What can we expect from Panna at NAB2009

[Cees Mutsaers]

regarding the HPX300 (firmware update) or even a small HPX500 update?

[Spec-Comm]

I asked my rep and he said that there isn't much this year. I'm sure he's keeping something quiet but I'm not really sure.

I know that they have a new Pan-tilt convertable camera (870) and I think he said something about the AVCAM transcoder and some LCD screens... We'll see. I will be hanging around the Panny booth for most of the show and I will be sending out regular "Tweats" as soon as I see something new. If you would like to join, go to www.twitter.com/speccomm

All we can do is cross our fingers. :)

Sincerely,

Andrew Hoffman
Vice President
Specialized Communications Corp.
20940 Twin Springs Dr.
Smithsburg, MD 21783-1510 USA
800-359-1858 (US)
301-790-0103
Fax: 301-790-0173
andrewh@spec-comm.com
www.spec-comm.com
www.twitter.com/speccomm

[Christian m]

Hpx500 with better EVF/LCD and unislot for wireless mics? At the same price level just to annoy Sony...:Drogar-Mark-10(DBG)

And i'd love more details on Panasonic's go at POV HD cam, the AG-HMR10. I'm forced to buy Sony's for now, but Panasonic's model might serve the purpose as recorder/player for event video as it as HD-sdi input....exciting.

[Barry_Green]

Jan has repeatedly said that there will be no update to the HPX500. I really wish there was, as that'd be a no-brainer for me right now! :) But, it is not to be.

[Sumfun]

The HPX500 is the oldest camera in the current lineup, so they'll probably update it soon. Maybe not this NAB, but hopefully this year. New EVF/LCD, and AVC-I are no-brainers. New CCD's would be nice, but I think they may move to CMOS to keep from cannibalizing the HPX2700 market, and keep prices low. Just my guess.

The HMR10 looks nice. Any ideas about pricing and release date?

[Dino]

I'm pretty sure Panasonic is going to be showing some new cameras at NAB, just a question of price point and delivery time.

[alexdias]

Hey Jeff, can you give us something else?

;)

[dcraig]

I heard specialized camera for film like shooting B/W only with several zonal settings

[Dino]

Hey Jeff, can you give us something else?

;)

Alex,

All I know is that a very reliable source told me months ago, when I asked about the HPX300 rumors, that there would be more new cameras at NAB, not just the HPX300. No specific details. Totally conjecture, but I'm expecting a prototype large sensor camera to address RED ONE. I'd be happy with a 35mm sensor camera that was limited to 2K resolution, but actually performed the processing that cameras are meant to do such as, knee, gamma, channel balanced white clips and an improvement on RED"s low ISO rating. A user friendly form factor would be a bonus as well.

I also heard that it would be best to avoid buying new P2 cards prior to NAB.

[Lez]

Personally they should radically drop the price of P2 cards and make an impact...

Cheers

[Big Brother]

Frankly speaking there is nothing expected from PANASONIC> BUT i would wish panasonic to stop making huge profits out of P2 cards & give some real affordable card @ cost comparable to equivalent memory available in for of SDHC or CF cards (no arguments on this cox i hate P2 cards cost)

[alexdias]

Alex,

All I know is that a very reliable source told me months ago, when I asked about the HPX300 rumors, that there would be more new cameras at NAB, not just the HPX300. No specific details. Totally conjecture, but I'm expecting a prototype large sensor camera to address RED ONE. I'd be happy with a 35mm sensor camera that was limited to 2K resolution, but actually performed the processing that cameras are meant to do such as, knee, gamma, channel balanced white clips and an improvement on RED"s low ISO rating. A user friendly form factor would be a bonus as well.

I also heard that it would be best to avoid buying new P2 cards prior to NAB.

That sounds very interesting. I wonder what the price range will be since even the most expensive RED (as per announcement) is cheaper than the Varicam 2700 body.
Anyway, is very exciting to have more and more options.

As far as P2 cards goes, we all hope some change on the price.
Tough times all over and we can certainly use a hand from the big ones to keep prices affordable.

[jrmiller_entertainment]

BUT i would wish panasonic to stop making huge profits out of P2 cards & give some real affordable card @ cost comparable to equivalent memory available in for of SDHC or CF cards (no arguments on this cox i hate P2 cards cost)

Then don't buy a p2 camera. problem solved.

