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View Full Version : Canon 5D mk II manual controls and other fps initiative! (http://canonhack.com)



lyrd
12-09-2008, 02:35 PM
A lot of people will be using the 5D for film since it's a insanely cheap very very good video camera.

But there are severe limitations. Most stuff is most likely unnecessary and can be fixed with a firmware update.

That is why I started http://canonhack.com/ to either pressure Canon to updating the firmware or having someone hack it.

It's a fund where the entire lot will go to the person who posts the first successful hack with the desired manual features.

Hopes to see you all there, let's get this ball rolling.

egproductions
12-09-2008, 07:48 PM
I think its a great idea to get things rolling but here are my concerns:

What if someone comes up with a partial hack (like aperture control) do they get money?

What is the hack for specifically? (full manual control, frame rate, NTFS file system etc.)

As someone else said in another thread, what if no hack is developed or Canon releases a firware upgrade, who gets the money?

I'm also concerned about how this will be tested to make sure I can put a hacked firmware in my camera without the risk of screwing something up and not having a way to revert back.

If I am satisfied with the answers, I would donate (invest) more into this cause.

lyrd
12-10-2008, 03:13 AM
I think its a great idea to get things rolling but here are my concerns:

What if someone comes up with a partial hack (like aperture control) do they get money?

What is the hack for specifically? (full manual control, frame rate, NTFS file system etc.)

As someone else said in another thread, what if no hack is developed or Canon releases a firware upgrade, who gets the money?

I'm also concerned about how this will be tested to make sure I can put a hacked firmware in my camera without the risk of screwing something up and not having a way to revert back.

If I am satisfied with the answers, I would donate (invest) more into this cause.


Those are all good points. Right now there is no time limit meaning the money will be there for a while but eventually I will have to admit it failed if no hack has come forward (or indeed if canon releases). I suppose i would then donate the money to some worthy cause like chdk (hacking canon cameras). In fact I might have a poll to decide where to donate the money to.

The award will go to the first person who implements full manual control over ISO, shutter speed and aperture. Those are the only requirements.

However, there are also a lot of desired features like other framerates and we are of course hoping a lot of those get fullfilled as well!

Since the source will be released someone else might otherwise keep the banner moving ahead and take up where the first person left off.

Well the testing. To win the price the hacker needs to send in proof that it works and does not destroy the camera. For instance by sending in a videoclip of him using it. Once I personally am convinced I will try it on my camera and once I too have confirmed it I will release the hack to the public and transfer the funds to the hacker.

Hope that answers all your questions.

Caesar
12-10-2008, 04:05 AM
Those are all good points. Right now there is no time limit meaning the money will be there for a while but eventually I will have to admit it failed if no hack has come forward (or indeed if canon releases). I suppose i would then donate the money to some worthy cause like chdk (hacking canon cameras). In fact I might have a poll to decide where to donate the money to.

The award will go to the first person who implements full manual control over ISO, shutter speed and aperture. Those are the only requirements.

However, there are also a lot of desired features like other framerates and we are of course hoping a lot of those get fullfilled as well!

Since the source will be released someone else might otherwise keep the banner moving ahead and take up where the first person left off.

Well the testing. To win the price the hacker needs to send in proof that it works and does not destroy the camera. For instance by sending in a videoclip of him using it. Once I personally am convinced I will try it on my camera and once I too have confirmed it I will release the hack to the public and transfer the funds to the hacker.

Hope that answers all your questions.It would be more interesting if you could add the frame rate issue there. Then you can count on my contribute. With others too. i can talk with others that I know.

xray
12-10-2008, 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by lyrd: 'A lot of people will be using the 5D for film since it's a insanely cheap very very good video camera. But there are severe limitations. Most stuff is most likely unnecessary and can be fixed with a firmware update.'

The idea that you can transform this photocamera to a videocamera with full manual control by changing ('hacking') the Canon firmware is absolutely nonsense. Save your money, or lose it.

egproductions
12-10-2008, 06:31 AM
xray, what is your level of knowledge that you can confidently say its not possible?

I don't mean to doubt your knowledge I just don't know your credentials. I don't know enough about computers to say either way but was wondering if you do or you are guessing for lack of a better word.

lyrd
12-10-2008, 07:50 AM
Well the frame rate issue is on the desired list. The reason only manual controls is the requirement is because that is what the camera sets automatically which is why we know it's not a hardware limitation. However we all hope that it is possible to fix the framerate too!

xray, I'm not so sure. For sure there are things a professional video camera is much better at like for instance sound input choices. Personally I have solved that with an external audio recorder and mic. I think a lot of the shortcomings of this camera can be fixed with fairly cheap methods. Maybe it still wont reach 100% of the way... but still very very good value for money compared to many video cameras. That is if it had manual mode ;-)

filmmaker's gang
12-10-2008, 08:50 AM
don't bother boys.. xray is only acting as xray.. as usual :Drogar-Dum(DBG):

i support the frame rates idea.. :thumbup:

lyrd
12-10-2008, 04:27 PM
don't bother boys.. xray is only acting as xray.. as usual :Drogar-Dum(DBG):

i support the frame rates idea.. :thumbup:


