Interesting D5 Mark II (cap)abilities -- more/new (careful) footage

[Emanuel]

http://www.vimeo.com/2053280

[bronxjragon]

wow! amazing

[Morox]

That was absolutely incredible; I'm blown away. I am more impressed with this than Laforet's video, reason being that this more than likely didn't have a budget and so it's more amateurish, but equally looks as awesome.

You'd swear you were watching a film aftre viewing this.

I am crossing my fingers that Canon will introdue 24p for this camera.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Excellent Work!!!

A++++++!

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Bottom line is Nikon needs to step up an and play their D3 version with Motion Capture if they have got it and it's ready to go.

That will really keep the ball going and change the paradigm as Nikon can go full manual and perhaps even a focus assist feature as they don't have a camcorder segment to protect.

[Kholi]

It looks like it was re-timed? Either way... I'm impressed, man. As far as straight image quality on the dollar this thing is intense.

[Mark Williams]

That was outstanding. I am downloading the QT version now. I was really interested in the description of the workflow as I also have CS3 w/o a real-time card. I never thought of rendering to the targa format. One thing that bothers me is not being able to do a slow zoom very smoothly. Also, the limitations of not having a coventional camcorder type manual control of aperature and shutter speed. Otherwise, the inconvience may be well worth the superior quality image.

[Thebes]

Bottom line is Nikon needs to step up an and play their D3 version with Motion Capture if they have got it and it's ready to go.

That will really keep the ball going and change the paradigm as Nikon can go full manual and perhaps even a focus assist feature as they don't have a camcorder segment to protect.

There have been rumors circulating that the D3x will be announced late Nov or early Dec and available by Feb. Of course, its going to cost... And who knows what, if any , video abilities it will have. And you know how rumors are, but it seems plausible that Nikon will tip their hand soon either way.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

There have been rumors circulating that the D3x will be announced late Nov or early Dec and available by Feb. Of course, its going to cost... And who knows what, if any , video abilities it will have. And you know how rumors are, but it seems plausible that Nikon will tip their hand soon either way.


Hope So.


I think it will.

I think it will be manual control too!

If not, F! 'em!

That is a lost opportunity that shouldn't be so easily forgiven.

[Matthew Bennett]

The low-light handling is insane... its worth buying the camera simply for the signal to noise ratio... Damnit why couldn't it'd be 24p..

[Pierre Petit]

Is the 5d mkII for sale already in japan? I would not be surprised if a firmware hack would allow for 24fps eventually.

[Pierre Petit]

Low light is nothing short of amazing!

[joe 1008]

Found a color corrected version on a 24p timeline. Some motion stutter but not THAT much. I ask myself if a more sophisticated workaround for 30p to 24p conversion would work fine...

ttp://vimeo.com/2061359

[ESTEBEVERDE]

http://vimeo.com/2061359

[Matthew Bennett]

I was up at the Canon head offices here in Toronto shooting an industrial, yesterday... for the photocopier division.

I was all excited about the possibility of seeing the mark2 they had there, so the photocopy rep took me up to see the camera rep.. but the 5d was out being tested by the photojournalists from the Toronto Sun (bastards), and then of course the rep told me that I wouldn't be able to shoot anything with the camera even if he did have it (bastards)

So, how do these guys get to go leisurely shoot all this stuff and then post it at will.... boggles me! (bastards)
I'm just showing my envy here of course...

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Hopefully we will all be one of those lucky bastards soon enough.

[Lee Wilson]

Found a color corrected version on a 24p timeline. Some motion stutter but not THAT much. I ask myself if a more sophisticated workaround for 30p to 24p conversion would work fine...

ttp://vimeo.com/2061359



I just re-timed a little chunck of that footage to 25p (for us in PAL land) and it looks great, no weirdness, just normal 25fps.

I didn't simply play the 30p back at 25p - but used After Effects to turn 2 seconds of NTSC/30p into 2 seconds of PAL/25p.

Worked surprisingly well, better than I thought.

http://www.vimeo.com/2069928

[joe 1008]

Hi Lee!

You did post the wrong link, it leads to the original footage. This is the right one:

http://www.vimeo.com/2069928

At first sight it looks perfekt. But watching the legs of the man leaving the frame of the first shot you can see an odd movement, his left leg is literally jumping out of the frame. The same happens in the second shot, when the last girl of the group of three enters the frame. The right girl of that group also makes an odd movement when her right leg is passing along her left leg.

