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Uwe Lansing
03-03-2009, 09:25 AM
... with 1080/24p and 720/60p. A huge competitor for Nikon D90 and Canon 5DII...
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09030315panasoniclumixdmcgh1.asp

MJ Peg
03-03-2009, 09:47 AM
Full-HD (1920 Ũ 1080) movies are output by the image sensor at 24p (NTSC)/25p (PAL), and recorded at 60i (NTSC)/50i (PAL). HD (1280 Ũ 720) movies are output and recorded by the image sensor at 60p (NTSC)/50p (PAL).

OPTIONAL : MJPEG at 1280 x 720, 30fps

dadoboy
03-03-2009, 10:10 AM
AVCHD - nice :)

Ian-T
03-03-2009, 10:11 AM
You think there's going to be a but-load of D90's on Ebay soon? Yeah....I can see that happening.



http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/0903/Panasonic/pana_gh1_mic_001.jpg

manglerBMX
03-03-2009, 10:14 AM
not sure how i feel about these new four thirds lenses. i do like mic input and onboard mic combo, 1080 & 720 modes and manual contorls. this camera is very very interesting. wonder what its going to be price wise? the g1 kit sells for just under $700 on b&h. no mention yet of the gh1 pricetag anywhere i can find.

ZazaCast
03-03-2009, 10:22 AM
Quick....somebody get Zak a bib!

Uwe Lansing
03-03-2009, 10:41 AM
...wonder what its going to be price wise? ...

About Euro 1550,- with the 14-140 lens. The glass alone costs roughly Euro 900,-...

Zim
03-03-2009, 10:42 AM
It is still not a Nikon

mrmoe
03-03-2009, 10:42 AM
Very Nice. Now only if Nikon will make an announcement :(

Jay Birch
03-03-2009, 10:59 AM
It is still not a Nikon

Yep, it's Panasonic, even better. A company who has alot of knowledge about filming.

I'll be keeping me eye out on this one.

Coco Bermudez
03-03-2009, 11:05 AM
I wonder how is the jello effect and if i can use all my Nikon lenses with it.....

Eddy Robinson
03-03-2009, 11:07 AM
I've been lurking here for two years, but seeing the specs on this I finally caved in to register and post. Please excuse me starting off with a drool post, but I've been ruminating on the possibilities for this camera since last year - until I make more money and Red actually delivers a Scarlet, this is the camera that I hoped would hit the magic buttons of price, image quality, and user control in a compact package.

Might I also say a big hello and thank you to all the DVXuser posters from whom I have learned so much over the last few years. I've been working in film and video since 2004, mainly as a sound person; I've been leaning more and more towards shooting my own stuff and these forums are by far the most helpful I've found for making the most of digital video.

Now, onto the camera...

This one is WIN - congrats to Panasonic for biting the bullet and taking a risk of competing with their camcorders, and i'm sure Nikon and maybe Canon will respond too. The 1080p/24fps has already been pointed out. I still respect the D90 for leading the way in this area, but this is why I think the GH1 is the awesome:

Surprisingly Detailed Panasonic Product Page (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=332733&modelNo=Content03032009032503558&surfModel=Content03032009032503558)


The LUMIX GH1 kit lens – the LUMIX G VARIO HD 14-140mm/F4.0-5.8 ASPH./MEGA O.I.S. –provides a broad focal length range of 28-280mm (35mm camera equivalent) and supports continuous AF using the contrast AF system for both photo and movie capture. The low-noise lens design also seamlessly supports video recording by minimizing the mechanical sound generated by AF/AE actions.


Autofocus may be a very useful thing to have if it's fast and accurate. Mechanical sound i really don't care about - I'm an ex-sound guy so I would always use an external recorder and a TC slate anyway, making it no big deal to sync in post. But the onboard audio capability of the camera (including the external mic) is a great design choice - enough for many casual shooters, and a useful extra option for sound pros with their own gear (like lenses, you can't have too many microphones).


high speed Live MOS sensor

It'll be interesting to see what flavor the Jello comes in...but their smaller Lumix DMC-LX3 is pretty smooth for most purposes. I have a tiny Minox CMOS cam which does such extreme jello that it's actually useful as a special effect. Don't have a D90, but the Lx3 footage on Vime seems a bit steadier than the Nikon - observe the verticals in the BG of this short vimeo clip: http://www.vimeo.com/1622475


In addition to the digital camera’s HD video recording capability, the DMC-GH1 features the LUMIX Creative Movie mode which lets the user manually set the shutter speed and aperture, making their videos more creative and representative of their own personal video style preference. Changing the shutter speed gives the videos a special look, particularly suitable for shooting fast-moving subjects. Controlling the aperture is convenient when there are several subjects at varying distances, so the user can focus on the foreground and blur the background – or vice versa.


:engel017:

I see it, but I don't quite believe it. THANK YOU PANASONIC, YOU JUST MADE A SALE.


Best of all, the benefits of Panasonic’s iA mode extend to motion image recording on the DMC-GH1. For example, the LUMIX GH1 motion iA includes O.I.S. and Face Detection, which automatically detects a face in the frame and adjusts focus, exposure, contrast, and skin complexion. Intelligent Exposure continually checks the ambient light level and adjusts the exposure setting as conditions change to prevent blown highlights and blocked shadows. Intelligent Scene Selector automatically switches between Normal, Portrait, Close-up, Scenery, and Low Light modes according to the environment.

I'm assuming such trickery is optional, based on my experience with other cameras in the Lumix range (I have one of their point and shoots and really liked how much freedom it offered). If this is correct, then it's further win since these automatic features would be very useful for fast shooting when you just want to grab what's there rather than setting up a shot - especially run and gun shooting, or single-shot scenes where you don't need to match with footage from a different angle. On other Lumix models the auto-settings usually offers a 'sensible' selection that still respects the dominant visual characteristics of the scene, rather than imposing a 'one size fits all' template - that is, I've got results I like just by focusing on the composition and accepting the auto-selections. But it offers all the freedom I asked for in manual mode too. One of the first shots I ever took on that camera was where I white-balanced on an orange surface, then pointed it at a CFL lightbulb and stopped it down - and got a beautiful result.

If the design philosophy of the GH1 is similar, it will probably be very accessible and forgiving for casual snappers and home movie folks, while still offering a LOT of flexibility in a small package for people who know what they want.

Oh, and 720p@60fps? Nice one! I'll shut up now, and conclude by saying that this is the new DVX for me, and probably many others.

Uwe Lansing
03-03-2009, 11:23 AM
A little bit more...
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/21656/panasonic-lumix-gh1-review/

Coco Bermudez
03-03-2009, 11:29 AM
pardon my ignorance...but what the hell is a four thirds lens? and how does it differ from my regular Nikon 35mm lens?

William_Robinette
03-03-2009, 11:52 AM
I had a low end Pana Lumix a while ago and chose it because of the amount of control in all aspects of the image it gave me. It was awesome. Hopefully this camera will follow suit in the video mode. Nothing said about being able to control the ISO though.

Hopefully Panasonic were smart and went to talk to their video guys before assembling this camera (doubtful but we can still hope!).

mattsand
03-03-2009, 11:57 AM
wonderful news. i've been waiting for it since announced but i thought it would take longer. i'm a little bit worried by "now makes the popular ia mode available for movie recording" though. there's gotta be manual control on it, right? i never understood the need for automatic exposure on a camera with a wysiwyg viewfinder (i hope it has a live histogram and maybe zebras too). i guess for people who don't know what exposure is it helps, but at over $1k? well, as long as i can turn it off and mount my nikkors on an adapter. i refuse to fly by wire, and definitely not in the dark (f/4, what were they thinking?!?).

/matt

mattsand
03-03-2009, 12:00 PM
what the hell is a four thirds lens? and how does it differ from my regular Nikon 35mm lens?
it's a lens mount. it differs by having a different mount. technically the bayonet is different as well as the flange distance.

Uwe Lansing
03-03-2009, 12:00 PM
...but what the hell is a four thirds lens?...

Some infos you can find here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0808/08080501microfourthirds.asp

mrmoe
03-03-2009, 12:03 PM
(f/4, what were they thinking?!?).

/matt


I thought the same. ;)

mrmoe
03-03-2009, 12:05 PM
http://www.letsgodigital.org/images/artikelen/38/gh1.jpg
http://www.letsgodigital.org/images/artikelen/38/panasonic-lumix-dmc-gh1-test.jpg
http://www.letsgodigital.org/images/artikelen/38/panasonic_lumix_gh1.jpg

Park Edwards
03-03-2009, 12:07 PM
i'm down if there'll be nikon mount avail

Andrew Brinkhaus
03-03-2009, 12:18 PM
Something I couldn't find in the documents... What's the sensor size on this? Do we know yet? (I'm not referring to MP count).

Park Edwards
03-03-2009, 12:20 PM
http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dx428wg_10fdvsmtd7

you can use nikon lens on the g1, i suppose it'll be the same for gh1

ultrab
03-03-2009, 12:21 PM
It's written 24p recorded in 60i. I'm not sure it's a good idea.

shiny4
03-03-2009, 12:23 PM
yes,
cameraquest has nikon mount:
http://cameraquest.com/adapt_olyE1.htm

look here for comparation of sensor size:
http://rebelsguide.com/dl/sensorSizes_06_cheatSheet.png

Park Edwards
03-03-2009, 12:32 PM
hmmm, problem is your wides won't be wides anymore.

they say that a 50mm would be halved down to 100mm

that turned me away. i'll wait for a new nikon.

Eddy Robinson
03-03-2009, 12:37 PM
Something I couldn't find in the documents... What's the sensor size on this? Do we know yet? (I'm not referring to MP count).

Similar to super 16mm: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Four_Thirds_System

60i -> 24p is not optimal, but it's well-enough established on other gear that there are good post workflows for dealing with it. I'll be happy with 'very good' rather than 'perfect' in this price bracket.

Yes, the lens is a bit slow. But since different lenses can be used, and again at the price point, I can deal.

Car30, I understand if you are already invested in Nikon glass, but Panasonic are also offering a wide micro 4/3 lens: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0903/09030313panasonic7-14mm.asp Downside is it's also quite slow.

Uwe Lansing
03-03-2009, 12:47 PM
First video samples:
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/movie.html

Barry_Green
03-03-2009, 12:51 PM
Similar to super 16mmSimilar to super 16mm
Actually it's way, way bigger than Super16. S16 is 12mm x 7mm (for 84 square millimeters of area). Four Thirds is 17.3 x 13mm, for about 225 square millimeters, or about three times the size of Super16. When cropped to 1.85:1, S16 is 12mm x 6.5mm, delivering 78 square mm. Four Thirds is 17.3 x 9.4 for 163 square mm, or just over twice the size of Super16.

In comparison to a 2/3" camera, a 2/3" sensor is typically 9.6mm x 5.4mm, or about 52 square mm in 16:9 aspect ratio. A 16:9 Four Thirds sensor would be 17.3 x 9.7, or about 168 square mm, over three times as large as a 2/3" camera.

In comparison to a full 35mm movie frame, the movie format is 22mm x 12mm, or 264 square mm. Which makes the Four Thirds format about 60% as large as a full frame of 35mm film.

So, quick summary without the math:
Four Thirds is 2x as large as Super16, and 3x as large as a 2/3" video sensor.
It's about halfway between 35mm movie film and Super16 movie film. Accordingly, the depth of field should be shallower than Super16 but deeper than 35mm.

Uwe Lansing
03-03-2009, 01:12 PM
Hmm..., the data rate is a bit weak:
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/specifications.html

17mbps for FHD isnīt really stunning...

Coco Bermudez
03-03-2009, 01:32 PM
So, quick summary without the math:
Four Thirds is 2x as large as Super16, and 3x as large as a 2/3" video sensor.
It's about halfway between 35mm movie film and Super16 movie film. Accordingly, the depth of field should be shallower than Super16 but deeper than 35mm.

Barry:

what is your take on this camera? Thumbs up or down? Promising?

Eddy Robinson
03-03-2009, 01:33 PM
My bad. I mentally figured in the reduced lens-sensor distance in micro4/3 (which is what you get by not having a mirror and optics) and forgot that the sensor size is actually the same as full 4/3. Anyway, I'm not complaining.

This page (http://rebelsguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2408&start=15) (on another forum) has some critical comparisons between the specs for the GH1 and the actual performance of the HMC150, particulary with regard to light sensitivity and in the context of the GH1 lenses being pretty slow at f.4.


First video samples:
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/syste...gh1/movie.html

Cool. First impression is very close to what I expected. One of the related pages has some footage of a little girl hugging a dug, with both bright sunlight and shadow due to tree cover. My feeling is 'good enough' - I like what I see very much, and on past experience I think I'll be happy to live with the inevitable limitations.

By the way, many other interesting details on the other pages at that link, which are not in the press release. Like a zooming focus assist, that works in both manual and auto mode! ISO limiting in auto mode, and too many neat still features to mention. The more I read, the more I like.

On a completely unrelated note, funny that it's available in black, red and...gold?! Who wants a gold-colored camera? Weird. I would have sort of liked blue as on the G1, but for video work I'll probably be picking black anyway.

Barry_Green
03-03-2009, 01:34 PM
17mbps for FHD isnīt really stunning...
It's quite a bit better than HDV though. You have to keep in mind this is AVC, not MJPG! 17mbps of AVC should be almost as robust as XDCAM-EX.

PaPa
03-03-2009, 01:41 PM
very interesting...

But as state, if you do end up losing your wide end on your 35mm lenses, due to the chip size, that kinda screws lens owners. Even if adapters are available for Nikon Glass.

Barry_Green
03-03-2009, 01:42 PM
Barry:

what is your take on this camera? Thumbs up or down? Promising?
Never even bothered to look at it; I haven't bought into the whole DSLR-as-a-movie-camera thing yet. I bought my kid a D90 and it's rubber jello city, with no audio recording, so -- to each his own, I guess.

For those who want to use a DSLR as a movie camera, at least this one has a mic jack and manual exposure controls. I don't know anything about the 4/3 lens selections, and f/4 is pretty weak; even though it's a bigger sensor than S16 you'll need a 1.4 lens on it to really get 35mm-ish DOF.

On the plus side, it uses a standard video format (AVCHD) so you'll be able to edit it. On the down side, 24p is embedded in 60p or 60i; it'd have been even nicer to get it recorded "native".

In short, it looks cute, it offers 720/24p and 1080/24p and 720/60p for slow-mo, but what does the footage look like and is it rubber-city?

Jason Ramsey
03-03-2009, 01:44 PM
I bought my kid a D90 and...

uhm.... Dad.... I need a new laptop :)

Later,
Jason

Coco Bermudez
03-03-2009, 01:47 PM
Never even bothered to look at it; I haven't bought into the whole DSLR-as-a-movie-camera thing yet. I bought my kid a D90 and it's rubber jello city, with no audio recording, so -- to each his own, I guess.

For those who want to use a DSLR as a movie camera, at least this one has a mic jack and manual exposure controls. I don't know anything about the 4/3 lens selections, and f/4 is pretty weak; even though it's a bigger sensor than S16 you'll need a 1.4 lens on it to really get 35mm-ish DOF.

On the plus side, it uses a standard video format (AVCHD) so you'll be able to edit it. On the down side, 24p is embedded in 60p or 60i; it'd have been even nicer to get it recorded "native".

In short, it looks cute, it offers 720/24p and 1080/24p and 720/60p for slow-mo, but what does the footage look like and is it rubber-city?

much appreciated your input....maybe when you buy into the DSLR movie camera thingy we will see writing some awesome books and DVD's about the subject!

