How is everyone liking it?

[Fidel210]

i went down to B and H the other day and asked some of the floor people who always know alot about cameras what their opinion was about the HMC150, and it seemed none of them were relly impressed or liked it. I dont know if it is that they havnt used it, because they dont have the actual camera on the floor yet, but they said that AVCHD is a bad format and SDHC is not regaurded as a professional format to record on. I went to BandH hoping to walk out with the HMC150, but afterwords i had some doubts. They just said if you need an HD camera to get the HVX/HPX or go with an HDV camera like the canon XHA1.

So can anybody who has the camera talk about it and review it in a profesional way to clear things up? I am really considering buying this camera and would appreciate if people could talk about it a bit.

[Hidef1080]

I don't know what to tell you outside of I like it.
The images are better than my HDV camera.
I see a few people putting AVCHD down as nothing more than a purely consumer format but for the most part they are talking about true consumer 1 chip or small chip lower bitrate cameras.


Rent one before you buy it and see if it's what you want.


I do find it funny when people talk about how great HDV is when a few years ago I heard the same things about HDV that people saying about AVCHD.


But who knows... Only time well tell but there seems to be much support for AVCHD.

[trez]

They just said if you need an HD camera to get the HVX/HPX or go with an HDV camera like the canon XHA1.

Did you ask 'why?' ;)
Those guy don't know what they're talking about - one proof is that they recommend HDV as an alternative to the AVCHD. The only advantage of HDV over AVCHD I can think of is the fact that more NLEs support it natively. AVCHD is better in every other respect - resolution, macroblocking - all at the similar bitrate. And recording to cheap SD cards is a great feature.
Sure you can go with DVCPRO HD - it is usually better in terms of image quality (but not always!) . It is much more expensive also. The differences have been discussed on this forum hundreds of times.
Did the guys at B&H ask what your budget was (and was going to be in the future)? And what were you gonna use your camera for? Without knowing answers to these questions how could their say what's better for you?

I ordered my HMC151 (yes - european, 50/60 switchable version). For me (I mostly do music videos and some feature work) it is better choice than HPX170 for the following simple reasons:
- cheaper camera
- great at 720p24p (even better than HPX170 due to increased raster size - the AVCHD codec bitrate is more than sufficient in this mode)
- recording to SD cards (I can't afford multiple P2 cards and don't want to capture footage to my laptop every 30 minutes or so)
- if I need ultimate quality (greenscreen shooting in the studio) I can always use the HDMI output and capture uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2 to my desktop

I don't need 1080. I can live with the limited overcrancking possibilities. I don't need HD SDI. I am not afraid of long-GOP codec as long as it has sufficient bitrate and looks great. For me this is an excellent camera. If one day I come to conclusion that I need (portable) 1080 at full raster size and best possible quality I will get an external disk recorder (like the upcoming CineForm) that has HDMI input and is capable of capturing footage at the quality DVCPRO HD can only dream about.

[mcsmooth]

In terms of quality, the codec holds out really well. Check out the sample clips and see for yourself. The only validity in what the salesperson was saying about the codec is that you wont find many professionals editing in the AVCHD format at this time, and NLE support is a bit limited right now. The same went for HDV when it was released, so it is just a matter of time. Transcoding to another format is a good solution that works today.

Try and see what you can do with the sample files and judge for yourself. If anything plays back "choppy", it is probably just an issue with your computer. My old pc has trouble playing anything natively over 720p30, but playing back off the camera or a real player... I like!

[Thomas Lew]

I love everything about it except for some of the avchd difficulties right now. But like everybody else said, it's just a matter of time before avchd is more commonly accepted

[3rdfloorfilms]

The people on the camera floor aren't always as knowledgble as they should be. Many times while there, I've corrected info they've given to a customer(When he couldn't hear me of course), while waiting to order something. B and H is great, but like a lot of media places(Guitar stores, etc.)there are going to be people that aren't as enthusiastic with selling as they are with using. I would talk to the people using the camera in the field. There have been a couple of people here that said they were selling their HVX200 and getting an HMC-150. That's a pretty good endorsement.

