HMC150 vs. Canon XH-A1 vs. ?

[sindrejibb]

Hi!

I make skimovies and I feel ready to step up to the semi-pro/pro-segment. But I have no experience with these pro-cameras, so I ask here.

It can't be too expensive, so I've seen on the Canon XH-A1 and the Panasonic HMC150. Or, I've had a look on more cameras but I think these are getting good comments and they are pretty cheap to be pro-cameras. But which of these? Or do you have a completely other suggestion?

As I make skimovies, I will use this out in the snow, in the terrain. I don't care much about how it look, but it should be pretty easy to handle and what is most important to me is IMAGE QUALITY of course.

[shrigg]

Of course you're going to get pretty pro-Panasonic opinions around here. Having said that:

The HMC150 is great if you are ready to deal with tapeless. Can your computer/NLE edit AVCHD? Tapeless is more reliable in the cold. It's a much newer camera and has a great picture.

The XH-A1 does have some advantages for ski shooting, mainly the excellent lens which is quite a bit longer than the HMC150's. It delivers a great picture too and is arguably sharper than the HMC150. It shoots HDV, which some say is on the way out. But the truth is its easier to edit at the moment on "regular" computers

[sindrejibb]

Hmm, I think my computer can edit AVCHD. I've got 4 GB ram and a Q6600 (quadcore) processor. It should handle it, shouldn't it? And I use Adobe Premiere Pro.

I think it is pretty hard to decide
When you ask if I'm ready to deal with tapeless. Should that be any problem? Isn't that easier than tape? I think tape is a pretty stupid thing, you have to capture in realtime etc. Why should an SD card be a concern?

[Justyn]

There's lots of things to consider going tapeless. First is archival, since you don't have any tape. You'll have to figure out how and what you are going to archive since you won't have the original camera tape. Also, until your NLE goes native.. then you'll probably have to transcode and convert the footage somehow and that takes time, and space. It'll probably be longer than real time which isn't great. I like the speed of P2 and the AVCHD stuff is no where as immediate or as easy to work with in post.


I personally think that one of your biggest concerns in shoping ski vids would be the cameras ability to handle extremes in terms of exposure, contrast and such. Going from bright snow and sky to dark and shady areas. Your latitude should be something that you look into. ALSO.. I think that you want to have CCD and not CMOS for that stuff. You might also want to look into the SD9 camera if you go with the 150. Great compliment camera for mounting onto a person and for tight small quarters.



WHen going to tapeless HD there's a lot to consider.. but more than likely you won't regret it. In about 2 months, I will have had my HVX for 3 years already and have shot about 1900 hours of footage through the camera.. Simply a great camera and it's made shooting a lot more fun.

[Evro]

As far as archiving goes we've opted for 1TB Seagate external USB drives and have been using them for a bout 6 months now - we can fit around 13 full day weddings (including final renders & DVD images) on each drive and leave about 100GB free space for bi-monthly scandisk operations - so far so good :)

[sindrejibb]

Can't I just archieve it on a harddisk?

And what do you mean with "until your NLE goes native"?

I think it sounds much more practical to have the videofiles on a SD-card. But I'm also used to tape, so it does really not matter. I just want the best video quality I can get!

[caseyhayward]

The cool thing to me about the HMC-150 vs. panasonic's P2 offerings is that SD card prices are getting to the point where you can shoot cards like tape. You don't have to constantly offload your video to reuse the cards, rather the cards themselves can now be your archive.

To me that was the biggest problem going tapeless, the time factor involved in offloading/archiving cards. But shooting inexpensive SD cards presents a whole new workflow.


BTW what they mean by "until your NLE goes native" is that some NLEs have to transcode AVC footage to another codec (e.g. DVC pro HD, Pro Res, etc.) prior to editing. I don't know which NLE you use. I use Final Cut and this is a big hassle right now. I have replaced realtime tape capture with slow as molasses USB 2.0 imports/transcodes. Ugh, this is what they mean when they say "are you ready to go tapeless?" It's not always the carefree process companies make it out to be.

[Mike Harvey]

Can't I just archieve it on a harddisk?

Hard drives are mechanical, so they WILL fail eventually. Last thing I want is to have all my footage on a drive or drive array and have it tank after I've erased the SD card... which with my luck would happen at the worst possible time (like last night when my computer crashed as I was working on this this promo for a client needing it this afternoon). Once my HMC arrives (today... yippee!), I'm going to get a Blu-Ray Disk burner and back up everything to BR disks. Media right now isn't much more than the high end DV tape I use, and that's sure to drop eventually. Plus I can get several hours worth of raw footage on a single disk.

