New CMOS Canon Pro-Sumer cam Rumors

[Dmitry Yun]

Canon Rumors and Gizmodo has recently posted this.
Interchangeable EOS lenses CMOS sensor sub 8000$ pro-sumer camcorder

http://i.gizmodo.com/5190397/canon-adopting-dslr-chips-for-a-new-pro-camcorder

Could be the explanation why no 24p on the T1i or the 5D mark II. Things are getting interesting. :)

[LuckyStudio 13]

Red better hustle up and finish and release the Scarlet.

[booggerg2]

Canon is a badass company.

[Awake-In-Anamorphic]

Sweet. I expect a lot of competition for this level of camera. Canon is incredibly reliable though, and might be hard to beat.

[jeff9329]

That's going to be a huge step for Canon. I hope it releases in 2010, but I wouldn't count on it. The H1s is still fairly new.

New ground for Canon video:

CMOS
tapeless
a new codec implementation (NLE compatability?)
maybe SDXC storage?
a progressive sensor
An APS-C sensor will allow for major DOF compared to a 1/3" sensor camera. That's going to be some lens implementation, and/or manual focus only.


It really needs to trump the EX-1/3 bigtime, or what's the point.

[dcloud]

wouldnt that pretty much kill their xlh1 line?

[Captain Pierce]

My guess is that there's enough people who A) hate CMOS and B) want tape (assuming that this would be AVCHD and presumably therefore using SD memory cards) to keep the H1 series going, at least in the short term. It would be similar, at least in theory, to the situation with Panasonic having the HPX300 and HPX500 co-existing...

[Nik Manning]

Just a rumor. This doesn't make Canon a Bad Ass company it makes them a company. Bad Ass is leading the way like Panasonic always has. I can't applaud them for crippling the Rebel and 5d Mark II. They are just a company. Business first with them. Next 2 years will be filled with Prosumer cams with DSLR sensors. This same announcement could have been from any company.

[dadoboy]

Yes, I agree Panasonic's video division tends to be leaders and risk takers.
Even though this is just a rumor, it is true that the Japanese industrials are considering single chip APS or full frame camcorder solutions - they already have one in the high end Sony F35. Though they are far more conservative than a company like RED, they dominate the camera and video markets because they know what the customer wants. And with the excitement over RED's Scarlet and the prevalence of 35mm adapter use, these market trends must inform these industrial giants that we really want control over Depth of Field on top of great image quality.

Why are the Japanese so good at this while American giants flounder? Maybe that's just a rhetorical question.

[jeff9329]

wouldnt that pretty much kill their xlh1 line?

I think this would be a totally divergent line from the XH-A1 & the XL H1. Mainly due to:


Cost
DOF/lens/auto-focus issues
storage
Target market (?)
I still see another niche for a Canon A1 similar to the EX-1 with:


lower price point
attached zoom lens
1/2" native progressive full res sensor (with less DOF, easier focus, than an APS-C)
tapeless, since tape only supports up to 1440X1080
When you start comparing the rumored camera to a mainstream camera that they still need to produce, it makes me wonder if it will happen.

[Robert Sanders]

Just a rumor. This doesn't make Canon a Bad Ass company it makes them a company. Bad Ass is leading the way like Panasonic always has. I can't applaud them for crippling the Rebel and 5d Mark II. They are just a company. Business first with them. Next 2 years will be filled with Prosumer cams with DSLR sensors. This same announcement could have been from any company.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't, eh?

[jeff9329]

Next 2 years will be filled with Prosumer cams with DSLR sensors.

That's just not going to happen.

Mainly because there is just a very small market for it. The people on these forums are part of a very small niche of techies.

And also because of the lens issues associated with developing an autofocusing and wide ranging focal length lens for these larger size sensors.

[Humanoid Typhoon]

No type of date. Getting me all worked up for nothing :(.

For what I do, I don't care for CMOS chips although others seem to deal with the issues. Cmon Canon, release something to compete with the EX1!

[Humanoid Typhoon]

After thinking all this thru, I'm not excited about this rumor for MY application (weddings). I'd much rather have something along the lines of a HMC150 from canon with comparable lowlight and I'd be happy. CCD of course.

[Noel Evans]

Weather youve owned a Red or not, like Red or not - they certainly have contributed to the changing face of cameras.

[Zephyrnoid]

Twas bound to happen. I predicted it and that RED would be facing a bad 2009. Both seem to have come to fruition. It's a natural evolutionary process. Lessons learned:
1) Telegraphing innovations that are in the pipeline too far ahead of release is like suicide
2) Established players always seem to get the upper hand, so sell to them before they kill you
3) The market for short-run high priced exotica is small and the risk of market evaporation is high if an unforseen (like a recession maybe) suddenly appears.
Survivors always capture both the entry level and connoisseur .

