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View Full Version : New 5DII footage ....and some thoughts about Scarlet



f64manray
11-17-2008, 10:53 AM
New 5DII Footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0-1LxXinjU&feature=related&fmt=18

Back Flip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzOo46YMMog&NR&fmt=18



I'm kind of disappointed with the Scarlet announcement. All Willy Wonka and his magical camera factory needed to do was give us a 5DII with 24p and full manual controls and he would have scored big time with thousands of users. Instead he offered a 6K 35mm full frame Scarlet body only for $12,000. Many, Many people don't need or want 6 friggin K. Really, I think 35FF 2K at $3,000 would be fine. That is the benchmark and he failed (we'll see what the market saysif these are ever released). The market was only looking for a mildly more capable 5DII and they respond with a 35FF for $12,000 body only. Okay, that's out of my system.


But on the upside if he's competing with the Sony Cine Alta, he may blow them away. He may gain all of Sony's 50 Cine Alta customers. I just thought he would go for amuch broader market that Scarlet was aimed at. I'll take a 35FF 5DII over a 2/3 Scarlet please.

f64manray
11-17-2008, 11:06 AM
5DII with Bruce Dorn. Mildly interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s97Jzhv0kSY&feature=related&fmt=18

New interview with Laforet. Very interesting. Look at the Rig they have attached to the 5DII. They are dead serious about the 5DII as a professional video production tool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s8De8ZMDRE&NR=1&fmt=18

joe 1008
11-17-2008, 12:12 PM
I'm kind of disappointed with the Scarlet announcement. All Willy Wonka and his magical camera factory needed to do was give us a 5DII with 24p and full manual controls and he would have scored big time with thousands of users. Instead he offered a 6K 35mm full frame Scarlet body only for $12,000. Many, Many people don't need or want 6 friggin K. Really, I think 35FF 2K at $3,000 would be fine. That is the benchmark and he failed (we'll see what the market saysif these are ever released). The market was only looking for a mildly more capable 5DII and they respond with a 35FF for $12,000 body only. Okay, that's out of my system.

But on the upside if he's competing with the Sony Cine Alta, he may blow them away. He may gain all of Sony's 50 Cine Alta customers. I just thought he would go for amuch broader market that Scarlet was aimed at. I'll take a 35FF 5DII over a 2/3 Scarlet please.

Agreed. Go with Canon, when the Scarlet is finalli available you already will be shooting for one or two years. Don't expect this to be Canon's last step. There will be more complete cameras but you will be able to keep the glass and other gear like the one from Redrock and you can still use the - then old - 5d mark II as your b cam. By the way, the videos you posted exist for quite a while already. You can go to the homepage of the guy who made them and watch them in much better resolution there:

http://www.stratenschulte.de/index.php?page=5dmkii

mattsand
11-17-2008, 12:31 PM
actually i don't think it would be easier or cheaper for red to build a 2k camera than a 6k one, quite the contrary. they rely heavily on post production and pretty much just dump raw data to a memory card when you press rec. a sensor that size with today's technology won't be any less than 6k and adding downscaling circuitry obviously costs more than not doing so. to sum it up red is taking the position of the cheap high end manufacturer, a market posistion much easier to compete in for a small company than the mass market (canon, nikon) or the "pro" stuff (arri, panavision).

Marz
11-17-2008, 02:33 PM
Isn't Scarlet a 3k camera with fixed lens and that will be going for under US$3000? And Epic a 5k res one?
At least it's what I heard in the interviews with Red's Ted.

mattsand
11-17-2008, 02:40 PM
no. the specs are out. look it up.

Thebes
11-17-2008, 05:21 PM
I would have been very happy with a S35 Scarlet taking Nikon lenses at 3k and recording to commonly available media. I think they got sort of pixel crazy, when really very few people have a workflow that will adapt well to 5k or 6k. I don't see how a $12,000 camera body (without even a viewfinder at that price) can be called a "D-SLR killer" either.

