Live from the Panasonic NAB press conference...

[Barry_Green]

11:58 a.m. ... I've got a choice front-row seat and a Verizon broadband-equipped laptop... you guys will know everything as soon as it's announced... check back frequently as I'll keep refreshing this post.

12:00 ... there's at least one new camera going to be introduced; I can see it across the room but they haven't announced anything yet

12:00 ... the announcer just said that the presentation will begin in five minutes, so ... wait for it...

12:05 ... still waiting. The new camera looks like a mini HVX.

12:06 ... it even has a snorkel.

12:07 ... if people would SIT DOWN, we could get this party started... Sheesh. :)

12:10 ... sizzle reel is showing. Beijing Olympics...

12:12 ... Jim Wickizer, national manager, marketing services.
P2HD will be the official recording format of the 2010 Vancouver Olympics.

12:14 ... John Baisle, President of Panasonic Broadcast USA
He's wearing an "eco-friendly" pin
Business has been challenging, but the business climate is improving.
Panasonic's Vision is eco-friendly, solid state recording, and file-based workflow
Their Technology Strategy is MPEG-4 AVC widespread support
It's being broadly adopted by both Panasonic and other manufacturers
Talking about the spread of AVC-I, from teh 3700 down to the 300
Talking about introduction of professional AVCHD lineup, "AVCCAM"
"an ideal choice for professional customers with a smaller budget"
The HMC150 is enjoying "incredible customer momentum"
More AVCCAM announcements in a moment.

Major P2 announcement...

Advancements in solid-state memory are allowing them to increase capacity and speed while lowering costs.

A NEW TYPE OF P2 CARD: the P2 "E" Series. It's "blazing fast", thanks to a newly developed design, it's 1.2 gigabits per second! And they're cheaper: "dramatically lower prices". The new 64GB card has an MSRP of under $1,000 (the existing A series card is $2650!) The 32GB card is $625, and the 16GB is $420.

They have a shorter lifetime than the existing A series, about 5 years of daily use. 16 and 32 are available in May, the new 64 is available in August.

There are 950 broadcast stations and over 110,000 P2 units in use worldwide. Professional and college sports, moviemaking, nature and documentaries. More than 340 US TV stations, including most large production groups. KSTP is the ABC affiliate in Minneapolis/St. Paul and is the latest group to convert, they've bought over 40 HPX300s for use in the field as well as in the studio. P2's usage in broadcast production is gaining momentum; Starz' "Party Down" is shot on the HPX3000. THey're showing a clip.

In addition to P2, they're 'delighted' with the growing support of AVCCAM. Schools, churches, government agencies, wedding videographers, and more are choosing AVCCAM.

12:24 Joe Facchini, director of product marketing.
"AVC-Intra features 64x the color values of competing 8-bit formats like HDV or XDCAM."
"More and more top production professionals (like Jason Zada and Graham Futerfas and Eric Koretz) are switching to AVC-Intra."
HPX300: a "key" new product introduction. The world's first affordable 10-bit professional camcorder.
Coming soon: a new customized studio configuration under $10,000.
Dan Brockett just got a shoutout! They say he's the classic target customer for the HPX300. Oooh, he's even getting a video interview. You go, DVXUser Dan Brockett! Talking about a spot he did for the metro transit authority. He's sitting on a matthews red dolly, holding the camera out over the street, couldn't do that with a larger betasp camera, etc. "it has amazing features for the money, detachable lens, great codec, flexibility to shoot in almost any kind of situation. It's a lot of camera for the money."

Joe Facchini: MOS-based sensors can suffer from flash issues. Panasonic is advancing the performance of MOS imagers by introducing a free firmware upgrade for Flashband Compensation. It fixes the CMOS flash issues!

P2 Portable. We already know all this...

PCD35 five-slot P2 Drive with PCI Express Bus. This is the one you want if you're using the new E-series cards, it's 1.2gbps. Plugs into a computer's PCI-E slot. $2190.

AJ-HRW10 P2 Rapid Writer offloads up to 5 cards at a time and copies it simultaneously to RAID hard drives, and has a gigabit ethernet port. Available now at $9,995.

HPX3700 and HPX2700: "earning excellent reputations in the movie and TV industries". Varicam performance with 10-bit master-quality recording. HPX3700: 4:4:4 RGB Dual Link live signal, while simultaneously recording 4:2:2 AVC-I in the camera. HPX2700: full frame rates from 1 to 60 in 720p; Shane Hurlbut ASC used the 3700 to shoot a Cheech & Chong concert. He's the cinematographer of Terminator: Salvation, Swing Vote, Into The Blue, and many more. He's getting a video interview.

"The look of film, the dynamic range of film, with no hassles. He loved the resolution, the feel, the skin tones were excellent. The 3700 was the ultimate choice."

12:38 Bob Harris, VP of marketing and product development
Talking about the benefits of AVCCAM. Reliability, price, playback options, instant access. Best Buy sells a compatible playback device for under $100, or you can use one of panasonic's plasma displays with an SD slot built in. Event videographers, law enforcement, schools, churches, filmmakers, enthusiasts.
AVCCAM NLE support: FCP, iMovie, CS4, EDIUS Pro and Nero, Pinnacle Studio 12, Sony Vegas, and Casablanca all support PH mode, "well beyond the quality that HDV can deliver."

AVCCAM line-up: HMC70 and HMC150. Video clip from Robert Neal, owner of Glass Slipper Productions. "The HMC150 is going to be sharp, crystal clear, and it's going to be what I want. The buttons are where you want them to be. No dropped frames, no worries of whether you got the shot. Look at this camera, look at its footage, and it'll rest all your fears and you'll be a believer."

Bob Harris: so, what's next? We're expanding the AVCCAM line with three new products.
HMC40: compact handheld camcorder. This is the mini-HVX-looking cam. Priced at MSRP $3195, with 2.2megapixel 3MOS imagers, 12x optical zoom, and it does 1080 @ 24p/30p/60i, and 720p at 24p/30p/60p. Has 10.6 megapixel still image capture, DRS, cine-like gamma, HDMI, USB 2.0, composite and component output, and two XLR audio inputs.
"It's the hybrid camera professionals have been longing for. It also offers high-end functions including Dynamic Range Stretch and a cine-like gamma mode for independent movie and music video producers."

"Users have the choice of enhancing the camera's capabilities with an OPTIONAL XLR audio input module." Has a 3-year warranty.

So I guess the XLRs aren't built-in? Will have to ask.

AG-HMR10 Portable Recorder/player: compact, battery-powered "deck" like a P2 Portable. HDMI *and* HD-SDI output. HD-SDI input! 3.5" color LCD screen. Offers full tapeless file-based recording capability for HD-SDI-based cameras, switchers, tape decks, and other production tools. 12 hours of 1440x1080 recording or 3 hours of "PH" mode 1080 or 720 recording, on a 32GB card.

AG-HCK10 "POV CAM". 1/4" full-HD 3-MOS imagers (assuming the same chips as in the HMC40). It's a tiny camera head that can be matched to the HMR10 for a low-cost, high-quality camera & recorder solution. Iris, focus & zoom remote-controlled bvia the HMR10.

HMR10 MSRP: $2650. HCK10 MSRP: $2,100.

12:51 Michael Bergeron, Strategic Technology Liaison for Panasonic.
P2 Partners program
AVCHD has achieved near-universal acceptance
DVCPRO-HD has achieved near-universal acceptance
Professional sports broadcasting requires the intraframe recording of P2
EVS is adding DVCPRO-HD to its native codec options, for such as the XT(2) server
AVC-Intra is supported by Apple, Avid, Grass Valley/Thomson, Quantel and Harris, and will be coming to Autodesk, Main Concept, Omneon, and Rhozet.
MTI Film has added AVC-I support to their Control Dailies product.
NL Tech is now on the list of worldwide P2 partners.
SeaChange is the second new major global P2 partner, with their FML200 end-to-end solid-state workflow products.
Rimage is the third new partner, offering a standalone archiving system for P2 to blu-ray discs
Final new global partner is Imagine Products, with P2 Log & ShotPut Pro, HD LOg, ProxyMill and TEP HD.
There are now 35 global P2 Partners.

12:56 Bob Harris
"Last year we introduced a breakthrough product for this industry, the AV-HS400A switcher. It has sold well and built quite an incredible reputation. Today we're pleased to introduce the HS450 HD/SD live switcher with 16 SD/HD-SDI inputs standard, and a dual-screen multiviewer function. 10-bit, 4:2:2 live-switching solution for mid-size studios or mobile productions. Built-in frame synchronizers for each input, 4 built-in upconverters, 4 HD-SDI outputs and 2 scalable DVI outputs. It can take existing input boards from the HS400, or the new dual-DVI input board available later this year. Users can view up to 10 images from different sources on each of two screens, so the one switcher can display 20 separate inputs on just two monitors. Available later this year."

AW-HE870 HD/SD Convertible Camera, 2/3" 3-CCD for $11,500. Would be the "perfect companion" for the switcher.