:)

Coco Bermudez
03-03-2009, 01:47 PM
any idea when this is available?

Eddy Robinson
03-03-2009, 01:50 PM
And finally...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13580_3-10187098-39.html implies an aggressive pricing policy for the US market at least, perhaps less so in Europe where the Lumix brand is already well-established. Although there's a substantially better lens on the GH1 and it does the video thang, the < $700 price of the G1 is encouraging.

squig
03-03-2009, 02:10 PM
uhm.... Dad.... I need a new laptop :)

Later,
Jason
no dad I need a steadicam for my rubbercam!

Eddy Robinson
03-03-2009, 02:19 PM
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/gizmodo/2009/03/IMG_2363.jpg


http://i.gizmodo.com/photogallery/lumixgh1hands/1007469631


Besides video, the camera is otherwise identical to the G1, a Panny rep confirmed—even the screen is the same. And the electronic viewfinder still sucks. =( It should theoretically, he said, have slightly better noise reduction, but that's about it for other differences.

They're being stingy with the price and release date. All the rep would venture is by summer, and for under $1500, neither of which is very helpful—-it better be out by summer, and it better be under $1500, by god. But for now, it will be the cheapest DSLR still camera with swappable lenses to shoot 1080p HD video, which counts for something.

Evro
03-03-2009, 02:21 PM
This still says consumer cam to me, I wonder how it would hold up being subjected to professional use... besides, that huge crop factor alone would render my stack of Nikkor lens useless for anything but telephoto work. This camera looks like it's a point and shoot not an SLR - right? I bet it's high ISO will be as noisy as the Sony Alpha series.

Although I think the image from this little camera would match our HMCs nicely I'm going to hold out for Nikon's second generation VDSLR.

I am a Panasonic fan boy, but have to agree with one of the previous comments "It's not a Nikon" - how can you compare over 60 years of camera/lens R&D to a company that started making video cameras in the late 80's?

squig
03-03-2009, 02:29 PM
It's good to see the HDSLR competition is hotting up. I've found some info on leica M, zeiss zm, and canon FD lens mount adapters http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2008/12/leica-lens-to-p.html. I'm not sure if a nikon to canon fd adapter will work......but I'm sure somebody will be trying it soon.

If Nikon don't get their act together in the next couple of months and the panasonic has manual iso and shutter control I'll be defecting. The 17Mbps AVHCD should be a big improvement on the D90.

Nikon are you listening?

squig
03-03-2009, 03:08 PM
Just confirming a nikkor lens mount is in the works http://www.cameraquest.com/adp_micro_43.htm

from what I can tell it has full manual control of shutter and ISO in movie mode.

I really expect Nikon to get their act together by summer......or else

The question I have is does it have an uncompressed HDMI output?

mattsand
03-03-2009, 03:23 PM
they say that a 50mm would be halved down to 100mm
from 24x36 yes, from dx it's just a 25% reduction. your 50mm would have the field of view of a 67mm on 4/3 and your 24mm 32. this makes it easy to find normal and wide lenses, but very hard to find extreme wide angles. you need to get down below 14 and there are very few nikon primes in that range.

/matt

Park Edwards
03-03-2009, 03:37 PM
well, that wouldn't be too awful bad. maybe I'd end up selling my nikkors for some cheaper canon fd lens. but this video you can see the exposure shift automatically. same horrendous problem we thought the d90 was going to have, but here to hoping it can be locked. look at it shift when she's in the grass.

http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_b.html

edit: looks like on the back there is an AF/AE Lock

William_Robinette
03-03-2009, 03:38 PM
from 24x36 yes, from dx it's just a 25% reduction. your 50mm would have the field of view of a 67mm on 4/3 and your 24mm 32. this makes it easy to find normal and wide lenses, but very hard to find extreme wide angles. you need to get down below 14 and there are very few nikon primes in that range.

/matt

No because there is only one set of focal length numbers. A 50mm is a 50mm no matter what size chip or film frame it is projecting onto. Therefore a 50mm lens on a 4/3rds system would have half the viewable area as a 50mm on a full frame 35mm system resulting in a 100mm FF35 equivalent FOV but without as much foreground-background compression.

So yes, it is a 25% reduction from DX, but added to the amount of reduction DX is from a full frame 35mm sensor.

mattsand
03-03-2009, 03:38 PM
even though it's a bigger sensor than S16 you'll need a 1.4 lens on it to really get 35mm-ish DOF
i totally agree that f/4 is ridiculous but the sensor is actually much closer to 35mm academy than it is to super 16, i always thought the full frame 35mm people use in 35mm adapters had too shallow dof for movies, nothing like what i'm used to on the big screen. and as a former pro focus puller i always welcome those extra centimeters. :-)

i want to see some night footage, that's where the other vslr's have excelled over regular video cameras. and is it too much to ask for some that's correctly white balanced? i know blueish footage looks sharper, which they say is the reason tv sets are always too blue, but i'm neither my mother nor my neighbor. i want things to look good first, correct second, sharp maybe sixth, blue not at all.

/matt

Coco Bermudez
03-03-2009, 03:41 PM
well, that wouldn't be too awful bad. maybe I'd end up selling my nikkors for some cheaper canon fd lens. but this video you can see the exposure shift automatically. same horrendous problem we thought the d90 was going to have, but here to hoping it can be locked. look at it shift when she's in the grass.

http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_b.html

i see it....yuck!

mattsand
03-03-2009, 03:45 PM
No because there is only one set of focal length numbers. A 50mm is a 50mm
you're talking to the wrong guy, i'm the one who usually brings that up. :-) he's using his lenses on a dx camera so that's what he's comparing to. *especially* since a 50mm is always a 50mm it doesn't make sense to talk about crop factors unless you state what you're referring to. if you take a lens from a dx camera and put it on a four thirds it becomes 25% tighter, that's what's important, not what happens if you introduce an imaginary full frame camera in the equation.

/matt

William_Robinette
03-03-2009, 03:51 PM
you're talking to the wrong guy, i'm the one who usually brings that up. :-) he's using his lenses on a dx camera so that's what he's referring to. *especially* since a 50mm is always a 50mm it doesn't make sense to tlk about crop factors unless you state what you're referring to.

/matt

I reread what you said and I understand now. But I have never ever heard anyone use DX as a baseline for comparison in lieu of full frame 35mm when making comparisons like that and that's what threw me off.

Rylan
03-03-2009, 03:52 PM
I see a AF\AE lock button on it so that's a relief .
Wish it was native 24p/60p native.Can't wait to see some slowmo footage with this.

mattsand
03-03-2009, 03:59 PM
I have never ever heard anyone use DX as a baseline for comparison
there's no baseline, it always depends what you're referring to and in this case it's the d90, a dx camera, one that i happen to know that he's using his lenses on. only consumer video camera manufacturers seem to use "35mm equivalent" much, and that's not where i come from. i've never heard it in motion picture photography and i've shot most cameras and most formats. if anything we use 35mm as a baseline, which is almost identical in size to dx, go figure.

/matt

Park Edwards
03-03-2009, 04:02 PM
I was just going by this website where the one line says

http://www.cameraquest.com/adp_micro_43.htm

Field of View is 1/2 that of 35mm cameras: Micro 4/3 cameras have a much smaller format than 35mm cameras. A 50mm lens via adapter on your Micro 4/3 camera will still be a 50 mm lens, BUT its field of view will be halved down the field of view of a 100mm lens. A 25mm adapted lens has the field of view of a 35mm format 50mm lens, etc.

mattsand
03-03-2009, 04:05 PM
exactly, the field of view is half of "full frame" (5d/24x36) but only 25% smaller than "dx" (d90, s35, etc).

/matt

Park Edwards
03-03-2009, 04:14 PM
right, we're all on the same page now. anyone have some raw avchd footage i can try out on my pc? see how well i handle it.

Zack Birlew
03-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Interesting but it all depends on how the footage looks when it's not compressed for the web. Remember how the early D90 web stuff turned out? Not bad, but nowhere as good as people had expected.

I think the D90 is still relevant though. It's still a great camera and does very nice video in the right hands. The tweaks that you have to do to get the video to look really good is about the only weakness but sometimes stuff on auto will look nice as well. I love using the 18-200mm on it when filming outside, so convenient. I really wish there was a way to adapt as many lenses to F-mount as there are for the 4/3 mount. Leica M lenses would be very nice, especially the Noctilux lenses.

But if the video is really that good and everything, I may consider selling my two D90's. Hopefully by then Nikon will have something else out or Canon would have come to their senses about the 5D Mark II's lacking features, either way it's a win.

But the only problem here is if RED is on time by this summer, nobody will be paying attention to this or any other video DSLR (VDSLR), the $3,000+ Scarlet should be out and taking all the glory.

mattsand
03-03-2009, 05:03 PM
the "cheap" scarlet has a 2/3" sensor and a fixed zoom, so it's really "only" competing with prosumer video cameras. if you want a large sensor, interchangeable lenses and a nice price it's not what you want.

/matt

squig
03-03-2009, 05:33 PM
All Nikon needs to do to compete with the panny is bring out a D90 firmware update with full manual control and less compression......how hard could it be!

squig
03-03-2009, 06:01 PM
From the lips of panasonic- "In addition to the digital camera’s HD video recording capability, the DMC-GH1 features the LUMIX Creative Movie mode which lets the user manually set the shutter speed and aperture, making their videos more creative and representative of their own personal video style preference. Changing the shutter speed gives the videos a special look, particularly suitable for shooting fast-moving subjects. Controlling the aperture is convenient when there are several subjects at varying distances, so the user can focus on the foreground and blur the background – or vice versa."

Park Edwards
03-03-2009, 06:08 PM
mark me as one the guys who could care less about the scarlet. plain and simple. i don't want a fixed zoom and my machine isn't going to edit any of their files without a serious upgrade.

PappasArts
03-03-2009, 06:21 PM
So these are samples from G1-HD. The G1 is very intriguing............

http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_a.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_b.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_c.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_d.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_e.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_f.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_g.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_h.html


Michael Pappas
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
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http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

Nektonic
03-03-2009, 06:31 PM
mark me as one the guys who could care less about the scarlet. plain and simple. i don't want a fixed zoom and my machine isn't going to edit any of their files without a serious upgrade.

I'm starting to look at the Scarlet as something to keep an eye out for in the next 1.5 to 2 years. I doubt that it will be out by this summer since RED announced that they have had set backs with suppliers and that delays should be expected. Even so, unless they've got a ton of them made, it could be awhile before they catch up to demand. Plus, I'd rather wait and see how the post workflow is in another 9 months to a year and see what early users say about the Scarlet once that info is available. I also want to wait and make sure all the kinks get ironed out before I purchase one.

Right now the video capable DSLR's are very interesting to me. I think that whoever figures out how to put this DSLR HD video Live-view mode and DSLR size sensor tech into a prosumer/professional camcorder body combined with true 24p, 30p, 60i, 60p and both 720p and 1080p modes, in addition to full manual control and a good codec (AVC-HD at a minimum of 24 mbps) all with an affordable recording media which would be either compact flash or SDHC cards, will be the big winner. It would probably be an even bigger deal than when the original DVX was released. Panasonic or Canon would be my best guess as to who will do it first. I really hope that it can happen. Until then, I'll explore these video capable DSLR's.


So these are samples from G1-HD. The G1 is very intriguing............

I'm liking the looks of these clips. Thanks for posting.

mcgeedigital
03-03-2009, 07:17 PM
the "cheap" scarlet has a 2/3" sensor and a fixed zoom, so it's really "only" competing with prosumer video cameras. if you want a large sensor, interchangeable lenses and a nice price it's not what you want.

/matt

What other "prosumer" camera shoots 3K?

Coco Bermudez
03-03-2009, 07:43 PM
mark me as one the guys who could care less about the scarlet. plain and simple. i don't want a fixed zoom and my machine isn't going to edit any of their files without a serious upgrade.

I for one could also care less...I am tired of their attitude of "everything can change". It seems to me that they spend more time playing with CAD renders of 3D prototypes than actually coming up with a solution. Who knows...maybe they will come out with something for NAB...but i seriously doubt it.

Zack Birlew
03-03-2009, 07:56 PM
All Nikon needs to do to compete with the panny is bring out a D90 firmware update with full manual control and less compression......how hard could it be!

Cut to the Nikon R&D department where a Nikon engineer is screaming into the camera while pulling his hair out with other engineers tossing papers into the air and performing other craziness.:)

artforme
03-03-2009, 08:00 PM
Wow, I'm impressed by the camera. It seems like it could be wonderful, and I really like the audio input, manual controls, and option between 24 and 60fps.

I used to shoot stills on the four thirds standard. Four Thirds has some of the overall sharpest glass available, but the biggest weakness is very few fast lenses. And the focusing system on four thirds is a little strange because it's electronic based.

So the G1 and other future Four Thirds camera's might be more ideal for those who do not need extreme shallow depth of field. But it does make me excited to think what the other DSLR competition's response will be.

And regarding the RED, I still have hope that they will make something awesome and worthy with in 5 years time. But the Scarlet still seems like a rad camera depending on one's shooting style.

Uwe Lansing
03-03-2009, 08:09 PM
It's quite a bit better than HDV though. You have to keep in mind this is AVC, not MJPG! 17mbps of AVC should be almost as robust as XDCAM-EX.

Yes maybe, but the 5DII works with H264/AVC too even so with a bitrate of around 40mbps. To my knowledge the actual AVCHD specs are 24mbps. But lets wait + see how the native image quality will look like...

ScrollLock
03-03-2009, 10:56 PM
So these are samples from G1-HD. The G1 is very intriguing............

http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_a.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_b.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_c.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_d.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_e.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_f.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_g.html
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_h.html



Thanks for the links!

Unfortunately there seems to be an exposure issue. When you look closely at the background of the 2nd and 3rd scene in movie_b for example you can see it "jumping in brightness" a few times.

Hope this is due to pre-production firmware and will be fixed -- or hopefully can be worked-around by locking exposure at the begin of a shot.

again, thanks for posting! ScrollLock

John Caballero
03-03-2009, 11:12 PM
When you look closely at the background of the 2nd and 3rd scene in movie_b for example you can see it "jumping in brightness" a few times.

That is old news with these types of cameras. A simple exposure lock does the job. You can see the button for that to the right side of the viewfinder. The clips must have been shot in auto exposure mode because according to the literature you can control both shutter speed and aperture manually.

Andrew Brinkhaus
03-03-2009, 11:48 PM
To be quite honest I'm not that impressed. Colors are weak, too much edge sharpening, looks like video, don't like the motion cadence from the 60i wrapper...Maybe some (or all) of this is coming from the weak web compression.

Only time will tell.

Evro
03-04-2009, 12:02 AM
Honestly folks, based on the above samples the D90 with all it's faults produces much more filmic looking footage.
This new Panasonic seems nothing more than a do-it-all consumer toy - it doesn't seem to come anywhere near the greatness of other consumer cameras that crossover to the prosumer camp (like the HV30).

Eddy Robinson
03-04-2009, 12:08 AM
Panasonic's page does mention that it can be limited, so at the very least you can set a max ISO. Now, previous Lumixed (lumices?) I've used let you set the ISO manually if you want - they didn't allow it for movie mode, but then they didn't allow you to control shutter or aperture or focus either.

