General Feedback

[Chris_Keaton]

Here are some things I've noticed in a few screenplays.

* Too much detail and excessive prose. Some of these could be shorter and tighter if it weren't for this. If your action blocks are 5 lines or more then there is a good chance that it's crammed with to much crap or it needs to be two blocks. Think of an action blocks like a snapshot of what the camera is seeing. If you are focusing on two different character's actions then this should be two blocks, unless you intend for them both to be in the scene at the same time. Oh, and you aren't writing a novel so only write what you can see and do that in as little words as possible.

* Keep your action active. Lose 'IS', 'BEGINS', 'STARTS', and most words ending in 'ING'. Mind your tense, everything is a film is happening now. This keeps your writing interesting and compelling. We can't see someone start something, but we sure can see them DO something.

* Lose adverbs. They are rarely helpful and most of the times not even needed. If they are needed rewrite until they aren't.

* I know a lot of you may be thinking of filming your screenplays which are great, but keep all the camera direction and stuff out until you write the shooting script. This is a distraction from your story and you have to sell your story first.

* Formatting guidelines can be found in any book or self-help site, so I won't bother with that. There were, I think, a couple screenplays that cheated their margins to fit in ten pages, but if the writer would have headed some of the advice above this wouldn't be necessary. And frankly I find if I have to trim my pieces down within a certain time limit I usually end up with a better product.

That's all for now. Anyone have any more general feedback?

[seansshack]

Spot on advice.

[Chris_Keaton]

Some western feedback. I know some of you have done this. When did cowboys duel? I always thought they were quick draw contests, not Victorian era duels? I could be wrong, because westerns aren't my bag.

[arroway]

it's almost completely a thing of lore. they mostly just shot each other in the back.

:laugh:

[seansshack]

another tip - only use one type of font. drop the use of bold.

[Chris_Keaton]

I can't believe there was only two sci-fi westerns. I'm sorely disappointed.

[TimCollins]

I can't believe there were only two horror westerns =[

[Rustom Irani]

I can't believe I haven't read the other two yet. ;P

[lawriejaffa]

I cant believe there was just one haggis western!

[DarkElastic]

I suppose my script could be counted as sci-fi... So three Sci-Fi westerns woo hoo.

[Tim Joy]

I have one thing that really bugs me, and turns me off to these script-fests as a "reader of all scripts". Some people might not like me for saying this, but-

BEGIN RANT-

If you write your screenplay the night before the deadline, or you're on the 1st or 2nd draft, you are WASTING peoples valuable time here. I have read quite a few scripts that contain multiple typos and mistakes, and are obviously a rough draft.
First off, once I see a typo, it reads as completely amateur from then on. There is no excuse, in my book, for such mistakes. If you can't even take the time to properly proof-read your script, why should I read it?!!?
Secondly, it's a disservice to the writers who take the time to deliver their best effort and need the feedback, and for them to be in amongst the other muck posing as something good is a hinderance.

I realize, being a procrastinator myself, that sometimes it takes an imminent deadline to motivate any actions, so if you DO submit a rough draft, please state it so on the title page, so people will know the status of your script. You'll still get feedback from the people that do have time to critique your draft, and not waste the time of others that don't.

I think it would be nice if this were stated in the rules for the next one.

What is a rough draft? Hard to say.
I personally consider any draft below # 5-6 to be rough, and usually end up calling my scripts locked at drafts 8-10+. Unless you are Aaron Sorkinn, I think you're kidding yourself if you have a final draft on your 2nd or 3rd attempt. ( I bet Aaron rewrites even more than 10)

What I'm calling "re-writing" is not just dotting some I's and crossing T's or running spell-check either, it's when you evolve the script to a better place, cut out unnecessary dialog and description, clarify what is left in order to improve the story. By the time you are done, you would hardly recognize that the 9th draft evolved from the 1st.*

*This is my personal opinion, and my experience so far. I don't claim to be any kind of writing guru or master, so your results may vary.

END RANT.

