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View Full Version : A couple of lenses forr runNgun..



morgan_moore
04-15-2009, 03:25 PM
Im still scratching my head on lenses for the 5d2

These might be added to my arsenal for runNgun use movie and stills..

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Nikkor AF 24-120 3.5/5.6

Seems like it could be a great RunNGun lens - pretty much does it all for handheld - one cant hold longer that 120 handheld anyway

Does anyone know the minimum focus distance or is able to describe its ability to fill the frame with a face or working hands

I can handle stills manually focussed at the wide end

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Canon 70-200mm F4 L USM

This lens appeals because I get AF if I use the camera for stills - I cant trust my manual focus skill with long lenses foir stills

Having never used a canon lens on my 5d - how bad is loss of aperture control, could it be matched with an ND filter

Being a reasonable telephoto wide ap becomes less critical

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My mission is to kit myself out for RunNGun, preferably movie and stills one body

A light two lens kit

I have heaps of nikkor exotica for when I have time to dig through the primes case - this is just for RunNGun

SMM

morgan_moore
04-15-2009, 03:29 PM
I just realised that the canon lens focusses 'the wrong way' while filming so I wont be able to intuitively pull focus with it .. a big disadvantage

S

puredrifting
04-15-2009, 04:50 PM
The Nikon 24-120 is widely regarded as one of Nikon's worst zooms as far as pure image quality (although for mere 1080 video, that may not be as big a deal) and it really isn't so fast either. I have not tried a variable aperture zoom but from what I have read, the 5D MKII will stutter or stop recording if you zoom a variable aperture lens during recording.

The Canon 70-200 F4 is regarded as a pretty high quality lens, but once again F4 is slow and you will have to use the lens unlock or mylar hacks to have the ability to even shoot it at F4 much of the time. Most video users like and prefer fast, constant aperture lenses for greater depth of field options. An Ideal run and gun kit would probably be something like Nikons 20mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4 AI/AIS and perhaps a fast zoom for the upper reaches like the Nikon 80-200 2.8.

You will be unhappy with the depth of field choices and the ISO speeds the 5D MKII will select for you with the lenses you described. Zoom lenses are kind of a compromise as fast constant aperture zooms are going to be 2.8 and heavy and expensive and reasonable cost zooms are going to be variable aperture and slow to stay reasonably priced and reasonably light. Primes are really a viable workflow for video, especially since you can buy a 1.4 50mm Nikon for as little as $150.00 that will look amazingg and give you a lot more flexibility. Same in the wide range, the Nikon zooms in the wide range that are a constant 2.8 cost big money and are tanks. I love that the 20mm 2.8 and the 50mm 1.4 are reasonably cheap, very fast and are phsycially tiny and light in comparison.

Dan

ESTEBEVERDE
04-15-2009, 05:57 PM
20mm 2.8 and the 50mm 1.4 :beer:

Tony_Reyes
04-15-2009, 08:23 PM
I like the 20mm and 50mm idea.
I don't see myself doing any zooming with this camera while I'm shooting HD. Unless they are snap zooms; I don't see how I would get a smooth manual zoom with any still lens.
My plan at the moment is to stick with a 50mm Zeiss then move to a wider (cheaper/older) Nikon lens.
Also, I don't know when I would really want to shoot with a long lens for run and gun. If I had time to change to 200 or 300 and set up an interesting shot I would.
It seems like your trying to cover too much with just 2 lenses.

What primes do you have?

anyways...my 2 cents.

tony

puredrifting
04-15-2009, 08:56 PM
Yes, I agree, a 20 and a 50 should over about 85% of most run and gun situations with talent on screen. I think you would only need the longer focal lengths for sports or nature. You can always use your feet as a zoom lens and move the heck up on the subject!

To me, quality, speed and size and weight are important, I personally only need a zoom when shooting sports. For the rest, I like primes.

Dan

morgan_moore
04-15-2009, 11:17 PM
I am a 'prime nut' - I have a 20, 28, 20-35, and three or four different 50mm lenses (1.4 and 1.2) - giving up wide apertures and quality glass does not appeal - but I am concluding it may not be the right tool for fast unrehearsed operation

Also I should redifine RnG a bit - I think I will have sticks with me most of the time with the 70-200 mounted on them - I would only abandon the 70-200 and sticks for 'pure street' where I would try to go one camera one lens 24-120 probably mounted on a merlin which would be used folded as a shoulder mount 90% of the time

the appeal of the 24-120 is subtle..

