Radically Less Expensive p2 Cards Announced

[David Saraceno]

Here's the link to the blog that Barry is doing live from the Panasonic Press conference at NAB2009:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=168707

"Major P2 announcement...

Advancements in solid-state memory are allowing them to increase capacity and speed while lowering costs.

A NEW TYPE OF P2 CARD: the P2 "E" Series. It's "blazing fast", thanks to a newly developed design, it's 1.2 gigabits per second! And they're cheaper: "dramatically lower prices". The new 64GB card has an MSRP of under $1,000 (the existing A series card is $2650!) The 32GB card is $625, and the 16GB is $420.

They have a shorter lifetime than the existing A series, about 5 years of daily use. 16 and 32 are available in May, the new 64 is available in August."

[n8ture]

Whoo Hooo!

[wilsonhvx]

Wow! What a great way to end my spring break.

[slimchrisp]

about damn time. that's some really exciting news.

[Tom 4]

What would get me excited is a P2 card reader as like Sony's offering for their SxS ---
http://www.abelcine.com/store/product.php?productid=1000416
that would be even BIGER and more exciting news to me, and lots more P2 users.

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

[Carlos Corral]

If not, let's hope the dual adapter works with these new E series cards.

[Barry_Green]

The Duel Adapter will work with them. They are 100% compatible with all P2 devices.

[Kevin McElroy]

Wow, this is great news!!! :beer:

[wgzn]

though, it seems the cheaper cards appear to have a shorter lifespan... for me. i'll stay with what i trust.

BTW, its DUEL, DUEL, DUEL, DUEL - NOT DUAL!

[David Saraceno]

It's also blu ray

Not Blue Ray

:)

[timbook2]

Major national tv stations in Germany who have not jumped on the P2 workflow are the majority and have gone the Son¥ route or remained with them. I wish this wouldnt be the case...
Still: the price drop is not steep enough. ZDF is the only German broadcaster who jumped on the pana bandwagon and the P2 price was one of the reasons, the others went XDCAM.

[ShootDC]

I notice the new "E" series P2 cards are expected to offer five years of service as stated by Panasonic. Do they have a self destruct trigger built into them? What is the difference between the traditional P2 cards and the new "E" series?

Barry, you gotta have some insight from your Panny friends. What say you my friend?

[jrmiller_entertainment]

Do they have a self destruct trigger built into them?

were you joking?

[ShootDC]

were you joking?

Of course I was joking. I am just trying to find out why they might expire after five years. Since Panasonic makes a point of stating that in their literature.

Just wondering if an insider like Barry might be able to offer some insight.

Cheers

[Spec-Comm]

What's this about the new E-Series P2 cards?

They're deliciously low-cost?

They're coming next month?

Spec-comm is taking preorders?

Oh, yes. We're taking preorders.

16GB E-Series P2 Card (http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=970)

32GB E-Series P2 Card (http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=969)

Right now there isn't a specific shipping date, so we don't know if it will be 'early May' or 'late May', please assume they'll be released later (until further notice).

According to the dealer information, the 62GB cards will be available in August. We'll be taking preorders on them as well, just be aware that they won't be shipping soon.

64GB E-Series P2 Card (http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=968)

Edit:


Of course I was joking. I am just trying to find out why they might expire after five years. Since Panasonic makes a point of stating that in their literature.

Just wondering if an insider like Barry might be able to offer some insight.

Cheers

It has to do with the type of flash memory used. The new cards use cells that hold more memory so are less expensive to manufacture. However, they can't be rewritten as much, which is why they die after so much use. Still, it's a lot of use for a P2 cards. Few people will be using their P2 cards every single day, and in five years it's very likely you'll have replaced that card two or three times already.

Best,

Jasmine Moore
Administrative Assistant
Specialized Communications Corp.
20940 Twin Springs Dr.
Smithsburg, MD 21783-1510 USA
800-359-1858 (US)
301-790-0103
Fax: 301-790-0173
jasminem@spec-comm.com
www.spec-comm.com

[Derrick_SA]

Now ain't that music to your years, those prices are awesome for what you get, I mean, if they're talking 5 years of daily use, your gonna make your money back a gazzilion times over using them over 5 years. that's almost 2000 rewrites (and I'm sure panasonic is being modest in their 5 year claim), it ends up being about $0.33 a day (or per use, and remember that is 100% use), can't complain about that!!!

