35mm Adapter Shootout

[Joseph Stunzi]

Hey all,

Next month, I will be shooting a 35mm depth-of-field adapter comparison test. This will be produced by my production company, IENCE. The goal is to shoot with the newest revisions of the M2, Extreme/Elite, Ultimate, Blade, Brevis, Cinemek G35, and a few others. Not to mention the original P&S Technik mini35 that inspired this entire industry.

The goal is to test light loss, resolution, edge-to-edge sharpness, workflow, and provide an overall comparison of these nifty little devices.

If you have any setup suggestions, test footage suggestions, basically any suggestions at all... please feel free to contact me via PM or email. Also if I'm forgetting an adapter that you'd like to see include, please contact me as well.

And be on the lookout for this test footage being released in February!

Regards,
Joseph Stunzi

[nantnee]

hows it going with the shootout?

[Joseph Stunzi]

I'm finishing up a jib test currently... so after that's done it's on to this 35mm DOFA test. Challenge is getting all the different test charts, test equipment, etc together. I'm also going to try to get a bunch of the newer indie adapters in the mix. Like the RNG and some of the other ones out there for the smaller cameras. That way it's truly a comprehensive test.

[SPZ]

Looking forward to read it!

[shoook]

How many different cameras are you using?

[Joseph Stunzi]

HVX and a EX-3 okay with everyone?
The more cameras... the more testing I have to do unfortunately.

I would do HVX200A, HPX170, EX-3, HV20, and maybe the Canon XH-A1. But that's a lot more charts, scene setups, and the works to do sad as it is! I would put the HV20 in there for the small new indie adapters and what not.

However since there's no cash involved... this test comes second to some other shoots I have going. But don't worry. You'll see it soon enough.

I'm waiting on some new adapters to be released (Redrock micro M2 encore and Cinevate MP.2) as well.

And maybe... just maybe there'll be some relays in the mix too! :)

[nantnee]

I would like a canon xh-a1, red, hmc-150, ex1/3, hvx 200, hpx-170, sony v1/z1, hv20/30/40 and this guy:

http://www.mediacollege.com/equipment/hitachi/images/vme555la-01.jpg

[Joseph Stunzi]

RED? That's pointless right now.

[USLatin]

Good luck staying sane Joseph, and thanks in advance :beer:

[ecking]

... and this guy:

http://www.mediacollege.com/equipment/hitachi/images/vme555la-01.jpg

Finally, a good camera.

[trez]

Joseph! This is great news. The right moment to do such comparison! This is gonna be sticky...
If you have enough time (and good weather) I'd suggest:
1. shooting some resolution charts so that people can compare e2e sharpness
2. doing it with different camera lens aperture values, so we can see how it affects the e2e (all in all this is what ultimately determines the light loss)
3. shooting non-flipped as well - there are some mixed opinions about the flips reducing CA. Also, it would be nice to compare the light loss of the flip vs non-flip - people say flips loose hardly any light, but with most adapters you have to zoom to a different extent to get the proper frame size when shooting flipped vs non-flipped, which might affect the overall light loss.
4. shooting sky at different shutter speed and 35mm lens aperture to check for gg pattern in the footage
5. shooting some tree branches against sky for CA... or maybe not - we should be able to tell the CA from resolution chart...
6. don't forget about 150/170... if you have any of them
7. last, but not least - shoot some nice girls :)

Can't wait to watching the footage...

[mvansomeren]

Joseph, who will be setting up all of these adapters? Will it be you?

The reason I ask is that it takes some time and practice with adapters to set them up properly and get the best performance from them. The test would be much more valuable if and experienced user of each adapter set did the set up on their respective adapter. It is so easy to make a mistake the first time out that it could yield results that are not truly representative of the adapters capabilities. Since many people will likely use your shootout to make the all important decision of "which adapter to buy", it's important that you show the best and worse of each adapter while ensuring that the results are not compromized by inexperience.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Joseph, who will be setting up all of these adapters? Will it be you?

The reason I ask is that it takes some time and practice with adapters to set them up properly and get the best performance from them. The test would be much more valuable if and experienced user of each adapter set did the set up on their respective adapter. It is so easy to make a mistake the first time out that it could yield results that are not truly representative of the adapters capabilities. Since I many people will likely use your shootout to make the all important decision of "which adapter to buy", it's important that you show the best and worse of each adapter while ensuring that the results are not compromized by inexperience.

I'm an experienced Brevis, M2, and Letus user. And I think along with my background research that I should be able to setup each adapter just fine. But I do get your point and will make sure to add a disclaimer in there somewhere.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Joseph! This is great news. The right moment to do such comparison! This is gonna be sticky...
If you have enough time (and good weather) I'd suggest:
1. shooting some resolution charts so that people can compare e2e sharpness
2. doing it with different camera lens aperture values, so we can see how it affects the e2e (all in all this is what ultimately determines the light loss)
3. shooting non-flipped as well - there are some mixed opinions about the flips reducing CA. Also, it would be nice to compare the light loss of the flip vs non-flip - people say flips loose hardly any light, but with most adapters you have to zoom to a different extent to get the proper frame size when shooting flipped vs non-flipped, which might affect the overall light loss.
4. shooting sky at different shutter speed and 35mm lens aperture to check for gg pattern in the footage
5. shooting some tree branches against sky for CA... or maybe not - we should be able to tell the CA from resolution chart...
6. don't forget about 150/170... if you have any of them
7. last, but not least - shoot some nice girls :)

Can't wait to watching the footage...

Way to add more to the variables! I think I'm shooting 200 and EX3 and that's it for now. Some of the adapter companies only want to loan their units for a very brief amount of time and that doesn't leave a lot of room for extra camera play!

I will be reviewing workflow as well as build quality. Doing some cool tests such as shooting in a cold room to test for operational limits. And perhaps somehow shooting in an incubator to test for the other end of their operational limits. In regards to workflow, I will be talking about each adapter's support solutions for mounting their adapter. You'll for sure get a detailed writeup showing how each individual adapter was setup with each camera... including Z-number and other pertinent settings.