Before we wrap up, let's talk about 3-D. People are continuously looking for a way to make their viewing experience as realistic and compelling as possible. People are wondering: what's next? Look to the movies. Just about every top director and studio is creating 3-D experiences; a dozen 3-D films this year, dozens more next year. Monsters vs. Aliens, 28% of screens played the 3-D version, 72% were 2-D. But those 3-D screens accounted for 56% of the box office receipts. 3-D movies are grossing more than 2-D films because of higher ticket prices and longer theatrical runs.

New logo showing: Panasonic 3DHD.

"incredible sharpness, depth, in-focus, and the color was perfect"

"Panasonic will lead the way in 3D full HD technology." They're showing a picture of what looks like a twin-lens HPX170, and AVC-Ultra 3D recording, 3D blu-ray authoring, 3D blu-ray compression, 3D plasma monitors, 360d 3D image evaluation rooms, 3D blu-ray discs, 3D blu-ray players, and 3D TV for home.

They have a 3DHD theater next to the main booth.

1:06 p.m. Jim Wickizer again
Thanks and wrap-up. But wait -- watch this: Sunday, May 3rd, at 9 p.m. National Geographic is showing "Expedition Grizzly". Oooh, Kevin Railsback and I would want to shoot this. Casey tracks yellowstone grizzlies all through yellowstone. The footage is fantastic. Good heavens, his best friend is a grizzly named "brutus". He's petting it like a dog. He's 7' 8" tall! He's riding it like a horse, getting a grizzly kiss, sitting on it, dang, that's pretty darn cool. He says "do not try this at home!" Brutus' head is 56" around! He just had it stand up, and he's high-fiving it.

So, yeah, the footage is incredible, but the content is pretty awesome. Set the tivo.

Okay, that's it -- press conference is wrapped.

[AwakenedFilms]

Anything more...


J

[Jeff Anderson]

Now wait... You can't just say major p2 announcement and stop!

[Carlos Corral]

Cheaper P2 cards but they only have a life-span of 5 years? I don't know what to think of that....

[ChipG]

Good to hear the new P2 prices, calling my dealer first thing Monday to place a LARGE pre order.

I'm not worried about the 5 year lifespan because in 5 years 64 gigs will be what a 4 or 8 gig card is now, almost obsolete.

[DM_rider]

The new 16gb P2 card is looking realllly good. It would be great to have a pair of those for in the field use and quick dumping.

[thekreative]

pics?

[Barry_Green]

Okay, updates: the P2 cards that have been available, are still available -- the "A" series, which means the existing 64GB card, plus the 16GB and 32GB have been updated to "A" series. The main thing about "A" series was higher speeds than the "R" series and 100,000 read-write cycles. Those are the cards available now, and those will continue to be offered. They're based on SLC memory technology.

The "E" series will be sold side-by-side with the "A" series. They're even faster, and cheaper, but will have a shorter useful life. They can transfer at 1.2GBps, about 50% faster than the "A" series (and 50% faster than an SxS card, for that matter). We should be looking at 64GB cards transferring in about 7 minutes, and 16GB cards in about 1:45, assuming that what you're transferring *to* can keep up. The "E" series are based on MLC memory -- that's the kind of memory used in CompactFlash cards. Therefore, it's a lot less expensive. The "E" series are less than half to 1/3 as expensive as the premium-brand "A" series. The tradeoff is in useful life; by Panasonic's estimate you could fill up the card and empty it once a day for five years before you hit that limit. Now, that seems very conservative to me; the original cards were advertised for 100,00 read/write cycles, and that correlates well with SLC memory. So MLC memory is supposed to be good for 10,000 read/write cycles; by my estimate you should be able to fill up and empty a card once a day for 27 years before you hit that limit.

Pricing: seems to me that a base P2 card with no memory should cost about $200, and 16GB of memory is about $200. So the 16GB card = $400, and twice the memory gives you a 32GB card at $625, and then 32gb more = $400 more, which makes the 64GB card at about $1,000. So if that's the case, I don't know that we should be looking for cards to ever cost less than around $300 or so.

One major thing about MLC memory would be wear leveling; you don't want to continuously overwrite cells of memory and having them reach their limits, you want it to spread out the wear equally so the card lasts as long as possible. P2 does that; each P2 card has a microcomputer built-in that manages the data and handles write verification and file saving and it also handles wear leveling automatically. That's pretty cool, especially when you consider that a 16GB P2 card now costs less than Red's 16GB compactflash card.

[Carlos Corral]

Thanks for the info Barry. I'm so happy the E series came out but I'm a little worried about their life-spans. Even SDHC cards have higher life spans. Let's say we don't use the E series card everyday for 5 years. Maybe like once or twice a week. Does it still only last 5 years?

[Humanoid Typhoon]

How will that HMC40 stack up to the HMC150? It's about the $400-$600 less in comparison.

Thanks for the live updates Barry!

[Barry_Green]

No, it'll last for at least 15 years at that point. I'm asking that question too, and what I'm being told is that they're giving a conservative estimate of 5 years. The more you use it, the quicker it will wear out; the less you use it the longer it'll last. If you used it to fill it up and offload it every day, they say it should last at least five years. I think it'd more likely last 27 years, based on the MLC vs. SLC difference.

[Barry_Green]

How will that HMC40 stack up to the HMC150? It's about the $400-$600 less in comparison.

Thanks for the live updates Barry!

The 150 is CCD, the HMC40 is CMOS. The HMC40 will probably be sharper, but I'd expect the 150 to be (in general) the better camera, especially in low light performance. But, we'll see. It's smaller, denser-packed CMOS chips. And it's tiny -- it's like a DVC30. If you saw the DVC30 vs. the DVX100, that should be about the same comparison between the HMC40 and the HMC150. But it's very early; the HMC40 isn't supposed to be out for at least several more months.

[Humanoid Typhoon]

Thanks for that info Barry.

[David Jimerson]

Cheaper P2 cards but they only have a life-span of 5 years? I don't know what to think of that....

That's with it being used every single day of those five years, and well, that's just the guarantee.

The A-series cards with the longer life are still available.

[for_mlove]

So, my question is when can we get pre=orders in on these new cards? I'm assuming that as soon as they're out we'll be seeing a big back log and I need one or two new P2 cards by June!

[Barry_Green]

The E series is supposed to start shipping at the end of May. If you need some you'd better get on your dealers list immediately

[john deaver]

Do you guys know of a place online to see the press conference?

I could swear i saw it online last year.

thanks
john

BTW Thanks Berry for the play-by-play

[k2director]

Cheaper p2 cards is huge news. Huge. Very few people will care about a 5 year or so lifespan (and that's a conservative estimate). $1000 for very fast 64gb is going to open up p2 to so many other uses. Now smaller, more cost-conscious producers will be able to buy some of their own cards, hand them to a freelance cameraman, and then take the cards home at the end of the day. It also is far cheaper to handle shooting a full day on cards without doing a data offload, which has also been an Achilles Heel of p2.

I think this is the moment where p2 experiences a real breakthrough in acceptance. I think this will also help put Sony's xdcam disk to rest. If you shoot 5 hours of content on xdcam, you end up with 4 disks to be carried around and then manually loaded into an edit system, one disk at a time. You can shoot 5 hours of p2 via a pro Panasonic camera without stopping to put in new media, and transfer it all with a single button press in less than 45 minutes.

[dcloud]

by 5 years, you wouldve paid the card off already.
I wouldnt mind cheaper p2 cards with 3 years life span. :)

[Carlos Corral]

Yes, I guess it has its advantages. Maybe one of these E series cards will come free with a camera purchase soon since they are a lot cheaper. If the old 16GB series costs $800 and the new E Series 64GB card costs under $1000 and it comes with an HPX170 or HPX300, then sign me up on the Panasonic bandwagon.

[Mike Harvey]

Cheaper p2 cards is huge news. Huge. Very few people will care about a 5 year or so lifespan (and that's a conservative estimate). $1000 for very fast 64gb is going to open up p2 to so many other uses. Now smaller, more cost-conscious producers will be able to buy some of their own cards, hand them to a freelance cameraman, and then take the cards home at the end of the day. It also is far cheaper to handle shooting a full day on cards without doing a data offload, which has also been an Achilles Heel of p2.

I think this is the moment where p2 experiences a real breakthrough in acceptance. I think this will also help put Sony's xdcam disk to rest. If you shoot 5 hours of content on xdcam, you end up with 4 disks to be carried around and then manually loaded into an edit system, one disk at a time. You can shoot 5 hours of p2 via a pro Panasonic camera without stopping to put in new media, and transfer it all with a single button press in less than 45 minutes.


I agree. I have a hard time thinking people will care that it "only" lasts five years with daily use. Organizations that are actually using their cards daily... namely TV news stations... would have the budget for it anyways. I'm thinking that this new E series is going to help the HPX300 put a big dent in Sony EX series sales.

[Barry_Green]

Well, I know that I've been a P2 user since 2005, and I don't come anywhere close to filling up my cards every day. There will be many days when they're not used at all, and a few days where they'll fill up multiple times. I think this whole "5 year" thing is being conservative, probably to make a bigger distinction between the "A" and the "E" series.

