Capturing 24p using backup miniDV Cam?

[CAmerican]

What "simple setup" mode should I use for Final Cut Pro 5 to capture 24p using a backup miniDV camcorder.

When I capture directly into FCP from my DVX100bp I have no problems setting it to Advance Pulldown 2:3:3:,
however when I picked up a GS320 minicam to capture, I get what looks like "interlaced lines" and the picture looks bad.

I'm new to capturing with a backup miniDV camcorder -- any ideas what's going on?

[alignment1]

what are your sequence settings?

[CaptainMench]

Are you sure you mean 24P??? What does that mean to YOU?

CaptM

[CAmerican]

I am using my DVX100bp in 24p mode.

FCP Settings:

DV-NTSC 24p (23.98) Advanced Pulldown
sequence: DV NTSC 48 khz - 23.98
capture preset: DV NTSC 48 Khz Advanced (2:3:3:2) pulldown removal

Secondary question - would the FCP settings be the same for 24p vs. 24pa?

Thanks! (and yes .. i'm new but an engineer by trade ;-)

[CaptainMench]

That's what I thought...

Ok, read this: http://www.adamwilt.com/24p/index.html

Then we'll talk.

CaptM

[CAmerican]

Thanks - that article was very useful. SO, what I gather is that I should shoot in 24p
ADVANCED and then use the advanced pull-down capture with FCP regardless of what
DV cam I'm used to capture.

Here's a clip of what I was seeing -- what's this called?



file:///Users/nealschneider/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/moz-screenshot.jpg

[CaptainMench]

Well, here's the thing... (First... thanks for reading that article -- one of the most comprehensive and still easy to understand ways of getting this concept).

Second: What you are seeing is INTERLACING. NOT A BAD thing. It's a natural part of video. Your TV for the last 50plus years has always broadcast interlaced video. The only reason it bothers you now is that you are watching it on a (basically) PROGRESSIVE monitor -- and you've STOPPED the frame on a single frame and you are seeing the two FIELDS... your TV would have given you HALF that information TWICE as fast... the UP and the DOWN fields.

So again, BY DEFINITION this isn't BAD.

SO -- Panasonic gave you a few options here. Let's take 24p mode (I'll call it a MODE so not to confuse it with a frame rate). 24p mode gives you a FILM LOOK. FILM LOOK here means that if you watch a film broadcast over the air and watched on your TV this is kind of what you'd see.

The film was shot in 24 fps. TVs don't/can't broadcast in 24 fps, so they ADD frames (telecine is the term) to the film to make it 30 frames per second. As you read in the article above.

SO -- here's what the geniuses at Panasonic do for you. The 'shutter' on the DVX shoots 24 times a second. BEFORE IT GOES TO TAPE (which can only handle 30 frames per second DV) it MUST add those additional frames. It does so in two ways, but first we'll talk about what 24p mode does.

24p mode uses a 3:2 cadence. So, it breaks up the 24 frames into 6 groups of 4. Thru some magic described in that article it COMBINES some frames and leaves some other frames as PROGRESSIVE (Notice as you frame thru your video some frames won't have this INTERLACING). With 24p mode you get 3 progressive and 2 combined for every 5 frames of video.

Again... isn't really an editable format... just a nice thing Panasonic does so you can shoot film look and not really edit well, mainly because although the cadence is pleasing to the eye it can get jumbled up when editing and prove LESS than pleasing to the eye.

CAPTURE THIS VIDEO AS NORMAL 29.97 FPS and leave it alone.

SO!!!....

Panasonic gave us the 24pA mode. Again, because the tape will only record 30 fps (actually 29.97, but don't worry about that) Panasonic wanted you to have the chance to acutally EDIT A 24 fps PROGRESSIVE 'film' they had to give it to you in a way FCP would understand what to do.

THIS time, instead of taking those 4 frames and combining them to give you 3 and 2... they used the ADVANCED PULLDOWN CADENCE of 2:3:3:2 (again described in the above article). THIS time, the use 6 groups of 4, but combine them in such a way that you get these 4 frames progressive plus only ONE frame combined. This makes it VERY easy for FCP to say -- HEY, what the heck are these... I'll just throw them away. NOW... you have a true 24 fps video (23.98 - but don't worry about that now) and can edit it in a 23.98 sequence!!!

BUT only if you use the REMOVE Advanced Pulldown Cadence on capture, or if you capture normally use the TOOLS menu to remove it.

When done correctly you won't have these lines.

OK OK OK OK OK OK... now to answer your question:

"So, I gather that I shoot 24pA and use the advanced pulldown capture"

YES!!!! Bravo!!!! EXACTLY!!!! Hee.

Ok...

Advanced lesson: Not for the noobs, so don't tell anyone - You can actually use the program Cinema Tools to (new term) REVERSE TELECINE the 24p mode footage and make it true 23.98 progressive JUST like shooting 24pA mode!!!

But don't tell anyone -- and I'm not going to tell you how to do that just yet. Once you REALLY need it and I've determined that indeed you DO know what you are doing AND you know for SURE that your footage MIGHT be lost for all time AND you REALLY are sure you have 24P MODE material -- then send $10 to a charity of your choice in my name and I'll tell you.

CaptM

[CAmerican]

Thank you, thank you, thank you, captain!

I really appreciate all the responsive help I am seeing on this site. It makes me
proud to me a dvxuser.

The only downside is my girlfriend is bummed i'm spending all nights with my
i-mac instead of with her.

[horvath_dvx]

I have the exact problem, So I shall shoot in 24pa for film look? and less hassle in FCP ,the interlace nonsense that happens is annoying. So I am shooting docus and such 24pa will be safe to film in using your knowledge as a reference ?

[horvath_dvx]

I have the exact problem, So I shall shoot in 24pa for film look? and less hassle in FCP ,the interlace nonsense that happens is annoying. So I am shooting docus and such 24pa will be safe to film in using your knowledge as a reference ?anyone??

[CaptainMench]

It can be.

CaptM

[horvath_dvx]

I also heard, 24p is good for mixing with normal 60i footage, and 24pa is used on a time line of itself. That true? I like to know forsure.

[CaptainMench]

Yes, forsure.

BUT ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING ANYWAY!!!

So, yes, forsure IF you are asking what I think you are ONLY.

Ok?

CaptM

[horvath_dvx]

Yep I totally follow, thank you.

[mtrump]

Is the 24p Advanced function the same as the 24p on a Canon XL2...I know that this is a DVX User forum but this and that article has been the best explanation I could find so far. If its not the same way to capture in FCP would anyone happen to know how do to capture 24p in FCP that was shot with a XL2.