View Full Version : Skew-Off: EX1 vs. prototype HPX300
Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 01:08 PM
Yesterday was an interesting day. I got to go to the Panasonic headquarters in NJ to settle the question of relative skew/wobble/jello between the HPX300 and the EX1. Not only did I get a chance to put both cameras through their paces, but I also had a rather notable audience, including Jan Crittenden (the Product Line Manager for the HPX300 in the USA) and several of the engineers from Japan!
They had built a side-by-side rig for some other shooting purposes; we pressed it into service for the first phase of the test, but I wasn't happy with the idea that a slight parallax error could "skew" the results, so at the end of the test I bolted a Bogen 501 head on top of the HPX300 and mounted the EX1 to that, and got the critical test measurements. With that rig I could ensure that there was no parallax error side-to-side, that each camera was centered horizontally and I balanced them such that one was pointing slightly upwards and one slightly downwards towards the same target.
http://dvxuser.com/barry/Cams-Over-Under.jpg
The target was about 25 feet away, which further eliminates parallax.
I set the cameras as similarly as I could get them, with an emphasis on removing as many variables as possible. Accordingly, I turned detail off both of them, I turned off the lens image stabilizer in the EX1, and I set the field of view to be as identical as I could get it so that the relative image magnification would be the same. The tests were conducted near the telephoto end of the lens; the EX1 was at about 75mm and the HPX300 was set to match its field of view.
I also set the shutter manually, to the same value on both. I used 1/60th for normal-view testing, and 1/1000 for super-crisp to remove motion blur from the tests. I also did one test at 12fps with 1/12 shutter.
I put them through their paces in the following combinations:
1080/60i @ 1/1000
1080/60i @ 1/60
1080/24p @ 1/60
1080/24p @ 1/1000
720/60p @ 1/1000
720/60p @ 1/60
720/24p @ 1/60
720/24p @ 1/1000
720/12p @ 1/12
The test consisted of rapid panning past a Fujinon backfocus chart. The contrast of the white left page against the black-background backfocus chart on the right page made for an excellent, easily-definable and easily-measurable skew angle.
http://www.dvxuser.com/barry/1080-60i-thumbnail.jpg
For each test, we sync'd the cameras up with a good old-fashioned hand clap so that in post I could extract identical frames for comparison.
Okay, so -- blather, blather, blather, methodology and settings, blah blah -- what's the results?
Very, very interesting results indeed. Very. In fact, I was surprised and somewhat shocked, and so were the engineers.
So, here's the lowdown: in 60i, and in 60P, at any shutter angle, the EX1 and the HPX300 are within spittin' distance of each other. When there was any sort of noticeable difference, the HPX300 actually had LESS skew, about 27% less on average. This usually showed up in 720/24p and 720/12p.
BUT -- and, as Pee Wee Herman said, "everyone has a big BUT" -- there's one mode where the HPX300 was dramatically more skew-y. And that's 1080/24p. And it wasn't a minor difference, it was a big difference, with the HPX showing an average of 75% more skew. And, since 1080/24p is such a popular mode, this is why people have been reporting that the HPX300 shows more jello than the EX1 or EX3. In all other circumstances the HPX300 should be less skewy and less jello-y, but in 1080/24p mode it's much moreso.
I was surprised at the difference, but so were the engineers. Why would 1080/60i performance be nearly identical, yet 1080/24p performance be so different? Or, for another perhaps more intriguing question, why would the HPX300 show 27% less skew in 720/24p, but 75% more skew in 1080/24p? How could they be so different?
I don't have the answer, but I did get a commitment from the Japanese engineers that they are committed to studying the situation. They saw it, they saw the difference, I gave them copies of the footage to take back with them, and I have all confidence that they will be able to address it. And, it is my understanding that if a firmware update does become available, every HPX300 camera will be eligible for it.