[Chris_Keaton]

I thought 'Slave Moon' was done at six, but it appears I could trim down the fight scene even more.

[lawriejaffa]

I think Chris mentioned the most obvious technical points!

Regarding typos - early drafts being a waste of peoples time - i can kinda see that view point - but a lot of people may have this semblance of error simply because there new, or because the spell checker doesnt work (im terrible for typos!)

A lot of people also join in just because its fun - the festival has a kind of cute online carnival like atmosphere - though overall its a forum for serious discussion and feedback too.

The only scripts i really struggled to get through were those that formatted incorrectly in conversion etc.

[CallaghanFilms]

Regarding typos -
...a waste of peoples time... people's
...simply because there new... they're
...spell checker doesnt work (im terrible for typos!)... doesn't


:evil::evil::evil:

[Tim Joy]

I think Chris mentioned the most obvious technical points!

Regarding typos - early drafts being a waste of peoples time - i can kinda see that view point - but a lot of people may have this semblance of error simply because there new, or because the spell checker doesnt work (im terrible for typos!)
you dont say... :)

Typos are just a little red flag to me that they could've put more time into it. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad script. I did see a couple GOOD scripts with one or two typos. (yours, for example, I think) I will certainly overlook typos for great writing.



A lot of people also join in just because its fun - the festival has a kind of cute online carnival like atmosphere - though overall its a forum for serious discussion and feedback too.


It's not fun when I'm reading something that is painful to trudge through and I have a hard time coming up with any positive comment about it. :furious3:

EDIT- Ha ha Callaghan. you beat me to it.

[RodThompson]

I have one thing that really bugs me, and turns me off to these script-fests as a "reader of all scripts". Some people might not like me for saying this, but-

BEGIN RANT-

If you write your screenplay the night before the deadline, or you're on the 1st or 2nd draft, you are WASTING peoples valuable time here. I have read quite a few scripts that contain multiple typos and mistakes, and are obviously a rough draft.
First off, once I see a typo, it reads as completely amateur from then on. There is no excuse, in my book, for such mistakes. If you can't even take the time to properly proof-read your script, why should I read it?!!?
Secondly, it's a disservice to the writers who take the time to deliver their best effort and need the feedback, and for them to be in amongst the other muck posing as something good is a hinderance.

I realize, being a procrastinator myself, that sometimes it takes an imminent deadline to motivate any actions, so if you DO submit a rough draft, please state it so on the title page, so people will know the status of your script. You'll still get feedback from the people that do have time to critique your draft, and not waste the time of others that don't.

I think it would be nice if this were stated in the rules for the next one.

What is a rough draft? Hard to say.
I personally consider any draft below # 5-6 to be rough, and usually end up calling my scripts locked at drafts 8-10+. Unless you are Aaron Sorkinn, I think you're kidding yourself if you have a final draft on your 2nd or 3rd attempt. ( I bet Aaron rewrites even more than 10)

What I'm calling "re-writing" is not just dotting some I's and crossing T's or running spell-check either, it's when you evolve the script to a better place, cut out unnecessary dialog and description, clarify what is left in order to improve the story. By the time you are done, you would hardly recognize that the 9th draft evolved from the 1st.*

*This is my personal opinion, and my experience so far. I don't claim to be any kind of writing guru or master, so your results may vary.

END RANT.


While I did REWRITE mine the last night before the contest, due to a horrible shit-chance of luck and a bad motherboard...I did proof the hell out of it. Does that mean that I closed it and opened it over and over and called it a X numbered draft? No.

I rewrote it almost word for word from memory because I've got it like that. From there with a little extra stuff I came up with, I ended with 12 pages not including title page. So I went back NUMEROUS times and with every reread, I took something worthless out, and found something that needed to be fix, ala typos and grammaticals. The page break and (CONT) errors were a fault of the conversion of which I had no control over since I don't speak ADOBISH.

Having said that, I don't think I have written the greatest western of the fest, but my reviews also state that I have not written the worst. So in this, one can't completely count last minute entries completely out of the quality pool. It's what the author does with those last few minutes that counts.

