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Big Brother
03-27-2009, 12:26 PM
http://www.ffv.com/page/videoproducts.htm

Do any one have a better idea on this product ... its shoot things on 2.5" HDD giving endless recording on hot swappable HDDs...AB mountable very sleek & smart !

10bit 4:2: Motion Jpeg2000 compression ?? does it rings bells any where

zeke
03-27-2009, 01:41 PM
An article says it's been used extensively on the new Knight Rider show. So it's been field tested. Wonder how much it costs?

edit...list for over 6500 USD at B&H. I'll stick with Convergent Designs.

Or for that price you could get 2 64gig P2 cards plus a hyperdrive, several batteries and removable HDs and still come out costing
less.

Big Brother
03-27-2009, 10:20 PM
but it does 10bit 4:2:2 proper AB mounting seems more compact & portable yes v pricey though but it does gives full juices in return of HPX300 ! I wish if CD XDR was too made with such AB mountable ease ! what does Motion Jpeg 2000 compression means @ 100mbps HD bandwidth ? How close will it be DVCPRO or HD AVC ? Hope Jan help here...

filmat11
03-28-2009, 06:52 AM
I think this device sounds great. I do like the Convergent Designs unit, and it seems pretty tough, but camera mountable, makes this very desirable.
What is the best way to offload this into Final Cut ? Card reader ? ( I'm a shooter and gaffer, not an editor..yet
Old dog, new tricks...)

zeke
03-28-2009, 09:20 AM
I think this device sounds great. I do like the Convergent Designs unit, and it seems pretty tough, but camera mountable, makes this very desirable.
What is the best way to offload this into Final Cut ? Card reader ? ( I'm a shooter and gaffer, not an editor..yet
Old dog, new tricks...)

You get 10bit 4:2:2 with AVC I, the hyperdrive I mentiond is a battery powered CF/SDHC reader with a built in replacable HD. The concept of the Elite HD is great, but there are less expensive options available. With the Elite I think you would also need to acquire the MJpeg2000 codec from somewhere. Unless they include it in the price for boh Windows and Mac. Their site doesn't say. This is in relation to the HPX300, not other cameras.

It might go better with the new JVC HM700 or even the Sony EX line. Since they don't have built in 10bit recording to card options.

Big Brother
03-28-2009, 11:36 AM
as of now we cant use Panny AVCintra directly into FCP it uses Pro Res thing to transcode into FCP editable format. May be we can use the similar codec.

its more desirable for me unless they dont have better $$$ !

Mike Schell
03-31-2009, 06:24 PM
I think this device sounds great. I do like the Convergent Designs unit, and it seems pretty tough, but camera mountable, makes this very desirable.
What is the best way to offload this into Final Cut ? Card reader ? ( I'm a shooter and gaffer, not an editor..yet
Old dog, new tricks...)

Take a look at our upcoming nanoFlash. It is definitely camcorder mountable (about 1 lb) and has support for almost all NLEs without transcode or re-wrap of the data (you can play directly off the CF card). The 100 Mbps Long-GOP or 160 Mbps I-Frame is virtually indistinguisable from uncompressed.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

Big Brother
03-31-2009, 09:20 PM
Take a look at our upcoming nanoFlash. It is definitely camcorder mountable (about 1 lb) and has support for almost all NLEs without transcode or re-wrap of the data (you can play directly off the CF card). The 100 Mbps Long-GOP or 160 Mbps I-Frame is virtually indistinguisable from uncompressed.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

The nanoFlash seems a great product but its cannon be termed as camera mountable but its camera tie able. I wish if CD had made/designed prods camera mountable in a simpler way. Yet, i am waiting for pix of CDXDR/Nano mounted behind any corder in a batt operable way. We dont expect to tie the recorder around the corder & run the combo with a belt battery.'

pls post few pix !