As I understand it, it is difficult for interpolation software to interpretate objects that enter or leave the frame or that get hidden by other objects inside the frame. Some programs allow you to mask such objects (like Twixtor) to "explain" to the software, where they come from, where they are and where they go to. But doing so in every situation would suppose a heck of additional work, I suppose.

Said this I must add that, in this footage at least, these are minor flaws I could live with. And thanks a lot to you, Lee, that you postet this example, I was waiting a long time for something like this and I hope more converted footage will follow because it might become a very important workaround with the 5D.

[kubalsky]

Is the 5d mkII for sale already in japan? I would not be surprised if a firmware hack would allow for 24fps eventually.

I'm told by Yodabashi Camera Sales staff the Canon 5d mkII will be available here in Japan towards the end of November. Posters are up everywhere in stores already.
Cant wait.

[dcloud]

whats causing the stair step effect? not in the video, but in general

[Lee Wilson]

Hi Lee!

You did post the wrong link, it leads to the original footage. This is the right one:

http://www.vimeo.com/2069928

Whoops ! + Thanks for spotting that !




At first sight it looks perfekt. But watching the legs of the man leaving the frame of the first shot you can see an odd movement, his left leg is literally jumping out of the frame. The same happens in the second shot, when the last girl of the group of three enters the frame. The right girl of that group also makes an odd movement when her right leg is passing along her left leg.

As I understand it, it is difficult for interpolation software to interpretate objects that enter or leave the frame or that get hidden by other objects inside the frame. Some programs allow you to mask such objects (like Twixtor) to "explain" to the software, where they come from, where they are and where they go to. But doing so in every situation would suppose a heck of additional work, I suppose.

Said this I must add that, in this footage at least, these are minor flaws I could live with. And thanks a lot to you, Lee, that you postet this example, I was waiting a long time for something like this and I hope more converted footage will follow because it might become a very important workaround with the 5D.

Good points, quite subtle temporal artefacts, but still there.

I tried going from 60 frames to 100 frames and then back to 50 frames (so 2 seconds NTSC to 2 seconds PAL via 100 frames) - but it looked no better than simply going from 60 frames to 50 frames without first converting to 100 frames.

Bear in mind I just hit 83.333333% on the footage length and switched frame interpolation on - I did no other work.

In the Timewarp plug-in you have much more control and - as you say - Twixtor also has much more control, so maybe with some good settings even these slight temporal glitches could be addressed ?

To be honest I didn't even notice them untill you pointed them out and I had to watch a few times to see what you meant ! I guess I just have low standards !! :cheesy:

[joe 1008]

In fact I had to sit down and watch the clip again and again to see the artefacts. I just was so keen on seeing a footage like yours that I really spent some time with it.

It would be nice to see more complicated footage converted to 25p like a big crowd walking, some footage of fast moving people (like baseball or soccer players), more footage of people entering and leaving the frame. I think it's essential to see how the conversion works with people because it's the most sensible issue IMO.

I'm sure one could get even better results and I wished I had some software myself to try so. But I'm quite convinced already that I will buy the 5D when it comes out in november, and if there is no 25p implementation I'll have to find the best workflow to get 25p. anyway :)

Ah, and one question Lee:

How long did the conversion take on your computer and how fast is its CPU?

[Lee Wilson]

How long did the conversion take on your computer and how fast is its CPU?

One second I will run the process through again and time it . . . . . . .

[Lee Wilson]

About 1 minute for a 2 second clip (60 frames to 50 frames).

This is on a fairly old Mac G5 running at 2 x 2GHz (effectively 4GHz)

That spec is getting a little out of date as the current Mac Pros run at 8 x 3.2GHz (effectively 25.6GHz) - so I expect them to be a lot faster.

[Lee Wilson]

It would be nice to see more complicated footage converted to 25p like a big crowd walking, some footage of fast moving people (like baseball or soccer players), more footage of people entering and leaving the frame.


On the way . . . .




. . . . . . . . EDIT . . . . . . .

Here you go . . . http://www.vimeo.com/2072194 . . . I can see a few artefacts - but bear in mind that again I have done no tuning of any parameters or any masking etc.

This clip took 3 minutes 40 seconds to render on my Dual 2GHz G5.

[joe 1008]

I can see a few artefacts - but bear in mind that again I have done no tuning of any parameters or any masking etc.

This clip took 3 minutes 40 seconds to render on my Dual 2GHz G5.

