"Tiny Dancer" - a film by Jon Coy [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

Lawsuit_Boy

11-25-2008, 11:48 PM

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/poster_2.jpg

Things are lost at the most inconvenient of times, while others
are found at the most opportune. Josie, an alacritous
college dancer, loses the key to her dorm. With a strong desire to
return to her only local comfort zone, she sets out on a campus-wide
search to find the renegade key.

Writer/director: Jon Coy

Josie: Caroline Palma

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/9-22-2007-05_a.jpg

Also starring Nathan Johnson (photo coming).

Assistant director: Ryan Koppleman

Original music by Brian Gallagher.

We're keeping this project small and simple.

As far as equipment goes, I won't divulge everything, but I'll say we're shooting on a dvx-100a.

UPDATE 12-22-08: Principle photography begins tomorrow at Kent State University.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/tinydancer_24.jpg

Caroline in action! She walks through doorways marvelously. :thumbsup:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/tinydancer_25.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/tinydancer_23.jpg

Lawsuit_Boy

11-25-2008, 11:49 PM

Screen caps:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/dancergrab_3.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/tinydancer_9.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/dancergrab_1.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/dancergrab_4.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/dancergrab_6.jpg

:)

ZazaCast

11-25-2008, 11:51 PM

Welcome & best of luck!

Rodney V. Smith

11-25-2008, 11:55 PM

welcome dude. and good luck with the lawsuit(s)

pauly_the_hitman

11-26-2008, 01:19 AM

Cool can't wait to see what you got...
Pauly

stinkpot

11-26-2008, 08:27 AM

Excellent. Ohio is represented in this fest for sure! Looking forward to it.

:beer:

Lawsuit_Boy

11-30-2008, 09:04 PM

Small update with a photo of the lead posted up top.

Zak Forsman

11-30-2008, 09:56 PM

she has a compelling look. good choice for the lead.

Lawsuit_Boy

12-01-2008, 08:44 AM

Thanks Zak. I thought so as well. ;)

Lawsuit_Boy

12-01-2008, 11:14 PM

A couple of concept/test grabs are up.

We've also cast the other lead actor.

Zak Forsman

12-01-2008, 11:18 PM

is that the "anamorphic flare" effect from MB Looks? or did you do something in-camera. looks good. organic.

Lawsuit_Boy

12-01-2008, 11:21 PM

It's a special trick I discovered with the lens (that's actually not so special). So yeah, it's organic/optical. Glad you like it! :beer:

Zak Forsman

12-01-2008, 11:23 PM

divulge. what's the secret?

Michael Anthony Horrigan

12-02-2008, 09:07 AM

Also, what camera did you use?

Lawsuit_Boy

12-02-2008, 09:12 AM

We're shooting on a dvx-100a.

Michael Anthony Horrigan

12-02-2008, 09:14 AM

We're shooting on a dvx-100a.
Cool. Good luck!

Chelsea8882

12-03-2008, 10:07 AM

Yay Ohio! I'm definitely interested to see this :)

Lawsuit_Boy

12-05-2008, 02:16 PM

Since there are so many Ohio filmmakers tossing into the pot, I'll try not to disappoint!

:beer:

Lawsuit_Boy

12-22-2008, 02:44 PM

Updated.

Lawsuit_Boy

01-05-2009, 11:00 PM

Update: A poster has finally been posted (heh) on the first page. Take a look!

Lawsuit_Boy

01-14-2009, 10:34 PM

A few official screen grabs posted on first page.

J. Erik Reese

02-01-2009, 01:19 PM

Nice screen shots!

J. Erik Reese

02-02-2009, 09:42 AM

The project looks very interesting! keep it up!!!

Richard J. Johnson

02-03-2009, 09:49 AM

Good looking grabs. nice to see the DVX in good hands.

Will Clegg

02-04-2009, 09:27 AM

Great looking poster.

You never answered Zak about the optical flare trick... Let's hear the secret!

Rodney V. Smith

02-28-2009, 01:27 PM

hey dude, did you complete the film? got everything in okay? GIve us an update.

Lawsuit_Boy

02-28-2009, 08:17 PM

The film's finished and will be entered on time. :) I think we have a pretty solid film to offer for all of your viewing pleasures. We really hope everyone on here enjoys it! I certainly look forward to everyone else's work.

Mark Harris

02-28-2009, 08:54 PM

Wow, finishing is still a distant dream of mine...

Lawsuit_Boy

03-01-2009, 11:56 AM

I hope the project pans out for you, Mark. I'd really like to see it!

Also, I put a couple more grabs up on the first page (under the poster) to help keep the thread from going completely stale.

MrKilloran

03-02-2009, 11:16 PM

Your stills look mighty cold as well, see you had to work around some snow too but its looking good:beer:

Zak Forsman

03-10-2009, 02:37 AM

just watched it. easily my favorite of the fest so far. really beautifully rendered, jon. really. you're the kind of talent I'm always thankful to know is out there doing their own thing.

lordambrai

03-10-2009, 09:06 AM

It has this whole Cameron Crowe feel to it you know? Specifically after the two meet and the way they reacted to each other, they really dug each other and their reactions, though corny, felt genuine.

At first the search for her key felt a little too long, but I liked most of the shots and the way she was just digging through randomness. I probably would tighten that up a little though.

But I liked it! I wanna see more college stories that aren't over the top, just slice of life stuff like this.

seductivepuppy

03-10-2009, 12:22 PM

i'm gonna agree with zak and say this was my fav so far in the fest. i loooved your long steadicam shots. for a while there too i thought it was gonna be totally silent too (which i woulda been fine with).

if there's anythign to nitpick about it would be the dialogue levels, but i don't wanna. heh. GREAT FILM.

Richard J. Johnson

03-10-2009, 02:54 PM

Great Great film. the steadicam stuff was fantastic. I have nothing really to complain about. direction was on point. great job.

Michael Anthony Horrigan

03-10-2009, 02:55 PM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-10-2009, 03:07 PM

Sleeper hit!!?

I loved this! The steady cam was working and it looks like you shot with available light. It worked for the most part.

The moment that played out towards the end was well worth the wait. I really loved just about everything in this film. Had you cleaned up the audio it would have been perfect. As it is... still one of my top films so far!

Really well done. I hope everyone watches this one.
There's just something about this one.

I'm going to go watch it again.

MAH

Haha, yes, I feel confident about the sound right now, but since we only had a sound guy for one night of shooting, I had to take it upon myself to get it done. Needless to say, mixing two sources of sound was TERRIBLY difficult. I spent a lot of time getting it to a manageable mix. Lesson learned, I suppose.

But thank you all SOOOOO much for your kind words and support! I wasn't expecting such a reaction to this. :)

Zak Forsman

03-10-2009, 04:21 PM

throwing you some facebook love. some nice comments coming in... i dont know if this link will work...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=760520031&v=feed&story_fbid=57390373957

Chris Messineo

03-10-2009, 04:30 PM

I really liked your film a lot.

There was a moment, in the elevator, when I was scared and I thought it might be about to go to a dark place and I was so glad it didn't.

I really liked the actress. She had a great energy about her and her little moment of joy at the very end is wonderful.

You might want to tighten up the earlier parts a bit, but that is a small suggestion for an overall great film.

Well done.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-10-2009, 04:37 PM

throwing you some facebook love. some nice comments coming in... i dont know if this link will work...

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=760520031&v=feed&story_fbid=57390373957

The link worked, but I couldn't see your page. Not friended.

Rodney V. Smith

03-10-2009, 05:24 PM

Jon beautiful film here. Great use of steadicam and so subtle. For a while I thought there wasn't going to be any dialog and I was interested to see how you would pull that off, but then the dialog came in... and it felt so natural and so right. Right on the beat. Very nice.

I have zero complaints about this one (except for the sound levels, but who am I to talk about sound, right?) and I absolutely loved it.

lawriejaffa

03-10-2009, 06:32 PM

I enjoyed this film too - which I think probably hits a nerve with us (of the male gender) in filmmaking. Perhaps this is also a freudian slip on the part of the filmmaker (and not unique to him either...)

That we like the graphic design character are mostly comprised of nerdy type guys, who would juuuust love to get it on with a cute, sensitive, attractive and artistic young woman - who seems to be as 'shy' as ourselves.

Obviously it works as I find the tale delightful, and is executed in an almost documentary manner - and a kind of lonely voyeurism during the first half, that really gets us intimate with your lead. Attractive and realistic cinematography lends to the credibility of the tale - and of course the guy tripping is always a classic - well done.

MrKilloran

03-10-2009, 08:04 PM

It felt natural and real, even though the audio was too low, it felt like we as an audience were just spying on these characters and how they interacted. The camera work was smooth and effective, very efficient cutting, I like the coloring you chose too. It felt genuine, its definitely a favorite of mine so far. :beer:

Nick_Lee

03-10-2009, 08:28 PM

were those motion shots handheld o_o. how is that possible? haha.

good job! steadicam or w/e that stuff was, was great. is that the famous kent state university that you spoke of in the thread i made?

Will Clegg

03-10-2009, 08:31 PM

That was great, Jon. It was playful and touching and left me with a smile on my face. I really liked your lead and the camera work was fantastic. Makes me miss my DVX100a.

Next time, I hope you can get a good dedicated sound guy. It will only make your work that much better. I'll bet this one ends up in the second round.

Zak Forsman

03-10-2009, 08:34 PM

are we human?

Lawsuit_Boy

03-10-2009, 08:38 PM

We very well could be, Zak. Though, philosophers and theorists might argue otherwise. ;)

Again, thank you for the fantastic feedback, everyone. Can't tell you how much it means to me.

Nick - Yes sir, that is Kent State. :)

Lawsuit_Boy

03-10-2009, 08:39 PM

were those motion shots handheld o_o. how is that possible? haha.

Which shots are you referring to, Nick?

dvpixl

03-10-2009, 09:57 PM

It was witty yet, subtle and very, very down to earth. I enjoyed this film. Great actors.

lilcaro

03-10-2009, 11:21 PM

Hello, this is Caroline, the lead in Tiny Dancer. I just wanted to come on here and personally thank everyone for the complements and feedback you've given Jon, and I'm so glad that people are enjoying the film. We had a blast making this, and I can't wait til another one is in the works!

Zak Forsman

03-10-2009, 11:27 PM

Nick_Lee

03-11-2009, 12:44 AM

Which shots are you referring to, Nick?

nice campus dude.

I believe the first shot into is dolly? I was referring to the end when they get out of the elevator and I think the camera goes from the doorway to the elevator and the guy walks out answering the girls question.

But in general...I just mean all the shots with motion. Did you use a dolly at all? For example the shots of them walking down the hallway together don't seem like dolly shots but way too smooth to be hand held. I'm so confused. haha.

Also...I thought it was interesting and nice that you didn't take the "loss" as an over dramatic thing and you kept it lighthearted.

Deklun

03-11-2009, 03:09 AM

I like how you captured that bit of awkwardness but kept control of it. Loved in the end when he tripped in the hallway... I can definitely relate to that. Nice work

Zim

03-11-2009, 03:22 AM

I have to agree that this was good. I also thought in the elevator that maybe something bad was going to happen. But only for a second. Then when the guy trip! Very well done. But the best part was the girl looking back from around the wall.
Nice work.

ZazaCast

03-11-2009, 07:20 AM

Good film Jon. This was a nice story with good acting all around. I really liked the steadicam work, smooth & fluid!

As mentioned above, I think you could have worked on the audio a bit. The dialog was hollow and I feel the film could have benefited with some music in the opening scene. Perhaps we could have been listening to the music your lead was listening to on her iPod....then, it's gone when she takes out the ear buds?

Another thing I really liked was the way you made me think there might not be any dialog...but then, there was...and later, I thought something bad might happen with the guy in the elevator...and the final squeak of excitement as the girl peeks back around the corner....priceless. You pulled me in & took me back to days gone by. Really nice job!

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 08:02 AM

nice campus dude.

I believe the first shot into is dolly? I was referring to the end when they get out of the elevator and I think the camera goes from the doorway to the elevator and the guy walks out answering the girls question.

But in general...I just mean all the shots with motion. Did you use a dolly at all? For example the shots of them walking down the hallway together don't seem like dolly shots but way too smooth to be hand held. I'm so confused. haha.

Also...I thought it was interesting and nice that you didn't take the "loss" as an over dramatic thing and you kept it lighthearted.

Thanks man. I really appreciate the nice words. But no, I didn't use a dolly at all. They were all steadicam shots. I used a glidecam 2000 pro.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 08:06 AM

As mentioned above, I think you could have worked on the audio a bit. The dialog was hollow and I feel the film could have benefited with some music in the opening scene. Perhaps we could have been listening to the music your lead was listening to on her iPod....then, it's gone when she takes out the ear buds?

Yeah, I was disappointed with the audio. It got a little dense because of the noise reduction I had to treat the entire piece to. We ended up having to mix audio from the dvx's on-board mic with a secondary source, and it was a pain. Next time I'll definitely have someone working sound. But the no music from the ipod was intentional. I was certainly going for a voyeuristic feel and didn't want to hear the song, but see her bobbing and humming to it.