As far as your NLE going native, Premiere CS4 is now shipping and edits native AVCHD (previous versions don't). But I guess it's a bear to edit with if you don't have a beefy machine. My specs are similar to yours... Q6600 and 8 gig of RAM... so when CS4 arrives next week, I can let you know how it works if you want.

[sindrejibb]

Ok, thanks! I use Premiere Pro CS3 now, but I'll probably get CS4 ASAP.
So, I think recording to SD cards will be effective, and I think it will be a plus for me.

So, which camera gives you the best colors, quality etc.? That's what's important to me.

[caseyhayward]

"So, which camera gives you the best colors, quality etc.? That's what's important to me."


you're on your own on this one. No one can decide which camera looks best to you. I would choose based on format, workflow and then take a look at a camera dealer or expo to see which looks I like better. To be honest I think all of these cameras in this price range look roughly the same. I'd choose the one that makes my life easier.

[Mike Harvey]

you're on your own on this one. No one can decide which camera looks best to you. I would choose based on format, workflow and then take a look at a camera dealer or expo to see which looks I like better. To be honest I think all of these cameras in this price range look roughly the same. I'd choose the one that makes my life easier.

For the most part I agree. Also, I know the HMC is extremely tweakable, and I've read the A1 is as well, so the picture straight out of the box on both can be adjusted to your taste.

Honestly, you're not really going wrong with either camera. My bias is to the HMC because of the appeal of going tapeless, AVCHD (knowing the accompanying headaches that come with it), range of tweaks, and the general similarities to the DVX which I currently own. But I don't shoot ski videos, so my needs and wants are going to be different than yours.

Really, rent the A1 if you can for a weekend and play with it. Then rent the HMC if you can and play with it for a weekend. That really is the only way you'll be able to make the best choice.

[BobDiaz]

Hard drives are mechanical, so they WILL fail eventually. Last thing I want is to have all my footage on a drive or drive array and have it tank after I've erased the SD card... which with my luck would happen at the worst possible time (like last night when my computer crashed as I was working on this this promo for a client needing it this afternoon). Once my HMC arrives (today... yippee!), I'm going to get a Blu-Ray Disk burner and back up everything to BR disks. Media right now isn't much more than the high end DV tape I use, and that's sure to drop eventually. Plus I can get several hours worth of raw footage on a single disk.

As far as your NLE going native, Premiere CS4 is now shipping and edits native AVCHD (previous versions don't). But I guess it's a bear to edit with if you don't have a beefy machine. My specs are similar to yours... Q6600 and 8 gig of RAM... so when CS4 arrives next week, I can let you know how it works if you want.


It would be FOOLISH for anyone to put their critical video files on just one hard drive. While the chances of a failure at that point in time are small, but sooner or later, it will happen. Anyone putting the files onto a hard drive should make a second copy onto a second hard drive, just to be safe. Given that USB and Firewire drives aren't that expensive, it's just good insurance.


Also, some may want to consider using the 8.5 GB Double Layer DVDs to store data from their 8GB SDHC cards. Depending on the brand and quantity purchased in the box, the cost is around $1 to $4 per disk. Like hard drives, I would strongly suggest making a second copy on a second DVD disk.


Bob Diaz

[sindrejibb]

Yes, I would of course have a backup. But that is no problem, I have external harddrives, and can buy more! So I don't think SD cards should be any problem, only easier.

[MovieSwede]

I think this is more a workflow descision then camera descision.

If you want solid state AVC or TapeBased HDV.

Both have pros and cons.

[shrigg]

Yes, it's not a matter of IF a hard drive will fail but WHEN it will fail. I suggest triple-copy backup: two copies of the AVCHD files to DVD-R's (different brands or at least different lot #'s of media) in addition to a hard drive copy.

Read this article and you too will become a hard drive doubter:

http://www.larryjordan.biz/articles/lj_hard_disk_warning.html

[Evro]

Having been an IT professional in my previous career I can tell you that everything has inherent problems & weaknesses however the most economical and easiest to access I think is the HDD. Today hard drives are made to be ultra reliable otherwise they would not sell hem with 5, 10 & 12 year warranties (Seagate) there is one task you need to perform if you choose hard drives for permanent storage and that data refreshing at regular intervals. I just can't put my faith in DVD-R when they have not been around long enough to be a proven archival media and everyone knows once a DVD fails there's nothing you can do about it, at least with an HDD you can try different methods of rescue depending on the symptom.