Funny, this time It's me who can't find any artefacts. Looks really good. The only drawback is that it's about 1 hour of rendertime for one minute of footage - not counting time for settings, masking and so on. I don't know how long it takes to prepare the footage perfectly but I suppose that could take serveral hours. Over night your computer would do the rest of the job. So in an extra day of work - if you don't want to buy the latest Mac - you could convert no more than 15 to 20 minutes. That would be fine for video clips and features or documentaries but if you make your living with wedding videos, for example, it's definitively too slow.

[Lee Wilson]

Funny, this time It's me who can't find any artefacts. Looks really good.

There are lots of artefacts in that second example ! Step through frame by frame, they are not hard to spot.



The only drawback is that it's about 1 hour of rendertime for one minute of footage - not counting time for settings, masking and so on. I don't know how long it takes to prepare the footage perfectly but I suppose that could take serveral hours. Over night your computer would do the rest of the job. So in an extra day of work - if you don't want to buy the latest Mac - you could convert no more than 15 to 20 minutes. That would be fine for video clips and features or documentaries but if you make your living with wedding videos, for example, it's definitively too slow.

If you make your living with wedding videos there is no real need to deliver at 24 or 25p (??) as most domestic DVD players handle both NTSC and PAL frame rates.

??

[joe 1008]

No, I generally don't do wedding vids. I just gave an example of a job where you have to deal with longer but not so time intensive footage. Take a daily news report in PAL land, a daily soap or what ever...

And could you please give me a hint where you found the artefacts? Maybe I'm simply too hungover today to see them...

[Lee Wilson]

And could you please give me a hint where you found the artefacts? Maybe I'm simply too hungover today to see them...

There are few of these kinds of things going on:

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/4121/mejm1.jpg

[ydgmdlu]

whats causing the stair step effect? not in the video, but in general
The camera is throwing away or ignoring lines in order to speed-up the downsampling/reading process.

[joe 1008]

There are few of these kinds of things going on:

Thank you, Lee. These artefacts are strange and interesting. In the moving video they appear less, especially on your post on vimeo which was not in HD. Still hopeful that with more advanced software and better settings there is hope for flawless 25p on the 5D.

[booggerg2]

I'll say it again. DOF adapter is dead.. forget all the shortcomings of this camera, this image quality result makes it worthwhile to ditch the prosumercam+DOF adapter.

[murcott]

I'll say it again. DOF adapter is dead...


agreeed!!! :zombie_smiley:

[Lee Wilson]

Thank you, Lee. These artefacts are strange and interesting. In the moving video they appear less, especially on your post on vimeo which was not in HD.

It is HD, but Vimeo has recently (in the last few days changed) and now only alllows 1 HD upload a week to show as HD - but you can still download my 1280x720 file that I uploaded.

[Lee Wilson]

I'll say it again. DOF adapter is dead.. forget all the shortcomings of this camera, this image quality result makes it worthwhile to ditch the prosumercam+DOF adapter.


Agreed.

[beckspace]

I'll say it again. DOF adapter is dead..

not only agree but I sold my M2 HD kit as Nikon released the D90

Not only a HVX + M2 rig monster with a flipped monitor was a nightmare, it kills the low light that is so important to me and that the 5D is so outstanding

the 5D also kills the D90 in "sea footage" department

But I found 5D colors, as all Canon cams, very Michael Mann, I'm not very found of the Miami Vice look

[murcott]

not only agree but I sold my M2 HD kit as Nikon released the D90

I also looked into my crystal ball and saw the same thing!

So i jumped the gun and just sold my A1 along with my sgpro unit. Thought i sell it early and get maximum resell value before theres a flood in the "used" camera market by early 09.

I swear in a year from now... whos going to pay $4500, $3900, $3200 or even lets say $2000 for a used Letus Ultimate adapter?!?

I know its early but SELL SELL SELL before your shiz decreases in value.

[BLUESPIDER]

That footage from the CanonMII camera looks like freakin film. Forgret about those little issues since most audiences won't even notice them, the overall look of this camera is amazing. I hope Nikon comes out with a better version soon. I'm still getting a D90 no matter what since I only own nothing but Nikon lenses but that Canon looks tight!

[bronxjragon]

I for one am hopping on the bandwagon purely for convenience sake of carrying around a 5D instead of an XH-A1

[Morox]

I for one am hopping on the bandwagon purely for convenience sake of carrying around a 5D instead of an XH-A1

That's one of the reasons I want the 5D.

[Joseph Stunzi]

I think lack of decent sound inputs is a big inconvenience for the time being!
I also think file size limitations are a big deal for anyone interested in filming long interviews or any news footage. I also think focusing is a big inconvenience because the DOF is a lot shallower on these cameras! You can't auto-focus during the shot my friends. So I think there's some obsticals to overcome for the time being. I'm waiting on second generation of these little DLSRs to make any big switches.