Another thing I really liked was the way you made me think there might not be any dialog...but then, there was...and later, I thought something bad might happen with the guy in the elevator...and the final squeak of excitement as the girl peeks back around the corner....priceless. You pulled me in & took me back to days gone by. Really nice job!

Thank you! I really appreciate your great feedback, ZaZa. Glad you enjoyed the film! :)

kyrre

03-11-2009, 09:42 AM

I really liked this one. Your lead pulled a great performance, and I really liked the cinematography. The steadicam shots in the gym were amazing! Perhaps the ending could have felt a little more conclusive? It just felt slightly anticlimactic after the build up with the elevator scene, but maybe it's just me.

Great work anyhow!

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 10:20 AM

Thank you, kyrre. I appreciate the feedback. I'm extremely proud of Caroline's work as Josie. She and Nate were such a deliciously awkward pair and I feel like it worked very well. Caroline and I are outlining a new project that takes the topic of "gender bending" and gender stereotypes as its main subject. Should be interesting.

Thanks again, everyone. :)

jasonthewho

03-11-2009, 11:47 AM

pia12254

03-11-2009, 11:53 AM

A nice film! Enjoyed the story and the acting. And I also thought something creepy was about to happen when they got on the elevator...guess we need to get our minds out of the gutter! :D

I agree with Jason that the scene with her finding/losing her card was a bit confusing. I concur that a couple of well placed close-ups could have cleared it up. And the steadicam shots were a nice touch but seemed to have a little framing trouble (namely headroom) at points.

But overall a nice, fun piece!

Daniel

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 12:16 PM

Very nice work. Love the way the camera moves throughout the film. Both leads handle themselves admirably.

Cute story that also has dramatic weight to it. Nice to see a happy ending.

Agree that sound wasn't the strongest point here.

I was a bit confused by the scene where she slides on her knees. My understanding is that she finds her card, then immediately loses it again. If that's true, then I would have done two things to clarify the scene. One have a close up where we can see it is indeed her card. Two, when the card hits the floor, cut in for another close up of it hitting the floor so we don't miss the fact that she lost it again. The wide shot was beautiful, but I think staying on it the whole time made the story hard to follow.

Are you a PT Anderson fan? I definitely felt some of his influence here.

This is definitely a film I'll be watching again. Good work.

To clarify: She slides on her knees and finds A card, but not HER card. She gets discouraged again when she realizes this. I guess that could have been spelled out a little more. I thought her "huff and puff" reaction was the key to getting that across. Glad you guys pointed it out.

Heh, yeah, I'm a PT Anderson junkie. I've been floating around in a lot of French and and British film circles lately, though.

jasonthewho

03-11-2009, 12:28 PM

The things that were VERY PT Anderson for me was the shot where you moved with the guy towards the girl sitting against the building (Sydney/Hard Eight). And the end credits (Punch-Drunk Love).

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 12:29 PM

The things that were VERY PT Anderson for me was the shot where you moved with the guy towards the girl sitting against the building (Sydney/Hard Eight). And the end credits (Punch-Drunk Love).

Dang, I didn't think anyone would get the minor Sydney reference. Kudos! Definitely PDL in the end.

abraham

03-11-2009, 12:40 PM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 12:43 PM

Hey I liked this.
Very nice and sweet.
I, too, dug the steadicam.
Also: shooting in a dorm can be rough...i remember.
not exactly the most interesting atmosphere in most circumstances -- but you made it feel really really good.
Word. I hope this gets in the 2nd round.

Tell me about it! This building is more or less like an apartment complex in the way it operates. It's upperclassmen and graduate students that live here, so it's always deathly quiet and the building is just so dull and boring. Had to perk it up a bit.

I'm glad you liked it! It's really comforting to hear such generous feedback.

Norm Sanders

03-11-2009, 06:28 PM

Hi Jon, haven't read the rest of your thread, so that I could just get my thoughts out fresh to you.

Nice boy meets girl film, that had some creepy factors along the way I kept THINKING might happen, but didn't ... not sure if it was the lighting, lack of dialogue in spots, etc., but in some aspects it kept me from enjoying the simple, joyful/playful payoff at the end, because I was expecting more and/or something different.

I didn't understand why when it LOOKED like she found her card, she then accidentally drops it & doesn't realize? Then she goes to a big white building (inside), and looks up the stairs, but I'm not sure where you were going with that. In the end, the guy has the card, so I'm not sure if what she dropped wasn't hers and she INTENDED to drop it, or if that's where the guy found it?

The title & her character of being a dancer had little to nothing to do with the actual story, so I also expected something more and/or different. In this case, she could have been a plumber, a receptionist, or anything else, and it really wouldn't have changed the story in the least, from my perspective.

I think if more had been placed on relationship, visible excitement/tension between the two leads (i.e. her noticing him before, not sure how to approach, etc. or vice-versa), then this could have had a LOT more of an impactful payoff/emotional punch to it.

I enjoyed many of the camera angles/editing choices. Audio, specifically recording of their dialogue is something that could be worked on a little as well in spots.

Michael Anthony Horrigan

03-11-2009, 06:40 PM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 06:47 PM

I didn't understand why when it LOOKED like she found her card, she then accidentally drops it & doesn't realize? Then she goes to a big white building (inside), and looks up the stairs, but I'm not sure where you were going with that. In the end, the guy has the card, so I'm not sure if what she dropped wasn't hers and she INTENDED to drop it, or if that's where the guy found it?

Hey Norm. Thanks for responding to the film! I've noticed a few people got hung up on this. I suppose a little more focus on the reaction might have helped, but it felt right to me. What happens is that she picks up a card that she THINKS is hers, but actually isn't. I must ask this, not directly to you, but to all viewers (and this is an honest question): did the character seem like someone who would pick up a card, run away, and not realize it fell out of her hand? I just want to know so I don't make the same mistake twice. I didn't anticipate it would be a problem. Also, to clarify, SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!if you go back and watch the shot in which she walks out of her dorm and past the boy in red, you can see her card key fall out of her pocket and hear it hit the ground. She was distracted by the boy and didn't notice. So, her card was locked inside the building (and eventually in the boy's possession) the entire time. It's brief, and if you aren't paying attention you could miss it.

The title & her character of being a dancer had little to nothing to do with the actual story, so I also expected something more and/or different. In this case, she could have been a plumber, a receptionist, or anything else, and it really wouldn't have changed the story in the least, from my perspective.

I chose the title "Tiny Dancer" because more often than not, a comprehensive film that really digs deep into its characters is titled after something specific, because the well of knowledge to gain is so deep. I find that most great films (not all) express their title with specific nouns as opposed to a type of action or action verb. I often get disheartened by titles that portray a type of action instead of a subject. It makes the film more three dimensional, I think, to try to find a title that represents a specific noun that does not necessarily relate to a verbial action. Also, I was hoping that people would pick up on just how "tiny" this dancer seems in the world until she crosses paths with the boy and becomes larger in HIS world. Also...Caroline is quite short and really is a dancer. It makes sense to me, heh.

I think if more had been placed on relationship, visible excitement/tension between the two leads (i.e. her noticing him before, not sure how to approach, etc. or vice-versa), then this could have had a LOT more of an impactful payoff/emotional punch to it.

I enjoyed many of the camera angles/editing choices. Audio, specifically recording of their dialogue is something that could be worked on a little as well in spots.

The focus wasn't on a relationship, though. The film is also a study of isolation and isolationism within cold, sprawled out Ohio campuses. So by her meeting someone, she is given the prospect of having a companion. So it IS about a relationship, but about the beginning of one.

Thanks for the fun discussion, Norm! :thumbsup:

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 06:49 PM

I'm surprised a couple of people didn't get this? It's not her card. She thinks she has found it, but her reaction shows that she's mistaken and she tosses it aside. It is subtle though but I wouldn't change it.

She loses it in the hall when she first leaves her dorm/apartment early in the movie. You know, when she first sees him? She doesn't notice at the time.

Thank you Michael! I'm so glad that it isn't something I completely butchered. Sure, it could be done differently, but I'm satisfied with it. I'm glad you noticed it fall out of her pocket in the beginning.

Norm Sanders

03-11-2009, 07:17 PM

Jon, good feedback on the relationship/isolation part.

As far as her seeming like a character that COULD drop the card in such a way & not notice ... yes. I guess because of the way she was hap-hazzardly quickly looking at things under the seats & kind of flinging them all over the place, the way she slid on her knees up to the card, and then quickly ran off, she did seem a tad care free, and like she could just end up losing the card again, which is what I thought had happened.

I TOTALLY missed the card being dropped in the hall way. I'd suggest perhaps a quick cut away/close up of the card, to really draw the attention of the viewer to it, since it was of such key importance. Similarly, our short had a close up of the baseball being picked up off of the side table. Since the ball really had nothing to do with the story, I went ahead and cut out the shot of it, since I didn't want the viewers to think the ball had more importance than it really did (other than it was a cool shot). In your case, the card on the hallway floor WAS important, and could warrant/support such a shot.

lilcaro

03-11-2009, 07:37 PM

caroline, jon did a great job providing a framework for you to do your very best. your performance carried us gently through the film in an amazing way. you deserve a lot of credit for its ability to resonate with an audience. i hope you're all proud of it and will let the great feedback you've gotten validate the choices your making as you continue to evolve as artists.

Wow, that's one hell of a complement for me considering this was only my second time in front of the camera. I was previously in a project called "Quip" that Jon worked on for LoveFest last year, but sadly it didn't end up getting finished. It's really too bad because I think it could have been something special. If you (or anyone else) would like to check it out, here you go http://vimeo.com/1094819 Just bear in mind that it's still unfinished, so be nice haha. We may try to redo it someday, but it's doubtful. Anyway, thanks again for your wonderful comments :)

alex whitmer

03-11-2009, 08:00 PM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 08:21 PM

There is much to like here, but I so, so wanted to see some dance. Almost got there a few times, then - pffft.

I got a little lost on following the card. I thought she found it, then she didn't? Was there some other card? Did she lose it twice?

Both actors did a nice job with that nervous, hormonal angst.

Enjoyed the flick.

aw

www.alexwhitmer.wordpress.com

Hey alex! Thanks for taking the time to stop by and say some words. I'm sorry we couldn't show any dancing. :( If we had more time we would have. The point of that scene is to show her segregation from the two groups in the class. Originally, we wanted a few dance shots, but time wasn't on our side. Plus, it might have slowed things down a little.

Anyway, this has been a problem for a few others on here. While a fair amount of people have spoken to me about these scenes and mentioned that they didn't have trouble following the loss of the key, I realize that it's still a little confusing for some. It's subtle, but she loses her key in the hallway INSIDE the dorm, hence locking it in there. The key she finds in the other building is not hers, which is why she drops it. This character, being an introspective, intuitive dancer, would not just drop something out of her hand and not realize that it is gone, especially if she'd been looking for it all day (the search montage was shot to be a little longer with different buildings). So I understand people's concerns with this problem, but I was hoping that those who really observe the film would pick up on that immediately.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to express your likes/dislikes. I really do value it. :beer:

Spear670

03-11-2009, 09:26 PM

I enjoyed this film up until she lost her card. The "day in the life of" was actually working for me, it reminded me of a short from Paris Je Taime. I got a little confused when she was scrambling around looking for her card. I thought she found it at one point but she didn't, and by the time I realized that she was talking to the guy. I just needed to play a little catch up and got taken out of the flow.

Mark Harris

03-11-2009, 10:30 PM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 10:50 PM

Yeah, I think the losing key thing was a little goofy, because she drops the second key so quickly, without any focus on that moment, that I assumed she found her key again and then dropped it again without noticing. From what you describe, I think we need a moment for her to realize it's not her key.

But overall, this was nice, simple, honest, direct. The actress was really good on camera. The guy very natural as well. I thought the cinematography fit the piece for the most part, in that it was a simple, personal story. I LOVE the long single camera moves, like in the dorm room, and then moving in on her in the dance studio. Really nicely chosen and executed shots.

Though to be honest, I think you stretch that handy-cam look about as far as it will go. As charming and good as this was, I think it would have been even better with lights, or more specific lighting choices. He's going to hate me for using him as an example, but this is what separates Zak from about 90% off the indie "human moments" crowd. His films are beautiful.

Not that yours should look like his, and maybe that's just my preference, or maybe this look is a one-off for you, but if it's not, I think it might be something to add in next time if you are looking for ways to expand and challenge yourself.

The cut to her at the window was a hair...abrupt? I dunno. After the wonderful shot of her coming in, it felt a little jarring. Might be worth a second peek.

Also, the sound for the most part worked within the confines of what you were doing, but I think this piece is nice enough that it would be worth a sound mix and evening out the differences between shots and such, and even foleying things like the dorr bangs, things that got recorded badly. Again, it's pretty minor, but like I said I think the piece deserves it, and will help distinguish your work as serious and professional.

Really nice work. Simple, honest, direct.

