May Be an Outlaw [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

nouou

03-26-2009, 11:22 AM

i just finished reading this, and i really liked it.

i didn't read your logline at first but i easily figured out that randolph is beatrice's father, good job on that. the scene where randolph sits in his chair in his house and has the gun aimed at the door, and then it's kicked open, reminded me of kill bill vol2, which made me like that scene alot more.

i didn't expect this to be so violent, but it's probably the most explicit script we have in the fest right now (which is good)

good job.

DarkElastic

03-26-2009, 01:21 PM

Hi XX, I just read your script, thanks for entering.

SPOILERS*

I thought this was a horrible story (in a good way) with the bad guys winning in the end, and the good powerless against them. The father and daughter are forced to bow to these monsters. There are some really powerful scenes in there and horrific. Some of your wording let it down though, there are better ways to descibe things and I found myself being pulled out of the moment because of this.
Your characters were well developed and your dialogue was very good. You set your scenes really well and grabbed my attention from the opening scene.
I am sure our definitions of a number 2 are quite different?!?!

Overall a really powerful piece, with a horrific story. Well done.

lawriejaffa

03-26-2009, 02:17 PM

Hey there! Yes this is definately a script that will split people and while reading it myself I found myself liking parts and disliking others!

In premise it follows the most basic principle of classic American westerns - the fight is over a woman! This setup was well represented here, we had the stage set, and potentially interesting characters - and a great and powerful opening scene! However for that to work it really needs some oomph (deeper - under the superficial gross descriptions and violent scenes) and this was a bit lacking I felt.

Horror requires contrast and challenge - and it definately needs a hint of worthiness or point to rise beyond mere exploitation.

For me this one teetered too much to the sadistic/misogynistic while yet the script had nothing to really say about these issues itself. Some of the sexual violence came across as titillating with the use of perhaps inappropriate descriptive words. (Especially as you are trying i presume to evoke sympathy for the girl.) Theres a big difference between the rape scene in a film like Irreversible and a Russ Myer pic.

Because these sexual violent acts occur in the context of an 'unchallenged' narrative, they end up coming across as 'self indulgent' ie. there for the sake of 'shlock rather than shock' which can give the script an unintented immaturity.

The merciful bandit at the end is a great finish (especially for what he does) but we need more of this hehe and it should be imo intertwined within the story (ie the redemptive arc is spread.)

The misogynistic stems from the lack of resistance or influence Beatrice has as a character and a women. Because there is no resistance seemingly from the towns people or anyone bar the (fairly pathetic father) it all seems a little 'staged' hence where the impression of sadism can come from.

Great films have experimented with sexual violence issues, perversity and you name it - one of the most contraversial and a favourite of mine is the Italian film ww2 set 'Salo' - where in that (far FAR FAR more explicit than the scenes written here) works because it has something to say, and the characters (terrifying though they are) have substance. One of many great lines from that film is from the character of the 'Duke' We fascists are the only true anarchists...

Edited Again - to make sense!

NJPage

03-26-2009, 03:21 PM

Wow! You are certainly getting some mixed reviews!
Some very explicit sexual scenes added to the tough hombre feel of the piece.
I'm a bit confused throughout the script though as to the status of Beatrice - alive / injured /dead - am I missing 'flashbacks inferred, but not defined or whot???

Bridget D.

03-26-2009, 06:16 PM

I really liked your script. Very dark - Wiley is just evil. I did wonder about the ending. I mean, why add the cowboy coming back through and helping Randolph? I think you could have just left it dark. Maybe I missed a point?

Also I liked your description of the dance - actually I thought the whole story seemed very visual.

NJPage

03-27-2009, 03:29 PM

Me again! I've just been reading what Bridget is saying and agree that, yeh, your script could lend more to the visual element than read through.
Good luck!

conlanforever

03-27-2009, 04:30 PM

A dark tale indeed. I'm fine when the bad guys come out on top, because sometimes thats just the way it is.

I didn't really feel emotionally connected to any of the characters, maybe I didn't know enough about them to really feel for them.