For those who want the pedantic details, a table follows which gives the measured skew difference, in pixels, between the two cameras, in all modes. The skew was calculated by using PhotoShop's "marquee" tool to encircle the edge of the skewed triangle, from start to finish, and having PhotoShop's "info" window report the width of the marquee window.
http://dvxuser.com/barry/Measure.jpg
(keep in mind motion blur and interlacing made it a little harder to measure the 1/60 and 60i frames pixel-perfectly)
(also, the frames were extracted from any old portion of the video, so there's no guarantee that the speed was the same between any two tests, but the speed is guaranteed identical between cameras within each test)
(in the following table, smaller numbers mean less skew; underlined statements are links to the side-by-side pictures)
1080/60i @ 1/1000: EX1 112, HPX300 119; HPX300 shows 6% more skew (http://dvxuser.com/barry/1080-60i at 1-1000.jpg)*
1080/60i @ 1/60: EX1 160, HPX300 146; HPX300 shows 9.5% less skew
1080/24p @ 1/60: EX1 115, HPX300 185; HPX300 shows 62% more skew*
1080/24p @ 1/1000: EX1 59, HPX300 111; HPX300 shows 88% more skew (http://dvxuser.com/barry/1080-24p at 1-1000.jpg)
720/60p @ 1/1000: EX1 144, HPX300 145; same amount of skew
720/60P @ 1/60: EX1 94, HPX300 77; HPX300 shows 19% less skew (http://dvxuser.com/barry/720-60p at 1-60.jpg)
720/24p @ 1/60: EX1 39, HPX300 27; HPX300 shows 31% less skew (http://dvxuser.com/barry/720-24p at 1-60.jpg)
720/24p @ 1/1000: EX1 93, HPX300 72; HPX300 shows 22% less skew (http://dvxuser.com/barry/720-24p at 1-1000.jpg)*
720/12p @ 1/12: EX1 38, HPX300 27; HPX300 shows 30% less skew (http://dvxuser.com/barry/720-12p at 1-12.jpg)
* = tests conducted with over/under for eliminating any potential parallax error.
Jason Ramsey
03-10-2009, 01:17 PM
Very weird that the HPX300 would show less skew in 720p/24p than the EX, but then be so much worse than the EX1 in 1080/24p mode...
weird...
Later,
Jason
David Saraceno
03-10-2009, 01:25 PM
Two inquiries:
1. All shot with DVCProHD? If that is correct, would AVCIntra make any difference?
2. How preproduction was the HPX300? Jan has indicated that later or the latest version has attenuated the skew over earlier versions?
Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 01:42 PM
Two inquiries:
1. All shot with DVCProHD? If that is correct, would AVCIntra make any difference?
All shot with AVC-Intra. We did try DVCPRO-HD for one test and it was identical to Intra. We were also outputting the image live to identical monitors, so the skew was being seen live as well as in the recorded footage.
2. How preproduction was the HPX300? Jan has indicated that later or the latest version has attenuated the skew over earlier versions?
This one was running the latest firmware and is the latest model.
Robert Sanders
03-10-2009, 01:47 PM
Absolutely fascinating. I can't wait to hear/see what Panasonic does to address the issue.
Jan_Crittenden
03-10-2009, 01:48 PM
Two inquiries:
1. All shot with DVCProHD? If that is correct, would AVCIntra make any difference?
These were done in AVC-Intra.
2. How preproduction was the HPX300? Jan has indicated that later or the latest version has attenuated the skew over earlier versions?
I had mentioned that the current firmware did indeed improve the cameras' performance. You assumed I meant skew, I meant better color and bettter S/N. Keep in mind it is only in the 1080P/24PN or in DVCPRO HD 1080i/ 24P-24PA that the image had this issue. The other modes we same or maybe even better.
We did find that the Infra-red issue on the HPX300 was basically not an issue with the HPX, unlike the counterpart.
Best,
Jan
Buck Forester
03-10-2009, 01:56 PM
I'm guessing the test footage that Shipsides posted was shot in 1080/24p because it skewed like a muthuh, whereas the sample Central Park footage wasn't so bad, artifacty as it was.
