:::::::::::RANT::::::::::::

[Beat Takeshi]

Hi all,
Let me just say... I HATE THE BACK BUTTON ON MY MOUSE RIGHT NOW!!!!!
I just wrote a long-a$$ rant that I'm about to write over and I touched my back button back accident >:( >:( >:( and lost everything I wrote. GRRRR. Now if I can only remember everything.

Ok, back to the subject.
Heres what I want to say to all film makers/documentarians (is that a word?) out there that film underground stories. I have a friend that is a well known graffiti writer from back in the 80's and he still keeps up with it. He just got arrested for something he did on a film a few years ago that the authorities saw a few weeks ago. I think it even made the papers or something, my mother told me they were going to arrest him for it and sure enough they did.
As film makers we have the responsibility to research everything we possibly can about the subject we are about to document and show the world (hopefully). Know the consequences of any actions that may be illigal and pass on a warning to the subject that may be about to create his own evidence that can be used against him. This is only fair. I believe that someone else got tagged for street racing after a film about underground racing came out also and I'm sure there are countless others.
I'm sure everyone that does underground content driven docs are always looking for that special questionable story or scene that will make your film memoriable and I'm one of them. I am in a project that deals with human morallities and if I cross the line someone could get hurt if not arrested. I am terrified that I will be responsible or the cause of something like an arrest or worse.
I dont think this post was half as good as the first one but at least I got something out.
Thanks for listening.
OPp..

[shAi]

hey oppressor... only now i see Richard Leac0ck in your signature... i know u said it before.. i didn't get it . . *:p
anyway.. regarding your post here, first, there are "release" papers that you as a producer should sign your talents or participators on. it includes anything from payment (or no-payment), legal stuff, responsibilities and all the rest of the law jargon which i'm not so much familiar with. . .
now, morality wise, i believe that who ever feels free to expose himself, either by breaking the law out in day light, or by filming himself to a documentary.. he is the only responsible for his deeds, not me, the filmmaker, the "medium", the messenger etc.

i do think that the filmmaker is responsible for his piece though, and for what it represents, on all levels, including morality.. but i guess that this is not what you're talking about..
*
but tell us about your project.. if you can. . .

btw.. "back button" on the mouse ?!?! what is it a helicopter joystick that u use there?? * * :D

[Beat Takeshi]

ok, that sucked. I just wrote for almost an hour in response to you shai on what this was about and when I clicked POST, it gave me an error saying it was too long and click the back button to resubmit. Guess what, THE FOOKIN THING IS GONE!! JEEEEZ LUISE. SOOOOOOoooo, since I just lost that, what do other people think about talking about your project before its done? (no I didnt write this as a cop-out, I really went into depth about what was going on and what I was doing but I was thinking about should I tell?)
Man that sucked...

[Zoomforce]

Its a tough call. You would think alot of people realize that if they are on camera it could come back and bite them in the ass.. I know people who dont use bank machines for that very reason. As a filmmaker though, It is vital for us to capture what we can and present it as real as possible. This is where being personally involved with a subject or talent can create a dilema, but you got to choose to create the art or just look the other way.. Dont know if that made any sense.

And Rick, I have been trying to fix that stupid back button clearing thing for months. Sorry :(

[ScreechingHalt]

First - the back button: In order to protect yourself, periodically select all your text and copy it to the windows clipboard.

Better yet, open up NotePad and compose your stuff there, then paste it into your post. If I am going to sit down for a nice juicy mind dump - that's what I do. I have lost too many posts on other forums to risk the frustration.

(a nice juicy mind dump? Sometimes I even offend myself!)

Regarding the moral dillema, if you caution your subject that people will see this, maybe a lot of people and maybe even some law enforcement types, then it is their call, however, I would still feel uncomfortable "assisting" someone into an error of judgement. Ultimately, we make the final call. We may have a clearer idea of the consequences than some egotistical teenager or adult glory hound. They are responsible for their own actions, as we are responsible for ours. Just my two cents.

[Flintstone]

Well, if you intend on protecting your subjects, then blurring out their face (or distinctive features) in post would probably be the better course of action. And to paraphrase what shAi mentioned, nothing beats release forms. But then that doesn't “morally” help either… Right?