We can only speculate until it's released or the manual leaks online, but I'd guess that the GH1 will allow user control. The design philosophy of the Lumix range seems based on offering a wide selection of automatic/preset modes, but never to force them. Manual mode offers manual control and the camera shuts up and does what it's told, for good or ill. I fell in love with the first one I used because it offered convenience and configurability depending on which you need at a given moment.

So far the GH1 appears to follow the same philosophy. I don't think we can judge too much from the sample movies...but I'd be extremely surprised if Panasonic put out a whole extra camera just to do movies (over the G1) and then denied owners the ability to manage exposure. The sample movies and ad copy seem more geared to reassuring less fussy users that the camera can take care of that if they don't want to be burdened with it.

Bear in mind that we movie-making control fetishists make up a small part of the market. Many of the general public want their automatic features, which is Panasonic they're making a big deal of the autofocus working in movie mode etc. - because 90% of people think like 'this is a $$$ camera, how come it can't even stay in freaking focus'. I'm sure you've seen many of the dumb comments on the d90 and 5d2 from general consumers and even photographers who think video is no more than some kind of marketing gimmick. I guarantee you'll see some going '24p? Pff, the Canon 5d2 can do 30, Panasonic stuck in a cheap-ass sensor' in the next few days.

jamesmallonuk
03-04-2009, 12:25 AM
Dosen't anyone care about the audio!!! I still haven't heard confirmation that the audio levels will be manual or auto, if they're auto then you have the same problem as the 5d. I also haven't heard anything about a headphone socket to monitor audio. Until these things are in there it can't be used seriously without a lot of extra gear.

squig
03-04-2009, 12:30 AM
The biggest drawback with the panny is its smaller sensor 2x crop factor. That really sucks if you want to use fastish wide lenses. I'd have to use a 20mm instead of a 28mm to get the same FOV. Only problem is the 28mm is f/2 and the 20mm f/2.8. There goes the shallow DOF and low light perf.

My prediction is that Nikon will bring out a full frame D??? with manual control and a better codec by mid year......a swing out LCD would be a nice addition.......in the meantime give us a bloody firmware update!

Park Edwards
03-04-2009, 12:45 AM
people and the audio.

alexandroff
03-04-2009, 12:53 AM
these are great news. true competition will always push others to evolve or fall. awesome that panasonic was brave enough unlike canon to not worry about jeopardizing their video divisions or whatever other corporate reasoning and lead the way...

i'll wait around for a few months (currently happy with my D90) and see what nikon responds with. there's also a rumor of another firmware update from canon for the mark 5d II.

it will only get better for dslr filmmakers from here, and hopefully things speed up a bit

dcloud
03-04-2009, 02:12 AM
the more capabilities a low end camera has, the more extra capabilities will be added to the bigger cams :)

Im here to just wait and see for gh1's raw footages.

mattsand
03-04-2009, 02:28 AM
What other "prosumer" camera shoots 3K?

few, which why it can compete. otherwise it would offer almost nothing over the rest. besides since this discussion is about the lumix and the d90 in relation to the red i don't think the number of pixels is the first priority, which is my point. people who want interchangeable lenses and large sensors aren't likely to pay three times as much for something that doesn't give them that, while the prosumer crowd who like crisp images from small sensor video cameras might, especially since for them it would be cheaper.

/matt

shiny4
03-04-2009, 04:40 AM
WHO KNOWs IF this new live mos sensor of gh1 has global shutter or rolling shutter??

dcloud
03-04-2009, 04:56 AM
expect rolling shutter. be surprised if its global shutter.

BMFM FILMS
03-04-2009, 06:08 AM
Eh I'm not dumping my D90 for this. Nikon needs to come up with a higher end model, that's the only way I'll dump my D90.

Starscream
03-04-2009, 06:46 AM
eh i'm not dumping my d90 for this. Nikon needs to come up with a higher end model, that's the only way i'll dump my d90.

+1

Robert Altman
03-04-2009, 07:26 AM
The importance of good lenses cannot be overemphasized--cinematographers spend a lot more time picking out the right glass for a shot than the right camera body! I am sure that Nikon primes are far superior to the fixed zoom (I think) glass on the Panny.

Is Nikon listening? Does ANYONE on this board have a contact in Nikon to make sure they here are requests? Is a firmware upgrade giving us manual control SO hard to write?

mattsand
03-04-2009, 07:26 AM
i am, and then i'm dumping it right back for the next nikon. :-)

mattsand
03-04-2009, 07:33 AM
I am sure that Nikon primes are far superior to the fixed zoom (I think) glass on the Panny
i think you're wrong. it's not fixed and four third lenses are often super sharp, so will the micro four thirds i'm sure. leica don't have a reputation of making bad lenses, neither do olympus or sigma (not even sigma). after all they sell in the $1,000 price range (and there are primes too). my problem with them is that they don't have real rings, no aperture, no zoom, even the focus is motorized as far as i know. the sigmas look better, they're in the f/1.4-f/2.8 range and have real controls (except backwards compared to nikkors of course).

/matt

Barry_Green
03-04-2009, 08:13 AM
And you can always just use your Nikon lenses anyway...

Uwe Lansing
03-04-2009, 08:38 AM
The opion of Stu Maschwitz:
http://prolost.blogspot.com/

Polanski
03-04-2009, 08:42 AM
This is the camera I was waiting for... It's a slap on the face for Nikon D90 and Canon 5dmII. Does anyone know where I can download a raw 1080/24 of this baby?

Park Edwards
03-04-2009, 10:09 AM
i am, and then i'm dumping it right back for the next nikon. :-)

i'm probably on the same boat. just a little sad about the crop factor.

Park Edwards
03-04-2009, 10:10 AM
This is the camera I was waiting for... It's a slap on the face for Nikon D90 and Canon 5dmII. Does anyone know where I can download a raw 1080/24 of this baby?

nothing out yet.

mattsand
03-04-2009, 10:12 AM
i want this lens, or better yet the same but in micro format:

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-Zuiko-14-35mm-Digital-Cameras/dp/B000X1P5R4

/matt

tomaob
03-04-2009, 10:23 AM
i dont know, but in this video i can not see any rolling shutter issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akSvf1uvDXs

any full res clips already available?

Barry_Green
03-04-2009, 10:31 AM
i want this lens, or better yet the same but in micro format:
You could use that lens; you just would need the 4/3 to Micro 4/3 adapter.

Barry_Green
03-04-2009, 10:32 AM
i dont know, but in this video i can not see any rolling shutter issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akSvf1uvDXs

Watching that, it definitely shows rolling shutter skew. We won't know what degree until we get some hands-on, but yeah, it's definitely there.

Park Edwards
03-04-2009, 10:35 AM
i want this lens, or better yet the same but in micro format:

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-Zuiko-14-35mm-Digital-Cameras/dp/B000X1P5R4

/matt

there is a micro four third lens that's 24mm 1.4? it's a pancake lens and no bigger than the palm of a hand. can't find the link, saw it last night.

mattsand
03-04-2009, 10:35 AM
You could use that lens; you just would need the 4/3 to Micro 4/3 adapter.
of course, why else would i want it?

/matt

mattsand
03-04-2009, 10:37 AM
there is a micro four third lens that's 24mm 1.4? it's a pancake lens and no bigger than the palm of a hand. can't find the link, saw it last night.
yeah i've seen that too. great for snapshots, not so great for manual focusing for movies, especially not if you have a puller.

/matt

mrmoe
03-04-2009, 11:00 AM
Panasonic Product Managers Breaking down the G1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dol1S3OweI

Available in Nov 2009

Eddy Robinson
03-04-2009, 11:04 AM
Watching that, it definitely shows rolling shutter skew. We won't know what degree until we get some hands-on, but yeah, it's definitely there.

You can tell from a fuzzy shot where the LCD display of the gh1 is waving around relative to the lens of the main camera? Color me skeptical. What I see on the camera doesn't look fantastic, but a low-res shot of a lo-res display is not a useful guide to anything. Hopefully someone at PMA or someplace will sneak their own SD card into the camera long enough to grab a little footage within the next few days.

This sameple movie from the panasonic website has some twitchy lateral movement and verticals in the background, and doesn't seem to suffer from major jello: http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/popup/gh1_movie/movie_d.html While it isn't enough to put the question to rest, it's grounds for cautious optimism.

grifter09
03-04-2009, 11:48 AM
there is a micro four third lens that's 24mm 1.4? it's a pancake lens and no bigger than the palm of a hand. can't find the link, saw it last night.

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/products/lense.html

Barry_Green
03-04-2009, 12:05 PM
You can tell from a fuzzy shot where the LCD display of the gh1 is waving around relative to the lens of the main camera?
Yes. It's obvious. Can't everyone see it? Look at the background as he pans it between objects to focus on, there's major slanting going on. Look at the background at around 0:37.


While it isn't enough to put the question to rest, it's grounds for cautious optimism.
Why? Every single rolling shutter camera has the same issues, and they will continue to have. Every new camera it seems like people hope and pray that it'll be different, and they always get their hopes dashed.

The footage shows skew. The final product most likely will as well. But hey, if you want to hope otherwise, feel free to I guess.

Park Edwards
03-04-2009, 12:35 PM
there's a difference between jello and skew...all cmos cameras have skew. the d90 however has jello.

Eddy Robinson
03-04-2009, 12:36 PM
Yes. It's obvious. Can't everyone see it? Look at the background as he pans it between objects to focus on, there's major slanting going on. Look at the background at around 0:37.

I really can't tell how much skew is on the LCD and how much is a result of the gh1 itself moving around in front of the camera. The most 'bendy' vertical I see in the thing is around 0:17, but again, it's going through so many layers of a/d/a conversion I don't see how one can draw a solid conclusion.


Why? Every single rolling shutter camera has the same issues, and they will continue to have. Every new camera it seems like people hope and pray that it'll be different, and they always get their hopes dashed.

Well, the speed with with the data is read out from the sensor is a factor too.

mattsand
03-04-2009, 01:47 PM
there's a difference between jello and skew...
not really. jello is vertical skew. the amount is what differs.

/matt

Park Edwards
03-04-2009, 02:09 PM
then we're just arguing semantics at this point. i've panned up and down and never had any vertical skew on the d90, however, if i pan left and right it displays skew rather horribly. if i shake the camera, it just looks like "jello". where the an hv20 or red doesn't have "jello", just mainly skew.

mattsand
03-04-2009, 02:40 PM
it's not semantics, it's reality. you never saw it because it's harder to see, but at high frequencies it becomes obvious. let's call jello "fast skew" then if you will. it's the exact same thing that happens with all rolling shutter cameras only to various degrees. if there's skew there's jello, if there's a lot of skew there's a lot of jello, if there's little there's little. they are 100% connected and you can't have one without the other and you can't have more or less of either relative to the other.

/matt

Jay Birch
03-04-2009, 04:05 PM
Why? Every single rolling shutter camera has the same issues, and they will continue to have. Every new camera it seems like people hope and pray that it'll be different, and they always get their hopes dashed.

Is it not a case of how much skew though? Even from that short clip... people can be optimistic that the skew is vastly improved over the d90.

The 5DII showed very little skew when the first clips started to appear .... surely that was a reason for the canon users to get (justifiably) optimistic?

Barry_Green
03-04-2009, 04:26 PM
then we're just arguing semantics at this point. i've panned up and down and never had any vertical skew on the d90, however, if i pan left and right it displays skew rather horribly. if i shake the camera, it just looks like "jello". where the an hv20 or red doesn't have "jello", just mainly skew.
The HV20 most definitely has jello, it was the original "jellocam". Look at Russ Andersson's helicopter footage for the original "jello" footage.

Skew is a shearing from horizontal movement. The same thing happens in the vertical, but it results in something other than the image leaning; instead the image stretches or scrunches. If you put all that together (stretching, scrunching, and leaning) you get "jello".

Helicopter footage from HV20: http://www.ssontech.com/content/skool.mov

Barry_Green
03-04-2009, 04:30 PM
Is it not a case of how much skew though? Even from that short clip... people can be optimistic that the skew is vastly improved over the d90.

The 5DII showed very little skew when the first clips started to appear .... surely that was a reason for the canon users to get (justifiably) optimistic?
We'll see, obviously. Zoom setting and frame rate have a big effect on how much skew there is. We had people flatly denying that the EX1 had any skew whatsoever, and then we had Dan Brockett posting clips that showed massive skew from an EX1. It's all about the relative magnification of the object, and the frame rate.

Shutter read/reset time does have an effect as well, of course. But I guess all I'm saying is: it's gonna skew, we can see already that it does, and all CMOS cameras on the market today skew. That's just the way it is. Some might do it worse than others, that's true, so if there's room for optimism it might be that you hope it'll skew like a professional video camera and not like an HV20, but either way it's still going to have it. The only question mark possible is "to what degree"? As in, will you find it acceptable?

Someone at a trade show should get their hands on one and do a skew-off against a D90 so people can quantify it.

jamesmallonuk
03-04-2009, 04:49 PM
Sorry to interrupt with a boring audio related post. Looking at the sample clip on the bottom right of the birds by some water: http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/movie.html

It sounds like a space ship is landing just behind them. I am thinking the audio levels are automatic which was a major problem with the 5DII. It will drive you crazy trying to do interviews or any quiet sounds. The camera will pump up the levels in a quiet environment until it sounds like your in a sandstorm. The only work around is the external recorder, which starts to get ridiculous when a good quality one might be bigger than the actual camera and then all the sync issues in post.

Honestly I hope I'm wrong and the audio is manual, but even if it is I dont see any headphone socket to monitor it. The absence of sound on most of the clips also is worrying. It will be sad if its true because otherwise this could be the perfect documenatry makers run and gun solo camera.


Why is it no-one seems to be asking any questions about audio or cares? :crybaby:

Park Edwards
03-04-2009, 05:10 PM
you're right, the hv20 does have "jello" but you're comparing it in a helicopter. the d90 looks like that when you're walking on a memory foam mattress. i'm sure the gh1 will have "jello" under harsh circumstances like if you put it in a dryer. my idea of jello is not panning left or right and seeing skew, but rather, when you walk the image looks like well "jello" and it's not very visible in the ex1 or red or hv30 and 5dII.

Eddy Robinson
03-04-2009, 05:42 PM
Why is it no-one seems to be asking any questions about audio or cares? :crybaby:

Because it's about as good as it's going to get on a camera of this size.

First, the noise on the clip you mention is due to excessive compression. I'd bet money that it was recorded from the built-in mic rather than the external one; not sure whether it has the 'wind rumble' turned off or not (a low pass filter) but I would never expect anything other than tinny transistor noise from an onboard mic like that.

Second, the option to plug in an external microphone is a good compromise. The little stereo one with the hot-shoe adapter offered by Panasonic is, dare I say it, cute. On the downside, it requires external microphones to be 'Dolby compatible - so no feeding it from a mixer. You can get decent and affordable mics besides the Panasonic one, but I'm fairly sure the point of this decision was to drive accessory sales. I'm sure the Panasonic mic isn't fantastic, but it's probably average, which these days means quite good. I bet someone will offer a box to convert incoming line signals (ie from a mixer) before long.

Third, OK, so we have to consider external recording solutions, oh noes. Well, I do have a DAT recorder which is a giant brick that's bigger than 3 of these cameras...but I'd suggest a ~$300 Zoom H4/H4n which will do a great job, including allowing you to plug in expensive condenser mics. You can of course spend a lot more, but the H4 is very good and very compact. The new one records BWF, which means a timestamp in the audio metadata.

