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View Full Version : Canon is playing games....



ESTEBEVERDE
03-14-2009, 01:53 PM
They are hobbling the firmware in the 5D MKII to protect camcorder sales and to keep headroom for "upgrades".

It is clear by watching all the work around videos that the camera's hardware is capable of so much more than they are allowing it to do.


They need to get over the protectionist crap and serve their customers.

If not we should abandon them wholesale!


P.S. Nikon - You have a great opportunity here to expand your market. Step up and Step up quick.

FatDaddy
03-14-2009, 04:39 PM
THe questions is "to firmware or not to firmware." I use to think they would release a firmware and fix a lot of the functionality issues. Now I am not so sure...

Nektonic
03-14-2009, 05:00 PM
Well, technically we don't know for sure, but I have to say I tend to agree with your theory. Same thing with the HV20 being somewhat gimped to protect the XH-A1. No 30P, 24P embedded in 60i, and no gain control. Should've had a better way to control exposure but I'll let that one slide for now. Then they release the HV30 in black and add 30P, still with 24P embedded in 60i. Now finally, after AVC-HD has arrived they come up with... drum roll please... are you ready? The HV40 with true 24P recording!!!!! Oh my goodness, what a revelation.

Seriously, anything priced at a $1,000 plus should at least have better manual controls and something as simple as two 24P modes, one in 60i while the other a true 24P recording like the DVX did with its two modes.

The sad thing with the 5D mk2 is that it took one huge step forward (35mm DoF / interchangeable lenses) and one huge step back (no 24P). Frankly, I find it kinda insulting that the HV20 has 24P, yet the 5D mk2 which costs nearly 3 times as much can't even have the HV20's pain-in-the-ass version of 24P.


P.S. Nikon - You have a great opportunity here to expand your market. Step up and Step up quick.

I really like Canon's products, but if I had to predict the future, it will be another 2 to 3 years of them gimping their cameras until we finally get what we really want from them... a good pro-oriented fully manual / interchangeable lens mount / 35mm sensor HD video-cinema camera under the $9,000 price tag of their flagship the XL-H1s. By then they'll be catching up to Panasonic, Sony, Red, and possibly Nikon.

I hope I'm wrong.

Oynk
03-14-2009, 06:08 PM
I really like Canon's products, but if I had to predict the future, it will be another 2 to 3 years of them gimping their cameras until we finally get what we really want from them... a good pro-oriented fully manual / interchangeable lens mount / 35mm sensor HD video-cinema camera under the $9,000 price tag of their flagship the XL-H1s. By then they'll be catching up to Panasonic, Sony, Red, and possibly Nikon.

I hope I'm wrong.

Unfortunately, I think you are right. I have all Canon gear - 5DmII, 40D, XHA1, even a Powershot... However, I just don't feel like they will suck it up and deliver. They just don't seem to get it. Heck, they still don't have a tapeless prosumer video camera.

Panasonic has a better history of innovating in this way (24pa and P2). The problem with Panasonic, in my mind, is that they are tied into the 4/3s format, which may work great but just doesn't have the fast lens selection of Nikon or Canon. I think Nikon can make a real play here. Who knows if they will.

Having said all of that, I bought my 5DmII yesterday. It didn't feel as good as it should have though. It's a great camera, it's just definitely not 'the one'. If they added 24p and Aperture priority mode in video, I would feel differently. My thinking now is that within the year I will be moving on to the killer camera... Probably from Nikon or Red. We'll see...

Eric Papa
03-14-2009, 06:14 PM
30p is the new 24p !!!

Kholi
03-14-2009, 06:17 PM
30P is disgusting for narrative. End.

I was just gettin' ready to write about how the end of cameras would be this product. But, in reality?

Look at how many people are already hoppin' on the RED EPIC bandwagon? I guess there won't ever really be any end to it. So, one of these companies need to bring it on!

ESTEBEVERDE
03-14-2009, 06:36 PM
I like 30p, 60p, etc etc etc...

The lack of manual controls is what is getting me #$%&^*&(*)!


But, check this out.


If camera had true manual controls and even focus assist/spot focus would they sell more or less Canon lenses at $$$ a pop????


Those Krazy Japanese........

