How to make a Winning short for LossFest...

[Tim Joy]

I don't know how to do it through experience, only through observation. Presented here is a list of suggestions only, based on my short time here for the last two fests. I'm sure other's will have additions...


How to make a winning short

1. Write a GREAT script. Duh... The winners have great scripts. It is your template, your bible, and your ticket to attract talent. What is a great script? I don't know, but they usually follow a basic formula- A Story, problem, or question is developed early on so that it keeps the viewer interested enough to follow the character(s) on a journey that often concludes with a twist, or otherwise satisfying resolution. All 6 winning entries followed this formula, because for a 6 minute movie It works.

2. Cast great ACTORS. If you're successful at #1, #2 is much easier. Every actor wants to work with a great script. It might take some bribery $$, depending on where you live, but get actors that knock your socks off.

3. Immerse the cast, crew, and yourself in the script. This means rehearsals with cast and crew, production meetings, story-boarding, equipment tests, CC test, music choices...etc. All with one goal in mind- Support the story and the script through artistic and technical choices. Rehearsal with the cast is the most beneficial, so if you can only do one thing, do that.

4. Plan everything. Very little is left to happy accidents in movies; most everything is intentional and rooted in the script and story. There's enough to think about as it is on set. You will do yourself big favors to have: a shotlist, in shooting order with storyboards, sketches, or test-shots and approximate time to allow for each shot; lighting plan, sound plan, set dressings and props, makeup plan, costumes, food, equipment checklists, and jokes. Sure, why not have a few jokes ready when the vibe turns bad. :)

5. When shooting, use "problems" as opportunities for creativity. Being too rigid with your plan can lead to disaster. Be flexible and keep the creative energy flowing. This is when happy accidents occur most.

6. Make the technical side invisible. This covers getting good sound, lighting, camera operation, angles, movement, color, framing, makeup, continuity, rules and conventions, music, sound fx, and anything else that is used to support the story, but will detract if it is noticeably bad. These technical skills are very knowledge and experience intensive. It takes years to develop skills in so many areas, but luckily you have a vast support base right here. Just ask, or browse around, and you will find answers to all your questions.


Lastly, Have fun. If it's not fun at least most of the time, why would you do it?

I hope this isn't too preachy and helps somebody.

[Brandon Rice]

Sadly... a lot of that won't apply to me :(

[Tim Joy]

In a way it does. A doc has to have a story too. Your actors are your subjects you choose to document. Your shotlists....well, you might have to be very flexible in that department. :)

[alex whitmer]

Great stuff. I have yet to be behind the camera - someday maybe - but certainly see the value in the post for those who are.

Story first!

alex

[hunter richards]

7. Shoot with a Red camera

[Matty_g]

^ lolz

[ZetKey]

Those rules must be applied not only in the winning short, but for all shorts :thumbup:


7. Shoot with a Red camera
LOL
Have someone to your movie said "Your movie is boring, bad acting, bad editing, try Red camera, it is amazing!" ? LOL

[ThereIsNoLimit]

RED doesn't need script.
Script needs RED.

[Richard J. Johnson]

Great post! I totally agree. This should be a Sticky.

The last two fests were won by RED cam users Right?

[jasonthewho]

Last three.

[majikfraug]

Yeah but there were a bunch of losers shot on REDs too :)

[ugafan]

crying. lots and lots of crying.

[sean90291]

Yeah but there were a bunch of losers shot on REDs too :)

Which other shorts were shot on Red?

[gabrielflorit]

I would rather....

Hello, Hello

[Larry Rutledge]

You would rather what?

Yes, Hello ... we hear you ... you would rather what?





:grin:

[gabrielflorit]

oh yeah? In the words of Sabi, IFHY!

[ZazaCast]

IFHY was shot on a RED? ...I didn't think so.....

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

IFHY was shot on a RED? ...I didn't think so.....
Nope. HV20 with adapters.
I'm not sure that's what he was implying.

[ZazaCast]

Nope. HV20 with adapters.
I'm not sure that's what he was implying.

Just playing along... he changed his post...originally it just said,"ifhy".

...now who's on first....:)

[Robbie Comeau]

Broadcast.
O2.
6" 45RPM EP

:)

Great post!

Robbie

[justin ewart]

great advice. i think sound is especially important after a good script and decent actors. it's amazing how much you'll forgive in terms of what you're seeing if the sound is professional. but no matter how good what you're seeing is, if the sound is bad, i find it just makes the whole thing seem really amateur.

