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Green Hornet
12-15-2008, 09:36 PM
I am starting to see advertisements looking for HD camera men.
In the ad, they say "NOT HDV".

Would you be comfortable responding if you had the HMC150?

What would you describe to someone not knowing, that your camera is HD?

If the HMC150 is HD (Because it shoots 1920x1080) then could you also respond if you had a Canon HF100 ($700 camera that fits in your palm that also shoots 1080p)

PerroneFord
12-15-2008, 09:45 PM
The difference is audio and manual lens.

You can plug in pro mics and give them power. They can't.

You can make manual shutter, iris, and focus adjustments, and they can't.

If you're worried, buy some rails and a matte box, post a pic with you and the cam, and you're all set!

Mike Harvey
12-15-2008, 09:53 PM
Technically, anything over 480i/p is "HD"

BUT, I would be comfortable responding with my HMC150. And if they ask the format... it's AVCCam... a new tapeless format that shoots 1920x1080 at 60i, 30p, and 24p.

Honestly, if they're requesting no HDV because it's 1440, then they need to also rule out DVCProHD because it's 1280. That's kinda dumb. That rules out pretty much every 3-chip camera in the sub $10k market except for the EX-1/-3. In which case they should just ask for the EX-1/-3.

PerroneFord
12-15-2008, 10:01 PM
Honestly, if they're requesting no HDV because it's 1440, then they need to also rule out DVCProHD because it's 1280. That's kinda dumb. That rules out pretty much every 3-chip camera in the sub $10k market except for the EX-1/-3. In which case they should just ask for the EX-1/-3.

They'd also be ruling out the F900 and Varicam (not the newer models) which shot 1440x1080 HDCam and 720p. And both those cams with lenses were pushing $80-100k.

HDV is a no-no for broadcast in many situations, and also by saying no HDV you sort of weed out the Joe with the $500 handycam and $50 tripod.

TimurCivan
12-15-2008, 10:26 PM
I'll still take a varicam over almost any other HDcamera....

ecking
12-15-2008, 10:29 PM
HDV is a no-no for broadcast in many situations, and also by saying no HDV you sort of weed out the Joe with the $500 handycam and $50 tripod.

All of the things you said apply to avchd, avccam or not. The same reasons some people are iffy about hdv are true about avc, don't let advertising make you think different, being mpeg4 does not fix all of it's structural problems.

Chris Light
12-15-2008, 10:38 PM
well, the "no HDV" in this case could just mean that they don't want to deal with tape?...the ad was for a cameraman....the editors could be picky....just a thought.

Postmaster
12-15-2008, 11:22 PM
405 line black-and-white

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Bbc_marconi_emi_hdtv_117667348_639ef37dd0_o.jpg/250px-Bbc_marconi_emi_hdtv_117667348_639ef37dd0_o.jpg

....just saying.

by the way, the French where broadcasting 819 line @ 50 Hz (that would even be HD as we know it today) since 1956.
The Russians had even a 1125 (!) lines system in 1958 - but was used for military stuff only.

Frank

Justyn
12-16-2008, 06:46 AM
Frank.. that's interesting stuff there...


Peronne had a good idea with the rails and such. I remember that funny story about the show 24 and how a "little" when augmented with a big mattebox was now the "big cam" to Sutherland's eyes.



I also know one thing hornet about most of those adds. Most of them are just phishing for info. They are looking to find out who's doing what in the area, with what equipment, and at what cost. Don't be surpised if you get the Hollywood NO. There's tons of people pitching projects that don't actually exist to get valuable market info. I see it all the time down here in Orlando and it just sucks. Just be weary of dealing off an add. The few times I've gotten those jobs.. some have been good, and some have been the worst in terms of getting paid. Literally came down to sending legal action noticies. Our business is full of crooks and shysters.


One other way to showcase your camera, is to showcase youself. Send any of these people a clip or demo or something to show your professional skills and that will speak volumes.

Zak Forsman
12-16-2008, 08:00 AM
many broadcasters like the discovery channel have specific limitations on how much HDV footage can be used in a program. under 30% i think. this may be the reason why they don't want HDV.

Ed Kishel
12-16-2008, 08:16 AM
HDV is a no-no for broadcast in many situations

that's something I read allot- so how do HD shows like: Deadliest Catch, Dirty Jobs and Mythbusters get away with shooting HDV? In fact, the show Modern Marvels from the History Channel did a special on our company, and we shot most of our footage on the Sony V1U and sent them the raw tapes.

