Sony EX3 VS. Panasonic HPX170

[Honker]

Hey everyone! I am starting up a production company that is going to be focusing on Music Videos, Documentaries, and Short Films.

I was hoping you guys could help figure out which is the better camera for me- including some pros and cons of the EXS versus the HPX170!
(Also what are the best lens options for both?)

I will be editing these projects on FCP.

I am more creatively inclined, and not the best in the technical department.

I really hope you all could help me out! I would really appreciate it!

[Steve Shovlar]

EX3 all the way. Removable lens, cheap media, larger sensors.......there's a long list why.

If you are shooting docs, stick on an Adaptimax and pick up some Nikons and shoot super telephoto for shots not achievable with the stock lens.

[Honker]

Thanks Steve!

I'd love to hear many more responses!

[adamr316]

It's not really a fair comparison. You should be comparing/price shopping the EX3 to the HPX-300.

But to answer your question, for what it's worth, definitely the EX3 unless you're on a tight startup budget.


As far as lenses, again it depends on your budget. You can't go wrong with Canon, Fujinon or Zeiss.

[Barry_Green]

EX3 is $3,000 more than the HPX170. If you want to compare to the EX3, you should be looking at the HPX300. If you're happy with either the 170 or the EX3, then consider whether that $3,000 matters.

[frisco]

EX3 is $3,000 more than the HPX170. If you want to compare to the EX3, you should be looking at the HPX300. If you're happy with either the 170 or the EX3, then consider whether that $3,000 matters.

Good point.......

When I was shopping the EX3 and HPX170 it was clear that the EX3 had in my opinion far better image quality as well as versatility and interchangeable lens. Than when doing the math, Sony had rebates and the store I bought from discounted some accessories I wanted and the ability to record on SD cards made it very close in cost. At that point it was a no brainer...... EX3 all the way.

frisco

[cheezweezl]

or if you don't care about changing lenses or having TC in/out, save some dough and get the ex1.

same camera as ex3 internally. same lens. same menus. same image.

and definitely ex1/ex3 over hpx170. not even close.

both have strengths and weaknesses. but at the end of the day, the sonys win.

hpx170 - good: global shutter, intra-frame compression, panasonic "mojo"
hpx170 - bad: LCD sucks, pixel shifting, 1/3" chips, P2 media still expensive

ex1/3 - good: full raster 1920x1080 1/2" chips, LCD rocks, record to inexpensive SD cards
ex1/3 - bad: long GOP compression, rolling shutter


the biggest issue with ex is the rolling shutter. when shooting on the long end of the lens, jellovision and skew will show up if you let it. it can be avoided if you take care to steady your long lens shots. the long GOP codec thing isn't a huge deal. you can still manipulate the footage in post without it falling apart.

i've been a die-hard pana guy since i started in this business 3 years ago. and i will still shoot on a 170 or a 500 if i'm shooting ultra fast action or something that would make too much jello on the ex. but otherwise, sony wins this one. after shooting several projects on rented ex's i finally pulled the trigger on one at NAB yesterday (ex1). i shot a bunch with it today and just tweaking colors in post right now. this footage has me feeling giddy....

one thing that i am noticing is that the xdcam footage stays really clean when lifting the mids in post. dvcpro gets ugly real quick when doing this. is this a compression thing? anybody know?

[Honker]

Wow- thank you everyone for great responses!

Exactly what I needed to know!

[Buck Forester]

I have an EX1 and absolutely love it. I haven't shot an HPX170 but I'm sure it's pretty sweet too. There are issues with the EX1/3 that don't effect me in my type of shooting, but you should be aware of them in case you haven't come across them in your research. The rolling shutter issue (mainly from frame filling flashes from cameras and whip pans) and needing an IR filter in some situations when shooting black clothing (turns a muddy reddish brown). The image from this camera is friggin' amazing! It'll make you poop your pants.

[Honker]

the biggest issue with ex is the rolling shutter. when shooting on the long end of the lens, jellovision and skew will show up if you let it. it can be avoided if you take care to steady your long lens shots. the long GOP codec thing isn't a huge deal. you can still manipulate the footage in post without it falling apart.