There will definitely be resolution charts, some scene setups (sky, nice girls, etc.), as well as light loss calculation. It's important to calculate each adapter's actual light loss as well as the total light loss due to zooming in.

I also hope to be using some loaner equipment from Omnitek for more detailed image analysis.

I'll be filming a "Behind the Scenes" video documenting every second of the test for validation if needed. I also will be capturing everything to ProRes 422 using an AJA ioHD and a CalDigit HDOne drive.



Oh and one more thing. When I first release the footage, it's not going to be labeled. I want everyone to have a little fun trying to match up each adapter to it's footage! A mindgame if you will.

[mvansomeren]

I'm an experienced Brevis, M2, and Letus user. And I think along with my background research that I should be able to setup each adapter just fine. But I do get your point and will make sure to add a disclaimer in there somewhere.


Well, I wish you luck on this almost impossible task. The possible combinations of cameras to adapters alone is staggering. For example, we all know that the EX1 has special challenges when it comes to adapters. Some adapter mfgrs. have made optimization kits, other have not. Testing an non-optimized adapter with only the EX1 for example, will cause some to cry foul because they know that other cameras, such as the XH-A1, HVX200a, etc., may not have those challenges and would likely result in a different outcome. I'm sure you have a plan of attack. :thumbup:

[trez]

Way to add more to the variables! I think I'm shooting 200 and EX3 and that's it for now.

200 is fine.


Some of the adapter companies only want to loan their units for a very brief amount of time and that doesn't leave a lot of room for extra camera play!

I understand. Good you have both Panny and Sony for testing.


I will be reviewing workflow as well as build quality. Doing some cool tests such as shooting in a cold room to test for operational limits. And perhaps somehow shooting in an incubator to test for the other end of their operational limits.

Wow. This is going to be the serious testing! Excellent...


In regards to workflow, I will be talking about each adapter's support solutions for mounting their adapter. You'll for sure get a detailed writeup showing how each individual adapter was setup with each camera... including Z-number and other pertinent settings.

You seem to have it all thought out pretty well... Any chance you're gonna shoot non-flipped as well? Would be nice to bust (or confirm) those myths about reduced CA due to longer distance between the adapter focal plane and camera lens when using flip. By the way - during his recent tests Philip Bloom was unable to focus EX1 on the Blade GG at all when using non-flip tube...
And please, don't forget about Blade RR2...


There will definitely be resolution charts, some scene setups (sky, nice girls, etc.), as well as light loss calculation.

Cool! And please (once again) - shoot with different camera lens aperture settings (say, from wide open up to f4.0). This would make the comparison fair - the manufacturers specify the nominal light loss of the adapter, but in real life you usually have to stop down the camera lens to some extent to get good e2e. This is very important information IMO.


It's important to calculate each adapter's actual light loss as well as the total light loss due to zooming in.
I also hope to be using some loaner equipment from Omnitek for more detailed image analysis.

Brilliant! You're very well prepared. Are you gonna compare the light loss with 35mm lens stopped down, too (f.ex. at f4.0)? This would be fair, as f.ex. Brevis is often said to be non-linear (when opening 35mm lens wide it doesn't let more light through - instead it increases diffusion, which sounds like another myth)


I'll be filming a "Behind the Scenes" video documenting every second of the test for validation if needed. I also will be capturing everything to ProRes 422 using an AJA ioHD and a CalDigit HDOne drive.

I'm really impressed. This is the first time dvxuser community will have the opportunity to truly compare all these stuff. It's so hard to take conscious purchase/upgrade decisions these days.


Oh and one more thing. When I first release the footage, it's not going to be labeled. I want everyone to have a little fun trying to match up each adapter to it's footage! A mindgame if you will.

Can't wait...

[TheRealMe]

Oh and one more thing. When I first release the footage, it's not going to be labeled. I want everyone to have a little fun trying to match up each adapter to it's footage! A mindgame if you will.


Love this!! A "blind test" of some sort should remove some of the fanboys comments that we sometimes see around those tests! At least, until you tell us which is which ;-)

[smithy]

Sounds like a great idea...it is long overdue to have a comparison done between all the improvements over the year. I too would like to see the Canon XH-A1 in the mix since there are a lot of users that own this camera. Along with the HVX200 and the EX1. But also you might try the old DVX100 for those who still haven't jumped in HD yet. In addition..i would like to see how the adapters run on extreme low light conditions(IE using only candlelight), as well as wide angle (IE 24mm or wider). Even a 10.5 or 16mm fisheye will be great.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Keep the comments coming guys. This test will consume my life for quite some time. So don't give me too much to do! I'll see about an A1. But that's it. EX3, HVX200, and A1.

I'll be shooting using Zeiss ZF Prime lenses... and maybe some Nikon Zooms. There are so many variables, that you'll have to take everything found with a grain of salt really. I'm also going to try to get my hands on an ARRI Ultra prime or two (85mm and 35mm). However not all adapters in the test have PL mounts. Anyway... there'll be plenty of charts as well as pretty images.

If anyone is in the Atlanta area, feel free to hit me up to talk!

For those of you asking, flipped vs nonflipped will be considered.



And keep the ideas coming.

[USLatin]

Will you be performing the bash your director's head with the adapter test? Though I guess a vibration test will suffice. :)

How are you going to document all of this? How about an HV20 and posting a timelapse, so that people can appreciate how much f$ing work you'll be doing.

[SPZ]

Thanks, Joseph! 35mm adapters are here to stay, and this will be a very valuable and important ressource for years to come... Please make sure to test the shutter speed limit of the adapters, also! Some of them, like the Brevis have an adjustable motor that can be tweaked to increase speed! How far can you push it?

[Joseph Stunzi]

Will you be performing the bash your director's head with the adapter test? Though I guess a vibration test will suffice. :)

How are you going to document all of this? How about an HV20 and posting a timelapse, so that people can appreciate how much f$ing work you'll be doing.

I thought about the HV20 but like I said... add the HV20 and you then add that much more work with the guy. Definitely there'll be a timelapse or something of the sort. Maybe using a Canon 5D2... or even a Nikon D400 (shhhhhh)

We'll have to wait and see about details. Everything will be released in a PDF that details workflow and collected data. Think of it as a semi-scientific publication.