[kurtmo]

I was afraid of editing AVCHD until I downloaded some clips and tried editing them. The quality is suppurb for what I intend to use it for. The codec is solid. Editing for me has been easy; just drop it on my Vegas timeline and go. I also wanted to use the camfor keying. It is full raster720p and 1080p which seems to offset the lower color space. ie. keying is a breeze!

[MikeGunter]

Hi,

HDV came along not because the MPEG2 transport stream was the best CODEC, but because it was widely available in use in satellite transmission.

AVC-HD is superior in nearly every aspect, especially the PH flavor, which I'm trying to wrap my head around.

I'm sold on AVCHD for a lot of reasons. I'll be getting the HMC150 for sure. When is the only question.

[manglerBMX]

i'm selling my hvx for the 150. haven't gotten my hands on one yet, but i've played with a 170 and that felt good. i've downloaded people raw clips from the 150 and i've been very impressed.

[Thomas Lew]

Hi,
I'll be getting the HMC150 for sure. When is the only question.

Now? =p

[Boomerang]

The big red flag is that they did not discuss your needs. I purchase most of my gear from B&H so I am not being negative. Panasonic has worked hard to target the 150,170 and HVX to what your needs are.

Aside from AVCHD being a newer format for NLEs the camera is great. I worked with the HVX for a long time and was blown away by the camera and P2 workflow. It still is just not cost effective for me. So shooting to SD is a blessing. I have now 20x 16 gig cards.... I could never afford that kind of recording time with P2.

So your best bet is to research and ask questions just like you did in this thread from people who actually own these camera.

[MikeGunter]

Now? =p
:-Happy(DBG):

If only....


It always comes down to COH. LWTBW. MEM.

(Cash on hand. Living with the beautiful wife. Making ends meet.)

Actually, there's a few odds and ends - I have a HVX200, and I don't know if I should keep it or get a HPX170 (which I had in mind to do) and an HMC150 or or an HMC150, or sell the HVX200 and just get the HMC150 and have cash left over - heresy!

I tend to think that I might just keep the HVX200, but like the idea of going to the HPX170 - better features, lower light capability, but no tape (not a bad thing)...

We don't have immediate needs, so I do have the luxury of shopping around.

What I definitely like about the HMC150 is the low-cost media. Not ponying up for P2 costs is great.

Looking at what you've posted and Darren and others, I think the camera would do nearly all of the work I do.

I'm quite tempted to pull the trigger.

[simplyfemales]

I am 1000% happy with my HMC150. I was bouncing between the 150 and 170 and the cost savings were a huge factor. P2 workflow, as amazing as it is, can't hold a candle to owning 10 16gb SDHC cards for the price of one 16GB P2 card.

As far as quality and the rest of what goes along with those arguments, It's a great camera and does exactly what I need it to. If/when I need to step up, the 170 looks like my logical choice unless of course v2 or something else has replaced it by then.

Big endorsement for the 150 here! I am very happy to be an owner.

[ilauzirika]

I've had it for 4 days and I'm already in love. Today I had my first shooting with it....some interview with and 84 year old woman that cures people using medicinal plants and that stuff.
The camera worked like a champ and none frames were dropped (pun intended).
Imagewise, great image right out of camera, or you could also get a less in camera corrected image to alter it in post.

all in all great camera for my needs.

[Briody]

I've had my HMC150 since Friday and I am VERY pleased.

I've owned 3 DVX100's for many years (since they were introduced). I've been looking at HD cams for several months. The HVX is great but the P2 cards are so expensive.

I've always loved the image quality of the DVX100. It's got a certain 'look' that set it apart from the competitors. The HMC150 gives me that same look in an HD camera.

I shot some closeups of my dog yesterday. She's a large furry Newfoundland. I pulled a still from the footage and it was amazing. The fur detail was outstanding. I am very happy with the HMC150

[booggerg2]

Is the flip out LCD better than the HVX200? Easy to focus with it? I assume there's a peaking mode?