David Saraceno
03-10-2009, 02:06 PM
As I read these results, I interpret them in a couple of way:
1. On balance, the 300 does not have as significant a skew than the EX1 and/or EX3 under similar settings and shooting environment.
2. The engineers are aware of the one instance where the 300's skew exceeded the other cams, ie. 1080/24p.
Correct or augment these interpretations as needed.
But what I would still like to see is native footage on reasonable pans and other everyday shooting environments.
We are seriously looking at this camera, but the absence of sample footage where skew could be an issue is what I'd like to evaluate.
Thanks though
Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 02:18 PM
1. It appears to be, on balance, the same or better than the EX1 in terms of skew performance, with the one big exception of 1080/24p mode.
2. They are most definitely aware of it now, yes.
Cees Mutsaers
03-10-2009, 02:23 PM
nice test, hope they will solve the problem in 24p mode before the cam comes available. Do you think the result between the hpx and ex will be the same when panning ?
alexdias
03-10-2009, 02:29 PM
Very interesting findings.
I doubted there's any other company in the world that has such a transparent discussion about a product that hasn't even hit the market yet.
Very impressive, that's one of the main reasons I'm such a fan.
Thanks Barry, Jan and others involved.
Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 02:39 PM
hope they will solve the problem in 24p mode before the cam comes available
I don't know if that's likely; the cam is due within the next couple of weeks or so, and any changes would have to be thoroughly tested before being certified ready to go.
I would instead expect that whether it's updated before shipping or not, if they find a way to speed up the skew performance, they'll make it available to all owners. That is what I understood them to say.
Do you think the result between the hpx and ex will be the same when panning ?
Well, as it stands now, the panning results will be as good, or better, on the HPX in any mode except 1080/24p.
If they can provide an update that speeds up the 1080/24p scan rate, then yes, you should be looking at something that's as good or better than the EX1 in all ways in terms of skew performance.
But if they can't update it, then the HPX300 would have significantly worse skew performance in 1080/24p (but only in that mode).
We will have to wait and see what the engineers come up with.
Cees Mutsaers
03-10-2009, 02:46 PM
Can not imagine that if sony got this under controll why pana can't. At least you showed them the area they have some work to do and i am sure they will manage and even surpass the ex.
Cees Mutsaers
03-10-2009, 02:50 PM
Does increase of the scan rate also reduce the change on partial exposure due to flash lights?
Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 02:51 PM
Can not imagine that if sony got this under controll why pana can't. At least you showed them the area they have some work to do and i am sure they will manage and even surpass the ex.
That's my feeling too.
Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 02:52 PM
Does increase of the scan rate also reduce the change on partial exposure due to flash lights?
I didn't test that portion, but I can't fathom why flash performance would be any different than skew performance, since it's caused by the same issue (scan rate). Faster scan rates will show more flash and less dark, slower scan rates will show less flash and more dark.
Kenn Christenson
03-10-2009, 04:58 PM
You'd think the Panasonic might have done a test like this (side-by-side w/ competitor) during development.
(I say this as someone chomping at the bit to purchase one of these, BTW)
Jan_Crittenden
03-10-2009, 05:09 PM
You'd think the Panasonic might have done a test like this (side-by-side w/ competitor) during development.
(I say this as someone chomping at the bit to purchase one of these, BTW)
Keep in mind that there are so many things, there are 6 codecs in this camera all of those with the various frame rates have to be tested for failsafe operation, with 24P, 24PA , Standard Def, High Def, 50 HZ, 60HZ. there is a ton of stuff, plus new technologies like the 3-MOS, the LCOS VF and the LCD. Add to that the additional Proxy for the 60 modes, the wireless slot in on a camera of this size with a full set up for the Dual receiver from Lectrosonics. Oh and don't forget the mapping an correction on the XT17 CAC lens. They have been busy. ;-) They see this now and will study to figure out the problem.
Always easier to see where we should have looked in hindsight.
Best,
Jan
Best,
David Saraceno
03-10-2009, 05:48 PM
About that fast pan footage?
That certainly would help a bunch of people to decide.
I sound like a voice crying in the wilderness, but I'm one of those people who wants to evalaute footage, not charts.