I guess it depends on your work load. If you are only shooting a couple of hours of footage a month, then archiving to double sets of DVD or BluRay media is not such a big deal however, for those that are producing around 200GB of data a week, burning to optical media becomes somewhat impractical.

The safest and most proven method of data backup in my experience is tape based via SDLT, LTO, AIT technologies (corporate data centres still use magnetic tape to backup their data!!) however as these methods are very co$t prohibitive for the average studio, the next best thing is Hard Disk Drives however HDDs being mechanical devices need regular maintenance to ensure data integrity and that means the data needs to be moved around (refreshed).

Have no fear of HDDs and make sure you buy tried & tested brands that have a reputation for reliability like Seagate, forget those cheap Samsung drives.

[shrigg]

Well I'm not normally one to forecast doom and gloom but I thought the Larry Jordan article was an interesting read. It's good to educate people about data rotation which I take to mean simply spinning up the hard drive say once a year or so. I too have a hard time trusting DVD-r's excusively, hence the triple copy solution. DLT is awesome but highly cost prohibitive to most of us small guys (remember the OP).

[BobDiaz]

We are getting a bit off topic here, but because this is important, I'll cover it...

With data, it's important to NEVER put all your eggs into one basket. In this case, don't trust one single storage solution. It is far better and safer to have a second or better yet, a third copy of critical data.

Also, the third copy should be stored at a different location. Buildings burn down, encounter a flood, or some other thing that could wipe out your data.

Hard drives do need to be scanned every 6 months to 1 year.

Also, with hard drives and optical media, makes sure your second copy and third copy are different brands. That way should there be some sort of defect in the product, only one copy is lost.

For those interested, I addressed this in my Podcast,
Long-term Video File Storage (http://web.mac.com/bobdiaz/Site/Podcast/Entries/2008/4/11_Long-term_Video_File_Storage.html)

Friday, April 11, 2008.



Bob Diaz

[jeff9329]

Hi!

I make skimovies and I feel ready to step up to the semi-pro/pro-segment. But I have no experience with these pro-cameras, so I ask here.

It can't be too expensive, so I've seen on the Canon XH-A1 and the Panasonic HMC150. Or, I've had a look on more cameras but I think these are getting good comments and they are pretty cheap to be pro-cameras. But which of these? Or do you have a completely other suggestion?

As I make skimovies, I will use this out in the snow, in the terrain. I don't care much about how it look, but it should be pretty easy to handle and what is most important to me is IMAGE QUALITY of course.

I would base your decision on the following:


Which camera can take the cold better? I have both but neither has been exposed to freezing temperatures. Neither will do great without a warm battery.
Which camera is toughest? I would say they are about the same with extra points to the HMC150 for being tapeless. A little powder and moisture in a tape mechanism and you are done.
For me, all types of skiing are long distance shots. The A1 has the longer lens for better distant shots.
Which camera can handle bright snow shots better? I don't know since I just got the HMC150.
My experience has been very good shooting in bright snow conditions. You will need a CP and ND filters. HD cameras love light, and they really get it with snow. I doubt anyone knows which camera will produce better image quality in skiing conditions as the HMC150 was just released.

You have a tough call. Both are great cameras, with subtle differences.

[Justyn]

Find a dealer that has them all in stock and take a trip to see them. Hold them.. play around with them.. shoot s alittle something and see if they'll let you take the footage home and check it out first. I think that's the best thing you can do... or find a couple of people locally who have them and ask to tag along and check it out..


There's so many factors to a camera and you might find something unique about one that steals it for ya..


Also don't forget the other accessories that you'll need. A decent shotgun mike, filters, extra batteries... bag and all of that. This can add up to be quite a bit extra and should be considered as well.

[Brady]

Also, if you do any slomo stuff, the HMC150 will shoot 60p (@720).

[shrigg]

So in other words it will play back perfectly at 40% slow motion with no post processing necessary (just drop it into a 720/24p timeline)

[CreativeHD]

I have visited this forum thanks to Mike Curtis' (hd4indies) link 3 years ago... and greatly appreciate what I have garnered from this community.

I finally registered to offer my 2 cents here. All suggestions so far sound excellent, and I just wanted to add a few (long winded) thoughts.