[Tim Joy]

So I went back NUMEROUS times and with every reread, I took something worthless out, and found something that needed to be fix, ala typos and grammaticals. The page break and (CONT) errors were a fault of the conversion of which I had no control over since I don't speak ADOBISH.

Having said that, I don't think I have written the greatest western of the fest, but my reviews also state that I have not written the worst. So in this, one can't completely count last minute entries completely out of the quality pool. It's what the author does with those last few minutes that counts.

"...don't speak ADOBISH" Now THAT's great writing! :D

You obviously spent a lot of time on your script, and enjoyed it and gave it very high marks indeed, so no, last minute entries are not necessarily low quality.
Also, I always print out each draft, mark it up with the red pen, then when I fix it in the computer, I assign a new draft #. If you prefer to make revisions on the computer it makes it difficult to assign draft numbers I s'Pose, then how do you know when you get to 10? :)

It may have been a blessing in disguise that you had to rewrite it from memory. You probably only remembered the good parts!

[lawriejaffa]

So long as irony iznt lost on you :P muhahahaa

[RodThompson]

It may have been a blessing in disguise that you had to rewrite it from memory. You probably only remembered the good parts!

Actually, the problem I have with memory is that for days, not weeks or longer, just days after I write something, the dialogue is stuck in my head. I may lose the exact action lines, but its like when you watch a movie 15 times in one day, you just remember the words and where the character's were when they said them.

So I remember the conversation on the wagon, though "they ride on wagon" may have been replaced by, "a wagon rides on they!" :evil:

[TimCollins]

I don't think these are a waste of time even if they do contain a typo here or there. There's still valuable criticism to be given beyond the mundane typo that could help the writer regardless of what draft it is.

I do agree that quick proof-reads can be done but I wouldn't call reading any of them a waste of time.

[leepback]

Ok here’s some comments from a newcomer that missed the fest but was so interested in getting in on the carnival atmosphere that Lawrie mentioned above, that I wrote something anyway, my very first written script (see my sig).

Hell I aint even a writer but this looked like a hoot.

I realise this is a place to learn and hone one’s skills so I hope this doesn't come across as too harsh but as mentioned many times here "candy coating" doesn't help, so.......

Many of the scripts I read and I've now read most, were fairly clichéd (probably including my own) and lacking a real need to be told. Several had a thin premise padded out with actions and some flowery descriptions. As I said I'm new here with a hell of a lot to learn but I thought a lot of these presented more like short stories that may be made into films rather than actual scripts.

I am probably way off target but for example to describe in detail the type of sweat on someone’s brow seems a little excessive as I thought the director of the film would make the call as to how that was presented and a simple line like “sweat develops on his brow” would suffice. I think the writer in many of you tries too hard to make it sound good rather than think about what the audience is actually seeing and how your writing will affect that vision. Hey don’t get me wrong I read some great descriptive wordings and they were cleverly written but I thought that they were only supposed to be instructions for the filmmakers. OK if it gives it a bit of an atmosphere then perhaps so.

As for the clichéd, saloons, trains, bandits and excellent marksmanship that meant every shot was in the middle of the forehead, that’s probably very understandable for a couple of reasons. Firstly the need to include a gunfight often puts us down that path and secondly the only experience or knowledge most of us have of that era is the movies we have seen in the past, all recycled thousands of times. Sure we could do some research but as it looks like most had trouble coming up with the time to even finish it so I doubt many had a lot of time for such research and a new angle. To find something fresh in this well covered genre would be amazing but I think a few people have done a relatively good job in that area.

With regard to these being scripts for later filming, I’m sure many of you are limiting the feasibility of this ever happening due to the extreme costs associated with shooting such outrageous action scenes. Sure the genre once again can account for this but there are only a few here that could be done on a tight budget. I suppose it comes down to what you want out of this. Personally this is just a fun occasional hobby and I have no expectations but even so I try and develop things that could be filmed at a no budget level. Perhaps the freedom of this just being a scriptfest allows everybody’s sensibilities to run away from him or her and maybe I should just join that mindset and write big as well.