And the "A" is still offered. For news organizations or major turnover users, paying 3x as much for a card that should last 10x as long makes good sense. For the small producer who's never going to likely ever encounter the lifespan limit of the "E" cards, a price slash of 55%-65% is very welcome indeed.

Also, you'll get plenty of warning if you're using a card that is anywhere near its end of useful lifespan. There will be a "run down card" indication in the viewfinder when you insert a card that's nearing its end of life; from what I understand it'll be announced long before the limit is reached so you can plan appropriately, but it's not like the card will just stop working right away. You'll probably still have hundreds of uses on it before it's truly hit its end of life.

And, second, there will be an update to the P2 formatting software that will show you the current status of the card. So there's no reason to be concerned, you'll know your status long before the card's ever anywhere near towards being used up.

[puredrifting]

Wow! I am blown away by this P2 announcement.

1. First of all, lets give credit where credit was due, the rumor mill was correct once again. Wow, first the HPX300, now this, I am going to have to start really paying attention to Panasonic rumors, if not other brands so much.

2. Think about what this means. I already own six P2 cards, two 16s and four 8s. For less than $2,000.00, I can acquire two 64s of the E series. I would then have 508 minutes of recording capacity at 720 24pN. 192 minutes of 1080! Wow, I knew the day would come when we could afford to shoot 1080 for everything. This does make the HPX300 much more appealing.

3. The five year thing is hilarious. I would be willing to bet that 90% of the users of this board would not use 5 years of daily usage in 50 years. Even me, I shoot perhaps 4-10 days per month, do the math. There should be NO concerns about lifespan of these cards. By Moores law, these cards will be antiques in about 3 years anyway, we should be shooting 4 or 5k onto holographic SDXC cards by then with average capacities in the TBs.

Great move Jan and Co, I think that this is a home run and bodes very well for the future of the P2 format and cameras. I just hope that they can make enough, a lot of users are going to come out of the woodwork to buy 64GB cards who never would have before.

Dan

[k2director]

By the way, thanks much for the detailed press conference report, Barry. You're well ahead of any of the news sites I follow...

[puredrifting]

Great reporting Barry. thank you also. Did they use my good side? ;-) Oh man, I hate being on that side of the camera, I kept telling them I have a face made for radio. I have not even seen it yet, hopefully I don't come off like too much of a dork.

Thanks,

Dan

[TimurCivan]

Also in 5 years i dont think im even going to be using P2 anymore once i get a Scarlet/Fushia/VCXFD-9000 whatever .......

New stuff is going to come out trust me....

[Barry_Green]

I don't know what the news sites are doing; I just sat there with a wireless card and spoke it as it happened.

New stuff does always come out, but... okay, let me put it this way -- nobody's even mentioned the most interesting snippet I saw there. Why are there faster cards? Sure, offload speed is great and all, offloading a 64GB card in 7 minutes would rock, and they're now 50% faster than the fastest SxS card, but is that all there is to it?

Did nobody notice the tiny mention of AVC-Ultra?

I think they plan on P2 being around for a while.

*and no, nobody will say a word on what AVC-Ultra is. It was one tiny picture at the bottom of one multi-picture slide, but that's what it said...

[puredrifting]

AVC Ultra? I have never even heard of it. Ultra HD, Super HD, yes, but...

D

[Barry_Green]

Right. That's what I'm talking about -- nobody seems to know anything. But if they're juicing up the performance of the P2 cards, and announcing a new format called "ultra", then... what can that portend? 4:4:4 recording? 1080/60P? Or <gasp> 4K or 3K or 2K or ??? I dunno, and nobody's talking, and I wonder if it was a mistake that slipped through the cracks. But I shall badger them mercilessly until they spill some good gossip (or blood, whichever comes first).

[TimurCivan]

wouldnt be surprised to see 2K 4K....

But it was mentioned in reference to the 3D stuff so it will need a safe potential of 200Mbps to record....

[DavidNJ]

Disappointed in the HMC40, however the P2 card news is just what the HPX300 needed. The owners and renters of existing P2 cards won't be happy.

Can someone get better info on the GH-1?

[Barry_Green]

Right, 3D stuff... hmmm. Well, 1080/60p doesn't really exist yet, but I've got a 1080/60p-capable 3D-capable HDTV right now. 60Hz, full frames, for left/right eye with the cable-connected glasses.

So yes, I'd say 200mbps is the minimum that we'd be looking at with "ultra", so it could do 60p. Oooh, but could that mean 720/120p is possible? heh.

Anyway, this is just random speculation, there's enough good announcements to keep track of.

I saw the "flash band" compensation in action. It's really pretty good. Makes it look like a CCD shot it, although I could just make out maybe one line here or there that looked different from how a CCD would have shot it. But overall, it's like 99% improved and looks like it'll go a long way towards eliminating one of the CMOS artifacts.

[mcgeedigital]

But I shall badger them mercilessly until they spill some good gossip (or blood, whichever comes first).

BADGER BADGER! :thumbup:

[Barry_Green]

BADGER BADGER! :thumbup:
http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/

[DavidNJ]

Right, 3D stuff... hmmm. Well, 1080/60p doesn't really exist yet, but I've got a 1080/60p-capable 3D-capable HDTV right now. 60Hz, full frames, for left/right eye with the cable-connected glasses.


JVC and Sanyo sell consumer camcorders that record 1080p60 today. There is a general lack of support though.

[Mike Harvey]

It seems Panasonic is nothing if not ambitious. I'm still hung up on the picture I'm getting from my HMC150 and AVCCam... good glass and this "AVC-Ultra" has the potential to make me faint. Could be that they're going after Sony's HDCam SR.

Also, this "Flashband Compensation"... am I to understand that by compensating for "flash issues", you're saying it basically compensates for the CMOS rolling shutter (sorry, I can be dense like that)? Suddenly I'm envisioning a "HPX250" that has the 300's chips in a 170's body with AVC-Intra100. :love4:

[Barry_Green]

Disappointed in the HMC40
Why? It's about 3x cooler than I was expecting it to be.


The owners and renters of existing P2 cards won't be happy.
Why not? I haven't talked to any P2 owners who are unhappy. The system just got a whole lot more affordable, and a 64gb card that used to be a pipe dream, just became reality for a lot of us.


Can someone get better info on the GH-1?
There won't be anything about a consumer still camera at the NAB show. This is for broadcast stuff, made by the broadcast division. So, while I'd love to get some time with a GH-1, I am pretty sure nobody here will know anything about it. This is all by Panasonic Broadcast and Television Systems Company, whereas the consumer division is staffed by entirely different people.

[Barry_Green]

Also, this "Flashband Compensation"... am I to understand that by compensating for "flash issues", you're saying it basically compensates for the CMOS rolling shutter (sorry, I can be dense like that)?
Well, no, but it does compensate for one manifestation of the rolling shutter. Rolling shutters cause wobble, skew, fluttering lines under fluorescents/HMIs/mercury vapor lights, and big bands of bright/dark when a flash goes off.

This new firmware compensates for the flash portion, and makes the camera's footage look a lot more like a CCD camera would have under those same circumstances. But it won't do anything about skew/wobble or stuff like that, that's all just part and parcel of dealing with a rolling shutter camera.

However, for the 300's main market (news/ENG etc), I bet the flash was far and away the most prevalent cmos issue that 300 shooters would encounter, and therefore this firmware update will be most welcome.

EDIT: aha, more info on the flashband compensation:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=342749&modelNo=Content04162009021155613&surfModel=Content04162009021155613

[DavidNJ]

Why? It's about 3x cooler than I was expecting it to be.


Doesn't it have 1/4" sensors and add on XLR? I was hoping for an HPX 200 with the HPX300 sensors and AVC Intra 100.




Why not? I haven't talked to any P2 owners who are unhappy. The system just got a whole lot more affordable, and a 64gb card that used to be a pipe dream, just became reality for a lot of us.

There are people with an investment in P2s and rental P2s that now have lost 60% of their value.



There won't be anything about a consumer still camera at the NAB show. This is for broadcast stuff, made by the broadcast division. So, while I'd love to get some time with a GH-1, I am pretty sure nobody here will know anything about it. This is all by Panasonic Broadcast and Television Systems Company, whereas the consumer division is staffed by entirely different people.In this sub-$10k class hybrid DSLRs are game changers.

[Barry_Green]

Doesn't it have 1/4" sensors and add on XLR? I was hoping for an HPX 200 with the HPX300 sensors and AVC Intra 100.
Ah. You were hoping for something entirely different from what it was, I see. I didn't know what to expect from an HMC40, I thought it'd be like the DVC30 but it's way more like the HMC150 than that, so I was pleasantly surprised.


There are people with an investment in P2s and rental P2s that now have lost 60% of their value.
Er... I guess. You're not a P2 user, I take it? I don't know anyone who values these cards at any sort of resale value, we buy them to use them. Lower prices means we can buy more.


In this sub-$10k class hybrid DSLRs are game changers.
Doesn't matter, they're not offered from the broadcast divisions, they're not sold to broadcasters, so they won't be at this show.