Your project, whatever it may be, will be seen sooner or later by some sort of law enforcement staff. If your filming a bunch of a** holes that deserve being arrested, then so be it. But my understanding is that you are filming real people stuck in real situations in which they cannot easily get out of. Whatever the case, as a filmmaker, if you feel your subjects should be protected, simply change you lighting and camera angles to somewhat “hide” your subject if post-blurring is out of the question.

[ScreechingHalt]

One thing to think about - if you protect your subject, the enforcers might come after YOU to give up the info. Then you have to claim immunity as a journalist.... iffy, very iffy.

If you don't collect the names and tell them not to tell you, then you might be considered an accomplice. Nasty.

[Neil Rowe]

a little brother of a friend of mine was recently ticketed alot of money for videotaping some kids doing stunts and stuff on their motorcyles on the hwy. he was in the backseat of a car driving next to them as they did the stuff. he was considerd an accomplice to the illegal activity, because he knew them, and had preconspired to bring the cam there to tape them doing their stuff.

[J.R. Hudson]

Maybe we have Jared issue us Press Badges? *My point being:

If a journalist shoots and covers an event that is considered illegal, the journalist is never held liable; he/she is just doing their job.

So, Jared need's to create a faux DVX.COM newssite to protect us all.

[Zoomforce]

John.. its somewhat of a idea I have been thinking about... but more a dvxuser.com news thing, where people can go out and shoot some stuff and then post little clips. Good thing about that whoever is involved gets press credentials which is usually needed to cover some more hollywood stuff or other planned events. *

I was thinking of this as I know we have alot of run and gun journalists here at the site, and it seems that most of the stuff right now is more directed to filmakers making shorts and indy features. It would be nice to give everyone a little something to post or do.

[J.R. Hudson]

Interesting. I could be filming the Huge Fires that are sweeping through San Diego and with a 'press' badge I could get up close and personal; not that I want to get real up close and personal with the fire.

Keep me in the loop; you never know, I'm about an hours and 20 minutes from Hollywood; you know, where all of the events take place.

It's an intriguing idea.

[Zoomforce]

Yes.. sounds good... and is exactly what I have been talking about.

[J.R. Hudson]

Ya know...

There could even be SECTIONS?

SPORTS
EVENTS
NEWS
ACTION
EXTREME

That's it. I'm going to get on the floor at the Laker game with the DVX! Yeah baby!

[ScreechingHalt]

More sections:

Society
Fashion
Glamor
Industry
Science
Environment
Aeronautics
Space

Count me in!

[J.R. Hudson]

The footage could even be made availble for purchase by entities looking for coverage on specific event's or stock footage perhaps? Hell, for those that are picked to participate it could almost be a shareware kind of footage?

Let's say I shoot some nice footage of the San Diego International Airport and one of you requires FOOTAGE of this for your project. But you're living in Vancouver or Andover, MA ;).

Maybe I need some footage of the Northeast in the winter, or of Vancouver? Then we get a small credit as 2nd Unit Dp or something....

hmmmm.

[J.R. Hudson]

Now I'm ranting...

Film is such an illusion. One can be in MA or Canada and I can take some establishing shots of San Diego; the beaches, North Island Naval Air Station; The Pacific Fleet; San Diego Zoo...

The list is endless. Suddenly a small project done in Vancouver has the illusion it was shot at he Tijuana Border Crossing...

[ScreechingHalt]

Now we begin playing with the big boys and girls.....

[Flintstone]

Wow! This is idea is really big. Coupled with the DVXuser "journalist" badge for immunity concerning "shaddy" footage... ;) Hmmm... I like it! Where do I sign up? ;D

[ScreechingHalt]

What we are talking about here - obviously - is the birth of a stock agency/news service/online magazine empire.

[Zoomforce]

Tis a good idea.. I know. I just need to organize it a little to make sure there are no kinks.

[Flintstone]

Sounds easy enough! This shouldn't take you more then a week-end to do? ::)

Yeah, Right! ;D

[J.R. Hudson]

This could be epic. We're on to something here.

[Neil Rowe]

id like to get in on this... sounds like fun.

[Zoomforce]

Well sounds cool then. I will start some coding then this week.

[Beat Takeshi]

I love that idea. Then we can do collaberation footage DVDs and sell them like the jumpback series. Then with the money we go out and make a feature film with the 40 DVXs we have together. I also posted some clips and stills in the screenshot section.