Tapeless would be a great way to go, as you would eliminate the dreaded head-clog and transport problems encountered often when your camera goes through dramatic heat cycles... you know when your lens starts to fog... imagine what your tape system is going through.

I like what I see about the 150 too, I have this camera on the top of my wish list now. The 170 would a be great step up, but the P2 costs and workflow are daunting. 720P is a great format, and ability to shoot 60 frames for slo-mo would be a big bonus.

The 20x lens of the Canon is the best selling point of the A1 option. Of course the price is good too.

Speaking of HDV, I bought my Sony Z1u 40 months ago, and like many things about it, but it will never have the great "Panny" look. Perhaps the best thing about it though is the transflective LCD display, which many of the Sony's have. This thing is great to view especially in bright sun. No other LCD comes close in terms of brightness and usablity, I have shot a lot of skiing footage, much of it while skiing myself, and the ability to quickly frame and adjust with confidence is vital to me. After decades of capturing similar scenes on 16mm, BetaCam... I am spoiled now, and can't imagine not having this aid.

Since I don't think Sony has a camera of near similar video quality in this price range yet I may be throwing a wrench into the works here, sorry. The Z7 has potential, but costs what the 170 does, plus the solid-state recorder is attached over the battery on the camera-back. This doesn't seem secure or strong enough for "crash-cam" like shooting, where a skiing accident is always possible.

But if you are not moving while shooting, tripod or not, the 150 viewfinder or maybe a HoodMan type shade on the LCD should be more than adequate. Obviously focus is critical in HD, and exposure is key to good looking ski footage. Very easy to overexpose with white background everywhere. Underexposure looks very flat, 2 dimensional, especially wide shots.

I have a Canon 5d mark 2 on order, and this might be a possibility for you too, totally different animal though. But ability to use variety of great lenses, have killer image sensor... and shoot 12 minutes to 4Gb file on CF card... for $3500 with 24-105 image stabilizing lens (true 35mm focal length lenses!) all appeal to me. This camera should have more latitude given it's still heritage. I know the CMOS issues could rule out this option for many, and having only 30p choice is limiting also. Too early to honestly guage this IMO until community can get hands on production models and get real world experience. But I am glad that these types of new offerings, like RED products, drive technology to develop better cameras for all of us.

Sounds like each option has it's plusses and minusses. As others pointed out earlier, get what is easy for you to work with, remember to budget for necessary accessories, try before you buy. I doubt we will ever be offered the "perfect" package, a camera that exactly suits our purposes.

One last thought, no matter which camera, I would definitely review my footage to make a "generous selects" sequence, and then consolidate a copy to have one of my main back-ups be just for the keepers. This would be a much smaller amount of data and simplify the workload and hdd space needs.

Good luck with all of your endeavors, it's the best feeling to view your own dynamic footage, especially on todays HD screens!

[jeff9329]

1. Tapeless would be a great way to go, as you would eliminate the dreaded head-clog and transport problems encountered often when your camera goes through dramatic heat cycles... you know when your lens starts to fog... imagine what your tape system is going through.

2. The 20x lens of the Canon is the best selling point of the A1 option. Of course the price is good too.

3. Perhaps the best thing about it though is the transflective LCD display,...

4. But if you are not moving while shooting, tripod or not, the 150 viewfinder or maybe a HoodMan type shade on the LCD should be more than adequate.

5. I have a Canon 5d mark 2 on order, and this might be a possibility for you too, totally different animal though.

1. Totally agree

2. Agree

3. Neither the A1 or HMC150 have that. Neither ones LCD are usefull in really strong light.

4. The cup style viewfinder on the HMC150 is better than the A1 viewfinder setup.

5. I think this may be a really good possibility. You would need a tripod for most all shots, but you still need one for the A1 & HMC150 for many shots too. One downside is the cost; body $2,700, 17-40 wide lens $700, 70-200ISF4 tele lens $1,600=$5,000 +bag+batteries+external mic+tripod, etc. You could almost get an EX-1 for that.

[CreativeHD]

Jeff, thanks for feedback.

My brother has an EX-1, and that would be a nice top-end choice. Seems like the CMOS issues aren't very big for most shooting styles as I see it.

I guess since we're all trying to hit a moving target, I have to admit my preference is to keep purchases "affordable" and not live on the bleeding edge! You could have a 150 and a Canon 5D Mk2 with one lens for about what the EX-1 costs. Plus media for EX-1, like P2 is always going to be more than CF and SD cards.

