I have EX1 vs HMC150 vs A1 footage

[xt777]

PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING : ALL CAMERAS WERE STOCK. ALL CAMERAS WERE SET TO FULL AUTO MODE. ALL FOOTAGE IS 1080i60

CORRECTION. EX3 vs. 150 vs. A1

Shot same shots with all three cameras. Am happy to share, but have no place to host it.

777

[Chenopup]

In the meantime, can you post stills and your impressions on pros / cons of each camera with corresponding footage?

[xt777]

In the meantime, can you post stills and your impressions on pros / cons of each camera with corresponding footage?

ducks.

[xt777]

...image posting issues resolved!

[PerroneFord]

They all look lovely.

[Mike Harvey]

try vimeo

[PerroneFord]

It would also help if you weren't shooting interlaced.

[xt777]

stained glass.

[xt777]

Like the color on the panasonic. Love the low light performance of the panasonic. Wish it produced a sharper image. Both the A1 and the EX3 seem to resolve better. Look at the detail in the edges of the stained glass book and the trunks of the trees.

[PerroneFord]

Well, we all know the EXx is sharper than the HMC. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. However, I would ask if you spent any time adjusting the colors on the Sony cameras. They do not come out of the box with "correct" colors. There are numerous threads that offer information on how to get the camera color neutral, and set it up for work.

It seems that whenever I see these comparison tests it's "out of the box" look. And the Panasonic's come from the factory with a lovely look to them. No doubt about it. The EXx cameras are increadibly tweakable though and I'd wager could match the color rendition of the Panasonics with a bit of effort. They won't match the "look" of the Panasonic though for various reasons.

[xt777]

Well, we all know the EXx is sharper than the HMC. That shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. However, I would ask if you spent any time adjusting the colors on the Sony cameras. They do not come out of the box with "correct" colors. There are numerous threads that offer information on how to get the camera color neutral, and set it up for work.

It seems that whenever I see these comparison tests it's "out of the box" look. And the Panasonic's come from the factory with a lovely look to them. No doubt about it. The EXx cameras are increadibly tweakable though and I'd wager could match the color rendition of the Panasonics with a bit of effort. They won't match the "look" of the Panasonic though for various reasons.

all stock. all full auto. no manipulation.

[PerroneFord]

What are you trying to show with your comparison? Perhaps I misunderstand your purpose.

Certainly, when I go to a shoot, I spend a lot of time setting up my camera, my audio, my lighting, etc. I don't think I've ever walked onto a shoot, not touched a thing and said, "let's record!"

Perhaps others might take a camera out of the box, set it on auto everything, and shoot with it. I don't consider that very professional, but that's just me. Thus, when I see a camera test, for it to be meaningful to me, I'd want it adjusted like I was going to use it.

Showing still photos on DVXUser of cameras recording 60i isn't really going to be very helpful to anyone at this level.


all stock. all full auto. no manipulation.

[xt777]

A comparison of each camera completely tweaked by a pro with extensive experience on the particular camera s/he was controlling would be very informative. My intention in doing the comparison in this fashion was to eliminate the human variable. I did not want any differences in the images to be attributable to me. In this case, all differences are a result of the camera itself. Please consider the conditions of this comparison ( all stock all auto) when analyzing the footage.

[xt777]

Showing still photos on DVXUser of cameras recording 60i isn't really going to be very helpful to anyone at this level.

Since we will be shooting primarily in 1080i, I did my comparison in that mode. My original intention was to find someone to host video files, not to post still images. However, images were requested and I complied.

[PerroneFord]

Since we will be shooting primarily in 1080i, I did my comparison in that mode. My original intention was to find someone to host video files, not to post still images. However, images were requested and I complied.

Fair enough.

The issue of course, is that shooting interlaced and then hosting on a computer is going to look ugly. Interlaced footage on an interlaced medium like TV is just fine. Progressive works fine in either place.

[PerroneFord]

A comparison of each camera completely tweaked by a pro with extensive experience on the particular camera s/he was controlling would be very informative. My intention in doing the comparison in this fashion was to eliminate the human variable. I did not want any differences in the images to be attributable to me. In this case, all differences are a result of the camera itself. Please consider the conditions of this comparison ( all stock all auto) when analyzing the footage.