Thanks Buck, and cheez, but now that brings me back to the rolling shutter issue...

Is this the main issue with the EX3? I am not really technical at all with the camera, and that seemed to be a perfect explanation... but could someone explain it in terms like their talking to a child? hahaha

I am still a little confused on what that means.

[Buck Forester]

Rolling shutter is when you're shooting a scene and your shutter, which is round, falls out of your camera and starts rolling away. The effect of the rolling shutter is dependent upon the angle of the slope you are shooting on. If you're on top of a steep hill, kiss that sucker goodbye.

[DavidNJ]

The EX3 has some features over the EX1. If you aren't going to use those features, and most don't, you'd do much better getting the EX1, a good rod system with shoulder mount, maybe a nanoFlash XDR, some good mics and an external mixer and recorder, grip equipment, lights, filters, etc.

[Buck Forester]

For reals, I'm no expert, but very basically it's an issue due to the CMOS not reading a frame all at once, it has a "read time", so in certain circumstances the effect of this can be seen (camera flashes, whip pans).

I run at full speed often with my EX1 and have never come across rolling shutter effects (no jellovision). One time my little boy took a flash picture with his camera within 3 feet of my lens and it looked sorta weird on playback. If you're shooting around a lot of flashing lights this might not be the camera for you. The skew is not a factor for me, but if you're shooting primarily fast action sports this might not be the camera for you. I shoot music, documentary style stuff, wilderness adventure, chasing my kids, short movies, and this camera is awesome. If I were shooting just paparazzi or race cars, I'd go with CCD chips.

[DavidNJ]

A note on the HPX300. About the same price as an EX3, however with a high quality recoding scheme (100Mb/s AVC Intra). It also 'looks' more like a professional cam than the EX1/EX3 that look like large prosumer cameras. Panasonic also has some cute features built in, the most useful may be the flash correction enhancement previewed at NAB. The new P2s are less expensive, although you will probably be over $10k out the door.

The support network around the Panasonic may be a bit better also. People here and you could always PM Jan. Does anyone know a Sony rep who takes questions if your business card doesn't say 'NBC'?

[Lucere]

Just a heads up for somewhere in the kinda near future :) I was at NAB and the people at The Foundry told me they'd accidentaly stumbled upon a post production solution for the Rolling Shutter issues- skew n jello cam... I believe they said it was while one of their engineers was working on a plug-in for tracking? So, they are now interested in further developing this, possibly as a plug-in for After Effects and/or other softwares. They can't know which until they come further along with it, and they also said they hope to have it out before the year ends (if at all, fingers crossed) but definitely something for us EX1 users to keep an eye out for...

[lahoozaa]

lol, hate that when the roller falls out and you have to chase after it, what a pain in the ass! Rolling shutter = lose


you just became my friend buck

[delaro]

if you shoot music videos and short fictions i personaly think you should really try the hpx170. sharpness is not everything.
check these hpx170 footages: http://theserumlab.com/

[Stevet]

sharpness is not everything, but image detail means a lot.

[delaro]

sharpness is not everything, but image detail means a lot.

well, not for everyone ..... there is tons of DVX footages that i like much more than anything i've seen shot with EXs or Canon 5D. It's all about personal tastes. That's why i was saying people should give a try to the cams before or at least watch all the footages they can find on the web.

[DavidNJ]

All of these cameras have quite a bit of latitude in exposure and color. You can make good quality stuff in any of them. Make a list of your priorities. Poke around and find footage you like. Find out how they made that footage. Then review the cameras against your priorities. Do you have a customer who wants XDCAM EX or DVCProHD? That could be a deciding factor.

Note that some cameras have edge sharpening which is an acquired taste like a 1/4 pounder with cheese.

[Bassman2003]

You could boil it down to 720p or 1080p.

The 170 for all intensive purposes is a 720p camera.

The Ex-1 being a 1080p camera.

Resolution being one of the largest value points for the Ex-1.

The Panasonics really do have a nice image with great color as well.

But you can fine tune the EX-1, so I tend to think the EX-1 has a bit more to offer for the price.

[GuyB]

... but if you're shooting primarily fast action sports this might not be the camera for you. ..

