Canon updates Vixia line: HV40, HF S10/100/HF20/200 [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

Ian Slessor

01-05-2009, 01:12 PM

...because I LOVE my DVX cams but I'm thinking of going HD and, right now, can't do the move to, say the HMC150 but could easily grab a couple or three of the new Canons.

How useful would they be for shooting dance recitals, figure skating, etc? I know they don't have the sexy factor of the nice, big DVX but I can deal with that.

Oh and have they dumped the hard-drives for solid state internal memory?

ian

Jack Daniel Stanley

01-05-2009, 06:58 PM

Guys I don't know if you fully you realize the full extent of the updates on the high end flash cameras? They're HV40/30/20 killers now.
HF s10 and HF s100
larger sensor than HF11 or HV30 with 4 X's the pixels
70 - 100% Zebra
MANUAL GAIN!
viewfinder
Manual control over shutter and aperture.
got rid of the joystick, went back to rolling focus wheel thing (not as good as prosumer cams but WAY better than a joytsick)
Much larger lens / filter size 58mm

The HFs100 and HFs10 KILL the HV40 except for native 24p that the HV40 now has. Which, if you have a mouse button that works, opposable thumbs, and all of your fingers (to check the remove pulldown box) doesn't matter. Yeah the HV40 got native 24p but 24p over 60 is the same way the HPX 500, a camera costs 10 times what these cameras will probably cost, does.

Some say that in August when canon updates the line again the Hfs100 and Hfs10 will get native 24p. But the sensor size and 8 mega pixel count + with the manual controls and larger lens / filter size are the HUGE things here. COMPLETE manual control with zebras and gain control with a ginormous sensor.

So if the only thing the HV40 has over the HFs10 and HFs100 is native 24p vs. 24p over 60, who cares. I mean it's not really a storage issue. With AVCHD you will never notice the storage difference a few frames a second makes and all you have to do to wind up with 23.98 on a 23.98 time lime is click the remove pulldown button.

Ian-T

01-05-2009, 07:04 PM

That's what I'm talking bout!!!! Can't wait to see some sample footage. The sensor with all those pixels might not help the low light features...but the overall picture should kill most everything out there. 9 Megapixels and all that manual control is definitely more enticing than the HV40.

Jack Daniel Stanley

01-05-2009, 07:11 PM

Yeah, even if I bought one of these this spring and Canon turned around in August and upgraded them to have native 24p I wouldn't really care at all. I mean you just click a button in post and your footage is identical to if you have 24p in the first place. Again, this is the same way a $10K camera, the HPX500, gets its 24p at a lower resolution even.

I've heard others voice the low light problems theory. You could be right. There's supposed to be new noise reduction software in play with these cams I think though.

Hopfully the software with the size of the sensor and how much light it's letting in will offset the potential noise caused by the pixel count. Have to wait and see...

Ian-T

01-05-2009, 07:22 PM

Hopfully the software with the size of the sensor and how much light it's letting in will offset the potential noise caused by the pixel count. Have to wait and see...Yeah. I don't think the 24p will be an issue for me either. It's basically instant access to your footage and right to pulldown removal. Compared to an HV20/30 you will save an hours worth of downloading time. So it's worth it there.

In regards to low light...it does not really matter. The fact that you can control gain on these cams is basically what most HV20/30 owners wanted all along. You don't have to rely on the cam automatically throwing in 29db of gain because you have total control of it right at your finger tips. This is a real plus.

I also like the bigger 58mm lens they have. The lens are supposed to be better than previous models. I don't know if it is just hype, but Canon is touting 900 lines of resolution. I'll wait for sample video on that...but that's impressive.

I'd say the HV40 is basically off my radar at this point.

Jack Daniel Stanley

01-05-2009, 07:33 PM

...
I'd say the HV40 is basically off my radar at this point.
That and the Letus Mini and HF11 I got at B&H 4 days ago are getting returned.

I sold my HVX and Extreme to cover some expenses and put the rest toward downgrading to something simpler and smaller (HF11+Letus Mini) that would feel more like shooting with my DVX back in the day,

But since I don't have an impending project to use them on withe the new announcements from Canon, plus the $3.75K attached lens Red in Fall (let's call it $4.25K) I'm just going to try to stuff my money under my mattress and not spend it until we see footage from the new Canons or the Scarlet. I know we're comparing apples and oranges, but ease of use and small form factor might be somethig I'm willing to sacrifice the super awesomeness of teh Scarlet for. I mean if it means putting the camera in my pocket and shooting 70% more with it just because I can, that's something to consider. Especially since I don't shoot my own larger projects so much anymore. The camera that I OWN would be a "freedom cam" that I could shoot a microbudget myself one weekend at a time over the course of a year or something. So portabillity, ease of use, hassle, low light performance are all factors I'll way in the balance.