Still hoping the released 5DmII will do 24p ... I am supposed to be shooting a doc starting early next year and might get one and shoot it in 30p, but even for that I'd prefer 24p if I could.

mattsand
11-17-2008, 05:34 PM
the canon has a 5k sensor too. the difference is that it doesn't use all the pixels in video mode, which scarlett does and i can't really think of that as a bad thing. i think people are mistaken when they think that the 5k could be traded for a lower price or better frame rate options. that's not how it works. i'd love that too, but i'm fairly sure it's not a pixel race, just the realities of sensor design and manufacturing.

/matt

f64manray
11-18-2008, 10:08 AM
Very interesting hands on about the lowlight performance of the 5DII sensor here:

http://digitalprotalk.blogspot.com/2008/11/its-revelations-monday-8-hours-with.html

To sum it up:

"That means, dear readers, the the old 800 ISO is the new 6400 ISO!!!!"


This is really something. Red codec or not, I find it hard to believe Red has come anywhere near this unless Jannard would like to pop in here and state otherwise. Canon needs to get this FF35mm sensor into a video camera for under 5 grand, like now!!

Park Edwards
11-18-2008, 01:17 PM
and to sum it up he's talking about still mode. the same thing can be applied to the d90, but you can't change ISO in D-mode.

f64manray
11-18-2008, 02:54 PM
I'm really wondering if Canon really realizes what they have on their hands with this FF35 sensor. It negates their whole video camera line up it seems. Did the still photo division even run this past the video division because it seems like decades of progress have been made in what typically would have been small incremental painful steps by Canon resulting in this 35FF sensor like in the year 2030.

Of course, maybe Nikon forced their hand with the D90. I almost hate to reward them with my business if that's the case. Oh well........sigh.

Ray Kurzweil is right. Technology is increasing at an exponential rate. Unfortunately, it's happening as our economy is skyrocketing back to 1930 and the barbarians from a bygone age are trying to blow us up. Crazy times.

f64manray
11-18-2008, 07:21 PM
This is the most amazing stuff since Laforet's "Reverie" direct from Canon marketing in Japan:

Click on the red box with the geisha girl

http://cweb.canon.jp/camera/5dmark2/index.html

It sems like you could do a feature with this. I've heard that the FF35 sensor is essentially 2K becuase of its size. Is that true?

seejay1031
11-18-2008, 07:51 PM
2k is just a term meaning approx. 2000 pixels across the width.
I believe the reds 2k is 2048 or something like that.
The 2K digital cinema standard is for digital projectors and is 1080 by 2048
this allows scope 2.39:1 2048x858 or 1.85:1 1998x1080.
1080p 16:9 square pixels is 1920x1080.
So its close but essentially 2K?
I would say 1080P footage on a well calibrated 1080P projector would look nearly indistinguisable from native 2k footage on a well calibrated 2k projector. In a perfect world with perfectly smooth shooting ,perfect boom operators, a perfect workflow and perfect distribution pipeline either would be fine.
But does 2k have an advantage in the imperfect world.

f64manray
11-18-2008, 11:39 PM
Thanks! That was very informative.

cordvision
11-18-2008, 11:45 PM
Did you see the video on the website? Definitely worth to watch.... http://www.vincentlaforet.com/

vegasdigitalfilms
11-20-2008, 06:29 PM
Absolutely amazing. Shoots at 30fps but it looks very cinematic. Might have to get me one of these for video.

jaybirch
11-21-2008, 08:43 AM
f64 - the japanese stuff looks great... I can work around the 30fps issue... the quality, colour, DOF etc looks perfect (in fact, as I don't make films, 30fps is probably better for me)

Can't wait till 5th Dec when mine gets deleivered!!

f64manray
11-22-2008, 01:05 PM
I agree, it's amazing on many levels. The user says this video is shot in a completely dark room lit only by the residual light from the street lamp outside the window. Incredible, I say!

http://www.vimeo.com/2245181

Look how clean it is. Funny narrative under the clip. I agree with his sentiments.