[AJ Brooks]

If you're successful at #1, #2 is much easier...

lol, I would expect to find this advice at WebMD.

[ugafan]

i'm surprised no one has mentioned sleeping with fest master, larry r. not that anyone has done that or anything... okay maybe one guy did it once. but i swore not to mention that. i'm not going to reveal his name. no matter how hard you twist my arm. okay it was mark.. mark harris!

man does that feel good to get that off my chest.

[WayneB]

Guideline to makin a winning short.

I cannot tell you how much we, I, appreciate your help in providing all this very helpful information and useful tools to improve our products.

Wayne

[TimurCivan]

Broadcast was shot on RED???

Cool.

[Zak Forsman]

okay it was mark.. mark harris!

man does that feel good to get that off my chest.

that's what he said.

[Mark Harris]

i'm surprised no one has mentioned sleeping with fest master, larry r. not that anyone has done that or anything... okay maybe one guy did it once. but i swore not to mention that. i'm not going to reveal his name. no matter how hard you twist my arm. okay it was mark.. mark harris!

man does that feel good to get that off my chest.

Well I must not have been that satisfying cause I've never gotten higher than second place :)

[Matty_g]

i only won lovefest because i shot on red.

ps. rent a redone from me for your lossfest short

[hunter richards]

Thanks for admitting that Matty G...

Now you need to shoot on 5 Reds to win lossfest.

[Matty_g]

the current plan is 4 reds in stereo 3d rigs with anamorphic lenses.
will one more push me to the win?

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

I don't know how to do it through experience, only through observation. Presented here is a list of suggestions only, based on my short time here for the last two fests. I'm sure other's will have additions...


How to make a winning short

1. Write a GREAT script. Duh... The winners have great scripts. It is your template, your bible, and your ticket to attract talent. What is a great script? I don't know, but they usually follow a basic formula- A Story, problem, or question is developed early on so that it keeps the viewer interested enough to follow the character(s) on a journey that often concludes with a twist, or otherwise satisfying resolution. All 6 winning entries followed this formula, because for a 6 minute movie It works.

2. Cast great ACTORS. If you're successful at #1, #2 is much easier. Every actor wants to work with a great script. It might take some bribery $$, depending on where you live, but get actors that knock your socks off.

3. Immerse the cast, crew, and yourself in the script. This means rehearsals with cast and crew, production meetings, story-boarding, equipment tests, CC test, music choices...etc. All with one goal in mind- Support the story and the script through artistic and technical choices. Rehearsal with the cast is the most beneficial, so if you can only do one thing, do that.

4. Plan everything. Very little is left to happy accidents in movies; most everything is intentional and rooted in the script and story. There's enough to think about as it is on set. You will do yourself big favors to have: a shotlist, in shooting order with storyboards, sketches, or test-shots and approximate time to allow for each shot; lighting plan, sound plan, set dressings and props, makeup plan, costumes, food, equipment checklists, and jokes. Sure, why not have a few jokes ready when the vibe turns bad. :)

5. When shooting, use "problems" as opportunities for creativity. Being too rigid with your plan can lead to disaster. Be flexible and keep the creative energy flowing. This is when happy accidents occur most.

6. Make the technical side invisible. This covers getting good sound, lighting, camera operation, angles, movement, color, framing, makeup, continuity, rules and conventions, music, sound fx, and anything else that is used to support the story, but will detract if it is noticeably bad. These technical skills are very knowledge and experience intensive. It takes years to develop skills in so many areas, but luckily you have a vast support base right here. Just ask, or browse around, and you will find answers to all your questions.


Lastly, Have fun. If it's not fun at least most of the time, why would you do it?

I hope this isn't too preachy and helps somebody.
7. Write and conceive for YOUR resources. Look around you. What can you use to build a story around. If you're a 3D effects wiz, or best friends with Sean Connery then it's probably cool to write that post apocalyptic mutant story with the 65 year old Scottish detective that must come out of retirement. If your hometown wasn't recently leveled by a hurricane and you don't know a COMPETENT 65 year old that can do a FLAWLESS Scottish accent, then don't write and expect to pull off that movie. If all your actors are your age, write something for actors your age. In theater we'll suspend our disbelief and by that a 22 year old is a 65 year old. In film, everything has to be believable enough to not be distracting. OR and it's a big or, be part of a consistent style that's believable within its own set of rules.
8. Don't forget Art Direction. You're film's look is not only determined by what lights you use and where you put the camera. Do not forget art direction. You don't have millions of dollars. But if yuo follow rule #7 and write a scene in an old rusted bus abandoned in a field of wheat because you pass one on the way home from work everyday, then half the art direction will be done for you. But along with camera angles / moves / lenses and lighting WHAT you put in front of the camera is EQUALLY important as where you put it/ how you light it. Don't leave it to figure out on set. How can the environment serve the story - cleaner, dirtier, slicker, more chaotic? etc.