[astigmatic]

i would do the hv20 instead of the A1. They are pretty much close in terms of quality, however atleast this way you will be seeing how these adapters work on both large and small cameras(testing the flexibility).. instead of just large.. And the way technology is evolving, it won't be too long before adapters will be relegated to the domain of the small b-cam.

[Dino]

If I were King(and doing the incredible hard work and logistics--and thankfully I'm not), I would just use two cameras, the EX3 and HPX300. Both are full raster, so will show the difference in sharpness between adapters. To me, this test isn't about the cameras, it's about adapter sharpness, light loss, edge to edge, CA, and physical differences.

I would, of course, shoot a wedge chart with each camera wide open with taking lenses that are known to be sharp edge to edge, with good contrast(chip chart or DSC Chroma Du Monde chart) and MTF wide open.

I think that if an adapter has good sharpness and edge to edge and contrast with full raster cameras, it is safe to assume they will look good with lower resolution cameras--if the achromat doesn't negatively affect the result.

I'm sure whatever Joseph does will be valuable.

[mvansomeren]

If I were King(and doing the incredible hard work and logistics--and thankfully I'm not), I would just use two cameras, the EX3 and HPX300. Both are full raster, so will show the difference in sharpness between adapters. To me, this test isn't about the cameras, it's about adapter sharpness, light loss, edge to edge, CA, and physical differences.

I would, of course, shoot a wedge chart with each camera wide open with taking lenses that are known to be sharp edge to edge, with good contrast(chip chart or DSC Chroma Du Monde chart) and MTF wide open.

I think that if an adapter has good sharpness and edge to edge and contrast with full raster cameras, it is safe to assume they will look good with lower resolution cameras--if the achromat doesn't negatively affect the result.

I'm sure whatever Joseph does will be valuable.


I agree that from a scientific standpoint, that makes sense. However, I think people want to see how an adapter works on "their" camera. From a real-world standpoint, it makes more sense to test them on cameras that more people are likely to own. It's probably safe to say that more people own HVX200, 170, XHA1, HV20, 30, etc., than the HPX300. Hey, if Joseph can do it all, great. But if not, then IMO the test would be valuable to more people if the more mainstream cameras are used. This discusion is probably moot, as I believe that Joseph has already decided which cameras he will use.

Besides, what happens when a camera like the EX1 doesn't have good edge to edge sharpness with a particular adapter? Do other camera owners then assume that their lower resolution camera also wont? We alreadly know from experience that this is not the case. What if that happens with a HPX300?what conclusions should other camera owners draw from that test? Again, this is just my opinion, but this shootout would be more valuable if it appeals more towards the masses as opposed to those that own the higher end cameras. Best case would, of course, be to cover both.

[Dino]

I understand your points, I just think adapter resolution differences shot with an HVX200 are not going to be as obvious, although Joseph will have an EX1 for that.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Yup that's what the EX-3 is there for!

And like Jeff said, this test is about the adapters not the cameras. I'm going to have a HVX and a EX-3. If you want to see each adapter on your own camera, then please PM me and we can arrange something for the small price of $500. Okay I'm only kidding about the price... but the funny accented voice inside my head made it a lot cooler sounding. I'm not going to go out and rent a bunch of cameras just to show the differences between an adapter on a A1 and a H1. Or something silly like that.

I can't run these through their paces properly if I spend all my time testing them on a slew of cameras. Zacuto and I produced the Great Camera Shootout (although it had its flaws) for a reason! (and hopefully down the road there will be a third version of that test). However the point of considering smaller cameras is something I might just do simply because I feel with the coming RED Scarlet and what not.... we all have to start thinking about using our "brains." (okay that was too easy).

The only adapter I will be renting is the Mini35 and perhaps the Pro35 for the EX-3. But that's it. I'm considering looking at relays as an addition to this test... but in no way will I be comparing a EX-3 with 1/2 inch Letus relay to a EX-3 with a M2 on it or something like that. You'll get the comparison of all the adapters mounted traditionally. Then a separate comparison of the relays to the nonrelay option with their respective adapter. I'm not going to sit there and tell you if the Letus relay works with the SGBlade and what not. Because I feel these relays were designed to be used with a specific adapter... not your adapter necessarily. And if you want to save money... sell your adapter and buy the proper one. Also, I will be testing what I'm provided. If I'm only provided with one RotoRazor by Wayne... that's what I'm testing. So don't get picky unless you want to help a brotha out and ship some ground glass ova! Off the soap box now.

---

You're getting a proper comparison of 7-8 adapters:
Redrock M2e, Brevis MP.2, Letus Ultimate, Letus Elite, SGBlade, Cinemek G35, P&S Technik Mini35

You might be getting a preview of the new relays for 2/3 inch cameras if I can work some magic out:
Cinevate Relay, Letus Pro Relay, Letus Compact Relay, MotionFX

You're getting wedge charts, DSC ChromaDuMonde charts, chip charts all at different camera apertures with the lenses at their sweet spot and wide open.

You're getting proper light loss and optical analysis among other things using an OmniTek waveform system.

You're getting workflow analysis with consideration given to rails/rods systems.

You're getting functionality analysis... seeing if these adapters can stand up to the heat or cold of your shoot.

You're getting to see my beautiful face talk about all of this!

And you're getting some nice scene setups as well.

---

So if there's something I've forgotten whether it be an adapter or a test you'd like to see. Please PM it to me by Friday February 20th (my birthday actually).

If you, your company, your mother's brother's best friend, or anyone else would like to potentially become a sponsor of this amazing shoot... please also let me know. We'll be doing a FreshDV-style advertisement portion in the beginning, middle, and end of the shoot. And I'd love to have you help me do work!

[Smettli]

This is awesome Joseph,
Keep up the good work!

[Joseph Stunzi]

I try I do try!