Thx

Paul Bryer
04-01-2009, 09:09 AM
FFV Elite HD: 8"x4.625"x2", 1.25lbs

Flash XDR: 8"x6"x2.5", 2.6lbs

An AB mount plate for the XDR is available from Convergent Design.
Both units require 4-pin XLR power.

The nanoFlash will be smaller and lighter than the Elite HD and will also have the option of an AB mounting plate.

By what logic then is it that the Elite HD is camera-mountable if the XDR and nanoFlash are not?

Also, I'm not sure how you'll get endless recording from the Elite HD seeing as it only has one drive bay, unless it buffers the video whilst you're changing media packs.

As for getting the footage into your computer, the media packs have a USB connection so they just connect like an external hard drive.

Big Brother
04-01-2009, 10:29 AM
I have by far no meaning to demean the CD products. Its just that CD have yet to show us how to mount the Nano flash with AB mounting also the XDR with AB mounting. Where both the units with their respective recorders are running on single corder batt.

I would love to go the Nano way cox of its price point.

hope its clear.

DavidNJ
04-01-2009, 07:33 PM
The on board recorder on the HPX300 is better

Big Brother
04-01-2009, 09:10 PM
Price of CF cards are better or say best when compared to P2 thing. Way to go CD way. I really have no worries if i dont get 10bit 422 in case i want 10bit 422 then i have FVV to go that way. Period.

Mike Schell
04-02-2009, 11:01 AM
We will be showing the AB mount for the nanoFlash at NAB. We already have the power cable to connect from our 4-pin locking Hirose to a D-Tap on the AB battery. Other power cables will be easy to create for the various batteries. Also, give the small size and lightweight of the nanoFlash, you could simply velcro the unit to the back of the battery or other such surface on your camera.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

Mike Schell
04-02-2009, 11:11 AM
The on board recorder on the HPX300 is better

We are working on some comparison images now AVC-I vs 160Mbps MPEG2. Yes, 10-bit is better than 8-bit, but remember we are talking about compressed 10-bit vs compressed 8-bit. After compression, the differences are further reduced. At 1080psf24, our MPEG2 compression is effectively 2.5X less than AVC-I. Yes, AVC-I is more efficient, but the advantage is greatly reduced at the higher bit-rates.

We suspect the differences in video quality will be very difficult to detect.

We just qualified the 32GB 133X Kingston Compact Flash card, which can be purchased at B&H for under $60. How does that compare to P2?

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

DavidNJ
04-02-2009, 11:25 AM
Mike, it wasn't your recorder...it was the FFV...it records MPEG1 I-frame at 100Mb/s. Do you think that is competitive? I would love to see your comparison, however I believe the two will be so close that it will be image dependent; lots of people will buy the Flash/nanoFlash XDR, but my guess is few will be HPX300 users unless they want to avoid P2 cards purchase/rentals or need to deliver XDCAM output.

You may want to test using the AVCHD field recorder rather than a camera so you could test with different cameras. That would compare the compression rather than artifacts that are camera specific.

Mike Schell
04-02-2009, 02:25 PM
Mike, it wasn't your recorder...it was the FFV...it records MPEG1 I-frame at 100Mb/s. Do you think that is competitive? I would love to see your comparison, however I believe the two will be so close that it will be image dependent; lots of people will buy the Flash/nanoFlash XDR, but my guess is few will be HPX300 users unless they want to avoid P2 cards purchase/rentals or need to deliver XDCAM output.

You may want to test using the AVCHD field recorder rather than a camera so you could test with different cameras. That would compare the compression rather than artifacts that are camera specific.

Hi David-
I have not directly tested our XDR/nano aganist the FFV recorder, but I have heard positive reports (on our recorder) from some of our customers comparisons. As time permits, we want to compare the FFV and the AVC-I to our MPEG2 Recorder (Long-GOP and I-Frame Only). We have access to a Thomson Viper for all these tests.

