Feedback

[Gord.T]

The official ongoing feedback thread.

What can we do for you? How can we improve?

[Mattykins]

But guys, this feedback is critical. Raptor and I have taken this thing under our wings. It's the third rendition of the fest. If people aren't entering. We are going to call it DOA.

We want to make it the best we can for all you guys.

[MrFluffy]

(IE lost my first attempt at this reply, took 10 minutes to write as well).

I've been playing with some ideas for entering this fest, but I wanted to see if I could pull off any of the ideas before announcing my desire to enter. Im going to be combining custom shot footage with CGI from XSI, matchmoved with Syntheyes and compositied with Ae. And its my first time doing anythig this complicated.

As for feedback I have some thoughts on the lack of entries.

When I first saw the title of the forum "CGFest" I popped in and there was a little announcement about doing a fest but no real details. At that pointI was of the opinion that I would not be entering as it was "CGFest".

When I see and talk to people about CG they think Toy Story or Beowolf. Pure CG, no film. When you think in terms of VFX you think, The Matrix, Batman, Supernatural, etc. While VFX covers CG the reverse is not true.

So I think that while you are happy to have pure CG, the title should have been something like "VFXFest - Supernatural". This would appeal to filmmakers and VFX artists more than CGFest. Compositors would probably not even bother to read any posts.

If I hadn't of popped back later and read the details, which I still dont think say VFX loud enough, I would never have realised that VFX was ok for this and even thought about entering.

This is also a fest that requires considerable investment in time and equipment before you can even consider playing. Anyone can pick up a camera and shoot a basic, if bad, film. CG/VFX takes a lot of skill before you can do even the most basic of scenes.

Finally, I count that there are currently 4 other movie fests and 1 script fest plus photography. This may simply be work overload and if the fest title is not catchy enough it may simply not draw enough attention.

You guys are doing a great job so please dont take any of what I have said as a critisism, rather than hapefully useful feedback.

[Neal Buconjic]

Guys,

I'm truly blown away by the talent and skill level required to the things you do. It's WAY beyond me. But I check in here daily to see the WIPs, as I think this stuff is very interesting AND inspiring.

I'd love to participate, but my skill level taps out at a mediocre compositor (and I just learned to do that over the past month).

I wasn't sure I understood the rules of the fest. I didn't know the running time requirements. I've noticed in a past fest that the clips were maybe 10 seconds long? I understand that your work is VERY intensive, requiring long render times.

I thought of writing a short supernatural scene, shooting it with my HVX then using AE for VFX to sell it. But when I saw some of the WIP threads I realized that I was WAY off the mark. It seemed that CGFest requires 3D, MAYA, etc. and not compositing with AE.

I still check in to see the updates, but I don't have the skills (nor the programs!) to participate.

Good luck guys.

[joeloud]

I've been watching the WIPs since I first noticed the fest was open, but I didn't even realize this was actually open until a few days after. I kept checking and only seeing the "coming soon" post, and quit looking, so I had no idea it had started up. Unfortunately, when I saw the contest rules, I was disappointed that I couldn't really participate because of the deadline.

I was interested in working with some CG people on something, but the bigger fests have much longer deadlines. I've done CG as a hobby, but not professionally, and I know exactly zero CG artists personally, so I most certainly wouldn't be able to get anything of any quality together by the 22nd of December by myself.

I used to frequent the old LWG message boards when I was much more into Lightwave. I think they still do it on Foundation3D boards, but LWG had a texture competition every month. They'd supply a model, and everyone was supposed to texture it. That's all you had to do, and you had a month. Here, you have to model, texture, rig, potentially animate and render out your still or animation in the same amount of time.

A month to do all that might be fine for some people, but most of the people here aren't CG artists, so one suggestion might be to integrate filmmaking into this competition. The competition obviously isn't explicitly excluding filmmaking, but the deadline could easily be a deterrent unless you already had everything you needed in your back yard.

Just off the top of my head, what you could do is provide some footage and tell people they have to match-move it and integrate something, anything into the video. Or contestants have to make a 30-60 second video, and have at least one VFX shot or entirely CG.