[astigmatic]

well it's a known issue that small 1/3 cameras like the hv20/30 react different to adapters than do the larger cameras. The edge falloff properties tend to increase. Some adapter companies claim that they fixed it, some try to ignore the issue completely.. so in a way, it is about the adapter... but I'd rather see some sort of shootout sooner than a comprehensive one that's 2months away.

[keeganuhl]

Any timetable for when you think you might be done with the 35mm adapater shootout? I'm looking to purchase soon and wonder if it's worth waiting!

Thanks,
Keegan

[nantnee]

now??

[Joseph Stunzi]

now??

I'm shooting to do this test in May. Reasons for the postponement is to obtain the proper optical testing equipment as well as test some new products that might surface after NAB. Plus! It'd be nice to test all the relays in the mix as well wouldn't it?

[Take_1]

I would love to see the 170 in the shootout ... pleese ... I know begging isn't becoming. But pretty pleeese? :crybaby:

[Joseph Stunzi]

I would love to see the 170 in the shootout ... pleese ... I know begging isn't becoming. But pretty pleeese? :crybaby:

What difference is a 170 going to make comparatively versus a 200? They're both Panasonic. They both record in DVCProHD. They both have 1/3" chips. They have difference lenses and what not... but in my book 170 footage should be comparable to 200 footage. Read up on what Kholi posted about the 200A vs the 170 back when it was first released. If you give me a good reason, I'll try my best to add one in.

[Take_1]

What difference is a 170 going to make comparatively versus a 200? They're both Panasonic. They both record in DVCProHD. They both have 1/3" chips. They have difference lenses and what not... but in my book 170 footage should be comparable to 200 footage. Read up on what Kholi posted about the 200A vs the 170 back when it was first released. If you give me a good reason, I'll try my best to add one in.
Frankly, if it was the 200A instead of the 200 I'd be happy with that I guess. Simply because of the revisions to the camera giving it a cleaner image etc. The 170? Well, because I own one and its always nice to see exactly what you could be getting with it. 170 or 200A I'd be fine either way.

[Barry_Green]

Coming late to this party, but I've got a question for jstunzi... If it's a test of adapters, why would you even have two different cameras involved? For a test to have validity you typically want to minimize as many variables as possible. Having conducted shootouts before, I know how people will ask and beg and plead for more and more to be added, but frankly it seems like the complexity of the test increases by the square of the # of products being compared. So evaluating one product = 1 level of difficulty; comparing two products means it's 4x as difficult, comparing 3 products makes it 9x as difficult, etc...

So... why not pick one camera (maybe an HPX3000 or F950 using the Letus or Brevis relay?) and then compare all the adapters on the same set, same lighting, same camera body, same recording format, etc... and that way, the only differences would be due to the adapters themselves...

[Dino]

why would you even have two different cameras involved? For a test to have validity you typically want to minimize as many variables as possible.

So... why not pick one camera (maybe an HPX3000 or F950 using the Letus or Brevis relay?) and then compare all the adapters on the same set, same lighting, same camera body, same recording format, etc... and that way, the only differences would be due to the adapters themselves...

Barry,

This is similar to what I posted on this thread on February 16, although I was suggesting two cameras, both full raster--EX3 and HPX300. My feeling is that an HVX200 would not be able to resolve sharpness differences between adapters as well as a full raster camera.

This is the same approach that I would suggest with 2/3" cameras, like you I would vote for the HPX3000 with AVC Intra vs. an HPX500.

I don't think using 2/3" cameras and the B4 relays available by May would work because the relay can affect the image and different adapter brands might not be compatible with the B4 relay options.

I just spent half a day testing the Letus B4 Compact relay and while I don't want to get into my preliminary findings yet, the relay could affect the adapter image, and this assumes doing a proper white shading file which is mandatory for 2/3" cameras, as you know.

[Joseph Stunzi]

The 170? Well, because I own one and its always nice to see exactly what you could be getting with it. 170 or 200A I'd be fine either way.

That's what I thought and I totally understand!


Coming late to this party, but I've got a question for jstunzi... If it's a test of adapters, why would you even have two different cameras involved? For a test to have validity you typically want to minimize as many variables as possible.

Barry, I totally get what you're saying here. Having a background in science research, minimizing variables is a common concept to me.

The easiest way to think about this test is actually a combination of tests. One each for 1/3", 1/2" and 2/3" cameras and the adapter options available respectively to each.

However, I do see what you're saying and having the A1 and HVX200A would be redundant and add another variable.



So... why not pick one camera (maybe an HPX3000 or F950 using the Letus or Brevis relay?)

I've yet to see footage with the Cinevate relay. And according to Philip Bloom there is not way to easily attach either of the existent Letus relays to other adapters without modification. However this specific case was in regards to the Letus Pro relay and the Shoot35 SG Blade. So any comparison of relays (Pro35, Cinevate, Letus) would be with the respective adapter they're supposed to be paired with and not the whole gamut unfortuantely.



and then compare all the adapters on the same set, same lighting, same camera body, same recording format, etc... and that way, the only differences would be due to the adapters themselves...

Same set, same lighting, same camera body, and same recording format will be used for each of the "tests." But this will be accompanied by workflow, build, and functionality testing as well.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Barry,

This is similar to what I posted on this thread on February 16, although I was suggesting two cameras, both full raster--EX3 and HPX300. My feeling is that an HVX200 would not be able to resolve sharpness differences between adapters as well as a full raster camera.

This is the same approach that I would suggest with 2/3" cameras, like you I would vote for the HPX3000 with AVC Intra vs. an HPX500.

I don't think using 2/3" cameras and the B4 relays available by May would work because the relay can affect the image and different adapter brands might not be compatible with the B4 relay options.

I just spent half a day testing the Letus B4 Compact relay and while I don't want to get into my preliminary findings yet, the relay could affect the adapter image, and this assumes doing a proper white shading file which is mandatory for 2/3" cameras, as you know.

EX3 and HPX3000 work for ya Jeff?

Read the above post. It's not about cameras that's the hold up... it's about logistics and getting these adapters all together at the same time.

[DavidNJ]

Two questions:

1) Are you recording on the camera or using the HD-SDI output (uncompressed)?