Another thing that has been mentioned many times is the grammar and spelling. I’m not so hot myself and do use spell checker when I remember but jeez there were some bad errors out there. Can’t believe how many people use the wrong “there” “their” and “they’re” or “to” and “too” and even “then” and “than”. Sometimes it’s a typo but then it’s repeated several times. I accept typos and word misuse in threads, sms and emails but surely a submitted script should near perfect in this sense.

As for formatting I’m a total beginner and just cherry-picked what looked correct but it does seem a good idea to get this down as best one can. I’ll be looking at CELTEX(?) and having a play with it to get better at this side of things.

OK, I’ve probably been a bit too big for my boots and will get my Comeuppance any minute now and feel the hot lead from somebody’s double barrel. Anyways it has been a fun introduction to your forum and scriptwriting fest and many thanks to those that did take the extra time to read and comment on my script knowing full well that it wasn’t in the competition.

When does voting start or has it already and I just can see where. Do you have to be in the comp to vote?

Good luck to all and I can’t wait for the next fest.

BTW: Lawrie has this post got rid of my “blitheness” yet?

[Chris_Keaton]

Hey Leepback, your observations were good.

Now I do have a problem with the budget thing. Sure you should write with the mind of having it shot, but sometimes it's nice just to write a good script. Yes, budget may kill it, but maybe someday someone will want it.

I've sent around a sci-fi piece for Quest Fest that most people who read it loved. They just can't figure out how to do it right. I know it will eventually find the right home. This is when I realized there is more to a screenplay getting made than just a good story. Once all the pieces fit then it should be magic. So write cheap screenplays, but also write from your heart every once and awhile.

[jamiejay]

so...this was only my third script ever and i am no expert, especially in the technical aspects, so i can't begin to make general criticisms.

everyone has a valid script worth entering... whether they had typos, cliches, or over-description.

we are all still learning here and it is supposed to be for the feedback, to get your writing out there for people to read, and for the enjoyment of writing... some of us may take it more seriously than others and some of us may actually plan to try to film a script... but let's not discount anyone who entered for any reason...not that anyone was doing that, but i just hope no one feels like they shouldn't have bothered entering (even if they end up in last place). it is a learning and sharing experience first and foremost.

the only general feedback i will give is to tell everyone to keep writing! there is some amazing writing talent in every script fest and i really enjoy being a part of it. :beer:

[leepback]

everyone has a valid script worth entering... whether they had typos, cliches, or over-description.

we are all still learning here and it is supposed to be for the feedback, to get your writing out there for people to read, and for the enjoyment of writing...

the only general feedback i will give is to tell everyone to keep writing!

I hope I haven't over stepped the mark. At three scripts your way more qualified than I am.

My intent was not to discourage but merely add honest feedback.
I had been chided before for being too brief in my reviews.

As I have stated I'm not particularly good with words so if my feedback looks as though it suggests anybody should quit then I have given the wrong impression completely.

[leepback]

...also write from your heart every once and awhile.

Yes, I think I touched on that point. Sort of fun to let your head go.

Obviously budget is always going to be a big concern re sci-fi but cgi software and skills availability is certainly starting to close that gap.

Good luck shopping your script around.

[jamiejay]

I hope I haven't over stepped the mark. At three scripts your way more qualified than I am.

My intent was not to discourage but merely add honest feedback.
I had been chided before for being too brief in my reviews.

As I have stated I'm not particularly good with words so if my feedback looks as though it suggests anybody should quit then I have given the wrong impression completely.


no... not at all. ;)

all feedback is helpful, and you did touch on important points....and you weren't even the only one to say things that needed to be worked on...

i just want to be sure people don't take any feedback the wrong way and that they realize that, even though they may have aspects they need to work on, they should listen to the constructive feedback and try to improve their craft for next time. no matter what, every entry adds something to the fest.

i still am planning to read and review your script as well... glad you plan on entering next time!

jamie :beer:

[leepback]

... glad you plan on entering next time!