Or possibly make it a full-blown DVXFest, where you have to make a short, maybe 4 or 5 minutes or less, that involve at least X CG shots, or be entirely CG. I don't know, something where you could involve the filmmakers here who I'm sure would love to work with you guys. Personally, I would love to direct an animated short. But a lot of us know more about cameras than about 3D modeling and animation.

[Mattykins]

Guys,

Raptor and I discussed this. We changed the fest to CG Fest so we could incorporate VFX and full CG integration. Since technically everything you do in AE is basically CG at the truest extent of the definition. Maybe next time we will make this more clear.

And I understand the time constraint. We tried to keep it going once a month to allow it to move along. Though I am feeling the pressure here on my entry with a month. I am trying something new - and it's kicking my ass.

Needless to say, I also have a lot on my plate. We might be adjusting the time frame pending discussion from this feedback.

Raptor and I have several ideas for fest entries. Some are going to be the format you see now. We give you genre - you make it happen. Nothing's stopping you from gathering footage yourself to matchmove. We tried to keep it open and allow nearly everything. Other ideas are based on workshop. Where you need to matchmove something. Or you need to do this or that.

Ideas for fests are tough. Raptor and I had a list of like twenty concepts. I ruled 3/4ths of them as "stupidly impossible to do".

A name adjustment is certainly an option now. I look forward to hearing what others have to say. And no worries about the criticism. We asked for it - we need it. This failed twice before.

-Matt

[triplej96]

I will be posting updates when I get them :). Should be shooting my plates on Sunday or Monday. In the meantime I'm going to start some modeling. A CG fest is cool maybe if you changed the name to VFX fest that would draw more people?

[Gord.T]

Appreciate the feedback everyone.

I'll be sitting down with Mattykins next week and we'll look at everyones
concerns and see if we can't get some of this straightend out.

For starters I guess we need to clarify the rules. There appears to have
been a lot of confusion in that regard. Possibly revert the name back to
VFXFest and maybe extend this fest given the above.

I'm also behind on my entry due to rendering another gig but should have time next week to get more work done on it.

Keep those crits coming and maybe we'll get this thing off the ground.
Thanks again.

[oneinfiniteloop]

I definitely would like to enter, but timelines for this kind of stuff can vary widely and you can obviously get mired down trying to perfect something. Ultimately, I think that's the problem, people get discouraged because they can't get exactly what's in their head out in the time allotted. I don't think more time is necessarily the cure for this, so I'll propose this:

Although I like the idea of having such an open format, I think that's where the problem may lie. An open slate will cause people to think and re-think everything they do. With a tighter set of rules, boundaries to work within, then people will be forced to get really creative and execute faster. For example, give an image, footage, sound, whatever, then set out rules as to what the final output should be. Maybe give time restrictions, etc to further tighten it up. That way there is one output and each user can focus on that one thing. You could also set it up in a tiered fashion to where 3D people have a route they can follow, compositors have a route they can follow, etc.

Just my two cents, I look at competitions like Photoshop/AE Tennis, those 15 minute competitions (forgot the name), the SIGGRAPH Fjord competition...they all had restrictions that helped refine the output. Either way, I'm hoping I can put something together for this...

[Matt Grunau]

I think regardless of how many people enter, it will be a learning experience for others. There are plenty who don't feel their talents are up to those who will participate, and they will be content to observe. From that angle, it is still important.

[TowerFan]

"When I see and talk to people about CG they think Toy Story or Beowolf. Pure CG, no film. When you think in terms of VFX you think, The Matrix, Batman, Supernatural, etc. While VFX covers CG the reverse is not true."

I agree that the name of the fest may be misleading as to what the requirements are. Maybe change the name back to VFXFest and define what is eligible. I think the timing of 6 weeks or so is fine.

I hope people aren't intimidated by the participants and avoid entering. I'm just a hobbyist, mostly a modeler at this point, but I'm going to give it a go anyhow. If people look at my work and say "What a joke", so be it. I'll learn from constructive crits and others' WIPs. The whole point is to have fun while learning something new.

:beer:

[oneinfiniteloop]

CG stands for "computer graphics", so anything "graphic" generated by a "computer" qualifies, IMO. Obviously the common connotation and denotation are different, but I think we should keep that in mind.