I have started shooting Australia Rules Football with my EX1 and was worried about how bad this might be. I knew I would be on full zoom 80% of the game as the lens is a bit on the short side for the ground I am shooting at which is a decent size. As you can see from this image below of the ground, I am shooting from the red dot on the left about 4 levels up, great vantage point. Anyway, long story short, I didn't see any skew in the images. The point here being that I wasn't looking for it. Maybe if I set out to look for skew I would have noticed it, but while shooting, and later reviewing, I didn't see anything.

[Duke M.]

The standard CMOS produces skew when there is fast side to side movement. Even the Red One has this artifact as demonstrated over at reduser. This is mostly produced when the CMOS reads the sensor from top to bottom and the quick sideways movement makes the lines on the sensor not line up.

The CCD cameras have a similar skew when raising and lower the camera from a tilt or crane shot. This is because the CCD sensor reads from side to side, and again the lines won't line up.

The 170 and 150 are both really 720p cameras at best, extrapolated to a bigger resolution that is viable due to the more efficient compression.

I'm going to commit complete sacralege here and state my opinion that the 150 and 170 are not any better, maybe not as good, as the XH-A1 (a 3 CCD 1440x1080i sensor camera with tape.) The A1 can be bought used for $2,000-$2,300.

My argument is that the A1 is a bigger sensor stuffed in less efficently compressed file (tape), while the 150/170 are low resolution/pixel shifted sensors then extrapolated to a higer rez image. That makes the final image very similar.

The EX1/EX3 are true 1920 sensors and images producing a sharper image with more detail than the A1 or 150/170.

Most cost effective = A1 also 1/3" sensor and has a huge preset advantage and 20x zoom.
Sharpest image = EX1/EX3 (1/2" sensor)
150/170 = tapeless, 1/3" sensor, both 13x zoom.

Due to current transcoding type issues the tapeless 150/170 currently present no real advantage in time over cameras using tape. On the other hand every NLE out there will handle a HDV data from tape without a hickup. Ask yourself if your computer has enough horsepower to use the 150/170 files efficently.

DOF control is the combination of zoom, sensor size, and aperture. If you manually control the aperture, a 1/2" sensor is a little better, but a big zoom makes a world of difference. (Note: EX3 and 300 have changable lenses, if you can afford them.)

They are all five good to great cameras. :love4:

[frisco]

if you shoot music videos and short fictions i personaly think you should really try the hpx170. sharpness is not everything.
check these hpx170 footages: http://theserumlab.com/

Wow....... Thats inspiring !!!!

Many compliments! .........

frisco

[delaro]

Wow....... Thats inspiring !!!!

Many compliments! .........

frisco

it's not me who shot that. It had been posted lately in the hpx170 footage thread.

[cheezweezl]

Thanks Buck, and cheez, but now that brings me back to the rolling shutter issue...

Is this the main issue with the EX3? I am not really technical at all with the camera, and that seemed to be a perfect explanation... but could someone explain it in terms like their talking to a child? hahaha

I am still a little confused on what that means.

do you have an iphone? or access to one? if so, launch the camera app and look at the screen. now jiggle the phone around quickly and watch the image on screen turn to jello. that is rolling shutter. now don't freak out. the iphone is the worst rolling shutter i have ever seen. the jello effect on the ex1/3 is much much more subtle and really only shows up when zoomed way in and moving quickly.


regarding the hpx170 footage with the kid kicking the soccer ball, it's not a big deal to get sharp looking footage when scaled down to web size. it's when you look at it at 100% on a computer screen or on a plasma or lcd tv that the true sharpness and detail of the sony come through and the pixel shifted mess of the panasonic shows it's ugly face.

i have always thought the pana footage looks great at 50% and horrible at 100%. the sony footage just looks great. period.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

In the same price range as the EX3 is the HPX300. And that camera would give you even more flexibility and a stable shooting scnario as it would ride on your shoulder very comfortably.

Best,

Jan

[delaro]

regarding the hpx170 footage with the kid kicking the soccer ball, it's not a big deal to get sharp looking footage when scaled down to web size. it's when you look at it at 100% on a computer screen or on a plasma or lcd tv that the true sharpness and detail of the sony come through and the pixel shifted mess of the panasonic shows it's ugly face.

i have always thought the pana footage looks great at 50% and horrible at 100%. the sony footage just looks great. period.