Thanks Panasonic, it's really appreciated!

- Derrick

[ksteiger]

I don't like this idea. I'd rather pay full price for reliability. What if I use it 4 times in 5 years. Does it still blow up. This seems like a bad idea. I can't wait for 5 years to pass and all the people who are shouting "HURRAY" will be bitching that they have to replace all their P2 cards.
I will stick with the other "E" series...expensive.

[Pedro_Iorio]

If you only use your card 4 times in five years they still gonna work, because Panny has said tehy'll last 5 years of daily use.

And if you really only use it four times in five years, you're wasting money buying what you van rent.

[jrmiller_entertainment]

of course I was joking. I am just trying to find out why they might expire after five years. Since Panasonic makes a point of stating that in their literature.]

haha ok. just checking.

[Comstock1]

Jan from Panasonic answered this on another thread. There is no time limit on the card. It has a "use" limit. I think she said the magic number is 1825 which is once a day for five years. The card will begin to warn you at some point before it shuts down that you are approaching the use cap on the card.

All that aside, will P2 still even be a favored format in five years? I think the five year limit is a total non issue for 99% of people who will actually be using them.

[jrmiller_entertainment]

I can't wait for 5 years to pass and all the people who are shouting "HURRAY" will be bitching that they have to replace all their P2 cards.If someone cant afford another $988 64GB P2 card in 5 years (and that's without memory prices going down) then thehy must not be doing something right business wise. They're talking about filling it up daily for 5 years. If you do that then you should be more than willing to buy more P2 cards because obviously the investment worked.

[andy mace]

Certain types of memory have a limit to the read write cycle. It doesn't mean that the card will die in 5 years just that after a point they start to develop errors.

Daily use means to me 8 hours. Multiply that by 365*5 and you get 14600 hours. Just a guess but it will take a while to wear one out at that rate...

[TwistedLincoln]

Jan from Panasonic answered this on another thread. There is no time limit on the card. It has a "use" limit. I think she said the magic number is 1825 which is once a day for five years. The card will begin to warn you at some point before it shuts down that you are approaching the use cap on the card.

All that aside, will P2 still even be a favored format in five years? I think the five year limit is a total non issue for 99% of people who will actually be using them.

I'm not a fan of a technology enforced time limit. Even though (as you say), it is unlikely that most people will hit the limit anytime soon, I'd rather the card just warn me that it is at the limit rather than stop working. I'd rather relegate the old, over-limit card to test shots or non-critical applications than just throw it away.

The enforced limit reminds me of the HP inkjet cartridges that stop working after the expiration date even if there's ink left...

Still, for what I do I may still buy a couple just for the price savings.

Wonder how this will effect the value of used standard P2 cards?

[USLatin]

sweet... this must be for the AVC Ultra


THANK YOU RED!

[wgzn]

my fear is that the stated 5year life span might also translate to less day to day stability - it may not. i may be totally full of crap. but really the existing P2 pricing hasnt hurt my work load at all. so i hope they will continue producing the existing format cards as well...

[ShootDC]

I appreciate Panasonic attempting to find a solution for the fairly pricey P2 cards. I have three P2 cameras and was an early adopter of the system - some of my cards will soon enough be coming up on the five year mark. Do I use them 365 days a year - no - but I do use them multiple times a day very often and maintain a heavy shooting schedule.
I would hate to think my original p2 card purchases were nearing a possible sunset date - they aren't so I don't have to worry. P2 is such a rock solid recording system. I would hate to compromise my shoot on recording media that one day might not perform.
Its too early to tell how well the "E" series cards will work, but at least there is a new option. Memory prices will continue to fall and maybe it is a smart play for the short term. Panasonic has trumped its rival Sony in the pro market. They have been right up till this point, so maybe this is simply another success for the P2 system.
Looking forward to hearing everyone's experiences with these new cards.

[slimchrisp]

BTW, its DUEL, DUEL, DUEL, DUEL - NOT DUAL!




It's also blu ray

Not Blue Ray

:)


you guys crack me up. you're on a mission i guess.

duel, blu-ray. ok, one convert here.

[USLatin]

200Mb/s is a lot... I worry about archiving? Well being that optical discs are 1000% safe for ever and ever, ow much AVC Ultra will we be able to archive using dual layer blue rays?

[mcgeedigital]

At 200Mb/s I would imagine you are in LTO-4a territory for backup.