Ralph Oshiro
11-22-2008, 01:33 PM
The Canon footage is indeed stunning; however, at least on the web video, there is a noticeable amount of noise and color aliasing (color banding) in the shadows and gradients.

f64manray
11-23-2008, 09:33 AM
very nice stuff here:

http://vimeo.com/2314305

Jim Klatt
11-23-2008, 11:13 AM
wow. that's the first 5d video that has blown me away.

jaybirch
11-23-2008, 11:36 AM
yea, that's the best so far... at 1080p, it still looks amazing and that probably has an extra layer of compression on it than the raw footage.

the colours, low light, sharpness, DOF (and girls) .... all beautiful

2 weeks till I get one... this is like being a kid again

taubkin
11-23-2008, 11:55 AM
It's got some weird exposures, and it's pretty darn sharpened. It's very nice, but gives me the impression that the camera was tougher to set up and use than usual. And the sharpness and 30 fps certainly doesn't hit me in the right spot.

infurno
11-23-2008, 12:25 PM
Sharpness, contrast, and saturation can all be adjusted in the camera.

jaybirch
11-23-2008, 12:51 PM
I think most people will be able to pull out the look they want... 30fps is the biggest issue, but there are work arounds... and who knows what firmware could bring.

I think there is more chances of a 24p firmware for the 5d than a stairstep/shaprness/ wobble free update for the d90.

infurno
11-23-2008, 12:55 PM
I agree. There are people up high talking to canon reps, there is a big push for 25/24 especially due to PAL problems.

Personally I don't care that much about 24p. I will deal with it. 35mm DoF, the saturation, and sensitivity is much more important to me, but I understand not everybody feels this way.

f64manray
11-23-2008, 01:16 PM
wow. that's the first 5d video that has blown me away.

Really? I thought it was excellent but not better than Reverie by Laforet.

I think I'll get the 5DII with the 24-105L Kit lens, and I might also pick up the new 24mm 1.4L II. Those lenses combined with my 50mm 1.4 and 85mm 1.8 should be a great lens kit for this camera. I'm thinking of also picking some stuff from Red Rock Micro. http://www.redrockmicro.com/redrock_dslr.html

.......might also spring for the 85mm 1.2L II.

taubkin
11-23-2008, 02:28 PM
Sharpness, contrast, and saturation can all be adjusted in the camera.

Cool, I hope we can make a D90 out of it in those terms. A D90 that shoots a signal as good as a 5D or a 5D that renders colors like the D90 would be ideal!:thumbup:

jaybirch
11-24-2008, 03:51 AM
I chatted to a sales person in the UK and it seems there hasn't been anywhere near the ordering frenzy for the 5D in Europe as there is in places that shoot NTSC. That has to be because of the lack of PAL format. As a still DSLR, it is a nice upgrade... but not an essential one, by all accounts. The pre-order frenzy seems to have come mainly from the film/video market.

I think Canon (and Nikon) didn't fully guage just how popular their cameras could be for film and video makers.

If Canon want to target Europe and see a massive increase in sales... then a 25fps firmware will have to happen. If that is possible, then a 24fps upgrade will surely be possible too.

Luckily... the idea of more money often gets changes done quicker.

I personally don't see any major upgrades for the D90 on the horizon as I think Nikon has used it as an indicator of the market, before releasing a high end video model (possibly announced on Dec 1st?). If there are no upgrades by the end of the year... my d90 hits ebay.

f64manray
11-24-2008, 12:41 PM
....and another one. Pretty good. (5DII video with Nikon and Zeiss glass - also some D90 stuff in his menu for comparison)

http://www.vimeo.com/2327058

bronxjragon
11-24-2008, 02:59 PM
....and another one. Pretty good. (5DII video with Nikon and Zeiss glass - also some D90 stuff in his menu for comparison)

http://www.vimeo.com/2327058

this video got over 14,000 hits today, crazy

f64manray
11-24-2008, 07:14 PM
That's what makes the internet so great. I wonder how many indie films get 14,000 viewers when transfered to film and released in theaters.

mrmoe
11-24-2008, 07:20 PM
LOL, true. The average "PER SCREEN AVERAGE" is about 2500-3000k. The beauty is you get to keep & control your own work. The Internet is Awesome when used right.