[Zoomforce]

yeah... you got it. The bandwidth bills I am starting to get are pretty insane... adding streaming video is gonna put it through the roof. Since we are all using the same camera we can all agree on a set of standards (settings) so all the footage looks relatively the same.

I think between all of us on a global scale when things happen somewhere at least one of us can shoot it at any given time and it may be valuable to someone.

Although Richard I am a little scared to see the news that you will bring back :-X

[Neil Rowe]

speaking of news..anyone want to see some footage from tha madison halloween party(sort of like mardi gras, but for halloween), about 50,000+ people come in costume to wander our beloved downtown state street, last year they started rioting a bit, but theres always stuff to see. some poeple get real crazy, and are out in a thong and a feather hat in the nice wisconsin end of october weather freezing their jibbles of i imagine, but they are smiling all the same. not sure i want to risk taking the dvx there yet though.. it gets really crowded and somwhat volatile with all the drunken costumed weirdos. id hate to catch a brick in the lense. or my head for that matter...yeah not the head. but always some interesting (to say the least) costumes at hand.

[Zoomforce]

yes.. this is what I am talking about :)

[Beat Takeshi]

I have really cool footage of fantasyfest 2002 in key west. this one girl walked around with just painted shorts on and she had a clit ring on that lit up to draw the eye down. Painted boobs were the norm. This one girl had this really cool painted on latex catwoman suit.

[J.R. Hudson]

Oppressor

I am at the office right now. Will you knock it off. :D

[Flintstone]

Oppressor!!! Where are the PICTURES? ? ? ? ? The CLIPS? ? ? ? You taunt us with delicious mental pictures... You have to back your words! Cruel... Cruel... :'( :'( :'(

[Beat Takeshi]

heh, I'm at work toooo :P I have them at home I guess I could post. I made a VCD demo when I was thinking of selling it like a girls gone wild type thing even though its not raunchy like that. Just alot of painted boobs. Oh by the way, they were shot on some little sony DCR-PC110 i use for a deck.

[Neil Rowe]

ok heres the event i was talking about.. you think i should risk taking the dvx there? im still undecided..

http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/stories/60113.php


i may just take a small digital still.. or even just an old slr 35mm i never use..after all when i go to this thing i wear shin gaurds under my pants, and arm bracers under my shirt, and dress lightly so i can move quick just in case. maybe thats just my paranoia, or perhaps my martial art common sense.. realistically people would say the first if nothing happend, and the second if somthing did..
i figure better safe than sorry.

[J.R. Hudson]

That's a tough call considering you're not being paid and I assume insurance wouldn't cover something like this? How about the DVX you have? Is that insured? (Something I am looking into).

People like being on camera, that's for sure and I can't imagine people trying to fuck up your DVX on purpose. However, the crowd starts ebbing and flowing and shit starts getting tossed and thrown and you might find yourself picking up the peices of your DVX.

I like to think it would be okay; have to use common sense and keep yourself and your equipment at a relative safe distance (like the combat photographer!).

That's a tough call. I'm not comfortbale wiht mine yet which would make me not want to do something like that.

[Zoomforce]

Bring someone big to spot you.

[Neil Rowe]

yeah..id be there with a few members of my shaolin kempo school, but even still it not like we can bust our way out of 65000 people.. lol. whats kindof hard to picture, is that all of these poeple are conatined within about 3-4 blocks on one road.. so its nearly standing room only at somtimes, .. i was trying to think of a rooftop i could shoot from, but could only think of a parking ramp somewaht close that id need a tele lense to get any good results from,and the problem with having a camera on the street is that people often get really crazy in front of it, and some people dont like being recorded so they get all up in your face trying to start somthing.. now at that point i have the choice of kicking their teeth out and having the cops drop me with a can of pepper spray, and only hearing my dvx hit the pavement when they tackle me when i scream " auuuughhhh my eyes ..my eyes it burns.. what have you done,, i cant see.. augghhhhh. im melting!!", or i can let them make the first move which will undoubtedly be grabbing the camera in some malicious attempt to point it in a direction that dosent include thier sorry mug. even the news people usually wait untill its almost over an people are leaving to try and get footage. .. i guess im better off with just an old 35mm no way im even going to take my digital now that i think about it. every year i go theres always people looking to start somthing. anyhoo, if i go at all tonight, maybe ill scan i some stills if i bring a cam.-

oh and no the cam is not insd.. i'd remorsefully buy another one if i had too.

btw you guys are great, i love this forum, and the people and knowledge wealth here. keep up the good work guys**, and i wanted to add on a personal note that if i dont make it back. i love you all..
..a tear. bury me with my dvx in hand.
lol


**guys is meant to be a gender nuetral term and is in no way intended to exlude any female members. only dumb or stupid looking animals were harmed in the making of this post. please use with care, and avoid direct sunlight if you are dracula. all entries must be completed by ..oh your too late already. all comlpaints will be promptly responded to with an automated e-mail stating that our dad can beat your dad up. -end transmission.