[Barry_Green]

Okay, lots more on the 3-D system, including that twin-lens HPX170-looking thing:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=342750&modelNo=Content04162009023429173&surfModel=Content04162009023429173

And -- look at the picture of that P2 Portable-looking device, where it says "AVC Ultra" -- that's about as much info as these folks are willing to give up! It's a tease. But maybe it's tied to 3D production?

[dcloud]

Doesn't it have 1/4" sensors and add on XLR? I was hoping for an HPX 200 with the HPX300 sensors and AVC Intra 100.
maybe soon.


In this sub-$10k class hybrid DSLRs are game changers.gimme a break. Maybe in 3-4 years.

[k2director]

Why not? I haven't talked to any P2 owners who are unhappy. The system just got a whole lot more affordable, and a 64gb card that used to be a pipe dream, just became reality for a lot of us.

I was about the pull the trigger on 5 64Gb cards, so I might have been a little upset! I'm obviously glad I decided to wait the extra few weeks till NAB came around. Of course, now I have another predicament. I'm getting a P2 camera now, but need cards to fill it with. But the new 64GBs won't be here until August (likely August 31, if I know Panasonic). So I might still have to pull the trigger on one or two of the old 64Gbs while I wait for the new batch to arrive. Not so excited about that...

Personally, I think Panasonic will quickly retire the A series cards (64/32GBs), once the R series starts shipping. I think Panasonic is saying those A series cards will be sold alongside of the new ones only so that A) customers of the recent 64Gb cards (shipping since only November) don't feel like they recently bought into an already-obsolete product, and B) customers who have to buy a 64GB card between now and bloody August also don't feel like they're buying an already-obsolete product.

But for all intents and purposes, I think that's what's happening. I can't imagine someone choosing to pay $2600 for a slower 64GB card with a 10+ year shelf life, when they could buy a much faster 64GB card for $1000 with a 5 year shelf life (again, conservative estimate on the shelf life).

[AwakenedFilms]

Great news, Great reporting. Thanks for the details, Barry. You are a trend-setter in information dissemination.


Jason

[Barry_Green]

Well, first of all, price drops happen with memory. That's what happens. It will continue to happen. Am I annoyed that I paid $100 for a 2GB SanDisk Ultra II card? Not really, even though I could buy a 32GB card for that same price now.

But anyway, the R series is already discontinuing, that was the series before the "A". The "A" is the new current top-end series, aimed at broadcasters and those who need the reusability.

You can see the same effect in SSDs, there are cheaper ones that are MLC and there are the top-performing and much-more-expensive drives that are SLC. You'd never use an MLC drive in a server application, but SLC would be appropriate there. So will they sell more MLC P2 cards than SLC? I would bet that far more of their customers will buy MLC, yes. But the big customers, the broadcasters, will probably still buy SLC.


I can't imagine someone choosing to pay $2600 for a slower 64GB card with a 10+ year shelf life, when they could buy a much faster 64GB card for $1000 with a 5 year shelf life
But -- if you were the type of user who might actually use the card enough to see it reach the end of its life, then the choice is an A series card that costs 2.6x as much and lasts 10x as long (assuming MLC=10,000 rewrites, and SLC=100,000 rewrites). That's a no-brainer for buying the A-series card, right there.

But I think the vast majority of us will be plenty well served with the MLC-based "E" series.

[Barry_Green]

Of course, now I have another predicament. I'm getting a P2 camera now, but need cards to fill it with. But the new 64GBs won't be here until August (likely August 31, if I know Panasonic). So I might still have to pull the trigger on one or two of the old 64Gbs while I wait for the new batch to arrive. Not so excited about that...
There's going to be a program for people in that predicament. Write to Jan and tell her what you're up against, she might be able to help you out. I don't know all the details but they said there would be some sort of rebate given out for HPX300 buyers who would buy the "E" series cards but can't wait until August to get their cards so they have to buy "A" series now...

[dregenthal]

There's going to be a program for people in that predicament. Write to Jan and tell her what you're up against, she might be able to help you out. I don't know all the details but they said there would be some sort of rebate given out for HPX300 buyers who would buy the "E" series cards but can't wait until August to get their cards so they have to buy "A" series now...

While this (my) comment will probably inspire another round of "well, that ain't gonna happen" . . .

I would think a reasonable solution would be for there to be some accomodation in regard to the present price structure of the existing P2's. Yeah, they'll last longer . . . yadda yadda, but and while it may create a large pool of "customers in waitning" for the new cards, I would predict that not taking a look at some level of price reduction will prevent them from "flying off the shelves."

I hope I don't have to say, this is not intended as a criticism or inditement but just my thinking on the issue.

[k2director]

There's going to be a program for people in that predicament. Write to Jan and tell her what you're up against, she might be able to help you out. I don't know all the details but they said there would be some sort of rebate given out for HPX300 buyers who would buy the "E" series cards but can't wait until August to get their cards so they have to buy "A" series now...

Whoops, I meant the new E series when i said R series in my previous message. And don't get me wrong....I'm not complaining about these new price drops, I'm thrilled with them for my own wallet's sake, and also thrilled because I think these new prices will breathe some fresh life into the P2 format, get P2 cards in many more hands, and show that P2 does have the ability to change and improve with the times. (Yes, memory prices always do fall, but until today, it had looked like Panasonic had forgotten that rule, since 32GB cards stayed at about the same price point for 16 or so months, while the prices for every other memory format plunged).

Anyway, that's ancient history now. I'm glad to see Panasonic respond so decisively to the former problem of high P2 price points. I think this new move will pay off in spades. I'm excited for Panasonic as much as myself.

And thanks much for the tip about some kind of rebate program for those that might have to buy P2 cards now, but really want the E Series cards. I hope that's real, and applies to 64Gb E cards especially. I'll post what I find out..

[Sumfun]

I wonder if Sony will lower SxS prices now.

[ecking]

Thanks for the info Barry. I'm so happy the E series came out but I'm a little worried about their life-spans. Even SDHC cards have higher life spans. Let's say we don't use the E series card everyday for 5 years. Maybe like once or twice a week. Does it still only last 5 years?

I wouldn't worry too much about how long it'll last, Panasonic is probably just putting that time estimate on it for two reasons:

a) To make those who got the slower older cards not feel like they've been taken for a ride
b) To make the clients that would still pony up for the expensive ones buy them

Ask yourself what compact flash cards have you seen die from regular use? Barry's 27 year estimate makes way more sense. And to be honest it's 2009, in 2014 I'm sure we'll have something else better to use.

[Mike Harvey]

Thanks for the info Barry. I'm so happy the E series came out but I'm a little worried about their life-spans. Even SDHC cards have higher life spans. Let's say we don't use the E series card everyday for 5 years. Maybe like once or twice a week. Does it still only last 5 years?

Me thinks this is based on number of uses. The cards can be used so many times before they wear out (for lack of a better term). If you use it once or twice a day, everyday, for five years... you roughly hit that number of uses.

Use it once or twice a week instead of once or twice a day, it'll last you 35 years. More or less. :)

[Tom 4]

I wouldn't worry too much about how long it'll last, Panasonic is probably just putting that time estimate on it for two reasons:
a) To make those who got the slower older cards not feel like they've been taken for a ride
b) To make the clients that would still pony up for the expensive ones buy them
.

I think your on the money ecking , the A series card price is Ridiculous, "A cynic would say this this proposed new E series card is just a re badged A series with time clocked firmware built-in , and for P2 to compete with Sony's XDacm they have to make it more attractive to more users/buyers, a simple marketing strategy."
In fairness to those who purchased the A series 64/32gig cards pana should offer a trade in/up deal.
Now, if they can do this with the P2 cards why can't they also provide a cheaper cut down P2 Card reader also with a built-in time limited usage?.

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

[ChipG]

Barry, would you ask them what the ETA is on the 128 gig P2 E cards.

Thanks!

[ecking]

Now, if they can do this with the P2 cards why can't they also provide a cheaper cut down P2 Card reader also with a built-in time limited usage?.

Agreed. But it doesn't have to have limited time usage. Why can't panasonic put out a single slot reader for p2 like this:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/526430-REG/Sony_SBAC_US10_SBAC_US10_SxS_Memory_Card.html
Now that these E series cards are cheaper and more accessible we need a cheaper and more accessible way of offloading them from panasonic that isn't through the camera. They've got 5 slot usb reader for like 2 grand, why not a single slot one? Even if it was usb only(which I'd rather frankly), I've used usb out on the hvx to offload to my macbook plenty of times.

[TimurCivan]

a 1 slot usb reader is a P2 store.....

[k2director]

Some specifics of AVC Ultra here...

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1613636#post1613636

[PhantomVideo]

can a P2 Store Read 64gb cards?

[Barry_Green]

The P2 Store has no reason to be used with a 64GB card. The card is bigger than the P2 Store's drive.

A P2 Store doesn't really make much sense with anything larger than 8GB (or maybe 16GB) cards.

[ecking]

a 1 slot usb reader is a P2 store.....

Come on Timur you know what I meant, I even linked to it!

