HPX 170 PAL upgrade

[countrymatters]

Hi,

I've been waiting for confirmation on whether or not the 170 can be upgraded to include PAL shooting modes before purchasing the camera. I can't seem to get any conclusive information on whether or not Panasonic is living up to the initial statements stating that this would be possible. What is the official word on this?

I called a dealer here in Vancouver who told me that as of two days ago, Panasonic Canada says that it IS NOT possible to upgrade the North American versions of the camera. This contradicts a user on this forum who states they upgraded their camera by sending it to Panasonic (US I think) and paying the $500 upgrade fee (in line with what Panasonic originally stated). What the hell is going on here?? We know it's technically possible since there's the 171 in Europe which can shoot in both modes. I simply don't understand why Panasonic is making this so difficult. Would it not be easier for everyone if you just produced a single model and sold it worldwide with the same options?

Since I need to shoot in various locations around the world in HD or SD, it seems I only have 2 options (in order of preference):

1. buy the 171 in Europe and try to take advantage of the current winter promotion which bundles the 2 32 GB cards for a good package price.

2. buy the Sony EX1 and downconvert footage when I need to deliver in SD

Can someone from Panasonic (Jan?) please clarify what the situation is with this? I would rather buy locally but from what I found out today - that doesn't seem possible. Also, I would rather buy the HPX as I will be shooting mostly SD at first and I prefer the DVC Pro codec over XDCAM.

For those of you in the UK and Europe, can you provide some names and or web addresses of reputable dealers so I can get some information from them?

Thank you in advance for any information you can provide.

Andrew

[CW-35]

Hi Andrew,

I definitely had my 170 upgraded to PAL.

You should contact :

Panasonic Broadcast & Television Systems Company
Division of Panasonic Corporation of North America
Technical Support Center (USA)
pbtscservice@us.panasonic.com
800-524-1448

has anyone else had this done? just curious.

[puredrifting]

CW, you are the first and only I have heard of on any of the boards who has.

Dan

[countrymatters]

It seems like the only option is to buy a camera from Europe and roll the dice on the warranty. This is a completely crazy situation in my opinion - Panasonic have designed and built a camera (the 171E) that is more flexible than the Sony EX-1 (it's closest competing product) in terms of the formats it can shoot, except in North America (170), where it's 60Hz only. Where is the logic in this?

Apart from CW, there doesn't seem to be anyone else who has done the so-called PAL upgrade, and if it's a service Panasonic is providing, they are very tight-lipped about the whole process. Now I'm very seriously considering the EX-1 which would have been my second choice, since I will need to deliver SD formats at first (in NTSC and PAL).

If there is someone from Panasonic monitoring these boards, can you please comment on this? You would think in tough economic times, companies would be making products more attractive to buy, not less by restricting their features in different markets. If there is a good reason for doing this, I'm happy to be educated as to why.

[puredrifting]

If you are considering spending thousands of dollars on a professional camcorder, why would you not contact Panasonic Service directly and ask them? I don't think CW is lying, he really did do the upgrade to his camcorder and he really did pay the conversion fee and shipping. Not sure why you would expect someone from Panasonic service to be trolling these boards and seeking out this particular thread.

Jan Crittenden is a product manager, not a serivice manager. When my 170 needed the lens wobble fix, I called Panasonic Service in LA and they set up the fix. Why don't you do the same? You are right, Panasonic has been quiet about the PAL upgrade but if CW had it done, any of us could as well if we wanted to pony up the money. Fortunately, I don't deal with PAL clients so I don't care but if having a PAL capable camera is important to you, choosing to go with a completely different camera just over this one point, when you can buy a 171 or have a 170 modified, seems illogical.

Good luck,

Dan

[CW-35]

I am assuming you have read this thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=132528

If you read my posts in this thread you will see I was quite adamantly pursuing a PAL upgrade for my camera for quite some time. I sent panasonic an email or phoned just about every week for many months. They let me know when it was available. I had it done. It exists. I posted that contact info above. I don't know what else I could possibly say about that. I now have a 171E camera with a US warranty.

I have printed Panasonic literature from last year that stated that the 170 would be PAL/NTSC out of the box but that obviously changed prior to its release. I was given a range of goofy answers as to why that was and I never really took any of them to heart as fact. I will chalk it up to one of life's mysteries at this point and move on.

I would imagine the whole after purchase PAL upgrade at this point has probably been a bit of an experiment for Panasonic to determine if there is a real interest in North America for this feature.

If I am the only one who has had this done, then I guess they got their answer... But I doubt I am the only one but obviously the interest in this is actually quite minimal .