Fourth, If you're doing anything serious, you should be using an external mixer of some kind anyway. Nobody in their right mind trusts the camera for onboard mixing, any camera. This is why I'm not too worried about whether it has automatic gain control or not, though I suspect not. I mean seriously, you plan adjust focus manually AND manage two dials to adjust the audio level in real time? No, I didn't think so.

Fifth, but you'll have to sync it all up with an external recorder! Oh noes! Well, put on your big boy/girl pants and sync it up then. IT AIN'T THAT HARD. Frankly, I am constantly amazed at how video shooters paint this as some sort of epic struggle. Did you know that film cameras don't record sound at all? Yes, everything ever shot on film has been synced up in post! That's one of the main reasons to use a slate ($50-$60 for a basic one at any film equipment retailer). If you have a lot of money, you can shoot with a timecode slate and pay lab about $150/hour extra to automagically match up the audio in telecine, but most indie films do it by hand.

(Protip: you can also just point the camera at the display of the audio recorder or hold the recorder up in front of the camera before each shot. Bingo - you've got a frame-accurate timestamp reference for picture and sound. Don't worry so much about timecode issues - modern digital clocks and NLE software are so accurate that sync is a non-issue as long as you plan and do a few tests in pre-production.)

I've done it for a few features and more shorts than I can count. Sure, it's kinda boring. It can take a whole week or longer to do for a feature. Fortunately, nowadays you don't have to listen to/watch it all play back in real time as you capture from DAT or miniDV tape, youc an just hook up the USB port and copy the files, saving many hours of work.

Really. Double-system is a lot simpler than most people realize, and you'll get better results in most cases. As an audio guy myself, I view the onboard audio of this camera as a handy bonus - to be frank, I wouldn't care that much if it were just mono or had no external input, as I'd just go back to using a slate or similar.

Evro
03-04-2009, 06:06 PM
you're right, the hv20 does have "jello" but you're comparing it in a helicopter. the d90 looks like that when you're walking on a memory foam mattress. i'm sure the gh1 will have "jello" under harsh circumstances like if you put it in a dryer. my idea of jello is not panning left or right and seeing skew, but rather, when you walk the image looks like well "jello" and it's not very visible in the ex1 or red or hv30 and 5dII.


I believe (correct me if I'm wrong please) that the jello effect on the D90 has something to do with possibly a slower sampling rate of the CMOS sensor combined with the slow 24P frame rate?

Could explain why the jello effect is not as pronounced on the 5DMK2 footage (30P instead of 24P)?

jamesmallonuk
03-04-2009, 06:27 PM
Cheers Eddy I appreciate your answer. your right the sync issue is not a big problem at all. I guess though I am coming it as someone wanting to produce documentaries as a man man crew.

I would debate that no one in their right mind would use the onboard camera mix, look at James Longley the director of 'Iraq In Fragments' who was nominated for an Oscar who has posted on this forum and recorded all audio from the DVX100a. The documenatry is noted for its excellent use of sound.

The bottom line is if I was shooting a movie or a documantary with a large crew then who cares about the audio on the camera, but trying to make yourslef blend in to the backgroud as you shot documentary footage is tricky with an external recorder. It can be done though Its not ideal.

PappasArts
03-04-2009, 06:47 PM
Thanks for the links!

Unfortunately there seems to be an exposure issue. When you look closely at the background of the 2nd and 3rd scene in movie_b for example you can see it "jumping in brightness" a few times.

Hope this is due to pre-production firmware and will be fixed -- or hopefully can be worked-around by locking exposure at the begin of a shot.

again, thanks for posting! ScrollLock

Your Welcome.

Most of the time they shoot this stuff in auto mode for the marketing demos, that might possibly be the reason for the fluctuations. The camera does allow full manual control, which is such a slap in the face to Canon for not doing the same on the 5d MII. As for skew, Cmos/Mos do it, some worse, some less. The HPX-300 / PMW-EX1 does skew and jellovision in telephoto. For some reason tele exacerbates the issue. Same with Red, 5D etc. The G1 looks to be on par or maybe better than the Canon 5D in this respect. Of course those clips are hardly a good example to form any concrete opinion. S0 we must wait for further analysis.......

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Eddy Robinson
03-04-2009, 10:28 PM
I would debate that no one in their right mind would use the onboard camera mix, look at James Longley the director of 'Iraq In Fragments' who was nominated for an Oscar who has posted on this forum and recorded all audio from the DVX100a. The documenatry is noted for its excellent use of sound.

Totally - it remains to be seen how the acessory mic performs on GH1 (or more specifically, what happens to the audio once it's in the camera). One upside is that I noticed it records at 48khz so there are gounds for optimism.

I was thinking more of narrative work where you have a floating boom and wireless mics coming in, and the expectations are a lot higher than for documentary, where you can set a safe level and leave it there. For narrative I ride the gain on the mixer a lot because you might have an actor go from whispering to shouting n one scene but it all has to sound smooth.

Park Edwards
03-04-2009, 10:57 PM
link says "probably under $1500.00"

http://i.gizmodo.com/5163657/hands-on-panasonic-lumix-gh1-1080p-hd-video-shootin-micro-four-thirds-camera

PappasArts
03-05-2009, 01:03 AM
Looking at this video news piece on the GH1. I noticed in the background on the large plasma or LCD screens is the footage that is the posted clips on the web site. Did anyone go to PMA , and just happen to watch these to report how it looked...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiFRYQeowcw&fmt=18

The 8 minute news piece is on the GH1 exclusively, which the reporter at the end stands in front of a large screen of HD footage from the camera.....



Michael Pappas
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13th Judas
03-05-2009, 02:35 AM
so,does it record continuous video or it has a video recording time limit? because of its form, it could be nice for guerilla works. just hang it on your neck and no body will suspect that you are filming. cool :)

mattsand
03-05-2009, 02:42 AM
you're right, the hv20 does have "jello" but you're comparing it in a helicopter.
again it's just a different in scale. you said skew was ok but not jello, and it simply doesn't work like that. if something is one inch long it's also 2.54mm, that's how they are connected, they're *the same thing*. it's not meaningful to discuss whether one has jello or "just" skew, or vice versa. what can be discussed, and must be, is how much they have compared to each other. the d90 has alot, many cell phones even more, the hv20 and red one much less. simple as that.

/matt

Gordon Prince
03-05-2009, 02:56 AM
Because it's about as good as it's going to get on a camera of this size.

First, the noise on the clip you mention is due to excessive compression. I'd bet money that it was recorded from the built-in mic rather than the external one; not sure whether it has the 'wind rumble' turned off or not (a low pass filter) but I would never expect anything other than tinny transistor noise from an onboard mic like that.

Second, the option to plug in an external microphone is a good compromise. The little stereo one with the hot-shoe adapter offered by Panasonic is, dare I say it, cute. On the downside, it requires external microphones to be 'Dolby compatible - so no feeding it from a mixer. You can get decent and affordable mics besides the Panasonic one, but I'm fairly sure the point of this decision was to drive accessory sales. I'm sure the Panasonic mic isn't fantastic, but it's probably average, which these days means quite good. I bet someone will offer a box to convert incoming line signals (ie from a mixer) before long.

Third, OK, so we have to consider external recording solutions, oh noes. Well, I do have a DAT recorder which is a giant brick that's bigger than 3 of these cameras...but I'd suggest a ~$300 Zoom H4/H4n which will do a great job, including allowing you to plug in expensive condenser mics. You can of course spend a lot more, but the H4 is very good and very compact. The new one records BWF, which means a timestamp in the audio metadata.

Fourth, If you're doing anything serious, you should be using an external mixer of some kind anyway. Nobody in their right mind trusts the camera for onboard mixing, any camera. This is why I'm not too worried about whether it has automatic gain control or not, though I suspect not. I mean seriously, you plan adjust focus manually AND manage two dials to adjust the audio level in real time? No, I didn't think so.

Fifth, but you'll have to sync it all up with an external recorder! Oh noes! Well, put on your big boy/girl pants and sync it up then. IT AIN'T THAT HARD. Frankly, I am constantly amazed at how video shooters paint this as some sort of epic struggle. Did you know that film cameras don't record sound at all? Yes, everything ever shot on film has been synced up in post! That's one of the main reasons to use a slate ($50-$60 for a basic one at any film equipment retailer). If you have a lot of money, you can shoot with a timecode slate and pay lab about $150/hour extra to automagically match up the audio in telecine, but most indie films do it by hand.

(Protip: you can also just point the camera at the display of the audio recorder or hold the recorder up in front of the camera before each shot. Bingo - you've got a frame-accurate timestamp reference for picture and sound. Don't worry so much about timecode issues - modern digital clocks and NLE software are so accurate that sync is a non-issue as long as you plan and do a few tests in pre-production.)

I've done it for a few features and more shorts than I can count. Sure, it's kinda boring. It can take a whole week or longer to do for a feature. Fortunately, nowadays you don't have to listen to/watch it all play back in real time as you capture from DAT or miniDV tape, youc an just hook up the USB port and copy the files, saving many hours of work.

Really. Double-system is a lot simpler than most people realize, and you'll get better results in most cases. As an audio guy myself, I view the onboard audio of this camera as a handy bonus - to be frank, I wouldn't care that much if it were just mono or had no external input, as I'd just go back to using a slate or similar.And with no use of slate? Does the Zoom H4/H4n have the same possibility as a tascam p2 for example?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/405341-REG/Tascam_HD_P2_Portable_CF_Stereo.html

"The HD-P2 is equipped with comprehensive SMPTE and Video synchronization."

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/969645-post7.html

"You don't even technically need to use a slate, you could record a wild track through the camera and your professional sound through the p2."

Emanuel
03-05-2009, 03:04 AM
Totally - it remains to be seen how the acessory mic performs on GH1 (or more specifically, what happens to the audio once it's in the camera). One upside is that I noticed it records at 48khz so there are gounds for optimism.

I was thinking more of narrative work where you have a floating boom and wireless mics coming in, and the expectations are a lot higher than for documentary, where you can set a safe level and leave it there. For narrative I ride the gain on the mixer a lot because you might have an actor go from whispering to shouting n one scene but it all has to sound smooth.Why? Is that so bad to have 44kHz such as happens with the 5D MKII?

Eddy Robinson
03-05-2009, 02:14 PM
Moderators - I'm happy for this to be moved if necessary. I wrote it out here because I feel it will be particularly helpful for people shooting with the newer cameras like the d90 or GH1 where sound may need to be captured separately.


And with no use of slate? Does the Zoom H4/H4n have the same possibility as a tascam p2 for example?

[...]

"The HD-P2 is equipped with comprehensive SMPTE and Video synchronization."

Not exactly. The HD-P2 outputs a SMPTE timecode signal which you could use to drive a smart slate (ie one that displays timecode) or a Lockit box going to the Genlock input on a pro camera. The HD-P2 is pretty nice, although I have had reliability and signal path problems. It was new then, it might have been an early model problem.

Zoom gear will not output timecode like this - that's one of the things you pay a good bit more money for. See below on the workaround.


"You don't even technically need to use a slate, you could record a wild track through the camera and your professional sound through the p2."

Yeah...but you'd still need to synchronize some way. Let me break post sound tech down very simpl(istical)ly.

A: BASIC SLATE
The slate serves two purposes. One is that you write on it with a dry erase marker the scene, shot and take you are shooting and display that info to the camera before every take (and speak it for the sound guy). For obvious reasons, having this is absolutely invaluable for the editor.

The other is the clacker, the stick on top of the slate which makes a bang when it's closed. It's easy to see on what frame the slate closes (this is why the stripes are on it) and the sound of the clacker being closed makes a very thin high peak in the audio waveform. After you've done a lot of audio editing, You get used to seeing the distinctive shape and can easily pick out the head of each take by eye.

Syncing up video and picture is a simple matter of locating the video frame on which the slate closes, checking the scene-shot-take against the scene-shot-take called out for the audio recording before the camera rolls, and then dragging the audio clip line up with the video frame.

It sounds elaborate, but becomes very quick with experience. You could do 3-400 shots per day (realistically).

B. TIMECODE
As you know, audio used to be recorded on analog tape, with big reel-to-reel devices. Unfortunately, Tape is subject to tiny variations in speed, giving rise to phenomena called 'wow' and 'flutter' where the pitch warbles ever-so-slightly. Over time, these minor variations can cause sound to drift out of sync with picture.

Timecode was invented to help overcome this: by recording a low-frequency square wave on the second track of the tape, the wow and flutter could be measured and corrected for in the studio. Additionally, it can be used to drive a slate over a cable or even wirelessly: so if you shoot film, in telecine you just pause the film at the start of the take, read the #s on the slate from the screen, type those into a Studio DAT deck (or straight into the computer) and have it cue up the relevant audio for you. Then you press the play button, and the film strip plus the audio play back in sync, including any pulldown you are doing in the USA.

C. Shooting Video
...is almost the same. You run a cable into the camera and derive timecode directly from the audio recorder (which by tradition rather than necessity, is always the master clock source). Or you set the same frame rates on camera and audio recorder and use the timecode slate method outlined above.

If audio and picture are recorded at different frame rates, then you run into big problems, because - most often - the audio is running 0.1% slower than the video and the two drift out of sync over the course of a long take. Actually it happens on every take but it's not as noticeable on short ones, leading to the mistaken belief that 'some of the audio is fine, some is out of sync'. The Producer and Editor will always blame the sound person regardless of who is actually at fault.

D. The POINT, FINALLY
No matter what you do and what recorder you use, you still need some common point of reference between the audio and video recordings, or all your precious timecode is useless.

If you shot without a slate, you also won't have audio or video synchronization OR a written/verbal reference of scene, shot and take #. This means that 20-40% of your material will be mis-labelled when it's brought into the NLE. You'll end up trying and failing to line up audio from one take with video from a different take on a regular basis, and you will cry. A lot. It's fixable, but slow and frustrating.

If you shot wild sound in the camera, you have a rough point of reference - the audio waveform for the camera track will resemble that of the separate audio track and you can line them upfairly quickly. This will still be subject to error, and tedious, but it will be manageable. NOTE: a similar problem exists when you shoot with two cameras, both recording sound, but don't use a slate on every shot. Matching the two video streams on the timeline will drive you nuts. Different takes of the same shot look very similar and there will be a lot of mistakes. Ooooops.

If you didn't record any sound in the camera, you'll be trying to match up an audio dialog recording with a silent video image of someone speaking. You won't just cry, you'll roll around on the floor pulling out your hair. People will yell at each other and friendships will end. A good audio post person (who may or may not be the picture editor) can straighten this out, but it will take a lot of patience, and you should be willing to bribe them with money and whatever else it takes. You'll be lucky to get through 100 shots per day if you have to do this - it becomes very, VERY repetitive and tedious.

E. THE SOLUTIONS
As ever, all of this could have been avoided if it had been addressed during pre-production and certain rules followed - religiously - during the shooting. Whether it's separate audio and camera or multiple cameras, you MUST use a consistent system to both identify every single shot and wild recording, and to keep audio and video (or second video camera) in sync.

1. Write everything down
Just writing down the time and shot details every time someone pulls the trigger will eliminate many problems.

2. Use a slate
A timecode slate is great but not necessary unless you have the budget and expertise to fully exploit it. A regular slate will save you a vast amount of time. If you can't use a slate (because you left it at home, or you don't want people to see you're shooting a movie...)

3. Announce each take and clap hands
In front of the camera - then you can see the handclap and hear it on the audio recording. This is not really ideal, though. A cellphone that beeps (and does something on screen) each time you hit a button is better. The basic point: use something that makes a visual and audible signal which you can see in a single frame. Use it consistently.