[Luis Caffesse]

Okay, lots more on the 3-D system, including that twin-lens HPX170-looking thing:
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=342750&modelNo=Content04162009023429173&surfModel=Content04162009023429173


Yes, the P2 news is great ... but that 3D prototype is making me drool - it's about time someone stepped up the development of an efficient 3D production camera.
As ridiculous as it was - I was disheartened years ago when Canon killed off their 3D lens for the Xl1.
:)

(thanks for the great coverage, Barry. Much appreciated)

[mikkowilson]

Oh man, I'm almost too excited to sleep.

My hotel is only half a block from the convention center. Doors open in 8 hours. It's NAB time!


- Mikko

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

The HMC40 sounded interesting, until I read about its minuscule 1/4.1" sensor! It's a big NO NO from me. I was so excited when I read the news about it because the Panasonic guys SPECIFICALLY said in the press conference something about a cheaper hybrid camera indies were dreaming off. This mentality was EXACTLY what I have been burbling about for months now on my blog and elsewhere!

But 1/4.1" sensors and no solid 24 mbps recording again? Even the consumer Canon HF-S10 does better than this $3000 camera in these domains.

I am not buying. And I was in the market for a new camera to replace my HV20. If it had 1/2.0" sensor and solid 24 mbps recording (no VBR), I would have already pre-order it.

[dcloud]

its 3mos so it could perform well although im not sure how well.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

I am not just interested in low light and less noise, but I am mostly interested in background blur. So no matter if they put 100 of these 1/4.1" sensors in there, I would still need to zoom in to 90% to get some background blur. With my HV20 I need to zoom at around 75% under normal conditions to start getting some. So I just wanted to upgrade to something that's 1/2.0" and so I would "only" need to zoom it at around 50%. Of course these numbers I am mentioning here are just approximations, but the point remains, 1/4.1" is just not good enough for me. It simply doesn't give me the result I want. And I am not even talking about massive background blurs, or crazy lenses and what not. Just little something to keep me shut up. But no... Panasonic had to go ultra cheap here. :(

[dcloud]

I see your point. I guess its enough for event coverage (or 35mm adapters)

I see potential in it though albeit the shortcomings.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

Yeah, for events it's just fine. If I was doing weddings and corporate stuff I would definitely get this camera, no questions asked. But for real filmmaking and the abstract atsy things I try to do (well, I try), this ain't what I need. I need a bigger sensor first and foremost.

[steadicamsteel]

Hi Barry,

Excellent news feed by the way. Can you dig a little deeper to your comment on:

Coming soon: a new customized studio configuration under $10,000.

I'm asking this specifically as I'm about to put together a 4 Camera Channel HD Vision Mix System, using the aformentioned Panasonic Vision Mixer and I was looking at 4 HPX-301's.

Any more information would be appreciated.

Regards

Rich

[Jan_Crittenden]

There's going to be a program for people in that predicament. Write to Jan and tell her what you're up against, she might be able to help you out. I don't know all the details but they said there would be some sort of rebate given out for HPX300 buyers who would buy the "E" series cards but can't wait until August to get their cards so they have to buy "A" series now...

There is a rebate program for folks that want to buy an AG-HPX300 and don't want to wait for the Economy cards. It is a short term program in that we will offer a rebate on the purchase of one of the A or R series cards when purchased with an AG-HPX300, and this is a US only program.

Best,

Jan

[Jan_Crittenden]

Coming soon: a new customized studio configuration under $10,000.

I'm asking this specifically as I'm about to put together a 4 Camera Channel HD Vision Mix System, using the aformentioned Panasonic Vision Mixer and I was looking at 4 HPX-301's.



This Camera Adapter, Base Station and Remote will come on the market toward the end of the year. We have a sample in the booth but it is still a product under development. This is the second time we have seen it and it looks different this time as well. So the cost of cable will be additional. If you ask specific questions, I can possibly answer.

Best,

Jan

[puredrifting]

Eugenia:

You sound like a candidate for an EOS 5D MKII. Thought about it? Major hassle to work with but would get you that shallow depth of field that you crave and if you are doing artsy things on your own, you may be able to live with the compromises. I don't see any sub $10k cameras having a FF sensor any time soon. Even 1/2" sensors don't really have the capacity for shallow depth of field with a reasonable FOV.

Dan

[John Caballero]

Eugenia, check out the Panasonic GH1. Although it won't have 24 mbps it looks mighty promising. It has basically the specs of the Panasonic HDC HS300 with a much bigger sensor giving you a nice "background blur" look with the big micro 4/3 sensor.

[kecorcoran]

There is a rebate program for folks that want to buy an AG-HPX300 and don't want to wait for the Economy cards. It is a short term program in that we will offer a rebate on the purchase of one of the A or R series cards when purchased with an AG-HPX300, and this is a US only program.

Best,

Jan

Jan,
Is there anything similar for potential HPX170 buyers who can't wait for the Economy cards?

And, will the introduction of the new cards impact the capacity of the card included in the HPX170 box? (i.e, will we start to see 32's instead of 16's?)

Thanks,
Kevin

[dregenthal]

There is a rebate program for folks that want to buy an AG-HPX300 and don't want to wait for the Economy cards. It is a short term program in that we will offer a rebate on the purchase of one of the A or R series cards when purchased with an AG-HPX300, and this is a US only program.

Best,

Jan

Jan- Great idea, thanks for that info.

I may have missed this somewhere else, and if so I apologize, but I wanted to ask: Were you able to put together that package for the HPX300 with the AB Hydron batteries & charger?

Thanks again--have a sucsessful show.

David

[TimTyler]

...we will offer a rebate on the purchase of one of the A or R series cards when purchased with an AG-HPX300...


I guess it sucks to be me.

I paid for two 32GB A's, one 64GB A, and an HPX300 less than a month ago. I would have rented the cards had Panasonic not played these waiting games.

[David Saraceno]

I guess it sucks to be me.

I paid for two 32GB A's, one 64GB A, and an HPX300 less than a month ago. I would have rented the cards had Panasonic not played these waiting games.

Sorry to hear this, but why would you buy a month before NAB?

Why not rent until NAB?

[Carlos Corral]

Jan,
Is there anything similar for potential HPX170 buyers who can't wait for the Economy cards?

And, will the introduction of the new cards impact the capacity of the card included in the HPX170 box? (i.e, will we start to see 32's instead of 16's?)

Thanks,
Kevin

I'm curious about this myself. :beer:

[scapsinger]

There are people with an investment in P2s and rental P2s that now have lost 60% of their value.

"In other news this morning, wagon wheel repairmen are finding themselves unemployed as fewer and fewer wagons are manufactured in this declining market. More tonight at 11. Up next...where have all the cowboys gone? And a crazy squirrel on water skis that you JUST have to see to believe."

Oh, and whoever posted the badger link...thanks, and here I thought I was gonna get something done today. Instead, I'm waiting on the edge of my seat to see how this badger film is going to end. It's taking forever....not a very good plot, either...needs more character development...

[ecking]

But 1/4.1" sensors and no solid 24 mbps recording again? Even the consumer Canon HF-S10 does better than this $3000 camera in these domains.

I am not buying. And I was in the market for a new camera to replace my HV20. If it had 1/2.0" sensor and solid 24 mbps recording (no VBR), I would have already pre-order it.

The consumer Canons your talking about are indeed VBR, they are "up to" 24mbs. Panasonic just let's you know that while canon does not. Panasonic and Sony were the ones to create AVCHD, not Canon and they've been following the spec that P&S have laid out. Based on my conclusions using both the canons and the hmc150 I've come to realize that AVC as a spec is probably VBR at any rate above 20mbs. But even in a theoretical world where what you say is the true the difference between 21vbr and 24mbs locked would be so nominal that your complaints would make no sense, your talking about 3mbs.

Also the 1/4" sensors shouldn't surprise you, when in the past 5 years has panasonic put out anything non 3 chip? Did you expect 3 1/2" sensors? Even the EX1 has to have those giant heat vents to cool 3 1/2" sensors down. Sensors are only getting as large as they are in the single bayer pattern configuration, something that has not really had wide acceptance for broadcast and pro video yet in much more than red and a few other cameras. The hmc40 more than makes sense for it's intended market(panasonic even lists who that is), sounds like you want a vdslr.

[steadicamsteel]

This Camera Adapter, Base Station and Remote will come on the market toward the end of the year. We have a sample in the booth but it is still a product under development. This is the second time we have seen it and it looks different this time as well. So the cost of cable will be additional. If you ask specific questions, I can possibly answer.

Best,

Jan

Hi Jan,

Can I ask, what kind of Cable will the system be based upon? Is it Triax, Fibre Optic, Multipin or A.N.OTHER?

What will it have head to base unit functionality. (i.e RETURNS, GENLOCKS, TC, COMMS, TALLY's etc etc etc)

Thanks

Rich Steel

[TimTyler]

Why not rent until NAB?

NAB offers no promises.

I mean - Even the 64 E's are months away and I'm glad I've got 128GB of P2 storage I can work with now because I'm using it, but I need Panasonic to convince me I wasn't suckered.

Sure, maybe my 64GB 'A' card will work just fine after five years, but it will have devalued so much by then that it will not matter.

Buying P2 media should not be like playing the stock market.

[Eugenia Loli-Queru]

>You sound like a candidate for an EOS 5D MKII. Thought about it?