Getting a $150 1080 30p shoot and share camera to do some pod casting and cover a trip I'm taking instead of the HF11 so I can put that money towards the Hfs100.

Huy Vu

01-05-2009, 07:53 PM

Something doesn't make sense to me. The HFs10 and HFs100 boasts an 8.95 MP sensor, but unless they've really up the sensor size, that's going to result in a major loss of sensitivity to the camera. It'd be interesting to see how this works out.

Ian Slessor

01-05-2009, 08:01 PM

That and the Letus Mini and HF11 I got at B&H 4 days ago are getting returned...

...instead of the HF11 so I can put that money towards the Hfs100.

Geez.

If JDS is feeling a lot of love for the new Canons maybe I WILL be selling my much-loved DVXs for the new HD cams.

hmmm. Yes, I think I'm moving closer and closer to that resolution.

ian

Jack Daniel Stanley

01-05-2009, 08:31 PM

I have some low light issues with ghosting with my HF11. That's one of the reasons I'm returning it for now.
So I am caustiously optimistic about the new ones. It's just that on paper the new cams look awesome.

I wanted to feel 100% in love with the HF11, but i think my expectations were a touch too high coming from the HVX. Also, you can only open up to 2.8 when using an adapter because that's as high as the camera will open up before introducing gain when zoomed in enough to use an adapter. So it's just to dark for an adapter at that point, if you want to do run and gun available light shooting, which I do if I'm doing my own mumble core type project.

Try out the canon's in different light, esp. low light before you make the leap. If these camera's can handle low light without tons of noise or ghosting. Then leap.

DVX100b kicks the Canon's asses in low light as of right now.

Ian Slessor

01-06-2009, 06:12 AM

DVX100b kicks the Canon's asses in low light as of right now.

Yeah, the lowlight is what I'll be watching for as well.

I do mostly dance recitals, figure skating shows...that sort of thing and, for the most part, lighting is strong and consistent.

If I decide to keep doing weddings I'm hoping the new HFS10/100 will be suitable for HD acquisition. I do have a Litepanel Micro so that helps somewhat.

Once they come out I think I'll pick one up and see how it compares in that respect to my DVXs. If it bombs dramatically then I'll have to return it. *sigh*

Here's hoping.:beer:

ian

Barry_Green

01-06-2009, 08:45 AM

Well, let's not dismiss that "native 24p" thing too soon. The worst aspect of working with an HV20's footage was that you *cannot* just "remove the pulldown" because Canon didn't put in the flags to tell the system where the pulldown was.

Is this different with the HF series? Are the flags there and can you successfully remove the pulldown?

Jack Daniel Stanley

01-06-2009, 08:55 AM

Well that's probably an assumption on my part having not worked with the Hf11 footage. If they are claiming to have 24p, real 24p which I thought the HV20/30 were I never imagined you couldn't remove pulldown on capture.

But if you can setup whatever process it is that's necessary to remove the pulldown and not have to baby sit it, and it's still faster than real time tape aquisition ... then your back to a wash again.

So yeah that is something. But still if you can get 23.98 out of it ... and it's around the $1K mark ... then ... still pretty good.

Now this thing records at 3K downsampled to 1K. It also has a feature called Pre Record via HDMI .... surely that doesn't mean that you could record the 3K signal via HDMI before it's downsampled ...
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=17992

Barry_Green

01-06-2009, 09:09 AM

Removing pulldown from an HV20 could be nightmarish, because every single clip you recorded could start its pulldown on a different field so you had to manually go in and guess the sequence for every clip. Nothing automated about it.

Perhaps it will be much easier on an AVCHD camera since each clip is an individual file, so maybe we'll get lucky and every file will start the cadence in the exact same position, meaning that pulldown removal could be automated?

Rick Horton

01-06-2009, 09:57 AM

I'm holding off on any camcorders for at least 1 year, maybe 2. There is going to be some real changes happening and I don't see a clear winner yet. On a side note, I'm pretty happy with my Canon HV20, and D90. They'll be more than fine until then. I just cant stand when the market is full of toys like it is now. I want to wait till some sort of peak has been hit.

Alan Bradley

01-06-2009, 10:50 AM

Does the HF-S10 and HF-S100 really have manual control over aperture and shutter? I'm a bit confused on that.