I certainly agree that few HPX300 users will opt for our recorder, as AVC-I produces excellent video quality. We do think users will opt for our recorder over the AG-HPG20 recorder, since we offer HDMI I/O, 1080p/psf support, 1/5 size, and low-cost media.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design

Spartacus
04-02-2009, 03:35 PM
Maybe P2 cards get a lot cheaper at NAB. Maybe more than expected. Maybe.

Jan_Crittenden
04-03-2009, 07:52 AM
we all will be able ot buy s bunch of P2 cards w/o the usual Extortion.


You do realize how inflammatory and insulting this remark is don't you?

Best,

Jan

DavidNJ
04-03-2009, 10:19 AM
Jan, I don't think he meant it in a mean way. For prosumers, P2 cards are expensive and the workarounds a little cumbersome. For pros, a reliable solid state media.

As to the AG-HPG20 vs. the Flash XDR, the features are different. The HPG20 has a display, waveform and vector scope. Save AVC Intra to P2 cards. The Flash XDR is smaller and saves XDCAM to Compact Flash. My guess is for most the recording quality, which will be close, won't be the deciding features.

Most likely workflow will be #1: do you want AVC Intra or XDCAM? That may depend on the job and the client. Are the features more important or is the size? Are P2 cards preferred because of features or not preferred because of cost?

Big Brother
04-03-2009, 11:12 AM
David, Actually all my clients have been bothered about is the end result. P2 or XD are just a way of compression of Video DATA for me to edit my projects. I frankly in my events shoots dont see p2 ability to shoot & record 10bit 422 on HPX300 cox i can achieve comparable pix quality on XDR/Nano/FVV may ofcource in a bit cost effective way. Yes i wont call panns' P2 card costs in more aggressive manner cox i dont know when Jan might feel personally offended. I dont have anything against her or Panasonic. I truly thank panny to keep on giving us good prods. yes i do wish if all or atleast most of them were in my Purchasing power.

Jan_Crittenden
04-03-2009, 04:11 PM
People should be more careful in their wording. I stand by my previous post because the words were/are inflammatory and offensive. It could lead the uninformed viewers to jumptto the conclusion that Panasonic is gouging people on these cards. There is no basis for this assumption. And it is simply an assumption. I look at these posts as if I were not here. If no one called anyone on the post, it would go down in internet lore.

Please just be more thoughtful to the allegations one makes on these threads. Consider the intellectual value of the post you are about launch.

Best,

Jan

Christian m
04-03-2009, 06:27 PM
I still find my self a bit amused of the constant "rage" against P2 pricing, I'm fairly new in this game but cannot recall there were this much complaining with the tape based formats? Or did folks literally lash out on any sales rep from Sony with their digibetas or Pana for their DvcproHD?

Yes the P2 is a tad expensive if you take the hpx170 pricepoint into consideration(not the 300 or 500), on the other hand what's nice is the fact that I could buy the hp170 for light freelance use and rent a Hpx2700 when I need the extra stuff, without any workflow hassle. Try that with Xdcam...discs, deck and cards.

Or as a friend at one dealer here i Norway stated "well P2 are(like all other pro expensive products..) made to make a living of, can't support the cost of P2 cards? You don't charge enough for your work or should start renting, not owning gear" Of course to be read as a touch of sarcasm, but there are some truth to it to. If your business might make it or break it due to the cost of one or two P2 cards...I don't think it's the P2 price where the issues are. Ofcourse there will always be tasks when you need hours and hours over long periods without offload, then you are back to xdcam and tape again if needed.

But, Panasonic could help this "p2 is overpriced" nag easy if they(the techies..) stripped open a P2 card and explained what's what. A bit like how it's made on discovery, maybe people then understand that they don't just buy a "stupid" memory card?