[countrymatters]

Hi guys,

I certainly wasn't implying that CW was lying about upgrading his camera and I do appreciate the help in tracking this issue down. I haven't called the number CW provided because I live in Canada which is a whole other nightmare when dealing with cross border issues, warrantee, shipping, etc... I have spoken with a dealer here in Vancouver who said that Panasonic Canada has said it isn't possible. I was hoping that there would be an official statement about this by now - that way, I could avoid jumping through a million hoops (as it seems CW did). I will call the number tomorrow anyway, as now I'm curious what their response will be. I will post a follow up in case anyone else has been wondering about this.

It seems odd that CW is the only person to have this done, since the poll done prior to the 170's release indicated that the majority of users would want both of the NTSC/PAL modes. I would have thought this would have been a bigger issue. Maybe not.

Surely, someone like Jan would have encountered this question before, and judging from her comments and persistence in getting to the bottom of other issues, she is extremely knowledgeable, so I thought the best answer would come from her - a Panasonic representative (the horses mouth so to speak). It just seems odd to me that a potentially very attractive selling point is so mysterious.

It seems like buying from an authorized dealer in the UK would be the best solution for me, as they have the winter promotion, so if there are any UK citizens reading this, can you please suggest some reputable companies I can contact?

Thanks.

[puredrifting]

but obviously the interest in this is actually quite minimal .

I have to agree with you CW. I know it was important to you, but I think it just offended more potential buyers who felt that we were getting the short end of the stick than actually appealed to users who actually need it. Usually people who need PAL own PAL cameras and are from PAL countries. I don't think that proportionately very many pros need to deliver 50 and 60Hz frame rates, at least U.S. based videographers/cinematographers.

For me, it would be nice feature to have but I shot with the dual standard Z1U for two years and never used the 50Hz feature once, other than just switching it on to see if it worked. If I freelanced for Euro-based clients, then it would be a lifesaver.

Dan

[countrymatters]

Hey CW:

Just curious, now that you have shot with both the EX-1 and the HPX, and you could do it all over again, what camera would you choose (assuming you could only have one).

Also, did you deliver any SD content as well when you were shooting with the EX-1? If so, was it a time consuming process? I've worked with XDCAM quite a bit and have found it to be really great right up until you go to output the show - then it's a complete nightmare, reconforming and rendering times are ridiculous. I'm using FCP 6.0.2 - maybe there's a setting I'm missing somewhere. I was outputting back to an XDCAM deck same format as sequence 1080i/60 VBR. It literally took about 4 hours to reconform/render before it would output.

Thanks again.

PS - I just re-read the thread you posted re: PAL upgrade, where a number of people stated it would happen, at first it was free with registration, then it was $300 and eventually $500. I'm not frustrated like you must have been because I haven't purchased the camera yet - this is all part of my due diligence. I have to say though, despite my reservations, the EX-1 is looking more and more attractive.

[puredrifting]

IMHO, the 171 is a better deal. If I needed a dual standard camera, I would have bought one. The prices are significantly lower than the 170 prices here and since Panasonic gives a 5 year warranty on the 170, they are pretty confident that the camera will not need many warranty repairs so I would probably be as well.

If you have a major need for SD, and want to shoot with the EX1 and edit with FCP, your best bet would be to buy an Aja Kona 3 card, it does real time hardware downconversion that looks pretty amazing. I use mine for DVD outputs and have also output to DBeta via SDI. You really should shoot with both before deciding which will suit your needs best. I can't think of two more different feeling, looking and operationally different camcorders in the same price range. I shoot with both all of the time and like both but they are totally different.

Good luck,

Dan

[countrymatters]

Thanks for your opinion. I'm thinking along the same lines as you have suggested - the 171. It's a better deal especially now that they are offering this winter promotion package with 2 x 32 GB cards for 4368 GBP, which is roughly, $6200 USD. My next step is to find a dealer to buy it from and figure out the logistics of doing so. I tried a 171 when I was in Germany and thought the picture was great, better than expected, but the Sony feels more rugged and I like the LCD and the lens much better. A tough decision because there are things I really dislike about each, but for my needs, the 171 would be the best bang for the buck I think.

Thanks.

[puredrifting]

Let us know how your deal turns out once you get it and who you bought from.

Enjoy!

Dan

[countrymatters]

Just a follow up in case anyone else is wondering. I contacted Panasonic USA and asked if it was possible to have a camera that was purchased in Canada shipped and upgraded in the USA and then shipped back to Canada. This was their response:

"Upgrade is available ONLY to end-user USA customers who purchased camera
sold by Panasonic Broadcast and Television Systems, Division of
Panasonic Corporation of North America or its Authorized Dealer, and
registered camera on PASS registration website
http://panasonic.biz/sav/pass_e.
The cost of this upgrade is $500.00 + tax + S/H (UPS 2nd day)."