Trust me Mark, if I had the money to afford proper lighting equipment and sound equipment (although fair sound equipment, I just didn't have a sound guy), I would get on top of that. Personally, I'm pleased with the way this film came out. Sure, a few shots here and there could have used more accent on faces and generally more atmosphere, but we do what we can, right? I did this project just as something to do, and I had no idea it would even get as far as entering a contest. This is really exciting for me!

Trust me, I absolutely adore Zak's use of colors and style. But I just didn't have what it took to get some of these things. Plus, I was going for a colder aesthetic anyway that borrowed from films like Punch-Drunk Love and ESPECIALLY Godard's A Woman is a Woman (which is where PDL got it's look from). I've had a lot of people really love the atmosphere that the cold, natural light breeds, but I can see it's pretty divided. Some like it, some don't. I'm totally cool with that. :thumbsup:

I also must mention that, and this is important, this was all shot in a STOCK dvx-100a. I just wanted to mention it because I'm proud of that little camera. It just keeps on chuggin' along. :) I've done more "beautiful" work (check out my vimeo page and see "Two Hours in Atwood for some strong exposures with good dynamic range and no blow outs).

I appreciate the great review you gave, Mark! Thanks a bunch! :beer:

lilcaro

03-11-2009, 10:55 PM

I would also like to add, mostly because Jon has already mentioned it a couple times in this thread, that you can see and hear the card key fall out of my pocket when I walk past the boy, which is how the key ends up in his posession. I'm not sure if people aren't noticing because they can't see it, or hear it, or both. I know both of us would really like to know :)

Lawsuit_Boy

03-11-2009, 11:00 PM

SMarston

03-11-2009, 11:37 PM

i felt like i was running in circles on this one, it was a cute story and im sure everyone can relate in one way or another but it seemed a lot like a short soap opera to me. good entry though

Zak Forsman

03-12-2009, 12:02 AM

Brandon Rice

03-12-2009, 01:24 AM

Well... this was cute. Loved the Steadicam? work. The audio wasn't good :( kind of drew me out of it. So, what was up with her keycard?

Zak Forsman

03-12-2009, 01:25 AM

Well... this was cute. Loved the Steadicam? work. The audio wasn't good :( kind of drew me out of it. So, what was up with her keycard?

she loss'd it.

Brandon Rice

03-12-2009, 01:29 AM

Hm. didn't get that... :( weird.

I thought she was looking for change or money for the vending machine... weird :D

Either way, cute short... good effort.

lilcaro

03-12-2009, 01:44 AM

Heh this is not good if we have to keep saying "she loses her keycard" on every page. I hope this isn't hindering us too much :(

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 07:05 AM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 07:09 AM

i didn't see that she dropped it until my second viewing. but for me, knowing or not knowing made no difference... i wasn't enjoying the film because it was about a girl looking for her keycard. i enjoyed it because of HOW it was about it.

Right. There's a lot about isolation presented here. That was one of the main selling points of the story. And yes, it's about a girl who gets locked out of her dorm; her only area of true comfort. BUT, it's also about a girl seeking companionship, hence all of the empty spaces (isolation), segregation in dance class, and texts from her friends who are out of state. She's alone, as is the boy. They converge and help fill that emptiness.

Perhaps the film ended up too interpretive? :huh: I have been making use of the term "visual poetry" in a lot of my work in the past four or five months, and this film certainly was an experiment in such technique. I tried to make the film feel empty/deserted (hence the reason we shot on campus during christmas break), and then balance the film out once the boy REALLY enters the picture. Does all of that make sense? And if so, to any who actually read this, do you see that in the film?

I guess I'm just pleading for people to give it a second look before they tell me that it was confusing and unwatchable (which nobody has really said, but I'm getting that drift). All of the pieces really are there. My apologies if it's too subtle.

Michael Anthony Horrigan

03-12-2009, 07:49 AM

I'm just trying to figure out where these assumptions are coming from. She loses the key in the dorm, goes to class, comes back, realizes her key is missing (hence the reason she says "oh no" in an "oh crap" manner and dashes back out of the building), then goes running around looking for it. Now, originally, that sequence was going to be longer (we shot a lot more), but time constraints made me have to trim it down. Did I lose a lot in the cutting? I really think it's all still there, and I'm not sure how it's getting lost in translation so badly. I figured people would just put the pieces together. :huh:I think what you have to remember here is that it was subtle to begin with. Also take into account that many people watch these as small compressed videos.

People are also watching them from home or work where there can be other distractions at play.

I know when I first watched it I was focused and saw the card drop immediately. Now, if someone is looking at the guy walking by they may miss that, but if they are listening without distraction the audible noise that the card makes when hitting the floor should get their attention. It's quite noticeable.

That's why I watch every entry with headphones.

I'm not saying that people are not paying attention, but it's not like watching it on the big screen with 100% focus.

Personally, I wouldn't change a thing but that's just me.
Many more people may come in and say that they missed it too. I wouldn't base a change on that.

My advice. Have it shown in high quality at a small theatre to people who know nothing about it. If they miss it then you have a problem. One or two can miss it, but the majority should catch it. If they don't, fix it.

I know that some people are blowing these up on quality monitors but the fact of the matter is that these videos are low res and compressed. Garbage in = garbage out. Blowing them up only makes it worse, regardless of what monitor is used.

MAH

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 08:04 AM

I think what you have to remember here is that it was subtle to begin with. Also take into account that many people watch these as small compressed videos.

People are also watching them from home or work where there can be other distractions at play.

I know when I first watched it I was focused and saw the card drop immediately. Now, if someone is looking at the guy walking by they may miss that, but if they are listening without distraction the audible noise that the card makes when hitting the floor should get their attention. It's quite noticeable.

That's why I watch every entry with headphones.

I'm not saying that people are not paying attention, but it's not like watching it on the big screen with 100% focus.

Personally, I wouldn't change a thing but that's just me.
Many more people may come in and say that they missed it too. I wouldn't base a change on that.

My advice. Have it shown in high quality at a small theatre to people who know nothing about it. If they miss it then you have a problem. One or two can miss it, but the majority should catch it. If they don't, fix it.

I know that some people are blowing these up on quality monitors but the fact of the matter is that these videos are low res and compressed. Garbage in = garbage out. Blowing them up only makes it worse, regardless of what monitor is used.

MAH

Right. And I understand that. I mentioned that if it were shot and presented in HD, people would have noticed a lot more. I guess that's the limitation of having very little money of your own. I've been shooting on the dvx since 2004 and haven't upgraded to a new camera since. It's my fault for assuming that people would just say, "hey, she dropped that card...I guess it isn't her key."

And just so everyone knows, I'm not really worried about this per se, because I'm NOT going to change it. I feel that yes, it's subtle, and yes, it's highly compressed so it's not as easy a viewing, but all of the information is there in the shot, so there's no reason to change it. Just like you said, some people see/hear it, and some don't. And that's okay. I'm just trying to get more feedback about it for my own sort of research/survey in order to figure out how each person responded to it. It's just for my curiosity, really. :)

filmingfan

03-12-2009, 08:11 AM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 08:15 AM

Had to watch this a couple of times. Couldn't tell if she found her key and lost it again or what, so I'll really have to look at it again. Anyway, I thought the guy was a little sinister and i was kinda expecting something gruesome to happen in the elevator! Was i the only one who thought that? Just wanted to say, tho, that this is film kept me interested and watchng from beginning to end. Now i gotta go watch it again.

Thanks filmingfan! Appreciate it. Heh, yeah, his character was very nervous about meeting the girl and since he's so much bigger, he's like this big, awkward lug trying to find love.

Yeah, the key thing has tripped a lot of people up. She finds a card that is NOT her key, hence her dropping it and running out. If you watch again, you'll see (and hear) her key drop out of her pocket when she walks past the boy for the first time inside the dorm.

And remember, it's also a study of isolation and isolationism on the college campus. Isolationism is actually a pretty big problem in America as well as the rest of the world. It always intrigues me and I was hoping for more responses about that aspect.

lilcaro

03-12-2009, 11:51 AM

I’d just like to add one more thing to the whole keycard debacle (although I’m not sure how many people are coming in here, reading our explanations, and giving our film another chance if they’re confused. If you’ve done so then thank you so much!).

Basically, even if you don’t see or hear the keycard fall out of her pocket when she passes the boy, the clues to where her key has been is in the dialogue when they’re standing in front of the elevator. She says “How did you find this?” and he says “You dropped it earlier.” How did he know she dropped it earlier? Because she dropped it right next to him. It makes no logical sense for the card she finds after sliding on her knees to be hers. How did the boy come to have it in his possession then? Did he follow her around while she was looking for her key and then he picked it up after that moment because she “dropped her key again”? No, because that’s stupid and silly. There is only one scene the boy appears in previous to their conversation, and that is where she drops her key. That is how he knew she dropped it and how he happened to have it in his possession when he finally speaks to her. Honestly, if you miss the part where he says “You dropped it earlier” along with the part where she drops her keycard, I’m asking you to please, please watch it again.

Anyway, thanks everyone for watching our little film!

Robbie Comeau

03-12-2009, 12:48 PM

Hmm...Not sure where the story was on this. A bit confused.

Anyway, nice steadicam work, and I like the chosie of the long shots you chose.

Cinematography/directing was intruiging and it kept me into the film.

Most probably talked about the lack of audio, so I won't go there.

I liked the acting, they did a good job on that.

The color grade seemed fitting and It was my taste for sure.

Thanks for sharing,

Robbie

pia12254

03-12-2009, 01:00 PM

Caroline (is that right?),

Thanks for your explanation! I understand what you are saying and your logic makes sense! :smile:

Although, I think what others might be perceiving (and kind of my reaction as well) was because we don't see the card fall, and then we hear him say "You dropped it earlier" we assume maybe he was following her (and it just wasn't shown). I think that is part of what leads people to think something creepy is about to happen on the elevator.

I know that is not at all what you guys intended with the film (and I know it can be quite frustrating when people miss the point). I just wanted to give you my impression and why others might be perceiving it the same way.

Hope that helps! :beer:

Daniel

I’d just like to add one more thing to the whole keycard debacle (although I’m not sure how many people are coming in here, reading our explanations, and giving our film another chance if they’re confused. If you’ve done so then thank you so much!).

Basically, even if you don’t see or hear the keycard fall out of her pocket when she passes the boy, the clues to where her key has been is in the dialogue when they’re standing in front of the elevator. She says “How did you find this?” and he says “You dropped it earlier.” How did he know she dropped it earlier? Because she dropped it right next to him. It makes no logical sense for the card she finds after sliding on her knees to be hers. How did the boy come to have it in his possession then? Did he follow her around while she was looking for her key and then he picked it up after that moment because she “dropped her key again”? No, because that’s stupid and silly. There is only one scene the boy appears in previous to their conversation, and that is where she drops her key. That is how he knew she dropped it and how he happened to have it in his possession when he finally speaks to her. Honestly, if you miss the part where he says “You dropped it earlier” along with the part where she drops her keycard, I’m asking you to please, please watch it again.

Anyway, thanks everyone for watching our little film!

lilcaro

03-12-2009, 01:13 PM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 01:44 PM

Thanks, Robbie! Much appreciated. Glad ya liked the film.

Heh, we're definitely considering find a "happy medium" so people won't be as confused by the missing key. We genuinely did not intend to confuse people.

But it was also a time constraint, and I think that if we could have had just ten or fifteen more seconds, we might have been able to clear it up a little more.

Nick_Lee

03-12-2009, 01:47 PM

whoa...glidecam 2000's rule. haha.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 01:53 PM

whoa...glidecam 2000's rule. haha.

They're VERY finicky and tricky to use, especially if you have no prior experience with a steadicam. I've had very minor experience with one before I got my glidecam and I understood the principles (mostly, anyway) of static balance, dynamic balance/equilibrium and such, but learning how to balance the unit and THEN learning how to use it properly was quite a journey.

It has gotten pretty good, but I know I would benefit IMMENSELY from an arm and vest. Too expensive for me, though. I'm pushing through college, FINALLY got a newer car that get me from point A to point B, and I just cannot afford anything else. Kind of a bummer. :(

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 02:00 PM

Although, I think what others might be perceiving (and kind of my reaction as well) was because we don't see the card fall, and then we hear him say "You dropped it earlier" we assume maybe he was following her (and it just wasn't shown). I think that is part of what leads people to think something creepy is about to happen on the elevator.

Daniel

Wow...I almost didn't even realize that everyone thought he was creepy because of the key debacle. I just assumed that everyone thought his performance was creepy. It could be that as well (I personally thought he did a great job conveying an awkward admiration of Josie, especially for a guy who's naturally very suave and graceful), but the key problem makes sense with the interpretation of bad things to come.

Argh, I'm sorry everyone! I never thought about that angle. *face palm*

Sprocketboy

03-12-2009, 07:25 PM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 07:33 PM

Jon nice camera work. Some of the best steadicam shots in the fest. I really enjoyed following the dancer around. She was living a routine day, until she discovered her key was missing. Many of the shots are quite good and memorable, such as entering the ballet practice room, the wide shot of the auditorium, the 'symmetrical' composition of two staircase going up either side of the frame as she runs up one of them...

