Panasonic Folks how about some answers please?

[BrianMurphy]

Perhaps Jan or someone from Panasonic could put those of us concerned or undecided "potential buyers" of the HMC150 at ease.
Is there anyway to shed some light on the issues everyone seems to be having in post? I have read the threads and like the concept but there does not seem to be much Panasonic support for the AVC-HD after acquisition.
All of the benefits of inexpensive recording media and HDMI out are wonderful but after you shoot it you have to edit. Like many as I have mentioned in another thread, I would love to own this camera but don't want to toss out everything I currently own in order to be able to edit.
Are there or were there any discussions with Apple or Adobe or anyone regarding native editing. Adobe's CS4 from what I read here and elsewhere is not there yet.
I guess what I am saying is that other than responding to questions about the build of the camera and its pros and cons Panasonic seems to be quite quiet about the HMC150 "postability".

I find this very confusing, and can't help but ask the question why P2 and AVC-HD is there a conflict of interest here or what?

[Barry_Green]

Panasonic doesn't make NLE software, nor do they endorse one over the other, so ... not sure what you're asking for here.

FCP works today if you use log & transfer. iMovie works today. FCExpress works today, doesn't it?

Adobe CS4 has fantastic support, way better than anything else I've seen.

EDIUS works today, in version 5.

Sony Vegas 8.0c works right now.

So what doesn't work? Avid, I guess...

And Apple has announced that the next version of FCP will have native codec support for AVC-HD.

And for any editing software that doesn't have support, you can always use the free downloadable conversion utility that converts AVCHD into DVCPRO-HD. Which would work for Avid.

[BrianMurphy]

Thanks Barry,
I realize that Panasonic is not responsible for the NLE software. I don't expect that they would endorse one over another either. However in the group there are many posts describing issues editing AVC-HD from the HMC 150. In other groups I have found the same. So I have trouble understanding if it is a seamless simple process to cut the footage why are there some many posts? One of my concerns is if I buy this camera am I going to have to get rid of my MacBook Pro duo 2.16 which have been my editing machine for 2.5 years? Are my barracuda raids too slow? Will editing entail transcoding and creating versions for clients to see rather that playing back from the timeline on the laptop as I do now. The footage I have dl from here and transcoded has me asking these questions as it chugs and jumps through the timeline. I am in a "Run and Gun" area of the business where I need portability so I have to be able to edit on a laptop.
Thanks again
Brian

[VideoMaker]

Barry, there are some problems with Vegas 8.0c. Specifically, 720p60 clips of any length won't render without a bad jittering. Several of us have experienced this. I've reported this to Sony Creative Software and sent a sample project. They acknowledged it was a complex problem that won't be resolved quickly. Some of us have also had problems with Vegas locking at the end of clips. The workaround is to trim off the right edge of the clip, or crossfade with another clip.



Sony Vegas 8.0c works right now.

So what doesn't work? Avid, I guess...

[Barry_Green]

So I have trouble understanding if it is a seamless simple process to cut the footage why are there some many posts?
Can't answer that one... other than to say look at the hundreds or thousands of posts from FCP users still having trouble with P2 stuff. FCP was the first editor to support DVCPRO-HD, and many people report it works well, but we still get multiple reports daily from different users claiming Log & Transfer doesn't work.

My simple response? FCP's implementation is stupid. No other editor makes you jump through those hoops, just to enforce their proprietary file format on the world. I do not like it. And I don't care how many people do, the fact is that it leads to more customer support issues on this forum than perhaps any other thing.

So some FCP users are gonna have trouble no matter what they use, if they're running into P2 trouble after 2.5 years. And until they demand better from Apple, it's not going to get any better. Apple's making HMC150 users go through the same inane "Log & Transfer" step that causes so many people to have P2 issues. It's just plain stupid and it's something that should be condemned. But, whenever I say that, I get "in trouble" from all sorts of folks ranging from casual users to the most virulent Apple defenders, plus we get dozens of reports of "works fine for me." Which is, okay, fine -- of course it works fine for many people -- most people, actually. I mean, think about it - people rarely come on the forums and say "hey, guess what, everything worked just GREAT today!" They only come on the forums when they have a problem, to complain about what doesn't work and to look for solutions, right? Well, that's where I think we probably are with AVCHD too -- you're only hearing from the people who are having problems.