Excellent, All support is needed. Spread the world... spread the revolution... do stuff :-D

drdimento
12-12-2008, 08:35 PM
I guess one question I have on the MK II is how do ya deal with the "fixed" settings when light and conditions change with regard to iris? My understanding talking with Calumet is that once you go to movie mode the thing is locked down. No mods. Is that a for sure?

lyrd
12-14-2008, 02:38 AM
I guess one question I have on the MK II is how do ya deal with the "fixed" settings when light and conditions change with regard to iris? My understanding talking with Calumet is that once you go to movie mode the thing is locked down. No mods. Is that a for sure?

No the regular mode is that the camera constantly adjust which is great for family videos. However you can lock it with exposure lock.

What we want is manual controls which will get the same result as exposure lock but oh so much easier to use and more exact.

drdimento
12-14-2008, 06:28 AM
No the regular mode is that the camera constantly adjust which is great for family videos. However you can lock it with exposure lock. . . .

So then, one sets the camera in movie mode and IT adjusts the iris? But, the real question is does the user have control over any other (or all) settings while in movie mode?

Tom Lowe
12-14-2008, 07:39 AM
let's get this freekin hack done. less talking, more hacking. :)

24p and lower fps like 1 fps are what I want. i guess opening up the HDMI port for full 1920x1080 out would be nice... don't know if it would even be possible.

mabusfe
12-14-2008, 11:50 PM
IS it possible that they haven't figured out how to do 24p without having terrible rolling shutter like on the D90? Maybe that's why they don't offer it, it would reveal the god awful shutter problems, but in 30p it somehow syncs to the electronic shutter making it acceptable.

Maybe?

dave12781
12-15-2008, 10:50 AM
If you look at the advances that this camera has over a camera like the Red Scarlet, I believe it would be entirely possible for someone to hack this camera into a production camera which could be slightly better than Scarlet or the Red One.

Red's chips actually have a lower pixel skew than the 5d (5d = 22mp, Red = 12mp). The Digic processor is scaling and compressing that 22mp image down to an HD images; whereas, the Red is not scaling much at all - and the compression standard (although much more desirable) is a lot simpler for the Red processor to handle.

I personally love Canon products - they make the best cameras but are often a little afraid to take a leap like Red does so carelessly.

Get to hacking.

drdimento
12-15-2008, 11:08 AM
If you look at the advances that this camera has over a camera like the Red Scarlet, I believe it would be entirely possible for someone to hack this camera into a production camera which could be slightly better than Scarlet or the Red One. . . .

I think that when you look on the whole of it, Canon being a video company already and a still company has a remarkable position to blow the Red anything away both in price and accessibility. Think about it. Canon has maybe 1 or 2 zillion lenses that fit their cameas WITHOUT adapters or special modified mounts. They have the 35mm understanding. And they have the following, let alone a network of dealers, support and tech groups, and user groups world wide.

If they can get this 5D MkII thing going and/or nex gen resolve to make sure the adjustability and tweaking, they got me . . that's a for sure. However, go slipping the price up there with the Nikon D3X that dosn't make movies or higher and folks will just go get a Red or some other video camera. I'd love to have a still camera tht did fabulous video in 35mm format. Moreover, while audio is a plus it (audio) is not necessary as a lot of field pro's use alternative audio recording formats anywho BUT if a simplified 16bit version could be a part of the package well then there ya have it. I'd move my two piece of Nikon assets and be a Canon (like my HD cams)

smartwombat
12-15-2008, 12:19 PM
I wonder if the 5DmkII is a teaser for a 1DSmkIV with professional video features ?

drdimento
12-15-2008, 12:24 PM
I wonder if the 5DmkII is a teaser for a 1DSmkIV with professional video features ?

Is that how Canon does the numbering? If that's the ticket they'll have me for sure. I want that frame size and DOF and removable lens like on my D200 and D300. Just wished I had the spare $$ to go the D3 route or at least a D700 :) Someday. For now it's getting our whole system converted to HD while unloading all our digital SD video gear, 35mm film gear, biggie mole-richardson and arri lights, and multiple audio equipment profiles down to two only. We keep it up we'll have a nice set up here :D

lyrd
12-18-2008, 05:24 AM
So then, one sets the camera in movie mode and IT adjusts the iris? But, the real question is does the user have control over any other (or all) settings while in movie mode?

Your only controls is aperture (which the camera will override as it sees fit).
exposure compensation and exposure lock.

thats it

Clarence Lohan
12-24-2008, 01:52 AM
Red's chips actually have a lower pixel skew than the 5d (5d = 22mp, Red = 12mp). The Digic processor is scaling and compressing that 22mp image down to an HD images; whereas, the Red is not scaling much at all - and the compression standard (although much more desirable) is a lot simpler for the Red processor to handle.