So I think it works that the bad guys have the upperhand that fits the tone of the script. Bridget brought up the fact of "why have the coboy come back at all" and I agree.
I actually think it fits the tone of the script better if it just fades out with the Father dragging his daughter across the desert in a futile effort.

You gave me somethings to think about. Nice work, thanks for sharing your vision.

TimCollins

03-27-2009, 07:36 PM

I agree, a dark tale and enjoyable in parts.

Not sure how I feel about the sex oriented violence here... not in a prudish way but rather I feel that it was more for shock value rather than, as lawrie put it, touching on the actual issues themselves.

But I did enjoy the storyline and thought it was well written and structured.

You certainly wove a dark tale that was, for the most part, effective.

xxrotinivol2

03-27-2009, 10:29 PM

Thanks for your responses. I’m glad many seemed to be taken by the read. Thanks to TimCollins, conlan, NJpage, Bridget, Lawriejaffa, Dark Elastic, and nounou! It all helps me out, so I'm very very grateful of your time, compliments, and criticisms. I'll focus on the criticisms:

Criticism 1:
"Shock over actual issues" - I see shock as the issue. In a state of shock, chaos reigns and people run or let down their weapons, they don't want to be shot, maimed, killed, and they let anything go. Wiley gets off expressing his dominance thru sexual and murderous violence, and people enter a state of paralysis. Who can still act?

Criticism 2:
"I did wonder about the ending" - The end shows two individuals who acted in the face of chaos: Charles and Beatrice. One acted against Wiley, and she is dead and fully disrespected. Charlie’s bad, and I don’t want that to be read necessarily as a redemptive moment. If he’s riding past them, he may as well give the old man some water and offer to bury Beatrice. He is very much a bade dude, but I wanted that point in there: some form of humanity exists within this point of chaos. He may be an outlaw, but he has respect for some things.

Criticism 3:
“Misogynistic stems from the lack of resistance or influence Beatrice has as a character” – She is the only character in the script who says “enough!” to Wiley. She runs off the horse, confronts him, ignores him, says “no” to him 3 times. She is disrespected, and at the mercy of a crazed lunatic, but I tried to write her as a hero who came on too late in her life.

A deeper exploration of the characters would be fun. I would like to spend more time on the language in the more difficult-themed scenes. I’m chagrined that this comes across as perversity for the sake of perversity to some, and I’d love to try a re-write sometime to flesh these ideas out more.

Thanks again, I look forward to reading more scripts and responses, and this is making me a stronger writer I feel.

lawriejaffa

03-28-2009, 06:24 AM

Yep I think the way you describe the scenes you perhaps don't sound like a neutral enough observer to this 'shock' but a bit of a cheerleader. From what you saying (if ive got it right) your wanting the shock to illustrate the chaos - a bit like say with 'High Plains Drifter' in that spaghetti style western (directed by clint eastwood) the town is cowardly, (and harbours some dark secrets of its own.) But anyway he comes into town, and with no opposition manages to rape a young woman that offends him.

But you see this occurs because the 'town is evil' basically. There is always an underlying reason that exists 'FOR' the shock to occur - otherwise its just tortureporn/titillating entertainment - thats how that element came across in yours. Also shocking events are only an expression of 'chaos' they don't happen by themselves. So its there in that chaos - of the towns peoples attitudes to protecting one of their own (or not) or a host of other reasons that your scripts meditation must lie.

I think definately the crits of the other points there can be resolved a bit through lending your script voice a more neutral stand point over the sexual violent scenes. I think also creating a narrative thread that lends more of a reason to these occurences.

I should just add that 'shocking' is easy weesy peesy :P it should be there to just add flavour to what you got going on under the hood ;)

xxrotinivol2

03-28-2009, 09:52 AM

Thanks for the conversation. I appreciate you taking your time.

"Shock and Awe are actions that create fears, dangers, and destruction that are incomprehensible to the people at large... [It's] the Pentagon’s code-name for a policy of deliberately killing the civilian population. The aim is to crush the will to resist. ” - Harlan K. Ullman, "Shock and Awe: Achieving Rapid Dominance."