To me the 150 seems like the best solution here because of price point, low media costs, and very little sacrifice in image quality for 720P footage. I would live with the LCD as it seems like a fair trade-off to get all of the positives the HMC150 camera offers! Looks like you're getting a true progressive scan CCD camera with a codec and features that is a few years ahead of the HDV offerings.

I know I made a big deal out of Sony's LCD, I mostly wanted to "put it on the table" because of it's unique benefits, but in reality, I think since Sony has no comparable cameras to the 150, I would only ante up for a Sony if my shooting style centered around relying on their bright LCDs... lots of shooting from the hip... putting the camera into motion tracking action... but with practice shooting under these conditions with a 150 I know my confidence would increase with experience.

[KeithAndrews.TV]

I Think we've all forgotten about one key feature of the HMC150 that could benefit sindrejibb while shooting in high contrast environments, and that is the DRS function of the camera. I've had the camera for several weeks now, and typically use it to shoot real estate videos. In these challenging situations I have to contend with bright windows, dark corners and everything in between and I am very satisfied with the results. This feature would certainly help significantly when shooting in an environment with snow and bright sun, and where you have no control over the lighting situation.

[Evro]

Hey Digitalcapturegroop, how is the flare on blown highlights, do you see that serious purple fringing like on the old DVX or is it more like the Canon A1's sharp white edges?

[KeithAndrews.TV]

I know we are getting a little off topic here, so I completely understand if this post gets moved. The most noticable effect while using DRS actually has nothing to do with the lens, but more to do with the way the hardware is analyzing the surrounding pixels. In extreme cases where you have an object in the frame that is extremely blown out, you can actually see a halo that surrounds the object and bleeds out into the surrounding pixels. I haven't actually seen any purple fringing, or white edges from using the camera.

The closest thing I can think of to describe the effect is if you are familiar with Premiere's Shadow/Highlight filter? If you overcorrect for the highlights using the filter, you end up with a halo around the brightest objects in the frame.

I have grabbed a couple of screen caps from a Video Tour of a home that I shot a couple of weeks ago where I was really able to see the effects of DRS. Excuse the image quality, these were taken from an .FLV file since I am at work right now. In most cases, like when I am shooting interiors with windows (Images 2-3), you do not see this effect, however, when I am shooting something that is extremely high contrast (Images 4-5) you can really see the effects of DRS. Notice the position of the sun in Images 4 and 5, and of course the color of the railing does not help.

In my opinion this isn't a good thing and I am sure people will fuss about the negative effects that this could have on their images. Fortunately my clientel and I can live with this for the time being considering the product I am producing and the method of delivery I am using. Hopefully Panasonic will be able to fix this, or at least fine tune the effects with a firmware update in the near future.

http://www.mainevideotours.com/images/drsimage1.png

http://www.mainevideotours.com/images/drsimage2.png

http://www.mainevideotours.com/images/drsimage3.png

http://www.mainevideotours.com/images/drsimage4.png

http://www.mainevideotours.com/images/drsimage5.png

[ilauzirika]

Are those taken with hmc150. wow great images.

[KeithAndrews.TV]

Thank you for the kind comment. Yeah this was one of the first video projects I worked on with the HMC150. I forgot to mention that my DRS setting was set to 3 when I captured the above images. Obviously the halo effect would be more diminished if I had used a tamer setting of the DRS function.

[ilauzirika]

Do you find the noise with the drs on acceptable?

[KeithAndrews.TV]

The noise associated with using the DRS function is really only apparent in the shadow areas of the frame. It is not terrible when you are moving the camera, as in a pan, but you will definitely notice some when the camera is stationary. Again, maybe something Panasonic will improve with a firmware update.

[BobDiaz]

I know we are getting a little off topic here, so I completely understand if this post gets moved. The most noticable effect while using DRS actually has nothing to do with the lens, but more to do with the way the hardware is analyzing the surrounding pixels. In extreme cases where you have an object in the frame that is extremely blown out, you can actually see a halo that surrounds the object and bleeds out into the surrounding pixels. I haven't actually seen any purple fringing, or white edges from using the camera.

The closest thing I can think of to describe the effect is if you are familiar with Premiere's Shadow/Highlight filter? If you overcorrect for the highlights using the filter, you end up with a halo around the brightest objects in the frame.

