5dmkii - some faves on vimeo

[henry cho]

i thought this was some nice stuff. first clip shows that the 5d is more than capable as a storytelling tool, and the second b&w clip has some nice style.

http://www.vimeo.com/2423314

http://www.vimeo.com/2486544

[Car3o]

vimeo does a good job at changing the 30p to 24p

[mattsand]

Using the impressive "drop every 5th frame" algorithm. :-)

[Emanuel]

I agree. Terrific. Especially the B&W one.

I had a look on some stuff from you Mattias, filmmakers gang poster had told me about. It seems interesting. Do you have furthermore?

Yet as far as the 24p conversion is concerned, what would it be your best bet? Lee's retiming method? It doesn't seem bad this 'drop every 5th frame algorithm', at least, on both above-posted ones...

[John Caballero]

So if Vimeo does the conversion to 24P so well there should be a software way to do this in post and the 30P dilema should be moot. Correct?

[mattsand]

they don't do it well, they just do it. drop your 30p clip on a 24p timeline in any nle and that's what you get, or simply open the clip in quicktime player and export using 24 fps. when people talk about the problems converting they mean to get better results, but if you don't need that it's not a problem whatsoever. sorry if this hasn't been made clear before.

/matt

[mattsand]

I had a look on some stuff from you Mattias, filmmakers gang poster had told me about. It seems interesting. Do you have furthermore?
probably, but of what? ;-)

/matt

[John Caballero]

they don't do it well, they just do it.

So it means that it can be done better.

[mattsand]

faq

/matt

[Caesar]

I asked to Barry Green. He said Lee's solution is very good. I have worries about audio though. Re-timing audio too?

[dvpixl]

there are still some motion blur that gives away it's 30p look. I doubt there's any clean workaround. With variable shutter speed getting in the way, you wont get a better feel than a native 24p can give.

[Chris_TC]

I asked to Barry Green. He said Lee's solution is very good. I have worries about audio though. Re-timing audio too?
Audio has no framerate. As long as the clip length doesn't change, your audio will be fine.

[Caesar]

Audio has no framerate. As long as the clip length doesn't change, your audio will be fine.Yes but, slower correct?

[Lucere]

A friend of mine likes to use this. I haven't used it yet. I'd at least read the reviews at the bottom of their webpage before making a decision...
http://www.revisionfx.com/products/twixtor/

[Gordon Prince]

Audio has no framerate. As long as the clip length doesn't change, your audio will be fine.How won't it change? Retiming the video, it will change the length.

[mattsand]

How won't it change? Retiming the video, it will change the length.

the whole purpose of this workflow it to not change the length. simply slowing down to 24 fps is trivial.

/matt

[mattsand]

A friend of mine likes to use this
yeah, that's what "lee's method" is.

/matt

[Lee Wilson]

Yet as far as the 24p conversion is concerned, what would it be your best bet? Lee's retiming method? It doesn't seem bad this 'drop every 5th frame algorithm', at least, on both above-posted ones...


Although I would love to take credit, all 'my' method consists of is using After Effects built in time stretch (ie: I did nothing !).

Dropping every 5th frame might look ok on Vimeo, but in the real world it will look awful.

[Lee Wilson]

they don't do it well, they just do it. drop your 30p clip on a 24p timeline in any nle and that's what you get.

Are you saying Vimeo just slows clips down from 30p to 24p ? (never really paid attention to whether clips are running slower?)

[Lee Wilson]

I asked to Barry Green. He said Lee's solution is very good. I have worries about audio though. Re-timing audio too?

Retiming audio is trivial compared to video.

Bear in mind the temporal resolution of the 5D2 is thirty frames per second for video, while it captures audio at forty four thousand, one hundred times a second (effectively 22,050 'frames' if you know your nyquist theorems.) That's 1470 'frames' of audio for every single video frame, this allows plenty of scope for speeding up and slowing down audio.

[Lee Wilson]

Audio has no framerate. As long as the clip length doesn't change, your audio will be fine.

Not quite right about audio having no frame rate (a 44.1khz single has an effective frame rate of 22.05khz) - I think it is more correct to say that the audio doesn't care what you do to the footage (make it 1000 fps or 1 fps) - it will only go out of sync if you change the (temporal) length.

But saying all that, I think saying 'Audio has no framerate' is quite useful to get the idea over.