Big Brother
04-03-2009, 08:21 PM
I would be happy to understand as to know " WHATS INSIDE THIS MEMORY CARD TAHTS MAKING 4 SDHC CARDS STRIPPING so hugely expensive ? "
Provided Panasonic would like to reveal it public & later do numerous explanations which surely be difficult. Panny can simply shoot various stages of production & allow the users to understad why P2 cards are sooooooooo expensive.
In days of DigiBetas etc we used to own camcorder & could be happy to make them run for years on relatively cheap media. Players for dumping or editing studios were very easily available on rental so the pinch was for once & one would go on & one for a long time with cost effective tapes.

P2 is a solid state media which alow shooting in field but the ends for P2 content on moving rotating relatively unsafe Hard Disks. SO where does the utility of P2 cards being BULLET PROOF plays a long run game. Today i can still shoot long hours on XDCAM disks but cannot even think of dreaming a similar long run shoot on P2 cards without dumping of P2 cards near by. I love panasonic for its camera but i hate the P2 cards pricing. its time we see media cost dropping steadily but p2 since there is no competition is enjoying the reaping benefits of its sales.

Sony has been having a expensive entry cost but running cost has always been low very very low right now till the ERA OF XDCAM !

I love to have a HPX300 or 500 but can only wish to have better pricings on P2 ards.

I have been told by very many pana dealers in my part of the world that P2 cards are EXPENSIVE & they might become affordable by NAB...I hope to see so.

Carlos Corral
04-03-2009, 08:31 PM
Even if people were given the explanation, they still would ignore and say "P2 is Expensive." I've read several of Jan's posts to know that a lot goes into making P2 Cards. I'm aware of their advantages and disadvantages.

But when you have Express Card adapters that can use cheap SDHC media on the Sony EX series and the new JVC HM100 and HM700 (that shoot native to Final Cut Pro), people seem to wonder why Panasonic hasn't offered a more economical high end alternative.

Yes, I know about the HMC150 and think its a great camera. But I would opt for the HM100 because of the Final Cut native work flow (no transcoding). I would opt for a JVC700 instead of an HPX170 because if you ever need to archive or give footage to a client, it won't break the bank. Yes, Panasonic has the better codec hands down, but I guess people are always more worried about their ability to archive their work than the color space of their cameras.

Also, SDHC cards can be read with ANY laptop or computer. You don't need an expensive 5-card P2 card reader or need to buy an additional laptop with PCMCIA slot for dumping.

It's true that Panasonic caters more to PC than Mac. Everyone wants the perfect camera and perfect workflow, but you can't please everyone.

Me personally, I'm still on the fence between the HPX170 and JVCHM700. P2 Cards & Workflow are the biggest conerns for me. Panasonic has an awesome codec and expensive media. JVC has a bit more of an expensive camera, but cheap media and shoot native for my NLE.

I guess people feel that if they "bitch" enough about P2 that the prices will go down. I have yet to see that happen. I don't think P2 prices are ever going to change. When the new 128GB card comes out, that will cost $2500, then the 64GB will cost $1300, and the 32GB $800. It will continue like this on and on no matter what. When they release the 256GB card, same thing, the 64GB card will be $800 and so on. The prices are set, and the only thing that will change is the capacity.

This is something that one just has to accept if you go into the Panasonic workflow.

DavidNJ
04-03-2009, 10:16 PM
This table may explain the issue:

http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/113/1238822162.jpg

As it shows, for consumer cameras, the camera costs 50x as much as the memory to record one hour. For prosumer cameras and digital hybrids using standard flash memory, the ratio grows: 150 to 1 for the HMC-150. The memory is less than .7% of the camera's cost.

For the Sony's the recording format is long GOP MPEG2, but only 35Mb/s. Although the SxS is as expensive as P2, it is around 10% of the camera's cost for one hour of recording.

For the P2 cameras, it can be nearly 50% of the camera's costs. For one hour of recording. An event videographer would either need to have an active backup procedure during the event or have invested more than the cost of the camera for P2 cards. The special case of 720Np24 lowers it a bit, but still twice as high as other cameras. And the other cameras are recording 1080p30.

Purchasing an HPX 170 with 4 hours of record would cost over $12k. An EX1 with the same recording time would be $7500. An HMC 150 would be $3300.