[Barry_Green]

Exactly. That's what AVCCAM is for, so people who want to record on the cheapest memory cards can do so.

[dadoboy]

Yeah a large sensor prototype from Panasonic or Canon would sure stir the pot - but do they typically broadcast cameras that far in advance at NAB? I don't see one being release until well into 2010.



Alex,

All I know is that a very reliable source told me months ago, when I asked about the HPX300 rumors, that there would be more new cameras at NAB, not just the HPX300. No specific details. Totally conjecture, but I'm expecting a prototype large sensor camera to address RED ONE. I'd be happy with a 35mm sensor camera that was limited to 2K resolution, but actually performed the processing that cameras are meant to do such as, knee, gamma, channel balanced white clips and an improvement on RED"s low ISO rating. A user friendly form factor would be a bonus as well.

I also heard that it would be best to avoid buying new P2 cards prior to NAB.

[Dino]

Yeah a large sensor prototype from Panasonic or Canon would sure stir the pot - but do they typically broadcast cameras that far in advance at NAB? I don't see one being release until well into 2010.

Well, if I were Panasonic, I might tear a page out of the RED marketing manual and announce a product well in advance of expected delivery. I think just having an empty box with a Zeiss 35mm SLR or Cine lens attached to it along with the Panasonic name would give some Scarlett and Epic buyers pause. Then it would be a race to see who could delay delivery longest!

[Barry_Green]

Typically these companies won't announce a new product that will undercut their existing sales (i.e., you won't hear about an HVX200B before it's ready, as people would delay buying HVX200As because of it). But if they don't have anything to compete against in their own lineup, and they can take the wind out of someone else's sales, then yeah, they'll announce long before delivery. The original HVX200 was first "announced" in February 2005, and delivered (barely) in December 2005, so that was almost a year's lead time. But Panasonic didn't have any other low-cost HD camcorder, so why not announce early and get Sony & Canon buyers to delay their purchases, etc?

If they were to be coming out with a large-sensor camera (something on the order of the F35) then sure, I bet they'd announce it as early as possible to get digi-cine buyers to think twice before committing their dough.

[Dino]

If they were to be coming out with a large-sensor camera (something on the order of the F35) then sure, I bet they'd announce it as early as possible to get digi-cine buyers to think twice before committing their dough.

Exactly! Interesting that the Lumix GH1 is about to be released--slap that sensor into an ENG camera body with P2 recording, AVC Intra codec, 4:4:4 dual output, changeable lens mounts, viewfinder, LCD display from an HPX300 and be vague about the price point, gauge professional interest(find out what customers would pay), if the delivery date is delayed, so what? Panasonic just has to say, "we won't deliver a camera that requires 15 firmware revisions before it's ready for prime time, we'll deliver when it's bug free". Get Fuji or Canon to make some affordable primes and zooms........I should be the Panasonic US product manager!

[Cees Mutsaers]

What do YOU guess the price point of such cam would be?????


Exactly! Interesting that the Lumix GH1 is about to be released--slap that sensor into an ENG camera body with P2 recording, AVC Intra codec, 4:4:4 dual output, changeable lens mounts, viewfinder, LCD display from an HPX300 and be vague about the price point, gauge professional interest(find out what customers would pay), if the delivery date is delayed, so what? Panasonic just has to say, "we won't deliver a camera that requires 15 firmware revisions before it's ready for prime time, we'll deliver when it's bug free". Get Fuji or Canon to make some affordable primes and zooms........I should be the Panasonic US product manager!

[Sumfun]

What do YOU guess the price point of such cam would be?????

How much is Scarlet?

[Big Brother]

Then don't buy a p2 camera. problem solved.

much better solution,dump panny toys in favor of SONY 's PROducts ! :Drogar-Evil(DBG):

on a serious note :
GB16-523$
GB32-786$
GB64-1260$

mmmmunchy ccccrunchy !

I got them from my panny folks !

[alexdias]

GB16-523$
GB32-786$
GB64-1260$



That would be very good news!

That level of price for a 62GB P2 card makes everything more interesting.
I'm now looking forward to next week...

[Big Brother]

brrr NOW m being greedy ... panny PLSPLSPLS if you could just drop 64Gb to 786 US$ heheheheh (this is a never ending greed ... next year i will show the same level of greed for 128GB cards pricing )
Thx Panny if this news true to the core :)

[Cees Mutsaers]

When will the 64G be available?
Where in San Fransisco area?