[Dick Campbell]

You know, this new card product is almost Machiavellian in nature. With the cheaper prices, 'A' type cards will disappear. Mandated wear out schemes will force users to replace cards on a regular basis .. I'll wake up now,

[USLatin]

Yea, I wuz just trying to use DUAL and BLUE RAY for jokes. :)

Yea... 200Mb/s 4:4:4 projects might deserve LOTs anyway!

I am very exited about this AVC Ultra thing... as in I am hoping that HPX170's will drop in price! But I am not so sure about that... they'll probably bring in that 170-looking camera somewhere at about ~$6,250... is there any info on pricing on Barry's or other threads that I missed?


You know, this new card product is almost Machiavellian in nature. With the cheaper prices, 'A' type cards will disappear. Mandated wear out schemes will force users to replace cards on a regular basis .. I'll wake up now,

Its been said before, but let me be more clear... there is NO solid state memory based product that will die on you before it becomes obsolete. 5 years means 6-8 years. In less than 80% of it's life you will have the opportunity to buy a card at least twice its size at less than half the price.. give or take... all hypothetical random numbers that I am throwing out... but you won't see anyone post saying that I am completely off base... maybe a little of, someone might believe they are off by quite a bit, but none will disclaim the reasoning.

[monday1313]

jeez guys, slow down and read. It's not a time based expiration, it's a useage based expiration. Just like a rechargebale battery, you can't keep recharging it forever.

Even memory in solid state drives don't last. that's why the have writing schemes that make sure each block get's written on before it uses a block that's already be written on again. it does this repeatedly, that's why there are still issues with ssd drives slowing down after awhile.

If panasonic is using cheaper memory cells then they won't last as long. Even the P2 cards we have now won't last forever. If you FILL UP the card EVERY SINGLE DAY for 5 years then it will wear out from USE, not time...

:-)

[singleframe]

this is big -- more TV shows...even reality hows will be utilizing the solid P2 workflow.

and i'll be picking up a few extra cards for sure!!
glad i waited -- almost bought a used 32 GB card for mucho cabbage!

[Buck Forester]

Good news for Panasonic users, and a good move by Panasonic. I read where Sony is dropping SxS prices on their larger cards, but this price point by Pansonic for a 64 GB sounds like it'll beat the SxS price. Sorta steals a little of the thunder Sony had on media price (not so much the file size of the card, but the record times).

In a coupla years these cards will probably be the price of a Starbucks venti skinny-boy decaf latte no-foam.

[Luis Caffesse]

Its been said before, but let me be more clear... there is NO solid state memory based product that will die on you before it becomes obsolete.

Absolutely.

To put that in perspective - P2 was introduced about 5 years ago, at which point a 4gb card was priced at $1700.

How many people are still shooting on 4GB cards?
And if given the option - how many people would even WANT to shoot on 4gb cards?

Today we're looking at the potential of a card that is 16 TIMES larger in capacity for what will possibly be roughly HALF the price. So... looking at history, what do you think we'll be dealing with 5 years from now? The shorter 'lifespan' of the cards should be a total non issue for the vast majority of DVXuser members. Odds are the cards will be seen as close to obsolete before they even get close to reachign the end of their life.

This new series of cards, and the lower price, is nothing but good news from where I"m standing.

[ChipG]

Today we're looking at the potential of a card that is 16 TIMES larger in capacity for what will possibly be roughly HALF the price. So... looking at history, what do you think we'll be dealing with 5 years from now?

A 1TB card for $499. Damn, is that correct?

64gb x16 = 1024gb. Yep, now cut the price in half and it's $499! :thumbup:

[ChipG]

Yea, I wuz just trying to use DUAL and BLUE RAY for jokes. :)

Don't be a dual bag, be a duel bag :beer:

[AJ101]

Who has'nt paid for their 8GB cards yet? Imagine how quickly you would pay for your new E Series 32GB card. By year 2 you should be buying 256GB!!! at least. 5 years is loooong time in technology. By that time we'll just use our built in wi-fi to stream to a centralised solid state server while the jobs being edited in 4 D! P2 will be in the broadcast hall of fame as that first solid state recording medium! Someone will say " I still have an E series card!" I don't think Panasonic will design the card to self destruct, it might just warn you that the maximum re-writes have been reached and it's time to buy a new camcorder!