Not trying to be a pest, but some native footage shot with this concern in mind might go a long way to sell a bunch of hardware
best :)
Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 05:49 PM
Part of the reason that folks like me and Philip Bloom and Art Aldrich and Adam Wilt and others get to see these cameras in their pre-production phase is to find stuff like this. There's internal testing, which is the first phase; then there's external testing. We're the external testing phase. And we will do stuff to them that the engineers might not anticipate.
Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 05:51 PM
About that fast pan footage?
That certainly would help a bunch of people to decide.
I don't have any, but I can say that if it's 720/60p or 1080/60i or 720/24p you want, it'll do as good or better than the EX1, EX3, etc. So until someone gives you what you're looking for, take a look at EX1 footage and see what you think.
But if it's fast-pan 1080/24p you want... well... not gonna be the best for that in its current state. Hopefully a firmware update will be forthcoming that will make the 1080/24p skew performance comparable with all the other modes.
Justyn
03-10-2009, 06:03 PM
What's this about the lectro receivers? Something for audio or wireless video?
I"ve jumped ship to the SD150. But I'd have to say I'm interested in this camera for a couple of interesting points.
1. I want to get more filmlike narrow DOF with an interchangable lens options... that's amazing... and.... this would save about 2k in getting a 35mm package... along with allowing for the option to rent some good class.. That isn't too expensive an option...
2. Look at how EXPENSIVE this camera LOOKS. That's something for clients and I'd say it doesn't look like it's anywhere in the EX3 or EX1 class. Just looks like it should cost 5 or 10 times the money. In this world... Image kind of accounts for a lot with client perception. They want a big camera.. to justify big budget costs...
Man... EX1 sharpness... real lens.. and Panny MO-JO. I think this might be the EX series killer.. This camera coupled with the 150 for mor action stuff and run and gun and this might be a perfect combo... I might have to resind my P2 card rantings. This just looks so darn promising...
David Saraceno
03-10-2009, 06:06 PM
Again, this is also what I am looking at.
But it so difficult to evaluate when no professional video is even close by.
I've tried to correspond with the Seattle based Panasonic rep to take a look at the cam.
I've even offered to go to Seattle to view it.
but I can't get that confirmed at all.
Not the best when you aren't in a major city
Jan_Crittenden
03-10-2009, 06:40 PM
Again, this is also what I am looking at.
But it so difficult to evaluate when no professional video is even close by.
I've tried to correspond with the Seattle based Panasonic rep to take a look at the cam.
I've even offered to go to Seattle to view it but I can't get that confirmed at all.
He is busy. He has been in Alsaka this last week with his demo unit. He doesn't have time to lone it for a review. If you need a review, you need to contact me off line. We will put you in line. Ask Bill when he will be at a dealer near you. Not sure there is one on you side of the state. I am sure Bill will get back to you. But your initial communication to him seemed to indicate that you wanted the camera for longer than a look-see. Somehow you made it sound as though you need his camera for a review, I told him to hav you contact me for a review camera. That might be a breakdown in the communication. Bill should be back, if you just want a look-see, if you want to do a review, the contact me off-line.
Best,
Jan
Jan_Crittenden
03-10-2009, 06:43 PM
About that fast pan footage?
That certainly would help a bunch of people to decide.
I sound like a voice crying in the wilderness, but I'm one of those people who wants to evalaute footage, not charts.
Not trying to be a pest, but some native footage shot with this concern in mind might go a long way to sell a bunch of hardware
best :)
I will have some some but in the 720P mode going up soon.
Best,
Jan
David Saraceno
03-10-2009, 07:17 PM
I sent you an email Jan.
thanks
Buck Forester
03-10-2009, 07:45 PM
I think this might be the EX series killer...
??? You gotta love the "this camera will kill that camera" comments! No camera kills another, except usually the manufacturer of the said camera when they upgrade it. The HVX200a was an HVX200 killer.