I have grabbed a couple of screen caps from a Video Tour of a home that I shot a couple of weeks ago where I was really able to see the effects of DRS. Excuse the image quality, these were taken from an .FLV file since I am at work right now. In most cases, like when I am shooting interiors with windows (Images 2-3), you do not see this effect, however, when I am shooting something that is extremely high contrast (Images 4-5) you can really see the effects of DRS. Notice the position of the sun in Images 4 and 5, and of course the color of the railing does not help.

In my opinion this isn't a good thing and I am sure people will fuss about the negative effects that this could have on their images. Fortunately my clientel and I can live with this for the time being considering the product I am producing and the method of delivery I am using. Hopefully Panasonic will be able to fix this, or at least fine tune the effects with a firmware update in the near future.

(some photos deleted)

http://www.mainevideotours.com/images/drsimage5.png


I can see how DRS is going to do what it is doing... The bright edge needs to be lowered or it will wash out; however the grass near the edge also is lowered in value in order to keep the relative difference in brightness close. The grass farther away from the bright edge is impacted less by DRS.

It would be interesting to see how this shot would look at different settings: None, Minimum DRS, Mid-DRS, amd Maximum DRS.


Bob Diaz

[KeithAndrews.TV]

Yeah, now that I have seen what DRS set to 3 will do to the image, it would be advantageous to play around with the function and see if I can still achieve the greater latitude with the image, without affecting the surrounding pixels as much.

I will have to setup some tests and report back on my findings. Seems there are two factors one needs to consider when using DRS: How the function will affect the highlights, and how much noise will be introduced into the shadows.

[sindrejibb]

Hmm, this is really hard.

What is the difference between 720p and 1080p? Most of my shootings are going to be watched on computers (on the internet), and not TV's.

And I hear a lot crap about AVCHD, IS it a good format? Many people says it is a consumer-format etc. and has nothing to do in a pro-camera.

[BobDiaz]

Hmm, this is really hard.

What is the difference between 720p and 1080p? Most of my shootings are going to be watched on computers (on the internet), and not TV's.

And I hear a lot crap about AVCHD, IS it a good format? Many people says it is a consumer-format etc. and has nothing to do in a pro-camera.

If the final output is going to be a 320x240 video for the internet, you are better off to get a good SD camera to shoot the video. Shooting 720p (1280x720) or 1080p (1920x1080) and producing a 320x240 video is a bit like using a shotgun to kill a fly; it works, but is overkill. Good SD video cameras are going to be cheaper.


Some common differences between the Consumer AVCHD cameras and the Professional AVCHD cameras are:

* Professional Cameras have a larger image sensor chip size
* Professional Cameras use 3 chips (a few consumer cameras have 3 chips, but most use just 1)
* Professional Cameras use a higher bit rate for recording than consumer cameras
* Professional Cameras cost more, but have more features and are build better than consumer cameras


I can safely say that the image quality of the Panasonic HMC-150 is VERY Good; colors are rich, the image has good dynamic range, the contrast looks right, the image is clean (free of noise), ... There are others here on the forum that will back up what I've just said here.

No camera is perfect and the HMC-150 is not as sharp as the Canon A1. However, on the other hand, the A1 does not do as well in low light as the HMC-150. Each person has to decide what is more important to them.

Anyone who would say that AVCHD is not a professional format, is likely not to have taken the time to look closely at the images coming from the HMC-150.


Bob Diaz

[sindrejibb]

Well, do you mean my old Pansonic NV-GS500 will do the same job for internet-videos?
I've seen HD videos on the internet and I think they look way better.

For example:
Look at my video made with Panasonic NV-GS500: http://vimeo.com/1932210
and
this video mostly filmed in HD: http://vimeo.com/1851779

The last one looks way better, right?

[BobDiaz]

Please all me to add a bit to what I said to clear up several things...

In terms of resolution, there is only a slight difference in sharpness between converting an HD 1280x720 image to 320x240 compared to a SD 720x480 image to 320x240. This assumes that both the HD and the SD images are sharp before conversion.

The images you point to are about 506x288 pixels. The different in sharpness should stand out a bit more; however, because these are two different videos, I can't be 100% sure by how much.

In terms of color, contrast, dynamic range, image noise, ..., we have to assume that both image sensors are about the same; like 1/3" CCD vs. 1/3" CCD and current technology. (My Panasonic D-5000 with a single 1/2" CCD is over 20 years old and can't produce as good a dynamic range as current 1/3" CCD video cameras.)

