon folk did with the 5D. They got the full manual control firmware they were pushing for. Panasonic has to upgrade the GH1 to the HDMI live output, 1080p24PN, 720p24 and higher Mbit/s. Are you listening Panasonic? Is your move. You can't let Canon beat you now. Respond to them and give the GH1 a lttle power boost!

dcloud
05-26-2009, 09:55 PM
HDMI live output, 1080p24PN, 720p24 and higher Mbit/s.

these are all plausible but i think the higher bitrate wont help.. they should have another different codec with high mbps

killacam
05-27-2009, 12:12 AM
yeah the canon firmware update is actually encouraging that maybe panasonic will follow their lead and fix a few of the issues with their camera as well. I'm beginning to wonder though if the lack of b-frames might be holding the codec back more than the bitrate. calculating b-frames is processor dependent though so the venus engine v might not be able to handle it. maximizing the bitrate would help regardless though- and it isn't processor dependent as far as I know. native 24p would be sweet as well, although possibly not as easy to play back directly to a tv (I'm assuming this is why they decided to put it in 60i but who knows).

puredrifting
05-27-2009, 11:40 AM
I don't believe that our petitioning got us the manual control on the 5D MKII. Tramm Hudson, his hack and high budget filmmakers and studios did.

It's funny that people are signing a petition for a camera that isn't even on sale yet in most of the world. ;-)

D

Kholi
05-27-2009, 11:42 AM
THe Firmware from CAnon popped into existence around January-February and it was NOT due to Hudson, Filmmakers or anything like that.

It was the fact that Canon users were turning to Nikon to solve their manual control issues. The Firmware Update was apparently slated for June all along, but I didn't believe who had told me.

I also didn't believe him about one other thing he told me... but now I'm wondering what'll happen with this as well, since he spouted an accurate time frame for the MKii firmware update.

Dunno why I didn't believe him, he was one of the first people to visit Canon when the MKii dropped and worked with Vincent directly.

This is not to undermine Hudson's efforts by any means, but to clear up the confusion that anything other than Canon's PR and Business Sense brought about a Firmware update for Manual Controls.

puredrifting
05-27-2009, 12:00 PM
Right, but do you believe that a petition actually cause Canon to come up with the update or was there truth that they were planning it all along when the camera was being developed, but they had to leave it out so they could release to battle the D90?

I have heard a lot of different stories and theories. I am in touch with Canon directly lately, perhaps I should glean some info directly from the horse's mouth?

Dan

Kholi
05-27-2009, 12:07 PM
No petition did it at all. It was Canon's choice to stop themselves from selling Nikon glass. LoL.

The D90 has no effect on the MKii, neither does the GH-1 on a consumer level. The MKii's stills blow both away and the price for the Mkii is unheard of for that kind of still performance. Video was just an extra tidbit until they realized the amount of Nikon glass that was being consumed.

Hindsight is 20/20.

Dan, if you talk to some Canon folks... ask them about their next update and how much it's going to cost. =D

John Caballero
05-27-2009, 12:24 PM
It is not about a petiton per se. It is about raising our voices and letting the manufacturers know about our concerns and needs. There are real people behind this big corporations not robots churning out cameras. These corporations got big by answering to the needs and wants of their market. Their marketing research efforts are huge. They usually do it quietly but effectively. They also pay attention to the buzz out there. They watch for movements one way or another in their sales patterns and inmediately research why. They also listen to the top movers and shakers of the industry to make slow but positive improvements if it is economically convinient for them. These movers and shakers read and gather info from forums like DVXUser to round up their views. Thats reality. On the other hand the people at Canon knew from day one what the video pros wanted from the video side of the Mark ll. Thats a no brainer. And you can tell by how easy the solution was. A simple firmware and VOILA!, manual controls. By holding back Canon just created a strategy that will sell many more cameras. Marketing genius!

puredrifting
05-27-2009, 01:06 PM
Definitely smart to do it on the eve of the GH1 introduction. I think in our little business, there is also the buzz factor that is very real. Look at how quickly the GH1 boards here went berserk. I am noticing how quickly the HVX/HPX/HMC boards have cooled down. It seems like (I could be wrong), that a large amount of this websites discussion is now on the 5D MKII and GH1 boards.

The 5D MKII is an amazing tool as is the GH1. Limited but amazing. RED must be alarmed to see so much of their potential Scarlet low end market evaporating before their eyes. They are going to have to up their game and actually introduce something quickly and ship it or they will miss the boat on the sub $10,000.00 customer. I sense that the steam has basically already leaked out of the 2/3" fixed lens Scarlet with announcements like the GH1 and this manual update for the 5D MKII.

We all win in this competitive environment.