The colors, motion and organic look of the footage with the kid playing soccer are just impossible to get with the EXs.

[devnull]

The colors, motion and organic look of the footage with the kid playing soccer are just impossible to get with the EXs...

..if you are only capable of point and shoot.

[basspig]

There seems to be a number of people who are under the mistaken impression that the XDCam doesn't have that "mojo" that the Pannies have.
I found that it's all in how you white balance the shot.
I pulled some stills from my XDCam footage shot over the past year and there are some really "mojo" images in there... so here they are, in an album I've started just to show off the great colors you can get with the EX series from Sony:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/album.php?albumid=129 (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/album.php?albumid=129)

[delaro]

well, EX footage with more yellow looks like .... EX footage with more yellow. EX is EX and will look EX whatever you do to the footage. same for HPX. it seems difficult to admit for some people that these are 2 different products with their plus, their minus and their own style. if you offer me 2 EX for my HPX170, i will take the EXs, sell them and buy 3 hpx170. I's just about PERSONAL TASTES, not numbers. what would be the point to affirm "that kodak C41 100 iso film is better than that 400 iso reversible fuji film.period."?



http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=164063

[cheezweezl]

The colors, motion and organic look of the footage with the kid playing soccer are just impossible to get with the EXs.

this is pure BS.

[Lucere]

I was ready to upgrade from my DVX100b in Nov 2008 and enter the HD realm. It was really hard for me to decide between the pluses & minuses between HPX170 & EX1. I loved the "mojo" of Panny, but really wanted the sharpness of the EX & was wishing and wishing a miracle would happen, and if I waited a bit longer, some one would announce a cam that had both. I'm glad I didn't wait too long and ended up getting the EX1. I'm a film editor and for me, when it comes down to it, no matter how you like to shoot, run the camera around on a steadycam or keep it static - ultimately the thing we look at most when watching/experiencing a movie is: what is going on in the depths of an actor's eyes, especially in regards to connecting with our protagonists emotionally! So I chose the clarity/sharpness of the EX.

I really liked my DVX and maybe if I got the HPX170 I'd like that too? However, it's image is undisputedly softer. I am having a lot of fun with the EX. I have yet to take a shot that I can't use. Ergonomically I adapted to it very quickly (it was like changing bicycles) & I even use it on a Fig Rig at times and it's weight is manageable for me.

I absolutely agree with Basspig -- knowing how to manipulate the White Balance is so important if you want to get the most out of this cam, it makes and breaks the difference between good and amazing image acquisition! Along with that, setting up some cool Picture Profiles unquestionably gives the EX1 FANTASTIC "MOJO"! Also the "built in" DOF is a nice additional bonus, even listen to Stu Maschwitz's over at ProLost in regards to the importance of DOF for getting closer to that "film look". It's why he's so psyched/obsessed :) about the upcoming potential of the DSLRs... He also spoke of the importance of DOF in at NAB.

Maybe next round for me will go to Panny, Red, Canon, Sony, or who knows. But when I was pondering and sweating over my decision back in November a peer of mine said - Look at it this way, with the sharpness of the EX1 you really can't go wrong, even when the day comes when it's not one of the main contenders for under $10k it will still serve you as an amazing B cam :)

BTW, I've held the HPX300 and it is quite an amazing cam! But it is also big and very heavy and is not at all discreet. Just a heads up, depending on what your needs are.

[DavidNJ]

What settings did you use? Did you control the edge sharpness at low spatial frequencies?

[cheezweezl]

You could boil it down to 720p or 1080p.

The 170 for all intensive purposes is a 720p camera.

The Ex-1 being a 1080p camera.

Resolution being one of the largest value points for the Ex-1.

The Panasonics really do have a nice image with great color as well.