Also since there's no tape mechanism is the REC run time better than the DVX when using similar sized battery?

[Bucknfl]

I think Panasonic is actually downplaying the great quality of this camera. I haven't done any side by side comparisons of a 200a, 170, and 150, but I'm guessing that the quality will look at least as good and would match nicely. The only thing your giving up with the 150 is variable frame rates. The plus is your not having to deal with expensive p2 cards, and worrying about dumping cards to hardrives in the field. At the end of my shooting day I'm handing the card off to the producer.

[Mike Harvey]

...The only thing your giving up with the 150 is variable frame rates...

You're also giving up 4:2:2, Intraframe, and SDI outs. For some folks, that is a huge deal. I'm not one of those people, but for some those features are non-negotiable... especially the 4:2:2 and Intraframe.

[trez]

You're also giving up 4:2:2, Intraframe, and SDI outs. For some folks, that is a huge deal. I'm not one of those people, but for some those features are non-negotiable... especially the 4:2:2 and Intraframe.

True. These are important features for some users. HPX170 offers better audio as well.
4:2:2 - great for keying - on the other hand HMC150 offers increased raster size. I wonder if this can actually improve the image sharpness - the CCDs resolution is limited and even with most optimistic pixel shifting scenario the actual resolution is closer to 720 than 1080... I would love to see side by side comparison.
The lack of SDI and long-GOP codec can be an issue or not - depending on what you plan to use your camera for. But remember that you have HDMI out which, for budget users, is great thing - get the cheap Blackmagic card and you can record uncompressed 4:2:2 10-bit (I hope - can someone confirm?). You need fast drives, though.

[Mike Harvey]

Based on what others are saying, the 1080p isn't really sharper than 720p.

As for uncompressed through a BM card... I have one and if I remember correctly you can in fact record uncompressed with it. I've never done it myself, but I'll check this afternoon when I get home from work.

[Bucknfl]

The 150 may not have 4:2:2 but it keys very nicely.

[Ed Kishel]

as far as liking it, I certainly do.... but I am still quite dissapointed in the fact that its 1080 mode is pointless since it takes up more space on the card than, is more compressed than, and is no sharper than- its 720p mode.

Also, given that focus in HD is so much more critical- the 150's focus assist features are below average when compared to the assist functions in Sony and Canon models in this price range. If you have a big on-set monitor- its fine, but when using the camera's LCD Sony's peaking function is much more accurate.

Those are my main gripes- other than that, its got too many other great features to send it back :)

[ilauzirika]

as far as liking it, I certainly do.... but I am still quite dissapointed in the fact that its 1080 mode is pointless since it takes up more space on the card than, is more compressed than, and is no sharper than- its 720p mode.



Really, I thought that the 720p and 1080 modes took up the same space. I'll have to check.

[mcsmooth]

The 1080 mode isn't a bad thing if it isn't much better, it is just another option. I don't think someone has done a direct test yet, but that mode may key better. What I found upsetting is that the lower quality modes are only 1080i. It would have been nice if 720p (or even 1080p) was an option at these modes. It really isn't that big of a deal, the highest quality files are still smaller than DV, but would have been nice to be able to set up the camera in a static spot to record 720p24 all day for events or timelapse.

Edweirdo, your review was pretty much right on, btw.

[mcsmooth]

Really, I thought that the 720p and 1080 modes took up the same space. I'll have to check.
The bitrate is determined by the quality of the mode. At PH, yes they take up the same space. So if you compare 1080p24 and 720p24 in the same bandwidth, the 720 will have less compression artifacts. 1080 still does really well, just keep in mind that 720 will hold up better if there is a lot of motion.

[ullanta]

The 1080 mode isn't a bad thing if it isn't much better, it is just another option. I don't think someone has done a direct test yet, but that mode may key better. What I found upsetting is that the lower quality modes are only 1080i. It would have been nice if 720p (or even 1080p) was an option at these modes. It really isn't that big of a deal, the highest quality files are still smaller than DV, but would have been nice to be able to set up the camera in a static spot to record 720p24 all day for events or timelapse.

