Sell my XHA1 to buy HPX170, a good idea?

[Spotlight Media]

Hello folks. I have been doing some research on the HPX170 and the HVX200a. I am trying to decide whether or not it would be a wise move to sell 1 of my XHA1 and purchase, most likely, the HPX170. I currently have 2 XHA1's that shoot to Firestore FS-C drives. 1 camera is usually on a crane and the other on sticks or handheld, or both roaming during a live performance. These cameras are great and I have no real beef with them, other than the HDV codec at times, and the fact the Firestore drives do become somewhat of a hindrance. And setting these cameras up with the FS-C on a Steadycam is also a bit of lesson in patience.

I like having 2 of the same cameras, that makes it much easier in post. But I would like to find a camera that is a little nicer on the steadicam and I am enticed by the P2 workflow and a codec that is a little nicer to use, a bit more professional, and a better choice for green screen work. I am also beginning to flirt with the idea of doing work with another guy that does a lot for broadcast, and I have found out that the XHA1's are not taken seriously in the broadcast world. I figured that this was the case from the beginning but I did not realize how true it really was, I have been told point blank that if I want to be taken seriously I should at least own an HVX or an HPX. Again, I thought this would be the case but thinking and being told by many people in broadcast the same thing really cements the thought in your head.

So, I wanted to find out what you folks thought or maybe if anyone else is going through the same type situation. I am at the point where I am so over informed I feel like just sticking with what I have until technology unveils its next marvel. So any helpful advice from you pros would be... helpful.

[Spartacus]

I´d also consider two 150s, you won´t get the benefits of DVCproHD but at least it´s tapeless (and offers CHEAP tapeless...)
The picture quality seems to be quite nice and the keys people showed here were clean enough...

[Spotlight Media]

Thanks Spartacus, but would I be wrong in thinking that might be a step backwards? Those cameras are AVCHD correct? Is that codec not even MORE processor intensive than the HDV codec? If I make a move I certainly want to go forward toward a more efficient codec and a more professional camera. Am I wrong?

[sewolla]

I would say DO NOT sell your A1. If you do, you likely will not have a means of playing back any tapes you have shot, so if you should need to re-create a file you could not do it. Also, I would make sure you are really happy with the new workflow before you sell.

[Chris Santucci]

I would say DO NOT sell your A1. If you do, you likely will not have a means of playing back any tapes you have shot, so if you should need to re-create a file you could not do it. Also, I would make sure you are really happy with the new workflow before you sell.


I bought a Canon HV 10 to use as a deck after upgrading from the XH-A1.

.

[Newman]

I'm sorry but this might not be the answer you're looking for but i just have to put it out there;...sounds to me like you're making excuses to get rid of your camera,..you knew the A1 wasnt consider "pro" from broadcaster BEFORE you get the camera and now you're using the same reason to get rid of it. you know the A1 is a VERY GOOD CAMERA for what you're doing.
and you know, the hvx or hpx will maybe change your workflow but will not have a big impact on your end result (please people, correct me if i'm wrong); because to the client what really matters is the end result.

There's this saying in french "Qui veut noyer son chien l'accuse de rage".

ok, a little bit of confession, i'm on the same boat, i just sold my A1 to get the EX1, so who am i to tell you what to get. but people tell me that i dont need it once they see my work with the A1: http://www.vimeo.com/1367409 (music video) and http://www.vimeo.com/1159835 (live performance for an african memorial day party).

but then again, that just me.....if it wil improve your workflow, and your end result, go for it !

[Mac]

I made several documentaries with the combination of XL H1 and A1... One of them played nationally on PBS through APT... I never experienced any problems with the HDV workflow (I was editing with FCP6 on a G5)... I used a Black Magic card and once it was up and running I treated it exactly like DV without a hitch...

That said, the Panasonic cameras have advantages in terms of color space, tapeless workflow and true 24p - and changing scene files is a real knob, instead of a button-activated menu function (which I accidentally changed on the A1 many times). I have recently intercut older footage from the A1 with new footage from my HPX500 (converting the A1 material to 24p in Magic Bullet), and the differences are noticeable if they are side-by-side, but not if they are separated.