If the U.S. government can have it be their main means of action, I just should be able to do it in a script. :) Shocking events are brought on by Wiley, they don't just happen by themselves, and it's all his expression towards not getting what he wants.

As Randolph says, "He always gets what he wants, and if he can't have you, he'll make your life and everyone around you a living hell. It's his way." We get thrown into the middle of Wiley not getting his way with Beatrice, he breaks down and elicits shock as a means of changing certain people to do what he wants and bend to his desires--however insane they may be. I don't think there should be hard and fast rules when shock should and shouldn't be used, and he uses this as a means of control, "to get enough gold to raise a family on," with Beatrice. Beatrice does rebel, she has another relationship, she spits at his feet, she runs away from Wiley. She instigates him from his perception.

That said, the second (or first) problem about me being a cheerleader for the violence. I tried to write the disturbing scenes with the same gusto and vividness as the dance scenes and the shoot-outs. If it came across as tasteless to you, I apologize, that was not my intent, and I will consider better word choice for the future.

Looking forward to reading your script soon! Working my way up the list.

Frank Witkam

03-29-2009, 01:28 AM

You brought up an interesting discussion with your script. Even though it's tasteless and goes pretty far, we keep on reading it till the end. Like Lawrie said, many films have experimented with it already, and the problem is, that if you don't try to say something with it that's obvious enough for the reader to understand, they will feel it's exploitation. I wouldn't say the script was 10 pages of exploitation, but some parts seemed to be, even if it's not what you intended.

Wiley was a real villain, but I think he needed a stronger antagonist. In my eyes he remains a flat character because he has no real conflicts, which is where his character would show more.

I did like some of the descriptions of the setting, they were very visual.

lawriejaffa

03-29-2009, 06:29 AM

Hey mate :) I'm all for shock and awe when appropriate haha ;) Yep tastelessness is something to consider with some of your words and scene settings. Remember if its rape - sexual assault etc you are hitting delicate notes. An unapolagetic / unsympathetic narrator can work but only if the audience / reader feels its justified.

I also know exactly how it feels to try and write and produce films of contraversial subject matter myself. In mine ive got a fair swell of atrocity that all occurs within a spaghetti (haggis hehe) western context - similar to fistful of dynamite. Even in that film there are scenes of genocide etc.

Funnily enough we find that easier actually than rape or detailed sexual molestation hehe - go figure eh! :)

I should add that my criticism doesnt mean overall that i hate the script!!! But its a point id like to make for your own benefit (and is also only my opinion one that may or will be totally contradicted by others.) As these things can often prove a 'distraction' to the highlights of your script and story (ie a word choice here or there.) I'm certainly not against magnificent sensationalism hehe :P

Oh and your posters cool too!

Blaine

03-29-2009, 02:04 PM

I think this would be a hard sell to the fans of westerns. You don't usually see graphic sex scenes in a western. These felt like they were her for titillation and shock value.

I think it would have been more in Wiley's character to just kill both her and her father. If he didn't when Charlie shows up later, I'm sure he would have as evidenced in this passage:
CHARLIE (mid-40s), a full-dark beard, a black leather suit, one of Wiley's cronies walks up and shoots Henry's forehead for a second time. Beatrice shrieks.

WILEY
Atta boy Charlie. Now can ya point
the gun at my slut of a girlfriend?
(to Beatrice)
Hey whore, don't move.

Charlie moves his gun to Beatrice. Wiley turns Henry's body
around, loosens Henry's belt, and tugs down his pants.Again, I just had a hard time believing the inconsistency of their actions.

I also think that an the old man in his 60s would have bled out long before he had the chance to pull her very far across the desert. After all, he had been shot at least twice with no apparent medical attention having taken place.

I could probably say a lot more about it but it seems that others already have and I'll just say that I have to agree with Lawrie on this one.

xxrotinivol2

03-29-2009, 02:30 PM

lawriejaffa

03-29-2009, 02:46 PM

My friend, you've had 3 comments from different people remark about how the sexual content came across as basically 'exploitation' and not as the means you intended it. (perhaps more than 3)

NOBODY is suggesting you were actually trying to write western rape porn lol rest assured of that. But please accept the criticism don't fight it - we're all on the same side.