ChristianScott
03-14-2009, 06:40 PM
saying that tho, i wont be red bandwagoning anytime soon, the 5d is a great camera, nothing around this price range looks as good, for 2500 you can have really beautiful full hd, filmic looking capable stuff. we were looking at getting a few ex1.s with maybe a blade but look at the cost. 4500 Ex1 1500 35mm adapter + lens etc.

and i challege anyone with that much money to make anything worth choosing that setup as apposed to the 5d. the thing is theres alot of over exposed footage from the 5d;s all over the internet and i think its this that people have the problem with, me included. this is only really an issue if you cant handle the camera.

i fell into the trap of not locking the exposure and that is really the only problem for me, as if you only realise in post there is not getting that detail back. and most of these issues can be controlled by getting manual lens.

As to everyone on this forum ever who complains about not having 24/25p come on you all should know better. i could make a film on a mobile and as long as your script, direction, acting etc etc is there people will watch that shitty mobile phone video.

if your relying on these things. to make great film, i would say to you this, grab a camera and get out there filming. if its not working out id look at one of those things and not the camera.

did anyone see that student remake of one of the end scenes of the village. shitty camera but everything else was there and it brill, they copied M Nights directing perfectly and it works !

oh here it is,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYtrWVxptpo

ChristianScott
03-14-2009, 06:48 PM
Haha i forgot how scary that film is, just stop going on about this cameras lack of and go out and film, if your all gonna go on about the cam at all go on about the PROS cause theres lots,

sorry but everyone knows whats missing no need to discuss it everyday. when canon/if canon do something about it then we can talk about it. and itl only make this camera even greater.

FatDaddy
03-14-2009, 07:33 PM
I think the camera has caught on enough that people will make it work and new products will be born that make it work better (Beachtek, etc). For me, a person who uses a Canon 5d package and a Canon XH-A1 on the same project, going to one camera has plenty of advantages. I know there is a rumor floating around that Canon is releasing new firmware to fix the functionality, but I don't think this camera will be improved until the Mark III. Hope I am wrong.

In April I am condensing down to one video/still camera, invest in lenses (Canon, not Nikon), pick up the pieces I need and not look back.

Now if Scarlet was around...

ESTEBEVERDE
03-14-2009, 08:18 PM
I think the camera has caught on enough that people will make it work and new products will be born that make it work better (Beachtek, etc). For me, a person who uses a Canon 5d package and a Canon XH-A1 on the same project, going to one camera has plenty of advantages. I know there is a rumor floating around that Canon is releasing new firmware to fix the functionality, but I don't think this camera will be improved until the Mark III. Hope I am wrong.

In April I am condensing down to one video/still camera, invest in lenses (Canon, not Nikon), pick up the pieces I need and not look back.

Now if Scarlet was around...


Why Canon lenses?

What lenses in particular?

Nektonic
03-14-2009, 08:49 PM
if your relying on these things. to make great film, i would say to you this, grab a camera and get out there filming. if its not working out id look at one of those things and not the camera.

You're right, a good story is a good story. Good acting is good acting. I'm not saying that I need 24P to make a good film. I've shot films on VHS-C, 8mm video, Digital8, and mini DV all in 60i because that was all that was available before the DVX came along with 24P.

What is annoying about the 5d mkII having only 30P is that it doesn't seem like we are asking a lot to get 24P in this day and age. If Canon decided to introduce this in a Digital Rebel or even the 50D then I'd kinda understand, but this is a $2,500 professional DSLR. And the same with manual controls. If they give the user full manual control in photo mode, why not for the video mode as well? Unless they physically can't. Maybe that is the case, but until they tell us, or if they tell us why, I have to say I doubt that they couldn't technically do 24P from day one.

You're right though. 24P and DoF adapters and a Red One and all the other bells and whistles don't make a good film alone. My reasoning is if you set out to make a good film, why not get the best tools that you can afford to do the job? The 5D mkII shoots great looking video in 30P, it just doesn't seem logical that they would not allow 24P. My reasoning for complaining is that if one is going to be spending $2,500 plus more $$ on lenses, they shouldn't have to jump through extra hoops to get 24P, which has been available to indie filmmakers since the DVX shook things up nearly 7 years ago.

This is why Red and the Scarlet, at least in theory, are appealing to me. The Scarlet is a digital cinema camera. Period. Films, commercials, docs, music videos. That is what it is for. Maybe there will be other uses that some will find for it. But the intention is that it is a digital cinema camera. Their marketing plan may be kinda wacky with all the changes and delays and re-announcements, but what they aim to do is very different from what Canon, Sony, Panasonic, etc. are about. Not saying that the Scarlet will be the end all be all of low budget indie cinema, but is just different.

I harbor no ill will towards anyone that decides the 5D mkII is the right camera for them. Like I said, I've seen some really great looking video shot on it.