2) Are you shooting a sinusoidal MTF chart? You can get one for free on the web.

[Marduk]

any update on this thread?

Thanks
Ninos-

[Joseph Stunzi]

Two questions:

1) Are you recording on the camera or using the HD-SDI output (uncompressed)?

2) Are you shooting a sinusoidal MTF chart? You can get one for free on the web.

1)... mostlikely ProRes 422 HQ.

2)... yeah I have a MTF chart... gotta love kinkos.

[Marduk]

any update on this.

dying to see the results

thanks

[cheezweezl]

Coming late to this party, but I've got a question for jstunzi... If it's a test of adapters, why would you even have two different cameras involved? For a test to have validity you typically want to minimize as many variables as possible. Having conducted shootouts before, I know how people will ask and beg and plead for more and more to be added, but frankly it seems like the complexity of the test increases by the square of the # of products being compared. So evaluating one product = 1 level of difficulty; comparing two products means it's 4x as difficult, comparing 3 products makes it 9x as difficult, etc...

So... why not pick one camera (maybe an HPX3000 or F950 using the Letus or Brevis relay?) and then compare all the adapters on the same set, same lighting, same camera body, same recording format, etc... and that way, the only differences would be due to the adapters themselves...

there is validity in using ex1 along with the hvx200 or whatever panny cam you choose. it seems that it is trickier to get an adapter to play nice with an ex1 than with most other cams. i think knowing whether or not a given adapter is ex1 friendly and which one is most ex1 friendly is very valuable info.

same goes for the panny cam. maybe one adapter works better with the panny cam than any other adapter.

and since the hvx200/hpx170 and ex1/ex3 are really the major players in this market, both should be represented if the tester is willing.

i am looking forward to the results!!!!

[USLatin]

Joseph... you are fired. :)

[Joseph Stunzi]

Haha.... I figured someone would say that eventually. But if you want a good test... that inclludes B4 relays... it'll be worth the wait!

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

I wouldn't choose ProRes because I see a really heavy degradation in sharpness...

Since you will have a MacPro desktop on set, grab the 422 uncompressed... or you can use the Photoshop and grab only still frames from a Blackmagic or AJA card... at least for the res charts... if you have a laptop with Aja IO use the Photoshop method... for all the rest the ProRes is OK...

[Lenilenapi]

I wouldn't choose ProRes because I see a really heavy degradation in sharpness...
..

What? I thought Pro Res didn't degrade the image at all.
If this is true why does everyone say to render in Pro Res or shift all your HDV or for that matter any Media into Pro Res?

What media are you starting with?
I've been told that rendering or transcoding to Pro Res was fine unless you were shooting in HDCAM SR and then you needed Pro Res HQ.

Sorry if this is the wrong area for this discussion but since it came up.....

- Lenny Levy

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

When I transcode RED footage to prores there is a definite down grade in resolution... I have notice it in AVC-Intra also... you can see it if compare original with prores... the loss is not huge but it is visible... so since we try to measure resolution I thing a still uncompressed is enough...

[USLatin]

Glad to hear you are still on this.

What could you have access to if you went ahead and shot this thing next week?

[Lenilenapi]

Evangelos,

Are you looking at Pro Res or Pro Res HQ?

I would expect a little loss from the RED to ordinary Pro Res. I don't know much about AVC Intra, but that's more of a surprise , esp sinc eyou have to cut it as Pro Res in FCP as I understand it.

What image are you looking at to judge this BTW?

Lenny

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

As I said, if you have a card like BMD or AJA, both allow thru quicklime to grab single frames, either from photoshop or from their applications, this frames are totally uncompressed... since to evaluate, an ISO res chart, all you need is a single frame grabs, I don't see the reason why not to exclude all the "compression" factors...

[Joseph Stunzi]

Glad to hear you are still on this.

What could you have access to if you went ahead and shot this thing next week?

Clarify this statement a little. Are you talking about cameras, adapters, or what? This is a huge logistical nightmare to organize... especially without compensation. I may have to buy/rent some of the adapters since some of the adapter companies aren't so willing to be compared. Not only that... as seen earlier in this thread... everyone wants to see them compared on their camera. All this argument about compression too. I want to see pictures of what you're talking about Evangelos.

I will say this... with the exception of the B4 relays... all of these adapters will be compared on two cameras: EX-3 and HVX200.

You're going to get still images of charts at various settings... and one or two scene setups which you will get video of. It'll be posted to Vimeo and my blog.


And to throw a wrench into the cogs here... I'm not labeling footage initially. So people can give an honest unbiased opinion of the images.

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

All this argument about compression too. I want to see pictures of what you're talking about Evangelos.

You can do it your self... just convert to ProRes HQ a high res image and compare it to the original... its easy... On the other hand if everything is going to be measured in the same way I don't have a problem...

What I'm asking is "scientifically accurate", either you understand it and you do it or you don't...

[Postmaster]

I'm not labeling footage initially. So people can give an honest unbiased opinion of the images.

Smart move Joseph.

And yeah, I´m with Evangelos. Grabing them uncompressed is mandatory to get valid results. It would be a shame after all the work and time you spend, to spoil your efford with lossy codecs.


Frank

[USLatin]

Joseph... screw worrying about the cameras so much. Best case scenario you use a 170 and an EX-1. But one camera will do and in that case it should be the EX-1 for sharpness.

Adapter wise if you have the LEX, Ultimate, M2, M2encore, SGpro, SGblade, G35 and Brevis with their elements then you have them all.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Roberto,

You're forgetting a whole slew of adapters. The P&S Mini35 , M8M 35mm, Handy35, Apefos, RNG35, Twoneil, Ikord, JAG35, ProDof, i-35HD, EnCinema 35... and I'm sure there's a few more.

You're getting an EX-3 and a HVX-200. No HPX170. The HVX-200 is simply in there to show a 1/3" sensor. I don't want the larger optics of the EX series to cause someone to misjudge an adapter for their smaller camera.

Once again, I'm putting my money, time, and effort into this project. So I urge everyone to be patient as I'm providing a slew of information and analysis to you free of charge!