I liked quite a lot, but the dreaded close up of the key falling is missing. I did see it fall, but I assume it was something you caught on camera and didn't notice until you had to use the take. Also, an tool equally as important as the camera... sound. You need better sound. I like what was going on between the two actors, but I couldn't appreciate it with the bad sound. Otherwise, keep up the good work and challenge yourself to go further.

Thanks for the good feedback, Sprocket. :)

First off, I must say, that the close up of the key falling is NOT missing, we choreographed the scene to get the key to fall out as she reaches for her headband and is distracted by the boy. I didn't want to draw attention away from their interaction, but needed to see/hear the key falling. So we did it that way instead. And the only reason I went to a close-up of her hand grabbing the key from the counter was to emphasize he importance of the item. I suppose a slow dolly into the key as she's going for it would have been stronger, but we didn't have the ability to get a dolly into that room. Another compromise, but I was just assuming that people would understand that since close ups are used for few things which includes displaying something of importance, we would be okay. A lot of people have let me know personally that they thought it was a good move on my part to not focus on the key falling, but rather, emphasize the situation. But many are still irked by it. It's a compromise for sure.

I really wish we had a dedicated sound guy on this. The sound would have been much better had I not had to treat it to a few noise reductions. If you could hear the rough cut, you'd be horrified, haha. I think that the sound is fine until the scenes outside of the elevator. We didn't have the ability to turn the elevator off and it gave us some terrible room tone. And you know, I set out on this project with the intent to capture great sound, and since I had to do the jobs myself, it just didn't pan out. :(

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 07:54 PM

I'm going to post a very very late "BTS" photo since we never did it. I thought it would be a neat concept for people to show (if they don't have BTS shots) what they were working with. Might explain my sound problems, too, haha.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 08:00 PM

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/DSCF0539.jpg

There's our gear, haha. Took me a long time to get all of that, sadly.

The only other piece we used was a UV filter for the horizontal flare at the end. (yes, it was done optically)

Tim Joy

03-12-2009, 08:20 PM

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 08:26 PM

Yay dvx100. You made it shine. I loved how you shot this. The wide shots when she runs all over and the one with the chairs worked especially well for me. It had a big movie screen feel to it.

I just want to chime in and say no, I didn't see or hear the card drop, and yes, there was a creepy vibe around the elevator. I think I was waiting for something bigger to happen. Nothing big happened, and it played pretty much on a smooth line of relaxed voyerism.

Now for my critiques. The acting when she's in the theatre was over the top and felt unnatural. It was good when they were together. Their chemistry was good, but I think you suffered a bit without some kind of eyelight. If you only have one light, make it count and light up the eyes. Look at Mo/Pho and see how much eye acting there is. A ton, and it adds so much emotional depth.

Good job. I liked the locations and the whole look of it. Long live the DVX.

Thanks for the kind words! Much appreciated.

What felt unnatural to you about the auditorium? I hope it wasn't the swipe at the cup at the end (because that was unintentional and she thought she spilled coffee all over herself, haha).

We actually didn't use the light indoors at all. We didn't really have the luxury at the time to do so, unfortunately. I would have loved more light on the faces. :(

Personally, I thought there was PLENTY of eye acting in Tiny Dancer. I'm not one to toot my own horn (quite the opposite; I'm paranoid about my own work) but I thought Caroline and Nate made a lot of excellent eye work. The problem is that I didn't go close on the face nearly as many times as mo/pho, but that was intentional. I was trying to reach a Truffaut/Godardian aesthetic with longer takes and scenes framed in profile. S/RS didn't seem to feel right here. I wanted more body language than anything for some of this. I felt that we had enough close up/intimacy in the elevator.

Besides, mo/pho is about two characters with a history. These two have just met. I'm not knocking on your critique, don't worry. You gave me the kind of feedback I'm looking for. I'm just sort of defending my stance on the matter and I still stand by it.

vnguyen972

03-12-2009, 09:06 PM

Nice steadicam work, very smooth shots moving with the lead... her acting is great but the male lead is just okay, not so great with his lines... and I'm not really a big fan of movies without any score but again, that's just my own little preference.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 09:10 PM

It was either no score (my first instinct anyway), or music that didn't fit the piece. I chose the former in order to focus more on the environment. The music detracted from the film and forced the viewer to feel a certain way. The more I think about it, the more this film resembles neo-realist sentiments of Europe.

Thanks for the feedback, vnguyen972. I appreciate you taking the time.

hoz

03-12-2009, 10:32 PM

There's our gear, haha. Took me a long time to get all of that, sadly.

The only other piece we used was a UV filter for the horizontal flare at the end. (yes, it was done optically)

Be proud you got it at all! And most of all.... You really did a great job using it!!!
loved the steady cam shots, and the framing was excellent. Really like your eye for things. Yeah, the sound is off but your actress is really cute. She almost didn't have to say anything at all. We got a good glimpse at her life. real cool.

simple story and well told, congrats!

Lawsuit_Boy

03-12-2009, 10:37 PM

Be proud you got it at all! And most of all.... You really did a great job using it!!!
loved the steady cam shots, and the framing was excellent. Really like your eye for things. Yeah, the sound is off but your actress is really cute. She almost didn't have to say anything at all. We got a good glimpse at her life. real cool.

simple story and well told, congrats!

Thanks, hoz! Definitely encouraging words. :)

Brian Parker

03-12-2009, 10:51 PM

Lawsuit Boy...Nice. There's a lot to love here, and if you give me a moment, I'd like to pontificate about it. Great camerawork, really. I loved your initial shot. I liked how you utilized the vast architecture to not only enhance the isolation theme but to bring out the shots as well with lines, curves, and repetitions. The last shot of her going down the hallway was great, especially the way the light from the wall sconces bled together enhancing the dreamy look. Your composition throughout was spot on. Really appropriate color grading too.

The performances were played perfectly. Your actress did a great job of taking us along with her throught the first part of the film where there was no dialogue and then they both did a great job of effectively recreating the endearing akwardness of two shy people meeting. Performances were natural and true.

This is a quiet, well made film that told a sweet simple story without pretense. You have a knack for creating a genuine feel that people can connect to and appreciate...those moments of relateable life.

OK, so I'm going to stop sounding like a snobby cinema review journal and just say awesome movie man! One of my favs!

warau

03-13-2009, 09:18 AM

And remember, it's also a study of isolation and isolationism on the college campus. Isolationism is actually a pretty big problem in America as well as the rest of the world. It always intrigues me and I was hoping for more responses about that aspect.

It seems most everything else has been brought out so I thought I would comment on this. You would have emphasized the isolation more if she had more people AROUND her during her day and during her search for the key. Outside of ballet class, she didn't seem to be near anyone to have an opportunity to interact with them, thus we don't really feel her isolation, just a quiet time to be on campus. Walking through a crowded hall with no one paying attention to her, etc would have pointed out her isolation. I see the difference in our two films in this way, yours is isolation IN THE MIDST OF people, mine is isolation FROM people. But I could be wrong, just a thought, interesting theme.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 09:33 AM

It seems most everything else has been brought out so I thought I would comment on this. You would have emphasized the isolation more if she had more people AROUND her during her day and during her search for the key. Outside of ballet class, she didn't seem to be near anyone to have an opportunity to interact with them, thus we don't really feel her isolation, just a quiet time to be on campus. Walking through a crowded hall with no one paying attention to her, etc would have pointed out her isolation. I see the difference in our two films in this way, yours is isolation IN THE MIDST OF people, mine is isolation FROM people. But I could be wrong, just a thought, interesting theme.

Technically, the term "isolationism" refers to a person's purposeful seclusion from interaction, not just being isolated by an opposing force.

I see what you mean, and that's what I wanted to achieve with the dancers in the studio. She didn't belong to either group and wasn't talking to anyone as they left. And for the exterior stuff (as well as the shots in the campus center when we hear voices but see nobody), it was a hyperrealist way of demonstrating her loneliness. So the campus center shots and the dance studio are the moments in which we find people interacting in one way or another without including her.

I'm a big fan of hyperrealism, so it only seemed right.

I understand what you're saying though, but honestly, I can't tell you how many films I have seen a shot like that. It feels very tired to me and I wanted a different perspective; something a little more fresh.

Thanks for the comments, warau! Definitely appreciate someone thinking of the other angle. :)

Geoff_R

03-13-2009, 02:29 PM

Nice work on that opening shot... :)

You've got great execution throughout; very direct sense of framing and motivation, solid cutting and pacing, very well directed.

Storywise, I was interested and enjoyed watching your main character. And the meeting between her and the guy was fun and light hearted! I felt it ended a little too awkward... maybe it's because I wanted more from them... (so perhaps thats a good thing!) I like the simplicity of their meeting... just two people perhaps in the very beginning of a ultimately life long relationship, 'who knows'.

I love the shots a 5:39, 5:43... them walking down the hallway... very awesome with the glow from the lights at the top of the frame! My favorite moments.

From a production pov, I did notice the mediocre location sound... but it didn't distract from the story. Your characters were interesting and engaging enough to overcome it, but that's the one tech thing I'd say could be improved.

One last creative thought would be to have some music at the end... nothing big, something simple and fitting. It's funny, I didn't realize till the end that there is no music in the piece :) I think music that stood out, that was too strong would overshadow the rest of the piece, but a simple piano tone, something in a 'clint eastwood' manner would probably be great for it. Just a thought.

Really enjoyed this one. Thanks for sharing!

Geoff_R

03-13-2009, 02:33 PM

Technically, the term "isolationism" refers to a person's purposeful seclusion from interaction, not just being isolated by an opposing force.

I see what you mean, and that's what I wanted to achieve with the dancers in the studio. She didn't belong to either group and wasn't talking to anyone as they left. And for the exterior stuff (as well as the shots in the campus center when we hear voices but see nobody), it was a hyperrealist way of demonstrating her loneliness. So the campus center shots and the dance studio are the moments in which we find people interacting in one way or another without including her.

I'm a big fan of hyperrealism, so it only seemed right...
Interesting and I like the way you did approach it here... This makes me want to watch it again... even from her peeking out her window at the world in the beginning, I see more now of what you were going for.. and the text from her friend relating a long distance to NY, 'she is far from her friends'.

Lots of minor details throughout! They all add up in the end.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 02:43 PM

Thanks for the great words, Geoff! Don't worry, I've seen The Things We Carry, but since I've already reviewed every film in the festival besides yours and Mark's, they're up next!

You know, we actually did try to put some music in at the end because it seemed like it would be a good complement to the scene, but nothing fit. Because the rest of the film lacked a score (which of course was intentional) it seemed abrupt and out of place to put music. Could be that we just didn't have the right kind. A friend in Texas was doing the score for me, but even though he sent me fantastic tracks, I still felt better with no music. It's certainly a compromise, but I'm hoping that it will allow people to not feel "dictated" as someone else has already said to me.

Really excellent feedback, though. Thank you so much!

P.S. It's also very nice to hear that you didn't notice there was no music until the end. That means that I did my job right! *celebrates* :)

Blaine

03-13-2009, 05:39 PM

This piece left me cold, and I'm sure much of that came from your color palette. I wanted to find some reason to care about watching your lead but it was difficult. The antiseptic hospital feel of the "blue lighting" made this feel like a living autopsy of an empty life. When she did have occasion to speak she really didn't have anything interesting to say.

I would have liked to see something more happen here. This fest has had it's share of non-story stories and this kind of gets lumped in with them. The acting was serviceable, neither good nor bad.

I thought technically, your framing and shots were fine.

Overall, I guess my complaint was that I found nothing in it to connect to and care about so I just let it happen in front of me and moved on.

I'm sure others will find things they like in it, which is good...that is your audience. Sorry I couldn't be more upbeat about it but you're not going to please everyone anyway.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 06:19 PM

Sorry it couldn't be a little more serviceable to ya, Blaine. Thanks for checking it out anyway.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 06:45 PM

Also Blaine, for my own benefit in the future, what sort of things were you looking for to pull you in and care about the character? Was it just that you couldn't relate to her isolation on a big college campus, or did it just make you not care? I know you said you couldn't relate, but how is it that there's no story unfolding, or really, what made it feel like that to you? Was it just too sparse?

These are legitimate questions that should give me some insight for future works. Trying to gain a different perspective so I know what to look for. If you could respond I'd really appreciate it. I know you already gave me a lengthy review though.

Geoff_R

03-13-2009, 06:53 PM

Maybe I can jump in on this on regarding Blaine's feelings...

I think perhaps one of those reasons is that we're not experiencing any real private moments with her less an ego/face. She's always moving around, getting ready, walking to class, etc... there's never that break where we see those protective walls removed and experience her in a naked, emotional manner... not meaning her crying, feeling sorry for herself, but 'that personal, by herself, human moment' of longing for a connection...

The closest thing we maybe have is her peering out the window, yet she is somewhat smiling there...

just an idea... but the ballet scene... if we could hear other girls in a group laughing, having a good time, talking about where they are from... then cutting to some close ups of those girls... then cutting back to her watching them.. and we got the sense, 'she wants to be with them, one of them', etc.. that gives us that emotional, private connection to her. Just a thought!