Oynk
03-14-2009, 10:10 PM
As to everyone on this forum ever who complains about not having 24/25p come on you all should know better.
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It's not always about look. It's about workflow. Both 24p and 25p have very important technical justifications.

25p is needed for people shooting in 50hz countries. (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&q=50hz+camera+flicker&btnG=Search).

And 24p is needed to deliver video to everything but the web. If you want to go to TV, DVD, Film - any other mainstream distribution channel, 30p has to be processed. You can say, 'no big deal' but what if you want to make a documentary out of all 5d footage? At least going from 24p to 29.97 you can elegantly add frames in. Converting 30p to 24p or even 29.97 is not elegant by any means. This makes the 5DmII the most expensive webcam in history. (I still bought one :huh: )

ESTEBEVERDE
03-14-2009, 10:25 PM
I prefer docs in 30p+++++

Elton
03-14-2009, 11:05 PM
24p. 30p. Pffft. Shoot whichever you prefer...but what if you don't really have a choice as to how the viewer sees it in the end?

Watching movies and SNL tonight on a friend's new 120hz 1080p Bravia TV gave me pause.

His TV was set...by default...with motion smoothing set to 'high'.

Made movies look like video. Made the beloved SNL digital shorts look like the video they really are.

An absolute abomination.

Yet...fascinating.

Love it or hate it...it's the future.

:)

ESTEBEVERDE
03-14-2009, 11:10 PM
24p. 30p. Pffft. Shoot whichever you prefer...but what if you don't really have a choice as to how the viewer sees it in the end?

Watching movies and SNL tonight on a friend's new 120hz 1080p Bravia TV gave me pause.

His TV was set...by default...with motion smoothing set to 'high'.

Made movies look like video. Made the beloved SNL digital shorts look like the video they really are.

An absolute abomination.

Yet...fascinating.

Love it or hate it...it's the future.

:)

"In the year 2000...." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87soTsQjf5Y)

ChristianScott
03-15-2009, 04:20 AM
but this is a $2,500 professional DSLR.

its not tho, its a semi pro.

and it does make sense from canon pov, they have prosumer video cams that cost way more, that can do what your all demanding, what would be the point if the canon xl-h1 if the 5dMII could shoot 24p and had manual controls,

i love this camera as it is now, yes it has cons, but all cameras do. and i know if this camera had those functions it would render all those cameras hvx200, xha1, ex1 etc etc obsolete. making letus adapters etc etc obsolete.

with that said, i know everyone on this forum and most others is hoping red delivers, if this happens what happens to all the small indy companys like letus, shoot35 etc. i feel bad for them,...altho i do need a ffocus and some rails.

FatDaddy
03-15-2009, 06:37 AM
Why Canon lenses?

What lenses in particular?

I just don't want to invest in a lot of manual Nikkon glass. I will be using it for photography and want to have lenses that work for that as well.

I am still researching the lenses (and still have my 5d package).

No upgrades until April for me...

Eric Papa
03-15-2009, 12:25 PM
The higher the resolution a camera does in 30p, the less it looks like 30p, and more like 24p.

I'll take the extra quality/frames.

As video people, we tend to look at things like shutter and iris. With this 5D mkII, you focus more on ISO. You can also create pre-determined looks in camera by adjusting color, contrast, saturation, and then save them and use them when you want.

Canon probably didn't give us full manual controls because they think their technology in auto mode smarter and better than us! :)

ESTEBEVERDE
03-15-2009, 03:32 PM
Full manual controls and variable frame rates <30p


What's so F'n hard about that!?!?!?!

reem12
03-15-2009, 10:04 PM
I watched a couple of clips on vimeo last night that were so amazing that they almost had me puu the trigger on the camera today, but then I thought about it. the 24p will be coming from one of these guys sooner or later, and since canon keeps play these games, I'll keep my $2700 to myself until they stop playing their games. Nikon, now its your chance to take the market.

reem12
03-15-2009, 10:10 PM
I just thought about something, what if canon has a firmware right now but will not release it until one of its competitors release their cam with the 24p and full hd res.. They may have already had it planed out from the begining, this way they can keep milking it for the canon a1s and can still remain competitive when the other companies release their new cams.

ESTEBEVERDE
03-15-2009, 10:14 PM
I just thought about something, what if canon has a firmware right now but will not release it until one of its competitors release their cam with the 24p and full hd res.. They may have already had it planed out from the begining, this way they can keep milking it for the canon a1s and can still remain competitive when the other companies release their new cams.