The 24-120 is the same cost (nearly) as a novoflex adapter

24 is a nice wide start (I would prefer 20 but this is a compromise, 28 really isnt wide enough)

Yes there is a loss of DOF but in reality holding focus at 2.8 or wider is a challenge in non rehearsed situations, 3.5 wont be that different - remember it is the sensor size that really drives the DOF look

While I would never choose to zoom 'while rolling' the zoom means I get a choice of lenses on the camera without having to change lenses between shots - I could even roll an interview and recompose while the bod was chatting covering the zooms with my cutaways in post

20-120 allows shooting a 'classic three', interview (35-50), scene setter 24 and cutaways like hands 120 with no lens change - superfast

also chunky zoom allow ease of use with a Merlin

changing lenses may not seem a big deal but if you analise the time spent and loss spontenaity it can be significant

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Why the 50mm is unapealling - I love the 50 dont get me wrong it is my 'desert island lens' - but a 200 (on sticks) really allows one to work a room like an office without moving those sticks - not laziness but speed - grabbing the 'secatary on the phone', 'hands clicking miouse' and a pile of filler shots really really quickly

A major drawback of using a shorty like a 50 on sticks is that I tend to put the tripod at one height (speed not laziness) being in close tends to give an unapealling view/perspaective/angle when one is looking up or down at something - using a tele reduces this affect

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The appeal of this 70-200 f4 - I have an 70-200 2.8 nikkor - are..

its cheap compared to a 2.8
its light weight

Yes there is loss of DOF control - how wide does one actually want at 135-200 zone - but the real prize is not having to carry a D3 to pick up some stills - a major prize !

Maybe this shows the subtelty required in choosing the right kit for each individuals operatiing conditions

Further thoughts?

S

morgan_moore
04-15-2009, 11:43 PM
Of course there is the EX1 - zoom - control - no lens changes - no rolling shutter under artificial - but it just looks utter cr*p compared to the 5d

DREWjoseph82
04-16-2009, 01:41 AM
I was watching "Last Call with Carson Daily" tonight, and they cut to a linking shot that started with - you guessed it - the back LCD screen of the 5D mkII. They were doing some run and gun interviews with a Canon 70-200 2.8 handheld.

BradM
04-16-2009, 12:33 PM
Of course there is the EX1 - zoom - control - no lens changes - no rolling shutter under artificial - but it just looks utter cr*p compared to the 5d

http://www.vimeo.com/4071239 Ok so this clip is an EX3 with a letus... but me thinks you are not doing it right if your stuff looks like "utter cr*p" with an EX1.

its just kind of a crazy statement thats all:)

puredrifting
04-16-2009, 01:08 PM
I agree, EX1 and EX3 in skilled hands are totally capable of beautiful images.

If you don't know what you are doing, yes, your stuff can look like utter crap with any camera.

Dan

morgan_moore
04-16-2009, 01:59 PM
http://www.vimeo.com/4071239 Ok so this clip is an EX3 with a letus... but me thinks you are not doing it right if your stuff looks like "utter cr*p" with an EX1.

its just kind of a crazy statement thats all:)

I know the work of Mr Bloom well - his adapter footage is indeed attractive and pushed me to purchase an EX1 and Letus - befroe the 5d was launched

However check out his rig - it is a beast - and with the Zacuto stuff costly - can I get 80% of the look with something that I could carry-on 'handluggage only' including a full professional stills capability and a laptop - I might cheat and put the sticks in the hold

And think how long it takes him to remove a lens, rejig the FF and rails - my clients wont wait for that - maybe his will - the prize of success

We are comparing that with a 5d and a 24-120 lens - virtually pocket size, light enough to shoulder all day, no lens changes and flyable on a 500 Merlin - his rig would need a 7000+ Flyer

My experience of the EX1 is that is can look OK, especially in clean environments using backgrounds like the sky or a beach (the sort of places Mr Bloom hangs out) but when one is forced into a 'dirty' envronment - like a clients premesis - only the 35 chip look can declutter the background rendering the footage 'not cr*p' or at least better than the local 'videographer' competition

S

Eric Papa
04-16-2009, 03:52 PM
out of all my lenses, which is like 7 L series, I find myself using the 70-200mm 2.8 IS L most all of the time.

If im doing steadicam than i use something around 20mm

TimurCivan
04-16-2009, 03:54 PM
I just realised that the canon lens focusses 'the wrong way' while filming so I wont be able to intuitively pull focus with it .. a big disadvantage

S

actually canons go the "right way".... nikons are backwards from cinema lenses and canon still....

morgan_moore
04-16-2009, 08:49 PM
out of all my lenses, which is like 7 L series, I find myself using the 70-200mm 2.8 IS L most all of the time.


and how many stupid descisions does the camera make?

ie picking 1600ISO at F11 instead of 400 at 4

do you use the 'half off trick' or just let the camera rule you

S

Eric Papa
04-17-2009, 10:08 PM
Of course I control the camera manually, its simple to twist the lens off slightly, its easy to set a 2.8 iris and shoot outdoors, the focus is easy to pull and is accurate.

The reason I use the 70-200,

I'm usually looking for shallow depth of field with this lens,

It never strobes the picture or causes in camera problems like some of my other lenses do.

I'll post some screen grabs here for you.

Eric Papa
04-17-2009, 10:26 PM
These have no adjustment in post.


70-200, at 200, at 2.8 and shutter at 4000

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/ericpapa/b.jpg

14mm at 2.8 and shutter at 50

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/ericpapa/c.jpg

14mm at 2.8 and shutter at 80

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/ericpapa/a.jpg


I have a commercial with better examples of the 70-200 lens but I'll need to export jpegs from Avid.

morgan_moore
04-19-2009, 11:13 PM
Of course I control the camera manually, its simple to twist the lens off slightly, its easy to set a 2.8 iris and shoot outdoors, the focus is easy to pull and is accurate.