Every day. But I need 24p support in it, and shutter speed support too. Without these two additional features, it's also a deal breaker. I hear rumors that there will be a new firmware about it though, so if that happens, that's the camera I will be getting, as my husband already owns many Canon lenses from his 10D and 5D Mark-I days.

>Eugenia, check out the Panasonic GH1.

No, I am afraid it doesn't do what I need. It only does 24p at 1080p, and only at 17 mbps, which is too low for the quality I am after. Plus, the videos I have seen from it so far are overly contrasty.

>The consumer Canons your talking about are indeed VBR

All the discussions I've seen about it, including a 50,000 views thread on another forum, no one mentioned that, so I am not sure this is true.

>Did you expect 3 1/2" sensors?

I was expecting a single 1/2.0". I don't care about 3 of them. I just want a big sensor.

>sounds like you want a vdslr.

Not without reasonable frame rate support (23.976 instead of 24.00, and 29.97 instead of 30 -- I really want exact frame rates otherwise I get resampling ghosting on Vegas if I export in IVTC or NTSC), exposure compensation/locking, manual white balance, cine-gamma support, and also shutter speed support. There is none that does all that, and that's all rudimentary support! They either do half of the deal, or they don't do any of that. If Canon fixes my problems with the 5D though, I'd go with that, yeah. Not to mention that h.264 in MOV/MP4 is unbearably slow on Vegas and requires proxy files. AVCHD is not slow on a modern machine, because Vegas is optimized for it.

This is why I am rooting mostly for a hybrid consumer-prosumer Canon camera with half inch sensors. Kind of like this Panasonic one, but with bigger sensors and faster lens.

[RightMind]

is there any problem using both types of p2 cards in camera at the same time?

[puredrifting]

No problem, the new E cards are P2 spec, not P2 limited spec, meaning that functionally, they are identical to the old cards except faster and with a shorter life.

Dan

[dregenthal]

NAB offers no promises.

I mean - Even the 64 E's are months away and I'm glad I've got 128GB of P2 storage I can work with now because I'm using it, but I need Panasonic to convince me I wasn't suckered.

Sure, maybe my 64GB 'A' card will work just fine after five years, but it will have devalued so much by then that it will not matter.

Buying P2 media should not be like playing the stock market.

"Even the 64 E's are months away and I'm glad I've got 128GB of P2 storage I can work with now because I'm using it" Sounds to me like you made a good decision. I guess I could cry about what I paid for the 4's when they first came out but I got the use out of them, making it worthwhile.

Honestly, as long as you didn't buy them to video your neighbors barbeque (as opposed to actually making money), I don't think you should give it another thought. It's a "mind thing" my friend -- so don't get into your own head. It's not Panasonic's job to convince you (or any of us) of anything. They're fulfilling their role by offering an array of products from which to choose.

If it makes you feel a little better . . . I need more cards now and will probably make the same decision as you did, except that I will do so with the knowledge that if I wait I could save money (which won't offset what I'll make having the more expensive and available ones in hand).

Best.

D.

[Jason Adams]

here is the press conference video:

http://www.panasonic.com/promos/nab/2009/

[bikefilms]

jason.adams,

THANK YOU. This press page was just what I was looking for.

-Andrew

[Nic]

The new E series card couldnt have come at a better time for me over here in South Africa. I was about to buy a 16gb card at approx $1625 today (best price I could get here) and thought before I do it, let me Google P2 once more.

Also confirmed that I did the right thing when I bought my HPX174. What a great camera.

[David Saraceno]

Kinda of kills a used market for E series cards, doesn't it?

[AwakenedFilms]

Not really, David. I believe there is a counter function that will tell exactly how much 'life' a card has left.


J

[timbook2]

The 150 is CCD, the HMC40 is CMOS. The HMC40 will probably be sharper, but I'd expect the 150 to be (in general) the better camera, especially in low light performance. But, we'll see. It's smaller, denser-packed CMOS chips. And it's tiny -- it's like a DVC30. If you saw the DVC30 vs. the DVX100, that should be about the same comparison between the HMC40 and the HMC150. But it's very early; the HMC40 isn't supposed to be out for at least several more months.

Could the HMC40 be the answer to JVC´s HM100 ? sounds like they have about the same size? I wonder if Canon comes up with one in this size...

[ChipG]

Not really, David. I believe there is a counter function that will tell exactly how much 'life' a card has left.


J

You'll see people start to take pictures of a screen shot of the life / cycle meter like they do for the hvx hour meter when they advertise them for sale.

I'd never use 10% of a five year card because I'm going to buy several to avoid downloading in the filed. I'd have no fear of buying them used with 25% or less life left but I'll bet we won't see those on the used market for 3+ years.

How many people here have 1825 hours on thier hvx? I'll bet not many but thats how long this card is guaranteed for. I have 450 hours on mine in 2+ years so it would take me 8.1 years to wear out a $998 64 gig card. I can assure you I'll have a 1TB card before that time comes.

[Noel Evans]

Hmm, well after just dropping a bundle on a 64gb, initially I thought I would be a little frustrated at a major 64gb price drop, which, whilst this is a diff. type of 64gb p2, is essentially the same thing.

Having the 64gb has helped me demo longer record times and pick up a few clients along the way so getting it sooner rather than later was the best thing to do. And the new 64's arent here until August - no way I could wait that long or rent that long. Pretty much my thought process when I saw the announcement.

I never buy until I have a need.

[bikefilms]

Since the internals are different, I have to hope that the new E-Series P2 cards will allow us to use off-the-shelf PCMCIA card readers.

That would be economical.

-Andrew

[puredrifting]

Andrew:

The new E series cards are functionally identical to the existing P2 cards other than speed and longevity so I seriously doubt that off the shelf PCMCIA will work any better than they do with the existing cards.

Isn't there a PC desktop solution that some are using from Addonics? Or are you on a Mac?

Dan

[Kenny_G]

We were ripped-off all the time and most of us were happy, and finally we are gladd that there is a significant price drop comming. They had to find a name for it so it became the "E"-type card - whatever.
IMO it is the SOS with a new name to keep those who paid a fortune for P2 at ease.
I wonder why some of us are so willing to believe whatever Pana is telling us?
Anyway, Iam happy that reason has won from "greed".

[bikefilms]

Hey Dan,

I am on a Mac, and holding out hope for more P2 solutions.

It would be great to buy a "slim line" card reader for P2. Maybe we can ask Steve Jobs to replace the disc slot for a P2 slot in Apples external Super Drive.

-Andrew

[Mike Harvey]

We were ripped-off all the time and most of us were happy, and finally we are gladd that there is a significant price drop comming. They had to find a name for it so it became the "E"-type card - whatever.
IMO it is the SOS with a new name to keep those who paid a fortune for P2 at ease.
I wonder why some of us are so willing to believe whatever Pana is telling us?
Anyway, Iam happy that reason has won from "greed".

Define "ripped-off".

Somewhere else it was partly explained why this newer type of card was cheaper... having to do with maturing technology and the fact it has a much shorter shelf life. The fact that you can buy a Focus for $15k doesn't mean that $30k Mustang is a rip off.

You do not sell an item based on what it costs to produce, you sell it based on what the market will bear. No one put a gun to your head and forced you to buy into the P2 workflow. You knew the costs before you bought into it, and bought into it anyways. The fact that they say they are going to be able to offer cheaper versions four months down the road doesn't mean they were ripping you off when you bought into P2 however many months or years ago. If you don't like it, there are other formats you can choose. And for the record, I don't own any P2 gear. It was originally designed for the broadcast/news organization market, and for cameras costing north of $20k. I decided it wasn't worth the cost to me. You could have chosen to do the same. Please don't blame Panasonic because you didn't.

Remember, Panasonic exists to make money for their shareholders, not provide you with cheap stuff.

[puredrifting]

"We were ripped-off all the time and most of us were happy..."

We can say it again and again, P2 is made for professionals, not hobbyists. For Pros, P2 MAKES you money, For hobbyists, it costs you money so buy a 150. I just pre-ordered two of the new 64GB cards, they are going to make me so much money. Don't you charge your clients for card rentals? The $2,000.00 I spend will pay me back five or ten fold in a couple of years.

This board cracks me up. How about when the HVX200 was introduced, I was so freaking stoked to be buying a $5,000.00 camera that shared the same codec and VFR as the $70,000.00 Varicam I was renting at the time and shot to a new, amazingly cool format called P2 that allowed us to dump our freaking $25,000.00 lame AJ-HD1200 DVC ProHD deck and expensive $140.00 per tape 126 DVC ProHD tapes? That's more like the reality. P2 was and is a Godsend for me, it changed the entire way I work and saved me hundreds of thousands of dollars of camera rentals, HD decks, new heads, downtime, troubleshooting.

I did some calculations and my original HVX200 made me over $28,000.00 in camera rental profits in two and half years.

Yeah, P2 is a total ripoff.

Dan.

[mcgeedigital]

Out of the park, Dan.

[mico]

Thats if you believe that P2 cards were expensive because of R&D an all those other reasons that were given for the high cost. Especially for the HVx200 which never needed that kind of card as it couldn't resolve that much more resolution than a SD camera.