4. Timecode I
Usually people set 'Rec Run' timecode, so that you get continuous TC on the video tape, from 0-60 minutes. Consider using 'Time of Day' instead. Set your A camera and your audio recorder (or B, C, D...cameras) to the same time of day. Then shoot for the rest of the day. Have your editor be very careful to keep the footage from every shoot day in a separate folder/bin. then put it on a timeline using the timecode information you have to create the sequence.

Your multiple timecode sources will not be synchronized properly. Even though you set all devices to the same time of day, they'll be out of sync because it's impossible to hit the 'time set' buttons perfectly accurately on different devices. BUT: this offset will be consistent throughout the day. Meaning you pull all of the day's footage into the NLE, put it all on a timeline, then line up the video and audio (or 2nd video stream) ALL AT ONCE.

Actually - it won't be perfectly consistent - different clocks have jitter and will drift fractionally throughout the day, even clocks on the same make and model of camera. But fixing that is quick. You can do it in a few seconds per clip whenever you notice it (since you'll be on the lookout for this possibility), or you can jump to the end of the timeline with each day's footage on it and check how bad the drift it on your final clip. It';s unlikely to be more than a frame or three. To fix that, just check every 10th clip or so on the timeline, and when you find one that feels 'off', resync that and everything to the right of it on the that day's timeline.

5. Timecode II: clocks

This isn't true timecode, but a workaround involving an external clock. As noted elsewhere, do not be a slave to the timecode generated on your A camera - over-reliance on it can be misleading and cause costly mistakes.

Even a cheap audio recorder such as the Zoom will have a time display - it'll say something like 'Clip 5 - 0:11:43.374' ie, clip #,h:m:s:ms. If you start recording on both devices and then point the camera (when handheld) at the display of the audio recorder, or alternatively hold the audio recorder in front of the camera lens (when on a tripod) on every take, you'll have a few seconds of video telling you exactly what the runtime is on the audio recorder.

If the recorder saves audio as .bwf, this time will be in the file metadata and recognized by most NLEs or audio editing packages. If it records .wav or .aiff, then the time information will be either included in the filename of the audio clip or if not, hour and minute will be on the file's timestamp.

Bring the audio into your NLE first and put it on a timeline. Now you have a timeline with all the audio you recorded in sequence from beginning to end. Exactly how depends on the recorder and how it saves time info per clip and how the clip is named. Now you take your video, and for each video clip look at the footage which displays the audio recorder's clock, and it tells you which clip # to match with, and where in time to match it.

Example: You have a cheap recorder. You start recording audio at 2:17pm on Jan 1. You put it in front of the camera and start shooting and the audio display says 'clip 1, 0:0:3.532...0:0:5.453' (the clock is running from the 1st to the 2nd #s). You move it out of the way and shoot your scene.

You import the audio to your NLE as clip 1. You look at the time on the file and set up your timeline to start at 14:00:00:00 (2pm = 1400 hours). You move the clip 1 to 14:17:00:00. You bring in clip 1 from the camera.

Find the frame of video showing 'clip 1, 0:0,3:532...' You slide the video clip so that that frame is 3.532 seconds in from the beginning of the audio clip. Hit play: you should have sync. Lock the audio and video together. Do this for every clip you shot that day. Save the project often.

When they're all done, you have, say, 73 clips. Save the project again, trim the start and end of each clip to be the same length. Export all the clips to a new folder (or better, to a separate hard drive) called 'sync - day 1'. Close the project. Open a new one, and import those clips. Now, start editing. The import-export stage is to print the newly-established timecode on them, and also for sanity: you get one set of video clips with audio instead of 2 sets of separate video and audio clips, meaning you only have to keep track of half as many files while editing.

If you're shooting with two or more cameras (each of which are recording sound onboard), it's almost the same. Keep a decent-size, decent-quality digital clock on set. Battery powered is better so it doesn't lose the time if you unplug it. At the beginning or end of EVERY take, EVERY camera gets a shot of the clock (IN the take - it doesn't work if you pause the camera before or after shooting the clock). You MUST shoot the clock long enough to see the seconds changing (or the minute, if you got a really cheap clock). Now every clip from every came includes a visual reference to the same external time source.

Import all your video, put it on a timeline, each camera on a separate track - the frames which show the clock tell you where to put it on the timeline. Your timeline will be as long as your shooting day was. You get frame accuracy by lining up the frames where the second (or the minute) changes over with that point in the timeline. Now, all the footage on the different tracks should be in sync and you can cut seamlessly. Add sync markers or whatever you do sync clips in your NLE.

F. FINALLY, DAMN

The above won't solve all your potential a/v sync problems, but it will at least tell you how to approach them. Like many other things, start thinking about this in preproduction. Don't rely on your own preconceptions, or reassurances from your camera person, editor, or sound person. Plan and test. It's a sad fact that a lot of camera and editor and VFX people know a bit about timecode, but not enough to solve problems. Sound people know more, not all of them know all about it. And in a less technical way, camera and picture editing people often don't know much about audio editing.

Audio editing has more in common with VFX compositing than anything else, and there are just as many ways to screw it up. I also think production sound has a lot in common with lighting. The traditional model is to do the visuals first and consider the audio second, and much time (and money) is lost from this approach. Just as it's good to involve an editor in pre-production or think ahead to the editing if you do it yourself, plan your creative and technical sound stuff before you begin shooting rather than afterwards. Personally, I think that editing picture and sound are best done by the same person, though such people are relatively few and far between. 80-90% of post audio problems are best fixed in the NLE rather than rushing to get a pretty picture locked and then tackling the audio issues separately.

There are other issues I've not addressed here - drift, what happens when you have multiple microphones on telephoto shots, reasons when you should break sync and how to do it without being noticed, reasons TV and theater sync are different, and the many many ways of cheating your audio in post (but please don't assume you can 'fix it in post' unless you know specifically how).


In summary, if you have a full-size camera that can record sound on set you're off to a great start, but if not then don't worry - these issues were around before video and were solved for film. And while sync is the most obvious technical issue, it's not the only one - sound is a many-splendored thing, and the more you plan for it the more fun it will be in post.

Eddy Robinson
03-05-2009, 02:16 PM
Why? Is that so bad to have 44kHz such as happens with the 5D MKII?

No. It just sounds a little bit nicer, plus you'll usually be converting to 48khz for your final output anyway, so it's one less thing to go wrong.

mattsand
03-05-2009, 02:32 PM
i just synced up 40 hours of material for a feature, no timecode and no slates, not even voice slating, but with the aid of d90 built in sound for reference. i simply used the timestamp on the files to get the right clip (usually there was one audio clip per video clip so i didn't even have to do that), then set markers at the wonderful sound of my own voice yelling "action" on both tracks, then aligned them. it took an entire day, but not more than an entire day, which isn't bad.

/matt

Eddy Robinson
03-05-2009, 02:35 PM
i dont know, but in this video i can not see any rolling shutter issues.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akSvf1uvDXs

any full res clips already available?

I just noticed in the video clip that you can also switch it between AVCHD and Motion JPEG. Could be a plus.

PappasArts
03-05-2009, 03:15 PM
Sample 720P from GH1..... It's like all trade show vids though

http://www.photographybay.com/2009/03/05/panasonic-lumix-gh1-sample-video/

http://ericreagan.smugmug.com/photos/484888771_NMEJm-1280D.mp4


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Park Edwards
03-05-2009, 03:48 PM
I just noticed in the video clip that you can also switch it between AVCHD and Motion JPEG. Could be a plus.

yeah, i noticed that too. that'd be sweet. i'd like to stick with mjpeg.

Park Edwards
03-05-2009, 11:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beHVnyvF0fI

PappasArts
03-06-2009, 12:18 AM
Good video piece on the camera you found.

Notice how they emphasized full manual control in video mode, and that it was a bridge between consumer and pro video....

Jeez, what was Canon thinking; or not thinking when it came to not having 24fps, manual control and more on the 5D. Funny is Panasonic did this with the DVX100. Before that there was this lack of 24fps and good robust small form pro camera and then they knocked out a great camera the DVX100. I'm seeing a similar parallel here too!

June time frame release as well.....


Michael Pappas
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Park Edwards
03-06-2009, 01:00 AM
Yeah, I'm pretty pumped about this camera. Panny really might have a winner with this.

I don't think it's significant, but with Canons MkII you get FF sensor. Better light, less noise and so on. So I guess there are trade offs. But the GH1 looks like a clear winner especially if the rumor is that it's going to be under $1500.00.

mattsand
03-06-2009, 02:18 AM
plus that $2,000 olympus f/2.0 zoom. drool. :-)

/matt

Caesar
03-06-2009, 04:59 AM
Nice read and workaround.


5. Timecode II: clocks

This isn't true timecode, but a workaround involving an external clock. As noted elsewhere, do not be a slave to the timecode generated on your A camera - over-reliance on it can be misleading and cause costly mistakes.

Even a cheap audio recorder such as the Zoom will have a time display - it'll say something like 'Clip 5 - 0:11:43.374' ie, clip #,h:m:s:ms. If you start recording on both devices and then point the camera (when handheld) at the display of the audio recorder, or alternatively hold the audio recorder in front of the camera lens (when on a tripod) on every take, you'll have a few seconds of video telling you exactly what the runtime is on the audio recorder.

If the recorder saves audio as .bwf, this time will be in the file metadata and recognized by most NLEs or audio editing packages. If it records .wav or .aiff, then the time information will be either included in the filename of the audio clip or if not, hour and minute will be on the file's timestamp.

Bring the audio into your NLE first and put it on a timeline. Now you have a timeline with all the audio you recorded in sequence from beginning to end. Exactly how depends on the recorder and how it saves time info per clip and how the clip is named. Now you take your video, and for each video clip look at the footage which displays the audio recorder's clock, and it tells you which clip # to match with, and where in time to match it.

Example: You have a cheap recorder. You start recording audio at 2:17pm on Jan 1. You put it in front of the camera and start shooting and the audio display says 'clip 1, 0:0:3.532...0:0:5.453' (the clock is running from the 1st to the 2nd #s). You move it out of the way and shoot your scene.

You import the audio to your NLE as clip 1. You look at the time on the file and set up your timeline to start at 14:00:00:00 (2pm = 1400 hours). You move the clip 1 to 14:17:00:00. You bring in clip 1 from the camera.

Find the frame of video showing 'clip 1, 0:0,3:532...' You slide the video clip so that that frame is 3.532 seconds in from the beginning of the audio clip. Hit play: you should have sync. Lock the audio and video together. Do this for every clip you shot that day. Save the project often.

When they're all done, you have, say, 73 clips. Save the project again, trim the start and end of each clip to be the same length. Export all the clips to a new folder (or better, to a separate hard drive) called 'sync - day 1'. Close the project. Open a new one, and import those clips. Now, start editing. The import-export stage is to print the newly-established timecode on them, and also for sanity: you get one set of video clips with audio instead of 2 sets of separate video and audio clips, meaning you only have to keep track of half as many files while editing.

If you're shooting with two or more cameras (each of which are recording sound onboard), it's almost the same. Keep a decent-size, decent-quality digital clock on set. Battery powered is better so it doesn't lose the time if you unplug it. At the beginning or end of EVERY take, EVERY camera gets a shot of the clock (IN the take - it doesn't work if you pause the camera before or after shooting the clock). You MUST shoot the clock long enough to see the seconds changing (or the minute, if you got a really cheap clock). Now every clip from every came includes a visual reference to the same external time source.

Import all your video, put it on a timeline, each camera on a separate track - the frames which show the clock tell you where to put it on the timeline. Your timeline will be as long as your shooting day was. You get frame accuracy by lining up the frames where the second (or the minute) changes over with that point in the timeline. Now, all the footage on the different tracks should be in sync and you can cut seamlessly. Add sync markers or whatever you do sync clips in your NLE.

There are other issues I've not addressed here - drift

Using your workaround, what do you have to say about it?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/138476-how-about-good-quality-audio-6.html

Uwe Lansing
03-06-2009, 05:08 AM
plus that $2,000 olympus f/2.0 zoom. drool. :-)

/matt

Haha..., how cheap it is. I think, the most important downsides of this cam are the lack of manual control the Iso values in combination with a kit lens and f4.0. Besides I donīt like this small teeny weeny body. Maybe itīs not very handy...

mattsand
03-06-2009, 06:38 AM
who said you can't control the iso? the kit lens is bullshit, i agree, and since it probably comes with all cameras there's no market for it either.

/matt

Uwe Lansing
03-06-2009, 06:51 AM
who said you can't control the iso? ...

In the specs and the YT-Clip you only find statements referred to manual control over shutter speed and aperture - no iso. You know anything more? And yes, you can of course use glasses of other brands with an adapter, but then there will be no AF-abilities...

Jay Birch
03-06-2009, 07:09 AM
Other than a few applications (sports, wildlife, point and shoot etc) I don't see the need for auto focus myself.

Uwe Lansing
03-06-2009, 07:18 AM
For you and the most guys here, maybe. But the main target group for this little thing are amateurish user. For them the absence of AF is an absolutely no go...

Jay Birch
03-06-2009, 07:24 AM
but the amateur will be happy with the stock lens, which has AF. The pros will be looking to add expensive glass (non AF).

All i'm saying is it is not a big loss for most of us to grab better glass, but lose AF.

Uwe Lansing
03-06-2009, 07:35 AM
but the amateur will be happy with the stock lens, which has AF.....

Are you sure? Today the amateurs want good lowlight capabilities too. And with fstop of 4.0 iso gonna rise a lot. Iīm afraid that they will be disappointed by this cam...

grifter09
03-06-2009, 08:08 AM
Im doing a lot of steadicam work these days.
If i could get a wide aperture, 30mm(ish) prime to work in AF reasonably well id be very happy. Add in working face recognition and then what a tool this would become. I know I'm hoping for too much though.

Park Edwards
03-06-2009, 09:29 AM
lack of manual controls? what camera on the market has the ability to adjust ISO??? it has control over shutter and aperture. for a narrative filmmaker and doc work, this is gonna be a tight cam to work with. and i'm willing to bet a dollar you can either trick the iso or something can be adjusted just like the d90 and mkII. and think about it. that lens f4 is almost equivalent to all the cameras out there now with their small sensors and adapters put on the front. and that is just one of many lens that will most likely hit the market. so you can bet they'll have faster lens with AF. but what do i care, i never use AF for anything unless i'm taking a picture.

Uwe Lansing
03-06-2009, 09:59 AM
... and i'm willing to bet a dollar you can either trick the iso or something can be adjusted just like the d90 and mkII...

Youīll win - no doubt about it. But why the heck they didnīt install manual control over iso? Then one do not need all the tricks. And an ordinary consumer donīt like all these complex tricks...

Park Edwards
03-06-2009, 10:35 AM
not sure, i really think it's probably more trouble than we all think to control iso in movie mode. but, truth be told, much much rather have control over shutter than iso. it's be wonderful to have both, but if you gotta drop one, let it be the iso.

but you said ordinary consumer. the ordinary consumer probably doesn't even know what iso and shutter are.

Uwe Lansing
03-06-2009, 10:48 AM
...
but you said ordinary consumer. the ordinary consumer probably doesn't even know what iso and shutter are.