Ok, I see where you're going. Unfortunately, we make art. And the skill of the operator is a crucial factor in making that art.

[xt777]

Ok, I see where you're going. Unfortunately, we make art. And the skill of the operator is a crucial factor in making that art.

I have a substantial knowledge and experience bias that would favor one of these cameras and so I tried to eliminate it. While the "skill of the operator is a crucial factor," this test was set up to compare cameras not operator skill or knowledge. I believe a tweaked vs. tweaked vs. tweaked comparison would be quite valuable. I would love to see a footage comparison of the EX3 controlled by the world's best EX3 op vs. an HMC150 controlled by the world's best HMC150 op vs... However, this is not that sort of a comparison and I went back and made a large note of this on the first post. I apologize for any confusion.

777

[PerroneFord]

Cool man, I wasn't trying to bust your chops. I was just trying to get an understand for why someone would do a test the way you've done it. But your explanation makes perfect sense.

[jeff9329]

It seems that whenever I see these comparison tests it's "out of the box" look. And the Panasonic's come from the factory with a lovely look to them. No doubt about it. The EXx cameras are increadibly tweakable though and I'd wager could match the color rendition of the Panasonics with a bit of effort. They won't match the "look" of the Panasonic though for various reasons.

They are all very tweakable, almost to a fault. It took me a week to get the A1 to match the HMC150 and they still didn't meet at the point I wanted. Xt777, I can see why you would not try any scene file settings on all three.

Also, I have not come up with or seen any optimal scene files for the HMC150 just yet, it's a little too new.

Peronne, a jpg screen capture using most NLEs will look exactly the same no matter if the original file is progressive or interlaced. The NLEs automatically capture a full image. The jpg is then just a static image.

[ullanta]

Hey, Xt... I just wanted to compliment you on your framing! For some reason, these comparison-type stills almost always have differences in framing that make comparison trickier... but these are perfect!

[Bill Grant]

I have to admit that I'm so glad I can't see a difference between these shots. It must be so aggravating to be aesthetically advanced. I know when I first heard that pedal squeak on "Moby Dick" and if any of you've heard it the song is never the same... but anyway my dull senses aside, they look remarkably similar to me...
Bill

[Hidef1080]

Good comparo...

Of the images here I like the EX best out of the box but an adjusted 150 goes a long way!

[Evro]

Wow, I had completely forgotten about that pedal squeak (also featured on "Whole Lot a Love") - oh man what memories :D

Okay, now back to our regular programming...

[combatentropy]

Thanks for the comparison. It looks like it was a lot of work, and I appreciate you doing this.

I agree with some of the others that setting each in factory defaults, full auto, is less useful of a comparison than it sounds.

- auto exposure usually auto-over-exposes
- manual focus sometimes hunts
- default colors not very informative if you can highly tweak them

A better comparison, if anyone here has the time and resources, would be to manually tweak each one. But not for a given slant (like hyper blue or whatever) but to the most neutral look possible.

"Removing the human element" sounds scientific, but it's really not in this case because a different human decided on the factory defaults for each camera. It would be more scientific to reduce the differences as much as possible, even though that does of course involve human action.

But thanks again for your study. It still helps.

[Johnny M.]

Thanks for the stills...

It seems to me that this kind of test gives at least a general idea of the resolution capabilities of these cameras.

Unless the 150 is consistently out of focus in these test shots, it seems to have the poorest resolution of three.

I suppose that it could be out of focus, but what would that say about its auto-focus ability on bright, high-contrast subjects?

[Evro]

I doubt it is out of focus, it just has the lowest resolution imagers of all three cameras.

[pailes]

It has been mentioned many times that the strength of the HMC150 is 720p and not 1080i. I think shooting 60 (or 50 for PAL) progressive pictures per second is a huge improvement over the XH-A1.

[rc444]

Sorry, which order are the clips?

Is the top left the EX3, the 150 the top right, and the bottom the HVX?

[Jokerswild]

I think if you click on each image, the label .jpg label states which camera was used. And thank you for making those shots available for us. I find it quite useful.

[Green Hornet]

All of the images, to me, look similiar.
That has not been my experience viewing moving footage on a 1080 source.