If you send your script for a director and he reads it then you don't get to forum reply him with any justificiations over his mis-interpretation of your intentions. He'll simply think it and move on.

I'd say you've got a few thinking this about yoru script so obviously that is highlighting something needing fixed. Its not because we're prudish or wimpish or naive about the action nihilism of Die Hard :P

Giving advice is hard but taking advice is far harder!

Let me give you an example :)

//

Wiley hikes up Beatrices' skirt with his gun and puts the barrel to her butt... Wiley brings his head even to hers, bobbing it up and down.

WILEY
Tasty? Oh I know how much you like that taste.

//

Hehe right so we have slightly juvenile sexual dialogue and an sympathetic description of a rape/molestation. What you are describing would be traumatic and uncomortable to the audience - so your script must reflect that.

Heres an example i rattled off that attempts to de-tittilate the scene i quote abstractly above.

Beatrice claws at Wiley as he smacks her. Dazed, she whimpers in pain as he grabs greedily at her skirt. A pathetic attempt to humiliate her ensures when Wiley places his gun barrel by her exposed buttocks.

Wiley, a childish buffoon in heat, clutches her head and presses it crudely to his groin in a vain emulation of fellatio. Strength returning, Beatrice tears her nails tear into his wrists, but he is gone. Laughing like a child, beads of sweat dripping.

WILEY
Hehe Tasty? Oh I know how much you like that taste.

I think you might hopefully see what i mean by that example, its not sex your describing, its violence and you have to make sure of that. Truth is there is no sexual violence - just violence. I should just add that despite the discussion and so on - this isn't a huge mark down - we're just discussing to help. I think the story and 'angle' is good! I like it - i really do and i promise you that - but i think it needs rewording imo :P

Blaine

03-29-2009, 02:51 PM

Bruce Willis -- Die Hard. Bleeds a lot, no medical attention. He's fine. If Randolph is able to walk the shots wouldn't have shattered his knee cap or anything. This isn't "Goodbye Solo" or anything. I'm not going for realism.

Wiley wants to teach Beatrice a lesson, he doesn't want to kill her until she up front denies him, the magic number 3 times. Charlie is trying to impress Wiley and show his loyalty by already shooting at a dead body.

Graphic sex this is not. Sexual violence this is.I was very tempted not to give you any feedback because I saw how defensive you were getting about it. But I took the time to read it and since the purpose of the forum is to give feedback, I felt you deserved that courtesy.

The story you've written is no Die Hard.

xxrotinivol2

03-29-2009, 02:59 PM

Thanks Blaine, thanks Lawrie, and thanks everyone else who has responded. The more critical the better, I'm just trying to explain the puppy. It would've been sweet to have written Die Hard, and I'm thankful for your feedback.

lawriejaffa

03-29-2009, 03:10 PM

Yep xxrotinivol i hope my example helps put across the point i mean? What do you think Blaine?

Blaine's given great feedback on these threads so its worth taking note :) But we're all peers - my last script was contraversial rotini - it dealt with a public official who murders his own infant child (wow a real sell for pulpfest... what the hell was i thinking lol)

Tim Joy

03-29-2009, 04:10 PM

I couldn't connect with this at any level, and I was trying. I didn't see any point to it all.
Sorry I can't be more helpful, but I think you have some chops, and maybe a different story and some characters that I could relate to at least a LITTLE bit and you would have something.

imagining this as a produced movie, I couldn't see myself watching it for very long, and it might be hard to cast the part of Beatrice.

REHov520

03-30-2009, 10:22 AM

I liked this one in it's unrelenting cruelty. I think the western genre is one of the few that would allow this sort of story to work; the lawlessness of the west allows this sort of extreme evil to exist and grow.

Lawrie touched on this before, but I think with this subject matter you have to be extremely careful in your use of language. You have to become as detached as possible. If you use indulgent language it will be as if the writer is getting a kick out of these heinous acts, but if you use unbiased, detached language, it will seem more as if Wiley is the only one getting a kick out of it. I think you should do a rewrite and just try to change the language to become as detached as possible.