Rubbersquare
11-24-2008, 08:41 PM
of course, no one was paying to watch it.

still, lots of noise, and the odd look. but damn, it looks good.

bronxjragon
11-24-2008, 09:55 PM
i think its crazy that it got 19k+ hits because the search for that vimeo video is so specific, so it means mass amounts of ppl have been looking for mkII footage

NikonGuy
11-25-2008, 03:08 AM
That looks really sweet. Good clarity, colors and very nice low light performance.

I'm impressed.

Lammy
11-25-2008, 03:57 AM
I'm impressed by the footage. The Canon 5d MkII I've noticed, even with the same nikon glass, has it's own distinct look. I think the main distinguishing features are the way the colours and line details are so smooth and rich, then coupled with that 30fps motion. Is the automatic shutter speed higher or something too?

I still kind of prefer the d90's fuzzy haze to the colours... like old school film telecine transfers. I don't think it's the frame rate, as you can clearly see the difference when the videos are paused. Is the shutter and the way the chipset handles colour latitude that different?

It's kind of like, let's say film comparison: the 5D is the Kodak Vision2 film stock and the d90 is a Fuji Reala series.

Or am I being silly?

mattsand
11-25-2008, 07:31 AM
i don't know. i made a short that was shown on swedish television as part of a popular children's show. it got 2,000,000 viewers. the internet is a great distribution channel but its power comes from targeting (which this is a great example of btw) rather than scale. i'd much rather have 10,000 people see my film in theaters and 1,000,000 on tv and dvd than a billion on the internet.

/matt

mattsand
11-25-2008, 07:38 AM
the d90 has a much brighter gamma, even if you increase the contrast in the settings. with some color correction it looks more similar. all the canon clips i've seen look sharpened too, too bad it's hard to post sharpen d90 footage without amplifying the noise and dct artifacts.

i definitely agree that you can compare them as you can film stocks. the differences are of the same kind for sure. grain, contrast, saturation, and so on.

/matt

jaybirch
11-25-2008, 07:46 AM
I would argue that internet viewers are probably more important than tv viewers. They have actively found your content rather than being fed it by a tv station.... tv viewers often watch one channel because there is nothing else worth watching on the other channels... or are even too bored/tired/lazy to try and find something else.

In around 5 years time, I don't think TVs/TV stations will even exsist as we know them now... just computer driven entertainment centers with content on demand, via the internet.

This can only be a good thing, as the best content will rise to the top and the awful reality tv and poor shows will be worthless and wont get a budget from content sellers.

just my personal view.

mattsand
11-25-2008, 08:13 AM
I would argue that internet viewers are probably more important than tv viewers. They have actively found your content rather than being fed it by a tv station.
i think that's pretty much what i said and for the same reason you can't compare it to theatrical, which was my point. i didn't mean that i didn't want internet viewers, it's just that the numbers mean even less than for other forms of distribution, the strength is in who you can reach and why. tv is better for numbers. the internet is better for targeting. theaters are better for "audience immersion" for lack of a better term.

/matt

f64manray
11-25-2008, 08:25 AM
i think its crazy that it got 19k+ hits because the search for that vimeo video is so specific, so it means mass amounts of ppl have been looking for mkII footage

I think alot of that probably came from DPR. It's a pretty heavily trafficked site. That link was also posted there.

bronxjragon
11-25-2008, 08:28 AM
I think alot of that probably came from DPR. It's a pretty heavily trafficked site. That link was also posted there.

DPR as in communist korea?

jaybirch
11-25-2008, 09:03 AM
I'm not sure I really follow you then Matt, the internet can be both more popular and more content driven than tv ever has been... due to it's international reach and social networking.

anyway, i'm going off topic.

Right now, there are huge hits for Canon 5D II content as everyone is eager to see what is coming and whether it is worth buying... just like when the first d90 footage started to trickle out.

that Vincent Larofet (?) guy was smart enough to see this would happen and got around 1.5 million+ views from his footage. His blog shot through the roof with the release of that footage.... amazing really.

f64manray
11-25-2008, 09:20 AM
DPR as in communist korea?