Having three 1/2" chips in a small-form EX1 cannot be touched by any camera. You like "big expensive looking cameras" to impress... I like the smallest form factor with the highest quality I can get... I want impressive footage, not imprssive looks from others. And I'm not alone, that's the magic of the EX1 and why it is so popular. I can't mount a HPX300 on my kayak deck very easily, or take it easily on multi-day backpacking trips, or up a mountain, or snowboard with it. How is the HPX300 gonna 'kill' the EX1 in that regard? Three 1/3" chips in a large camera with interchangeable lenses that costs 1.5 times the EX1? I'm sure (and hope) there's a great market for the HPX300, I'm sure it'a fine camera, but it's certainly no EX killer. And if you gave someone shooting my kind of footage the choice of these two cameras, the EX1 or the HPX300, for the same price, I wouldn't even hesitate a second to jump on the EX1 and hit the hills. Cameras don't kill each other, ha!
Barry, Jan and Panasonic,
Bravo. This is what I'm talking about. Aknowledging the issue before the camera ships, looking for it and going for a solution. You knew this was going to be commented and tested ad nauseam by the people in the field, so it was important to hear this from Panasonic. It proves they know there's a problem and will try to fix it.
Having aknowledged the problem, however, I would find wise to really wait for the fix, at least for me. 1080 24p/25p is what I would mainly use the camera for shooting- that and 720 60p slow motion (this works fine, I believe), so if this mode is 80% worse than the EX1, than its obviously underperforming for digital cinema.
Barry, Jan, did the engineers said this was fixable? Is the Pn writting too processor intensitive to delay the read speed? The million dollar question is: is this fixable with a firmware update?
That's why I really urge Panasonic to hold the camera just that tiny bit longer. It can mean months, but while it won't damage Broadcasters perception and image of Panasonic gear, since they mainly use 60i/50i or 60p, in the Indie, Production house and content production companies, the camera, as is, can create a serious backlash and bad word of mouth- not unlike what the split screen effect did to the JVC100 series.
Do not rush it. If you are performing better in some modes, you can certainly improve on the one (major one!) that's lacking!
Justyn
03-10-2009, 09:43 PM
??? You gotta love the "this camera will kill that camera" comments! No camera kills another, except usually the manufacturer of the said camera when they upgrade it. The HVX200a was an HVX200 killer.
Having three 1/2" chips in a small-form EX1 cannot be touched by any camera. You like "big expensive looking cameras" to impress... I like the smallest form factor with the highest quality I can get... I want impressive footage, not imprssive looks from others. And I'm not alone, that's the magic of the EX1 and why it is so popular. I can't mount a HPX300 on my kayak deck very easily, or take it easily on multi-day backpacking trips, or up a mountain, or snowboard with it. How is the HPX300 gonna 'kill' the EX1 in that regard? Three 1/3" chips in a large camera with interchangeable lenses that costs 1.5 times the EX1? I'm sure (and hope) there's a great market for the HPX300, I'm sure it'a fine camera, but it's certainly no EX killer. And if you gave someone shooting my kind of footage the choice of these two cameras, the EX1 or the HPX300, for the same price, I wouldn't even hesitate a second to jump on the EX1 and hit the hills. Cameras don't kill each other, ha!
Actually they do kill people... financially and if it's big enough.. from falling on them.
Buck Forester
03-10-2009, 10:39 PM
Actually they do kill people... financially and if it's big enough.. from falling on them.
Of course cameras kill 'people', everyone knows this (I think cameras are the second leading cause of human deaths, second only to ladybug bites)... I said cameras don't kill other cameras. Unless they're cannibals.
Actually the outcome of the Panasonic is not impressive at all when you consider that the read reset of Cmos is happening across a 1/3 inch chip area compared to the larger 1/2 inch chip size area of the EX1.
The Sony EX1 gets more impressive everyday.
Of course cameras kill 'people', everyone knows this (I think cameras are the second leading cause of human deaths, second only to ladybug bites)... I said cameras don't kill other cameras. Unless they're cannibals.