[Jason Ramsey]

Give it some time to grow and evolve...

later,
jason

[Gord.T]

I wanted to quickly (?) touch on a couple things until Mattykins and I get
together. We do put a lot of thought into our decisions so it'll be a few
days yet before we update with any changes.



...
I wasn't sure I understood the rules of the fest. I didn't know the running
time requirements. I've noticed in a past fest that the clips were maybe 10
seconds long?


We didn't include a time limit but capped the upload at 10MB compressed.
Because of the render times and work involved I would think most entries
would fall under the 10 second mark, but we wanted to leave room for others
that could do more. From a team for example.

We're trying to keep the restrictions to a minimum and not stifle anyone.
The most one could expect to squeeze into 10mb is around 1 minute would be
my guess, not that anyone is going to, but it's there if needed.



I thought of writing a short supernatural scene, shooting it with my HVX
then using AE for VFX to sell it. But when I saw some of the WIP threads I
realized that I was WAY off the mark. It seemed that CGFest requires 3D,
MAYA, etc. and not compositing with AE.
...


The Wips are representative of what those entrants are doing.
In the Offical Rules thread I answered a couple of questions that indicates
AE is allowed. So is compositing but I understand those rules were not
clear so we're looking at that.

What your proposing to do though is fine so if you still feel like
entering, please do. We may extend a week considering the confusion, if your concerned about time.



...
I was interested in working with some CG people on something, but the
bigger fests have much longer deadlines. I've done CG as a hobby, but not
professionally, and I know exactly zero CG artists personally, so I most
certainly wouldn't be able to get anything of any quality together by the
22nd of December by myself.


We are allowing stills as well. It does not have to be a video.
It also does not even have to be a visual effect per se. It can be an art still
or matte done in photoshop for example. Again, we need to calrify that
better.

As I'll mention further down we're also looking at ways to get the film guys with vfx needs involved with our guys in this fest.



...Here, you have to model, texture, rig, potentially animate and render
out your still or animation in the same amount of time.


Not at all. You're allowed to incorporate stock footage, stills and music.
You can also use stock models. Either existing ones you have, downloaded or
bought. The reasoning behind that is like you mentioned
expecting people to model thier entire scene, if they choose to do 3D,
would be too much. And after all, they are just props to construct a scene.
We didn't make that clear.




Just off the top of my head, what you could do is provide some footage and
tell people they have to match-move it and integrate something, anything
into the video.


We will be doing something like that every now and then.
We already have one person willing to provide footage that was taken
specifically to be tracked, that is, a bit shakey.
I've also contacted another to provide some existing footage for this fest
for those who may want to use it, but I have not heard back.
But yes we will be doing those types of things periodically.



Or possibly make it a full-blown DVXFest, where you have to make a short,
maybe 4 or 5 minutes or less, that involve at least X CG shots, or be
entirely CG. I don't know, something where you could involve the filmmakers
here who I'm sure would love to work with you guys. Personally, I would
love to direct an animated short. But a lot of us know more about cameras
than about 3D modeling and animation.

A full blown animation short would takes months if not a couple years imo.
However, with the 10mb cap in place as it is now, a one minute short is open if anyone wants to tackle it. Besides, animations are currently allowed in the dvxfests I believe.

However, we are trying to keep in tune with what's happening in the dvxfest area.
Lossfest was a bit of a tough one to parallel against.

We're also keeping our eyes open for ways to tie what's going on here into
the dvxfest. Details are still to be worked out.
Any suggestions are welcome.


...people get discouraged because they can't
get exactly what's in their head out in the time allotted.


True. That's is something I go through virtually everyday, and yes, being
consitently creative can be nerve wracking. There are up days and down days and 'how the hell am I going to do this' days.
But that's what we chose to do so there's no escaping it. :)



Although I like the idea of having such an open format, I think that's
where the problem may lie. An open slate will cause people to think and
re-think everything they do. With a tighter set of rules, boundaries to
work within, then people will be forced to get really creative and execute
faster. For example, give an image, footage, sound, whatever, then set out
rules as to what the final output should be.