But you can fine tune the EX-1, so I tend to think the EX-1 has a bit more to offer for the price.


actually the 170 isn't even native 720. it's 3 lower res chips pixel shifted to 1080. then downrezzed to 720 if you are shooting 720.

compare the 720 on the ex1 to the 720 on the 170. ex1 still way sharper.

one thing people argue against is the codec on the ex. however, i am seeing a lot better results in wide shots with a lot of detail with the ex than i do with the pana cams. it is a known issue that wide, highly detailed shots are where the dvcpro cams show the most weakness.

this has been improved with avc intra. if panasonic comes out with a native 1080 1/2" or 2/3" cam with the sharpness of the sony and avc intra, i'm in.... and don't say hpx300. still not as sharp, 1/3" and the worst jello i have ever seen. looks like my iphone....

[basspig]

My settings evolve over time, with me tweaking things on a situational basis, but some things remained constant: the black and white limiters set to 80--I found at the start of experimentation, these eliminate the sharpening halos around highlights. I used STD4 and HiSat for most of those shots. Detail frequency was set pretty high--around 85 with only a small positive number around 15-20 for detail setting.
An interesting thing to note is that enhancing sharpening at lower spatial frequencies gives the illusion of more clarity, but less high frequency detail, more like 'video', but I prefer the look of detail at high spatial frequencies at the expense of that punchy 'video' look, for a more natural photographic look. The stills were all pulled from EX footage I shot last summer and fall.

[DavidNJ]

I noticed, both directly and with JImage, that the a lot EX1 (and HPX300) shots have significant edge sharpening. I've long thought the default settings weighed too much too low spatial frequency sharpening. However, they still seem to fall over past 200lp/ph, which may be a compression issue. Have you recorded from the HD-SDI output directly using a Flash XDR, Blackmagic or AJA card, or maybe an MXO2?

Also, have you had the opportunity to try filters? A Tiffen Digital Diffusion or their HDTV which combines the Digital Diffusion with an Ultra Contrast?

[basspig]

All of my footage is direct to SxS cards, so longGOP MPEG all the way. Have not played with any filters thus far. Haven't felt the need for them, given the sheer amount of control I have through picture profiles.

[DavidNJ]

Not so much long GOP...nothing wrong there...but the higher bandwidth for less compression or more sophisticated compression algorithms.

The advantage of the filters are they modify the analog signal before it is digitized. Often the sensors don't have the resolution or accuracy to do what filters can do. Although today's cameras have come a long way. Tiffen even has a filter software package.

[basspig]

My understanding is that sophisticated cameras already have optical filters that roll off the high frequency information--they're often referred to as anti-aliasing filters. I recall John Galt at Panavision gave a talk on this topic not long ago (the video is online).

I made a discovery with my HDV camera, a V1U, that if I reduce the sharpening, the compression artifacts are considerably reduced. The jury is still out on whether sharpening in camera or in post is the more advantageous at achieving 'the look' with fewer compression artifacts.

[Bassman2003]

I think in a compressed environment, the cleaner the signal you can send though the encoder, the better chance the encoder has.

The detail settings in these cameras really turn out to be more edge enhancement than enything else. The amount of detail is captured by the sensors.

I have had the best results with turning down detail quite a bit which reduces noise in the image and sharpening pretty heavy in post.

The advantage being that the software sharpening has much more processing power at its disposal and it will approach the entire image rather than just the edges.

I use Edius and am amazed at how much clean detail can be found using this method. This has worked best with Panasonic cameras but applies the the EX-1 as well.

[basspig]

There is a parameter called Crispening. It actually controls non-edge enhancement--ie, the texture of surfaces. I've done a series of experiments with shooting textured metal parts on a vintage reel to reel machine and even on the LCD with focus assist, the differences are noticeable.
My best images happened with the edge frequency above +20 and modest sharpening in the + direction. The key to eliminating halos around bright highlights is the black and white limiters. I keep mine around +80 and the halos just vanish with no apparent negative effect on any other part of the image.
I too have played with unsharp mask in my editor and even on DV footage I shot years ago, could pull some fine details out, within the limits of the medium. I have not felt the need to pull more detail out of the EX1 footage, except in cases where I blew the focus while on manual.

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for the info. I will check out those settings.

The amount of menu settings is a real value side of this camera imho.

[Chadfish]

I knew I would be on full zoom 80% of the game as the lens is a bit on the short side for the ground I am shooting at which is a decent size.