The 150 I have seen, looks like a wide screen version of the old sony pd150
(maybe not that good in low light, but flatness in color and lacking detail in dark areas)

The EX1 moving image looks more detailed, with solid and rich colors.

I hate the rolling shutter. The first time I saw it, I didn't know what was going on.
I don't like it, but that type of stuff, I can use a different camera, or the viewing audience won't think anything more than it being the flash of photographers
(not an issue with the video).

I know it is an issue with the video, but I have not heard anyone blame the video
(speaking of a casual non video person) they tend to blame the photographers.

[Stevet]

If you could offer uncompressed frame grabs, it may give a better idea of performance.
There's more compression artifacts in the blue skyline around the tree image in the HMC150 than the other two cameras.
You can see this by viewing the full 1080 image.

[Retrospective]

Footage would be better :)

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Footage

[Justyn]

Here's that High res 150 footie.

http://www.electriccowtheater.com/NWC/NWC150t.mov

[ullanta]

Jusryn... nice footage... but wtf?

I love it!

[David Saraceno]

What was the subject of your footage Justyn?

[Justyn]

It's a Christmas Piece... Angels, Crown of thorns and some whacky dancing. I have the whole show shot and I'll put it up if people want to see it. We had 3 screens going and it was really pretty cool stuff. I'm producing a ton of content for a church along with producing a TV show.


This week I produced a 28.5 minute TV show and a 3 screen multi-media presentation. easily topped a 100 hours this week... Next time I'll outsource some of it to India....

[DREWjoseph82]

This might have been mentioned (or seem immature, but whatever) but when I was looking at the names of the "ducks" shots, I totally thought the ex3 photo was labeled "duck sex 3" instead of "ducks ex3" haha.

...yeah.

[Justyn]

her's the 720p hd version. Please download instead of streaming.


http://www.electriccowtheater.com/NWC/150HD.mov

[FiddlerMD]

it looks like the 150 has the most artificial sharpening applied (you can really see it in the stained glass shot).. Considering people are still saying it's pretty soft on resolution/focus, is it just gonna be really bad once you dial down the sharpening?

[booggerg2]

150 grabs look horrible.

Compared to the A1 and EX3 the 150 looks like up-rezzed video. The most obvious is in the details of the grass. The A1 and EX3 show much finer detail in the grass than the 150...


EDIT: I just read that the OP shot each camera in stock setting. Okay, now this test is entirely useless to me. It is basically a test of the image quality of the 3 cameras at their stock, out of the box setting.

[BrianMurphy]

I normally don't comment on threads like this for the reason I am about to give: We are all sitting looking at a very wide variety of monitors as we "evaluate" the footage. Mine a MacBook Pro 17 buddy in Texas a Dell 23 and friend in Sydney a Samsung 19. You get the point. So I find it difficult to relate to detail specific comments regarding footage. Certainly overall look and such can be appreciated from Vimeo footage and QT downloads but ....

And let me also add "Damn nice work Justyn!"
Brian

[booggerg2]

Brian: the type of monitor we're using has little relevance when we're not making absolute judgement on the example from the camera but rather making assessment RELATIVE to samples from the other cameras which are presented to us simultaneously.

[BobDiaz]

One problem with computer images is that many forget to take into account the difference between the viewing distance for a 50" or 60" HDTV vs. the viewing distance for your computer monitor.

In the case of a 50" or 60" HDTV, the typical viewing distance is around 9 feet. However, on you computer monitor, you are likely to be around 1.5 to 2 feet from the screen. This is like sitting about 4 or 5 feet from your 50" or 60" HDTV.

To scale everything to the same effect as a 50" or 60" HDTV at 9 feet, be sure to move around 3 to 4 feet from your computer monitor.

Let me also add, that still photos are helpful, but they lack the dynamic effect that we see from a moving video. When I freeze a video, some artifacts appear that do not appear in a moving video.


Bob Diaz

[David Saraceno]

Brian: the type of monitor we're using has little relevance when we're not making absolute judgement on the example from the camera but rather making assessment RELATIVE to samples from the other cameras which are presented to us simultaneously.

In reading through your posts, it seems that you are consistently critical of the HMC150.

Why not go with A1 and EX3?