PerroneFord
12-16-2008, 08:21 AM
They make allowances for shows in which there is significant risk of a camera being destroyed, or severely damaged. Or so I've read. Makes sense when you look at the shows where small cams are used. Didn't the BTS on Deadliest Catch mention they went through something like 20 or 30 cameras that season? Not the place to be taking F900Rs!

Everts
12-16-2008, 08:48 AM
HD cameramen = Horn Dogs perhaps

Kwan
12-16-2008, 08:51 AM
HD is not a Single Format, Or File, Or Size, or Anything.

01- What Is HIgh-Definition Video?
High-Definition is video which provides greater image clarity (resolution) than Standard-Def Video.

02- What Are Common HD Format?
1- I-Frame Compression: DVCPRO HD, ProRes 422, HDCAM, HDCAM SR.
2- GOP Compression (Group Of Pictures): HDV, XDCAM HD & EX, AVCHD, MPEG-2 HD

03- What Are Common File Storage Size?

File Format ----------- Data Rate P/Sec --------- File Size P/H
HDV ------------------ 3.75 MB/Sec ------------- 13 GB
DVCPRO HD --------- 15MB/Sec ----------------- 48 GB
ProRess 422 --------- 18.125 B/Sec ------------- 65 GB
ProRess 422 HQ ----- 27.5 MB/Sec -------------- 99 GB
XD CAM HD ---------- 4.375 MB/Sec ------------ 16 GB
XD CAM EX ---------- 4.375 MB/Sec ------------ 16 GB
HD CAM ~ ----------- 25-50 MB/Sec ------------ 90 - 180 GB
HD CAM SR ~ ------- 50-100 MB/Sec ---------- 180 - 360 GB

04- What Are Common HD Image Size?

DV 720 X 480
HD 1280 X 720
HD 1280 X 1080
Film 2048 X 1556
Red 4096 X 2304
(Note: As Image Size Increase, Render Times Also Increase)

05- What Is Progressive Virus Interlaced?
Both SD and HD digital video is composed of lines of pixels.
There are two ways these lines are displayed, called "SCANNING".
1- All in once (Progressive)
2- Lines displayed in alternating groups (Interlaced for broadcast)

06- What Are HD Frame Rates
NTSC = 23.98/ 29.97/ 30/ 59.94 60
PAL = 23.98/ 25/ 50

Pull-Down frames are used when playing back 24 fps material on 30 frame
Pull-Down frames are not used in PAL

Each frame contains 2 fields = [A1/2A] [B1/2B] [C1/2C] [D1/ 2]
By adding 1 frame to every four frame composed of duplicate fields

2-3-2-3 (Old Style Tele-cine) = [A1/2A] [B1/2B] [B1/2C] [C1/2D] [D1/ 2D]

2-3-3-2 (Panasonic P2) = [A1/2A] [B1/2B] [B1/2C] [C1/2C] [D1/ 2D]

2-2-2-4 (Fast 4 Computer 2 Deconstruct) = [A1/2A] [B1/2B] [C1/2C] [C1/2C] [D1/ 2D]

07- What Are Pixel Aspect Ratios?
Computer = 1:1
NTSC 16:9 SD = 1.2:1 (0.91 for 4:3)
PAL 16:9 SD = 1.42:1
HDV = 1.33:1
DVCPROHD 720 = 1.5:1

Image Bit Depth:
Bit Depth determines the number of shades of color or gray scale, an image can represent.
The higher the bit depth, the more accurately the image will represent reality, but the larger.
the file sizes.

8-BIT FORMAT ----------------- 10-BIT FORMAT ----------------- 12-BIT FORMAT
HDV ---------------------------- ProRes 422 ---------------------- HDCAM SR
DVCPRO HD ------------------- HDCAM --------------------------- RED Camera
XDCAM HD/ EX ---------------- HDCAM SR ----------------------- Computer images
HDCAM
AVC-Intra/ HD

08- What Method Are Used For Storing HD Video?
TAPE ------------------ HARD DISK ------------------ FLASH MEMORY ----------- OPTICAL MEDIA
HDV ------------------ HDV -------------------------- DVCPRO HD ---------------- (Blu-Ray)
DVCPRO ------------- HD ProRess 422 ------------- P2 -------------------------- XDCAM HD
HDCAM -------------- AVCHD ----------------------- AVC-Intra
HDCAM SR -----------DVCPRO ---------------------- AVCHD
-------------------------------------------------------- XDCAM EX
-------------------------------------------------------- SXS

Hard Disks slow down as they get fuller; so , try to leave about 20% free space.
Fire Wire Drive speed is determined by how many drives are attached.
Also Fire Wire drives will slow down when your camera is also attached.