[Lee Wilson]

Yes but, slower correct?


No, the same !

[Lee Wilson]

yeah, that's what "lee's method" is.

/matt

Yep! Basically After Effects version of pixel motion technique. (which apparently is not as good as Twixtor).

But carry on calling it Lee's method if you want !! :zombie_smiley::crybaby::kiss::)

[Lee Wilson]

the whole purpose of this workflow it to not change the length. simply slowing down to 24 fps is trivial.

/matt

Can I get a hell yeah !

Slow the video and audio down to 24p - super simple, the video runs slower and the audio runs slower (and optionally lower in pitch).

But. . . .

If we time stretch, we are simply decreasing (or increasing) the frame rate - not the length of the clip, so a 40 second scene remains 40 seconds and the audio need do nothing much besides sit around and wait to play against the new frame rate.

[Caesar]

Slow the video and audio down to 24p - super simple, the video runs slower and the audio runs slower (and optionally lower in pitch).
Lower or higher? I thought you would have to high in pitch if you have the audio running slower...

[mattsand]

You don't flip much vinyl do you? I learned what happened when you ran things faster and slower when i was like three. :-)

[taubkin]

lol, how about 1/4" tapes?

[Caesar]

You don't flip much vinyl do you? Why? Should I? Why?


I learned what happened when you ran things faster and slower when i was like three. :-)Congratulations! If this will help you :-) good for you.

[squig]

Why? Should I? Why?

Congratulations! If this will help you :-) good for you.
because it sounds much better than that digitized garbage. And it's a lot more fun

[mattsand]

I didn't mean to brag and i couldn't care less what you listen to, it's just that for us who grew up with vinyl the difference between 33 and 45 rpm is forever burnt into our subconscious making your question a bit silly, like asking whether the world is flat. :-)

[Lee Wilson]

Lower or higher? I thought you would have to high in pitch if you have the audio running slower...


Caesar, ignore these idiots. :)

I think I know what you are saying, if you need to slow something down (and keep the pitch correct) you must first raise the pitch - so when the footage (and audio) is slowed down (and the audio's pitch lowers) it will be correct.

So . . . .

Pitch up a music track, shoot a video against this music, now slow the video/audio down (from 30p to 24p) and the pitch of the music will arrive back at it's original position.



I would use one of these methods:

1) Shoot at 30p and time stretch the video to 24p - but leave the audio alone !! result: 24p / normally pitched audio.

2) Shoot at 30p and slow the video down to 24p - (the audio will go down in pitch) - pitch the audio back up with a simple pitch shifter. result: 24p (slightly slo-motion) normally pitched audio (but slower in tempo).

[taubkin]

Caesar, ignore these idiots. :)

I would use one of these methods:

1) Shoot at 30p and time stretch the video to 24p - but leave the audio alone !! result: 24p / normally pitched audio.

2) Shoot at 30p and slow the video down to 24p - (the audio will go down in pitch) - pitch the audio back up with a simple pitch shifter. result: 24p (slightly slo-motion) normally pitched audio (but slower in tempo).

hehehe...

Now I'm thinking this has gone into a very surreal topic of pitch-shifting audio to withstand a 30p to 24p conversion. Do we realize what we're saying? A RedOne rental is not that expensive... Or even... Is 24p THAT important? :)

I'll have to agree with Barry Green here. It doesn't seem right. :huh:

[Emanuel]

I didn't mean to brag and i couldn't care less what you listen to, it's just that for us who grew up with vinyl the difference between 33 and 45 rpm is forever burnt into our subconscious making your question a bit silly, like asking whether the world is flat. :-)Mattias, don't worry. Caesar is one of my former trainees, one of the best indeed. He's just someone who doesn't grow up with the vinyl, new generations! :)

Lee, fortunately, I am out of your personal battles and rants... :laugh: :dankk2: anyway for your input. Much appreciated.

[filmmaker's gang]

hehehe...

Now I'm thinking this has gone into a very surreal topic of pitch-shifting audio to withstand a 30p to 24p conversion. Do we realize what we're saying? A RedOne rental is not that expensive... Or even... Is 24p THAT important? :)

I'll have to agree with Barry Green here. It doesn't seem right. :huh:gang here.. i know you and emanuel you have been in touch.. i watched your clip.. above the average.. :thumbup: add my salutes.. but..

quoting barry?.. :lipsrseal is canon a matsushi*a company?.. :huh: had not noticed..:violin:

rentals?.. renting red?.. just kidded around?..

mate.. lascia perdere the mainstream..