The canon website specs on the HF-S10 alludes to it having manual exposure. So would it simply be adjusting this new manual exposure feature in Tv mode now?

dcloud

01-06-2009, 12:40 PM

same as before except you can turn gain off now.
Tv mode,
set shutter to 1/48, lock it, adjust exposure (aperture).

Ian Slessor

01-06-2009, 02:19 PM

It also has a feature called Pre Record via HDMI .... surely that doesn't mean that you could record the 3K signal via HDMI before it's downsampled ...
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=177&modelid=17992

Hey JDS,

I think that the Pre-Record is like the HVX. You can set it to run for 3 seconds in a loop unitl you press "record."

If you're looking at the "features" list on the page you linked that is nothing but pictures I think the HDMI is a feature that just happens to be underneath the Pre-Record feature, not connected to it.

Still, what if you could record from the HDMI pre-compression? Not likely but would be all kinds of awesome.

ian

OSV

01-06-2009, 06:05 PM

DVX100b kicks the Canon's asses in low light as of right now.

as does my xl1s, over my hf11... but this HF S10/HF S100 stuff is the best cmos sensors that canon has ever put in a consumer camcorder, so we keep our fingers crossed.

better not ignore sony in any of this either, i bet that their upcoming 24Mbps camcorders are going to rock, i can't see 'em giving up all of this market share to canon.

Barry_Green

01-06-2009, 06:19 PM

Still, what if you could record from the HDMI pre-compression? Not likely but would be all kinds of awesome.
Why would you think it "not likely"? Any HD camcorder with an HDMI output allows this; all you need is something like a BlackMagic Intensity card to capture the footage live. Of course, that means being tethered to a computer, but how else would you expect to capture uncompressed HD? :thumbsup:

Ian-T

01-06-2009, 07:07 PM

I think Barry Ian was referring directly to the cam's hard drive. And i agree...that's not likely.

Alan Bradley

01-06-2009, 07:43 PM

What an exciting time we are in right now! The brink...we are on the brink. Now if I could just finish that script!

Ian Slessor

01-06-2009, 07:51 PM

Why would you think it "not likely"? Any HD camcorder with an HDMI output allows this; all you need is something like a BlackMagic Intensity card to capture the footage live. Of course, that means being tethered to a computer, but how else would you expect to capture uncompressed HD? :thumbsup:

Cool.

I did not know that.

Very nice.:thumbup:

ian

:)

filmmaker's gang

01-06-2009, 11:52 PM

but how else would you expect to capture uncompressed HD? :thumbsup:maybe not so far.. what about the cineform.. http://www.vimeo.com/1082016

Barry_Green

01-07-2009, 09:46 AM

That's not uncompressed. It uses cineform compression.

Matt Sconce

01-08-2009, 09:14 AM

I just picked up a Canon HV30 with a Handy35 adapter and 50mm f2 Nikon SLR lens and a Manfrotto 701 tripod. I already have Aspect HD so it is easy for me to pull down on capture, and I wanted to have the ability to archive tape of my daughter without having to download to computer unless I wanted to. The solid state seems great but I miss the ability to shoot something like a christmas party with the family and just take the tape out and store it in a nice cool place. No hard drive space, and a nice way to store family videos, but also the 24p ability and dof to allow me to start filming some shorts again.

Some of these videos of the HV30 in action sold me. I got it for 533.00 new from www.buydig.com (http://www.buydig.com)

http://www.vimeo.com/1415388

http://www.vimeo.com/431500 (http://www.vimeo.com/431500)

http://www.vimeo.com/756506 (http://www.vimeo.com/756506)

http://www.vimeo.com/1041492

http://www.vimeo.com/1659093

Matt Sconce

01-08-2009, 01:28 PM

The final nail in the coffin that led me to buy the HV30 was this short film shot on a stock HV20 with no 35mm adapter.

http://vimeo.com/1333375?pg=embed&sec=1333375 (http://vimeo.com/1333375?pg=embed&sec=1333375)

OSV

01-09-2009, 02:31 PM

The solid state seems great but I miss the ability to shoot something like a christmas party with the family and just take the tape out and store it in a nice cool place.

you can't go wrong for $533, but it's only fair to mention that you can shoot directly to sd cards, just like you can with tape, and the cards take up a heck of a lot less space than tape does... in fact, you can copy the entire file structure over to hdd, then back it up to another sd card, and still never approach the storage overhead that you have with tape.

still, if somebody had told me back in the hi8 days that this is where we'd be in 2009, i would have found it hard to believe.

at this rate, it won't be long before solid state memory is cheaper than hard drives.