RAID: Raid Provides much faster data transfer speed. when buying a Raid, make sure
to get one from a vendor that has expertise in video. Raid 0,1 and 3 avoid it.
Raid 5 is best for Mac

CONNECTION PROTOCOL -------------- DATA TRANSFER SPEED
USB ------------------------------------- Not fast enough to edit video on Mac
Fire Wire 400 --------------------------- 22 - 30 MB/ Second
Fire Wire 800 --------------------------- 42 - 50 MB/ Second
SATA ------------------------------------ 65 - 90 MB/ Second for single drive faster for Raid
Fibre Channel -------------------------- 200 - 1400 MB/ Second (Requires a RAID)

09- What Are Common Compression Format?
Two Types Of HD Compression:
1) I-Frame Compression (DVCPRO HD, ProRes 422, HDCAM, HDCAM SR):
Every image is complete. All compression is within the image, not between images.
I-frame-based video tends to provide higher image quality, but larger size.

2) GOP Compression (Group Of Pictures)(HDV, XDCAM HD & EX, AVCHD, MPEG-2 HD.
The first image in a GOP (called I-frame) is complete. The remaining frames are,
essentially, text documents describing how pixels have moved from initial I-frame
to the current frame. GOP compression makes files very small, but has issues with
time-code and frame accuracy; along with potentially lower image quality.

10- What Are Distribution Formats?
Three Choices:
1- Standard-Definition DVD
2- 720p HD (ABC, FOX, ESPN)
3- 1080i HD (CBS, NBC, PBS, Major Cable Channels)
[Accepted Distribution Media: 1- D5 (tape), HDCAM (Tape, HDCAM SR (tape)]

Ed Kishel
12-16-2008, 08:51 AM
I know that they "water resisted" the FX1s used on Deadliest Catch by taking silicone adhesive and sealing all the buttons shut. Clear silicone lets you read which button it is and still has enough give for the button to work. It was in the BTS when they were prepping their gear in the hotel.

To make allowances for gear in dangerous situations says to me- the footage works fine, they just prefer not to use it.

Postmaster
12-16-2008, 09:02 AM
Ahhh, if you deliver on HDCam tape they never find out - expecialy when some color correction was done.

We sold the BBC a documentary, about 50% shot on HDV - the rest on HDCam. They never even asked.
It smoothly went thru the quality control.

It was the same mabo-jambo when DV came out. All the better stations shyed away from it like the devil from holy water. They say itīs inferior to Betacam and Digibeta and they canīt broadcast such rubbish.

When you mastered the DV material to Digibeta they loved it.
History repeads.


The market for HD material is hot - the broadcasters desperately looking for programs - they buy EVERITING as long it is HD in the moment..

I could sell hundrets of hours huntiung, fishing, home improovement and car/motorcycle related programs in the moment, if I only had them.

Frank

shrigg
12-16-2008, 09:04 AM
If you're worried, buy some rails and a matte box, post a pic with you and the cam, and you're all set!

Yup, baffle em with matteboxes and most clients are impressed enough to not question the camera. On this instructional video shoot I had a Z1U with Chrosziel mattebox and rails and also set up a little HV20 with indian mattebox as a static wide shot and rolled both. Guess which camera had the better picture? The HV20 by far.

http://hdmuse.com/DSC_0341.jpg

http://hdmuse.com/DSC_0334.jpg

Mattykins
12-16-2008, 10:30 AM
HDV is a codec type featuring MPEG2 compression. It has a very high compression ratio which is what creates artifacting and blockyness. It isn't the design of a camera - wether it can take pro mics or not. And certainly doesn't have to deal with wether it can accept 'HD' lenses or not.

HDV also records audio at MPEG-1 Layer 2 - which just sucks in general for audio applications. 384 kbit/s, compared to 1536 kbit/s for DV video. Wether that matters at all is up to debate. You can't really determine its any worse than DV video.

It mostly has to deal with interframe compression - which true HD does not have. And an F900 is certainly not an HDV camera.

PerroneFord
12-16-2008, 10:37 AM
It mostly has to deal with interframe compression - which true HD does not have.

So BluRay is not HD? Dang.