We will be shaking things up like that from time to time. One thing is some
of the workshops will limit entrants to those with some skills in that area
and leave others out. Maybe in that case they could team up.

Also we're trying something different and not following what other fests
are doing. We are trying to keep the creative door open to as many people
as possible. Most other fests are pretty specific to one area.
Whereas film and graphics cover a broader range, at least here they do.
And we would also like to include art for art's sake and not limit it to
visual effects per se.


I think regardless of how many people enter, it
will be a learning experience for others. There are plenty who don't feel
their talents are up to those who will participate, and they will be
content to observe. From that angle, it is still important.


Yes it is. I know some people may feel intimidated but it really comes down
to how comfortable a person is with putting an entry out to public scrutiny.
I know the dvxfest has the gammut from beginners and pros. I think most
people tend to attack it from the point of view of raising thier own bar
and getting feedback on how to improve.

Not an easy thing to do and getting bashed in the reviews while
uncomfortable mostly at first, I believe is invaluable.
Personally, participating in the dvxfest helped me to identify my strengths and weaknesses and has greatly contributed to why I'm still doing CG here at dvx today as opposed to say, writing and directing, haha. I had fun doing it too though. Hope to do another.


CG stands for "computer graphics", so
anything "graphic" generated by a "computer" qualifies, IMO. Obviously the
common connotation and denotation are different, but I think we should keep
that in mind.

In a nutshell that was my thinking. I have a huge opinion on that subject
and how we went about creating this fest, but it would be a couple pages.

Right now I just wanted to go over some of more immediate misconceptions
until we can address the rules in more detail later in the week.

Oh yeah...

Give it some time to grow and evolve...
later,
jason

Yeah, well, you know me. :) Going off the handle again but I'm glad I
brought it up and for getting everyones feedback.
It will take us awhile to get sorted for sure.

[Neal Buconjic]

Nice, thoughtful post, Raptor.

[triplej96]

Great post indeed Raptor! I hope to contribute to my wip thread soon I've been really busy.


Josh

[peggylee]

so...as the new idjit here. We just post it as a WIP? or will we upload it to a certain place? I've been playing with cg a bit and might be fun to try. or...did I miss the thread by reading it all too fast?

[triplej96]

Post a wip thread and eventually their will be a place to upload the final piece.

[peggylee]

Gracias! I love playng with this stuff.

[Tom Marshall]

So are you guys going to post, I guess, mock ups of what the final version will look like or no?

[triplej96]

So are you guys going to post, I guess, mock ups of what the final version will look like or no?

Good question :).

[Mattykins]

So are you guys going to post, I guess, mock ups of what the final version will look like or no?

It is entirely up to the artist. We encourage you to do so. However - you don't have to post the current render in your WIP post.

[Gord.T]

What's up guys? How's everyone doing?

[TowerFan]

Too busy working on my entry to post...

[pia12254]

Hey guys,

I've been keeping an eye on this contest because I would love to see VFX collaboration grow on these boards! :-) I would like to provide my thoughts on how to generate more interest/involvement. I know some of this will be redundant from what others have said but here goes:

- Change name to "VFXFest - Supernatural" (or equivalent...CG was a little confusing to me as well)
- Make it more focused/specific (i.e. "Has to be between 5-15 seconds long. Include a matchmove element...etc.)
- I think would be mutually beneficial to incorporate FX work from various films being made by members of these forums. For example, you could ask filmmakers to submit a shot from their film that needs some VFX work. The competition could then be to choose one of the shots and submit it or you guys could narrow it down to a specific shot each week/month/quarter and everyone works on the same shot (a bit easier to compare/judge/vote). That way the filmmaker might actually get something that he can use and the winner can have his VFX work in a film!

Anyway, I know it is often a tiresome and thankless job to put together something like this and I REALLY, REALLY appreciate the work you guys are putting into this! Don't give up!