So -- AVCHD is new. Editing support is new. I do expect there will be teething pains and growing pains. But every editor has support now, to some degree or other, except perhaps Avid. The HMC150 camera has been on the market ONE MONTH. Keep in mind that the first 720p HDV camera, the JVC HD1, was on the market for a YEAR AND A HALF before FCP and Avid added HDV support. The Sony FX1, the first 1080i HDV camera, was on the market for SIX MONTHS before FCP and Avid had support. The first 24P HDV camera, the HD100, was on the market for (IIRC) 2 and a half years before Avid finally added support.

So don't expect perfect integration overnight, but I do think it's rather remarkable that every major NLE company (other than Avid) has some level of support right now, and it'll get better as time passes.

From my perspective, what I saw of Adobe CS4 was nothing short of astonishing as to how well it worked with HMC150 footage and it's far and away my recommendation for those who want to edit this camera's footage.

One of my concerns is if I buy this camera am I going to have to get rid of my MacBook Pro duo 2.16 which have been my editing machine for 2.5 years?
Don't know. If you plan on native editing, a 2.5-year-old computer is probably gonna be pretty slow to handle the processor-intensive AVCHD codec. Can your system handle ProRes fine? That's Apple's workflow right now for FCP, is to transcode to ProRes.

Are my barracuda raids too slow?
If you're editing the native footage, no RAID will be too slow. If you're talking about ProRes, then ... well, that's a different question, and I guess you'd have to just try some pro-res stuff out.

Will editing entail transcoding and creating versions for clients to see rather that playing back from the timeline on the laptop as I do now.
If you're using FCP or iMovie, all editing will entail transcoding -- that's just how Apple rolls. Their next version of FCP is supposed to add native codec support. Everyone else supports the codec natively.

As for clients seeing things, you can just copy the raw files right to a DVD or SD card and play them on a blu-ray player or PS3.

[jeff9329]

Barry, there are some problems with Vegas 8.0c. Specifically, 720p60 clips of any length won't render without a bad jittering. Several of us have experienced this. I've reported this to Sony Creative Software and sent a sample project. They acknowledged it was a complex problem that won't be resolved quickly. Some of us have also had problems with Vegas locking at the end of clips. The workaround is to trim off the right edge of the clip, or crossfade with another clip.

Videomaker:

I am not having either of the two problems you describe on my install of Vegas 8.0c and I have probably edited 2 full projects and 10+ small or test projects.

Have you been posting in the Sony Creative Software/Vegas forum with your issues? That would be the place to start with Vegas problems.

NLE problems are very frustrating and the threads here are starting to remind me of 2004 when everyone was starting to edit HDV. The AVCHD issues are nothing compared to the old HDV issues, some which still exist, like Vegas HDV capture (especially from the XH-A1).

[kurtmo]

Jeff, can you try the clip I posted in this thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=150220)? The clip hangs Vegas towards the end. I've seen it with several other clips as well.

Thanks,

Kurt

Videomaker:

I am not having either of the two problems you describe on my install of Vegas 8.0c and I have probably edited 2 full projects and 10+ small or test projects.

[jason.adams]

So what doesn't work? Avid, I guess...

Barry is correct. Avid does not support AVCHD. You can transcode to DVCPRO as he mentioned, but Avid defiantly does not support this format or Canon's 24F. I have been having some conversations with an Avid product designer about this, and they say it is on the Avid Radar, but did not have a definitive time frame.

[dcloud]

tested downloaded clips on premiere cs4

cs4 does not have 720p on avchd?
It runs fine on 1080p but not when it requires rendering though...