Mattykins
12-16-2008, 10:59 AM
BlueRay is HDV not true HD. Considering most disks have the MPEG2 compression to allow backward compatibility - the information is still compressed. The major difference is the amount of information that is on the disk. Of course it is an HD frame. But the compression is still there and technically HDV. HDV and HD share aspect ratios, the difference is the compression.

And you record video with BlueRay? Impressive.

Just saying - nearly everything said is all kinds of wrong.

Barry_Green
12-16-2008, 11:11 AM
HDV is a specific defined format (well, two formats, actually). Blu-Ray's capabilities extend far beyond HDV, in that Blu-Ray encompasses AVC, MPEG-2, and VC-1.

PerroneFord
12-16-2008, 11:25 AM
Just saying - nearly everything said is all kinds of wrong.

True.

Mattykins
12-16-2008, 11:25 AM
HDV is a specific defined format (well, two formats, actually). Blu-Ray's capabilities extend far beyond HDV, in that Blu-Ray encompasses AVC, MPEG-2, and VC-1.

Thanks Barry - left out those formats. Unless I am off, a lot of BlueRay is still MPEG-2 to keep the backward compatibility going. At least that was the case early on in the game. I have a feeling that MPEG2 is still the set for most of the bonus stuff even when it is coded in VC-1 just to save time to port over from the DVD release.

PerroneFord
12-16-2008, 12:03 PM
I have a feeling that MPEG2 is still the set for most of the bonus stuff even when it is coded in VC-1 just to save time to port over from the DVD release.

Nearly every BD I've seen reviewed in the past year is Mpeg4 or VC-1. Mpeg2 is quickly falling away.

BobDiaz
12-16-2008, 05:03 PM
BlueRay is HDV not true HD. Considering most disks have the MPEG2 compression to allow backward compatibility - the information is still compressed. The major difference is the amount of information that is on the disk. Of course it is an HD frame. But the compression is still there and technically HDV. HDV and HD share aspect ratios, the difference is the compression.

And you record video with BlueRay? Impressive.

Just saying - nearly everything said is all kinds of wrong.


In the early days of Blu-ray MPEG-2 was used, but today, mostly everything is MPEG-4 H.264 or VC-1 using the higher quality 2 pass compression.

Many movies are mastered using 2K or 4K scans, color correction is applied, and converted to 1080/24p (1920x1080) for recording to the Blu-ray disk. The color space is 4:2:0.


The answer to the question, "What is True HD?", will depend on how one defines, "True HD".

Is 720p True HD?

Is 1080i True HD?

Is any sub-sampling true HD? (1440x1080 or 1280x1080)

Is 4:2:0 True HD?

Is any form of compression True HD?



Bob Diaz

ChipG
12-16-2008, 05:10 PM
many broadcasters like the discovery channel have specific limitations on how much HDV footage can be used in a program. under 30% i think. this may be the reason why they don't want HDV.

If your content is good they will take it. The new episodes of Storm Chasers on Discovery was shot all on Sony Z7 cmos hdv camera's. Same with the new Deadliest Catch, older episodes were older Sony Z1's. I have friends that shoot / produce both shows. Disco loves Sony HDV now.

Mattykins
12-16-2008, 05:35 PM
Major films never go 4K unless it is for a VFX plate. 2K is the transfer that happens almost all the time. Color space wouldn't exit full raster until the end compression. You wouldn't go color correcting a 4:2:0 color space after the lab transfers the footage. At the least it would get transfered with a 4:2:2 color space. But they would never pop out a 4:2:0 unless it was final compression.

I don't know how "early" you can say 2006 was when Paramount was still using MPEG-2? I neglected to mention the two newer codecs. Which do indeed carry twice the information.

PerroneFord
12-16-2008, 05:52 PM
I don't know how "early" you can say 2006 was when Paramount was still using MPEG-2? I neglected to mention the two newer codecs. Which do indeed carry twice the information.

From the wiki BluRay site:

"The first BD-ROM players were shipped in the middle of June 2006, though HD DVD players beat them in the race to the market by a few months.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#cite_note-19)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#cite_note-20) The first Blu-ray Disc titles were released on June 20, 2006"

So I'd say 2006 was pretty dang early...

Mattykins
12-16-2008, 06:23 PM
And it's currently 2008. I only meant to say that early wasn't all too long ago.

ESTEBEVERDE
12-16-2008, 07:25 PM
And now back to our regularly scheduled program in progress.....


So, basically each job will really define what true HD is.

At the end of the day it's the Golden Rule.

He with the Gold makes the Rules.


Our job is to perfect our art and craft in a format suitable for our target audience...

That's really the long and short of it I suppose.