Scene files am I missing something???

[indybones]

Hi peeps

Can some one enlighten me about scene files please...

When applying them am I right in thinking that you can change things like the blacks, mids, highlights, the saturation, tones, hues, sharpness etc..??

However all of this type of thing can be done in post production with FCP and various plug ins.

Am i missing the point here with scene files, some one told me that if you record the cleanest image in camera then it's best to alter colors, tones etc in post.

Thanks for your help and wisdom

Indy

[DM_rider]

Hi peeps

Can some one enlighten me about scene files please...

When applying them am I right in thinking that you can change things like the blacks, mids, highlights, the saturation, tones, hues, sharpness etc..??

However all of this type of thing can be done in post production with FCP and various plug ins.

Am i missing the point here with scene files, some one told me that if you record the cleanest image in camera then it's best to alter colors, tones etc in post.

Thanks for your help and wisdom

Indy

I always try to shoot as close to my final look as possible. If I have a certain final look that I am going for that involves drastic changes to the image, I usually shoot with a pretty straight forward scene file. It just depends on the look you're going for.

[Nexis]

Imo, it is a mistake to think you can always fix stuff in post. There are many things you can NOT fix (or at least not completely) in post, at least not without having professionals do it at great expense, if at all.

One example - say your Master Pedestal is set too low and you crush the blacks in your footage too harshly. You will have forever lost some image data which you will NEVER get back, regardless of who is treating your footage in post. The data simply won't be there.

I'm sure there are many more examples.

The fact of the matter is that you should always try to get it as good as you can while shooting. You can't rely on technology to fix everything.

[thinkoffline]

As a working Flame Artist & VFX Supervisor my recommendation as an owner and user of the HVX200 is to shoot as flat as you can. That is to say with the highest dynamic range possible. An even distribution of luminance will provide you with the greatest scope for control in post. I never, never shoot without a waveform monitor to ensure that neither my highlights are blowing out nor my blacks are being crushed. This is paramount. For film look always shoot CineD rather than CineV. The slight contrast crunch that you will see can be achieved in post.

If accessible a vectorscope is paramount to ensuring an even color palette. From here you can dial things around in post a little. I have been pleasantly surprised by the range of movement within the coor space even when working with DVCproHD.

There are times that the scene files are important. Shutter angle is one. Of course speed is another etc. An incorrect setting here for example will result in too much motion blur which is diffficult to remove in post, but you can always add it!! ;) However, live by the rule that if you selectively exclude anything in production, you cannot get it back in post. Most particularly with a codec like DVCProHD which, while it is a wonderful codec, is highly compressed by post-production standards.

Much of the HVX's scene file settings are designed to help videographers whom have less access to high-end post production services. As technology improves and a greater number of tools are becoming accessible to prosumer users this may become less of an issues. However, if you are gunning for a very specific aesthetic and do not have access to such technology the scene file settings are a great place to start.

Experimentation is key - and lots of fun!

[puredrifting]

I never, never shoot without a waveform monitor to ensure that neither my highlights are blowing out nor my blacks are being crushed.

Another reason to trade up to an HPX170, love the built-in scopes, they are heavenly.

Dan

[indybones]

As a working Flame Artist & VFX Supervisor my recommendation as an owner and user of the HVX200 is to shoot as flat as you can. That is to say with the highest dynamic range possible. An even distribution of luminance will provide you with the greatest scope for control in post. I never, never shoot without a waveform monitor to ensure that neither my highlights are blowing out nor my blacks are being crushed. This is paramount. For film look always shoot CineD rather than CineV. The slight contrast crunch that you will see can be achieved in post.

If accessible a vectorscope is paramount to ensuring an even color palette. From here you can dial things around in post a little. I have been pleasantly surprised by the range of movement within the coor space even when working with DVCproHD.