C2Q 2.4ghz, 2mb ram

[BrianMurphy]

Barry,
Thanks for taking the time to respond in detail. I appreciate your advice and your opinions as do we all and will move forward hopefully having only to upgrade one piece of my gear at a time.

Brian

[jeff9329]

Jeff, can you try the clip I posted in this thread (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=150220)? The clip hangs Vegas towards the end. I've seen it with several other clips as well.

Thanks,

Kurt

Kurt:

I downloaded the file and saw it had a .m2ts file extension so I didn't try it. A file directly out of the camera should have a .mts file extension.

Jeff

[shadowProd]

I was at the DV expo today and spoke with a rep from Adobe. He was very nice and very informative. I told him what was happening with me regarding the native editing on CS4 and he confirmed it all and told me that they are working on it and that there will be an update in November and one in January that will resolve all these issues.

[mcsmooth]

Kurt:

I downloaded the file and saw it had a .m2ts file extension so I didn't try it. A file directly out of the camera should have a .mts file extension.

Jeff

They are the same file, m2ts is just in blue-ray style naming. The AVCCAM viewer software renames files this way but content is the same. If the program is annoying enough to reject the extension, just rename it.

[pgovotsos]

EDIUS works today, in version 5.


I can confirm that Edius can edit all the 150's resolutions native. On my dual processor system, it edits realtime even with filters applied. Multitrack sequences (PIP etc) does start to slow down. On the quad processor, PIP is realtime.

Panagiotis

[thrillcat editorial]

FCP was the first editor to support DVCPRO-HD, and many people report it works well, but we still get multiple reports daily from different users claiming Log & Transfer doesn't work.

The fact that it does work well for some (most, actually) is evidence that it's not a FCP issue, it's certain users' individual system, and what other things they're using their machine from. I can say from researching the HMC-150 that 99% of all problems people are having with the camera's footage are related to Perian.

My simple response? FCP's implementation is stupid. No other editor makes you jump through those hoops, just to enforce their proprietary file format on the world. I do not like it. And I don't care how many people do, the fact is that it leads to more customer support issues on this forum than perhaps any other thing.

If people would simply do a little bit of research before buying/installing/complaining, they could keep a stable system.

So some FCP users are gonna have trouble no matter what they use, if they're running into P2 trouble after 2.5 years. And until they demand better from Apple, it's not going to get any better. Apple's making HMC150 users go through the same inane "Log & Transfer" step that causes so many people to have P2 issues. It's just plain stupid and it's something that should be condemned.
But, whenever I say that, I get "in trouble" from all sorts of folks ranging from casual users to the most virulent Apple defenders, plus we get dozens of reports of "works fine for me." Which is, okay, fine -- of course it works fine for many people -- most people, actually. I mean, think about it - people rarely come on the forums and say "hey, guess what, everything worked just GREAT today!" They only come on the forums when they have a problem, to complain about what doesn't work and to look for solutions, right? Well, that's where I think we probably are with AVCHD too -- you're only hearing from the people who are having problems.

Personally I like the Log & Transfer. Because I never want to load all the footage I shot, whether it's on film, tape, or hard disk. I don't need it all. The Log & Transfer is just like Log & Capture from tape, it allows me to only pull in the footage I'm going to want. It's actually like doing the first pass of the edit for me. It makes the rest of the editing process go faster. And with Log & Transfer, by the time I'm done logging, the transfer process is already almost complete.

And again, I want to bring up the fact that BECAUSE of the fact that there are reports of "works fine for me," we KNOW that it works. It may not work on YOUR system if you've installed too much garbage on it for stealing video off YouTube. It may not work on YOUR system if you didn't research your purchase and didn't realize that it's not going to operate on your G5 running OSX 10.3.9. Sorry. I do research before purchases, and I keep my edit system clean.