I don't believe you are going to locate good comparisons on line versus renting the cams and shooting the identical scene with each.

[booggerg2]

I like the HMC and I want to like it. However, I've seen two screen shot comparisons now where the resolution of the image from the HMC does not stack up to the A1.

People keeps saying the best comparison is done with raw footage played back on a proper HD screen. I don't disagree with this , but I also feel a meaningful comparison can be done with the results from the different cameras presented in identical fashion to the reader such as it was for this comparison. With respect to this comparison, I don't see how ANYONE can discount the very obvious lower resolution from the HMC screen caps.

[Retrospective]

Thanks for the grabs!

The HMC150 screen grabs looks blurry and the compression is way too much compared to the A1 and EX1(of course). Maybe the footage posted is not in PH mode?

I hope someone can post raw footage of both A1 and HMC150 of the same footage. The grabs are somewhat of a turn off into buying the HMC150 :(

[BrianMurphy]

Like I said. We are all looking at stuff on different monitors. That we are looking at content simultaneously seemed pretty obvious to me, but thanks for pointing that out.
The HMC150 just came out and people are only beginning to work with it and if you visit the marketplace[ booggerg2 you will see many are either selling their current camera and investing in an HMC150. No doubt we will see stunning examples in the months ahead. What I find the most valuable is the opinions of those who were using HVX200's -EX1's and A1's etc and now have an HMC150.
When one factors in the countless compression and other possibilities that posted content may have encountered on its way to your monitor I think "evaluation" should be taken with a grain of salt. The opinion of a guy like Justyn who is shooting with his HMC150 and selling his HVX 200 are what shaped my decision to buy the camera.
Cheers
Brian

[Justyn]

Brian... Thanks so much for the nice fine words. YES indeed. I'm selling my hvx and going to buy another computer and another 150. I simply love what it offers and at this price. I don't have too much tied up in this. I'm willing to let the wife borrow it... or a friend rent it or whatever.. But it still delivers and its producing stunning video.

look at Evro's HMC 150 wedding footage and tell me that's not badass looking? He might have gotten 10-15 grand for a job like that and no one is going to give a crap that it was or wasn't shot with an EX1. Personlly you put 10 people in a room and show them both and what do you think you'll get? Most people don't see the little details and aren't looking so critically.


This camera kills in low light and for a hundred bucks I can shoot about 10 hours of footage on little cheap and highly available media. Cheap and reliable!!!

[zar8752]

When i look for a camera there are a few things I look for first.

1. Because I'm a teenager and $7.00 an hour is not the best pay in the world. I want an inexpensive camera. So that takes care of the EX3.

And

2. Progressive HD. I work with special effects and when working with cinema verite and motion tracking together, interlaced frames will screw up the tracker in a shakey scene. Interlaced was made a long time ago to keep film from "rolling" or something like that. Progressive is the way to go.

So I'm sold on the HMC 150 and I plan to buy it in a few months. The fact that it uses SD cards is nice. AVCHD I know, but I think my computer can handle it, and I can always convert to DVCPROHD with a freee converter on Panasonics website.

I am debating still between the A1 and HMC150, because the A1 seems to have better quality, but the solid state and progrssive scan has really sold me.

[Bram1982]

Anyone care to explain what camera is meant by the "A1" ??? The Canon XH-A1? But that's 1440x1080 with a pixel aspect ratio, so screengrabs in 1920x1080 dont make sense...

[PDR]

Anyone care to explain what camera is meant by the "A1" ??? The Canon XH-A1? But that's 1440x1080 with a pixel aspect ratio, so screengrabs in 1920x1080 dont make sense...


It depends what method is used to take screenshots.

If the OP was taking screenshots through a media player, the display aspect ratio would be 16/9 (it would be "stretched" to 1920x1080, since the PAR is 1.333 for HDV). If taking screenshots as 1:1 pixels without the PAR correction, it would be 1440x1080

[scottwilson]

i like all 3 cameras. lately ive really started to like the 150 though. It puts out a nice image. For the price i dont think you can go wrong with either the a1 or the 150.

with the right tweaking the a1 puts out stunning footage that still blows me away to this day. without the tweaking the a1 is flat but thats just my opinion.