There are times that the scene files are important. Shutter angle is one. Of course speed is another etc. An incorrect setting here for example will result in too much motion blur which is diffficult to remove in post, but you can always add it!! ;) However, live by the rule that if you selectively exclude anything in production, you cannot get it back in post. Most particularly with a codec like DVCProHD which, while it is a wonderful codec, is highly compressed by post-production standards.

Much of the HVX's scene file settings are designed to help videographers whom have less access to high-end post production services. As technology improves and a greater number of tools are becoming accessible to prosumer users this may become less of an issues. However, if you are gunning for a very specific aesthetic and do not have access to such technology the scene file settings are a great place to start.

Experimentation is key - and lots of fun!

Wow thank you guys and especially 'thinkoffline' for a very detailed reply of advice.

'Live by the rule that if you selectively exclude anything in production, you cannot get in back in post'

That's is to a certain extend what I can been told by a techi at Uni.

However I still don't really get the idea behind 'CineD' 'CineV' to achieve a filmic look.
What is a filmic look? (I know this has been discussed loads of times here so don't want to get into all of that again).
There seems to be so many things/looks/techniques that can make a filmic look, Bleach By-pass, color reversal, color push, crushed blacks, blown out highlights, tinted, simulated film stock, etc etc the list goes on. I guess it all is determined by what look the DOP and director are after that to a certain extend determines what a filmic look is.

Thanks again

Indy

[mrbrycel]

I've been shooting a lot with Barry Green's "filmic" scene file, and I've always loved how it looks. But is it a bad idea to shoot in such high contrast? Would CineD be a better choice? And add contrast in post? I don't have Magic Bullet or anything, but I do have AE. Will AE be able to do a good enough job?

[thinkoffline]

CineD & CineV essentially deal with luminance in a way that is closer to the way that film deals with it's interpretation of luminance. Video works in linear color space - film in logarithmic. The explanations of both are complicated but lets simplify it by assuming linear so be a straight line and logarithmic to be a curve. At the bottom end are the blacks (shadows) - at the top end the whites (highlights). Linear color space has a great coverage of the mid range (mid tones) but accelerates too quickly at either end for many chips/processors to capture detail in the black or white. The results in blacks being crushed and white blowing out. Hence, a small range of exposure and a very "video" look.

What CineD & CineV try to do is to simulate, albeit within the parameters of the DVCpro codec, is the fall off (shoulder and knee) of the gamma curve of the color space. Basically this means that rather than accelarating quickly away at either end of the graph the end reduce in speed maintaining more information of the whites and black over a greater distance.

This is all rather complicated and I have most likely made a pigs ear of trying to explain it which is tough without referring to an diagram but it basically means that CineD and CineV both provide you with greater deal in your shadows and highlight areas. The matrix of the camera works well to ensure as much information as possible is being captured. Some users like to use Bpress (I think it is) in lower light conditions as the matrix favors the darker ranges more than the lighter.

As a post person I need the widest range possible as I have access to very expensive post tool which is a luxury I know. I do not shoot with the additional contrast of CineV as I can add this is post - far harder to take this away.

If you have less access to post it will certainly help to make use of the functions within the camera to help to create a "look". But shoot clean for maximum control afterwards.

To answer mrbrycel - AE is fine for color, things like Magic Bullet or Apple's color are great for consumer/pro-sumer grading purposes and have some fun "looks" that you can use as a base to build from. But nothing beats a good eye and a calibrated monitor!!!

[mrbrycel]

thinkoffline, thanks for the information. I understand it is complicated, but I think you did a good job explaining it for the most part. I will probably switch to CineD from now on. I also have Apple Color, but I've never used it before. Are there any sites or tutorials you would recommend for Apple Color and/or AE color correction/grading?

[Postmaster]

So, any recomendations for "flat as possible" scenefile settings?

I did some tests with almost "milky" dialed Master Pedestal - came out quiete nice after post, but I´m not sure if it´s a major difference if I would have it shot with the factory cine D setting.

Frank