Evangelos... send me an email so we can talk about having your products in the mix.

[Mike Harvey]

You're getting an EX-3 and a HVX-200.

The HVX200 or 200a? Because if it's the 200a, it's the same chips as the HPX170 and HMC150, so it should be an awfully darn similar image.

[Mike Harvey]

I had a thought, does someone want to organize some sort of pool to help Joseph offset his costs? I'm in the market for an adapter for my HMC150, so I'd be happy to chip in something given the service Joseph is performing for all of us.

[Joseph Stunzi]

I had a thought, does someone want to organize some sort of pool to help Joseph offset his costs? I'm in the market for an adapter for my HMC150, so I'd be happy to chip in something given the service Joseph is performing for all of us.

Nah don't worry about that dude.

On the note of the same chip... there are some differences in the images between the HVX-200A and the HPX-170 if I remember correctly. Talk to Kholi Hicks about that one!

[USLatin]

Roberto,

You're forgetting a whole slew of adapters. The P&S Mini35 , M8M 35mm, Handy35, Apefos, RNG35, Twoneil, Ikord, JAG35, ProDof, i-35HD, EnCinema 35... and I'm sure there's a few more.

Well in my humble understanding of what is out there I can say that I have no interest in those. At least the P&S... not at all... never heard of the rest so I am ok with not seeing them in the assumption that they are not popular for a reason. I am sure you know far more about adapters than me so please take my posts only as an encouragement... I don't mean to tell you how to do your shootout.


Once again, I'm putting my money, time, and effort into this project. So I urge everyone to be patient as I'm providing a slew of information and analysis to you free of charge!

I am man! Totally patient and thankful in advance. It just seems that you are biting quite a big bite off the cake... I am simply trying to say to you not to stress over the details if it is giving you gray hair. Again, I don't know about all those adapters you mentioned, but it seems that if you included the ones I listed 90% of the people would be beyond stoked. Just trying to bring up the factor of practicality... since a P&S for example will become practically 100% obsolete with Scarlet S35... not sure if the others are as good as the ones I mentioned... or as affordable...

[Dino]

Well in my humble understanding of what is out there I can say that I have no interest in those. At least the P&S...

... since a P&S for example will become practically 100% obsolete with Scarlet S35... not sure if the others are as good as the ones I mentioned... or as affordable...

Since the RED ONE has been out for awhile now and P+S Pro35's are still very busy in our rental market, I'm not convinced the Scarlett will make it obsolete. The fact that Letus and CInevate now offer 2/3" relay lenses is a sign that there will continue to be a market for 2/3" cameras/35mm adapters, at least in the rental realm for the Pro 35. The Letus and Cinevate options allow ownership to be more likely due to the much lower price point vs. the Pro35 for the multitude of 2/3" cameras in use.

[Lenilenapi]

Hey Dino,

When are we doing our own shootout?
This is week is better than I would like.

Lenny

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Evangelos... send me an email so we can talk about having your products in the mix.

I'm planning to send a demo relay along with a Fiber Screen to Jeff (Dino)...

I believe you are both in SF area... Jeff can hand it over to you...

[dougspice]

I like this idea of releasing the clips "blind". That's a wonderful approach.

[USLatin]

Since the RED ONE has been out for awhile now and P+S Pro35's are still very busy in our rental market, I'm not convinced the Scarlett will make it obsolete. The fact that Letus and CInevate now offer 2/3" relay lenses is a sign that there will continue to be a market for 2/3" cameras/35mm adapters, at least in the rental realm for the Pro 35. The Letus and Cinevate options allow ownership to be more likely due to the much lower price point vs. the Pro35 for the multitude of 2/3" cameras in use.


I can see a market for 2/3" relays!

However, why would you say that the P&S won't become obsolete?

Unless you think 2/3" Scarlet won't happen... it is working already, and it is insanely insane in the membrane as far as I've heard from people that have played with it. So I can see relays renting like mad, but not something like a P&S that costs as much as a camera and a competing adapter.

I don't know if a relay could work with Scarlet Fixed... but you see my point I hope.

[Dino]

I can see a market for 2/3" relays!

However, why would you say that the P&S won't become obsolete?

Unless you think 2/3" Scarlet won't happen... it is working already, and it is insanely insane in the membrane as far as I've heard from people that have played with it. So I can see relays renting like mad, but not something like a P&S that costs as much as a camera and a competing adapter.

I don't know if a relay could work with Scarlet Fixed... but you see my point I hope.

I agree that P+S won't be selling a lot more Pro35's in the years to come, but they will still be entrenched in the rental market. My clients often want a camera that can make an image in the camera, including gammas, detail, matrix, knee, slope and hard clip. They then want to take that finished image and turn it around via a simple, established work flow quickly and efficiently. If the Scarlet can offer in camera processing to the level that other cameras have always done and a workflow that is as convenient as DVCPRO HD or AVC Intra, great.

What works within the time constraints of an indie film for deliverables turnaround, may not work for corporate, or cable/broadcast which tends to be very time sensitive.

Our Letus Ultimate is great because it can work with just about every 1/3", 1/2" and 2/3" camera at an affordable rental rate.

[cheezweezl]

i agree with above. RED is the cat's pajamas image-wise but post is a pain compared to any video format. scarlet will be amazing, but simplicity, reliability, and compatability will keep video cams and 35mm adapters alive.

[USLatin]

I agree that P+S won't be selling a lot more Pro35's in the years to come, but they will still be entrenched in the rental market. My clients often want a camera that can make an image in the camera, including gammas, detail, matrix, knee, slope and hard clip. They then want to take that finished image and turn it around via a simple, established work flow quickly and efficiently. If the Scarlet can offer in camera processing to the level that other cameras have always done and a workflow that is as convenient as DVCPRO HD or AVC Intra, great.

Yes, good point. In this case the affordable cameras like the 300 or 500 would make for a very powerful yet affordable solution. Not sure about their in camera image controls, but with the budget you could always get the 3000 or Sony counterparts or rent one.

Cheeweezl, just want to point out that reliability doesn't seem to be part of your point anymore.