Hey Guy

Any chance you have some game footage you can show? I am most likely buying an EX1, but the Panny people have scared me with their propaganda. They say stuff like "If you plan on shooting wide vistas with no movement get the EX1. If you plan on moving the camera left or right, or going hand held get a HPX170". So I would love to see some EX1 shots with movement in them. I'll be mostly mellow stuff on a tripod with medium pans, but occasionally I may need to shoot part of a basketball game for some school.

To anyone: I am looking for some real world EX1 footage with some real world movement. I know about Philip Bloom and his Lettus slow-mo stuff. Beautiful. But how about just a shot of some dogs running around in real time? Camera out a car window? How about a shot taken on a boat? 160 degree pan of some buildings?

I need to separate the fan-boy(girl) propaganda from the straight poop. I am not a rich man, but I do want to invest in a 1080 cam that will give me all around goodness for years to come. So can some of you help me with this rolling shutter fear? I know what it is, and I've seen the horror shots.

Have any of you not used a shot due to skew?

Thanks

Chadfish

[GuyB]

I'll see what I can do for you Chad. I do have the whole last game recorded directly to HDD, try doing that with a Panny ;-)

Edit: Sample video uploaded to Vimeo:

http://www.vimeo.com/4818766 (http://www.vimeo.com/4818766)

You can download the window media 720 50p version as well.

[basspig]

Skew has never been an issue for me. I have observed a 'jello' effect when bumping the tripod with the EX1 on it, but nothing that affected a practical shoot.

One beneficial side effect of the EX1 is low noise. I shot a panel discussion last week that was nearly 3 hours in length. The whole thing had to fit on a single layer DVD, so I used a bitrate under 3mb/S. The lack of noise allowed me to choose a very low encoder rate which enabled me to produce a DVD with superb picture quality (even on a 50" plasma) while running the bitrate at very low rates. And that, despite applying a lot of sharpening in post to punch up the detail on the DVD.

Overall, it's unbeatable for the price vs. features. You can't go wrong.

[Chadfish]

Hey guys I've been on both EX1 vs HPX170 / 150 threads trying to get some clarification on how serious the CMOS jello and such is. This guy Flash Beaver is a P2 guy and has some points. Didn't like the EX1 for boat work, zoomed pans etc. Tells me I'll get jello if I try to recreate a shot I did on my VX2100 by aiming my camera out the back of my car at the Redwoods while moving. His post to me is on page 5 of this thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1645251#post1645251

Can anyone please speak to these points from the Ex1 user point of view? Like I said there I have no rental access or stores, or other users to borrow from. CMOS issues are the only thing making me hesitate on this purchase. Your opinions are appreciated.

Here are some examples of work I've done, and the types of shots I do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txUXx1ABePI&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYG6D45qC5U&feature=channel
There's some car stuff on this "Every 15 Minutes" vid with bumps, and some pans & zooms at 4:30 and beyond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp-et6k-qxM&feature=channel

I wonder if bumps in the road, even little ones, will jello my shots out? Or bump down the detail due to everything moving?

Thanks.

Chadfish

[bob jackson]

here is some sample racing footage shot on an EX1.
http://www.vimeo.com/3521600

[Chadfish]

here is some sample racing footage shot on an EX1.
http://www.vimeo.com/3521600


Thanks I've seen that. Nice looking.

[Buck Forester]

Tells me I'll get jello if I try to recreate a shot I did on my VX2100 by aiming my camera out the back of my car at the Redwoods while moving.


Hey Chadfish, I checked out your videos and I didn't see anything that would be a problem with CMOS. In fact I was up in your area a couple weeks ago shooting redwoods in Humboldt Redwoods State Park and I got plenty of shots from my moving car driving through the majestic groves, no worries there. I shoot with an EX1. I wish I had some clips online to link. I'm sure both cameras you're deciding on are great, but I can personally attest that you won't get skew pointing your EX1 out the back of your car while pointing it at redwoods, unless you're camera is badly vibrating (in which case your footage would be unuseable no matter what kind of camera you were using). Skewing with the EX1 is WAY overstated, but lots of frame-filling flash photography is not.