[Lez]

GB16-523$
GB32-786$
GB64-1260$

Cool... we've been waiting in silence...

[puredrifting]

I hope that these figures are true, I think Panasonic would see a huge surge of P2 cards sales and this would help a lot of users buy P2 cameras who were on the fence.

Dan

[Lez]

I think that's the plan Dan..... they've gotta stop the haggle over P2 prices...

Too many DOP's I know have the whole P2 price-point in their heads as being way over priced...

If they remove that physiological obstacle they will be in a winning position...

Unfortunately the next hurdle of of the form factor of PCMICA cards is more difficult to overcome..

I never understood why Panasonic did not come up with some strategic alliances with a laptop manufacture to build a specific machine that would suit P2 in the field... how hard would it be to form an alliance and slap on a P2 badge...

Just my 2c...

Cheers

[Big Brother]

A word from JAN will help me believe the not so BAD truth :D

[filmat11]

I just spent $ 1399.00 each for 2- 32 gigs two weeks ago....aaaarrggghhhh !
REBATE JAN ?

[Lez]

I just spent $ 1399.00 each for 2- 32 gigs two weeks ago....aaaarrggghhhh !
REBATE JAN ?

Ouch....

[alexdias]

I hope that these figures are true, I think Panasonic would see a huge surge of P2 cards sales and this would help a lot of users buy P2 cameras who were on the fence.

Dan

Agreed.
I hear a lot from producers (among others) about the P2 price level.
They like to own their footage right away. Some of them had invested on cards so they can hand it to shooters and leave with the footage, just like the old tapes with the benefit of using it again and again.
If these prices are right, producers will soon be buying a few 64's and that's that.

[alexdias]

I just spent $ 1399.00 each for 2- 32 gigs two weeks ago....aaaarrggghhhh !
REBATE JAN ?

That is unfortunate.
I've been in similar situation before and I know it sucks!
I recommend been very conservative with any purchase right before the NAB show.
If you needed it's fine you probably got your investment worth, but if you can hold a couple of weeks...

[alexdias]

When will the 64G be available?
Where in San Fransisco area?

I believe the 64GB cards are available right now at several locations worldwide.
The price is around U$2,500 in the USA.
After the NAB the story could be different.

[TimTyler]

on a serious note :
GB16-523$
GB32-786$
GB64-1260$

I just spent almost $6k on two 32's and 64 so I'll be upset if they start selling cards that cheap anytime soon.

[puredrifting]

I see that as the double edged sword for Panasonic. No matter when they drop prices, they wil piss off someone who just bought them at the old prices. Always a challenge for them I am sure.

Dan

[LuckyStudio 13]

not gonna happened with those price points.

[Lez]

never say never... as far as I was told on this forum the HPX300 would never happen...

[Big Brother]

never say never... as far as I was told on this forum the HPX300 would never happen...

meaning ???:Drogar-Smoke(DBG):

[puredrifting]

I gotta say, sometimes the rumors are right. I was pretty big naysayer when the rumors about the 300 began and lo and behold, there it was. Usually rumors are meaningless but occasionally they surprise you. The 300 sure did surprise me.

Dan

[Barry_Green]

I'll let you guys know in about an hour. The press conference starts at noon and I'm gonna blog from it on the laptop... heh.

[lyonfilms]

Thanks Barry. Cool.

The vendor we work with here in Portland told me the same P2 price drop rumor about 10 days ago. He didn't have details on the price points but said he heard that was likely to occur.

[David Saraceno]

Major P2 announcement...

Advancements in solid-state memory are allowing them to increase capacity and speed while lowering costs.

A NEW TYPE OF P2 CARD: the P2 "E" Series. It's "blazing fast", thanks to a newly developed design, it's 1.2 gigabits per second! And they're cheaper: "dramatically lower prices". The new 64GB card has an MSRP of under $1,000 (the existing A series card is $2650!) The 32GB card is $625, and the 16GB is $420.

They have a shorter lifetime than the existing A series, about 5 years of daily use. 16 and 32 are available in May, the new 64 is available in August.

[Lez]

Hooray.. Panny has seen the light... 64gigs under $1000... now that's gonna be good...

Cheers

[Cees Mutsaers]

Wonder what is meant by this? Just because of the write/rewrite action or because of wear down of mechanical contacts???


Major P2 announcement...