[Dino]

I'm planning to send a demo relay along with a Fiber Screen to Jeff (Dino)...

I believe you are both in SF area... Jeff can hand it over to you...

Evangelos,

I would love to see your relay and Fiber Screen. You could send it to Joseph first, who could send it to me or vice versa. Lenny and I could share it, no problem.

[jsstring]

Did you do the test yet?? Is there any way I can set something to follow this thread so I don't forget about it?

[Lenilenapi]

Evangelos - you can't get it to us immediately can you? We wanted to test B4's early this week. Might be just too fast.

Lenny

[USLatin]

If you click on USER CP (top left) then click on EDIT OPTIONS down towards the middle of the options on the left under the category Settings & Options, then you will see the section called "Default Thread Subscription Mode" there you can select NO E-MAIL NOTIFICATION in the drop down menu. That will subscribe you to threads where you post making them pop up in your User CP when someone posts on the threads. Then when you log on you can just go right to your User CP to see if someone has added to the conversations you are a part of.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Just go to Thread Tools and hit Subscribe

[jsstring]

Ah Thank you

[USLatin]

Just go to Thread Tools and hit Subscribe

U tryin' to make me look bad? :badputer:


:thumbsup:

[Evangelos Achillopoulos]

Evangelos - you can't get it to us immediately can you? We wanted to test B4's early this week. Might be just too fast.

Lenny

I believe that I will be able to send the mount exchangeable version (Rev3) by the end of this month...

[Joseph Stunzi]

Well in my humble understanding of what is out there I can say that I have no interest in those. At least the P&S... not at all... never heard of the rest so I am ok with not seeing them in the assumption that they are not popular for a reason. I am sure you know far more about adapters than me so please take my posts only as an encouragement... I don't mean to tell you how to do your shootout.

The thing is... it's a shootout. And if it's to be a detailed scientific test as well as a comprehensive one, I can't simply begin without approaching all of the companies out there making adapters. I'm approaching this as a shootout... not as a shootout for DVXusers. Our community has a tendency of repeating what other users say continually. I bet most users on here would say the Letus Ultimate or the SG Blade is the best. That's simply because of the mass of posts and footage released about these adapters. Owning 4 adapters myself... I'm not going to allow myself to fall into that trap so easily!




Again, I don't know about all those adapters you mentioned, but it seems that if you included the ones I listed 90% of the people would be beyond stoked. Just trying to bring up the factor of practicality... since a P&S for example will become practically 100% obsolete with Scarlet S35... not sure if the others are as good as the ones I mentioned... or as affordable...

I personally don't hold RED in very high esteem. Their form of hype marketing has become an annoyance to me. Their fanboys preach without knowing what they're talking about. And their products continually have delays. Not only that... they don't finish one product before moving onto the next. I'd like to see the RED ONE firmware improved upon and truly solid before they jump the gun to these new Scarlets and Epics. Adapters, relays, ENG cameras, and film cameras aren't going anywhere anytime soon. I'll gladly challenge any RED fanboy to a bet if they disagree.



Since the RED ONE has been out for awhile now and P+S Pro35's are still very busy in our rental market, I'm not convinced the Scarlett will make it obsolete. The fact that Letus and CInevate now offer 2/3" relay lenses is a sign that there will continue to be a market for 2/3" cameras/35mm adapters, at least in the rental realm for the Pro 35. The Letus and Cinevate options allow ownership to be more likely due to the much lower price point vs. the Pro35 for the multitude of 2/3" cameras in use.

I agree with Dino. However until I see the optics on these relays first hand... (meaning not on the NAB show floor)... I'd prefer to not elaborate. They certainly do open the use of 35mm DOFAs with relays to a lower-end market.


I like this idea of releasing the clips "blind". That's a wonderful approach.

THANKS!


However, why would you say that the P&S won't become obsolete?

Unless you think 2/3" Scarlet won't happen... it is working already, and it is insanely insane in the membrane as far as I've heard from people that have played with it. So I can see relays renting like mad, but not something like a P&S that costs as much as a camera and a competing adapter.

Of course you're hearing this from RED fanboys... or people that saw it at the RED party at NAB. Not people using it in the field. The P&S has the advantage of build quality. Drop any other adapter in the field... and it's gone. Drop a P&S and it's still good to go.



Cheeweezl, just want to point out that reliability doesn't seem to be part of your point anymore.

How is it not a valid part of his point?

[Tracey Lee]

So how much is that P&S camera? It has a CMOS with a global shutter...just a tidbit of info I came across.

[Michael B. McGee]

i don't know what i'm more excited for: Christmas 2010 or the results of this shoot-out?

[Joseph Stunzi]

So how much is that P&S camera? It has a CMOS with a global shutter...just a tidbit of info I came across.

We're not talking about the P&S camera... which for future reference is the SI-2K which shot Slumdog Millionaire. We're talking about the P&S Mini 35 and P&S Pro 35 the oldest and most reputable 35mm adapters on the market.

[Joseph Stunzi]

i don't know what i'm more excited for: Christmas 2010 or the results of this shoot-out?

I'm glad you excited!

[USLatin]

Build 18 seems to have quieted the complaint section of the RedUser forum quite a bit. The fail boot ups, blue screens, most issues main issues seem to have vanished. There may be some left but I wouldn't know.

One more thing I don't know about is whether the P&S will go away... one thing I do know is that there isn't any sort of comparison between the look you get from an HPX3000 and a Red One. Sure there are lots of fanboys leading people with lesser understanding astray, such as myself. However... a successful S35 Scarlet (notice my choice for the following word) would do away with the need for all other cameras that costed less than a full S35 Scarlet package.... (not done with the thought) for all projects that can handle the workflow and/or don't have time constraints for post.

I am glad to hear that there are tons more adapters out there that I don't know of, and that you will be testing them. It just sounds like such a phenomenally huge undertaking that I was trying to "help" you out by getting you to be done with it. However it seems you are on a greater mission and that is just great for all of us. I hope you can get it done soon and that you are enjoying it as much as I hope and think you are.