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 07:00 PM

I understand, Geoff. Makes sense. It just makes me feel that the shot of her staring out the window in a melancholic and frozen manner, watching the world outside of her, is being overlooked.

I understand, as well, the complaint about the dance studio. But I felt that doing anything like that (the sort of s/rs situation) would have been overlong and capricious. Might be a matter of taste, because we've had a lot of compliments about keeping that scene minimal and just letting the observation of the two separate groups with her in between said enough.

Actually though, in the window shot, she's pretty far from smiling. She nearly freezes in the moment as her eyes lock. It's actually meant to be a moment of severity as juxtaposed to the generally energetic nature of the character.

I feel really bad that these things are being overlooked. I guess I just assumed that following her for a long, continuous shot, plus close ups of her (at the window) who stops for a moment to see that she is not a part of that outside world would connect people to her. Plus, her friends are elsewhere. It's as if she's been abandoned. As I said before, a lot of people that have seen the film really connected with her loneliness and felt great when she finally found the prospect of a companion. I guess Blaine's right in that it just isn't everyone's cup of tea. I can respect that.

Geoff_R

03-13-2009, 07:10 PM

I see what you mean about the window shot now... I think it was the gum chewing that through me off, maybe made me think it was too 'chill' (bad word choice but can't think of a better way to describe it)

And I'm watching again... and I see a lot of the things you're talking about, like the two separate groups, her alone in the middle... perhaps it's not that they are overlooked, but she doesn't seem that bothered by it, the fact that she's by herself. She seems okay with that.

Honestly, I'm like her character in some ways... that was me in high school, I'd just go to the computer lab, work on there in the morning and then stay after school in the computer lab, working still :) but it didn't bother me, it was my choice and just 'my life', I was most certainly not an extrovert. So, although I notice her unfamiliarity with her surroundings and unease (such as when she enters that one building but leaves once she hears a lot of kids upstairs), I look at it as, 'she just wants to go to a quiet place to read or study'.

Once she meets the boy in the elevator, she's smiling and friendly and I find her endearing at these moments and yet again I'm very reminded of myself... I'm a quiet, keep to myself person, but if led into conversation with people, I'm 100% normal and quite easy to talk with :)

What impression did you want the viewer to walk away with? Did you want us to feel as if she felt cut off?

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 07:19 PM

haha, it's all good Geoff. She was actually chewing on a piece of banana (that she was eating throughout the scene) when she goes to the window. It's all good though. It's subtle, but I can see how it can be overlooked. Here are some photos from the film itself to compare (this is purely for reference):

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/tinydancer_26.jpg

Lonely girl

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Lawsuit_Boy/tinydancer_23.jpg

Happy girl with somebody to talk to.

See what I mean in the difference there? Her whole aura changes through the film. Even though she's still goofy and energetic, she was very down at the beginning.

I see what you're saying about her not looking bothered. It's easy to make that assumption. But since this is a class she has been in for a while (since she's obviously experienced), would she really be looking around longingly? I know some might say so for the sake of the film, but I feel like I'd be spoon feeding it, and I don't want to pretend that people can't see it, because everyone can. i suppose we could have done more with her looking around in the shot, but it seemed right. Plus, that was the only shot we had at getting it. Take what you can get, eh?

Yes, I just wanted the audience to feel as if she has been secluded since her friends are gone, her family isn't shown, and she is a charming odd ball that doesn't quite fit in with her dance classmates. It's all about a lonely girl finding a friend (or maybe more) essentially. The film is ABOUT human connection and companionship. It chronicles a lonely person who gets locked out of her only comfort zone and ends up finally connecting with someone in a positive way. I figured that would be apparent. People will react the way they react, but I thought that would at least be somewhat clear. I wanted it to be a realistic portrayal, in a voyeuristic way, of a person who has a lot pushing against her. Her character's obviously young, so it's difficult to be in a new world when you feel so isolated.

That is what I was trying to get at, haha. Got a little long-winded there. Once again, I feel really bad that I had to explain it all. Makes me feel like I didn't do my job right. But, I contend that I'm still satisfied with the film and I'm very proud of the work the three of us did.

Blaine

03-13-2009, 07:28 PM

You've shown me a person who's along. That's about all I know about her. There are a million strangers out there who we know nothing about. There lives pass us never touching us. Show me who your character is. Give me a reason to care about her. Care that she's alone. I didn't get the feeling that she was desperately reaching out for contact. You've shown her alone a lot but you're never as alone as you are when you're alone in a group of people. You touched on it in the dance class. That could have been played up more.

I could be the case that you weren't in a position as a filmmaker to show scenes of her alone in with others around her. That's okay. Take the opportunity that you did have and work with it more...the dance class. Forfeit some of the time she was hunting for her key card and develop her character. Give me a routing interest to see something good happen for/to her.

As you've shown her, I don't know if she's alone because she's an outsider or because she aloof. I guess what I'm looking for is a reason to care, some insight into who she is.

I'm going to give a bad example of what I mean but it's all I can come up with on such short notice. Let's say we see a letter or something to her mother that says something along the lines of "Don't worry, mom, I'm making lots of friends." Then juxtapose that with her isolation in the dance class. That lets me into her life a little, gives me some kind of emotional attachment that makes me care about her.

I don't know if that helps or not.

Geoff_R

03-13-2009, 07:32 PM

...Yes, I just wanted the audience to feel as if she has been secluded since her friends are gone, her family isn't shown, and she is a charming odd ball that doesn't quite fit in with her dance classmates. It's all about a lonely girl finding a friend (or maybe more) essentially.....

...........That is what I was trying to get at, haha. Got a little long-winded there. Once again, I feel really bad that I had to explain it all. Makes me feel like I didn't do my job right. But, I contend that I'm still satisfied with the film and I'm very proud of the work the three of us did.
You should definitely be proud of the work! It's a good film IMO. But I wouldn't think for a moment that you didn't do your job right. I felt what you were describing above, I got it and I think most people will get the same thing, but getting it and feeling it are two different things and most of the time it doesn't have much to do with whether or not you did 'your job', it's just up to whether or not the viewer cares about that situation.

A lot of people could look at the character and say, "well heck, if she's lonely, maybe she should go make some friends.." you can so readily simplify the problem... I think many extroverts who have an easy time to connecting with people wouldn't care about this character in general because they see such an easy solution, and wouldn't understand her woes. But a more quiet person, someone more reserved, more private, or just someone who has been in her shoes before... they might 100% get it, but more importantly, 'they'd feel it', because they can sympathize with her struggle.

I think your target audience with this piece are people whom have felt like this young girl at some point in time in their life or another. And those people are the ones whom are going to both get it and feel for her. As with any film, it's going to appeal to some and not appeal to others, there's just you and your target audience. Forget about the rest :)

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 07:40 PM

I don't know how else to do that in six minutes besides showing her doing every tiny thing she does each day. We showed the audience what she does in school, the type of environment she lives in, the type of odd clothes she wears, the way she runs, the way she talks, the way she hunts for the things she has lost, and the we also showed her in distress.

I'm not sure what else I'm suppose to give an audience in a couple of minutes. Films should be more observational than anything in my book, and Blaine, I'm really not trying to quell your opinion in the matter, I value it. I want that to be clear. But I genuinely think that I gave the audience all of the information they need, and you just didn't like the character. AND THAT'S OK WITH ME. Honestly, it really is. But I do feel that everything that's necessary to the story is there. It's all subjective anyway, right?

The good thing that happens to/for her is the interaction with the boy that wanted to meet her, and that really picked her up. And once again, it just might not be your taste. A lot of others really enjoyed that, so it's just a preference thing. I understand that.

But honestly, the letter from the mother idea just feels like a rough cliche that I didn't want to touch. I wanted to try to have people care about the girl without being overtly sentimental or forcing people to feel a certain way, hence the lack of score as well. I was hoping that the text from one of her friends, who's having a GREAT time in New York, would be enough to drive home the same idea you're expressing with the letter, except make it more authentic according to today's youth. I guess we could have had her send a message back to the friend to lie to her about having a good time, but I didn't want the character to be interpreted as someone who cannot express her feelings and wants to pretend that it isn't happening. She's smarter than that.

And I feel that a person would certainly be aloof in this atmosphere, because it's something that I have felt myself, as well have seen in tons and tons of research and studies about adolescence in these types of situations, and it is VERY common to see someone acting in an aloof manner. If she were that aloof, she wouldn't have awkwardly flirted and made friends with Dylan by the end and been inquisitive about his life. That was more than just small talk. She couldn't stop smiling at him.

Does all of this make sense? I hope so. I just feel like all of this is pretty obvious.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 07:42 PM

This conversation also brings up one of the inherent problems in making a short film: one can show all of these things (which is what we should do in film, SHOW NOT TELL), but sometimes there isn't enough time (especially with a six minute limit) to get EVERYONE to feel something. As we've all said, it's going to affect different people in different ways. It has made a lot of people "feel" things, but some didn't.

A feature film has the privilege of time to allow (not to MAKE) an audience feel something. It's difficult in a short film. We gave a valiant effort, but I guess we made compromises somewhere. :huh:

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 07:44 PM

I don't know if that helps or not.

It definitely helped Blaine. I respect your opinion on the matter and I'm glad you expressed your concerns. They all made sense.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 07:47 PM

You should definitely be proud of the work! It's a good film IMO. But I wouldn't think for a moment that you didn't do your job right. I felt what you were describing above, I got it and I think most people will get the same thing, but getting it and feeling it are two different things and most of the time it doesn't have much to do with whether or not you did 'your job', it's just up to whether or not the viewer cares about that situation.

A lot of people could look at the character and say, "well heck, if she's lonely, maybe she should go make some friends.." you can so readily simplify the problem... I think many extroverts who have an easy time to connecting with people wouldn't care about this character in general because they see such an easy solution, and wouldn't understand her woes. But a more quiet person, someone more reserved, more private, or just someone who has been in her shoes before... they might 100% get it, but more importantly, 'they'd feel it', because they can sympathize with her struggle.

I think your target audience with this piece are people whom have felt like this young girl at some point in time in their life or another. And those people are the ones whom are going to both get it and feel for her. As with any film, it's going to appeal to some and not appeal to others, there's just you and your target audience. Forget about the rest :)

I agree. If you're an extrovert with a "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" sort of individualistic mentality (I'm a bit of a collectivist myself), then I suppose you wouldn't enjoy the character because she's "weak" or "feeble." But that also just says that the person viewing has half of a heart and cannot see the world from that character's perspective. And I don't care about reaching those people because they wouldn't take my opinion as something substantial anyway.

Anyway, thanks for the kind words, Geoff.

Geoff_R

03-13-2009, 07:55 PM

......A feature film has the privilege of time to allow (not to MAKE) an audience feel something. It's difficult in a short film. We gave a valiant effort, but I guess we made compromises somewhere. :huh:
One last thing I'll add... I don't think you made compromises.

Getting or even allowing the audience to 'feel' something for a character is truly the most difficult aspect of making any film. I don't care what genre, length, subject matter it is... getting a viewer to believe enough in a fabricated reality to feel anything at all for a character you conjured up in your mind is beyond hard!

I think about the countless tons of feature films I've watched and enjoyed even, yet I didn't feel for the characters... some of these are great films, oscar winning films, and while enjoyable and understandable, I sometimes don't feel for the characters. It's easy to make someone believe in a world, but to make them sorry to see your character go... that's something else entirely. I don't think there's a formula or anything special you can do... that's straight magic to me. And that's why making films is such an attractive art to pursue. There's an unexplainable facet to it that is beyond understanding and easy replication; a constant flow of creativity and expression with unknown, unpredictable results. That's a beautiful thing.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 07:57 PM

Another thing I thought of about the "lying to friends or parents" notion:

If we tried to develop that more, we'd run out of time and then THAT would be underdeveloped.

Also, considering how direct she is by asking, flat out, her question in the elevator and how she charged around looking for her key, while she's a little isolated and timid, she's also a very direct person when spoken to, which means that she probably wouldn't lie to her parents and tell them that she's fine. I just don't buy that. Once again, not knocking the idea because it's a good intention, but I wanted to clarify it a little more.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 08:01 PM

One last thing I'll add... I don't think you made compromises.

Getting or even allowing the audience to 'feel' something for a character is truly the most difficult aspect of making any film. I don't care what genre, length, subject matter it is... getting a viewer to believe enough in a fabricated reality to feel anything at all for a character you conjured up in your mind is beyond hard!

I think about the countless tons of feature films I've watched and enjoyed even, yet I didn't feel for the characters... some of these are great films, oscar winning films, and while enjoyable and understandable, I sometimes don't feel for the characters. It's easy to make someone believe in a world, but to make them sorry to see your character go... that's something else entirely. I don't think there's a formula or anything special you can do... that's straight magic to me. And that's why making films is such an attractive art to pursue. There's an unexplainable facet to it that is beyond understanding and easy replication; a constant flow of creativity and expression with unknown, unpredictable results. That's a beautiful thing.