The reason I use the 70-200,

I'm usually looking for shallow depth of field with this lens,

It never strobes the picture or causes in camera problems like some of my other lenses do.

I'll post some screen grabs here for you.

Thanks for that - dont worry about finding more grabs - I have a nikkor 80-200 so I know what that lens looks like

If you could comment on the footage not strobing with high shutter speeds that would be interesting..

S

daveswan
04-20-2009, 01:52 AM
Hey, Eric I just noticed you said"Avid"
I'm running Avid MC 3.0 (Debating whether to go 3.5) and am half thinking of upgrading my 5D to a 5DII.
How do you deal with the Post? I tried importing a sample clip into MC and it came in as DNxHD 220, but the frame rate (I think) gave me problems with the monitor window flashing (The sound played fine).
BTW I'm in PAL so used to working in 25fps NDF, and running MC on a PC.
Cheers,
Dave

morgan_moore
04-20-2009, 02:55 AM
Well Ive ordered a 24-120 AF (130) and a 100-300 5.6 manual (80!)

A big compromise on maximum aperture but a great zoom range on just two lenses

I am expecting that the 100-300 will be for sticks and that I will have to make a tripod collar/cradle for it, this may compromise some of the zoom range

I am hoping that..

Poor performance of the wide is good enough for moving 1080 as opposed to a 12mp still

Poor aperture of the long will help holding focus, and not be too much of an issue due to the light sensitiviy of the 5d and not look too bad because the chip size is the main determintant of DOF

Of course where time and lugging ability allow I will choose primes

S

puredrifting
04-20-2009, 08:10 AM
Eric:

Are you saying that the shots of South Beach and the rappers in the studio were with your your 70-200? They look more like 17-20mm focal length. The first rapper shot looks like 70-200 but the second two look ultra wide angle.

Dan

morgan_moore
04-21-2009, 01:14 PM
well I got those lenses

the 24-120 it is a handy focal length

You could pretty much shoot something with just this on a shoulder mount

Focus is rough and zooming in shot not possible

the DOF look is compromised compared to 2.8 lenses

great for a secondary rig if you are on a stills job !

---

100-300

there is no way to mount on stick, mounting via the camera compromises stability and ability to focus or zoom smoothly

This is light weight and was very cheap

nothing like my 80-200VR nikkor which focuses and zooms in a fantastic way

part of the 'reserve team' when the 80-200 is busy shooting stills

overall this is not a prime killing solution but could be useful when weight, cash and time are at a premium

S

morgan_moore
04-22-2009, 12:26 AM
Ive just got a mini reel going on my homepage www.sammorganmoore.com (http://www.sammorganmoore.com)

Shows the kind of real environments Im trying to work in..

S

Eric Papa
04-25-2009, 08:14 AM
Eric:

Are saying that the shots of South Beach and the rappers in the studio were with your your 70-200? They look more like 17-20mm focal length. The first rapper shot looks like 70-200 but the second two look ultra wide angle.

Dan


Yea the first is the 70-200, the second two say that it is the 14mm fisheye right above the pic, so yes your on the right track, but even wider.


So far I've had no problems with strobing

Eric Papa
04-25-2009, 08:16 AM
Ive just got a mini reel going on my homepage www.sammorganmoore.com (http://www.sammorganmoore.com)

Shows the kind of real environments Im trying to work in..

S

Theres definitely a dramatic difference between the Canon L series and nikon lenses...GO CANON!

I have seven 5D II projects in post right now. Will post some stuff later on

Eric Papa
04-25-2009, 08:18 AM
Hey, Eric I just noticed you said"Avid"
I'm running Avid MC 3.0 (Debating whether to go 3.5) and am half thinking of upgrading my 5D to a 5DII.
How do you deal with the Post? I tried importing a sample clip into MC and it came in as DNxHD 220, but the frame rate (I think) gave me problems with the monitor window flashing (The sound played fine).
BTW I'm in PAL so used to working in 25fps NDF, and running MC on a PC.
Cheers,
Dave

Start a 1080/59.94 project. Then I import at dnx145 i think. So far works flawless no issues. If I have a 32GB card to import, I set it up overnight because it does take a while...

ESTEBEVERDE
04-25-2009, 01:37 PM
Theres definitely a dramatic difference between the Canon L series and nikon lenses...GO CANON!

I have seven 5D II projects in post right now. Will post some stuff later on

Can you go into more detail please?

puredrifting
04-25-2009, 01:50 PM
the second two say that it is the 14mm fisheye right above the pic, so yes your on the right track, but even wider

Doh!

Sorry, didn't notice the captions. Nice, 14mm is a nice lens for that look. I bet Hype Williams shot a lot of those classic hip hop videos with a lens of similar length.

Have you shot with the Nikons? What kinds of Nikons? Newer D series or the older, better stuff?

Dan