Obviously some people believed the reasoning to be false and believe it was simply price gouging because there was no other alternative. Yes it made you money but your profit margin was lowered because the cards were so expensive.

Panasonic had to do something and these new cards are welcomed because long record times and cheap media is a reality and they have been too far behind.

[Sneakle]

I was about the pull the trigger on 5 64Gb cards, so I might have been a little upset! I'm obviously glad I decided to wait the extra few weeks till NAB came around. Of course, now I have another predicament. I'm getting a P2 camera now, but need cards to fill it with. But the new 64GBs won't be here until August (likely August 31, if I know Panasonic). So I might still have to pull the trigger on one or two of the old 64Gbs while I wait for the new batch to arrive. Not so excited about that...

Personally, I think Panasonic will quickly retire the A series cards (64/32GBs), once the R series starts shipping. I think Panasonic is saying those A series cards will be sold alongside of the new ones only so that A) customers of the recent 64Gb cards (shipping since only November) don't feel like they recently bought into an already-obsolete product, and B) customers who have to buy a 64GB card between now and bloody August also don't feel like they're buying an already-obsolete product.

But for all intents and purposes, I think that's what's happening. I can't imagine someone choosing to pay $2600 for a slower 64GB card with a 10+ year shelf life, when they could buy a much faster 64GB card for $1000 with a 5 year shelf life (again, conservative estimate on the shelf life).

bingo

[Tom 4]

Let's face it, it's simply bussiness, Panasonic have just responded to the Market telling them that the cost of the P2 media is Just TOO HIGH, and sales are being lost to the Sony product range.
Didn't I read some time ago that they did not want to use cheap media cards inside the P2 case because the quality of P2 cards was Paramount, Hmmmm, we call this a "back flip" downunder.

Still, I will not need anymore cards for some time as I have purchased the more expensive A series to fill my five slots, plus with the economic crisis biting, budgets will be cut for some time to come I believe.

cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

[puredrifting]

Tom:

What is that card reader in your sig sitting on top of your G5/Mac Pro?

Dan

[AwakenedFilms]

That's Tom's DIY reader. slick stuff! I saved the plans to my HDD months ago, but have not had a chance to build it yet.


J

[randy09660]

that's of daily use, if you only use them a few times a week it could be 10 years!

[Tom 4]

Tom:
What is that card reader in your sig sitting on top of your G5/Mac Pro?
Dan

Hi dan,
That's My "Amtron" single slot P2 card reader connected to the Macpro 3gig via a PCIe to PCI adapter card.
Works great 99% of the time just like a Duel Adapter, about 2gig a min transfer, Problem with testing is that Apple keep changing the goal posts by altering their kext versions in up-grades, now 10.5.6 . fast expresscard connection is the flavour currently in Mac's OS Leopard so old PCMCIA (PC Cards) are left in the dust.
That's why I believe Pana went to USB and FW connections , with the latest pana reader PCD35 being a PCIe to PC connected box of trix.
On windows it's just so easy to connect a reader as the Amtron and your OK and away with P2, but with Current Mac it can be an expensive nightmare.

( I have not released the kexts as I believe 99% is not good enough)

If you know of any out of work "Mac driver writers" just let me know, try learning xcode tools and you'll know what I mean.

Barry Greens work around of using a windows lappy or tower connected to the Mac via ethernet gigabit is a good/cheap alternative, only hassel is that you use more office space and more power to achieve a very simple task.

Now that Pana have cut the P2 cards cost I suspect it would make sense to cut their P2 reader range accordingly that would make Pana "King of the castle".

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

[strangways]

I totally understand the SLC versus MLC memory.

I just bought a 32gb USB flash drive. It does up to 32-35MB/s (read), 8-15MB/s (write)
I could have purchased, from the same company, a "turbo" 4gb drive that does up to 35MB/s (read), 30MB/s (write) for $10 MORE.

Yup, slightly faster reading, twice as fast writing, 1/8th the space for $10 more.

Panasonic is not ripping you off, they are simply offering different flash memory technologies at different prices, because that's what it costs to make them.

[ullanta]

Any reports on the gracefulness of the E-series failure when it happens?

[Sumfun]

I totally understand the SLC versus MLC memory.

I just bought a 32gb USB flash drive. It does up to 32-35MB/s (read), 8-15MB/s (write)
I could have purchased, from the same company, a "turbo" 4gb drive that does up to 35MB/s (read), 30MB/s (write) for $10 MORE.

Yup, slightly faster reading, twice as fast writing, 1/8th the space for $10 more.

Panasonic is not ripping you off, they are simply offering different flash memory technologies at different prices, because that's what it costs to make them.

But wait. The E series is faster AND it costs less.

[randy09660]

So, my question is when can we get pre=orders in on these new cards? I'm assuming that as soon as they're out we'll be seeing a big back log and I need one or two new P2 cards by June!
Don't forget there's another company making both kinds of P2 cards, Fuji Film. So hopefully they wont be too back ordered! :)

[TimurCivan]

im fairly certain it wont fail. Panasonic wouldnt sell a "professional" card if there was a shot in hell of it failing.

Its just that CF solid state memory ( the kind in the new cards) has a shorter life span.

[dregenthal]

Any reports on the gracefulness of the E-series failure when it happens?

Check back with me in 2014, I'll let you know.

Oh wait, I'm only going to use mine on Tuesdays and Fridays . . .

Probably something akin to a plane crash?

(humor).

[timbook2]

its obvious that cheaper cards have a maybe shorter lifespan. I wonder if the cards used in XDCAM or AVCHD cameras even give you a life expectancy or load/unload cycle-number. I am sure the new E cards will work as well as those other cards. Unfortunately I just spent on another 16 gb card...oh well....
Anyway: thanks for this "live" coverage from NAB !!! much better and nicely condensed than what I get from the pana website.

[Tom 4]

its obvious that cheaper cards have a maybe shorter lifespan. I wonder if the cards used in XDCAM or AVCHD cameras even give you a life expectancy or load/unload cycle-number. I am sure the new E cards will work as well as those other cards. Unfortunately I just spent on another 16 gb card...oh well....
Anyway: thanks for this "live" coverage from NAB !!! much better and nicely condensed than what I get from the pana website.

If Pana ever get the P2 cards to the dollar per gig that Sony has with a XDcam disc, then it's sionara to Sony...

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

[ChipG]

If Pana ever get the P2 cards to the dollar per gig that Sony has with a XDcam disc, then it's sionara to Sony...

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

I just did that math in another thread. Luis pointed out that a 4 gig P2 card was $1700 5 years ago when introduced. They have since increased in size by 16 times while the price has been cut in half.

Going off this history in 5 years we will have a 1TB P2 card for $499, that's 50% cheaper than sony's dollar per gig XDcam disk.

[dantewaters]

"We were ripped-off all the time and most of us were happy..."

We can say it again and again, P2 is made for professionals, not hobbyists. For Pros, P2 MAKES you money, For hobbyists, it costs you money so buy a 150. I just pre-ordered two of the new 64GB cards, they are going to make me so much money. Don't you charge your clients for card rentals? The $2,000.00 I spend will pay me back five or ten fold in a couple of years.

This board cracks me up. How about when the HVX200 was introduced, I was so freaking stoked to be buying a $5,000.00 camera that shared the same codec and VFR as the $70,000.00 Varicam I was renting at the time and shot to a new, amazingly cool format called P2 that allowed us to dump our freaking $25,000.00 lame AJ-HD1200 DVC ProHD deck and expensive $140.00 per tape 126 DVC ProHD tapes? That's more like the reality. P2 was and is a Godsend for me, it changed the entire way I work and saved me hundreds of thousands of dollars of camera rentals, HD decks, new heads, downtime, troubleshooting.

I did some calculations and my original HVX200 made me over $28,000.00 in camera rental profits in two and half years.

Yeah, P2 is a total ripoff.

Dan.


Well said man well said... I just need to get my butt out there now and roll over some good profits.

[Tom 4]

I just did that math in another thread. Luis pointed out that a 4 gig P2 card was $1700 5 years ago when introduced. They have since increased in size by 16 times while the price has been cut in half.

Going off this history in 5 years we will have a 1TB P2 card for $499, that's 50% cheaper than sony's dollar per gig XDcam disk.

Don't hold your breath for that to happen Chip ... I suspect P2 will evolve into some future/faster media format connection prior to that happening.
And. Sony will no doubt have evolved XDcam into a simmillar solid state (broadcast) format if it can get to that level/quality of production.
As long as both companies advance in their R&D and prices become more affordable, we will all win.......

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)

[ChipG]

I hear ya Tom, we'll be shootng on 4k palmcorders to micro sdxc cards by then.

[timbook2]

I hear ya Tom, we'll be shootng on 4k palmcorders to micro sdxc cards by then.

ya ya with 36x24 mm CCD chips, removable lens and a DOF of 2 millimeters
:Drogar-Love(DBG):

[ChipG]

If anyone makes it by the Panasonic P2 booth can you ask them what the ETA is for a 128 gig E series P2 card.

Thanks!