[Zoomforce]

Hey if you can afford it one of those little handheld JVC or Sony or Canon Elura type camera may work, or you can go with the bullet cam.. I use a bulletcam gaffered to a pair of sunglasses that is a little less obvious that a camera.. problem is the picture kinda sucks.

[Neil Rowe]

i was thinking about doing somthing like that, one of those little web cam thingies for 30.00 or so. hmm. you have sparked my imagination again.

[tawsy]

Hey back to the DVX news site. Sounds like a fantastic idea. We could put requests for footage from other users spread all over the world. I'm sure someone somewhere wants some footage from downunder. :) perhaps a kangaroo or two, maybe a koala bear! :P Seriously though this is one of the best ideas I have ever heard. What sort of criteria would you have to put on membership or could you just leave it reasonably open like the forum is now? I wonder if press credentials issued from the site would hold any sway in other countries?? Zoom if you need any research done from this side of the globe just let me know I'd love to help get something like this up and running.

[Flintstone]

Wow Zoom, seems to me that you'll have a busy week-end! ;)

[J.R. Hudson]

[quote author=tawsy link=board=Offtopic;num=1067305196;start=25#38 date=11/01/03 at 00:12:48]Hey back to the DVX news site. Sounds like a fantastic idea. We could put requests for footage from other users spread all over the world. I'm sure someone somewhere wants some footage from downunder. :) perhaps a kangaroo or two, maybe a koala bear! quote]

YES YES YES

This is exactly what we're talking about. I'm telling you, a small film in Berlin can suddenly have the illusion of multiple locations.

I live in San Diego. One of the benes of this is we have within 2 hours in every direction:

MEXICO
DESERT (Actual sand dunes here)
OCEAN
HOLLYWOOD
MOUNTAINS (Actual snow and slopes)

[Flintstone]

I can only imagine the bandwidth needed to download DV matetial. *Poor Zoom, he's gonna get hit real hard with his ISP bill! *;D *Not to mention codec issues. (Vegas, Matrox, Microsoft, Canopus, Quicktime, MainConcept, etc.) *:o

I any event, the concept is terrific, and I think there is tremendous potential. I wonder how we could bypass the physical limitations?

[Flintstone]

DVD is OK! But we have to ask ourselves one question though. Can we live with the MPEG2 compression? If the answer is yes, then DVD is fine. But then, we could also live with MPEG2 downloadables too, or what about high bitrate MPEG4?

All things to consider I suppose. :-/

[shAi]

we can maybe assemble a long long (long) pan over the sky line of all the cities we're living in. we can decide on some technical preferences (encoding, aspect ratio etc.) but it actually doesn't have to be too strict.. no seem-less morphing in post production, just something to symbolize our. . .hmm... unity and belief in digital future . .ok.. that was a try

[Zoomforce]

yes.. delivery is the main problem I am stuck on.

[Flintstone]

True, but besides the fact that you could only have approximately 21 minutes of raw DV (and that would probably be more then enough for our sharing application), there is still the question of codec (i.e. Vegas, Quicktime, Mainconcept, Canopus, Matrox, Microbesoft). It would probably be a good thing to settle on a single codec to share the files. Are there any crossplatform codecs out there that would suite our needs?

[tawsy]

It seems we would need to come to some agreement on some standards to be used in the group. There is also the problem of PAL and NTSC gear. I'm not sure how we could easily get around that problem but I'm sure we could figure it out. We could have some sort of user pays system to cover the cost of bandwidth or as has been suggested just use the old snail mail and deliver it as a hard copy. I'm guessing Quicktime would be the most popular codec? Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Beat Takeshi]

wow, 48 posts and still going...

[shAi]

49 ;)

[Zoomforce]

Shai.. super 50 :)