Also, I thought we might benefit by knowing more about Wiley's background, but then I thought more and now I'm not so sure. I thought of the Joker from the Dark Knight, and how he's just an unexplained, natural force of chaos with no backstory. And that worked. Still, there seems to be something missing with Wiley. Maybe it's because it's a short, or maybe it's because it's just a script and we aren't able to see his performance. Still, I want to know something more about him other than that he's a cruel, murderous bastard.

Regarding Charlie at the end, I like that you're trying to redeem humanity a bit, but I think you're hitting us too hard over the head with this point. The "may be an outlaw" line is just too obvious and literal for me, and the fact that it's the title of the script just pushes it over the edge for me that you're trying to make one very specific point. I'd lose that line, maybe change the title (?), and make that whole scene more subtle and natural. Maybe Charlie doesn't even have to speak at all? Let the audience come to their own conclusions about what Charlie does and what that means, don't spell it out for them.

Still, a very moody, nihilistic story that I'll remember for a while. You've got the mood and story down, so with an overhaul of the descriptions and some work on the characterization I think this could be a pretty awesome script.

RodThompson

03-30-2009, 10:51 AM

...(thinks of something to write)...

Okay, um...well...my first thought was a bit rude if read unlike the way I would verbally deliver it. So, I'll keep it to myself, because the joke will be lost and you most likely won't laugh.

Now, for the script itself...just too damn brutal and worthlessly raunchy. The dilogue, when not talking about blow jobs, staggered and just had me saying, "Who would say that?" Honestly, and I'm not being a prick, but the subject matter mixed with the unnatural flow of dialgoue pulled me so far out of the script I just gave up.

Now, I know you're thinking, if you didn't finish it, why are you posting something? Well, that's an easy one. Because you need to hear it, or you may find yourself in this position again.

While you may have set this in the west, it's not a western. It's seriously like Lawrie said, a rape fetish, soft-core porn. I get the whole jilted lover gig, and this necrophilic act is his way of getting revenge, but the very well written script is written about something no one wants to read.

I mean honestly, a dude leaning over a dead guy forcing a chick to blow him with a gun on/in her ass? I just can't get over this...

If this were SexFest, or something of the likes, this would fit right in...but I'm sorry. For an awesome writing style, the story completely kills the cred.

MrKilloran

03-30-2009, 11:00 PM

um... I've gotta agree with a few of the reviewers here, there could have been a more... elegant way of going about this.

I think the cruelty is clear and has potential but description wise it comes off merely as exploitation cinema and not much more, missing some quality.

It sort of falls flat, I got nothing out of your characters so that when Charlie has that moment of redemption it felt hallow, maybe you should have him more opposed to Wiley to show or hint that he has something deeper throughout the script.

Mark C

04-01-2009, 03:45 PM

So I think that out of all the villains we have seen in this fest, Wiley has got to be one of the most (if not the most) evil! Man this guy is bad and you did a good job of making us dislike him. The story was a bit disturbing but you had me glued from beginning to end. I'd like to know a little more about why Wiley was such a jerk and what made Charlie come around at the end. I think it was really cool to tie the "I may be an outlaw" line into the script and there might be something more to that. Like maybe if Charlie had some of those redeeming qualities demonstrated a little earlier in the story, it would give those final scenes even more pop. I would have loved to see Wiley get shot or something at the end it would have been cool if Charlie was the one who did it but those are just some suggestions. Thank you for sharing your story!

jamiejay

04-01-2009, 10:30 PM

i loved the opening scene! it was brilliant :)

unfortunately, i wasn't as excited by the rest of the script.

the graphic sexual violence just didn't work for me... and not that i was appalled by it at all... it's just that it took me out of the story and made it hard for me to take the rest of the script seriously...

also, the whole scene where he sets her up to make it look like she stole a bottle from him so he could come after her didn't make sense to me. didn't he just shoot a guy in the head in the middle of a crowded dance, then shoot her in the leg and make her perform a sex act on a corpse? why would he care if he had an excuse?

i would have liked to see it end as it began as someone said earlier...with her father dragging her through the desert. it's a powerful image! ;)

nice work on your writing style and description. thanks for sharing!