They kindly provided me with Panasonic Canada's contact information so I will contact them as well despite the fact that I've been told by two different dealers here in Vancouver that the upgrade isn't available in Canada. Once those options are exhausted, I think I will try and purchase the camera from a dealer in the UK, but the warrantee then becomes an issue - it's 2 years there and I would have to be in europe to get any warrantee issues dealt with. I really think Panasonic has dropped the ball big time on not making the 170 PAL/NTSC switchable out of the box like it's European cousin the 171. I would have already bought the camera if it wasn't such a convoluted situation. The more I look at the EX-1, the better it looks.

[puredrifting]

That is a bummer but as others have pointed out, hardly anyone has taken advantage of this offer. I agree that it is kind of lame that Panasonic USA didn't just make the camera PAL switchable native as the 171 is or just sell the 171 worldwide but that is their internal marketing decision. I am sure that Jan & her marketing team have specific and confidential reasons why things are this way.

I am still convinced that the amount of North American users who really care about this feature is miniscule. In my experience in hosting French, Spanish and English crews on projects shooting here, they were all still shooting PAL, none were shooting NTSC. Not sure why there would ever be even slightly significant numbers of North American users who need to shoot PAL (yes, I know there are 5 or 10 of you, but when you are going to sell 50,000 cameras, that number is statistically insignificant, I guess?)

Sony has done this, yet Panasonic doesn't so it must be some sort of marketing issue is all I can think of.

If it were important to me, I would just order a 171 and be done with it. U.S. $5,200.00 plus another $500.00 makes $5,700.00 plus shipping to have a world standard HPX170 versus I think you can buy a 171 for as little as U.S. $3,800.00? There is always that remote chance about dealing with warranty service though which is a bummer.

As far as your situation, since you are in Canada, it seems like you are out of luck anyway, which I also find kind of lame. Do you have any friends or relatives in the U.S.? You could always have them buy it, do the mod, then ship it to you. Not hard to get around.

Dan

[CW-35]

Honestly, you are a great candidate for the EX1. You need a multi-format camera and Sony offers one without all of the hoops to jump through. It's a great camera.

I keep wondering when an EX2 is going to hit the scene?




The more I look at the EX-1, the better it looks.

[puredrifting]

CW, this is going to piss you off. Not only are all of the mid to upper level Sonys (EX1, EX3 and up) already world standard, they are even offering the upgrade for $300.00 on this 3G HDV camcorders http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/atepper/story/sony_upgrades_3g_hdv_camcorders_to_universal_for_a _small_fee/

Dan

[Barry_Green]

All the mid-to-upper level Panasonics are too (HPX500 on up). It's just the USA-branded 200 & 170 & 150 that aren't, but the European ones are (201, 171, and 151).

[CW-35]

you know, it doesn't really upset me to see that at all. I have made my peace with all of this and trying to get the most use out of my 170.

I'm actually glad to see the interest in multi-format use largely for the reason that it was really hard for me to make a decision on this last September.

There are a lot more options at this point, 4 months later, which is good.

[puredrifting]

Barry:

Do you have any insight or even guesses why the U.S. versions were made non-PAL capable?

Dan

[Barry_Green]

My guess is that it was intended to prevent gray marketing. It's not just the US versions, it's all the versions everywhere, except Europe. They're all single-system. But for some reason Europe got dual-system. Don't know why. It's annoying.

[puredrifting]

Yes, I have seen some posts from South Africa and a few other countries expressing the same annoyance. We demand equal treatment as our buddies in Europe. Sony does it, Panasonic should as well.

Dan

[Barry_Green]

Everyone should. It's a global economy, a global marketplace, our tools should be globally useable.

Sony doesn't do it for everything though; they did it for the Z1 but then they took it away for the V1. They do it for the EX1 and up, Panasonic does it for the 500 and up, but yes it'd be nice if it extended downwards in the range too, especially because we know it's possible on as low as a 150.

[countrymatters]

The main reason I would like to stick with the 170(1) is that it can shoot SD and HD which the EX-1 doesn't do and I will need to deliver most of what I will shoot this year in SD but in both PAL and NTSC (which the 170 doesn't do in Canada anyway). Now I'm trying to find a solution for buying the camera from a dealer in the UK, but they aren't responding to my emails.