I completely agree with everything. There are films that are so technically proficient, well-directed, and well performed that you cannot help but call it a great film. I'm a HUGE Scorsese fan, but Goodfellas, although a fantastically made and acted film, is not a film that one can find easily relatable characters or characters that one can genuinely care about sometimes, because some of them are characters don't value human life (including their own). I feel sad from a psychological and sociological about their condition, but as a person, I cannot relate to them and cannot care for them.

So good example, Geoff. But I remain firm that short films have fundamental problems with their structure. I would have loved an extra thirty seconds to a minute to elaborate on a couple of things.

Also, I might add that the films presented in this festival are what the industry itself considers "short short films." A full short film can range from twenty to sixty minutes. So we're making miniature films.

Geoff_R

03-13-2009, 08:03 PM

...So good example, Geoff. But I remain firm that short films have fundamental problems with their structure. I would have loved an extra thirty seconds to a minute to elaborate on a couple of things...

Completely agree... that's why mine's nine minutes ;)

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 08:07 PM

Completely agree... that's why mine's nine minutes ;)

haha, nice. Yeah, for the next fest we're adding just a couple of shots that might add more dynamic range that'll make the film about 6:35. I have a lot of great footage that could be added as well, but it might make it overlong. But I wanted to actually enter the competition because I've never once entered a piece of work into a contest before, and just thought I'd give it a shot.

The next three fests we're entering have time limits ranging from 15 to 30 minutes. We obviously don't need THAT much time, haha, but you get the idea.

Think of Cashback. I know a lot of people who say that they think it works as a feature, but actually made a much better short film at around 20 minutes or so. Just an example.

Blaine

03-13-2009, 08:16 PM

But honestly, the letter from the mother idea just feels like a rough cliche that I didn't want to touch.I don't blame you for that. I said it was a bad example but I wanted to give you an example of what I meant about getting into the character's mind and understanding her. Trying to explain what I meant by alone in a crowd, which I think you might have been able to expand upon with your dance class scene.

I guess we could have had her send a message back to the friend to lie to her about having a good time, but I didn't want the character to be interpreted as someone who cannot express her feelings and wants to pretend that it isn't happening. She's smarter than that.I don't see the situation so much pretending that it isn't happening as much as not wanting her friends/family to worry about her.

And I feel that a person would certainly be aloof in this atmosphere, because it's something that I have felt myselfBut that same aloofness (is that a word?) is going to bring its own response to the character, which in my case, it did. Neither right nor wrong, just the way it is.

If she were that aloof, she wouldn't have awkwardly flirted and made friends with Dylan by the end and been inquisitive about his life. That was more than just small talk. She couldn't stop smiling at him.I got that, but by the time that happened I had formed an opinion based on what I saw in the piece, and it was nice but it I wasn't left wanting to know what happened.

Does all of this make sense? I hope so.It does but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

I'm sorry but it just didn't resonate with me. I think it has more to do with the story itself than you doing your job or not. A lot of people loved Lost In Translation but I wasn't one of them. I think you'd have to admit that Sofia Coppola did her job. I wanted to like it but it just didn't happen. You've got film here that is very personal to you and you've obviously connected with a lot of people so the fact that it missed with me should be of little consequence to you.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 08:30 PM

I don't blame you for that. I said it was a bad example but I wanted to give you an example of what I meant about getting into the character's mind and understanding her. Trying to explain what I meant by alone in a crowd, which I think you might have been able to expand upon with your dance class scene.

I don't see the situation so much pretending that it isn't happening as much as not wanting her friends/family to worry about her.

But that same aloofness (is that a word?) is going to bring its own response to the character, which in my case, it did. Neither right nor wrong, just the way it is.

I got that, but by the time that happened I had formed an opinion based on what I saw in the piece, and it was nice but it I wasn't left wanting to know what happened.

It does but I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

I'm sorry but it just didn't resonate with me. I think it has more to do with the story itself than you doing your job or not. A lot of people loved Lost In Translation but I wasn't one of them. I think you'd have to admit that Sofia Coppola did her job. I wanted to like it but it just didn't happen. You've got film here that is very personal to you and you've obviously connected with a lot of people so the fact that it missed with me should be of little consequence to you.

It's hilarious that you mention Lost in Translation because we (Caroline and I) were just talking about that film and comparing Tiny Dancer to it in style, character study, and aesthetic.

I don't blame you for it not resonating with you. That's perfectly fine. What I have a problem with is the fact that adding that "lying to parents or friends" dynamic would add a completely new complex dynamic to the film that many people would think is underdeveloped and would hurt the film. This is a "short short film" and any more than simply observing this girl in her element and how she reacts to the people that talk to her would be too much. There would be too much to play with and would simply seem like we were just making a visual list of all of this girl's characteristics. It's a glimpse into a life (as we mentioned earlier, many people go unnoticed) that I wanted to raise attention to.

Anyway Blaine, I see where you're coming from, but I just feel very differently. Hindsight is always 20/20 my friend, and if we had the ability to make a few adjustments, we would. But I'm satisfied with the resulting film and even though it's subtle, I think that helps it in the end. I guess I just have a style and aesthetic that only appeals to certain types of people.

It's been fun, but I'm wondering just how much more I can analyze my own film AFTER giving every single film (besides the exhibitions, but I'm getting to those) a fairly detailed analysis.

Morox

03-13-2009, 10:53 PM

It can be hard to carry a story along with little dialogue, but you managed to do it and that in itself is a great accomplishment. Dialogue was a tad hard to hear but other than that, great job.

If your style is definitely a "show it rather than say it" type of film, check out the Korean flick 3-Iron. It's amazing considering it probably only has a page or so of dialogue throughout the film. The reason I brought this up is because your film reminded me of it in that sense.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-13-2009, 10:58 PM

armisiano

03-14-2009, 12:52 AM

I really loved this movie. Definitely one of my highest rated so far. You told such a beautiful simple story so darn well. I'm not gonna give any real technical notes, 'cause I know you know them and you've probably received comments on them (audio & focus) already. But I seriously loved this one. Great casting by the way, the actors were very believable. It's amazing, but the moments where poor acting tends to show the most is in casual contemporary dialogue like this, and you're actors did very well. Shame you're in Ohio, I'd love to collaborate.

Marlon Ladd

03-14-2009, 02:08 AM

Man, I can see you've had alot of comments here, so I definately don't want to beat a dead horse. This was a nice simple story you had here and there's nothing wrong with that. However, I guess because of the 6 minute time limit, I kept expecting for something to happen or for there to be some kind of resolution. I suppose in a sense you can say that there was, because she met the guy, but my concern is that there did not really seem like there was a reason to even be concerned about either of these characters or their lives. We really didn't know hardly anything about her (I know these are hard to do in 6 minutes) and we definately didn't know anything about him. I kept thinking he had some other kind of motive and was going to kill her or somethin'. Also, why is it important that she was a dancer? It didn't seem to have anything to do with the story (something I may have missed) and then we see her go to practice and then leave. I think if this was a longer story, that factor would be very important, but as it stands in this film so short (limitations, I know), it didn't seem to mean much, especially considering the title of the film. Also, it was so cold outside, why was she waiting outside, when the guy came up and didn't even have to use his keycard to get in the first door?

But anyway, having said all that, it was a sweet story and I did very much like your camera work and the shots you chose. I think the style in which you filmed the story really kept me involved and intrigued in the story. Also, I think your actors did a fine job. Keep at it - I do like your style of cinematography and storytelling.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-14-2009, 10:28 AM

Armisiano, Marlon, sent you both PM's.

TiJo

03-14-2009, 11:27 AM

Technical issues aside. I enjoyed this one. I love when the kid trips, that was perfect.

singleframe

03-15-2009, 05:22 AM

Technical issues aside. I enjoyed this one. I love when the kid trips, that was perfect.

i feel like there could have been a better take of that trip though. felt a few degrees over-acted for sure.

like the steadi-cam work. a lot.

the audio to me was very low and not leveled... but that can be difficult like you said, when doing sound and picture. that's why i went with wireless lavs for 80% of my flick.

funny how i also felt something creepy coming on during the elevator scene....maybe that would have been cool. or not.

great addition to the fest though for low budge..and props for utilizing the DVX100A!!
i'm gonna keep mine forever!

Lawsuit_Boy

03-15-2009, 09:39 AM

the audio to me was very low and not leveled... but that can be difficult like you said, when doing sound and picture. that's why i went with wireless lavs for 80% of my flick.

Heh, you should check out the picture on the page before this to see what I had to work with. I had absolutely no way of capturing solid audio. It sucked. :(

And yes, long live the dvx! It's a fantastic camera, and after four years with it, it's safe to say I know every one of its "ins" and "outs." I've demonstrated better cinematography with it on my vimeo page http://www.vimeo.com/user511902/videos (sorry for the shameless plug), but we have absolutely minimal lighting to work with on Dancer (basically, a china ball in one scene), so I think the cold aesthetic and the Woman is a Woman type production (white with lots of red and blue playing against each other) came out very well considering SD dv's limitations.

I recommend checking out Blue Tundra, Sallow Midwest, and Various Time Lapses first. Blue Tundra and a number of the others got onto the Vimeo HD channel as well as other specific channels, which was really cool. They were all made for a project that was to be in the same vein as Koyaanisqatsi.

The_Happy_Haole

03-15-2009, 12:33 PM

Great job, Jon. I really liked this film.

I just perused most of your thread and won't rehash a lot of the C&C's.

The elevator scene definitely gave off an awkward/creepy feel (which, thankfully, gave way to a much sweeter moment).

I'm not as big of a fan of the Stedi-cam as a lot of people (here in DVXuser-land), however, I really loved the composition of the shot at 2:45. And yes, a very "Lost in Translation" look/feel.

Overall, you made a very good film, especially seeing the picture of your gear.

Aloha

Marlon Ladd

03-15-2009, 12:38 PM

Armisiano, Marlon, sent you both PM's.
Got it!

Lawsuit_Boy

03-15-2009, 03:09 PM

I recommend checking out Blue Tundra, Sallow Midwest, and Various Time Lapses first. Blue Tundra and a number of the others got onto the Vimeo HD channel as well as other specific channels, which was really cool. They were all made for a project that was to be in the same vein as Koyaanisqatsi.

I also recommend checking out "Dry Hole" and "Breaking and Entering" for their sound design. Both have this "cold, nordic aesthetic" as someone said that feels very much like Tarkovsky and Sven Nykvist's cinematography. Pretty proud of all of my Koyaanisqatsi-like work.

MrKilloran

03-15-2009, 06:03 PM

I also recommend checking out "Dry Hole" and "Breaking and Entering" for their sound design. Both have this "cold, nordic aesthetic" as someone said that feels very much like Tarkovsky and Sven Nykvist's cinematography. Pretty proud of all of my Koyaanisqatsi-like work.

I watched Breaking and Entering, really enjoyed your scenery - it looks wonderful. Was all that shot raw with just the DVX?

Lawsuit_Boy

03-15-2009, 06:18 PM

I watched Breaking and Entering, really enjoyed your scenery - it looks wonderful. Was all that shot raw with just the DVX?

Yes sir. Everything on my vimeo page is just stock dvx with occasional touch ups. Some of the films obviously have a bit of color grading, but I try to keep that toned down. I've been obsessed with Terrence Malick films and other natural looking films for the past year or so, so that's why I've been shooting that way (except Tiny Dancer was more stylized).

Hah, but yeah, that one was pretty much raw.

MrKilloran

03-15-2009, 06:53 PM

It shows. I plan on watching some other ones too when I get the chance.

J. Erik Reese

03-15-2009, 08:09 PM

Hey I really enjoyed this film :) I liked the camera work and how you told your story with little to no dialogue. Great job!

gabrielflorit

03-15-2009, 08:18 PM

I've watched a third of the entries so far, and yours is my favorite. Actually I couldn't finish watching any others except yours. I liked the steadicam, it made me care about her, I guess cause it lets you show her world better than a tripod / handheld. And I absolutely love the last moment.

Congratulations.

Billy Pilgrim

03-15-2009, 08:53 PM

I loved this. The mood and the look were great. It was also funny for me because I have a friend named Caroline, who is an actress, and is skinny with long, dark hair and a similar nose. Great work.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-15-2009, 09:00 PM

I loved this. The mood and the look were great. It was also funny for me because I have a friend named Caroline, who is an actress, and is skinny with long, dark hair and a similar nose. Great work.

That's an odd little coincidence, eh? Haha, how bizarre. Anyway, thanks a lot!

gabriel + erik = Thank you too for your nice comments. It's very much appreciated. :beer:

Zak Forsman

03-17-2009, 05:02 PM

you're on my personal "top three" so I was genuinely surprised not to see you as a finalist. but either way I think you've got something that will shine on the festival circuit.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-17-2009, 05:08 PM

you're on my personal "top three" so I was genuinely surprised not to see you as a finalist. but either way I think you've got something that will shine on the festival circuit.

Wouldn't that be something else?