Daniel

[Horncastle]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for organizing this - here's my (rather late) feedback. I did have a look at the rules/threads when you first launched the Fest. However, the deadline at that time was Dec 20th and since I did Scriptfest 3, which I have just finished reading/commenting on, I decided I didn't have time to enter here. Now I see the deadline has been extended. At this point there's still not much time though, so unless I can knock up something simple quickly ... Anyway, please keep doing them - I think they can definitely be worthwhile. Some thoughts:

1. Try and keep the deadlines away from the deadlines/voting/commenting periods of other fests on the forum.
2. Keep in mind that the really hard core CG guys are probably going to be more attracted to competitions at places such as CGSociety.
3. I'm afraid I disagree with pia12254 - don't make it too focused/specific. It's a huge wide area, different people do different things. Make it a fest where different people can play around with different techniques - stills, mattes, modelling, animation, green screen, motion tracking. I think a fest where people can do as much or as little as they want is more likely to get off the ground in my opinion. It's not about winning, after all, (although it's always nice!!) - it's about experimenting, having fun, swapping ideas and opinions...

Keep it up and good luck to all the entries.
Jason

[Gord.T]

Appreciate the feedback Horncastle. (Bear in mind the time of year. :beer:)



1. Try and keep the deadlines away from the deadlines/voting/commenting
periods of other fests on the forum.

Noteworthy. Thanks.



2. Keep in mind that the really hard core CG guys are probably going to be
more attracted to competitions at places such as CGSociety.

lol. Sorry man. Those places have nothing on what's going on here. Those
are strictly 3D formats. This is primarily a film site. What we do, 'we' as
in the 'other guys' far outways what any standard 3D artist on those sites
are doing. This is not just 3D, it's everything under the sun. No
competition at all imo. They are welcome to join in and compete if they
want. Last I heard, I do believe you can not even mention dvxuser at that
site without getting it deleted. Soooooo.
Like I say, they are welcome here. We don't discriminate. :)



3. I'm afraid I disagree with pia12254 - don't make it too
focused/specific. It's a huge wide area, different people do different
things. Make it a fest where different people can play around with
different techniques - stills, mattes, modelling, animation, green screen,
motion tracking. I think a fest where people can do as much or as little as
they want is more likely to get off the ground in my opinion. It's not
about winning, after all, (although it's always nice!!) - it's about
experimenting, having fun, swapping ideas and opinions...


I agree. The thing I'm really most concerned about is keeping all creative
doors open.
Not so much for what we know we can do, but for those that can introduce
new concepts, ideas and methods. It's what we "haven't" seen yet is what I
think we need to let nurture, instead of saying 'do this','do that'. But as
said before, that also has it's place because that's real world work.
So we'll try and juggle both between real working jobs and open ended
creativity.

And I agree it's not about winning, at all. It's about sharing most of all and I think that's where most of the trouble lies. There seems to be a lot of 'I have to protect my ideas and work' but I don't think that's the case.

Anyways, hehe, really appreciate the feedback man and we're listening.
Thanks man.

[Horncastle]

Those are strictly 3D formats.

Actually there is a lot of 2D going on there too, but the important thing is:


This is primarily a film site. ... This is not just 3D, it's everything under the sun.

and, above all, this:


It's what we "haven't" seen yet is what I think we need to let nurture, instead of saying 'do this','do that'.

Sounds like you're on the right track :)
Jason

[Gord.T]

Hi Guys. I made a minor change to my initial opening post. We're looking at having some corporate sponsors dropping in throughout the new year that are family oriented. Thanks for your understanding. :)

[MrFluffy]

What changes, I could not see any? Can you specify the changes here for clarity please.

[Gord.T]

I just fixed a couple of spelling mistakes. :Drogar-Love(DBG):

[Gord.T]

Well, it's pretty difficult to get this fest off the ground without feedback. Cat's got everyones tongue?
The bottom line is there is an obvious lack of interest right across the board.

There are many reasons for that. Too many in fact to get into.

A bit of my own feed back:

I can't count recently how many people I've seen that have had "VFX Artist" tagged into their sig. I suppose that goes along the same lines as "Film Maker, Director, Writer...". It doesn't mean anything; it just looks good on a sig. Unfortunately that dilutes the meaning for the ones that actually live it imo. CGI, not Visual Effects specifically is a very difficullt job to do right. If you consider the scope of what CGI and VFX covers you might start getting an idea.

With this fest I hoped to introduce people to the various areas that CGI covers. There are enough subjects to cover the next couple years. Maybe that's the wrong approach, so what is the right one?