Just playing devil's advocate!

[HowdyDoo]

It took 3 years for Canon to update the Canon 5D despite massive advancements in technology and stiff competition. Don't expect a second generation anytime soon.

[Joseph Stunzi]

i'm sure they've got all got their own game plans. I'm curious about the Scarlet Announcement too! Who knows where we'll be in a year or two though.

[Andrew McMillan]

decent sound inputs? just get a beachtek.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Touché

[Andrew McMillan]

oh ho ho!

no but really if they do 24p, i'll never think about an hvx-35 adaptor combo agian.

[Joseph Stunzi]

I still think pulling focus on one of these cameras is going to a challenge for most people used to 35mm adapters.

[Andrew McMillan]

I only worried about how to do handheld. Honestly I need both hands on the lens, I haven't seen any setup's that allow that.

[Joseph Stunzi]

Need both hands on the lens?

[ecking]

The people jumping on the bandwagon selling their adapters and video cameras already obviously don't make money with their setup.

[bronxjragon]

The people jumping on the bandwagon selling their adapters and video cameras already obviously don't make money with their setup.

No they just know how to fool customers in achieving film look without the need for a whole rig and now that they can achieve the result with a portable system why not go for it. Anyway half the people who say they're going to buy it usually don't.

[watson]

I also think some people are forgetting that if you add up the glass that were used on some of these test shoots you are talking another 10 - 20k. I think some people might be dissapointed when there footage doesnt look as good with thier stock zoom lenses vs. a $2000 prime.

[bronxjragon]

i also think some people are forgetting that if you add up the glass that were used on some of these test shoots you are talking another 10 - 20k. I think some people might be dissapointed when there footage doesnt look as good with thier stock zoom lenses vs. A $2000 prime.

10,000 - 20,000?????

[murcott]

10,000 - 20,000?????

You heard correctly. One can easily spend 20k + on a good set of canon lens.

85mm f1.2 is about $2000, 50mm f1.2 is another $1600, 24mm f1.4 about $1900. A nice 200mm f2.0 is around $7000.... We are jst getting started and we are already past 10k. Most of the those pro foto guys have at least 10 lens or more. I'd say about a 30k investment or more.

[Pierre N Petit]

I have to agree with what some people say about portability. I guess it all depends on what you do. For travel videography it seems like a no brainer. I already travel with a canon 40d, a few lenses+ plus my hvx200. So i would not mind leaving the hvx at home and substract a few kilos worth of equipment. With a timer remote shutter i can do timelapse with the dslr already so i would only be missing the 60fps.
For me the second big plus is the low light. It means being able to capture some stuff that is just not possible with the hvx, or most other video cams.
I will just wait and see when we have more example of footage before getting the MKii tough. See how the codec holds up. See if the rolling shutter is a big issue.

[Pierre N Petit]

Anyone knows how would a 400mm on a full frame dslr compare to the stock hvx lense in terms of zoom reach?

[Matthew Bennett]

A 400mm full frame would be about the exact same as the max zoom on an HVX or DVX

[bronxjragon]

50mm f1.2 is another $1600, 24mm f1.4 about $1900. A nice 200mm f2.0 is around $7000.... We are jst getting started and we are already past 10k. Most of the those pro foto guys have at least 10 lens or more. I'd say about a 30k investment or more.[/quote]

so you're telling me a 50mm f1.2 can be $1600 when i can find a 50mm f1.4 for like $120? Is .2 really that big of a change???

[John Caballero]

so you're telling me a 50mm f1.2 can be $1600 when i can find a 50mm f1.4 for like $120? Is .2 really that big of a change???

Just $1480.00 down the drain. Those prices are just ridiculous.

[murcott]

so you're telling me a 50mm f1.2 can be $1600 when i can find a 50mm f1.4 for like $120? Is .2 really that big of a change???

Theres a bit of a guilty difference between $150 and a $1500 lens. The price jump is not really because of the .2... Its a combination of things. Mostly $1500 lens is for elites users who want product that comes with high performance and high quality lens design etc... The 50mm f1.2 a like a Bently and the cheaper 50mm f1.4 is like a honda civic. They both produce an image and do wat a lens is suppose to do for the user. But, some people like to spend alittle extra to get the best image.