This is most likely correct.

I am hedging my bets.

More to come later..... :beer:

StormFactory
03-15-2009, 10:32 PM
Canon is making the biggest mistake ever.

My prediction is that Canon will make a 5D Mark II firmware release that will address most of our concerns. Here is why.

Canon, even more so than their camera bodies is at the top of their game because of their excellent quality lenses. My guess is that lenses is their bread and butter in the photography world.

The idea that Canon is loosing money to Nikon on their lenses is beyond bad business. Look at it like inkjet printers. Inkjet printers are sold at a loss because Epson, HP, Kodak, etc really make all their money selling you their high priced ink. This is their main business -- so much so that they put chips in their inkjet cartridges to keep you from refilling them or going with cheaper replacements.

Canon makes their money on their lenses. That is where the big dollars are. They are expensive and sharp and a lot of people feel worth every penny.

One of the main reasons people don't easily switch from Nikon to Canon or vice-versa is because they have so much invested in lenses. But not giving us the features that we professionally need Canon is now creating a community of Canon users that are actually crossing the aisle and buying Nikon lenses. Nikon lenses! Are you kidding me? This has got to be making Canon nuts.

The idea that this is going to cut into their video business is nowhere as bad as this cutting into their lens business and I bet you that Canon photographic and video divisions are in a cage match. But photo will win because if they give us the firmware that we want we will keep buying Canon. If they do not, we will buy Nikon and possible like Nikon lenses enough to try a Nikon camera. Then when Nikon comes out with a 5D Mark II competitor we would be more inclined to switch because we now own some Nikon lenses making the transition easier.

The reason giving us the 5D Mark II firmware update won't cut drastically into Canon's video business is because there still won't be continuous autofocus on the 5D Mark II. Granted the new Panasonic GH1 has it but that's for another post.

Canon needs to see the writing on the wall and understand that their users buying the competition's lenses is a game changing problem that can all be solved by updating the 5D Mark II software.

ESTEBEVERDE
03-15-2009, 10:41 PM
I think you are very close to the truth of the matter.

I would just say the Nikon Lenses seem to be more favored at the moment and have a reputation for performing better.

If Canon wants to sell more of their lenses they need to make them invaluable to the 5D MK II as well as their camcorder lines.

This is coming...

Nikon has the field and can dash their hopes at domination with a game changing camera replete with full frame, manual control, and several frame rate options....

Sup to them....

Bahala Ka Na.....

Lee Wilson
03-16-2009, 04:19 AM
I just thought about something, what if canon has a firmware right now but will not release it until one of its competitors release their cam with the 24p and full hd res.. They may have already had it planed out from the begining, this way they can keep milking it for the canon a1s and can still remain competitive when the other companies release their new cams.


If this theory has any validity - the recent announcement from Panasonic might prompt something from Canon. (????)

So much guess work though! Theories built on rumours based on notions ! :zombie_smiley::)

Lee Wilson
03-16-2009, 04:44 AM
. . . . Canon users that are actually crossing the aisle and buying Nikon lenses. Nikon lenses! Are you kidding me? This has got to be making Canon nuts.


I am not so sure about this theory.

Nikon lenses appeal mainly to owners using the 5D predominately for video (after all the 5D offers full manual control with Canon lenses for photographers).

I suspect the the casual user / photographer who wants to try a little bit of movie making - will simply use the Canon lenses they use for photography.

The 'video only' (or 'video predominately') market I would guess is small, maybe vanishingly small compared to the photography market for the 5D, and even within this section of people buying the 5D for video the majority will still use Canon lenses, leaving just a small fraction of a small area of the market buying Nikon lenses.

Even on forums like DVXuser and cinema5d.com - where video on the 5D takes precedence (which I maintain itself is a tiny fraction of the market) - the majority of people will still simply use Canon lenses.

A poll on cinema5D, arguably the epicentre of 5D2 videographers along with DVXuser - asks 'What's your choice of lens?' - the results are:

Canon 58%
Zeiss 15%
Nikon 12%

Lee Wilson
03-16-2009, 04:51 AM
would just say the Nikon Lenses seem to be more favored at the moment . . .

Where ?

Within the small group of videographers buying the 5D for video only (or predominately) ?

Even within this tiny section Canon lenses are preferred - with only around 12% are buying Nikon lenses.

See post above.

Chris_TC
03-16-2009, 06:06 AM
Lee Wilson is right. Almost nobody buys the camera to use it (almost) exclusively for video. So almost nobody will bother with manual lenses.