Who can motion track, use photogammetry tools, do Mattes, model inanimate objects and characters, texture and paint them, animate objects and characters, CC, particle effects like smoke, water, flames, oceans, realistically, maybe tornadoes too, terrains-earth like and alien, ect, plus write, direct and edit your multipass renders so they look half decent? It's pretty tough for a one man show. I personally have never met anyone that didn't specialize in a given area of CGI, that was any good. Including anyone who had "VFX Artist" in thier sig. God that's annoying.

So, I think, the CGIFest is destined to fail because, quite frankly, it's too hard.
No one can do it. And the ones that can have better things to do.

So...I'm just an administer of this fest, and I'm sure to cease my participation at the end of the current fest, however if someone else has an interest in continuing it up, contact Jason.
Otherwise I'll finish up here and, barring anyone else stepping in, run the dvxfest leaders fest at the end of the year.

Thanks to everyone that participated and worked behind the scenes, Mattykins and TowerFan to note.

[Mattykins]

Raptor,

I am chiming in here after a long absence. I've worked with VFX for a little while. I helped some people out with basic stuff. I am doing a lot of the VFX on my latest piece. But fact of the matter is this thing has been through numerous revisions. Version 1 ended in bickering. Version 1.1 ended due to lack of interest. Version 2.0 had hiccups. Version 2.1A didn't do so hot either.

I think we were lacking in time. It takes hours and hours. Nothing hurts more than rendering out a scene and noticing something that went astray and having to repeat the process. Even a few frames at several hours per frame. It's exhausting.

There is a ton of work to do in these entries. Digital Domain and ILM employ the vast amount of people they do for a reason. Few people I've met can hold their own alone.

I am personally sad to see this the way it is. I took on a supervisory role that really didn't exist a while ago. Raptor and I gave it our all a while back. Lots of emailing, IMing, joking, spellchecking, and revising went into the revision of this fest.

And I agree, it's a hard one. I wish the best for anyone that takes it on, if they ever take it on again. I will always be here for a PM idea bounce or a supervision role in a new reincarnation should anyone want to take me up on it.

But to everyone who participated, it was awesome. Thanks guys for letting this new revision go on for so long.

[Gord.T]

...Digital Domain and ILM employ the vast amount of people they do for a reason. Few people I've met can hold their own alone.
...


I agree. I've spent the better part of this year learning new software and it's getting to the point where I'm spreading myself too thin and can't get anything done. Man oh man, it's just an endless amount of learning.

It's a shame we couldn't get the fest to fly. I don't have any answers other than letting someone else take another crack at it if they like. I've lost my ambition to run it now so it's better I move along I think.

I started working on a picture last night and continuing with it today, as a stress reliever of sorts. I'll probably post a wip in the 3D area later today. I haven't done one of these in a while but I enjoy it.

[John LaBonney]

Fellas:

First of all, I appreciate your efforts on this fest.

I'm not sure that I agree that it hasn't been all that successful. The third contest had a pretty good selection of entrants, and while I don't know how #4 is looking, I decided not to enter that one as the project didn't really excite me all that much. But to each his own.

I encourage you to keep going and continue CGIFest. It may seem like not much is happening over a long period of time, but consider it anyway. I would concentrate on the challenges themselves and make them appealing to a wide an audience as possible.

Thanks guys!

[Gord.T]

A couple replies in 2 months speak plenty for me. I can't run a fest if there isn't one. The previous fests were fine. The past 2 fests drew zero responses. So, hey, I had to arrive at a decision. I'm not against the fest, I'm for it. If I as head of the fest can't keep it going then I need to step aside and let someone else try. That's how it works in my book. The job's open to anyone who wants it, just contact Jason.


The DvxFest leader fest will still happen at the end of the year, regardless of who oversees it, or if ofcourse dvxuser decides otherwise, it's still on as planned. So there's still a good 5 months left for that. Surely, no excuses about not enough time to get one in. (which reminds me).

[MrFluffy]

I for one would rather spend my time creating CG for films in the main Fest area. This pushes the boundaries in the best way and so I wont have time for the CGI Fests. This may be true for other users.