[manglerBMX]

anyone heard of any more details on the hmc40? such as filter ring thread size?

[mcgeedigital]

Thats if you believe that P2 cards were expensive because of R&D an all those other reasons that were given for the high cost.


If you don't believe that, then I don't know what color the sky is in YOUR world. :huh:

[Tom 4]

If anyone makes it by the Panasonic P2 booth can you ask them what the ETA is for a 128 gig E series P2 card.

Thanks!

HELL chip, just demand a 1TB card by year end ! ... and at a lesser cost than the E series (Explosive/Economy/Elite/Endless/Euphoric/Etc) card.

Phew...
Tom K

[gkb444]

which companies are doing pre-orders already on new p2 cards? I was going to buy some this week and luckily checked here first. It's like I forgot NAB was going on.

[Barry_Green]

Spec-Comm has posted that they're taking pre-orders...

[dregenthal]

There is a rebate program for folks that want to buy an AG-HPX300 and don't want to wait for the Economy cards. It is a short term program in that we will offer a rebate on the purchase of one of the A or R series cards when purchased with an AG-HPX300, and this is a US only program.

Best,

Jan

Jan- I think I'm going to get in on this one. Do you have any specific details on it yet?

Thanks.

[jona816]

may have missed this if this info was already posted, but has anyone over at NAB heard any news about a US release date and final pricing for the GH1?

[Pufferfish Productions]

Hi Jan,

Can I ask, what kind of Cable will the system be based upon? Is it Triax, Fibre Optic, Multipin or A.N.OTHER?

What will it have head to base unit functionality. (i.e RETURNS, GENLOCKS, TC, COMMS, TALLY's etc etc etc)

Thanks

Rich Steel

excited about this add-on configuration~
Anyone got any photos of the prototype @ the booth?

[puredrifting]

may have missed this if this info was already posted, but has anyone over at NAB heard any news about a US release date and final pricing for the GH1?

The GH-1 is from the stills division, not from Jan and Co. The stills division does not attend NAB. Unless the president of Panasonic is there, there is likely nobody at the show who would be in the GH1 loop, unless they are going to re-align divisions and give Jan and Co. VDSLRs.

Dan

[jona816]

ah i see, did not know that. thank you for enlightening me :)

[puredrifting]

Now that it seems all DSLRs will probably support HD video since the massive success of the 5d MKII, it does sort of seem to exist in a nowhere land. The still guys don't seem to know much about video and the video people probably see the further success of VDSLRs as a threat to their own video product lines.

Wish I had a crystal ball to see where this wil all be at this time next year.

Dan

[mico]

If you don't believe that, then I don't know what color the sky is in YOUR world. :huh:

Happy to say not the same as yours especially when you've invested heavily in P2 like you have.

[mcgeedigital]

Happy to say not the same as yours especially when you've invested heavily in P2 like you have.

And it's made me money.

[puredrifting]

I stand corrected. Stu Maschwitz posted on his blog that Canon did have the 5D MKII at the booth there. Very unusual since up until now, the still guys and the video guys at Canon have never been able to mix and meet supposedly.

I think the VDSLR is really shaking things up these days, both with the market and with the internal structure at these companies.

Dan

[ullanta]

im fairly certain it wont fail. Panasonic wouldnt sell a "professional" card if there was a shot in hell of it failing.

Its just that CF solid state memory ( the kind in the new cards) has a shorter life span.

Ummm... Panasonic is saying that it will fail, after around 5 years of daily use. Everything fails.

I'm just wondering how gracefully it degrades... that is, we know that P2 verifies the write each time, but is there any clear mechanism for tracking/reporting the rate of write failures? Some way we can know it's time to stop using the things? Or will it one day (far off!) just say - "Error: Your Footage is Gone!"

[Comstock1]

Actually, they are saying that five years is a "use" limit. My understanding of what Jan was quoted as saying was that the card is meant to be written to 1825 times, which is once a day for five years. As the card approaches its limit, it is supposed to warn you of its impending doom. The card supposedly stops recording after that limit is reached (I assume it will still allow itself to be read).

[Jan_Crittenden]

Ummm... Panasonic is saying that it will fail, after around 5 years of daily use. Everything fails.


It doesn't fail, it stops working. The fact of the new memory is that it has liminted number of rewrites. If you use it EVERY day fill it completely EVERY day, it will stop working after 5 years. The rest of the construction is identical to the other P2 cards. If you don't fill it every day say you only record it half way every day, then it will last 10 years. It is a matter of rewriting the memory.


I'm just wondering how gracefully it degrades... that is, we know that P2 verifies the write each time, but is there any clear mechanism for tracking/reporting the rate of write failures? Some way we can know it's time to stop using the things? Or will it one day (far off!) just say - "Error: Your Footage is Gone!"

P2 Formatter will allow you to monitor its use and look at a Fuel Gauge. Additionally there will be warnings in the VF that say your card is running out of life. When it finally unable to record, and you will be well aware in advace that it is happening, you will be able to offload the last recorded video, nothing has failed.

Thanks,

Jan

[ChipG]

So it has firmware (a built in odometer) in it that shuts it off after 1825 full downloads and allows you to remove your final footage?

[Parker Yates]

5 years of daily use for the new p2 cards is a lot. This is great news for Panasonic and it's users. I wonder why its lifespan is shorter than the A series.

[smelni]

im happy to hear it gracefully fails without loss of data - just curious how it knows that NEXT time it will fail?

[ChipG]

im happy to hear it gracefully fails without loss of data - just curious how it knows that NEXT time it will fail?

I am to, it could be a concern in a few years getting cards passed around in the field and from rental houses and wondering if you won't be able to offload the final footage. I don't care about the cards being used up just getting the final footage off them.

[Barry_Green]

I wonder why its lifespan is shorter than the A series.
Because it uses MLC memory instead of SLC. MLC is cheaper, denser, and even faster, but it's got a limited lifespan. Just google SSD drives for tons of articles about SLC vs. MLC.

[Barry_Green]

im happy to hear it gracefully fails without loss of data - just curious how it knows that NEXT time it will fail?
Because there's a complete computer inside the P2 card that keeps track of the usage. It'll start warning you long before the fail point.

And, as I understand it, it won't just "shut off". You can keep using it as long as you want, but you do so at your own risk. But I'll try to find some engineers and ask them if it actually shuts down, or if it continues to let you try to use it but you run the risk of corrupted data, etc. When MLC memory is worn out, it's worn out, so you don't want to use it beyond its wear-out period or you run the risk of errors.

[DavidNJ]

Now that it seems all DSLRs will probably support HD video since the massive success of the 5d MKII, it does sort of seem to exist in a nowhere land. The still guys don't seem to know much about video and the video people probably see the further success of VDSLRs as a threat to their own video product lines.

Wish I had a crystal ball to see where this wil all be at this time next year.

Dan

Canon is rather frozen on the still side; they are using the features of Digic 4 which doesn't give them headroom. There is a rumor that the Canon video guys will have something next year.

Panasonic (this is a Panasonic thread after all) has the GH-1. It has some issues. The question is what those issues are and are they surmountable.

There are really 4 issues the DSLR craze has brought to the surface: large sensors with native interchangeable still lens support, large photosites with less noise, oversampling to maintain high MTF to higher spatial frequencies, and in the case of the Canon high quality recording (arguably equivalent to AVC Intra 100, 12-bit long GOP at 45Mb/s vs 20-bit I-frame at 100Mb/s).

My guess is everyone (Sony, Panasonic, Canon, etc.) will capture those attributes in video cameras within the next 24-36 months.

[ullanta]

P2 Formatter will allow you to monitor its use and look at a Fuel Gauge. Additionally there will be warnings in the VF that say your card is running out of life. When it finally unable to record, and you will be well aware in advace that it is happening, you will be able to offload the last recorded video, nothing has failed.


Does this imply a firmware update for the old cameras, or do they already have software in place to give these warnings? Will all previously-released P2 cameras support this? (Many of us never use P2 Formatter!)

[Tom 4]

Barry can you please check and report on this card Reader on the Sonnet stand...
I have posted in the Hardware forum also..

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/images/icons/icon1.gif NEW Sonnet Card Reader for P2 ?
Has anyone seen this little reader from Sonnet I believe it's at NAB this week, it may be an alternative to the current P2 Readers out there... with esata connection it should be FAST....
It has me very excited.....

Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au (http://www.olinevideo.com.au/index.htm)


Sonnet's Qio eSATA controller / all-in one card reader


http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/04/090422-sonnetqio-01.jpg (http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/04/22/sonnet.preps.card.reader/)

Sonnet's a fun little company -- when not hustling iPod chargers and transmitters, it's providing the world with more sober, serious hardware, such as its Raid Storage solutions.
Among the company's newest kit is Qio, a media card reader / writer that includes a E4P SATA host controller, four eSATA ports, and the usual array of P2, SxS and CompactFlash slots.
If that weren't enough, this device also includes an adapter so that your SD and XF cards don't feel left out. Available for both desktop (PCIe) and laptop owners (ExpressCard),
the HDD controller supports port multipliers allowing users to access up to 20 drives. Available sometime next month, pricing to be determined.