The EX1/EX3 has third party solutions that would reduce the memory cost 80%.

If there is an announcement, I doubt it will change P2 prices beyond their current annual reduction. More likely, it would be a Compact Flash adapter for P2 slots.

That will raise the used value of P2 cameras immediately.

Big Brother
04-04-2009, 12:02 AM
1. If just like Panny's fare of Price reduction of P2 card thingy then i will buy the less exorbitantly priced 32GB @ 670$ (hope so)
2. PANASONIC as a fact will never ever make a CF or SDHC to P2 slot adopter cox they wont want to loose the enormous amount of profit off of P2 card sales. I will say JAN cox i see SDHC cards prices & wonder what else will make 4 of such cards reach to such astronomical figure as listed on Pana sites. i wish not to have any more lengthy discs again.
3. best of both the world HPX300 10bit 422 mated into FVV10bit 422 or XDR/Nano 8bit 160mbps !

Nik Manning
04-04-2009, 02:56 AM
We all know P2 format is high priced for prosumer products. They are regular price for professional products. If people didn't buy them they would switch to something else. They must be selling! At least Panasonic makes products like GH1. They jump first. Sometimes it cost early adopters more.

DavidNJ
04-04-2009, 03:07 AM
In the prosumer space Panasonic brought us wide angle lenses, cine gammas, 24p, etc before the others. They gave us 100Mb/s when everyone else was 25Mb/s. They gave us 4:2:2.

However that was then and this is now. Regular flash memory is faster and larger. And while P2 makes sense for a $20k ENG camera, it really busts the budget on a $8-10k event camera. The HMC150 was a first step. However, with Compact Flash instead of SDHC it could have easily handled AVC Intra 100 or DVCPROHD 100. Or better, AVC 10-bit 4:2:2 long GOP 100.

Reducing P2 costs hurts ENG margins. Besides, P2's will always be more expensive; they have a rugged case and internal circuitry.

What I was just doing is showing why it is considered expensive: the recording media costs half again as much as the camera. Or even as much as the camera.

Jan_Crittenden
04-04-2009, 05:28 AM
If we used the same type of memory as that in the Compact Flash or SD cards, we could reduce the price somewhat, but the memory that is in the P2 cards is not the same, and the circuity is not the same. They are expensive to build as they are not just memory and the memory that we use is rewriteable up to 100,000 times.

And you are all correct in the fact that currently available memory is faster than it was when we introduced the P2 cards. To abandon the P2 card in the face of customers that have invested in the design and need to have its continuation would be foolhardy. We have customers that have spent millions in the adoption of P2, and we have customers that have only purchased a camera, and to not continue and support the P2 card and grow it, would not be of great service to those customers.

Best,

Jan

Dan Keaton
04-04-2009, 06:42 AM
Dear Big Brother,

In response to your battery mounting questions (back on Page 1 of this thread):

We are in the process of building a back plate for the nanoFlash that will allow the nanoFlash to be mounted to an Anton Bauer Gold Mount adapter plate (in place of the regular Anton Bauer battery.

We already have such a plate for the Flash XDR.

We have a photo shoot for the nanoFlash scheduled for next week.

It is fairly common for professionals to have velcro on the back of their Anton Bauer batteries.

The nanoFlash is so light that velcro mounting is a viable option.

The nanoFlash will also have a option to allow a battery to be mounted on the top of the unit. This battery is a Sony sized battery that will power the nanoFlash for 2 hours or more.

We may also have a "Anton Bauer Battery Sandwich", but this just adds to the cost as it must include an Anton Bauer Gold Mount adapter plate.

Just so you are aware, there is a reason why both the nanoFlash and the Flash XDR do not have an Anton Bauer Gold Mount adapter plate of the front. We use this space for a nice size LCD and user interface buttons.

If we put all of the buttons in a very confined space, to allow room for the Anton Bauer battery, then one could not find the critical record button by feel, or at least it would be much harder to do so.