I agree with every other aspect of your post. This is a new format. It's a great format, and a great camera. Give it some time and do your research before you spend the money (like the OP is doing). I hate the fact my first post on here was of this nature. But I love the fact that my first post on here wasn't "HELP!!! I CAN'T EDIT THIS FOOTAGE AND MY PROJECT IS DUE TOMORROW!!!"

I just received my HMC-150 Friday. Yesterday (Monday) I shot and edited my first project with it. Flawlessly. In Final Cut Studio. Without a hitch.

Oh, I ran into a couple issues over the weekend while testing the camera. Tried running 1080p30 footage on my MacBookPro via a FW800 2-drive RAID 0. Got stuttering and green frames. 1080p24 worked fine, but not the 1080p30. But it worked fine on the Mac Pro in my office.

Still haven't tested any of the 720p formats. Have heard FCP won't work with them yet. But that's okay, I planned on shooting the 1080 formats anyway. I have the advantage of a job that doesn't require me to play nicely with other cameras, and I deliver primarily to DVD, PowerPoint, & web, so I don't have to worry about outputs for broadcast or film.

So what I'm saying is, talk about what you use. All the info about CS4 was great. The correlations to HDV and the JVC camera were right on. But all the other stuff was opinion and false information. You're just throwing that in there and it's not helping anyone. "It doesn't work for most people, it's stupid." Well, that's not true. It is working for most people, and the fact that you think it's stupid really doesn't make a difference to me. Put the facts out there so people can make honest decisions. I could speak to Avid Media Composer Adrenaline, or Symphony, because I've used them. I could talk about Sony Vegas, but only up to version 4, because I've used it.

The fact of the matter is, if people do their research before making purchases or installing software, they will have much fewer, if any, problems.

I've had Final Cut Pro systems since 2004. I've worked with DV, DVCPro50, BetaSP, Digibeta, DVCProHD from tape & P2, 720p30 HDV, and HDCAM. I've used AJA products exclusively. I have had exactly zero problems that could not be fixed by trashing preferences. Which takes about 60 seconds to shut down FCP, trash them, and restart. I was the first one in my market to use the HVX200, when it had just come out. I shot, loaded, and cut a spot the day after the camera came in. Without a hitch.

So, there's my first post. I'll be around. I try not to complain, but I can't stand posts like the first half of this one.

[monkeyking]

Thrillcat gets Best First Post Award.

[Barry_Green]

Thrillcat, welcome to the forum, and we always welcome anyone who can assist the members to get the results they want. Yes there was plenty of opinion in that post, even heated opinion, because personally I'm fed up with Apple's proprietary/controlling attitude, but I'd be thrilled to never have to ever deal with another FCP support issue. I get Private Messages pretty much every single day from users who can't figure out how to get FCP to work, and who frequently blame anything and everything BUT FCP for the problems. I've even got an FCS license, but I don't use it for legions of reasons, and don't care to. I typically refer these users over to Shane or Noah in the hopes that those guys can help the FCP users get to the bottom of why they aren't having success.

So while we may disagree on the validity and usefulness of Apple's approach (and we do most fervently disagree), I am glad there's someone else here who will hopefully assist the members who choose FCP to get the results they desire.

[David S.]

There always a flip side to these things. Apple's "proprietary/controlling attitude" also means that there are less hardware conflicts, which I appreciate.

My guess is that poorly maintained systems account for many of the problems you see here. Not to say FCP doesn't have some bugs. But so does just about every other NLE.

People don't usually come to dvxuser.com, or 2-pop or the Apple Discussions and report that everything is running smoothly. They come with problems.

I know that you don't like Apple's approach, and I respect your opinion.

But unless you work in FCP every day as many do, I don't think you get a full view of its workflow. Sometimes you need to do that to appreciate why it approaches transcoding to QT instead of native support. As TC reports and I agree, I like the log and transfer option.

We disagree on this, but I don't think that just because people come with issues means that those people are representative of all or even most users experiences.

After all FCP remains one of the most popular NLEs out there.