They have a shorter lifetime than the existing A series, about 5 years of daily use. 16 and 32 are available in May, the new 64 is available in August.

[Barry_Green]

The contacts are the same. The difference is that they use MLC memory instead of SLC. People have wanted to know why P2 cards were so expensive, and how they were using memory that "you can't even buy", well, apparently that is why -- they were SLC architecture. The new "E" series is MLC architecture. MLC can be more densely packed resulting in less expense, but it also has fewer rewrite cycles. Panasonic's estimate is that you could fill it up and offload it once a day every day for five years. I think that's probably way conservative; MLC memory usually is said as being able to go 10,000 cycles, which should mean once a day for 27 years.

[alexdias]

Dude! at less than 1K for 64GB that's EXCELLENT news!
The Panasonic lineup will get a huge impulse with this hit.

I'm sure lot of people here will mention the even cheaper options and all, but kinda paraphrasing JFK (i believe it was him): The best way to annoy everyone is trying to please everybody!

[videomagician]

Pic of the E series 64GB card at Studio Daily (http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/Panasonic-Bows-New-Low-Priced-E-Series-P2-Cards_10793.html). It is silver.

[Christian m]

Pic of the 64GB card at Studio Daily (http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/Panasonic-Bows-New-Low-Priced-E-Series-P2-Cards_10793.html). It is silver.
Looks like the Fuji P2 cards.....

[Sumfun]

Great news about the new cards with lower prices. I guess introducing a new line with fewer cycles is a good way to not p!ss off your current customers too much. With the extra bandwidth, I wonder if Panny will introduce a new codec, maybe AVC-I with 4-4-4, or maybe 1080p60. Would be nice.

[Christian m]

Would be nice with an even higher end Avc-i.....just to annoy Sony :)

[Barry_Green]

Well, there's some teasing about AVC-Ultra, but no details on what that means yet. Just a couple of pictures in press releases or slides that have the logo.

[puredrifting]

The Studio Daily press release lists the AVC Ultra as "Panasonic new 3D codec"? Wow, that should be interesting.

Dan

[Jan_Crittenden]

I just spent $ 1399.00 each for 2- 32 gigs two weeks ago....aaaarrggghhhh !
REBATE JAN ?


There is no rebate, you have what we call lifetime cards. The new cards are limited life cards. That is if you filled an off-loaed a card every day for 5 years you would be at the end of their life-span. Your cars wil do this for virtually the rest of the time you may own them, 10-15 years. Big difference in the type of memory used.

Hope the helps you understand the difference. What you bought is not the low priced card.

Best,

Jan

[LuckyStudio 13]

I rather have the standard life card than the new "disposable" ones.

[ChipG]

I rather have the standard life card than the new "disposable" ones.

Are you a rental house?

[puredrifting]

I would much rather have the new economy cards because I can afford almost unlimited shooting times. How often do people (other than news organizations) really shoot? This five years is easily stretched to decades for as much as most shooters shoot. I also agree that in five years, you will laugh at the size of 64GB cards too and will be shooting on TB cards by then.

Dan

[alexdias]

I shot a doc on P2 cards and for days and days we filled 8GB cards over and over again.
At the end I don't think we cycled more than 200 times each card and that was a lot of footage.

As ChipG said, unless you are a rental house with lots of business these new "Economic Cards" will do just fine for their cost. And if by some miracle you ran these cards to the end, which will take a while, you can always get new larger capacity E cards for less $ and combined these 2 purchases will be less that what you'll pay now for "4ever cards".

[Dino]

There is no practical reason to buy an "A" card. Not as a news organization, rental house, whatever. Five years is an eternity in HD acquisition media or any kind of solid state computer media. "E" cards rule!

Now, where's my large sensor, changeable lens mount AVC Intra camera? I know Canon is coming out with a 35mm CMOS sensor palmcorder.

[ChipG]

I also agree that in five years, you will laugh at the size of 64GB cards too and will be shooting on TB cards by then.

Dan

Several things I want to do is climb and shoot Everest, Hurricanes in the Carribean, shoot the Amazon, Africa the Great Barrier Reef etc and I'm Drooling over the thought of 1TB cards!!!!

What a breakthrough to be able to stay fast and light shooting for long periods with just a camera, a couple cards and a solar charger without selling your house to afford it.

I'll bet we see 128 gig E series cards this winter and when that happens and fairly cheap there will be a major change from sony to panny for reality / run n' gun Discovery Channel type shows.