[hunter richards]

Yes. The 5th Red camera doesn't actually get used to shoot the film, you just use it as a cheap prop (it actually has to get destroyed though). "The death of a 4k camera"

[hunter richards]

JDS- you totally jacked my #7 tip...

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

you said "jacked"

[hunter richards]

Thats actually kinda funny!

[Mark Harris]

I would've thought flying tupperware would be a shoe-in, but alas...

[Rodney V. Smith]

8. Don't forget Art Direction. You're film's look is not only determined by what lights you use and where you put the camera. Do not forget art direction. You don't have millions of dollars. But if yuo follow rule #7 and write a scene in an old rusted bus abandoned in a field of wheat because you pass one on the way home from work everyday, then half the art direction will be done for you. But along with camera angles / moves / lenses and lighting WHAT you put in front of the camera is EQUALLY important as where you put it/ how you light it. Don't leave it to figure out on set. How can the environment serve the story - cleaner, dirtier, slicker, more chaotic? etc.


That is a rule that so many of us forget to follow. We take whatever locations we have and don;t bother with dressing the set appropriately, forgetting that real life doesn't play very well on camera.

One thing we have to remember with set design is that "WE'RE NOT SHOOTING A DOCUMENTARY". It doesn;t have to be the way it looks in real life. THe set should always work to elevate the look of the environment. It's a heightened reality. So that plain white wall you were planning to shoot in front of, or that tiny bathroom that is plain in life and even plainer on camera becasue we're only seeing parts of it? They don't work and most times just serve to kill the feel of the scene dead in the water.

$20 in a dollar store goes a long, long way. Hell, $30 in the fabric despartment, even in odds and ends, or even from a thrift store.. those go a long way to creting a scene. Take a look at the environment you;re going to be shooting in and then plan on how you;re goign to dress it up.

Remember Walmart has a GREAT return policy,and if you;re using a credit card it's like you never spent it.

[Zak Forsman]

Remember Walmart has a GREAT return policy,and if you;re using a credit card it's like you never spent it.

on both features WHITE KNUCKLES and HEART OF NOW, we made thousands of dollars in purchases AND RETURNS to Home Depot, K-Mart and Anna's Linens for art direction and things like extension cords, etc.

[Rodney V. Smith]

on both features WHITE KNUCKLES and HEART OF NOW, we made thousands of dollars in purchases AND RETURNS to Home Depot, K-Mart and Anna's Linens for art direction and things like extension cords, etc.

Oh yeah! I forgot about Home Depot and their return policy as well. I only have good words to say about it! Excellent and highly recommended. Okay, it's not the kind of recommendation that they;d like, but what the heck.

[Rodney V. Smith]

On "THE TRADE" we needed a cave, and of course we're in the heart of Atlanta, so we just created something "cave-like" in the basement. Created more the "environment" of the cave than the reality. Fabric draped here and there and silhouetted looks so rock like.

just be creative with the materials you have at hand. You'll be surprised what you come up with. It's what a lot of Art Departments do anyway: they use what thay have in different and creative ways.

[hunter richards]

All in good humor:

9. Instantly whip-up a half-ass film poster and signature.

OK so you may not have a concept yet, or even a title... FO-GET-AHH-BOWT-IT!. What you need to do is make a movie poster and start a new thread with a temporary title that doesn't make any sense. Whats important is that you let everyone know that you are making a film (probably) and that you were one of the first people to have a poster! Dont forget to reserve the first 3 posts in your thread for BTS photos, frame grabs, and blogs- even though you know you probably wont update them with that information.


10. Bump your film's thread after every response, or just do it for no reason.

People need to see your film's thread at the top of the page, the longer you stay on top of the page, the greater your chances are of winning. This might take you not leaving the computer for the next three months but that is the commitment you may need to make. Add responses to anything that anyone says, or even just make something up. Whats important is to get people to feel comfortable on your thread. After you get 100 pages or so, all you need to do is shoot something on the Red and your golden.