[randy09660]

I appreciate Panasonic attempting to find a solution for the fairly pricey P2 cards. I have three P2 cameras and was an early adopter of the system - some of my cards will soon enough be coming up on the five year mark. Do I use them 365 days a year - no - but I do use them multiple times a day very often and maintain a heavy shooting schedule.
I would hate to think my original p2 card purchases were nearing a possible sunset date - they aren't so I don't have to worry. P2 is such a rock solid recording system. I would hate to compromise my shoot on recording media that one day might not perform.
Its too early to tell how well the "E" series cards will work, but at least there is a new option. Memory prices will continue to fall and maybe it is a smart play for the short term. Panasonic has trumped its rival Sony in the pro market. They have been right up till this point, so maybe this is simply another success for the P2 system.
Looking forward to hearing everyone's experiences with these new cards.
Well I think this will help people that need cards. Either their first cards or more cards. (I need some I've been using a FS-100 or renting cards.) Then after a while if they're making money they can by some of the other cards that hopefully will have come down in price and not have the five year limit?:huh::):huh:

[Gabriel Berube]

That's pretty great news from Panasonic, I'm glad I went down the P2 road. I sure as hell don't fill all of my A-series cards daily, so the price tag is more than welcome! 32Gb E-series cards for 3/4th the price of a 16Gb A-series? I'm all-in!:beer:

Now, my guess is that people who were whining about the price issue will instead whine about durability! Foo! :costumed-smiley-047

[FilmBoy77]

sweet. i wonder if panasonic or places like spec-comm will be able to include a larger format p2 card when you buy cameras like the hpx170 or hvx200a now?

[puredrifting]

I believe that the card is included by Panasonic USA, not the retailer.

Dan

[USLatin]

I believe that the card is included by Panasonic USA, not the retailer.

Dan

Exactly. But I don't see why not... it should at least be a 32GB at those prices.

[dregenthal]

Exactly. But I don't see why not... it should at least be a 32GB at those prices.

I would expect to see Panasonic doing this when the economy cards come available in number.

If you think about it they'll be able to put a 32 economy card in the box for less (cost to them) than the current 16.

[USLatin]

Yup!

And one 32GB included and one more for that price, with the ability to use them for AVC Ultra, well that's a gooooood place to be. :)

[ryvac]

actually 5 years isn't bad at all.

buy 1 for 5 years of last time.
buy 2 for 10 years of last time
buy 10 for 50 years of last time
buy 20 and you wont last

[Barry_Green]

Why are you guys thinking they'll put a 32GB card in the box? I would be shocked if they put anything other than a 16GB "E" series card in the box...

[kecorcoran]

Why are you guys thinking they'll put a 32GB card in the box? I would be shocked if they put anything other than a 16GB "E" series card in the box...

Well, one would expect that if the price of the card dropped, either the price of the camera + card would drop as well or the package price would remain the same but size of the card would go up.

Otherwise it will seem to potential buyers (like me) that the cost of the camera is going up.

Kevin

[puredrifting]

Or Panasonic could just not include anything in the box. They did that for quite a while on the 200. 300 and the larger models are not including any free P2 media.

All of that is promotional, not a standard operating procedure.

Dan

[Barry_Green]

Otherwise it will seem to potential buyers (like me) that the cost of the camera is going up.
Okay, yes, but... the card is a freebie that Panasonic throws in. A "starter" card. And no other division of Panasonic does that -- if you buy a 170 in Canada or South America or Europe or Japan or China or Singapore or India or New Zealand or anywhere else in the world, you don't get *any* card. Heck, you don't even get a card with the HMC150, and it uses cheap SD cards...

So yes, I would expect that Panasonic would substitute the less expensive card and keep the capacity and price tag the same. If they do otherwise, I would look at that as unexpected generosity on their part. They've always said that the free card is a limited-time promotion, so -- they could change the promotion, increase it, decrease it, or discontinue it. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if they kept it the 'same' by substituting a 16GB "E" series instead of the 16GB "R" series or "A" series.

[kecorcoran]

Right, but "free card" is just marketing language. Really, we all know, there's no such thing as a free P2 card. The card has a value and Panasonic has priced the camera to include that.

As a potential buyer, I have a different point of view -- I just want to know what I can get for my money.

Jan has made some mention of a P2 rebate for new HPX300 buyers. I've been hitting refresh on all relevant threads looking for some clue as to whether the new 'E 'P2 cards will have an impact on the HP170X price/capacity equation, and if so, when.