[Chadfish]

Thanks Buck

Sometimes in a car we don't catch the bad bumps, like in the "15 Min" vid. I was a little worried from some HV20 footage on a tripod in wooden stands. People walked by and jello... maybe I had OIS on too. But al CMOS chips aren't the same I guess too.

[basspig]

I would also echo Buck's comments on this. I watched two of your clips and there is nothing that would present a distracting rolling shutter artifact in those reels.
There's another member here who shoots from small watercraft--if he's getting great footage out the EX1, then I think none of us have anything to worry about with regard to 'JelloCam'.
You'll gain so much in terms of the look of the richness of images that you'll soon forget the word JelloCam ever existed. If you're not shooting intense full-frame flashes of light, it is highly unlikely you will find any objectionable rolling shutter artifact.

[DEPTH OF PHIL]

EX1/EX3 are fantastic cameras, we use both of them. Like anything you have to know how to tweak it. But the pic profiles, the clarity, the low light and great stock lens are a real plus.
They are finicky with lens adapters due to the oversized optics and its lens. But overall, we are quite impressed with them and we came straight from using the F900s and Panny Vari cams.

You have a lot of great users above in this thread, with tips and tricks so welcome to the family!
Cheers

[Chadfish]

They are finicky with lens adapters due to the oversized optics and its lens.

Hi Philip!

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I have actually found a guy who has an EX1 in the area. A friend of a friend who I might meet and get to check the thing out in person. Anyway, concerning lens adapters...

Are you talking WA adapters? I eventually plan on going a bit wider. Is there a bayonet mountability for something like that on the EX1?

Or are you talking about adding something like a Lettus/brevis adapter? What do you mean by "finicky"? Down the line I want to go that rout too for possible short film work.

Thanks for all the input guys. You are dispelling the fear the Panni guys are trying to instill in me. I think they are lonely and want me on their side... However that little Panni 150 looks pretty cool. I wonder how the footage would blend between the 2 brands if I got my boss to pick up a 150, and I get the EX1.


Later

Chadfish

[Buck Forester]

You are dispelling the fear the Panni guys are trying to instill in me. I think they are lonely and want me on their side...


Ha ha! I think people are just more apt to promote what they are familiar with, regardless of type of product or brand. I came real close to getting an HVX200 but held off when the EX1 was introduced and went through the same process you're going through now. I'm convinced I would've loved the HVX200, but I absolutely love the footage from my EX1. Either way you can't go wrong, it's not like there's secret information being withheld and one is the right choice and the other left you sucker-punched, ha! That said, there's some truth to the story that all those Panasonic guys "fell for the trick" and now they're pissed off and they want you too! :Drogar-Smoke(DBG):

[Chadfish]

Right on Buck.

The market I'm working in now doesn't even have any HD television locally, so professionally I'll be busting my footage to SD before I deliver, but I want to have the full resolution for future projects and be ready if something comes my way.

Maybe you know this: Do botth the EX1 and 170/150/200 put out broadcast resolution? If I were shooting for library footage could it be used on discovery channel? Or is that all for the big big boy cams? I heard somewhere that BBC won't take EX1 footage because it's too compressed. What can you (or anyone) tell me about these cams and HD programming?

Thanks!

Chadfish

[Buck Forester]

From what I understand (which is not as much as many others here), Discovery Channel HD has tiers (Gold, Silver, Bronze) for cameras and I've heard from these forums that the EX1/3 is rated at Silver, which is apparently good enough for 100% acquisition. I could be wrong but I think the HVX200a and HPX170 can only be used for certain percentages, not 100%. I think some HD programs like The Alaska Experiment and Man vs. Wild use the HVX200 for their footage when the big cameras are too much to handle in the circumstances, so it's a combo. I don't say this de facto, so someone may correct me if needed. I don't know much about the BBC's requirements. I've seen some of the HD channels say they need 1/2" chips or larger as a minimum. I feel very confident I can get my EX1 footage as a primary camera on most any HD channel.