[ZzBog]

Any predictions on when this can happen?

Like which event?

[Robert Sanders]

If the rumors are just now hitting then I'd say during NAB. If I remember correctly, the XLH1 was announced in New York a week or so before NAB three years ago.

Also, if this rumor is real then I'm pretty positive it got leaked directly by Canon. It was most likely a way of quelling frustration over the 5D and Rebel XTI and their lack of controls. Also, Canon wouldn't have leaked it if they weren't preparing an announcement soon. Remember, Canon did the same thing with H1 because of the furor over the HVX's debut. From what I heard the H1 was supposed to come out six months to a year later than planned. I suspect Canon is being forced to the table earlier than expected once again. Only this time it's because of their own photo products rather than a rival manufacturer. Again, if the rumor is true and it was leaked by Canon.

[/speculation]

[Emanuel]

Robert,

I don't remember exactly about NAB actually, but it certainly could just be four years not three years ago (when I placed my reservation on the RED ONE). The time runs fast. :laugh:

BTW, the first footage was released in September. These are the first news from Chris Hurd's website, as usual:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-xl-h-series-hdv-camcorders/51052-today-day.html

September 2005. First hands-on by Kaku, succeeding Michael (Pappas), Barlow (Elton), bringing confusion to the Jarred's horde. Before HVX, now new RED lineup.

Moreover (IMHO), RED owner's reiteration now on the «no additional slip to the target schedule» (counteracting and reverting a recent slowing down -- 'cause economy etc) can have an easy explanation: 2009 4Q. New Canon's release. APS-C sensor size in a dedicated (under $8000) video camera. New (AF) lineup lenses, etc.

Granted the 'smoke', it can be beyond a vague guess. Do not forget where Jon Sagud (RED team nowadays) is coming from.

[OSV]

without a real zoom lens, this new camera won't be able to compete with your typical prosumer camcorder... which makes it a niche product.

maybe canon will come to their senses, and give us an option for some real video camera glass for this thing.

[reem12]

I think red has made its point as well as served as a catalyst for the new wave of indi cameras that will soon be ushured in by the the giant more reputable companies like panasonic, canon, and sony at afraction of the cost that it would take to support and manage a full blown red.

Also keep in mind, the big companies have the mass production power. Once one of these bigger companies decides to pull the trigger on the technology they already have, say by by to red.

I believe if many of us could only get the resolution and image that comes from the canon 5d and mark II that would be enough for the mass majority of us.

[Robert Sanders]

I think Canon and RED could easily co-exist together (if Canon decides to pull the trigger).

RED's big calling card is REDCODE RAW and providing a full RAW 4K workflow. Plus PL mount glass. $20-40k with all the bells and whistles.

Canon's proposed Camera could easily offer something different. 35mm DOF on a large chip with a nice 1080p RGB workflow. $8-15k with all the bells and whistles.

Two completely different systems. Two completely different demos. For me, because I'm currently producing very low budget movies and enjoy camera ownership, the Canon could be my dream camera.

[Rough Cut]

I think Canon and RED could easily co-exist together (if Canon decides to pull the trigger).

If you want a taste of what Canon is going to do (hopefully) take a long and serious look at the sleeper and under-the-radar just released consumer HFS-100 and the HFS-10 (To be released on April 15th).

I just received a HFS-100 and I was blown away by the results. It has a 8.59MP CMOS which for video gets cropped to just over 6.0 MP. It records full raster 1920 x 1080 down sampled from the 6.0 MP image. It separates RGB by the use of a RGB Primary Color Filter. It has Canon’s brand new DIGIC DV III image processor. It records to SDHC memory cards at the ACVHD max of 24 Mbps. It has mic in, headphone out, HDMI out, cine-mode, 24P and 30P recording .

From Canon:

“The VIXIA HF S100 uses an RGB Primary Color Filter with Bayer Placement Pattern that separates light into red, green and blue color components. This results in vibrant images with deep, rich, accurate color and natural-looking tones similar to what you'd obtain from 3CCD camcorders. In addition, the Bayer Placement Pattern delivers sharp, high definition images with true-to-life color reproduction. As an added benefit, the CMOS sensor provides outstanding image capture in low light conditions.”

The results you may ask? I shot half day both outdoors and in. Imported via Final Cut Pro 6.05 into Proress 422. And, with astonishment, viewed the results via Blackmagic Designs Multibridge Pro HDMI out to a Samsung 52 inch HDTV.

Blows away the HVX-200 in many respects and especially in low light. I have one, so I can make that comparison.