The CCD on the Panasonic NV-GS500 is 1/4.7" CCD (1.07 Megapixels) x 3. The SD video camera, the Panasonic DVX-100b has a 1/3" CCD x 3. In general, I've noticed that the larger CCDs seem to produce better images. In addition to better low light performance, the larger image sensors seem to produce better looking images.

Cameras vary, so assuming things are more or less equal the images are going to be close. However, this is not an absolute, compare a small CCD to a larger CCD or a single chip to a 3 chip, and there are going to be more differences. Even when things should be close, there are differences. The Canon A1 HD video camera (1/3" CCD x 3) seems to produce a less rich image than the Panasonic HMC-150 (1/3" CCD x 3).


I hope this help clear things up.


Bob Diaz

[13th Judas]

Well, do you mean my old Pansonic NV-GS500 will do the same job for internet-videos?
I've seen HD videos on the internet and I think they look way better.

For example:
Look at my video made with Panasonic NV-GS500: http://vimeo.com/1932210
and
this video mostly filmed in HD: http://vimeo.com/1851779

The last one looks way better, right?

WOW. i didn't realize that the gs500 creates that kind of wonderful images.

[Hidef1080]

I can safely say that the image quality of the Panasonic HMC-150 is VERY Good; colors are rich, the image has good dynamic range, the contrast looks right, the image is clean (free of noise), ... There are others here on the forum that will back up what I've just said here.

Bob Diaz

I am Hidef1080 and I approve this message.:thumbup:

[sindrejibb]

I think I would choose HMC-150. It can record 60 fps in 720p. What is the difference between shooting in 720 and 1080? I will probably not need more than 720, but I think like.. It's stupid to use 720 when I have the ability to shoot 1080!
So what's the differences?

[dory_breaux]

HMC. No tape, more reliable in sub-freezing temps, can get better slow motion... its a Panasonic.

[sindrejibb]

Bump! I'd like even more comments about this.

If I can get a slightly used XH-A1 for 2/3 the price, is that a better deal?

[sindrejibb]

Another thing, I know the HMC-151 can capture 50p, so that I can make a nice slowmo.
This may be a big point in skimovies. Can I make good slowmo's with the XH-A1? Or will the 50p setting on the HMC be far superior?

[ullanta]

I think I would choose HMC-150. It can record 60 fps in 720p. What is the difference between shooting in 720 and 1080? I will probably not need more than 720, but I think like.. It's stupid to use 720 when I have the ability to shoot 1080!
So what's the differences?



http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1436846&postcount=26

[jeff9329]

If I can get a slightly used XH-A1 for 2/3 the price, is that a better deal?


I bet you can get a fair deal on a XH-A1 used since they have released the newly updated XH-A1s.

66% off new price would be around $2,244. That would leave a lot of money for other essentials. Even if the HMC-150 is better, can you afford it?

Im starting to think that for any adverse conditions, the HMC-150 will be a lot tougher. I recently got caught in blowing sand when some high speed vehicles passed my location on the beach. It might have put a hurt on a tape based camera. I blew all the sand off the HMC-150 and it was fine.

In very bright locations, set the knee to low in 720 mode or the DRS to 3 in 1080 mode and you will be set to avoid clipping highlights. You will also have to adjust the master pedestal and other settings. When you get the HMC-150 adjusted right, it will make amazing video.

[sindrejibb]

Now I know that I will not have the Canon XH-A1. The 50p framerate on the HMC-151 is very important for my use and I would prefer tapeless out in the cold.

But now I've got a new problem. I can get a used HVX-200 (the old version) with 4 batteries, 2x 8GB P2-cards and 2 chargers for 2/3 the price of one new HMC-151. Do this sound like a good deal?

Here's the link (in norwegian, but you can look at the pictures): http://www.norskfilmforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,6807.0.html

[jeff9329]

Now I know that I will not have the Canon XH-A1. The 50p framerate on the HMC-151 is very important for my use and I would prefer tapeless out in the cold.

But now I've got a new problem. I can get a used HVX-200 (the old version) with 4 batteries, 2x 8GB P2-cards and 2 chargers for 2/3 the price of one new HMC-151. Do this sound like a good deal?

Here's the link (in norwegian, but you can look at the pictures): http://www.norskfilmforum.com/forum/index.php/topic,6807.0.html


That kind of deal will make you have to really think about it.

Here is Barrys comparison of the 200 & 200a:

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/hvx200a/

[sindrejibb]

Yes, I AM really thinking about it ;)

This is so hard.. I will not have the 200a anyway. If I don't get a killer deal on a used one. But basically it is the HMC-151 vs the old HVX-200...