Haha... maybe, but almost all have two eyes and will notice a lot of noisy footage in lowlight situations and donīt know why that happens. Anyway, lets wait + see.
Here is an interesting article which announces two new glasses with fstop 1.7 + 2.8 before the end of this year.
http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/21656/panasonic-lumix-gh1-review/

Eddy Robinson
03-06-2009, 11:06 AM
Nice read and workaround.
Using your workaround, what do you have to say about it?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/canon-eos-5d-mk-ii-hd/138476-how-about-good-quality-audio-6.html

An external converter like Streamclip will do fine. If you want to do the 30->29.97 conversion in the NLE, it's best do do all the conversion before you start editing. Use some software that can do batch processing like adobe audition and shrink or pitch up the clips by 0.1% - such a small pitch change won't change the quality of the audio noticeably.

One of Pro Tools' selling points is that it handles this by manipulating the sample rate of the DSP hardware, but the reason that matters is that for film you're generally planning to output both for TV and theater - so you record audio at 30fps because it's relatively easy to resolve that to both 29.97 and 24.

Happily, all this will cease to matter in the next few years as TV goes digital. Frame rates like 59.94 and 23.976 are just there for backwards compatibility.

Eddy Robinson
03-06-2009, 11:59 AM
In the specs and the YT-Clip you only find statements referred to manual control over shutter speed and aperture - no iso. You know anything more? And yes, you can of cause use glasses of other brands with an adapter, but then there will be no AF-abilities...

My impression (which is partly a guess) is that you can have it adjust automatically or lock it to a specific value, but not adjust it during shooting (eg like the gain on the DVX or HVX. Is this really so bad? After all, manual exposure adjustments in the middle of a shot don't look that great either. I'd rather lock it and be able to adjust aperture.


Other than a few applications (sports, wildlife, point and shoot etc) I don't see the need for auto focus myself.

Well, on a camera this size having an AC pulling focus might not be all that practical. If this feature works as well as suggested by Panasonic, it would be very useful for dolly shots and walking handheld where keeping the keeping focus can be tricky; it won't be quite so critical if your talent doesn't hit his/her mark correctly. That would be a big time saver right there.

I estimate that in the real world less than 20% of focus pulls are creative choices, and the other 80% are technical necessities to just keep the picture sharp. A traveling shot as above is an obvious example, or consider a closeup wher the actor maybe leans in for emphasis and you want to make sure the focus stays on the eyes rather than the ears.

On thing I don't see on the GH1 that would be useful is a focus range. Suppose I'm looking down the neck of a guitar and want to focus on the left hand, then the right hand. The ideal situation is a great AC fulling focus while looking at a big monitor but that's not always an option. Creative manual focusing over short distances might be difficult on this camera...perhaps that's why Panasonic opted to go with a slower kit lens, - offering shallow enough DoF to provide some bokeh but not enough that the autofocus gets twitchy?

Uwe Lansing
03-06-2009, 12:25 PM
My impression (which is partly a guess) is that you can have it adjust automatically or lock it to a specific value...

If so, it would be great...

mico
03-06-2009, 12:59 PM
My impression (which is partly a guess) is that you can have it adjust automatically or lock it to a specific value, but not adjust it during shooting (eg like the gain on the DVX or HVX. Is this really so bad? After all, manual exposure adjustments in the middle of a shot don't look that great either. I'd rather lock it and be able to adjust aperture.



Well, on a camera this size having an AC pulling focus might not be all that practical. If this feature works as well as suggested by Panasonic, it would be very useful for dolly shots and walking handheld where keeping the keeping focus can be tricky; it won't be quite so critical if your talent doesn't hit his/her mark correctly. That would be a big time saver right there.

I estimate that in the real world less than 20% of focus pulls are creative choices, and the other 80% are technical necessities to just keep the picture sharp. A traveling shot as above is an obvious example, or consider a closeup wher the actor maybe leans in for emphasis and you want to make sure the focus stays on the eyes rather than the ears.

On thing I don't see on the GH1 that would be useful is a focus range. Suppose I'm looking down the neck of a guitar and want to focus on the left hand, then the right hand. The ideal situation is a great AC fulling focus while looking at a big monitor but that's not always an option. Creative manual focusing over short distances might be difficult on this camera...perhaps that's why Panasonic opted to go with a slower kit lens, - offering shallow enough DoF to provide some bokeh but not enough that the autofocus gets twitchy?

Excellent post. Pulling focus will be a necessity and what that means is that the cam will have to be fully kitted out to make that happen as well as having focus pullers and the cost of this cam just went up considerably.

I seriously doubt the auto focus of this cam will be the autofucus that will eliminate the need of a focus puller because only a human can decide what you want or don't want in focus.

mattsand
03-06-2009, 02:15 PM
you can of cause use glasses of other brands with an adapter, but then there will be no AF-abilities...

Any four thirds or micro four thirds lens should have af on this body, like the olympus i mentioned, which is why i mentioned it. Not that i've ever used af for movies or ever will, but for the record. If they don't mention manual iso control it's a fact that it doesn't exist? Sorry but you lost of there. /m

mattsand
03-06-2009, 02:32 PM
All i'm saying is it is not a big loss for most of us to grab better glass, but lose AF.

i'm still not sure what you guys mean. there are plenty of glass for the four thirds or micro four thirds format. sure they don't have the "video optimized" af that's smooth and quiet, but it's still af. other than that i agree with the previous poster that only humans can decide what's supposed to be in focus, which is why af rarely works for narrative stuff anyway. i've worked on three features, two of them we used cameras that had af, and we never used it once.

/matt

mattsand
03-06-2009, 02:40 PM
I estimate that in the real world less than 20% of focus pulls are creative choices, and the other 80% are technical necessities to just keep the picture sharp
i'm not sure what you mean by creative choices. *especially* on dolly and handheld shots it's often very hard to determine what's supposed to be in focus. "just" keeping the picture sharp works on auto for static shots with the subject in the middle, rarely otherwise. auto focus is nice, but the lack of good manual focus is a much bigger concern with low end cameras and their less than great manual focusing rings. i prefer great manual control with a fast and snappy auto mode for when you're lost or need a starting point fast.

/matt

grifter09
03-06-2009, 03:43 PM
i prefer great manual control with a fast and snappy auto mode for when you're lost or need a starting point fast.

/matt

Agreed. Auto focus just doesn't look good full stop anyway. Even on the cameras that are good at it it still hunts and shimmers on occasion sometimes totally randomly as to when. Especially if there is movement out of focus in the shot like a candle or something.
No camera smoothly keeps a subject in focus all the way (automatically) when its moving in or away from the camera, or likewise when the camera is tracking forward or back. It happens in intervals, choosing points.In the better cameras there are many intervals but it still would look twitchy. If AF is not acceptable for TV then its definately not acceptable for film. Push auto in manual mode can be handy for sure.
But on a steadicam, when you just cant touch the camera at all auto can be just the thing.

Park Edwards
03-06-2009, 04:50 PM
i'm by no means a pro here, but auto is for most amateurs. why do you think professional drivers still use manual.

Eddy Robinson
03-06-2009, 05:17 PM
i'm not sure what you mean by creative choices. *especially* on dolly and handheld shots it's often very hard to determine what's supposed to be in focus.


Perhaps I didn't make it clear (this goes for mico too) that my comments are based on Panasonics claims - still to e verified and quantified - for the AF tracking ability on the GH1. Automatic tracking is explicitly limited to still photos, but selection of the AF point in the frame (prior to shooting) seems universally available.

My point is that to some extent the camera lets you decide what is meant to be in focus before the shot, rather than forming its own opinion. To the degree that this is functional in movie mode, it could make the autofocus quite useful - particularly in combination with the user-definable guidelines (scroll up a bit from the link below).

I'm looking at this section of the website: http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/gh1/liveview.html#no06

Eddy Robinson
03-06-2009, 05:36 PM
i'm by no means a pro here, but auto is for most amateurs. why do you think professional drivers still use manual.

Not in formula 1, though :huh:

I get (and agree with) the point you're making, but I've been startled by the recent advances on this an other cameras with technologies like face recognition and AF tracking - these are only offered in still photography mode on the GH1, but their availability on moving pictures is surely only a matter of time and (ever-improving) processing power.

Don't get me wrong - my interest in this camera stems from the the combination of image quality, price, and good manual control. It's just that Panasonic has so far done pretty well in making their automatic features useful rather than gimmicky. 'DVX Film look', anyone?

Park Edwards
03-06-2009, 06:02 PM
i hope this could be the new dvx

squig
03-06-2009, 06:31 PM
I thought the D90 was the new DVX.......it is in terms of filmmakers picking it up and actually shooting features

John Caballero
03-06-2009, 07:00 PM
Auto focus is a great option. The original DVX 100 did not have it but later versions did. I've used it countless times in my HVX 200 and it has worked very well. The more options you get the better. Then it is up to the operator to use them or not.


I thought the D90 was the new DVX

Not at all. The D90 is simply an introduction to the future. It is ok for home movies and not much else. Codec, compression, "jello"... Forget about it.

bronxjragon
03-06-2009, 07:03 PM
I thought the D90 was the new DVX.......it is in terms of filmmakers picking it up and actually shooting features

really? can you link me to any features that actually exist shot with the d90? i'd be interested in seeing it as i'm trying to cook some stuff up myself

squig
03-06-2009, 07:19 PM
I did say "shooting" features

mattsand
03-07-2009, 01:07 AM
really? can you link me to any features that actually exist shot with the d90?
the camera was released half a year ago, making that pretty much impossible. i do have a link for my upcoming one though. we're editing and it should be finished in september.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1388437/

/matt

Uwe Lansing
03-07-2009, 02:46 AM
Any four thirds or micro four thirds lens should have af on this body, like the olympus i mentioned, which is why i mentioned it. Not that i've ever used af for movies or ever will, but for the record. If they don't mention manual iso control it's a fact that it doesn't exist? Sorry but you lost of there. /m


Important features should be highlighted - that are actually the rules of advertising. Maybe Pana thought that itīs not worth mentioning - but I suppose they didnīt. But in june we all will know it at the latest.

Regarding the lenses: The AF of Canon + Nikon will not work. And, to be honest, I donīt really know whether the AF of MFT-Glasses in general are compatible with the new GH1 or not. But if yes, they are surely not optimized for the video mode as you mentioned by yourself. If one hear allways peculiar noises working with AF they are rather useless.


Auto focus is a great option. The original DVX 100 did not have it but later versions did. I've used it countless times in my HVX 200 and it has worked very well. The more options you get the better. Then it is up to the operator to use them or not.



Exactly - thatīs right. Not only amateurs like the AF-feature. That doesnīt mean, that you will use it in every situation. But for some shots it could be a real benefit...

mattsand
03-07-2009, 03:32 AM
Important features should be highlighted
i've never seen a camera advertised as having manual control over iso and still many of them have it. i'm 100% sure this one has it in still mode, and they don't advertise that either, right?

Regarding the lenses: The AF of Canon + Nikon will not work
obviously because they don't make lenses for this mount. sigma, olympus, panasonic and leica do, more might follow.

/matt

Uwe Lansing
03-07-2009, 03:47 AM
...i'm 100% sure this one has it in still mode, and they don't advertise that either, right?


In still mode it goes without saying - a naturalness. In movie mode not. Lets wait - im curious...

mattsand
03-07-2009, 05:13 AM
In still mode it goes without saying - a naturalness. In movie mode not.
why not? because the d90 doesn't have it? most video cameras do and panasonic ones in particular. it's not something that's usually specified either way as far as i've seen. sure, let's wait and see but it sounded as if it was confirmed, which is why i asked.

/matt

Uwe Lansing
03-07-2009, 06:07 AM
...but it sounded as if it was confirmed..

So, I bet 5 Euro that itīs not working in video mode haha... If I lose I bring it to you personally - are only about 800 kilometer. Hamburg and Stockholm are voted for the greenest towns in Europe, so Iīll feel fine there:
http://february.unricmagazine.org/at-the-eu/81-at-the-eu/219-stockholm-and-hamburg-named-first-green-capitals.html

Just a joke ;-)

mattsand
03-07-2009, 08:14 AM
you're on. i'd love to come down with the money if i lose. hamburg is one of my favorite cities in europe. buy a case of astra and warm up that pirate flag for me. ;-)

/matt

Caesar
03-07-2009, 09:36 AM
An external converter like Streamclip will do fine. If you want to do the 30->29.97 conversion in the NLE, it's best do do all the conversion before you start editing. Use some software that can do batch processing like adobe audition and shrink or pitch up the clips by 0.1% - such a small pitch change won't change the quality of the audio noticeably.

One of Pro Tools' selling points is that it handles this by manipulating the sample rate of the DSP hardware, but the reason that matters is that for film you're generally planning to output both for TV and theater - so you record audio at 30fps because it's relatively easy to resolve that to both 29.97 and 24.

Happily, all this will cease to matter in the next few years as TV goes digital. Frame rates like 59.94 and 23.976 are just there for backwards compatibility.Actually, I meant this post:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1010922-post77.html

What do you say about it including that your workaround?

Eddy Robinson
03-07-2009, 02:19 PM
Actually, I meant this post:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/1010922-post77.html

Not a big issue. Timecode drifts over many hours, but a TC clock usually runs around 30 fps, compared to a sample rate clock running at 1600+ times that rate (eg 48 KHz). The TC drift is an artifact of the method used to synthesize the timing square wave due to cumulative errors in the DSP algorithm. On set with a recorder and TC slate I usually jam-sync every 2 or 3 hours, but more out of good practise than any real necessity.

So if you use the time-of-day method I described above (eg for 2 cameras), you could always double check the offset for each hour of tape, or battery change, or on each new scene, or just for every few hours of footage if you were recording everything on hard drives. As I said, if you put all of a days' footage on the timeline and line stuff up correctly at the start, you can then jump to the end of the sequence and see what degree of drift there is between the two cameras. This assumes, of course, than your camera has an internal battery to correctly maintain time of day etc even when the main battery is switched out.

Kholi
03-07-2009, 09:07 PM
Following this in the other thread... can't wait to see some raw footage from this camera. Gonna be the first up on the chopping block to tear into it barring some decent resolving power showing up in 720P and 1080I/24 modes.

squig
03-07-2009, 10:26 PM
I can see a GH1 D90 shootout coming......can't wait

Matt have you tweaked that custom curve since you uploaded it? I'm about to give it a try

Park Edwards
03-08-2009, 12:36 AM
no jello!, no scrolling lines. adjustable shutter speed. it's a dream come true. Nikon d90 for sale if anyone is interested.

http://vms.slashgear.tv/video/183.mp4

Martin Koch
03-08-2009, 01:46 AM
http://www.dvxuser6.com/uploaded/41816/1236505309.jpg

GH1 resolving power? Beautiful rendering of out of focus areas? Built in Photoshop surface blur filter? Found at 1:22.

If the final GH1 produces anything like this better keep your D90!

Edit: At 0:44 you can see they used the lowest possible quality setting (9Mbps 720p @ 60fps = about 4.5 Mbps @ 30fps) so I better shut up before I see samples shot by a pro using a tripod and the highest possible quality setting.

dcloud
03-08-2009, 03:29 AM
i have no complains with video. although its still needs better performance. the lowlight seems to be at a good level performance.

that blur comment is just petty. compared to how bad d90's rolling shutter is and no manual controls.

mattsand
03-08-2009, 03:45 AM
ithat blur comment is just petty. compared to
yeah, but who's comparing? all cameras discussed on this board are better than my hitachi vhs camera from 1981 (not that i don't love the look but you know what i mean).