Before any of you get your poison pen out, you better go look at the footage. Sure it’s a consumer cam, whatever that means these days, but look at the footage and remember that this quality is coming out of a camera with an MSRP of $1099.00.

Now imagine the HF S100/HF S10 on steroids in a much more appealing package that a professional can use. If Canon is smart, and I believe they are, they will introduce a camera that will be as revolutionary to film-making as the XL-1 was in the late 1990s.

[Noel Evans]

Well personally I feel if Canon/Pana/Sony bought out a product with a decent codec(and thats big if) that was a direct competitor to Red, people would buy Canon/Pana/Sony.

And heres why. Around me I hear plenty of whining about Red. These arent my words. A rental company that got jack of Red, because they always had to keep one in shop as backup on every rental. People complaining about ongoing workflow issues. People afraid that theres no local support (Im in Australia). People disappointed in Reds release program, in so far as the early iterations weren't full functional.

As I said these arent my words, but I hear one of these from every person I speak to who has used Red or knows someone that did. Now weather its the current actual reality or not is a moot point, the world is based on perception.

And its exactly the same reason many would go with the larger company offering, as their general experience is, available support, more users, more product confidence, less workflow challenges. True or not again, its the reality. EDIT: Sorry I should say - Its the reality of peoples perceptions.

[SPZ]

Noel, the exciting thing here, is that things are really happening. It is a fact that an affordable, S35mm sized sensor Video camera (with all its manual functions) is coming this year bellow 10k. Scarlet is the first announced. The 5d Mark II is the first FF35mm camera that shoots video that CAN be used for cinema shooting (according to a producer friend of mine, owner of a Post-house which handles DI for many Hong-Kong top directors, filmmaker Andrew Lau, Director of Infernal Affairs- Hong Kong version- is shooting a filmwith it), so the Pandora's box has really been opened. It will take time for Panasonic and Sony to restructure their business model for the new market, and probably its not from them that we'll see the biggest innovations in this field, but from Canon, Nikon, and even outsiders like Samsung, Sanyo and Casio, who, seeing how they innovate and compete in the still picture business and are constantly adding more and more complete video capabilities to their models, will lead the way in this new times. These "cinema" cameras will, of course, be for a very niche market, and will not compete with ENG, Event coverage, etc. markets... YET. :) These markets require fast workflows, do not require such DOF control as Cinema needs, fast lens performance and precise monitoring, no Cmos issues, etc.. maybe in 4 to 5 years we'll get there...

[Noel Evans]

SPZ yeah well youre right about that. And as youre a friend of Andrew Lau, let him know how much I enjoyed Infernal Affairs - much more than the "other" version.

[SPZ]

SPZ yeah well youre right about that. And as youre a friend of Andrew Lau, let him know how much I enjoyed Infernal Affairs - much more than the "other" version.

No, you got it wrong!! I'm no friend to Andrew Lau. Read carefully my post- A producer friend of mine (owner of one of the biggest HK digital post production houses and responsible for some of Andrew Lau's DIntermediate film processing and post production) told me this. Would love to know Andrew personally. I agree, the Hong-Kong film was way better than the Scorcese one. Being a Scorcese fan, I feel terrible that such a remarkable filmmaker got awarded on a film he practically "ripped off", to the point of being, in certain scenes, shot by shot identical to Andrew's film.

He recently shot a film over here in Macau. A Romantic Comedy that's average,but its fantastically shot. Worth a look to see the cinematic potential of this place :)

EDIT- I'll rephrase the confusing sentence on the other post to avoid misunderstandings.

[Robert Sanders]

If you want a taste of what Canon is going to do (hopefully) take a long and serious look at the sleeper and under-the-radar just released consumer HFS-100 and the HFS-10 (To be released on April 15th).

Very, very interesting. I completely dismissed the HFS-100 as something I would never use or buy because it doesn't address my immediate needs. But now that I've gone over and taken another look at it, I think you're right that this is part of a puzzle piece we're all trying to put together in order to figure out what Canon's truly up to.

A while back I had a gut feeling Canon might actually build my dream camera. Then I started to doubt that it would actually happen. And now I'm getting excited again.

[OSV]

Very, very interesting. I completely dismissed the HFS-100 as something I would never use or buy because it doesn't address my immediate needs. But now that I've gone over and taken another look at it, I think you're right that this is part of a puzzle piece we're all trying to put together in order to figure out what Canon's truly up to.

A while back I had a gut feeling Canon might actually build my dream camera. Then I started to doubt that it would actually happen. And now I'm getting excited again.

check out the resolution test numbers on these new canon consumer camcorders, it's a real shocker... incredible bang for the buck.

[Robert Sanders]

Amazing how great Canon can do and then trip on their own shoe laces on the very last step.