....as in Digital Photography Review - dpreview.com.

mattsand
11-25-2008, 10:31 AM
I'm not sure I really follow you then Matt, the internet can be both more popular
when something becomes popular on the internet it becomes popular for basically the same reason that tv is popular. people aren't necessarily going to care more because they clicked a link, more likely less. if you get 19,000 views online it's not cool because it's a lot of people, it's cool because they were looking for your stuff especially. if you get 10,000 theatrical views on your indie feature that's also cool for basically the same reason. if you get 10,000,000 viewers on tv that's cool because *that's* a lot of people, a lot more than 19,000. :-)

/matt

mrmoe
11-25-2008, 11:49 AM
IMHO, I would rather talk to the right 10,000 people who care, than the wrong 1,000,000 people who don't care. Many companies today are realizing this. On the other hand, Canon is looking very promising, but until then, I am enjoying my D90.

jaybirch
11-25-2008, 12:46 PM
it needs to be placed in context though, 10million people are obvisouly not gonna watch a demo of the canon 5d II... no matter what.

A very well made short film has the chance of taking the internet by storm and getting 10,000,000 views.... it's probably more likely these days than a network picking it up.

Anyway, however you get your footage seen, it's all good.... tv,v.o.d, internet etc will all converge soon enough which will lead to more quality content.

bronxjragon
11-25-2008, 02:02 PM
A very well made short film has the chance of taking the internet by storm and getting 10,000,000 views.... it's probably more likely these days than a network picking it up.



I know you're trying to make a point, but 10,000,000 views is extremely exagerrating. The chance of any viral video or youtube video hitting that is not realistic.

mrmoe
11-25-2008, 02:30 PM
Short Film, I don't think so. Web series. Its already been done.

f64manray
11-25-2008, 02:59 PM
Posted today. This is what it will be like to take yours out of the box. They are now shipping:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3D1pptWIwbo&fmt=18

He shows you how to set it up to record without reading the manual.

mattsand
11-25-2008, 03:47 PM
the more tv like the internet becomes the more tv like its audience behaves too. tv is a fantastic mass medium and i maintain the position that the difference is that the internet excels in finding the people who "care", if you will, rather than huge numbers. i'm pretty sure it's not much easier to reach 10,000,000 viewers online than on tv, in fact i think it's much harder. and again, who could ever care more than somebody who goes to see an art house indie in the theater. why did you let that part of the discussion go?

/matt

jaybirch
11-25-2008, 04:14 PM
Because there is nothing to debate at all there.... if you are filmaker, you want to see your films playing on the big screen in front of film entusiasts.

This is prehaps where the difference lies between tv and the net though. From a film makers stance.... Say you post a nice teaser on a website and that becomes more popular through various links, blogs and social networks... maybe you generate a buzz of a million people.... then if the film is shown in their local area, that could create more seats being sold in theatres, which in turn will make your film more sucessful and noticed within the film industry. That's definatly more likely than getting a tv station to show a teaser for an indie movie.

It seems to be working for the music industry (good artists are being found on myspace etc getting a huge fanbase and then getting big contracts) this most be happening, to an extent, in all creative industries.

Also, I dont think the internet will become more tv like.... it has to be the other way around, by which, I mean searchable content, that plays when you want it.... not just playing show after show when the TV company decides.... If you wanna watch the latest simpsons... you will just stream it whenever you are ready.. not at 6pm on a saturday.

This is the way it will go (I speak with many people that are in the future trends business for the internet and how it will progress)..... and it is a great step. The poor productions will start dropping ratings quickly and we would start seeing more content that people actually wanna see.

mattsand
11-25-2008, 04:47 PM
Because there is nothing to debate at all there...
obviously there is since a few people expressed a different opinion as well as judged both theatrical views and internet views on the sheer numbers, a mistake in my opinion. both are more interesting mediums than tv if you want to reach an intended audience, yet tv has more viewers, go figure.