I'm working on a fresh cut for a festival here in Ohio that we're entering as well as a couple more small festivals just to see what sort of reception we receive at festivals geared toward different types of filmmaking; an experiment of sorts.

I didn't expect to make the finals, though. Thanks for all of the kind words anyway, Zak. I deeply appreciate it.

We've got another short in the works as I type this...something on LGBT and gender bending, which I'm sure won't be everyone's cup of tea here.

Will Clegg

03-17-2009, 05:53 PM

I would really like to see your revised cut when you have finished it.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-17-2009, 05:57 PM

I'll have it entered in the next fest by the third of April (probably sooner). I'll post it on my vimeo page with a password protection before that festival is set to take place so you can see it.

It's really cool because all of the films will be screened at our local theater here in Kent, so I'll get to see it on the big screen. :) Should be fun.

Michael Anthony Horrigan

03-17-2009, 06:25 PM

Good luck with this one in the regular circuit, definitely one of my favourites in this Fest.

MAH

lilcaro

03-17-2009, 06:30 PM

Wouldn't that be something else?

I'm working on a fresh cut for a festival here in Ohio that we're entering as well as a couple more small festivals just to see what sort of reception we receive at festivals geared toward different types of filmmaking; an experiment of sorts.

I didn't expect to make the finals, though. Thanks for all of the kind words anyway, Zak. I deeply appreciate it.

We've got another short in the works as I type this...something on LGBT and gender bending, which I'm sure won't be everyone's cup of tea here.

Well, maybe if we put enough crying and shouting in it, we should be cool :D

I kid, I kid!

In all seriousness, I really enjoyed most of the finalists, and I'll be rooting for my favorites :)

Hopefully, the slightly longer cut of Tiny Dancer will lend more consistent goodness haha

JCVR

03-17-2009, 06:42 PM

I really enjoyed this one. bummed you didn't make it. i'm excited that there might be a longer cut coming along.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-17-2009, 06:58 PM

I really enjoyed this one. bummed you didn't make it. i'm excited that there might be a longer cut coming along.

Thanks JCVR. It's nice to know that some people genuinely enjoyed the film and wanted it to succeed. Just wasn't the fest for our film. Plus, I think our slightly extended cut (it will only be about 45 seconds to a minute longer, depending) will help flesh out a couple of things and A) add a little more dynamic and motivation to the male character besides what he gives in the dialogue, and B) make it feel a little more fluid.

The next festival we're entering is hosted by our own University and is headed by people who more than likely have a little penchant for European-influenced films, so we might fare just a little better there.

Anyway, thanks again. :beer:

Sprocketboy

03-17-2009, 07:21 PM

It's really cool because all of the films will be screened at our local theater here in Kent, so I'll get to see it on the big screen. :) Should be fun.

That's nice! Are you sure you did all that you could do with the sound between the guy and the dancer? Even if its a tiny bit better, it will help the film overall.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-17-2009, 07:32 PM

That's nice! Are you sure you did all that you could do with the sound between the guy and the dancer? Even if its a tiny bit better, it will help the film overall.

Pretty much. I can bring the master levels of the entire piece up as well as individual clips, but the more I "clean" the audio files, the more I lose in quality. We had to make due with the dvx's on-board mic most of the time, so we picked up a ton of extra room tone.

I'll definitely tinker with the audio a lot more before the next fest in an attempt to really smooth it out. I just don't want to lose more quality than I've already lost.

(You should hear the clips raw. Plenty of signal noise).

We also don't have the time to do some correct ADR and make the sound perspective and timing correct, especially since there are a few more shots we're going to be picking up between tomorrow and Friday.

I promise, I will find a dedicated sound man for the next project who I can trust to give us smooth, clean sound.

Sprocketboy

03-17-2009, 07:47 PM

Pretty much. I can bring the master levels of the entire piece up as well as individual clips, but the more I "clean" the audio files, the more I lose in quality. We had to make due with the dvx's on-board mic most of the time, so we picked up a ton of extra room tone.

I'll definitely tinker with the audio a lot more before the next fest in an attempt to really smooth it out. I just don't want to lose more quality than I've already lost.

(You should hear the clips raw. Plenty of signal noise).

We also don't have the time to do some correct ADR and make the sound perspective and timing correct, especially since there are a few more shots we're going to be picking up between tomorrow and Friday.

I promise, I will find a dedicated sound man for the next project who I can trust to give us smooth, clean sound.

I just took another look at it and its not worth doing ADR. I rather hear the sound you have now than ADR. What did you use to clean up the sound?

Lawsuit_Boy

03-17-2009, 08:07 PM

I just took another look at it and its not worth doing ADR. I rather hear the sound you have now than ADR. What did you use to clean up the sound?

I agree. ADR would decimate any chance of smooth, inoffensive, and invisible sound.

Well, I basically played with a twenty bar equalizer in Vegas 7 to dim certain frequencies on some clips, as well as used a parametric equalizer to tone down the higher frequency signal noise and hums that I was constantly hearing.

The clips sound very much like they did before, but just a little hollowed and without the signal noise from before. I was able to do away with a lot of it. Most of those hallways reverberate quite a bit and the elevator can be heard all the way down the hall. It really was a nightmare of a situation.

Any suggestions?

Sprocketboy

03-17-2009, 09:55 PM

Most of those hallways reverberate quite a bit and the elevator can be heard all the way down the hall. It really was a nightmare of a situation.

Any suggestions?

Reverberation will kill you. I'm afraid of it. The only thing I can think of at this moment is to Duplicate the voice track and equalize it, as to eliminate all lows and all highs. Keep only between 5Khz to 6.5Khz. Fade it down the entire track until it sounds good, if at all. Its only a suggestion. It may not work at all.

Do you have noise reduction software, like Sound Soap? Give it a try if you do. Sometimes noise reduction software works, depending on how extreme the noise is in the scene. I actually used Apple's Soundtrack Pro a little bit in LOOK AT ME. Vegas may have something similar. Let me know if you succeed at any good results.

If you want, send me a swatch of your soundtrack, and I'll take a crack at it.

Good luck.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-17-2009, 10:33 PM

Reverberation will kill you. I'm afraid of it. The only thing I can think of at this moment is to Duplicate the voice track and equalize it, as to eliminate all lows and all highs. Keep only between 5Khz to 6.5Khz. Fade it down the entire track until it sounds good, if at all. Its only a suggestion. It may not work at all.

Do you have noise reduction software, like Sound Soap? Give it a try if you do. Sometimes noise reduction software works, depending on how extreme the noise is in the scene. I actually used Apple's Soundtrack Pro a little bit in LOOK AT ME. Vegas may have something similar. Let me know if you succeed at any good results.

If you want, send me a swatch of your soundtrack, and I'll take a crack at it.

Good luck.

I do have a noise reduction application in Vegas, but it only helps so much. I think that the more I do to it the worse it's going to get. I might just have to try to smooth it out in the cuts even more and just raise the master levels up and hope for the best. I'll try a couple of things and get back to you.

abraham

03-18-2009, 06:19 AM

this was tops for me. wish you'd made it man :beer:
keep 'em coming.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-18-2009, 10:24 AM

Wow, thanks Abraham. That's very kind of you. :beer:

I wish we would have as well, but I think the sound problems and the type of story/presentation hurt us in a festival like this one. The slightly extended cut will, in my opinion, be a little better and even more dynamic in regards to developing the two characters, especially the boy.

I'll definitely keep working though. Although school and work are going to be taking most of my time in the next year or so, which means I might not be around these parts very often.

Chad_from_Chad

03-23-2009, 09:37 PM

Very well shot, the old less is more theory, I loved it. kind of an awkward approach, so far another stand alone, I'm really impressed with the diversity in this competition. I liked the cold color temp too, helped the settings along beautifully.

Lawsuit_Boy

03-23-2009, 11:16 PM

Thanks for the kind words, Chad. :beer:

Lawsuit_Boy

04-01-2009, 07:13 PM

New cut of Tiny Dancer available on vimeo!

http://vimeo.com/3963034

It sheds a little more light on a few things and helps make the film feel less rushed and a little more fleshed out. I doubt anyone will see this, though. Regardless, enjoy. :)

MrKilloran

04-01-2009, 08:38 PM

Watched it, the little things really pull it together and emphasize the isolationism more thoroughly. It doesn't feel cumbersome either, its refreshing and I still found myself enjoying it.

Tim Joy

04-01-2009, 10:52 PM

I watched. You're going to hate me for saying this, but I think your other version was better in a few ways, although this one has some good additions.
The longer one drags on a bit too much for me, especially the parts after she heads home and looks for the card, whereas the shorter one gets more to the point. If you had music, I think it would work, and maybe it's worth a try, but I would cut some out.

The one thing I don't understand is why she goes to the theater/ classroom first. We've never seen it, so why wouldn't she go someplace that you've established first? I mentioned before how the picking up trash on the floor and throwing it reads as unrealistic and overacting, IMO, especially the condom. Is a girl really going to touch a condom on the floor??? I would cut that whole scene, personally.

The shots you added in the beginning felt too much as well, and it seemed like she was very consious of the camera. I detected a hint of a smile and awareness that gave me that impression. That part drags now too. Before, I really liked the opening because it told us the only thing we really need to know for the story- She's the tiny dancer in college. Enough.

Besides the fact that they should have some sort of backup to get into the building if you lose your card, (it probably happens every other day, right?) which sort of makes the premise feel false for me, I liked the stuff you added when the guy got there. I just wished you got to it sooner. Their interaction and acting is pretty good together. Good chemistry and there's some nice tension, because half your audience is probably thinking he's going to whip out a knife and start slicing any second, while the other half is thinking... whatever they're thinking. (I'm in the former group. ha ha.)

I know I've been hard on you in my two reviews, and maybe it's a little because this isn't my favorite type of film, but I think you still could do better on this piece. It seems self-indulgent now and tries too hard to be more than it is at the core: girl loses key, boy returns it to get a chance to meet her.

You'll probably dissagree with all my opinions, which is fine, but I want you to know that you obviously have talent, and there are many great things about this movie that make me look forward to your next one. Quest fest?

lawriejaffa

04-02-2009, 05:06 AM

Hey there, yeah i think the longer edit has a greater feeling of completion about it myself. I think it is an improvment - the pace at times dipped a little bit - teeny weeny bit. But is that because I've seen it before? Or because im watching it on a laptop lol

Rather than with a cup of tea before a tv screen (or this cute wee digi projector im using now heheh way more fun!)

Anyway this is an improvement I think an already excellent film. What i find quite hilarious as a producer, is juts how cheaply this feature could be made for - annnnnd how good it could be lol in comparison to my epics in development hell!!! :P

So are you not considering this as a feature as well. College student romance - has 90mins in it. If so maybe you could use some of those mumblecore film style as that might compliment your style here too!

Lawsuit_Boy

04-02-2009, 07:06 AM

Thanks you guys. Yeehaanow, I completely understand your complaints. I don't agree with all of them, but some of them I kind of do. I know it moved quicker before, but I wanted it to slow down for a minute. We wanted to see the girl actually do a little dancing/preparing for class and sort of self-examining. Since we couldn't schedule another shooting in the dance studio (Caroline isn't actually a dance student but danced in high school), we decided to do it in her room.

I can see how her attitude might tell some people that she's conscious of the camera, I guess. I didn't see it that way, personally. I saw it as a forced smile for someone who's got enough self-esteem to not get down on herself, but not enough to really be proud of who she is. I think that's what Caroline was going for. She nailed that aspect, in my opinion. But again, I can see how one might see it the way you described.

I realize it makes the runtime longer, but it just felt right to us to see her doing more. I'll look it all over again though. There may be some things I can do to help bring the pace back up.

Lawrie- Thank you again for the kind words. It means a lot to me. Glad you feel the additions helped. It feels more complete in my opinion. There were just too many tiny variables left out for people to just "assume." And while I like making my audience fill gaps, some of them were gaps that felt more like we forgot to shoot something.

I don't think this is going to turn into a feature. I'm outlining a short that focuses on the LGBT movements and gender bending, looking to remake an older film I did (but did not complete) for lovefest called Quip, and I'm thinking of an existential drama about a man in 1890 Northwest America. We're submitting Tiny Dancer to a couple other festivals (mostly ones just a little smaller than this one, hosted by college campuses).

Lawsuit_Boy

04-02-2009, 07:35 AM

Yeehaanow - one other thing I forgot to mention. Yeah, the whole "backup" to getting in the building is a bit of a plot hole that I had to sacrifice in order to tell the story, haha.

Now, there is a shred of truth to the situation. One of the doors here DID indeed get stuck like that so we had to use another door. But in the end, there are other doors that she could use. My rationalization for it, though, is that at this point, she felt so defeated and alone that she decided to just park her butt there. Because, after all, we're trying to emphasize that there's nobody around (hence the reason we shot on campus over winter break) and besides, she still wouldn't be able to get inside the building where she could sit in a chair or something until somebody came to let her in. So, while it's a little bit of a hole left for the sake of connecting the characters, there's at least a little truth behind it.