24p is not THAT important.. same for shutter speed.. or contrast.. or latitude.. or grain... DOF.. lighting..
or THAT important.. is all of the above.. w/ no exceptions.. gotcha?

lee wilson.. lee has just given to us a tech hug.. different than the usual geek hug here and there.. demystifying the usual rants against any new tool outside.

compare a red w/ a DSLR?.. how dare you? :)

[Lee Wilson]

Do we realize what we're saying?


Yes.



Is 24p THAT important? :)

To those who want to produce some 24p from their 30p footage - it is of interest.


I'll have to agree with Barry Green here. It doesn't seem right. :huh:

Well that's two people who need not worry themselves with this thread. :)

[Lee Wilson]

Lee, fortunately, I am out of your personal battles and rants...

Good :Drogar-Love(DBG):

[taubkin]

gang here.. i know you and emanuel you have been in touch.. i watched your clip.. above the average.. add my salutes.. but..

quoting barry?.. is canon a matsushi*a company?.. had not noticed..

rentals?.. renting red?.. just kidded around?..

mate.. lascia perdere the mainstream..

24p is not THAT important.. same for shutter speed.. or contrast.. or latitude.. or grain... DOF.. lighting..
or THAT important.. is all of the above.. w/ no exceptions.. gotcha?

lee wilson.. lee has just given to us a tech hug.. different than the usual geek hug here and there.. demystifying the usual rants against any new tool outside.

compare a red w/ a DSLR?.. how dare you? :)

First of all, thanks! :D

Second, long time, mate!

And third, I have been reading the D90 threads, since I'm about to buy a video DSLR too. The "Lee fix" is genius and Lee is highly huggable - in a respectful and heterossexual way.

Now, Barry has been 'a little' biased since day one of DVXUSER... But, he's just saying, should we go through all the trouble of converting framerates for effect? Besides, 'biased' as he is, he never said anything unreasonable, or at least not that I remember...

Hey, I dig 24p. I still have my DVX100a. I love 24p DVDs and how acceptable they look on 720p plasmas. I love that web enconding is 20% faster and lighter with 24p, and I use vimeo, as you could see. And I love that it looks more like film.

But when I have to shoot a video podcast with an old Sony Z1 laying around on the house, I do it, and just post it as it is: Interlaced 29.97 video.

In the old days (before 24p video), we would see all sorts of 24p conversion, from sources as good as digital betacam, and they didn't look right. Maybe if you have a station in your office that can spend a day transcoding framerates for a project, sure, you could do it, but the value of that day could easily pay for rental of a native 24p camera. Sometimes even a Red one...

24p is not IMHO as important as contrast, lighting, framing or subject. Sure, koyaanisqatsi would not work if it was shot with a flip, but most projects designed to be shot with a 3000 bucks camera would not NEED it...

Hey, Jim said when he was starting up that he wanted Red to give him the image his DLSRs did but only in motion.... I'm not inventing anything new here... :)

Nothing aggainst independent cinema, or even some guerilla ways of solving problems Canon engeneers were not very keen on.

And maybe I'm naysaying, irritated for being stuck at the office editing a project in the middle of Saturday. If so, I'm sorry. :D

I guess the whole point is, even if something is possible, how much should something be practical enough to be considered worth doing. The Lee fix for the D90, certainly is. But maybe we're getting carried away over this solution, wich now has become the main discussion in all topics in this forum... :D


Well that's two people who need not worry themselves with this thread. :)Well, this thread interests me, because it's not a topic about frame rate conversions, but about some favs on vimeo. :)

I'm not ditching your solution, or even the lookout for a viable solution entirely. I just think it's not practical!

I think that hacking the firmware of the camera should be a more propper way to go, for instance (even though it has not been proven possible yet...).

Ah, I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling...

You know too much work and no play, or something like that... :)

Cheers!:beer:

[Lee Wilson]

Well, this thread interests me, because it's not a topic about frame rate conversions, but about some favs on vimeo. :)


Whoops ! I thought I was in the 'converting 30p to 25p thread' ! My mistake. :O


I'm not ditching your solution, or even the lookout for a viable solution entirely. I just think it's not practical!

