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CovenantPictures
03-27-2009, 02:41 PM
I arrived at AbleCinetech Burbank to demo the 300, anticipating my rental package for a shoot in 2 weeks.

Right when I turned on the camera, set it to 1080p24, (Barry was right) the skew was absolutely horrible.
As I was doing that, the second unit DP from Deadliest Catch walked up next to me and said "Holy sh*t that's bad. I'd never take that out in the field."

Then one of the salesmen said that they had done further tests on the camera and the "noise is disgusting" on the camera. Perhaps they were trying to point me toward the EX3 for rental/puchase, I don't know.

So I set the 300 in CinegammaD, master ped -9, CineLike matrix, 180deg shutter, and coring 0, and hooked it up to a BT-LH1710 monitor. I AB-ed the camera with the hpx3000 and EX1, and yes the noise was fairlybad in the tones below the 20 or 30 IRE range. Perhaps it was my settings or the monitor. The EX1 looked eerily clean compared to the 300, and of course the 3000 looked beautiful. I then did kind of an unorthodox test comparing the hpx170 to the 300, by pointed them at the same scene and setting their settings identically. I anticipated the fact that the setting most likely to not correlate directly between the cams, but I just wanted to see their image AB-ed on the monitor.

One thing is certain, you definitely get resolution on this camera. The resolving power and clarity of the image was unbelievable, especially for someone like me used to horizontal subsampling DVCPRO HD. The 170 looked great, but didn't have that 'seeing through the window' look. And the 10bit codec looked great. The information in the highlighted regions of the frame had smooth gradations and seemed to blow out less than the 170. Perhaps it was just my eyes; as I said, this wasn't scientific. The two panny cameras had almost the same amount of noise. But the noise in the 300 seemed to much much less in midtones, but the same in the shadows. Both, of course, are miles above the original 200.

I decided that I will rent this camera, as I'm doing a series of interviews and the camera will not be moving too much. I desperately hope they improve the skew. It's the only thing holding me back from using this on narrative shoots.

But if you want tack sharp, this is the camera for you!:beer:

Noel Evans
03-27-2009, 02:46 PM
Ill be seeing myself first hand next Thursday at a Pana thing. Be interesting to see what they say.

Kenn Christenson
03-27-2009, 03:08 PM
I AB-ed the camera with the hpx3000 and EX1, and yes the noise was fairlybad in the tones below the 20 or 30 IRE range.

I noticed more noise on the 300 in the skew-off examples, too. Of course, this wasn't a production camera.

SPZ
03-28-2009, 01:01 AM
I did a test with the camera yesterday at the Panasonic event in Guanghzou. I need someone to host me the footage. I shot mainly 1080p 25 and did pans and tilts. My opinion is that the camera is quite usable in 1080p 25.

Don't count this camera out in 1080p 25. In 720p it performs veryh closely to a CCD camera, with the added bonus of 1280x720 AVC intra 10 bit 4:2:2.

Noel Evans
03-28-2009, 03:03 AM
I did a test with the camera yesterday at the Panasonic event in Guanghzou. I need someone to host me the footage. I shot mainly 1080p 25 and did pans and tilts. My opinion is that the camera is quite usable in 1080p 25.

Don't count this camera out in 1080p 25. In 720p it performs veryh closely to a CCD camera, with the added bonus of 1280x720 AVC intra 10 bit 4:2:2.

Hmmm good idea. Think Ill take a 64gb p2 card and see if theyll let me shoot some footage? Never know.

lyonfilms
03-28-2009, 09:23 AM
Very brief initial observations. We got the camera in and spent a few hours with it yesterday inside in our studio. We put two boring blog pictures up on our site www.LyonFilms.com/blog. We are in Portland, Oregon so if anyone is close and wants to schedule a real test over the next 10 days or so (with DP Ryan Walters) that is fine with me.

Most of our quick-and-dirty tests were done in, according to Barry, the worst setting in terms of jello (1080 24PN). Yes, without question, when panning quickly there is serious wobble. Yuck. However, similar to the post above regarding 25p being quite usable, we found the same thing. By panning slowly, the camera performed well. Similar to what Phil Bloom and Barry have mentioned, I believe.