[Mike Manning]

11. Crew Up!
Guys you can't make these films by yourself. Find people who are good at certain things and delegate work to them. And for those maniacs out there that CAN DO EVERYTHING... delegate the work anyway, because GUARANTEED, your film will benefit from collaboration.

[Rodney V. Smith]

11. Crew Up!
Guys you can't make these films by yourself. Find people who are good at certain things and delegate work to them. And for those maniacs out there that CAN DO EVERYTHING... delegate the work anyway, because GUARANTEED, your film will benefit from collaboration.


hear hear. crew helps maintain your sanity and you actually get things done faster.

[Michael Anthony Horrigan]

11. Crew Up!
Guys you can't make these films by yourself. Find people who are good at certain things and delegate work to them. And for those maniacs out there that CAN DO EVERYTHING... delegate the work anyway, because GUARANTEED, your film will benefit from collaboration.There's no GUARANTEE. :)

I've actually been shopping around (locally) for a DP. So far from the reels I've seen.... my work would suffer.
I'm far from perfect, have plenty to learn, and I would HAPPY to have someone come on board and shoot my film for me.
Still, I'm not going to let some schmuck who can barely handle a camera shoot it either.

If I was in L.A. I would jump into THIS (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=153402) thread and take full advantage. Some of us don't live in L.A. though do we. :)

EDIT: On the flip side. I go over my scripts with some of the best writers DVXuser has to offer and I try to use talented actors in my films.
If I could use a talented crew... I would do so. Might get me out of placing in the finals the past 3 festivals and move me into the top 3.
A better camera might help as well. :)

Cheers,

Mike

[Morox]

Since I live in the middle of butt-fu** nowhere, casting is nearly impossible. I am going to have to get some "creative" friends to give me a hand with this one.

[Richard J. Johnson]

12. Develop alliances and make a name for yourself on this site.
The more people that know you here, the more votes you will get. good or bad.

[Jack Daniel Stanley]

But number of votes does not help

Theoretically, if 10 people rate for your movie as a 10, your crew say, and those are the only ratings you have, and 100 people rate Fat Monster's movie an average of 8.0. You win.

The reason that's theoretical is that Larry would throw those 10 ratings out or that would be considered too small a sample.

But in the range of # of votes people actually get, the difference is seldom as spread as the above example, and the few people that only get 20 or so ratings could actually benefit from that if the ratings were all good.

Now if you want to talk about hype blinders and that predisposing people to rate a film higher than they otherwise might, well sure that's something to consider, but I know the films that were viewed and rated most in the last few fests did not win 1st place, with the exception of 02.

Are the most viewed / rated films in the top three? Yes but they don't always win.

Notice also I'm saying number of ratings, vs. number of votes. That's because we don't have votes anymore. Just ratings.
:beer:

[Tim Joy]

I was hoping to see this thread die, because it now seems very arrogant of me to claim THIS is how to make a winning short... but maybe it will help a few people who can see past that.

The other suggestions, even in jest, are all relevant, and highlight the immense amount of talent and work it takes in many areas to make a hit movie. Marketing is definitely a big factor in the "real" world and in the festivals here too. Some entries have much better marketing than the film lives up to, which to me is sad in a way, because all that time and energy used for pumping the thread and feeding the hype machine might have been better spent rewriting the script and producing a better movie. To each his own...

I feel pretty confident that 96.7% of the low-rated entries needed work on the script as their main "flaw", and I would highly encourage everybody to seek advice from friends, family, and users here about their script. The Scriptfest III is perfectly timed so we can find some great writers who might be willing to at least read your script and give feedback, or maybe even rewrite it. Check 'em out.

Here's to making movies :beer::beer::beer: -the most tedious and challenging art-form in existence.

[abalex]

Seriously man, it's all about the type of mic you use...:)

g.

[natemac42]

This thread turned out to be an interesting read.

I might do lossfest, but with no hopes of winning, just for the sake of having a topic to make a short on.

[rcolazo89]

This thread turned out to be an interesting read.

I might do lossfest, but with no hopes of winning, just for the sake of having a topic to make a short on.

Yes it did. I am relatively new to this site after purchasing my DVX. It is interesting to find a forum where no one is bashing each other. I am also considering a low-no budget lossfest short with no real hope of winning, just as you are :) can't wait to see what the people with a mass amount of resources create. good luck

[ZazaCast]

It is interesting to find a forum where no one is bashing each other.

You ARE new...hang around...you'll see.:)


....and Welcome!