And no, I don't think I'm entering Questfest. The only project I have lined up that could even be considered to have a type of "quest" in it is the LGBT/gender bending project I'm doing, but that's something I want to put a lot of time and effort into instead of just running-and-gunning and whipping it out like Tiny Dancer. Plus, my summer's going to be too hectic to make a decent film. :(

jasonthewho

04-02-2009, 08:34 AM

Hey Jon! Checked out the new cut. I actually like the new stuff (although I have a hard time remembering what was in the first cut and what wasn't).

I have a few notes/ideas.
I'd like to see a closeup of the card on the hallway floor after she dropped it. Perhaps you don't want us to know where she lost it, so we're in the dark like she is. But I'd prefer a clearer moment there.

Here's a way to pick up the pace and excise something that to me doesn't work. I mentioned it in my last review, but I just don't think it reads properly when she slides to find the card that isn't hers. You cut from her looking under the bench, to her running through the dark room, then to her busting through those doors. Or something like that. Cutting the sliding scene and the walking outside scene. The walking outside scene kills the urgency for me. I think you have plenty of "searching" scenes, that this wouldn't hurt the story.

One other little thing. Is there any way to kill some of the silence between "Why didn't you give me the key earlier?" and "Well you were in a rush"? It just seems awkward, like, "Jon told me not to say my line until after I left the elevator." Maybe even just dub some stuttering over the part where you can't see his face.

Lawsuit_Boy

04-02-2009, 10:40 AM

Heh, the more you guys say, the more I dislike the longer cut. Eh, it all looked good on paper, but the execution seems to have fallen through.

I think you're right about everything, Jason. I don't want to get rid of the wide shot outside with the light posts as it's one of my favorite shots. I originally had it cut together so that the search was more intimate, and the further she got, the wider the shots were and the more deserted it felt. Then, she arrives at the student center, realizes she wasn't there that day, gets discouraged, and leaves.

With him holding on his line: I wanted a moment in which he has been "made," and as they come out of the elevator, the audience is transported to the 3rd floor, watches them come out, and sees him try to justify his actions. The pause felt pretty natural to me. I see what you mean though about having him start earlier, but I didn't have the luxury of capturing audio the way I would have liked to. I always stress how important it is to get good sound, but then some of my projects sound like crap. It's pretty discouraging.

At this point, I basically couldn't give a rat's behind about the film. It was really only intended to be an exercise on my part and I never thought it would even see festivals, then I adapted it for Lossfest. I really appreciate everyone giving me such solid feedback. Hopefully I'll tell the stories of my next couple of projects (which probably won't see the light of day for a LOOOONG time) a little better.

Thanks everyone. :beer:

Lawsuit_Boy

04-02-2009, 03:25 PM

The one thing I don't understand is why she goes to the theater/ classroom first. We've never seen it, so why wouldn't she go someplace that you've established first? I mentioned before how the picking up trash on the floor and throwing it reads as unrealistic and overacting, IMO, especially the condom. Is a girl really going to touch a condom on the floor??? I would cut that whole scene, personally.

Sorry, I read through all of the responses very early this morning and missed this. And I must say...really man? Do you realize how sexist that response is and what types of stereotypes you're perpetuating? It's a condom that's IN THE WRAPPER STILL. I'm sorry, I really do appreciate your critiques because they always help, but this is just too much. No one person is completely predictable, especially not an eccentric college girl trying to find her way in the world. She's searching under chairs to find her key and she doesn't care what she has to dig through. The condom was more or less a humorous stab at college sexuality/lifestyle in general.

Also, more on the condom: Caroline had no problem with the condom but did with the coffee cup. The last shot in that sequence when the cup hits her shoulder and she swats at it was a natural reaction of hers because when she threw it, she realized that there might still be coffee in it. It was a natural reaction that I caught and kept. It's odd that you're so phobic about an un-opened condom packet.

Also, just to assuage your disgust with the condom, it wasn't some condom that was actually lying there. It was nice and clean out of a box.

I just flat out disagree with this one and think that you need to watch your words a little more closely before you denigrate another gender.

jasonthewho

04-02-2009, 05:14 PM

I just want to clarify Jon, that the only realize I wrote such a specific critique is that I REALLY like your film. I understand though, the desire to let go of a project after you're done with it. But it worries me when you say you couldn't give a rat's behind about the film. It's a very good film, that you should be proud of.

Your GLBT film sounds interesting. I'd be curious to hear more about it. Keep us informed on how it goes, and let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

lawriejaffa

04-02-2009, 05:27 PM

Yep i'll follow Jason's sentiment to urge you caution not to give up too early on the refinement of your film.

Its plain and natural to be so exhausted and damn fed up after working on even a short for so long that you just thing 'enough!'

But thing is you have a little gem there - and the problem is - as often it is... that these films can stand out more than a few subsequent films ;)

Hopefully not but i can recall myself an early short that i was meh about that others liked. So keep at it as you don't want to leave something so promising unfinished (if you feel it is.)

A little vague my comments there! Apolages for that!

Lawsuit_Boy

04-02-2009, 06:54 PM

Guys, guys, I'm not giving up, don't worry. I've just had a hard day (school related, not film). I adore film and filmmaking far too much to let go because of one small project. It's in my blood and I don't see that changing.

I meant it when I said I appreciate your critiques and sentiments. I take it all to heart in order to learn how to make more precise films. And even though I blew up on yeehaanow for the little bit about the condom, I really do appreciate him taking the time to tell me what he thinks the film could improve on. And as I said, I agree with half of his complaints and there is definitely more work to be done.

I just need to get a project under my belt that makes use of a dedicated crew instead of doing it all off-the-cuff and by myself.

Lawrie, you've been a great help through the process of this fest and I'm supremely grateful for your caring remarks and kind gestures. I feel that you and I see eye-to-eye on many things and it's comforting. Thank you.

Jason, the same that I said for Lawrie goes equally for you. I'm very grateful that you've taken so much time to really give me the polite kick in the butt that I need to really get this film up to par (whatever "par" happens to be). And thank you for the offer to help on the next project in any way. I actually have some film/music friends in Texas, so this isn't too unbelievable. I'm pretty excited about the project. The LGBT community and gender equality (ALL genders) is very close to my heart. I have a lot of story ideas, but three main lines that I plan to pursue and then narrow down. It's going to tackle a number of social problems in a hopefully subtle and tactful way. But it's a project that I would certainly need dedicated crew members and talent for in order to do it justice. No more of this "backyard filmmaking" stuff like what I did on Tiny Dancer. Sure, it was just an exercise, but it could have been something special had I had a crew.

Anyway, I'll be sure to update on the progress of the story and where I plan to take it. :beer:

Lawsuit_Boy

04-02-2009, 07:11 PM

Tom Shortridge

04-02-2009, 09:01 PM

Why do you want to get rid of the stalker/rapist connotation? I think it makes his character a little more interesting, puts a little more conflict and tension in the piece.

Agreed that the original cut was much tighter and felt more refined.

One thing that bugged me the first time watching this, was also previously mentioned: when she's looking all over campus, in the auditorium, etc.... these are locations we've never seen before in the context of the film, they're not established. We didn't see her go there, and it seems like she went straight from her room to dance practice. So when she goes to the other places to look for her key... why? So there would really be two options - expand the film so she goes to all those other places she looks, before the dance practice, or cut out the whole searching aspect. Just have her go back to the dorm and be locked out.

Plus, in the longer cut, she can get back inside the building, and does go back inside at first - why does she then choose to sit out in the frikkin' cold?

So basically, yeah, I preferred the original cut, and think it might be better served by trimming rather than expansion.

Also, in regards to the comments about the condom - I don't think that was meant to be a sexist/gender biased comment. If a condom/wrapper was just lying around on the floor, I wouldn't want to pick it up, opened/used or not.

Just putting my two cents in, giving you another set of eyes on it.

jasonthewho

04-03-2009, 12:21 AM

Also: you guys just inspired me to want to try a few more shots to expand on some things. I was thinking about a shot moving in slowly on the key as it lies in the hallway, and have Dylan's arm reach down and grab it. We would see this shot cut in while Josie is searching for her pockets for the key before she runs back out to look for it. I'm not always a fan of those types of insert shots, but I think it might work here. Later, perhaps we see Dylan talking to himself, with the key nearby, sort of working through cute little scenarios of how to approach Josie. This might also help take away at least a little bit of the "stalker" or "rapist" connotation he seems to have.

Just a quick idea. Any thoughts?

Like the idea, but I might put it right when she drops it to avoid confusion. Let it sit a few beats while we see her turn the corner (out of focus), then have the hand come in. But we don't know whose hand it is, at least we're not sure.

Then, yeah, maybe right before Dylan approaches her, he can pull out the card and look at it, and then we know for sure it was him that got it.

Lawsuit_Boy

04-03-2009, 08:52 AM

Like the idea, but I might put it right when she drops it to avoid confusion. Let it sit a few beats while we see her turn the corner (out of focus), then have the hand come in. But we don't know whose hand it is, at least we're not sure.

Then, yeah, maybe right before Dylan approaches her, he can pull out the card and look at it, and then we know for sure it was him that got it.

I was thinking about that as well, but I absolutely love the way the shot following her and the shot leading into the dance studio cut together. I was trying not to break that fluidity.

And he's wearing a very distinct red hoodie, so I'm sure people would be able to assume who it was, especially later on when we see him with the key.

Just some ideas. Might do it, might not.

to Dopeyname101- Well, to respond to your comments about the rooms that weren't established prior: I didn't think it would be a problem for people to assume that these were other locations that she had been during the day. We couldn't shoot in the dance studio because we only had one opportunity to do so (remember, the actor isn't really a dance student). Also, we shot MANY more shots for the search montage, but for time's sake, they were cut.

Next, she sat out in the cold because the door got stuck and she couldn't get in. It's fairly obvious when she pulls on it MULTIPLE times and it won't budge. Not sure how you missed that one.

I think that you're right in that even though I expanded on some things, there are other elements that I can trim or just cut out altogether. Thanks for the feedback.

And once again, you're probably right that it wasn't MEANT to be a sexist comment, but it WAS a sexist comment. And once again, the condom was still SEALED in the package, aka unused. Besides, I don't see why it's such a problem. I've picked up wrappers of condoms before to toss them in the trash. It's like kids back in middle school or high school being weird about someone touching a girl's tampon, even while it's still sealed in the wrapper. Because of the connotations surrounding that one item, people are grossed out or just plain disconcerted by it. There's no blood on the tampon at that moment, just like there was no penis in the condom. And heck, even if it were the wrapper only, I doubt someone would rub it all over their crotch.

Tim Joy

04-03-2009, 10:47 AM

Jon, it's obvious that you are very attached to many aspects of your film, and I feel strongly that some of those attachments are detrimental to the film, and don't support the story.

You've gotten some great feedback from people that see the film without the attachments you have, and most of the time you have felt it necessary to explain why they didn't get it, or what it was supposed to symbolize or blah d blah blah. They are your audience. If they didn't get it, or saw things that didn't work, then maybe this a little indication that you can do better, rather than try to force it down their throats.
This is why many directors have an editor. I know, you don't, and it's really hard to detach yourself when you're a one-man-band, but if you can be really honest with yourself and always ask, "does this shot support the story?" and be willing to cut it if it doesn't, even if it's your FAVORITE shot, then you know you're at that place of detachment nirvana, and you have the potential to create something that stands on its own feet, needs no explanation, and speaks to your audience.

The condom thing. Sexist? Please... You're just being silly. If it was a male actor, I would've said the same thing about a "boy...". The acting in that part is not good.

The only reason there is a continued dialog about your film is because many of us see a lot of untapped potential. Detach, cut, repeat. You can do it man!!!!!

Oh, and your name rhymes with mine so I automatically like you. :)

Cheers- Tim

Lawsuit_Boy

04-03-2009, 11:44 AM

Heh, thanks Tim. I'm sorry about the condom thing. I do see how it looks overacted. The reason: this was originally supposed to be more comedic than it is. I wanted the search to be a little more screw-bally, but a lot of the screwball stuff got cut, so I can see how that scene feels out of place. I still think it's odd that people are bothered by her picking up a sealed condom packet, but that's just me. And once again, it was a silly little jab at one aspect of stereotypical college life.

My biggest problem is not that I can't let go of things, but that there are shots in here that support aspects of the story that I originally wrote, and I felt that they were important. Even tiny details that I felt say a great deal. I can think of four shots off of the top of my head that could be chopped right out and the thing would still fly (actually, six). But some of them just add more dynamic in ways that we didn't have the opportunity to pack into other shots. Basically, if I could go back and re-shoot some more stuff, I would. I would condense the entire thing and squeeze more out of each shot. But I can't. I really am going to heed all of the advice and see if I can let go of a few things and maybe even shoot a couple more things to make the fact that the key ends up in Dylan's possession a little more clear. I think that will help the story as well as his character. I genuinely thought, early on, that people would just assume he picked up the key after she dropped it in the hallway. I suppose that in my not wanting to beat people over the head, I actually left them scratching their heads in confusion.