We purposely stuck to 1080 24PN b/c we have read it was the most egregious example of skew. Thinking back to, say, our last 10 jobs, I can't really think of a time when we were whip panning the camera. That being said, I REALLY hope that Jan continues to report on the progress of the engineers progress on a new firmware update that might improve the situation. If RED's CMOS and Sony's CMOS can manage the feat, I have faith in Panasonic to do at least as well. Come on - prove the critics wrong! :)

David Saraceno
03-28-2009, 10:18 AM
kevin or ryan: (sorry don't have a name)

I'm over in Spokane, and we shoot everything from events to collegiate sports to ice skating.

Mostly at 720/24p because we currently have a 170.

How was the skew in 720/24p using AVCIntra on moderate pans? If you tested.

Like following a basketball player courtside while dribbling? Or a running back or track meet? Not asking for those tests, but something that might mimic them.

this is about 40% of what we do.

lyonfilms
03-28-2009, 12:25 PM
Due to limited time and bad weather (as I am sure you are aware :)) we had very limited time to test. We will try and knock something out next week, or next weekend.

SPZ
03-29-2009, 01:22 AM
kevin or ryan: (sorry don't have a name)

I'm over in Spokane, and we shoot everything from events to collegiate sports to ice skating.

Mostly at 720/24p because we currently have a 170.

How was the skew in 720/24p using AVCIntra on moderate pans? If you tested.

Like following a basketball player courtside while dribbling? Or a running back or track meet? Not asking for those tests, but something that might mimic them.

this is about 40% of what we do.

From what I saw, It would work in 720p.

SPZ
03-29-2009, 05:34 AM
I'm submittig a video to Vimeo right now with a test shot of 1080p motion. Do not look at the noise or at the exposure, which is all over the place, and it even is Cine V, due to Panasonic changing the order of the scene files in the 300. I purposedly left a gerky move for you to evaluate a quick pan.

Hope this helps. This thing takes ages to upload... It is going for 1 hour +, and its merely one minute!

EDIT- the other upload didn't work for whatever reason. Try this one:

http://www.vimeo.com/3905381

Big Brother
03-29-2009, 07:45 AM
hey i saw it & it said still uploading...even after 5 hours :(

kabtv
03-29-2009, 08:33 AM
same here but it also said:

'' You do not have permission to view this user's videos because they are all private''

SPZ
03-29-2009, 08:59 AM
Ok, I've re-uploaded it. The other one didn't work for whatever reason. Try this link:

http://www.vimeo.com/3905381

SPZ
03-29-2009, 09:35 AM
try it again now. It worked fine for me...

David Saraceno
03-29-2009, 11:32 AM
I'm looking for some skew, and I can't seem to find any.

Cees Mutsaers
03-29-2009, 11:58 AM
why are the panns so jerky (not smooth) or is this just caused by my pc. Is it smooth at your pc?
Neverthelesss I also could not see any skewing :-)

lyonfilms
03-29-2009, 04:44 PM
The clip contains a series of back-and-forth pans, increasing in speed.

The clip was shot on the HPX 300 in AVC-Intra 100 at 24PN at 1080p shutter 1/60.

Clip: http://www.vimeo.com/3913527

SPZ
03-29-2009, 05:52 PM
why are the panns so jerky (not smooth) or is this just caused by my pc. Is it smooth at your pc?
Neverthelesss I also could not see any skewing :-)

Probably because its 25p. Vimeo converts everything to 24p, so that should've been one of the reasons. Its silky smooth on my original file, tough.

And yes, at the speeds of my pans, there was no perceivable skew. I even left one clip unedited whit a fast "reset" pan for you guys to see how much speedier the camera could handle skew. But that's not to say there's no skew! And don't forget this is 1080p 25, not 1080p 24!

Big Brother
03-29-2009, 08:59 PM
http://www.vimeo.com/3773454

pls check the video & possibly let me know as to how would the HPX300 & EX3 react to such lighting. I am a event shooter so i would be obliged if you could shoot/post & post the link to such a video on Vimoe or You tube as 50i...

BB

Joe Shaw
03-30-2009, 12:03 AM
Probably because its 25p. Vimeo converts everything to 24p, so that should've been one of the reasons.

FYI - Vimeo encodes up to 25p now - so you can rule that out.

SPZ
03-30-2009, 12:08 AM
FYI - Vimeo encodes up to 25p now - so you can rule that out.