Actually cameras CAN kill cameras. Take Barry and Jan's test for example. Invert the order of mounting of both cameras, add a matebox, follow focus, 35 MM adapter and rails to the HPX while you're at it and the EX1 would be very close to "killed"... :)
Is there a chance that grabbing one particular frame in time produces different results for each snapshot? So say 1 of 24 may be worse than 10 of 24?
Anyway, absolute respect to Panasonic et al for being this open and willing to do this. This kind of thing does more for me when making a purchasing decision than the product alone; to know how hard they try to please the consumer. Breeds loyalty. (even if Panasonic europe are not in the same ball park as panny stateside.)
kevinM
03-11-2009, 01:15 AM
Actually the outcome of the Panasonic is not impressive at all when you consider that the read reset of Cmos is happening across a 1/3 inch chip area compared to the larger 1/2 inch chip size area of the EX1.
The Sony EX1 gets more impressive everyday.
It is still scanning 1080 horizontal lines even though the chip is smaller, right?
It is still scanning 1080 horizontal lines even though the chip is smaller, right?
I think he is saying that due to the size difference of the chips-1/3 vs 1/2- if the results are very similar in most areas, the fact that one has a bigger chip will actually mean less skew when porsuing shallower DOF shots- A smaller chip requires a bigger zoom than a bigger chip for a similar DOF- which will mean, in practical terms, more skew.
PhantomVideo
03-11-2009, 05:10 AM
Yeah I gonna agree apples and oranges; i mean who cares who kills who i just want a camera that goes, no rolling shutter issues period, improvement all round is good I say, I used to think Phillip Bloom was sony bias, but thank God hes just a gr8 dp who wants the best gear, its about time panny got some stuff sorted I've been crying trying to shoot with these monitors (502, 202) nice test lets us know where that camera is at. I hope firmware will be a happening thing.
Barry_Green
03-11-2009, 07:16 AM
I think he is saying that due to the size difference of the chips-1/3 vs 1/2- if the results are very similar in most areas, the fact that one has a bigger chip will actually mean less skew when porsuing shallower DOF shots- A smaller chip requires a bigger zoom than a bigger chip for a similar DOF- which will mean, in practical terms, more skew.
I'm not sure how this makes any sense. With the same field of view, the HPX300 is showing the same or less skew in every case but one.
The relative magnification of the shot is what contributes to the skew level; the smaller chip will require more telephoto to match the DOF of the bigger chip, which will increase the magnification, but will be proportionally further away too, in order to match the field of view, which will decrease the magnification. The net result should be that regardless of chip size, for the same field of view the skew should be the same because the relative magnification and motion of the image should be the same.
Barry_Green
03-11-2009, 07:24 AM
It is still scanning 1080 horizontal lines even though the chip is smaller, right?
Yes.
Don't really get what the chip size is supposed to have to do with the skew; Jim Arthurs took a Red One and mounted an EX1 on top of it, just like I did with the 300/EX1, and he found that they had identical skew. The Red One's sensor is *massively* larger than the EX1's, yet the skew was the same.
Skew's skew. Sensor size (alone) is irrelevant, as to the amount of skewing going on.
Lonnie
03-11-2009, 08:04 AM
Reporting the good and the bad - like it! Thanks Barry.
...and, I'm a Final Cut Studio 2 kind of guy and haven't looked into it yet - but does FCP support AvcIntra 100/50 yet, or are we doing a transcode to Prores for now?
Thanks,
Lonnie
shapna
03-11-2009, 09:44 AM
I´m shaking in my bed dreaming what camera should i buy... horrible feeling. it´s like a junkie and he has to choose between 2 similar drugs. T_T sad.... to sad...
Waiting on improvements for the skew of the 1080/24p format.
thanks everyone for the details.
Damian
Barry_Green
03-11-2009, 09:46 AM
...and, I'm a Final Cut Studio 2 kind of guy and haven't looked into it yet - but does FCP support AvcIntra 100/50 yet, or are we doing a transcode to Prores for now?
As of today, Apple's FCP support for Intra is to use Log & Transfer to transcode to ProRes.