HURRY PANNY!

[Luis Caffesse]

Several things I want to do is climb and shoot Everest, Hurricanes in the Carribean, shoot the Amazon, Africa the Great Barrier Reef etc

Need a 'B' cam op?
:)

[ChipG]

Need a 'B' cam op?
:)

Wanna fly a paraglider off the summit of Everest? :thumbup:

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

There is no practical reason to buy an "A" card. Not as a news organization, rental house, whatever. Five years is an eternity in HD acquisition media or any kind of solid state computer media. "E" cards rule!

Now, where's my large sensor, changeable lens mount AVC Intra camera? I know Canon is coming out with a 35mm CMOS sensor palmcorder.

With a 2K 4:4:4 12bit... it seems that we are on the right track...

AND the P2 "A" cards were just four years... Moore's law made "E"... in three years you will see "P2" "F,G,H..." that will cost as a tape...

So Jeff lets wait, NAB has few days more...

[Big Brother]

There is no rebate, you have what we call lifetime cards. The new cards are limited life cards. That is if you filled an off-loaed a card every day for 5 years you would be at the end of their life-span. Your cars wil do this for virtually the rest of the time you may own them, 10-15 years. Big difference in the type of memory used.

Hope the helps you understand the difference. What you bought is not the low priced card.

Best,

Jan

Hi JAN, finally panny has something for producers like Me. Very affordable P2 cards, i promise not to call them as EXTORTIONATING prices :) !

BTW if by the new economy series P@ cards ie, if i were to shoot & offload for next 5years daily (about 2000times only) will the card automatically stop recording or offloading etc ... or we would still be able to use them but at risk...pls clarify so that we dont have nay hidden dotted line !

[Jan_Crittenden]

BTW if by the new economy series P@ cards ie, if i were to shoot & offload for next 5years daily (about 2000times only) will the card automatically stop recording or offloading etc ... or we would still be able to use them but at risk...pls clarify so that we dont have nay hidden dotted line !

Once the card has been filled daily and emptied every day for 5 years, it will no longer record. However since I know that this is in general not how many people work, most will fill the card three or four times a day, empty it each time and then when the shoot is over it goes on the shelf for a week or two. This card will last longer.

The card will give plenty of notice to let you know that you are getting close to its life end with a message in your viewfinder and you can track its usability with the P2 Formatter software on your laptop.

Hopes this helps,

Jan

[Big Brother]

Once the card has been filled daily and emptied every day for 5 years, it will no longer record. However since I know that this is in general not how many people work, most will fill the card three or four times a day, empty it each time and then when the shoot is over it goes on the shelf for a week or two. This card will last longer.

The card will give plenty of notice to let you know that you are getting close to its life end with a message in your viewfinder and you can track its usability with the P2 Formatter software on your laptop.

Hopes this helps,

Jan

thx. This means that the cards are programmed to record/offload about 1825 times only. (365days of 5year=1825 shoots) ofcource we wont shoot everyday so these 1825 days could be spread for over longer period of times depending upon our usage pattern.

Was wondering why has it been locked to 1825 apprx usages only. Just curious.

Also have the A class been reduced too what i learn from my panny dealer

16-523$
32-786$
64-1260$

are these indicative NEW prices for E class or A class ... quite confused.

[David Saraceno]

If the card is half filled and offloaded, does that count as 1 or 1/2?

[Dino]

According to the Fuji P2 E press release, the number of cycles depends upon whether a card was used to full capacity, ie; if you only use a card to half capacity, you will get twice the number of cycles. It is my guess that Fuji makes the cards for Panasonic, as they do for their tape stock.

[Luis Caffesse]

Wanna fly a paraglider off the summit of Everest? :thumbup:

Again?
Sure, why not?
:)

[ChipG]

Luis, are you at NAB?

[Luis Caffesse]

Luis, are you at NAB?

Unless NAB is strangely quiet and taking place in my living room.... no, unfortunately I'm not.

[Cees Mutsaers]

what is exactly meant by emptied ? you mean erase the P2 card after it is completely filled ? Does it mean that if a card is only filled for i.e. 10% and emptied it already count for 1 or do you mean erased by emptied ???



Once the card has been filled daily and emptied every day for 5 years, it will no longer record. However since I know that this is in general not how many people work, most will fill the card three or four times a day, empty it each time and then when the shoot is over it goes on the shelf for a week or two. This card will last longer.