Anyone have any experience with importing the camera from Europe or the UK to Canada? I'm wondering what if any duties I will have to pay over and above Canadian taxes. This is so stupid - that I can't just buy the damn thing here, as Barry said--very frustrating.

[countrymatters]

Well, I ended up ordering a 171 from mitcorp in the UK - and it just arrived today. I got the package deal which included 2 32Gb P2 cards for 3799 GBP. In Canadian dollars, including the shipping and all taxes, it was about $7500 (about 6070 USD) which is a great deal. I was testing it out today and all seems fine - so I'm a happy camper. My first shoot is in Australia at the end of March, so I have some time to experiment with the camera for a few weeks thankfully. Thanks to all who contributed to this post.

[CW-35]

I just saw that there is a firmware update for the 170. So, it makes me wonder (& I am going to contact Panasonic to find out) if I now have to send the camera in to Panasonic to have them perform this firmware upgrade. Will it wipe out my PAL settings?

Part of the problems of having this upgrade done to the camera.

[tbrown1976]

Hi CW,

How long did it take for Panasonic to upgrade your camera. I am living in Cambodia and have an HPX 170 and would like it to shoot PAL. I might have to take care of it when i fly back or maybe they can do it in Asia somewhere.

Thanks,
Todd

[CW-35]

It was really fast. Just a couple of days. I sent it in as I was going out of town on work & it was back when I returned.

I did a bunch of tests back in the fall in ways to "fake" PAL footage with the camera, when there was no definite timeline for the PAL upgrade and I needed to shoot PAL.

Take a look at this thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=145744

I ended up using an EX1 for that shoot...

[tbrown1976]

Sounds great, thanks! I will try that. Overall, were you pleased with the results of this process? Out of curiosity in which city is the place you sent your HPX to?

Thanks!

[Greggerjones]

I just saw that there is a firmware update for the 170. So, it makes me wonder (& I am going to contact Panasonic to find out) if I now have to send the camera in to Panasonic to have them perform this firmware upgrade. Will it wipe out my PAL settings?

Part of the problems of having this upgrade done to the camera.


Did it wipe the PAL settings?

[CW-35]

I have not run the update and I am not sure if I can since I am on Mac with the latest OS.

But, I did contact Panasonic and they did say that this update would not wipe the PAL upgrade and that it was safe for me to do it.

[Ehrik]

I just inquired with Jan about the PAL upgrade for the HPX170 and she gave me the same excuse about cameras that were purchased in Canada - they can't be serviced unless they're from the US...

This is totally inexcusable from Panasonic!

I purchased my camera in North America (in Canada) and registered it through Panasonic North America (in the US). Why can't North American customers from Canada get their cameras serviced for the PAL upgrade??

This is an unfair business practice from Panasonic considering that European customers get a superior camera with the PAL/NTSC option and better resolution while North American customers get stuck with a gimped camera at the same price(!)


I like Panasonic products but this is a definate deal breaker for their professional customers, production companies and producers that travel often to Europe - they should be informed of this prior to purchase!

[Barry_Green]

II purchased my camera in North America (in Canada) and registered it through Panasonic North America (in the US). Why can't North American customers from Canada get their cameras serviced for the PAL upgrade??
The upgrade is performed on US cameras, by the US service center. If you want a Canadian camera upgraded, you'd have to take that up with Panasonic Canada.

The simple fact is that Panasonic USA is supplying a service to their customers. They don't owe that service to Panasonic Canada customers, or Panasonic Latin America customers, or any other division. There's a Panasonic Canada, and that's who you bought your camera from, and that's who made the profit when you bought, and that's who would be servicing your camera. So if you want the service you'd have to discuss that with Canada.


This is an unfair business practice from Panasonic considering that European customers get a superior camera with the PAL/NTSC option and better resolution while North American customers get stuck with a gimped camera at the same price(!)
It's not the same price, the European camera was substantially more expensive. Whether it still is or not, I don't know, but at the time it was introduced that was the reason we were told -- the Europeans got the switchability, but their cameras cost much more.

[Ehrik]

Understood, but my point is that there is no USA or Canada specific model - they're the same HPX-170P. US and Canada are under the same North American Panasonic network - Look at the Panasonic International Website and you'll see what I mean.

Furthermore, the Panasonic «Customer Acknowledgement of conditions for AG-HPX-170P Optional Upgrade» form mentions absolutely nothing about conditional US models only.

Much more? An HPX171 w/ 32GB card with bag costs 4000 euro (5315 usd) and an HPX170 w/ 16GB card is 4895 usd - they're just about identical if you bump up the 16GB P2 card to a 32GB.

Sorry, there is no excuse for preferential treatment within the Panasonic North America network.