Yes, both ProRes 422 and ProRes 422 HQ. I've had that available for ages, did they just make it official or something?
In the Log and Transfer panel there is a preferences pane where you choose your transcode settings for both AVC-Intra and AVCHD.
This is also the pref pane where you can choose to remove pulldown from your flagged footage. (pA recording).
Barry_Green
03-11-2009, 01:56 PM
It's not new as of today (I'm assuming that's what you meant?) What I was saying is, as things stand now, you have to transcode. I don't know whether things will always be that way, but that's the way it is right now.
Cees Mutsaers
03-11-2009, 03:46 PM
is the problem also there in 1080/25p and 1080/30p ??
Barry_Green
03-11-2009, 04:01 PM
Didn't try 30p. Actually I can't think of why not, but I didn't try it. Should have.
As for 25p, I can't test that, the US market cameras don't do 25p...
Kenn Christenson
03-11-2009, 04:19 PM
As this was a prototype, any chance the production version of the camera will "skew/wobble" differently?
alexdias
03-11-2009, 05:37 PM
As this was a prototype, any chance the production version of the camera will "skew/wobble" differently?
The first step in a situation like that is to recognize the problem.
As per Barry's description the engineers were accompanying the test and left wit the same conclusions.
So I guess they will be working on a improvement ASAP. Which might take a while...
Kenn Christenson
03-11-2009, 05:46 PM
Guess I'll wait to purchase until all this shakes out. Unfortunately, 1080/24P is the main reason I'm looking at this camera.
alexdias
03-11-2009, 05:53 PM
ditto
Shipsides
03-11-2009, 10:05 PM
I'm guessing the test footage that Shipsides posted was shot in 1080/24p because it skewed like a muthuh, whereas the sample Central Park footage wasn't so bad, artifacty as it was.
My original footage was shot almost entirely at 1080 24p. This does explain a lot.
I did some similar tests, with the HPX300 & EX3 locked together, and came to the same conclusions. After reading your results Barry I compared the 720p modes and was really surprised. Great job on the tests.
I wonder if Sony had similar problems with the EX1 originally. Many people complain about the stuttered look of 24p on the EX line. I did not notice this on the HPX300. Perhaps they increased the read out of the chips in 24p which fixed one problem but caused another.
Andy
Kenn Christenson
03-12-2009, 10:09 AM
Although, I don't remember anyone, who owned a Red One, complaining when they increased the readout speed of their CMOS sensor. The problem with the EX1 may be the amount of detail enhancement used.
Kenn Christenson
03-13-2009, 09:52 AM
So, is the read out of the HPX300's sensors adjustable after the fact (by a firmware upgrade?) Just want to make sure, before I purchase.
Erik Olson
03-22-2009, 07:55 AM
I wasn't at this test, but did preview whatever version of the 300 was out three weeks ago. It does skew in 30p as well. 1080/60i is the least skewed of all framerates and formats. pN is the most noticable.
Any side by side comparison should be conducted on a remote head, where the pan speed is absolutely repeatable.
e
pixelator
09-26-2009, 02:53 PM
Barry (or anyone) have the current production HPX-300's improved the scewing in 1080 24? Mentioned this on another thread here, but selling my JVC HD110 and gear and looking at JVC HM-700 or HPX-300. These tests make me think for mu usage I should look more at the HPX-500 than the HPX-300 for sports and hand held fast work? Not that I mind too much, I liked the HPX-500 when I used it a couple years ago.
Cees Mutsaers
09-27-2009, 04:33 PM
No improvement, seems not possible with a firware update. Read somewhere that it needs an extra memory buffer (so hardware change). Maybe hpx300a in 2011.
Barry (or anyone) have the current production HPX-300's improved the scewing in 1080 24? Mentioned this on another thread here, but selling my JVC HD110 and gear and looking at JVC HM-700 or HPX-300. These tests make me think for mu usage I should look more at the HPX-500 than the HPX-300 for sports and hand held fast work? Not that I mind too much, I liked the HPX-500 when I used it a couple years ago.