The card will give plenty of notice to let you know that you are getting close to its life end with a message in your viewfinder and you can track its usability with the P2 Formatter software on your laptop.

Hopes this helps,

Jan

[Spec-Comm]

A few things to consider:

- The new E-Series cards have a shorter life because of the type of flash memory they use. It can only be rewritten so many times. I expect the five-years-daily-use is an estimate based on how many times it can rewritten.

- Most indie film producers and event videographers won't be using the cards on a daily basis, true. Depending on your needs and uses, you may even have replaced these P2 cards several times in five years. There are those out there using the same 4 & 8 GB cards they bought their HVX with, and there are those who've replaced their 4 for the 8, 8 for the 16, 16 for the 32, and so on.

- On that note, it would seem likely that the 'A' series cards will hold their resale value better than the 'E' series cards. Just something for those who are going to sell their old cards when the next biggest size is released to consider.

- According to the marketing information for dealers, the 64GB E-Series card won't be available until August. For those who just bought 64GB cards, or need one soon, keep in mind that the 'E' card is still over four months out.

Having said that, we're talking about P2 cards at less than half the price of the current cards. And we're taking preorders! Check it out:

16GB E-Series P2 Card (http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=970)

32GB E-Series P2 Card (http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=969)

Right now there isn't a specific shipping date, so we don't know if it will be 'early May' or 'late May', please assume they'll be released later until further notice.

According to the dealer information, the 62GB cards will be available in August. We'll be taking preorders on them as well, just be aware that they won't be shipping soon.

64GB E-Series P2 Card (http://www.spec-comm.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=968)

Jasmine Moore
Administrative Assistant
Specialized Communications Corp.
20940 Twin Springs Dr.
Smithsburg, MD 21783-1510 USA
800-359-1858 (US)
301-790-0103
Fax: 301-790-0173
jasminem@spec-comm.com
www.spec-comm.com

[puredrifting]

I can now see what Jan's primary job function will consist of for the next year, answering hypothetical questions about how the new E series cards function after years of usage. Seems pretty straightforward to me, the new E cards have a lower usage rating than the exisiting cards and the usage rating is a non-issue for 80% of users because of Moore's law anyway.

I am kind of wishing that they would have just left the whole lifespan thing in the fine print and not even brought it up. But then again, I am a weirdo and always read the owners manual on expensive gear and I always read the fine print ;-)

The usage meter idea in the software and on P2 devices seems like a pretty fair way to use the cards, I like it!

Dan

[Spec-Comm]

I think that this is a great way for Panasonic to move forward in their P2 line. We all wanted cheaper cards but we didn't have to sacrifice quality and they did that. You can look at it this way, if you shoot with a card for 5 years and it "wears out" than I think it paid for itself much more than once.

Sincerely,

Andrew Hoffman
Vice President
Specialized Communications Corp.
20940 Twin Springs Dr.
Smithsburg, MD 21783-1510 USA
800-359-1858
301-790-0103
Fax: 301-790-0173
andrewh@spec-comm.com
www.spec-comm.com
www.twitter.com/specccomm

[Big Brother]

i agree we get what we pay for factor. Just out of love for usage mathematics i was wondering if the card was locked @ 1825 uses only.

[SteveCharles]

What about when we use the prerecord function? Wouldn't a 16 gig card cycle itself 2 to 4 times an hour? You could go through perhaps 10 cycles in the course of a long shoot. I guess that would still give you over 200 long days of shooting if the logic holds up.

[ChipG]

You mean the loop function not pre-record.

[Big Brother]

Hey JAN you need to clarify us all about the limited usage ! No hidden surprises :D

[puredrifting]

Steve:

Now that is a GREAT question. Inquiring minds do want to know. Does the loop function just write to a tiny portion of the P2 card at a time? I don't know. I have only used it once but when you need it, it is such a lifesaver.

Dan

[Dino]

According to Fuji, if you only record half of the card capacity, that would double your number of lifetime cycles, ie; 5 years would extend to 10 years. I think this lifetime cycles thing is a non-issue with the exception of resale value, possibly.

[SteveCharles]

I am referring to the three second constant prerecord and how that effects the lifespan of the E series P2 cards.