I need to buy something -- HPX170 or EX1 -- in the next week or so. So I'm just a little bit anxious trying to evaluate all of the factors. If Panasonic doesn't plan to change the price/capacity of the HPX170 package, I wish Jan would authoritatively say so in one of these threads.

[Take_1]

OR ... you could just buy your 170(1) from here: DS Video (http://www.dsvideo.tv/panasonic_2669.php) like I did. Camera plus 2 x 32GB A series cards, and shoots both NTSC / PAL included in the price. Got mine for £3800.00 ($5,500 USD) The current price would be about $6200.00 USD. They are an authorized Panasonic dealer. I figured for the huge cash I would save going this route I could send the camera back a few times for warranty if I ever needed to. Highly worth considering ...

[Justyn]

Maybe all of the bitching about the price of P2 and those of us who switched because of it has made Panasonic thankfully switch thoughts. I had jumped to the 150 and got out of P2 cause of the record times and the expense of the cards. Now this makes so much more sense and will help to keep people in the P2 ranks for a while. If I had seen this coming I might have considered the 170 instead of the 150... but I can't say that I'm not stoked about the 150 and have put it up againt 170 footage with virtually no difference.

Kudos to Panny for listening and putting this media in line with other nonlinear media. Makes also thinking about the 300 much more tangible. That's some really good news for all concerned.
A64 gig card would be sweet at 40 percent of the price 3 months ago.

[pkendall]

well I'm glad I blew $2600 on a 64 gig card... thanks for the warning Panasonic..

[puredrifting]

Sell it now, not everyone has heard about the E series yet.

Dan

[S.Reynolds]

It's also blu ray

Not Blue Ray

:)

Blu-ray. You always start with a capital letter. Hooray for the cheaper cards!

[singleframe]

well I'm glad I blew $2600 on a 64 gig card... thanks for the warning Panasonic..

yeah, sell on eBay... but set a reserve!!

[CW-35]

well I'm glad I blew $2600 on a 64 gig card... thanks for the warning Panasonic..

I spent $2300 on mine but I am not feeling so bad about it. I have used it a bit and I have it now.

The new cards have just been announced, not available.

I will definitely buy the E series ones from this point forward.

[pkendall]

yeah, sell on eBay... but set a reserve!!

if i did sell it I'd sell it on Craigslist.. i live in NYC plus it's no fee.. my 16 gig card sold in a day... but I don't know if i'll sell my 64 gb card just yet.. I need it.. Will the A series usage be metered as well? does anyone know?

[David Saraceno]

Blu-ray. You always start with a capital letter. Hooray for the cheaper cards!

Actually, it's blu-ray™ with the "™."

:)

[Barry_Green]

What idiot chose a misspelling of "blurry" to describe a high-def disc? :evil:

[DC]

My $2300 64GB P2 card arrived to me on Friday, April 17th. On Sunday, April 19th, I found out about the "E" series. I'm not devastated, but I'm a bit torn on what to do. For now, it's business as usual.

For non-personal reasons, I think the "E" series makes great business sense for Panasonic and the customers. The "5-year limit" is really a non-issue, at least nothing I'm worried about or think anyone should be worried about.

Anyway, that Sonnet Quio is pretty cool! :thumbsup:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=168996
For my plans, it will be perfect with my future laptop and eSATA drives.

[FREUDENBERG_FILMS]

This is great news.

Now I can buy the 32 Gig card and not feel guilty

Panasonic has made such a great move tat now more people will look at the HVX and the HPX as an affordable tool

[JitCam]

p2 cards are still too much in my opinion.. especially with whats going on in the market now.. i purchased an hvx200 back in the day and feel like an idiot now.. since the hvx200a came out with better low light capabilities.. and such a long time for the p2 card to come down in price.. there is just noo excuse for such prices it goes against the whole technology gets cheaper quickly as time goes by.. even if ur making loads of money from videowork.. its just unrealistic.. the result.. im still shooting on tape.. i got a 16gb card about a year ago.. and its really enough to do any professional gigs with.. i just think panasonic should have considered us videoguys who dont make 10 grand a month from our work...

[Barry_Green]

there is just noo excuse for such prices it goes against the whole technology gets cheaper quickly as time goes by..
P2 cards have gone from $275 per gigabyte in 2005, to $11 per gigabyte today. I think your statement is not an accurate representation, they clearly have come down in price dramatically over time.