Hell yeh. This Fest is brilliant

This has gotta be the cheapest way to dip your toes into part of the film making process. It only costs your time and doesn't hit the hip pocket at all. Well not until you try and film it.

[lawriejaffa]

No no your still being blithe ;) hehe

I think most of what your saying is right - and actually its not uncommon either for new participants to come in and 'talk it straight' as it were - 'to the point' in their criticisms.

Nothing wrong with it - i think its amusing how you start your points with *country twang* 'well now, i ain't no fancy city lawyer but i think...' hehe. Incidentally NJPage and Natasha (and possibly more) wrote their first scripts with this fest too.

Actually these points i think are much better than some of the fluff in your film feedback (just imo since we're being 'blunt') and there in lies the danger of being too blunt. It can ruffle people up who unexpectedly have opposing but valid opinions - especially if you will eventually compete with them :P

I don't think anyone intends to enter a script that just plainly sucks - and so its inevitable that if one is deemed a bit rubbish that most comments will kinda of indicate that (politely and constructively!) I'ts as much a challenge to make good feedback as it is to write good scripts.

1) Shots between the eyes (true true!) but will films stop having 'shots' like this in them just because of their familiarity?

2) Production Costs. Good point and i did think this last time as i wrote (for myself) what would be a microbudget script. This time i wrote a higher budget piece, while others wrote basically high budget studio style action films constrained in shorts. To each his own - but i think for practical function its good to write something that could be produced but at the same time - its fun to let the imagination run free. They also prove popular in the contests i think:)

[leepback]

G'day Lawrie.


i think its amusing how you start your points with *country twang*

Well surely as a UK citizen you know were not so sophisticated down here in the colonies yet.


Actually these points i think are much better than some of the fluff in your film feedback (just imo since we're being 'blunt')

I was a bit scared to say too much for fear of upsetting individuals. Hey why upset one when I can upset all thirty or so at once. I'm all for economy. Seriously though it was not directed at any particular scripts as a lot of them have rolled into the one confusing western epic now residing in my head.


I don't think anyone intends to enter a script that just plainly sucks

Totally agree and I reckon everyone submitting a script has heaps of courage to do so.
Hey I've read all but two up to this point and have read them all through until the end so each of them had something in them to keep me reading.


I'ts as much a challenge to make good feedback as it is to write good scripts.

Have to disagree with you on this one.
It's definitely not as hard.
No its about five times harder imo.



its fun to let the imagination run free.

You're right, and in this sphere it is free as it costs no extra to go big.
I guess as someone that likes to do everything (except act) in my short amauterish productions, I always consider what's possible for someone of my technical, financial and time based limitations to actually make and thus I naturally throw in that limitation.

I don't think I have that many great or even good ideas in me so I don't really want to waste any in a setting I couldn't possibly reproduce.

BTW As a regular reviewer that does take time to consider his (often brutally honest) appraisals I'd be honored (crawl crawl) for you to take a look at my script and leave some comments. I don't believe you have done so as yet. Be as tough as you like, I have thick skin and am about as far away from you as it's possible to be without getting into some sort of spacecraft. Of course my cousin "Big Bazza" lives just up the road from you but he's mostly harmless.

[lawriejaffa]

lol sure thing man yeah it will be a pleasure :P - nice joke about the colonies hehe (in terms of sophistication im sure Australia still ahead of our prior North American possessions :P )

My god wait a minute im scottish hehe - the masterplan will be for Scotland - the USA and Australia to coordinate our invasion of England - :P its genius! Our new Empire could even share a combined flag - it would look great :P

Anyway ill post feedback to your script later today - toodles :P

[DarkElastic]

You lot could not co-exist for long enough to invade us!!!! And, now we know there is a possibility of it coming, so we will prepare our borders and reinstall Hadrian's wall.

You may have just caused the re-animation of The Empire. Huzzar!