I'd love to have manual control on my 5DII, but I use it for both photo and video. And I'd rather leave the awesome 24-105L attached and be ready to shoot photo and video at any time (with IS it's totally hand-holdable too) than switch it out for some manual lens.

Yeah, a few people put Nikon aperture control lenses on their Mark II, but it's such a small fraction of the customer base that Canon won't lose any sleep over it.

Lee Wilson
03-16-2009, 08:23 AM
Lee Wilson is right.

It was bound to happen one day ! :)



Almost nobody buys the camera to use it (almost) exclusively for video.

Yep! And of those few who do buy it for video I would say that the majority still buy Canon lenses.


Yeah, a few people put Nikon aperture control lenses on their Mark II, but it's such a small fraction of the customer base that Canon won't lose any sleep over it.

Agreed ! I doubt it has even registered on Canon's corporate radar.

Elton
03-16-2009, 08:25 AM
"In the year 2000...." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87soTsQjf5Y)

Funny skit.

I know it seems a little 'out there' to talk about it, but in the future I don't think this stuff is just novelty to the consumer, and I bet motion smoothing makes its way onto computer screens with Nvidia, ATI, etc.

Yeah, I want 24p too, but does the average viewer watching a movie?

I was stunned by how my friend and others actually preferred the motion smoothed look and kept the setting on even when I showed the difference.

ESTEBEVERDE
03-16-2009, 09:27 AM
I absolutely prefer higher frame rates and smoother motion.

I don't like strobing and stuttering.

I don't want discover channel movies though.

I do love shallow depth of field and a very dynamic range of colors and detail.

TimeKoder13
03-28-2009, 11:12 PM
I am not so sure about this theory.

Nikon lenses appeal mainly to owners using the 5D predominately for video (after all the 5D offers full manual control with Canon lenses for photographers).

I suspect the the casual user / photographer who wants to try a little bit of movie making - will simply use the Canon lenses they use for photography.

The 'video only' (or 'video predominately') market I would guess is small, maybe vanishingly small compared to the photography market for the 5D, and even within this section of people buying the 5D for video the majority will still use Canon lenses, leaving just a small fraction of a small area of the market buying Nikon lenses.

Even on forums like DVXuser and cinema5d.com - where video on the 5D takes precedence (which I maintain itself is a tiny fraction of the market) - the majority of people will still simply use Canon lenses.

A poll on cinema5D, arguably the epicentre of 5D2 videographers along with DVXuser - asks 'What's your choice of lens?' - the results are:

Canon 58%
Zeiss 15%
Nikon 12%


I have both Canon, Sony and Panny gear but I hope uR wrong. I remember the day I saw the DVX 100 at some conference @2002 or something, blah blah East in NYC, Jacob Javitz, might've been DV Expo East and I was like "cool, but I get that look outta my Sony VX2K with a lil post playing around." I couldn't afford a DVX so I figured I could live without one. Boy did I not see the future. I hope Canon sees the future. Still don't know what I'm getting, but I need to make up my mind soon as I've got paying clients and guaranteed airplay if I deliver a professional looking music video. HV20 and HVX200A are in the stable but I've seen some incredible looking DSLR video footage from DJ D-NICE on his blog, he's the guy from KRS-ONE's old crew BDP and he's now a pro photographer, webmaster, and dj.

f64manray
03-29-2009, 09:38 AM
24p. 30p. Pffft. Shoot whichever you prefer...but what if you don't really have a choice as to how the viewer sees it in the end?

Watching movies and SNL tonight on a friend's new 120hz 1080p Bravia TV gave me pause.

His TV was set...by default...with motion smoothing set to 'high'.

Made movies look like video. Made the beloved SNL digital shorts look like the video they really are.

An absolute abomination.

Yet...fascinating.

Love it or hate it...it's the future.

:)



Interesting, I just bought a 52 inch samsung and had to decide on whether or not to get the 120hz feature. People go on about this 30 and 24 fps debate, but I think the real crisis is that people are going to be viewing their 24 fps in 120hz as the standard on their flat screen LCD TVs in the very near future yet I don't hear anyone voice any concerns about this.

This 120hz stuff is putrid. The actors seem separated from the movie. The only way I can describe it is that I'm no longer viewing the movie through the camera, but it seems like I'm on the set watching as they're filming the scene. Very distracting. Is this really progress! needless to say, I went with the 60hz model. I just can't handle the 120hz.