[Barry_Green]

What about when we use the prerecord function? Wouldn't a 16 gig card cycle itself 2 to 4 times an hour? You could go through perhaps 10 cycles in the course of a long shoot. I guess that would still give you over 200 long days of shooting if the logic holds up.
It's my understanding that pre-record doesn't use the P2 card for its loop buffer, it uses some manner of internal memory. That's why it has such a limited size (3 seconds); because there's a small cache of memory dedicated to the task. I could be wrong, but that's the way I understood it.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Now that is a GREAT question. Inquiring minds do want to know. Does the loop function just write to a tiny portion of the P2 card at a time? I don't know. I have only used it once but when you need it, it is such a lifesaver.


Pre-record does not use the card for the buffer, but rather the memory in the camera. No impact at all.


Best,

Jan

[SteveCharles]

Awesome! Thank you for clarifying.

[ChipG]

Pre-record does not use the card for the buffer, but rather the memory in the camera. No impact at all.


Best,

Jan

Hi Jan,

What about loop mode?

I will have a dash cam running for 10 hours a day in loop. Will my card be toast in 180 days? Will it count the one offload as just one of the 1825 cycles or will it get 10 cycles per day on it (64 gig card)? If it's a 16 gig card would this mean it gets 4 cycles per hour so 40 cycles per a 10 hour day in loop (I shoot in 1080) so a 16 gig E series would be toast in 45 days or will it count a cycle as just one offload no matter how long it loops for?

[Barry_Green]

Every time you overwrite the memory, that's a rewrite cycle.

It's not that there's just a "counter" in there, it's that solid state memory has a limited number of times it can be written to (reliably). SLC memory can handle 100,000 rewrites. MLC memory has a max of 10,000 rewrites. Panasonic is saying that they're confident the "E" series cards will handle, say, about 2,000 rewrites with no problem. I would suspect that the number is probably higher, I mean, why wouldn't it be the normal 10,000 for MLC? But "5 years" is what Panasonic says.

So if you've got a case where you're going to be continuously rewriting for hours and hours for months on end, that sounds like a pretty good reason why someone should get an "A" series instead of an "E" series. 3x the price, for 10x to 50x the lifespan, seems like a good tradeoff in those circumstances.

[Big Brother]

May be some whako jacko Engg will evolve a break the coding to allow the E series to be written ateast 8-10k times as MLC memory is supposed to. seriesly there should have been atleast 5000 rewrite cycles posible on E ... Woah not another debate but just a thought

Man i hats off to Panny's marketing teams coupled with engg techns ... We were cribbing all about Cheap P2 cards & had never ever thought that Panny will have this limid life answer ti us :D its like they are telling us ... You wanted cheap P2 cards now eat this :D

[puredrifting]

Choice is always a good thing.

EX1 users buy a $6,500.00 camera and have a choice to use SxS cards or SD cards.

Users who are not pros or don't have enough money to afford P2 for long run times can shoot SD cards with the HMC150.

HPX300 users have the choice to lower the spec of the signal to a non full raster codec with 4:2:0 (AVCIntra 50) in order to double recording times on their P2 cards.

Now P2 users have a choice in lifespan and data rate with their P2 cards. P2 cards are now at a very reasonable price level for gigantic storage and that is always a cool thing. 64GB is a lot of space and at under $1,000.00? Panasonic will sell a ton of them.

Dan

[alexdias]

Panasonic will sell a ton of them.

Oh Yeah!!!

[ChipG]

seriesly there should have been atleast 5000 rewrite cycles posible on E ... Woah not another debate but just a thought



There will be, just trying to plan for what goes on in my small little world.

FYI, I almost jumped ship by 5 days until Panny announced new cards. Whhewww..................

[dregenthal]

May be some whako jacko Engg will evolve a break the coding to allow the E series to be written ateast 8-10k times as MLC memory is supposed to. seriesly there should have been atleast 5000 rewrite cycles posible on E ... Woah not another debate but just a thought


I'm not that technically inclined so there's at least a 50% chance I could be wrong on this but the way I am getting the lifecycle/warning indicator is kinda like a "quality" rating (freshness label?) . . .

What I mean is that the manufacturer is telling us that after a certain point the medium is subject to become unreliable (and they're feeling pretty safe up to this point). Doesn't mean you can't write on it indefinately . . . just that "your milage may vary."

I'd almost bet that the average bear's (sorry Kevin) odds of exceeding the service life on the new "E" card in or around 5 years would be something close to zero anyway. Wonder what P2 capacities will be in 2014? This is not something I'm going to lay awake at night pondering.