Theres a few other lens manufacturers that make a 50mm f1.4 lens thats in the thousand dollar range. A simple Cooke S4 lens is like $4000 for a simple 50mm f1.4 or i think its a f1.8.... i cant remember.

[bronxjragon]

Theres a bit of a guilty difference between $150 and a $1500 lens. The price jump is not really because of the .2... Its a combination of things. Mostly $1500 lens is for elites users who want product that comes with high performance and high quality lens design etc... The 50mm f1.2 a like a Bently and the cheaper 50mm f1.4 is like a honda civic. They both produce an image and do wat a lens is suppose to do for the user. But, some people like to spend alittle extra to get the best image.

Theres a few other lens manufacturers that make a 50mm f1.4 lens thats in the thousand dollar range. A simple Cooke S4 lens is like $4000 for a simple 50mm f1.4 or i think its a f1.8.... i cant remember.

thanks for the info buddy i didnt know that before. craziness

[Steve Castle]

Theres a bit of a guilty difference between $150 and a $1500 lens. The price jump is not really because of the .2... Its a combination of things. Mostly $1500 lens is for elites users who want product that comes with high performance and high quality lens design etc... The 50mm f1.2 a like a Bently and the cheaper 50mm f1.4 is like a honda civic. They both produce an image and do wat a lens is suppose to do for the user. But, some people like to spend alittle extra to get the best image.

Theres a few other lens manufacturers that make a 50mm f1.4 lens thats in the thousand dollar range. A simple Cooke S4 lens is like $4000 for a simple 50mm f1.4 or i think its a f1.8.... i cant remember.

I suppose you could spend $11,000 for a Leica 50mm f/0.95 Noctilux if you absolutely must have the most expensive 50mm lens :beer:

I used to own a 50mm f/1.2 before I moved to a Nikon system (I sold it to get a Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8). The real world differences between a 1.2 and 1.4 are very small in terms of quality, it is sharper when you pixel peep. Its worth it if you can afford it, but lens quality these days have come to a level where most lenses are very excellent in quality. I recently tested out a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 and was stunned by the quality (since I have a negative bias against Sigma).

[bronxjragon]

I suppose you could spend $11,000 for a Leica 50mm f/0.95 Noctilux if you absolutely must have the most expensive 50mm lens :beer:

I used to own a 50mm f/1.2 before I moved to a Nikon system (I sold it to get a Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8). The real world differences between a 1.2 and 1.4 are very small in terms of quality, it is sharper when you pixel peep. Its worth it if you can afford it, but lens quality these days have come to a level where most lenses are very excellent in quality. I recently tested out a Sigma 50mm f/1.4 and was stunned by the quality (since I have a negative bias against Sigma).

thats what i was thinking because i have some pentax lenses that i bought for so cheap and quality was awesome

[Chris_TC]

Theres a bit of a guilty difference between $150 and a $1500 lens. The price jump is not really because of the .2... Its a combination of things. Mostly $1500 lens is for elites users who want product that comes with high performance and high quality lens design etc... The 50mm f1.2 a like a Bently and the cheaper 50mm f1.4 is like a honda civic. They both produce an image and do wat a lens is suppose to do for the user. But, some people like to spend alittle extra to get the best image.
It's just that for shooting video most cheapo plastic lenses are going to produce a great image. These lenses are designed to resolve a lot more than 2 megapixels. Even the cheapest ones.
Also, you don't need the wider max apertures due to the 5d having less depth of field than 35mm to begin with, and due to it being great in low light.

[Jokerswild]

man, you guys are getting me excited about this camera now...I have had one on order and paid in full with Calumet Photographic now for a few weeks.....I got it as a backup for my Canon 1DSMKII without even considering it for video purposes...Now I am thinking that this may be the best $2700 I ever spent...

NOTE: could someone please give me a little feed back to my question here: I really need to get some input before I start my documentary..Thanks folks.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=151269
Steve
www.sjbaraophoto.com

[ecking]

No they just know how to fool customers in achieving film look without the need for a whole rig and now that they can achieve the result with a portable system why not go for it. Anyway half the people who say they're going to buy it usually don't.

Someone who shot with the 5DMII showed me his original raw footage and it just isn't that great. Everyone else will see that in a few weeks. With extreme control you can get a decent picture but trust me when I say except for the occasional shooter, you will not be tricking clients this that their product was shot with footage from the big leagues.

Everyone should wait until the same technology is put into real video cameras, unless your a hobbyist or doing short clips.

[tallrd]

Canon is allowing pre-orders since a week or so (?) now. As seems to always be the case with a new Canon product, availability will be much lower than units pre-sold.