I also have an HVX200, which I am not crazy about... It's my B camera, and I use it mainly in cars because it's small. I think the 200 is pretty clumsy - the 170's probably more like the A1... But as an easy-to-use intuitive camera, the A1 is a good choice. I don't use auto focus or OIS much, but if you do, both are much better on the A1.

Where the Panasonic line really shines is in it's ability to look more like film... The Canon's are tweakable of course, but whereas they got the auto-focus and OIS down, they missed the boat on CINE gamma, etc.

[Spotlight Media]

Great responses, this is exactly what I am looking for as I have no way to rent or use one of these cameras. Now I am not really "looking" for an excuse to get rid of 1 of my A1's. I like the A1 very much and I don't have problems with the HDV codec truly. I have just read and heard so much on the DVPROHD codec and how it is better for green screen work, more pro, etc. I use an Mac Pro so rendering is not a real problem. But all this information about these Pana cameras have made me curious enough to ask the questions I have asked. As I said before, I could go without having to piggyback a clunky Firestore drive on the A1 that would be helpful but if I am not going to gain all that much then there is no point.

[puredrifting]

If you are a professional and are making money with the setup you have, upgrading to an HVX or HPX would be an unwise business move. In this economy, I think people that are "upgrading just to upgrade" are wasting their money, especially if their clients seem happy with the end product they are producing with their current cameras.

BTW, just so you know, the HVX and HPX are not regarded very highly as "broadcast cameras" either by those who can afford to shoot film or on 2/3" chip cameras. The term "broadcast camera" has really lost all meaning anyway as there is material shot on your camera, the HVX and HPX that is broadcast daily on cable networks. Am I mistaken or is the "Crank 2" also shot on your camera? Most people who shoot with REDs, 2/3" cameras ot film regard all 1/3" and 1/4" cameras as toys anyway, but who cares? It's not the camera, it's what you can do wit the camera you have, your skills at lighting, composition, movement, etc. I have seen a lot of amazingly great footage shot on XH-A1s.

My advice is to save your money or invest it in something safe, like gold or silver. Video gear is like computer gear, outdated the day you buy it with poor re-sale value. The XH-A1 is a fine camera tht is totally capable of beautiful images. "Upgrading" to the Pannys for the type of work like it sounds like you shoot would be a monetary waste.

I would only advise buying new gear if you can pay for it solely with your job rentals for the gear to your clients within 6 months. I can, which is why I upgraded from the HVX to HPX170 recently, but if I was doing events or lower end work that didn't pay as much, I would have stuck with the HVX, it was definitely good enough for my clients.

Good luck,

Dan

[Mac]

Another point worth considering... If you want to use a lens adapter like the Red Rock, the Canon A1 has a nice feature where you can set focus and zoom in memory, I miss that a lot on the HVX...

If you spend that cash that's burning a hole in your pocket on a lens adapter and some nice Nikon lenses, a monitor and a matte box, and get a little practice with it, you will impress your clients...

[Mac]

Oh, and I completely agree with puredrifting's comments - at some point it really is a case of realizing "Hey, the emperor's not wearing any clothes"...

[reem12]

I had 2 canon a1s and sold one and kept 1 along with an hv20 INORDER TO UPGRAADE to an hvx200a. I shoot alot of events for money while shooting indi films for my passion and hopefuly one day a proffession. All I can say is for indi filmaking there is no other camera to me in this price range that offers closest to film as this cam, but the a1s for events I kept an a1. so I now have the best of both worlds.

Hvx200a = indi films

Canon a1 = events

[Spartacus]

Thanks Spartacus, but would I be wrong in thinking that might be a step backwards? Those cameras are AVCHD correct? Is that codec not even MORE processor intensive than the HDV codec? If I make a move I certainly want to go forward toward a more efficient codec and a more professional camera. Am I wrong?
Hm, I really have no clue, that´s the charm of DVCpro50/HD, it´s easy on postpro side...
But as said others here: if your clients are happy, why bother? For your buddy doing broadcast work: just get a RR mattebox and shoulder mount and you will have "the look".
Image wise the A1 will be good enough for most stuff, maybe not for primetime documentary, but for regular TV it should sell...

[Mac]

As for broadcast, you have to realize that programmers are deluged with submissions, so many that they could never watch them all - and the preliminary viewings are usually done by career threatened underlings who find it safer to just say no - so they will often find an easy way, like camera guide-lines, to weed out the "non-professionals".