/matt

cane
03-08-2009, 03:56 AM
OK, Nice
But all i want to know is : Can I make nice DOF with this camera in combination with the stock lens.
That's most interesting point with the changeability option of the lens.
Most of us are glad with the HVX and the HPX camera's only the DOF problem get us headattack's.
A good 35mm adapter is to expensive and a huge setup. Is this the right with the solutions beside my HVX ??

mattsand
03-08-2009, 04:19 AM
But all i want to know is : Can I make nice DOF with this camera in combination with the stock lens.
do you have a d90? the sensor is only a little bit bigger so put on a lens of choice, stop down to f/4, crop a few percent on each side and see for yourself. it's not gonna look like f/1.4 on a full frame camera but who wants that anyway? except for wide angle work i guess, at 14mm you'll probably have everything in focus all the time.

/matt

cane
03-08-2009, 04:31 AM
No i don't have the d90 YET I was looking for a good lens combination and research here and there for extra information.
I give me 2 mounts time to save the money together and now this thread comes around.

Uwe Lansing
03-08-2009, 05:59 AM
no jello!...

Obviously, there is some, but not as much as the D90. Stu Maschwitz shows it:
http://www.vimeo.com/3523210

dcloud
03-08-2009, 07:25 AM
yeah, but who's comparing? all cameras discussed on this board are better than my hitachi vhs camera from 1981 (not that i don't love the look but you know what i mean).

/mattthe post i replied to :) he did retract it based on crappy compression.
i can only speculate, d90 would still kick gh1's ass in terms of picture quality in stills.

jamesmallonuk
03-08-2009, 08:55 AM
Sorry if this has been mentioned already on this thread, hard to know as this thread is getting pretty long! maybe sooner rather than later a new category is needed for the camera.

My question is I am wondering if Panasonic will load all these video abilities onto their future standard DSLR's> I personally would prefer these functions on a more pro camera and full size lens.

DavidNJ
03-08-2009, 09:18 AM
The GH-1 will beat the D90 because the D90 records in MPEG2 at a slow bitrate. My guess is a $600 Canon SX1 would give the D90 a run for its money.

kyle.presley
03-08-2009, 10:18 AM
The D90 records to motion jpeg, not mpeg2. Why do you keep repeating this false information?

allantab
03-08-2009, 10:38 AM
Obviously, there is some, but not as much as the D90. Stu Maschwitz shows it:
http://www.vimeo.com/3523210

Here is Stu's blog post on Prolost (analyzing skew from footage from SlashGear)


Prolost - GH1 Live MOS Skew (http://prolost.blogspot.com/2009/03/gh1-live-mos-skew.html)

SlashGear - GH1 Hands On Blog Post (http://www.slashgear.com/panasonic-micro-43-gh1-and-14-140mm-video-feature-hands-on-%E2%80%93-af-and-manual-mode-tests-0736780/)

SlashGear 720p mp4 hands on zoom focus footage/adjusting shutter speed/aperture (http://vms.slashgear.tv/video/183.mp4)

Park Edwards
03-08-2009, 11:14 AM
i'll stick to my original analysis...no jello. skew yes. maybe you have to own a d90 to understand what i'm talking about. i can live with the so called "jello" from both camera's, but much rather have a reduced amount like that of the gh1.

Kholi
03-08-2009, 11:56 AM
Pretty promising, so far. The lack of detail/image clarity disturbs me. And the banding. It's a D90 and 5D killer based on manual controls alone AND 24p. A D90 Killer based on Skew-to-Skew aesthetic and the ability to use just about any glass you'd like.

Still, there's a long way to go before anyone can call it solid. I'm kinda with car3o and Liza in the other thread: my D90 will be up for sale around June if this pans out well; pun intended.

mattsand
03-08-2009, 01:41 PM
i'll stick to my original analysis...no jello. skew yes
as i believe i've mentioned before you can't have one without the other. it's not something you can analyze, it's just the way it is, jello is a *direct* and *unavoidable* byproduct of skew. what you're saying is just that there's so little skew that the jello isn't so bad, which i totally buy and agree with, but i still think it's wiser to look at things from a stringent perspective. there's already way too many rumors and false pieces of information out there about these cameras.

/matt

mattsand
03-08-2009, 01:46 PM
guys, the mp4 i believe you're referring to is compressed at 1580 kbps, less than *one tenth* the original bitrate, it's *not* a raw file. or am i missing something?

/matt

Park Edwards
03-08-2009, 02:39 PM
let me put it to you this way. you can pick at it down to the last pixel and find "jello" that correlates to "skew" but when I say there isn't any jello means that there isn't enough that i care to complain about. i'm not posting facts, just what I see what I think is and isn't. And i don't care if someone says differently.

LizaWitz
03-08-2009, 03:38 PM
i'll stick to my original analysis...no jello. skew yes. maybe you have to own a d90 to understand what i'm talking about. i can live with the so called "jello" from both camera's, but much rather have a reduced amount like that of the gh1.

Frankly, it looks to me that in order to get any skew at all you have to be moving so fast that you'd be getting 24fps ugliness anyway. I look forward to seeing some real examples at 720/60p and 1080/24p.

I'm pretty impressed by the image quality. One thing is that the colors seemed not overly saturated. A tradeshow floor is generally full of really bright colors, and I saw on the early part of the video that the camera is in regular film mode--- so we could go even more desaturated if we wanted.

I just think June is too long to wait. I mean, what am I supposed to do in the interim?

Outkasted
03-08-2009, 04:19 PM
So I can use my nikon Lens on this camera ? I've got that 18-200 with the VR and all that stuff will work, right ? I'm thinking I just might keep my d90 until Nikon drops something better. This camera does sound better than the D90 in some ways. If it was cheaper than the D90, then maybe.

Technology is just gonna keep advancing and I can't buy every single new piece of gear that comes out. I'm too poor for that. I just gotta make due with what I have.

squig
03-08-2009, 04:26 PM
It's unlikely that Nikon doesn't get it's act together by June by way of a firmware update or new improved model. Panasonic will probably bring out some kind of pro model eventually like a red one.....but nothing is stopping Nikon bringing out something similar in the near future. And who knows what Canon will do next.

Imagine full frame, 1080p, 100mbps or raw 24p, full manual control, for the price of a 5D.......we have the technology we can rebuild him.

mattsand
03-08-2009, 04:47 PM
when I say there isn't any jello means that there isn't enough that i care to complain about
i know what you mean, i'm just wondering why you're not saying it. are you just stubborn or what? feeling the need to protect your first amendment rights? this is a board and we're having a discussion. it's not just about you and what you happen to care to complain about. if i hadn't started this boring debate i'm sure ten kids would be telling their friends right now about how sure, the panny has skew but no jello, as if they were separate entities. actually i'm sure they are anyway, but i've made it my mission in life to try and stop such bs.

/matt

Ian-T
03-08-2009, 04:50 PM
Be Nice Mattias!!!!

mattsand
03-08-2009, 05:02 PM
yeah sorry, i'm just getting tired of not being listened to. i post the same thing over and over again, nobody disputes what i'm saying and all i'm getting is "yeah but i don't give a damn". you'd be tired too.

/matt

mattsand
03-08-2009, 05:04 PM
Uncalled for rant deleted. I've no problem being an asshole but i respect the rules of this board. :-)

LizaWitz
03-08-2009, 05:06 PM
So I can use my nikon Lens on this camera ? I've got that 18-200 with the VR and all that stuff will work, right ?

Yes, then No. You can use the nikon lenses with an adapter, but in manual focus mode. I am pretty sure all the lens manufacturers put authentication in their lens CPUS so that they will only work on bodies they make. So, no VR or autofocus.

The 18-200 VR is only a little faster than the 14-140 that comes with the camera, so you'd probably be better off selling it and using the kit lens, if you decided to get a GH1.

But its true, technology marches forward. I'm not optimistic that other DSLRS will be competitive with the GH1 for a couple reasons, though:
1. They don't want to change their lenses.
2. They don't seem to care about video very much.
3. Avoiding the rolling shutter effect requires a new sensor design. Video takes a lot of CPU horsepower to compress. Both of those add cost.
4. Their primary customers are not demanding video.

So, the competition for Panasonic is likely to come from Samsung and their NX platform, and we don't know whether the camera they want to ship by the end of the year will have a good video implementation or not....

But one can say, for sure, that in about 16 months, there will be a better camera than the GH1-- either the next rev from Panasonic or another competitor.

My policy for technology purposes is to buy no more often than every 2 years.

taubkin
03-08-2009, 05:07 PM
I think you're too attached of what you're saying to the point the discussion is getting pointless. So what, he likes saying the way he did better. We should spend this ammount of time learning more about the cameras than making pointless arguments. We understand what you said, and it's noted. No need to feel you're not being listened to. And, honestly, so what if you aren't.

Don't take the post the wrong way, though.

kyle.presley
03-08-2009, 05:09 PM
There's a threshold where skew becomes unacceptable, in psychological terms, its called the JND (just noticeable difference). We all know skew and "jello" are the same thing, but more correctly jello is just a painfully slow read/reset time on the sensor, which results in not just a singular skew, but multiple skew gradients, resulting in the "jello" image, which I think is a very accurate description of what's going on. So what if people say the camera has skew, not jello? EVERY camera, including film cameras, that DO NOT have a global shutter have some degree of skew.In fact, to get "the film look," one has to agree that some degree of skew is desirable. "jello" however, is never desirable, and should probably be thought of as a separate "entity" because to go from a single skew gradient to a multiple skew gradient, the read/reset time has to be much slower. Let's call it jello.

LizaWitz
03-08-2009, 05:12 PM
yeah sorry, i'm just getting tired of not being listened to.

The effect is more pronounced depending on the direction the camera is moving, right? Quick camera movement is generally horizontal, while vertical movement is generally much diminished in most shots. The GH1 sensor is clearly much better at dealing with this issue than previous sensors, and combined with the lesser movement of cameras vertically, this increased performance may effectively eliminate the effect for practical shooting purposes.

However, if you need to do a vertical whip pan you might be able to produce the effect enough for it to be a problem.

I think this is consistent with what both of you are saying, and thus neither of you are giving BS.

taubkin
03-08-2009, 05:21 PM
Skew is a rolling shutter artifact when you pan and vertical lines on the picture bend. Jello, is when you shake a camera and the rolling shutter artifact (the same in skew, but in a different movement pattern) makes you want to puke. C'mon, there isn't any official definition of "jello-cam" in the ASC manual. The important part of this discussion is: Some cameras have more acceptable skew that others, for instance, the Mk II is much better in this regard than the D90 (probably because of the framerate too), and I can handhold a Mk II (with difficulty), but I can't operate the D90 handheld. That's useful information, on my book. Would love to know more about the GH-1 too.

Park Edwards
03-08-2009, 07:28 PM
annnnnnd that's done and over with. now back to being excited for the GH1.

Ian-T
03-08-2009, 07:57 PM
annnnnnd that's done and over with. now back to being excited for the GH1.
.....that sure is a nice cam they got there don't you think? :beer:

John Caballero
03-08-2009, 08:16 PM
So far is looking good. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Park Edwards
03-08-2009, 08:17 PM
ohh absolutely

Kholi
03-08-2009, 08:49 PM
Kay, while you guys rant and rave about Jello-- Dare I post a RED Clip @ 135mm showing skew? Dare I show it @ 120FPS as well? LOL -- I'm gonna rant and rave about...

The High-Res Flip Out LCD. MMMMMMM My gahd. Look, I know it's TOTALLY consumer oriented, it's gadgetfied and semi-cheesey... but when I go to shoot low mode and have to lay my freaking face on the ground just to see the LCD?

Nah, this is bad-ass. And it's not like it hasn't existed before, but combining it with DSLR ViDEO (Liza termed it EVIL in another thread) is really cool. Nifty. neat. When you jump to shoot something it's practical(ly) awesome.

It's one of the many features I'm looking forward to salivating over.

Park Edwards
03-08-2009, 08:51 PM
My birthday's in June. This'll be a present for myself.

Isaac_Brody
03-08-2009, 09:01 PM
I really hope they find a professional or two to shoot something with this before they release it. I agree with Liza that the Vincent Laforet footage was a great move by Canon.

Kholi
03-08-2009, 09:23 PM
I hope they get one into someone's hands that's in contact with a large community like this. Someone who's worked with the HVX/HPX series cameras, RED, D90 etc and can really give us thoughts on how it compares.

And that person also produces something nice. Doesn't have to be helicopter shots, I'd take a very short narrative piece or a tastefully done action sequence.

Kholi
03-08-2009, 09:58 PM
And while I'm still thinkin' about this, I am a D90 owner and I've gone through the paces with it. All things considered, when I output a RAW d90 file (without Mattias' correction applied) on my 46" 1080 Samsung LCD... It doesn't look HORRID. you know? It's like "Hey, i could use this for a Music Video" kind of decent, even with the stairstepping present.

At 10+ Feet away, the stairstepping isn't noticable for one thing, and it looks pretty nice until skew rears it's ugly head.

So, take the AVC_HD at a low compression rate, 1080/24P... DavidNJ states that this is probably already beating out the D90 by a longshot and that's probably a nice area to be in-- between 5D and D90-- for everything.

So, it honestly doesn't really have to be AS GOOD AS the 5D's image considering price. What it may lack there it probably makes up for and beyond with feature sets and affordability: manual controls come to mind.

Just thinking out loud.

Park Edwards
03-08-2009, 10:48 PM
i'm actually cool with the d90 quality. but what bugs me is the possibility it will overheat, the bitrate could be better and no control over shutter. that's it. otherwise d90 has made me. i just think the gh1 will be a lot easier to work with.

Uwe Lansing
03-08-2009, 11:37 PM
Until june itīs a long time. Now a lot of guys is willing to throw up their D90s for sale and wanna buy a GH1. But in a few weeks or month Nikon will pronounce their new toys - lets it call D400, D800, D5000 or whatever. Iīm pretty sure that this will change the purchase intentions a lot - in any event my.....

Park Edwards
03-08-2009, 11:39 PM
if the GH1 is going to retail for $1500 and under, just rumor, nikon won't match it. just look at their d3x how it debuted at $8k for almost the same exact specs as the canon 5d minus video.

Uwe Lansing
03-08-2009, 11:50 PM
The price rumors for the D400 are around 2000,- bucks, for the D5000 about 600,- and for a D800 maybe 3000-4000,-. Itīll depend on the features they will offer to make a decision. But im kinda sure it will be good products - thatīs only my humble opinion... ;-)

alexandroff
03-09-2009, 01:20 AM
GH1 not being full frame is disappointing. but i guess panasonic is pushing a whole line of everything with their sensor size. It's brave of them to lead the way with the 1st officially announced dslr with manual video, pushing corporate scheming, video division, $ aside (Canon :) ) .

things will only get better for us with this, and i think 09 is the year of some solid dslr video camera foundation.

canon will now have to respond to this (unfortunately, not due to hearing its customers, but due to panasonic pushing it to a resolution) perhaps this response is as simple as a firmware update on 5d II. maybe it comes out even before GH1 (uh... this wont be too good for Panasonic).

nikon has to respond with something also, so perhaps D400 or whatever else is rumored is around the corner. my hope is that it comes out full frame. as nikon hasnt yet responded to 5D.

my hopes are to stick with nikon primes and hopefully get a full frame 1080 (in response to 5d) and manual control (in response to GH1) in the next nikon DSLR which hopefully gives better bitrate (less jello) and better codec.