Dan

Ian-T
05-27-2009, 01:34 PM
Red will make a little noise with the Scarlet...but not nearly as much as they could have if they stepped up a lot sooner. Why should the average joe consider Raw shooting anymore? I understand it's important to the indy filmakers but they were not the only ones Red was after to begin with. This upgrade should push them to offer at least the same type of options (in regards to inexpensive interchangeable lens with a Super 35 sensor and non-proprietery). At least give us a bigger sensor than 2/3s even on the low end fixed lens Scarlet I say. it does not have to be Super35 but give us something more (comparable) to work with.

Boz
05-27-2009, 01:53 PM
Just think, if Red had stuck with Scarlet 1.0 they would (in theory) be shipping about now.

killacam
05-27-2009, 03:00 PM
I think Red should consider coming out with a micro 4/3" Scarlet. There seems to be enough room between the $2500 2/3" Scarlet brain and the $7000 S35 brain to position a $4500-5000 4/3 brain.

Nitsuj
05-27-2009, 03:14 PM
Another thing that is hurting Red is the recorders coming out. The nanoFlash and the Ki-Pro will be awesome additions to low cost cameras. If the GH1 gets HDMI out then the Scarlet wouldn't even be a blip on a lot of screens. If the Scarlet had been pushed out earlier then they would have trumped the competition. The problem is now they are having to push out their product at a high price point to cover the costs of their production because they are new players in the game. If Red wants to compete I think they are going to have to drop their price point considerably and take a loss in the short term.

AdrianF
05-28-2009, 12:41 AM
It's funny that people are signing a petition for a camera that isn't even on sale yet in most of the world. ;-)
Absolutely. Wouldn't a list of known issues, put forward in a month or so once the cameras and post workflow have been more widely tested, be a bit more effective? Just a thought.


I think Red should consider coming out with a micro 4/3" Scarlet. There seems to be enough room between the $2500 2/3" Scarlet brain and the $7000 S35 brain to position a $4500-5000 4/3 brain.

This has already been thrashed out over at reduser. It doesn't look very likely but who knows? I would like to see a 4/3 mount for the 2/3" Scarlet, in fact, this where this camera could have the biggest identity crisis and the GH1 could potentially hurt the sales. The huge lens choices available make the GH1 a very attractive alternative for low budget 16mm shooting, which is where I see the Scarlet sitting.

asdfyoyoyo
05-28-2009, 09:12 AM
Wouldn't a list of known issues, put forward in a month or so once the cameras and post workflow have been more widely tested, be a bit more effective? Just a thought.

Why wait? The issues being addressed are things that we already know we want improved. The 17mbps AVCHD codec is too weak for 1080p, nobody wants to deal with 24in60 pulldown, and we would all benefit from live monitoring, preferably HDMI-out.

I'd rather be letting Panny know this now, instead of waiting til after it's released. This way Panny has a chance to deliver a powerhouse of a camera.

AdrianF
05-29-2009, 12:25 AM
I'd rather be letting Panny know this now, instead of waiting til after it's released. This way Panny has a chance to deliver a powerhouse of a camera.
The cameras should be here within the next couple of weeks, so they will be what they are when they arrive. Maybe they will have a firmware update or Panny will release one in time. Either way, I just feel that this petition would have more weight behind it if it is backed by the findings of a broad spectrum of users, who've all had hands on experience with the cameras.

Nighthawk
05-29-2009, 12:42 AM
The cameras should be here within the next couple of weeks, so they will be what they are when they arrive. Maybe they will have a firmware update or Panny will release one in time. Either way, I just feel that this petition would have more weight behind it if it is backed by the findings of a broad spectrum of users, who've all had hands on experience with the cameras.

You're probably right and I'm sure that it's inevitable that there will be that ongoing feedback from users as things progress but a nice start to whatever changes Panny is willing to do would be to plop this petition on somebody's desk with a link to this International forum and other interested groups just to see the level of discussion this cam has generated. Fine folk like Barry Green and Philip Bloom have had a chance to voice their concerns. This would be our turn. If it isn't quite enough for now then the hands on experience you mention might, just might, push it over the top. 2 cents.

shzr
09-03-2009, 08:44 AM
You're probably right and I'm sure that it's inevitable that there will be that ongoing feedback from users as things progress but a nice start to whatever changes Panny is willing to do would be to plop this petition on somebody's desk with a link to this International forum and other interested groups just to see the level of discussion this cam has generated. Fine folk like Barry Green and Philip Bloom have had a chance to voice their concerns. This would be our turn. If it isn't quite enough for now then the hands on experience you mention might, just might, push it over the top. 2 cents.

Panasonic better add some more value to the GH1 since they are releasing the GF1. The updates in the petition would do the job.

I wonder if the delay in releasing the GH1 in the US has anything to do w/ the GF1 and/or updates.