But the fact is, if the film is something they want, they'll take it even if it was shot on a cell phone (that actually happened recently).

[puredrifting]

As for broadcast, you have to realize that programmers are deluged with submissions, so many that they could never watch them all - and the preliminary viewings are usually done by career threatened underlings who find it safer to just say no - so they will often find an easy way, like camera guide-lines, to weed out the "non-professionals".

But the fact is, if the film is something they want, they'll take it even if it was shot on a cell phone (that actually happened recently).

I totally agree, except these days, the programmers as well as the underlings are "career threatened". I have been doing a lot of work for Paramount this year and things are very bleak at all of the studios and networks, more big layoffs are eminent.

Camera and format guidelines are somewhat passe now anyway, even Discovery is taking 100% HVX originated shows now for air. Content has been and always be king. Produce and shoot something great and you might be able to sell it but if you don't, it won't be because of format. Heck, almost every prime time show that airs on the Travel Channel is shot on the Z1 (Bizarre Foods) or the V1 (Anthony Bourdain No Reservations) and the A1 looks better than either of those cameras.

Anyone who is using format as an excuse for not producing something great is deluded.

Dan

[KyleProhaska]

I totally agree, except these days, the programmers as well as the underlings are "career threatened". I have been doing a lot of work for Paramount this year and things are very bleak at all of the studios and networks, more big layoffs are eminent.

Camera and format guidelines are somewhat passe now anyway, even Discovery is taking 100% HVX originated shows now for air. Content has been and always be king. Produce and shoot something great and you might be able to sell it but if you don't, it won't be because of format. Heck, almost every prime time show that airs on the Travel Channel is shot on the Z1 (Bizarre Foods) or the V1 (Anthony Bourdain No Reservations) and the A1 looks better than either of those cameras.

Anyone who is using format as an excuse for not producing something great is deluded.

Dan

I"ll be quoting pieces of this reply for other things in the future lol...

[Spotlight Media]

puredrifting, mac and all the others that posted a reply... thank you very much for taking the time to put some thought into this. I had a subdued gut feeling that keeping what I have would be the smartest business move but not having all the experience you folks have led me to drift from that gut feeling. But after reading your insights I believe my gut to be right in keeping the XHA1's. Like I said originally the picture on this camera is wonderful and works beautifully for my work and my clients so far have been more than impressed with the image quality of the spots I have provided. In short retrospect I might have been wondering if the HPX170 would be the "perfect" camera for me, but I am realizing there is probably not going to be a perfect camera for my business... but close enough certainly works.
Cheers to you all and Merry Christmas!
Jason

[Mac]

Green Tree... As puredrifting said above, much of the hype we are fed is sales oriented... There will always be people who need the latest thing - car, motorcycle, cell phone or camera - even if it's only a color change... That's good for the bottom line of manufacturers who plan new models before the current ones are even released - and, to be fair, need to cover their R&D costs...

But we have reached a point where everything currently available camera-wise is potentially so good (depending on the user) that I defy anyone except an anal engineer type to notice the difference in normal viewing situations...

Technology will advance... we have to be smart and wait for the really significant improvements before jumping on another costly band wagon...

Red may have the answer, it may be the "Prius" of the digital future... But for now, its a good idea for all of us to be happy with what we have if its doing the job...

[thefilmgeek]

I had 2 canon a1s and sold one and kept 1 along with an hv20 INORDER TO UPGRAADE to an hvx200a. I shoot alot of events for money while shooting indi films for my passion and hopefuly one day a proffession. All I can say is for indi filmaking there is no other camera to me in this price range that offers closest to film as this cam, but the a1s for events I kept an a1. so I now have the best of both worlds.

Hvx200a = indi films

Canon a1 = events

The XH-A1 is quite suited for indie film, in fact. Great resolution, all the control you need, easy workflow with a Firestore. Don't let the panasonic fanboys steer you away. ;) Bottom line is, if you just have to have the most expensive camera in the range, buy an HVX, it costs the most. But an XH-A1 will do anything you need to do for filmmaking.

[Spartacus]

Bottom line is, if you just have to have the most expensive camera in the range, buy an HVX, it costs the most.
Besides being purely subjective, your statement is wrong.