It's not my solution ! it is simply After Effects (or any platform that supports a version of pixel motion) - and, for me at least, the practicalities are fine, pretty straightforward, if time consuming (which admittedly will be an issue for some).


I think that hacking the firmware of the camera should be a more propper way to go, for instance (even though it has not been proven possible yet...).

Even more proper would be a firmware update, but a safe hack would be a great second option.

[taubkin]

Even more proper would be a firmware update, but a safe hack would be a great second option.

Touché.

[Gordon Prince]

And until then? Lee has opened some doors.

[Emanuel]

The DSLR form factor has no comparison at all with nothing out there.

Take a glance there:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/timo/3096162286/

[Lee Wilson]

Touché.

?

[Emanuel]

It's french, an idiomatic expression (only for any latin idiom?). It does mean, Júlio (Taubkin) is particularly agreeing with you, particularly on that assessment of yours.

[Lee Wilson]

It's french, an idiomatic expression (only for any latin idiom?). It does mean, Júlio (Taubkin) is particularly agreeing with you, particularly on that assessment of yours.

I understand the phrase, the context puzzled me, but I now understand. :)

(It can mean almost the opposite here in the UK ! It is commonly used to acknowledge that someone has made a good counter argument against your own argument.)

[Lee Wilson]

Anyhow. . . . back to the topic. :2vrolijk_08:

[mattsand]

Caesar, ignore these idiots. :)



Or stop being so damn serious? Everybody knows what he perhaps meant but that doesn't work if you're looking to make fun of the new generation, or yourself for being an old fart, if that's how you wanna see it. Yeah i saw you smiley but if you thought i brought up vinyl for pragmatic reasons i think you're mistaken. :-)

[mattsand]

Anyhow. . . . back to the topic. :2vrolijk_08:

Oops, sorry...

[Lee Wilson]

Or stop being so damn serious?

No way. It's my job. :zombie_smiley:

[taubkin]

I understand the phrase, the context puzzled me, but I now understand. :)

(It can mean almost the opposite here in the UK ! It is commonly used to acknowledge that someone has made a good counter argument against your own argument.)

I'm soo tired... :)

You actually made your whole point. We should wait for a firmware upgrade, and since there's nothing we can do about it, in the meantime, who wants freaking 24p could test software options. I wouldn't but I see why some would.

[Lee Wilson]

I'm soo tired... :)

Let me offer you my deepest sympathies :crybaby:


You actually made your whole point. We should wait for a firmware upgrade, and since there's nothing we can do about it, in the meantime, who wants freaking 24p could test software options. I wouldn't but I see why some would.

For us PAL users 25p is not an aesthetic choice or something we think looks cool - because it looks more like film - we simply cannot supply footage to any broadcaster at any other rate - it is a technical problem we cannot ignore.

Maybe we should collectively write an open letter to Canon requesting 25/24p - collect as many signatures as possible and forward it to them ? I don't really know how these things work, and whether they would take any notice ??

[Emanuel]

I don't believe in Santa Claus in any way other than when you want to be the Santa. Go ahead with your workarounds, Lee. They are as valuable as your will.

[Lee Wilson]

I don't believe in Santa Claus in any way other than when you want to be the Santa. Go ahead with your workarounds, Lee. They are as valuable as your will.

The only thing in my will is a 5D2 and a digital watch.

[Emanuel]

Interesting hands-on approach related to the 1st clip (1st post@1st page):

http://www.mophojo.com/2008/12/first-take-on-the-canon-5d-mark-ii-2/

[txsbluesguy]

"For us PAL users 25p is not an aesthetic choice or something we think looks cool - because it looks more like film - we simply cannot supply footage to any broadcaster at any other rate - it is a technical problem we cannot ignore."

pal = 25fps=50 fields per sec ..... ac mains = 50 hz or 50 cycle per sec
ntsc=30fps=60 fields per sec ...... ac mains = 60 hz or 60 cycles per sec

throw back to analog televisions when it was easier to use the AC frequency to drive the circuits than change and filter the frequencies to match something new or old like 24 FPS

then there is the whole technolgy reasonin for 24fps that has nothibng to do detached dreamlike altenative world viewers but more with technolgy and econmics FWIW: http://www.cinemaweb.com/silentfilm/bookshelf/18_kb_2.htm