The 5d doesn't resize the image from 22 mp to 1920*1080....It simply skips some pixels.

lyrd
12-29-2008, 10:05 AM
The 5d doesn't resize the image from 22 mp to 1920*1080....It simply skips some pixels.

I havn't checked this but more or less all video cameras use the full sensor and then scales down the image. I'd be surprised if the same wasn't the case for 5D II.

It does skip some pixels to change to widescreen.

drdimento
12-29-2008, 10:38 AM
I havn't checked this but more or less all video cameras use the full sensor and then scales down the image. I'd be surprised if the same wasn't the case for 5D II. It does skip some pixels to change to widescreen.

"lyrd" I don't think this is correct. In fact, I think a lot of video cameras work quite the opposite; that is, they upscale an put pixel count in where the imager is quite smaller (like half the pixel count) and then run this algorithm to make the image a 1920x1080. That is, in the case of the HVX200/A the imager is something in the 940/960x560/540 class and then uses algorithm to get to the final destination of 1920x1080 and if you do the math that is something like twice the horizontal and twice the vertical which is something like ~4x conversion. And most of them do this same mathematical magic.

There are a few (from my research maybe one or two) that do little magic; that is, they have a much larger imager like in the 1440/1280x1080/960 class (much larger than the former) and do either little math or no math to get to destination.

Someone correct me if I'm way off base here but when I spoke to Panasonic, Sony, and Canon, on the subject that is the conclusion they gave me from their tech departments . . AND . . none of that means anything positive if there isn't some kind of really HOT pre-noise filtering system to avoid "multiplying" the analog noise conversions which then get calc'd and (do the math) multiplied.

Follow?

Lee Wilson
12-30-2008, 10:26 AM
I havn't checked this but more or less all video cameras use the full sensor and then scales down the image. I'd be surprised if the same wasn't the case for 5D II.


The 5DII does not downscale the full sensor image, it simply skips pixels to get it's 1920x1080 image.

filmmaker's gang
12-30-2008, 11:16 AM
The 5DII does not downscale the full sensor image, it simply skips pixels to get it's 1920x1080 image.any idea how many pixels the camera skips?.. how many of them remain?

Lee Wilson
12-30-2008, 09:44 PM
any idea how many pixels the camera skips?..

I have heard people say that it only records every third pixel, I am too lazy to do the maths myself - full sensor resolution divided by 1080p minus the 16:9 crop (or something like that).


how many of them remain?

On the sensor ? All the pixels remain ! :)

In the final 1080p image ? 1920 x 1080 ! :)

lyrd
01-05-2009, 11:57 PM
I just wanted to chime in and say that counting both pledges (where I have registered email addresses) and donations. We are now close to 2000USD which is a very impressive sum!

Emanuel
01-09-2009, 04:20 PM
USD $4,000.00 now.

I have a suggestion: why not to enter in touch with skilled people in order to notice them about the offer? Eventually, let the hacker make the price as goal amount?

Lee Wilson
01-09-2009, 05:35 PM
I just wanted to chime in and say that counting both pledges (where I have registered email addresses) and donations. We are now close to 2000USD which is a very impressive sum!

Both pledges now equal = $4427 !

Hunter Hampton
01-09-2009, 08:09 PM
Can the fellows who do the hacks on the canon powershots maybe help?

lyrd
01-10-2009, 02:00 AM
Can the fellows who do the hacks on the canon powershots maybe help?

I have posted in their forums as well. They are most certainly welcome to help out or fix it completely

JHouser
01-10-2009, 02:00 AM
24P
http://www.cinemek.com/images/5D.jpg

lyrd
01-10-2009, 02:01 AM
USD $4,000.00 now.

I have a suggestion: why not to enter in touch with skilled people in order to notice them about the offer? Eventually, let the hacker make the price as goal amount?

I like that Idea!
I'm about to update the original post. I will ask theme there to post it in the comments!

Abaddon
01-14-2009, 12:13 PM
The images from this thing are amazing. This should really push some competition with the other guys.

jamesmallonuk
02-04-2009, 06:45 PM
I hope the hacks get going as I am holding back until I have a camera that does manual audio. which makes me wonder why manual audio isn't the priority rather than aperature etc.

xray
02-06-2009, 09:55 PM
24P

:beer:

dave12781
02-16-2009, 11:34 PM
Isn't there a display mode on the camera that allows you to see the exposure as it is set for the picture you are about to take but you can't lock it for movie mode?

Wouldn't it just be easiest for some nice hacker to include a lock function on that camera in that mode? That doesn't seem like it would be that hard.

Just a thought.

booggerg2
02-17-2009, 07:33 PM
Isn't there a display mode on the camera that allows you to see the exposure as it is set for the picture you are about to take but you can't lock it for movie mode?

Wouldn't it just be easiest for some nice hacker to include a lock function on that camera in that mode? That doesn't seem like it would be that hard.

Just a thought.

Uhhh.. yeah I'm sure they are aware of that.. and as to difficulty. I'm sure it's hard.