Michael, keep in mind those are also phenomenally expensive and would survive a nuclear holocaust. They are a whole other breed. As far as I know they were never updated and still lose a lot of light, though they work great with more sensitive cameras.

[jeremyisHORROR]

That's pretty funny. I'm not going to lie.

[cheezweezl]

i don't know what i'm more excited for: Christmas 2010 or the results of this shoot-out?

the question is, which of these events will happen first :happy:

sorry stunzi. just breaking balls. all in good fun.

[Tarkovsky]

hello,

any update on this shootout? :(

[USLatin]

Yea... by the time poor Joseph gets around to this we'll all be shooting great 24fps on DSLRs or even RAW with FF35 Scarlets. :)

Hope all is great with you Joseph. :thumbsup:

[Joseph Stunzi]

Thanks Roberto.

If anyone is interested... I'll do a quick side by side with the M2e, the Brevis, and the Ultimate. For the time being, the production cost of this shootout including time, proper test charts, and logistics of getting an extensive range of adapters outweighed my need to film my current two projects unfortunately.

I will update and say that... I contacted lots of the smaller adapter companies iKord and others similar... and Jag35 was the only one willing to participate in the test without my either paying for shipping costs or buying a unit and then returning it.

So that limits this test down to... Ultimate, Elite/Extreme, Blade, G35, M2e, Brevis MP.2, and P&S Technik all being tested on only the HVX-200 and the EX-1/3. Test situations will be well-lit charts and a sample scene setup that shows bokeh rendition, some sort of wood grain, and obviously some interesting elements in it.

Let me launch my blog first... and I'll try to get this rolling for you guys!

p.s. 35mm DOFAs will be around for a while! At least as long as VDSLRs shoot to crappy codecs!

[USLatin]

p.s. 35mm DOFAs will be around for a while! At least as long as VDSLRs shoot to crappy codecs!

Indeed. Or until there is a place where you can get super fast and affordable 2/3" glass for Scarlet, once it comes out. Even then, say all of the best happens with DSLRs and Red, everyone's dreams come true, then adapters and older ProSumer cameras would drop in price according to demand. In which case they would remain an option and they would still deliver gorgeous imagery in proper hands.

Good to hear you are busy. Good luck with the projects and your blog!

If you feel like having some fun, I'd say shoot what you have. If you can get a Blade with those three I think you would please a LOT of people with a slammer than EPIC sized shootout. :beer:

[Joseph Stunzi]

Here's what I'll do... I'll make a short... shot entirely from my porch... using these adapters. I live in a sketchy house... in the middle of the hood... in the 5th poorest county in the United States. Here's the catch, I'll film it with each adapter identically... and let you all compare the results?

If that's going to happen... I need some people to email Wayne and Dennis to see if they'll provide demo units. I have a Brevis... but it's pre-MP.1/.2... so I dunno if that made major changes or not. Wayne said he'd be in. And I'm pretty sure Jon at Cinemek would be too.

[USLatin]

Here's what I'll do... I'll make a short... shot entirely from my porch... using these adapters. I live in a sketchy house... in the middle of the hood... in the 5th poorest county in the United States. Here's the catch, I'll film it with each adapter identically... and let you all compare the results?


How about filming inside? :huh:

[Joseph Stunzi]

Can do brosef... I'll just do it all about my house.

Can you send those emails to Dennis and Wayne then?

[USLatin]

I would love to but I am sure they would like to hear from you directly if they are sending you gear.

[Joseph Stunzi]

I've been in touch with them... some more support is always welcome though!

[Joseph Stunzi]

You've all asked for it... and it's being shot this Sunday! SG Blade, Brevis, Extreme, Ultimate, M2e, mini35... all I'm waiting on is a Cinemek G35! Anyone know Jon's cell?

[Postmaster]

Cool, can´t wait.

Frank

[USLatin]

Wow! Nice line up! Should be a heck of a lot of work, but very cool to finally see such a large group lined up side by side!What tests are you planning to shoot? Do you have charts?

[Michael B. McGee]

i don't know what i'm more excited for: Christmas 2010 or the results of this shoot-out?


OK, I'm taking bets on this shootout. the over/under for the shootout results is set at July 4, 2010. I'm still excited, but at least I know Christmas 2010 is coming.

place your bets, folks!!!!!

[Finnegan]

I'm really excited to see an extensive and in depth comparison of adapters since when I bought mine I pretty much conducted all the research on my own, as I'm sure did everyone else who has bought a 35mm adapter. My question is - by the time you finish producing the results of your study do you think that they will have become dated in any way? New elements and gear is always coming out for this pieces of technology?

[Joseph Stunzi]

I'm really excited to see an extensive and in depth comparison of adapters since when I bought mine I pretty much conducted all the research on my own, as I'm sure did everyone else who has bought a 35mm adapter. My question is - by the time you finish producing the results of your study do you think that they will have become dated in any way? New elements and gear is always coming out for this pieces of technology?

Any test like this will be quickly dated yes. The information will still be useful to some. With respect to DSLRs? DOFAs still have a place... Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, no one has gotten it right. Take it or leave it. I'm providing the information.... you make your own decision.

[Mike Harvey]

I'm just grateful you're doing it.

[Chris Light]

I'm really excited to see an extensive and in depth comparison of adapters since when I bought mine I pretty much conducted all the research on my own, as I'm sure did everyone else who has bought a 35mm adapter. My question is - by the time you finish producing the results of your study do you think that they will have become dated in any way? New elements and gear is always coming out for this pieces of technology?


not relevant to this, but i've been meaning to say ....awesome logo you have. love it.

[Finnegan]

not relevant to this, but i've been meaning to say ....awesome logo you have. love it.

Haha, thanks a lot. I have the lollipop all over my website, business cards, and signatures. I figure that if people don't remember me as a cinematographer they might remember me as "the lollipop guy"!

[Tarkovsky]

Any test like this will be quickly dated yes. The information will still be useful to some. With respect to DSLRs? DOFAs still have a place... Nikon, Canon, Panasonic, no one has gotten it right. Take it or leave it. I'm providing the information.... you make your own decision.

Is your test still happening?