Starscream
03-09-2009, 01:33 AM
my hopes are to stick with nikon primes and hopefully get a full frame 1080 (in response to 5d) and manual control (in response to gh1) in the next nikon dslr which hopefully gives better bitrate (less jello) and better codec.


+1

LizaWitz
03-09-2009, 01:50 AM
Liza termed it EVIL in another thread

I must admit, I totally stole that. And the flip-out LCD has become a required feature for me, too.


So, it honestly doesn't really have to be AS GOOD AS the 5D's image considering price. What it may lack there it probably makes up for and beyond with feature sets and affordability: manual controls come to mind.

True, I just don't see a reason that it won't meet or surpass the 5D. Maybe the 5D will be able to produce a more desaturated image than the GH1, that's probably my biggest worry at this point (that the GH1 won't allow you to go far enough, though I don't know that the 5D does.)


Until june itīs a long time. ... But in a few weeks or month Nikon will pronounce their new toys - lets it call D400, D800, D5000 or whatever. Iīm pretty sure that this will change the purchase intentions a lot - in any event my.....

I don't think so. I think the thing that really makes the GH1 compelling is that Panasosonic got it, they understood who their target market is. This is why it shoots 24. (I guess Nikon got it right there too.) This is why it shoots with manual control and a custom designed lens.

A firmware release or new camera this year from Nikon or Canon is not going to do that-- I don't think they are going to start making HD lenses that are quiet enough for video. (Maybe they already are quiet enough).

More importantly, I don't think they really get it about video. Video is a convenience feature to put on their cameras. I think even Canon is not really interested in cinematography.... they just wanted to show off and hired Mr. Laforte to do it.

IF they have gotten it, then they will start projects to produce the kind of products we're imagining, but I think that it will take at least a year to do so.

Panasonic has a real lead here and for a legitimate reason--- in fact, I think they will have the arena to themselves until they sell enough of these things to make Nikon or Canon feel threatened.

The competition for the GH1 is, I think, more likely to come from Samsung than from Nikon or Canon. Canon is in protection mode with their products and focused on Nikon. Nikon doesn't have a camcorder line to protect, but I think is too focused on Canon.

I could be wrong, of course, this is just my read of the market.

squig
03-09-2009, 02:15 AM
i'm actually cool with the d90 quality. but what bugs me is the possibility it will overheat, the bitrate could be better and no control over shutter. that's it. otherwise d90 has made me. i just think the gh1 will be a lot easier to work with.

It will be interesting to see if it overheats too. I was shooting some test shots at home last night with the D90 on the steadytracker and it overheated. It was 24 degrees C inside (75 degrees f) It shut down just as I'd locked my exposure for 50hz fluoro's! So annoying!

Uwe Lansing
03-09-2009, 02:39 AM
Canon + Nikon canīt afford to ignore the urgent and constant calls after manual control. Canon has just announced in a white paper that they will offer manual controls as soon as possible. Nikon will do the same - no doubt about it. They will not relinquish this expanded + promising market to companies like Panasonic and Samsung. Nobody gonna believe that.

And yes, maybe they are not ready this year to offer a soundless AF - but it will soon take place. And most filmmaker here donīt need AF as they mentioned. The other side of the story is, that Nikon has the best lenses on the market. And most professionals already have quite a few. The zoom-lens of pana cost around 800,-. with a f-stop of 4.0. Sure there will come more till the end of the year with af-abilities. But they will cost a lot too. The old used Nikon-FX-Lenses you can get rather inexpensive.... and so on and so forth...

Letīs wait and see...

Park Edwards
03-09-2009, 10:45 AM
I doubt Nikon or Canon will respond to the GH1. They make cameras for photographers. And bank on making good glass. Panasonic on the other hand saw the attention the d90 and mk2 was getting and did it right. I think they were aiming at the RED products to be honest. I'm willing to bet you won't see a good vdslr from Nikon or Canon for a while. The newest Nikon D??? will have the same flaws as the d90, but at 1080p. Also, you can probably bet the GH1 won't overheat, plain and simple fact, everything uses the LCD.

Uwe Lansing
03-09-2009, 11:25 AM
...I'm willing to bet you won't see a good vdslr from Nikon or Canon for a while...

Haha... thatīs my second wager. I already got one with Matt. But youīre on - 5 bucks/euro. I suppose "for a while" means this year...

To avoid any misunderstanding - the GH1 will be a great camera. Thatīs for sure. But Canon + Nikon will make it just as well...

Park Edwards
03-09-2009, 01:10 PM
alright, lets wager this. I say Canon will probably have a new camera, but it wont' be a DSLR, it'll be in their pro lineup, like XH-A1 but will all the Mk2 features. Nikon will probably have a better Movie Mode, but it will only harness 1080p but will have all the same limitations the D90 has. I.E. horrible rolling shutter and probably lack of manual control. Probably a better bitrate. It won't have a FF sensor, that's just how they'll roll. It would jeopardize all their Pro Model camera's. 5/euro, you're on.

taubkin
03-09-2009, 02:56 PM
It won't be FF. That's for sure. But manual controls? I bet yes. (I guess you'll have to choose on this one for the bet to be valid! :D )

squig
03-09-2009, 05:16 PM
The panny is tempting but I'm really not liking the 2x crop factor......my wide lenses aren't wide enough as it is on the D90. But if it gets to June (I start shooting in June) and Nikon or Canon don't respond I'll probably shoot the film on the panny provided the picture surpasses the D90's. I'd like to shoot it in 1080p and I'm getting annoyed with overheating, 50hz scrolling waves and the heavy compression. But it really comes down to the picture, so panasonic impress me.

Zak has been surprisingly quiet on this thread.....maybe he knows something we don't?

Park Edwards
03-09-2009, 05:37 PM
how many shots do you plan to use a wide angle lens on? unless Zak secretly works for Panasonic he probably knows as much as the guy who started this thread.

squig
03-09-2009, 05:54 PM
how many shots do you plan to use a wide angle lens on? unless Zak secretly works for Panasonic he probably knows as much as the guy who started this thread.

Lots of shots, I want a surreal look.
He's been talking to Nikon

squig
03-09-2009, 06:14 PM
I was just looking at stu's blog and there was talk of a minimum 1/60th shutter speed setting......if that's true we can forget about the GH1 in PAL land.....50hz scrolling wave hell!

Park Edwards
03-09-2009, 06:24 PM
we'll have to wait and see....at least they have an option for PAL whereas canon dropped the ball on that too. for your wides just move your camera back 25% more than you would if you had a d90. remember the d90 is 1.5x crop.

squig
03-09-2009, 09:19 PM
A few things from the panny specs-

no 5min record limit.....record till your card fills up
video monitoring through the viewfinder or LCD.....no more bag over your head
optical image stabilization in movie mode (built into the kit lens).....hold the jello
shoots PAL 1980x108050i 25fps (UK specs)
full time live view.......no overheating?

what I don't like-
17mbps compression....why not 24mbps?
108024p embedded in a 1080i60 stream.....dumb
2x crop factor.....need wider glass

what I want to know-
1/50th shutter?
big brother in development?
how well does it handle low light shooting?
can the true 1080p24 off the sensor be recorderd directly through the hdmi output before it gets encrusted?

more-
http://i.gizmodo.com/5163482/panasonic-lumix-dmc+gh1-micro-four-thirds-sequel-shoots-full-1080p-video
http://prolost.blogspot.com/2009/03/panasonic-gh1.html
http://www.panasonic.co.uk:80/html/en_GB/2146697/index.html?trackInfo=true

while it looks good on paper there are still some compromises with the compression and encoding.
Why can't any of the corporations get it right.....all I want is a digital replicant of 100 year old technology.

Park Edwards
03-09-2009, 09:37 PM
can someone explain to me why there's a problem with 1080i/60 stream or whatever the GH1 does? Doesn't PPro automatically add pulldown so it's output will be 24p? Just curious, I don't think I've ever edited 1080i/60p before. What other camera out there does this?

squig
03-09-2009, 09:54 PM
can someone explain to me why there's a problem with 1080i/60 stream or whatever the GH1 does? Doesn't PPro automatically add pulldown so it's output will be 24p? Just curious, I don't think I've ever edited 1080i/60p before. What other camera out there does this?

this post and the comments following in regards to worklow gives a good explanation
http://prolost.blogspot.com/2009/03/panasonic-gh1.html

Park Edwards
03-09-2009, 10:46 PM
yeah, i read that, but i'm still not registering as to why it's a problem. I'm pretty sure PPro adds 3:2 pulldown automatically when dealing with interlaced files working on a 24p timeline and it's no big headache at all. Dunno, guess I'll just have to wait for it to find out.

And, I'm probably wrong but isn't the signal fed to the lcd screen 1080 60i but the final product is 24p?

John Caballero
03-09-2009, 10:47 PM
108024p embedded in a 1080i60 stream.....dumb

The 1080p in the HVX 200 does the same thing, so I guess this is nothing new.

LizaWitz
03-09-2009, 11:01 PM
Lots of shots, I want a surreal look.

For wide angle, I'm guessing OIS and focus are not as critical, so you can use any wide angle lens you really like. Course, you do have the crop factor to deal with. Raynox makes some adapters for the G1 that may work, if you need something too wide to be affordable.


I was just looking at stu's blog and there was talk of a minimum 1/60th shutter speed setting....

Well, when shooting 60p, you can't have a shutter speed longer than a frame, right?



full time live view.......no overheating?

Current G1 uses full time live view, with no reports of overheating.


17mbps compression....why not 24mbps?

The CPU in the new camera is dual core. There is H.264 encoding hardware intellectual property out there, its quite likely they dropped one of those into the CPU-- thus 17Mbps may be all thats needed.


Why can't any of the corporations get it right.....all I want is a digital replicant of 100 year old technology.

Where I'm standing, unless they did someting stupid I'm not aware of, they are the first company to get it right. I *really* hate AVCHD because it adds nothing over MPEG4 but pointless restrictions... but that and the rest are quibbles in the face of what's important to me.

Park Edwards
03-09-2009, 11:08 PM
also squig, what's the widest lens you have? if you have a 28mm for the d90 a 20mm would act the same on the gh1.

squig
03-10-2009, 01:09 AM
also squig, what's the widest lens you have? if you have a 28mm for the d90 a 20mm would act the same on the gh1.
I have a nikkor 28mm but I'm looking at getting an arsat 20mm. But the annoying thing is you have to use an f/2.8 20mm lens to get the same FOV as a 28mm f/2 on the D90. On a full frame camera you could use a 35mm f/1.4 to get approx the same FOV. So with a 2x crop factor you can't really have fast and wide.

If I buy the panny I might get the 7-14mm depending on how spendy it is. it's f/4 but it could be really useful for running around with the steadytracker, the OIS and AF could be really useful for extreme run and gun work.

It just bugs me that it's only 17mbps when there are cheap camcorders out there that do 24mbps.

Panasonic Australia are saying it will be available late may.

mattsand
03-10-2009, 02:19 AM
pp doesn't remove pulldown automatically (it certainly doesn't "add" it, who'd want 150 fps?), i don't know any software that does. i know plenty that can do it, but it's far from automatic and almost always requires an extra step. advanced pulldown can often be removed more or less automatically but they're not saying that it's what's being used.

/matt

Nik Manning
03-10-2009, 04:22 AM
The 1080p in the HVX 200 does the same thing, so I guess this is nothing new.

I don't think the hvx does this. Can someone clarify? 1080p24 in a 1080i60 stream. My hv20 does.

Uwe Lansing
03-10-2009, 04:48 AM
There is new footage of the GH1 online:
http://exposureroom.com/members/DVC.aspx/assets/f00474ac514d40588e86dd858966baed/

Edit: 1080/24p-Version:
http://exposureroom.com/members/DVC.aspx/assets/38c5fbace36a4263b4d4fc21fafc341c/

xxxxx1
03-10-2009, 09:29 AM
video download link:
720p
exposureroom.com/AssetProvider.aspx?id=83a7f54a80c552420eca82211898 8d8a0e7e7c118ae9da8b42a355462bea751b763bb19ec10a92 3b0d11731963faee37ee3ec9ecbb690dd379eac5c9bea807f0&size=lr&ref=02a1fdbdd148d8d478affaa98f9dff6e6e8364c78182a2 0288102d915d752b7324a14529225dcf3ba7746328fa6a400b


1080
exposureroom.com/AssetProvider.aspx?id=14ec3b8448df30f7c645fb9fa40f 602eadf94acfd43581d1abf820efe229638bae1c994d638f5b 5522eff35ffe393c4782c56991d6a1e1867ee65072647adc7d&size=lr&ref=02a1fdbdd148d8d478affaa98f9dff6e09fe5cb157396c 4fb3c0722b88d0ad33c58be07c5795ecedbf6773b724549d71

Uwe Lansing
03-10-2009, 10:13 AM
Do you like what you see there? I definitely not very much...

BTW: The download-link doesnīt work

Park Edwards
03-10-2009, 10:31 AM
it wasn't bad considering compression on top of, what looks like a faulty camera or should say prototype. skew is there, but not nearly as bad as the d90. dof looked fine. but what's weird is that he says it can't go any slow than 1/60th? why 1/60th? he compressed it to 720p which sucks cause I wanted to see full 1080 and I don't want someone else compressing it. 24p was good too. other than that, June is still a few months away for them to get the compression ironed out.

you have to log in to d/l the clips.

Uwe Lansing
03-10-2009, 10:37 AM
... but what's weird is that he says it can't go any slow than 1/60th? why 1/60th? ...

I suppose with 60fps you canīt go any slower with shutter speed than 1/60...?

Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 10:54 AM
The panny is tempting but I'm really not liking the 2x crop factor......my wide lenses aren't wide enough as it is on the D90.
For clarification, there's not a 2x crop factor from the D90 down to the GH1. It'd be a very small crop difference between those two (with the D90 having the wider field of view). The 2x crop factor is in reference to a 35mm full-frame still camera, vs. the GH1.

Barry_Green
03-10-2009, 10:56 AM
I don't think the hvx does this. Can someone clarify? 1080p24 in a 1080i60 stream. My hv20 does.
Yes, the HVX in 1080/24p mode embeds 24fps within a 1080/60i stream, as does every Sony HDV camcorder and the HV20, etc.

In 24pA mode it does something different but similar; it's still within a 60i stream but it's four progressive frames followed by a "padding" frame. But yes, it's recorded as 60i.

Pretty much all 1080/24p has traditionally been recorded as 60i; the newer pro cameras (XHA1/XLH1, EX1/EX3, and any AVC-Intra camcorder) can record 1080/24p as native 24p with no pulldown. The HMC150 also does this; AVCHD does provide for 1080/24pN.

PaPa
03-10-2009, 10:57 AM
all of these different cameras are just making my head spin.

Is there a DSLR that offers 1080 24p, with free choice of shutter speed (1/48th preferably ) with the ability to record sync sound, without jello vision? Also one that would allow you to use 35mm lenses without having to suffer a crop factor due to smaller sensors? It just feels like they are so close but a few features throws them off from being what we need?

What seems to be the consensus? Wait?

Eddy Robinson
03-10-2009, 12:21 PM
Do you like what you see there? I definitely not very much...

I see skew people...but not so much that it looks obnoxious. I could work around that amount if that's the worst aspect of the camera. The banding and lines I'm willing to ignore, my guess is that the prototype model is running debug code at the software level which always runs slower than production software. I'll be surprised if it's an issue by release time.

Emanuel
03-10-2009, 12:56 PM
What seems to be the consensus? Wait?No. Shoot with what you can afford now or you'll always have to wait for the next upcoming technology.