Best.

[Big Brother]

I'm not that technically inclined so there's at least a 50% chance I could be wrong on this but the way I am getting the lifecycle/warning indicator is kinda like a "quality" rating (freshness label?) . . .

What I mean is that the manufacturer is telling us that after a certain point the medium is subject to become unreliable (and they're feeling pretty safe up to this point). Doesn't mean you can't write on it indefinately . . . just that "your milage may vary."

I'd almost bet that the average bear's (sorry Kevin) odds of exceeding the service life on the new "E" card in or around 5 years would be something close to zero anyway. Wonder what P2 capacities will be in 2014? This is not something I'm going to lay awake at night pondering.

Best.
i think JAN told that P2 E will stop recording after 1825 cycles (seems like its been s/w locked to avoid it eating into sales of COSTLIER P2 A series cards :D ) I would be happy to shoot more than 1825 times for sure at least 5000times !

May be when we all see HD moving into 4K realm we night get about 1TB (may be for about 10,000$) space P2 cards. I think panasonic is largly dependent on 3rd party SDHC card makers cox ultimately its what their cards are carried under Panasonic Brands. SO we might need to watch how much capacity cards are geting out in SDHC category.

:violin:

[ChipG]

i think JAN told that P2 E will stop recording after 1825 cycles (seems like its been s/w locked to avoid it eating into sales of COSTLIER P2 A series cards :D ) I would be happy to shoot more than 1825 times for sure at least 5000times !



:violin:

Lots of confusion about this.

I'm sure she will clarify after she sleeps for a week (Vegas :))

[shapna]

Hi Jan,

What about loop mode?

I will have a dash cam running for 10 hours a day in loop. Will my card be toast in 180 days? Will it count the one offload as just one of the 1825 cycles or will it get 10 cycles per day on it (64 gig card)? If it's a 16 gig card would this mean it gets 4 cycles per hour so 40 cycles per a 10 hour day in loop (I shoot in 1080) so a 16 gig E series would be toast in 45 days or will it count a cycle as just one offload no matter how long it loops for?

Even if you buy a 16 gb "A" P2 card ($800) against a 32gb "E" P2 Card ( $610) you can film 10 hour in less than 20 cycles. so lets say you work 10 hour per day, how many hours are you recording?? 6 or 7 top, because you have to eat, stop to review the footage, etc. So actually this becomes to less than 15 cycles por day saying, that a averege people works 5 days a week. this becomes into 200 day of durability. I think this is a pretty good number for the price range you are paying for a 32gb p2card. Sorry for my english.

Best Damian

[ChipG]

Even if you buy a 16 gb "A" P2 card ($800) against a 32gb "E" P2 Card ( $610) you can film 10 hour in less than 20 cycles. so lets say you work 10 hour per day, how many hours are you recording?? 6 or 7 top, because you have to eat, stop to review the footage, etc. So actually this becomes to less than 15 cycles por day saying, that a averege people works 5 days a week. this becomes into 200 day of durability. I think this is a pretty good number for the price range you are paying for a 32gb p2card. Sorry for my english.

Best Damian

Shapna, I appreciate your input but you couldn't be more wrong about my workflow and shooting situation. My dash cams will run for 10+ hours a day even through lunch on a live action adventure reality show. No viewing the footage just download it and put the card back in the camera, a 16 gig card would cycle a min of 40 times a day however if panny is reading this post they can do a easy fix by having a 30sec to 1 min prerecord built into the camera instead of 3 sec for hd. That would solve my high cycle rate situation and probably most people who use loop.

[dregenthal]

Shapna, I appreciate your input but you couldn't be more wrong about my workflow and shooting situation. My dash cams will run for 10+ hours a day even through lunch on a live action adventure reality show. No viewing the footage just download it and put the card back in the camera, a 16 gig card would cycle a min of 40 times a day however if panny is reading this post they can do a easy fix by having a 30sec to 1 min prerecord built into the camera instead of 3 sec for hd. That would solve my high cycle rate situation and probably most people who use loop.

It would be my guess that yours is not the most likely shooting scenario for the bulk of us . . .

In any event I find it unlikely that a lot of people with paying projects are going to "bet the ranch" on only one card -- making this entire concern almost meaningless.

(but that's what we do, isn't it?).

Best.