[dantewaters]

If you are a professional and are making money with the setup you have, upgrading to an HVX or HPX would be an unwise business move. In this economy, I think people that are "upgrading just to upgrade" are wasting their money, especially if their clients seem happy with the end product they are producing with their current cameras.

BTW, just so you know, the HVX and HPX are not regarded very highly as "broadcast cameras" either by those who can afford to shoot film or on 2/3" chip cameras. The term "broadcast camera" has really lost all meaning anyway as there is material shot on your camera, the HVX and HPX that is broadcast daily on cable networks. Am I mistaken or is the "Crank 2" also shot on your camera? Most people who shoot with REDs, 2/3" cameras ot film regard all 1/3" and 1/4" cameras as toys anyway, but who cares? It's not the camera, it's what you can do wit the camera you have, your skills at lighting, composition, movement, etc. I have seen a lot of amazingly great footage shot on XH-A1s.

My advice is to save your money or invest it in something safe, like gold or silver. Video gear is like computer gear, outdated the day you buy it with poor re-sale value. The XH-A1 is a fine camera tht is totally capable of beautiful images. "Upgrading" to the Pannys for the type of work like it sounds like you shoot would be a monetary waste.

I would only advise buying new gear if you can pay for it solely with your job rentals for the gear to your clients within 6 months. I can, which is why I upgraded from the HVX to HPX170 recently, but if I was doing events or lower end work that didn't pay as much, I would have stuck with the HVX, it was definitely good enough for my clients.

Good luck,

Dan

Mannnnn Dan great advice got me thinking about a few purchases.

How you been?

[nantnee]

[quote=dantewaters;1532441]Mannnnn Dan great advice got me thinking about a few purchases.
quote]

agreed

[Spotlight Media]

Thank you all for your posts, I have sat on this idea of switching formats and cameras while taking your advice into account in order to let the excitement dust settle. Purchases can be emotional but advice and time usually remedy that problem. With that said I am considering the HPX-170 because of weight/no need for a firestore sitting on top of the camera while on a steadicam pilot. Also I do a lot of recording performances where light is low so I have been trying to find out which camera is better in low light... the XHA1 or the HPX170.

[Spotlight Media]

If you are a professional and are making money with the setup you have, upgrading to an HVX or HPX would be an unwise business move. In this economy, I think people that are "upgrading just to upgrade" are wasting their money, especially if their clients seem happy with the end product they are producing with their current cameras.

BTW, just so you know, the HVX and HPX are not regarded very highly as "broadcast cameras" either by those who can afford to shoot film or on 2/3" chip cameras. The term "broadcast camera" has really lost all meaning anyway as there is material shot on your camera, the HVX and HPX that is broadcast daily on cable networks. Am I mistaken or is the "Crank 2" also shot on your camera? Most people who shoot with REDs, 2/3" cameras ot film regard all 1/3" and 1/4" cameras as toys anyway, but who cares? It's not the camera, it's what you can do wit the camera you have, your skills at lighting, composition, movement, etc. I have seen a lot of amazingly great footage shot on XH-A1s.

My advice is to save your money or invest it in something safe, like gold or silver. Video gear is like computer gear, outdated the day you buy it with poor re-sale value. The XH-A1 is a fine camera tht is totally capable of beautiful images. "Upgrading" to the Pannys for the type of work like it sounds like you shoot would be a monetary waste.

I would only advise buying new gear if you can pay for it solely with your job rentals for the gear to your clients within 6 months. I can, which is why I upgraded from the HVX to HPX170 recently, but if I was doing events or lower end work that didn't pay as much, I would have stuck with the HVX, it was definitely good enough for my clients.

Good luck,

Dan
Another thing, has anyone tested the XH A1 and the HPX170 in low light? I have a fairly large amount of work from college auditions and performances that are generally on stage so low light is of great importance to me. One reason why I bought 2 XH A1s. Not being able to rent anywhere in my area I wanted to know if the HPX170 (even with 1/3" chips) would be a better performer in low light than the XH A1. I really am not looking for an excuse to sell the XHA1 but rather looking for the best solutions.

[puredrifting]

I am not really sure what the XA-H1 is rated. We rate the HPX170 at ISO 500 and the HVX200 at ISO 320 when shooting 24p with a 180 degree shutter.

Any DPs out there rated the XA-H1? It has small chips like the HVX/HPX, so I can't see it being rated any better than these two cameras.

Dan