[Justyn]

brother, you are dealing with my exact dilemma and decision making that I was going through. I was torn between a used HVX or the 150. I already own an HVX so there's something going for that. The big thing that held me off on the 150 for a while was the workflow.. but then when I got the option to just capture all the footage on the fly with the intensity card on the Mac Pro and convert it to DVCPRO.. That was all I needed.


I went for the 150 as I love getting a new camera and there's a lot more to consider besides the cost of the camera. I will have enough SD cards to shoot 9 hours straight without offloading and I think that the images produced between both will be comperable and in someways the 150 is a cleaner image than the 200...


I'll do a posting and compare the two. This week I'm going to shoot with the 200a, 200, 150 and if i could find a 170.. shoot I'd get that in there too.

[drdimento]

Yes, I AM really thinking about it ;)

This is so hard.. I will not have the 200a anyway. If I don't get a killer deal on a used one. But basically it is the HMC-151 vs the old HVX-200...

"sindrejibb" for whatever it's worth we had the tapeless route with the HVX200 and 200A and for our Broadcast, Wedding, and Event the camera turned out to be far too demanding on light as compared to the XHA1. That is, the XHA1 is right there with the DVX100B which we absolutely loved and put about 3000 hours on four of them and about 2000 hours on our four HVX's (2+2) but in the long haul when thinking of a "next step" HD . . for us it boiled down to:


Ease in use
Easy and reliable archiving
NLE loved it
Readily accepted by our broadcast clients
Readily passed to NLE outsourcing
Minimal or no fear of data loss


The only solution of course was tape, HDV and the camera (XHA1) at under $3K allows us to offer 100% HD productions at competitively SD prices a year ago AND these cameras are holding there value until the "real" next gen format and/or camera solution comes along. We've lost nothing and gained 100% HD.

That said, if none of the above concern your business practice then by all means go for the HMC150 now that the price is hitting a very likable 3300 over at a store in Amazon, and especially now that SD cards have come down in price. However, if those items listed above are of concern then take the safe route for now and go tape that you're probably familiar with and archiving simplicity.

We did and wished we hadn't waited so long while also taking a terrible turn financially with all the camera switching and system changes. Geez, we turned our whole architecture upside down in literally 6 months time . . cameras, computer platform, NLE's, lighting, etc. Wow! Only audio remained untouched other than we unloaded the Neumann's and the Rolls (had too much audio gear - kept Sennheiser and Audio Technica).

[jeff9329]

"sindrejibb" for whatever it's worth we had the tapeless route with the HVX200 and 200A and for our Broadcast, Wedding, and Event the camera turned out to be far too demanding on light as compared to the XHA1.

Im not exatly sure what you mean. I think you mean the 200A (same sensor as HMC-150) needs more light than the XH-A1. I found just the opposite, the HMC-150 has better low light sensitivity and less noise than the XH-A1. That's one of the reasons I migrated to the HMC-150 from the A1.


That is, the XHA1 is right there with the DVX100B which we absolutely loved and put about 3000 hours on four of them and about 2000 hours on our four HVX's (2+2)

Will XH-A1 heads even last this long? You are bound to have many head problems/dropouts well before you get near these levels of hours.


"but in the long haul when thinking of a "next step" HD . . for us it boiled down to:


Ease in use
Easy and reliable archiving
NLE loved it
Readily accepted by our broadcast clients
Readily passed to NLE outsourcing
Minimal or no fear of data loss


I guess the grass is always greener on the other side. I went tapeless just for the reasons above except the broadcast & outsourcing bullets. I can't see anything being easier about using tapes. Just look how long it will take to ingest the tapes to the HD. Your archive solution can be HD, thats where the material is going, it's way less than half the cost of buying tapes, including redundantcy. HDs are about $0.09 per GB nowdays. So, a $70, 750GB HD will hold about 58 MiniDV tape equivalents ($0.83 per tape).

And when you get rid of the A1s like I did, you are stuck capturing all the tapes anyway or never getting the data off the tape.



The only solution of course was tape,...

I thought the only real solution was tapeless. I think it's much cheaper to archive tapeless and is the final step after producing the video. You can also keep the NLE files with the project.

I don't mean to sound like I am ragging on your camera choice, you just spent a lot of money switching cameras (me too, I could have sold you my mint A1s), I am just on the exact opposite side of the fence. Kinda funny.