I speak with many people that are in the future trends business for the internet and how it will progress
you haven't spoken to me. while i'm not that much into that stuff anymore i've actually written several books about internet culture and technology and i'm still pretty interested in keeping up to date on the layman's level. i'm not bragging, just wanted to mention it so you don't try to impress me again. :-)

seriously, people have been talking about interactive tv and the superiority of the internet paradigm since 1991 when i started researching online media, and while tv has certainly become more interactive the web, especially the successfull mass market stuff, has *definitely* become more tv like and is viewed in a more tv like way. video on demand and being able to watch simpsons in the middle of the night may seem like it's closer to the internet, but if you think about it that's not necessarily the case. it's just technology enabling something that we've wanted since vhs, and when vhs came that probably enabled an even older need. the internet on the other hand, marks a paradigm shift, and i'm not trying to sound like negroponte circa 1995... ;-)

/matt

mrmoe
11-25-2008, 05:07 PM
Music Industry, already shut out Indie Music, The Film industry has shut out Indie Films. Indie Productions (Music, Film, TV) no longer survive through the major distribution system. Can we all agree that we are at a crossroads and that it is time to build a new business model?

=]

f64manray
11-25-2008, 09:28 PM
Also, I dont think the internet will become more tv like.... it has to be the other way around, by which, I mean searchable content, that plays when you want it.... not just playing show after show when the TV company decides.... If you wanna watch the latest simpsons... you will just stream it whenever you are ready.. not at 6pm on a saturday.

.

I think that's basically already here. It's called Tivo. I've got such a back log on my HD recorder, the networks no longer dictate when I watch anything. I stream it off Tivo at my convenience. I'm thinking this has got to destroy the medium of TV at some point. What advertiser would pay to place ads in a program that can be skipped by the viewer with the 30 second skip function.

Networks are already discussing turning more prime time over to affiliates. They're at the breaking point as well as CD sales are dropping off the cliff in the music industry.

The way people are consuming media is changing. For that matter, the whole country is going to change how it does alot of things this year. Enjoy this Thanksgiving, the USA could be a very different place by next Thanksgiving.

f64manray
11-26-2008, 07:55 AM
Woohoo, new stuff from Laforet.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/11/26/7-days-7-shoots-eos-5d-mkii/

Rubbersquare
11-26-2008, 08:54 AM
Woohoo, new stuff from Laforet.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/11/26/7-days-7-shoots-eos-5d-mkii/


WOW!
i am constantly amazed at some of the stuff that comes out of this camera.

jaybirch
11-26-2008, 09:27 AM
i'm not bragging, just wanted to mention it so you don't try to impress me again.


I couldn't care less about impressing you :-)

mattsand
11-26-2008, 10:26 AM
it feels good to have settled that one. :-)

bronxjragon
11-26-2008, 10:49 AM
haha, internet beef

ESTEBEVERDE
11-26-2008, 10:58 AM
5DII with Bruce Dorn. Mildly interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s97Jzhv0kSY&feature=related&fmt=18

New interview with Laforet. Very interesting. Look at the Rig they have attached to the 5DII. They are dead serious about the 5DII as a professional video production tool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0s8De8ZMDRE&NR=1&fmt=18

Vincent is a brilliant still photographer and is surely to develop into an equally impressive videographer.

Hopefully he spends some time here trading tips so his learning curve is greatly reduced.

It tickles me to see him in such an early state of his "Film" development....:beer:

Northainan
11-27-2008, 05:21 AM
I came across this camera because I shoot sports photography with the Nikon D2X and I want to shoot full frame with 21megapixels.The video capabilities came as a surprise. I shot with Canon for 10 years and I still have my EOF lenses. Anyway, the 30fps does not bother me,because the projects I want to do will be going straight to DVD anyway. The 5D footage looks like film to me and I would have not known it was 30fp if it was not mentioned. Just think this is a first generation camera too,the second genration camera may be a monster. When I saw the ads of this camera I knew you guys woulld be talking about it. lol

f64manray
12-03-2008, 06:14 PM
Some very nice Lynx footage here:

http://www.vimeo.com/2418304


This is tackling some very tough exposure problems with the snow, and I think it handled rather well. Some really beautiful work.

f64manray
12-05-2008, 09:36 AM
This is a must have for your 5DII: Remote controlled helicopter mount. Very cool, but he's nuts.

http://aerialpan.blogspot.com/