In your case you might want to shoot HCM150 for a year or so, save yourself some initial moolah in the process, because in another year I'm pretty sure you'll have a lot more options to choose from. It's going HD fast, and bigger and cheaper. The Canon Mark II just went manual control and Scarlet will 'probably' be out later this year and the other companies will probably have true 1920x1080+ offerings in price ranges that are less than today. It's always "transition time" with technology, but I think even more so at this moment. If I were buying right now and I didn't 'have' to have the resolution of the EX1, I'd go with the 150 and wait a year. If I had to have high-rez in a sub-$8,000 camera, I'd jump all over the EX1 again, right here, right now. You betcha. It'll be viable for quite a while with the picture it makes.

[DEPTH OF PHIL]

Hi Philip!

Thanks for the encouragement. I think I have actually found a guy who has an EX1 in the area. A friend of a friend who I might meet and get to check the thing out in person. Anyway, concerning lens adapters...

Are you talking WA adapters? I eventually plan on going a bit wider. Is there a bayonet mountability for something like that on the EX1?

Or are you talking about adding something like a Lettus/brevis adapter? What do you mean by "finicky"? Down the line I want to go that rout too for possible short film work.

Thanks for all the input guys. You are dispelling the fear the Panni guys are trying to instill in me. I think they are lonely and want me on their side... However that little Panni 150 looks pretty cool. I wonder how the footage would blend between the 2 brands if I got my boss to pick up a 150, and I get the EX1.


Later

Chadfish

Well all the guys on the forum may be able to help on this one, (please) Well Century makes a "updated" Wide angle 0.75 for the EX1 and its full zoom thru now and excellent, But it is very pricey . I have not tried Cavision's WA out , they have three models i believe , any body used a Cavision on EX1?

DOF adapter's you will find many posts on this subject , but EX1 Letus Elite/Ultimate (way too pricey) have no major problems anymore with the EX1/EX3.

Blade is on it's way with the new upgraded achromat to help solve the issue, but it's not perfect, (what is perfect anyway?) G35 also works well on an EX1 as well!
Perhaps some else give us a summary on the M2E, so we don't cross threads too much.

You making a great choice, and you will learn to work around its rolling shutter issues. & remember to take the detail off in the settings
Congrats

[DEPTH OF PHIL]

Right on Buck.

The market I'm working in now doesn't even have any HD television locally, so professionally I'll be busting my footage to SD before I deliver, but I want to have the full resolution for future projects and be ready if something comes my way.

Maybe you know this: Do botth the EX1 and 170/150/200 put out broadcast resolution? If I were shooting for library footage could it be used on discovery channel? Or is that all for the big big boy cams? I heard somewhere that BBC won't take EX1 footage because it's too compressed. What can you (or anyone) tell me about these cams and HD programming?

Thanks!

Chadfish

Well , NBC Universal take EX series so does Sony Television, that is who we license our footage too. If it will put out 1080p x 1920, it is true HD broadcast specs.
Cheers

[Buck Forester]

I don't use 35mm adapters, but I do use the bayonet mount wide-angle adapters. I have the Sony .8x and the Century .55x Fisheye. The go on easy and work great. The Sony is sharp and full zoom-thru, the Century is sharp where I need it to be but vignettes along the corners (but the corners are distorted anyway).

[Barry_Green]

Do botth the EX1 and 170/150/200 put out broadcast resolution?
Definitely.


If I were shooting for library footage could it be used on discovery channel?
Maybe, maybe not. If it's "commissioned" footage, you'd be limited to 15% program content from the 1/3" cameras. If it's a spec series you're selling to them, then no such restrictions would apply.


I heard somewhere that BBC won't take EX1 footage because it's too compressed. What can you (or anyone) tell me about these cams and HD programming?
In the BBC's delivery guidelines, they specify that any inter-frame format less than 50mbps is considered standard-def, and by that statute the EX1 would fall into the restricted category (as would all XDCAM-HD products). They could be used for up to 25% of a program's contents, but that's the limits.

In Alan Roberts' report on the EX1 for the BBC, he describes the EX1's 35mbps HQ mode as
This mode is not usually considered suitable for full broadcast HDTV shooting.

[DEPTH OF PHIL]

Hey Barry, good to know, thanks for the info , i enjoy your articles in HDVIDEOPRO, Keep em coming mate!