Well, something went wrong on the the Vimeo conversion, that's for sure. I exported a 90 Meg h264 medium quality 25p file from my final Cut timeline (prores), and put that into Vimeo. I wasn't sure if Vimeo would recognize a Quicktime Prores file, and that one, for one minute, should be around a gigabite, so I compressed it. It played fine on my Octo 2.8ghz Macpro.

David Saraceno
03-30-2009, 10:37 AM
The clip contains a series of back-and-forth pans, increasing in speed.

The clip was shot on the HPX 300 in AVC-Intra 100 at 24PN at 1080p shutter 1/60.

Clip: http://www.vimeo.com/3913527

Is there the same jerkiness in the original footage?

Joe Shaw
03-30-2009, 11:02 AM
The video plays fine for me on Vimeo. It is jerky at first, but when I restart the playback it works fine. Let the film fully buffer, then try playing it.

Check with Vimeo for compatability.

David Saraceno
03-30-2009, 11:45 AM
I did let it fully buffer.

And the slow movements are jerky.

I'm on a T1 watching it.

lyonfilms
03-30-2009, 11:55 AM
Not too sure about the jerky comment above...the original pan was just me tyring to keep a smooth motion, but their may have been some "user error" in the movement. I try to be robotic, but it doesn't always work out. Not sure if it was the transcode from AVC-Intra to Pro Res or if it was the transcode from Pro Res to h.264 or if Vimeo does anything on top of that, but I agree there is more there than when I look at the raw file.

alpi69
03-30-2009, 12:05 PM
doesnīt seem jerky on my side either. there are always compression problems. nothing like the RAW data.

to these pans seem too slow to test the skew. I mean if this would already trigger it one couldnīt use the camera at all.

lyonfilms
03-30-2009, 12:12 PM
at least as far as the Lyon Films clip, the pans get fairly quick toward the end of the posted video. I start out slow, go faster, and end slow again.

David Saraceno
03-30-2009, 01:10 PM
To make certain I'm not "seeing things," the Portland footage is a little jumpy on video, but the original AVCIntra at 1080/24 is not?

And you guys in Portland didn't see much, if any skew, on the warehouse footage in the original QT intermediate transcode from Intra.

hotchkiss
03-30-2009, 02:10 PM
To make certain I'm not "seeing things," the Portland footage is a little jumpy on video, but the original AVCIntra at 1080/24 is not?

And you guys in Portland didn't see much, if any skew, on the warehouse footage in the original QT intermediate transcode from Intra.

Regarding the Portland footage, there is some skew at :57-1:00 as he pans right, past the white warehouse building. The geometry of the building gets a bit twisted... In that situation, the skew is no big deal for me. If I was panning with a moving object, it may be a different matter. On that note, would it be possible to head out to the road and pan with a few vehicles going down the road at 40 mph-ish plus ? That may give us another skew view.

The color and dynamic range on this camera is very purdy.

Thanks Lyon Films for posting.

lyonfilms
03-30-2009, 03:38 PM
I would say that there is, without question, skew. The camera skews for sure. Period. The question is how much and when. The shot we posted was at the widest setting on the lens. Telephoto exaggerates and pronounces the wobble/skew. This concerns me greatly as we own one of the cameras. Now, our main use will be talking head stuff as we use a RED for narrative, or rent for more important shoots, so it isn't huge. But I'm telling you, Panasonic really needs to try and reduce this as much as technically possible with a firmware udpate. The image also seems to be a bit noisy, but within reasonable parameters (it is a 1/3 inch chip with tons of pixels packed into it, so that shouldn't have surprised me as much as it did).

SPZ
03-30-2009, 06:01 PM
I would say that there is, without question, skew. The camera skews for sure. Period. The question is how much and when. The shot we posted was at the widest setting on the lens. Telephoto exaggerates and pronounces the wobble/skew. This concerns me greatly as we own one of the cameras. Now, our main use will be talking head stuff as we use a RED for narrative, or rent for more important shoots, so it isn't huge. But I'm telling you, Panasonic really needs to try and reduce this as much as technically possible with a firmware udpate. The image also seems to be a bit noisy, but within reasonable parameters (it is a 1/3 inch chip with tons of pixels packed into it, so that shouldn't have surprised me as much as it did).

Yes, the noise was also strong on the HPX i tried. Maybe putting it at detail -7 will help? Or adding Detail Coring? But how will this affect the picture, comparing it in detail and noise, to the EX3?