We purposely spaced out the buttons. One can easily find the Record button by feel.

But, of course, we have a remote control that allows one to start and stop the unit remotely. Our remote controls have a LED to indicate when we are recording.

But, there are other buttons that one would want to use that are not on the small remote control.

Big Brother
04-04-2009, 06:53 AM
Eagerly awaiting the photo shoot results ! Some way to go.

DavidNJ
04-04-2009, 01:54 PM
If we used the same type of memory as that in the Compact Flash or SD cards, we could reduce the price somewhat, but the memory that is in the P2 cards is not the same, and the circuity is not the same. They are expensive to build as they are not just memory and the memory that we use is rewriteable up to 100,000 times.

And you are all correct in the fact that currently available memory is faster than it was when we introduced the P2 cards. To abandon the P2 card in the face of customers that have invested in the design and need to have its continuation would be foolhardy. We have customers that have spent millions in the adoption of P2, and we have customers that have only purchased a camera, and to not continue and support the P2 card and grow it, would not be of great service to those customers.

Best,

Jan

All the P2 users expect their investment to be protected. The HMC 150 was a good move to offer alternatives. However,in the under $7k prosumer market, it would be nice always have the Compact Flash or SDHC alternative. P2 is very expensive relative to the cost of the camera's in that price range. If the full 1080p HMC150 successor had a Canon 5D Mark II/SX1-like 45Mb/s record speed, that would be nice.

Sumfun
04-04-2009, 05:39 PM
Jan,

Would it be possible to bring the AVC-I out the firewire port so that it can be recorded on a Firestore type device? I understand that it's not implemented now, but maybe you'll consider it for a possible upgrade.

OSV
04-04-2009, 06:25 PM
the hmc150 was a lot more than just a "good move", it was revolutionary... ccds+avchd+sd card+xlr isn't your typical configuration, and being the first(and only?) company to market that combo must have felt a bit risky for a company as big as panasonic is... i suspect that many hmc150 owners are thankful for the engineering and marketing vision behind that camcorder, and aren't the slightest bit worried about what happens with the p2 scene.

if i was panasonic, i'd be looking hard at the insane resolution numbers that canon has been putting out on their latest consumer camcorders... it's obviously only part of the picture, but it can't be ignored, because of the implications it poses for the upcoming canon prosumer models.

DavidNJ
04-04-2009, 06:33 PM
While I don't consider the HMC-150 revolutionary, I will just say it is the best prosumer camcorder south of the EX1 in price (I consider the HPX170 above the EX1 because of P2 cost and MxM SDHC availability for the EX1). If I were buying one now...it would be my choice.

"ccds+avchd+sd card+xlr"...since getting my Korg MR-1, I don't consider 48khz@16-bit or even 24-bit adequate. The cameras don't record acceptable audio for my tastes.

OSV
04-04-2009, 06:43 PM
i miss 4 tracks of audio more than anything else.... if i need better than 48khz@16-bit, it's time to bring in an audio guy.

zeke
04-05-2009, 02:28 PM
It would be nice if the HPX300 could offload files via firewire in addition to USB2, mainly because you can have up to a 10 meter cable for firewire400, but only 5meter for USB2 (legal max lengths). I don't mean record directly, just transfer from the P2 cards for starters.

It seems with the ability of the HPX300 to control an external usb drive, the issue of cost of P2 media is somewhat less important. Hooking up a multicard reader via usb, you could transfer to an external sdhc card and give that to your clients.Why are some of you ignoring this very low cost option when discussing P2 price issues? It''s not perfect, but it's a start.

Big Brother
06-29-2009, 11:48 AM
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/convergent-design-flash-xdr/236562-220-mbps-i-frame-only-next-release.html

I was not sure how will it help us ... also how does FVV stand its chance against CD's Flash XDR 220mbps 16GB CF holds Iframe only 9minutes of footage.