Edweirdo, your review was pretty much right on, btw.

Hopefully (PLEASE!) someone will test a slow-shutter (1/30) on the lower-quality modes to see how good a "pseudo-progressive" result can be obtained... If the compression is smart enough, this could be a very useful solution...

[trez]

The only thing your giving up with the 150 is variable frame rates.

With european version (HMC151) it is not so bad - it shoots at 60p, 50p, 30p, 25p and, of course, 24p - this will do in most situations, I think.

[ilauzirika]

I would love to see a slow motion comparison test, in one side the hmc and in the other the hpx.

[mcsmooth]

Hopefully (PLEASE!) someone will test a slow-shutter (1/30) on the lower-quality modes to see how good a "pseudo-progressive" result can be obtained... If the compression is smart enough, this could be a very useful solution...
Ahhh, good idea. I don't have samples to post, but tried some quick tests. From what I have observed, it could give you passable results given the right conditions, but the codec can't really be smart about it since it just works with whatever is fed to it. So setting 60i to 1/15 and then reviewing the footage frame by frame, there is a slight difference from 2 adjacent frames (4 fields) that tells me you are not encoding less fields/frames. It may still be a little bit better since there is less movement between every frame to encode. On the other hand, it certainly does give a pseudo progressive frame. You just have to be sure your viewer and editor do a proper weave to assemble the frames the right way.

Keep in mind that 1/30 isn't exactly an ideal shutter speed and has quite a bit of blur (1/15 has twice as much). This would not be as much of an issue with low motion, and may actually be ideal in low light conditions and for time lapse.

I haven't done too much with anything below PH, but even the lowest setting (HE) may work if the camera is fixed on a tripod and there is not much motion. Camera in hand with any motion will start to show noticeable artifacts when examining frame by frame, but might still work for some applications, especially if downrezing to SD. I'm thinking HG (13Mbs) mode at 1/30 or 1/15 might be a good compromise for time lapse... will have to try. When 64 and 128GB cards are available, we can let these things run all day in PH.

[ullanta]

Thanks for trying it out! I'd love to see some footage if anyone has a chance to post some. I do a lot of shooting in 30p with a 1/36 shutter on the HVX for live events... I like the look, and the low-light benefits; it also seems to play more smoothly on my clients' interlaced TVs than higher shutter speeds do. I wonder how close the slow shutter on the HMC would be to that...

[ilauzirika]

Wow, today I did some greenscreen keys and they were truly easy!!! I can't even imagine how easy would it be if the avchd codec was 4:2:2!!!!!

[MikeGunter]

Hi Iñaki,

If you can share a grab of the greenscreen, that would be great!

I'm sold on the HMC150, but I don't know when the 'when' will be. I'm supposed to go to do some teaching that entails this camera and the HPX170 - mostly post production work flow, but we do want to try them in the field on the cold-weather track.

I'd like to take my 150 with me, too.

You're using DVCPro as the key in Premiere?

[ilauzirika]

yep, I transcode it to dvcpro hd then import it to premiere, export to tga seq and key in after effect (keylight).
Coming from a mini dv past......keying was such a pain!

here you have a .tif grab, you can play with it.

http://www.adrive.com/public/3dc78789002167d9ebf9dc7be3a9a2d0ec86d2f4180412cd8b 09dd71c74a4949.html

[MikeGunter]

Hey Iñak,

Thanks, downloading now.

[ullanta]

Not a lot of time in so far; liking it a lot so far... but one DISLIKE is the menu system. Somehow seems much more cheesy and consumer-y than that of the DVX/HVX; also, requires a lot more scrolling since fewer menu options come up on tyhe screen at once. The "background" of the text hides a lot more of the image when in the menus, too... making it harder to compare settings.

It does seem really light and plastick-y. It's NOT... very solid. But coming from the HVX, it's a drastic difference. Like a billiard ball and a wiffle ball. If you want to pick a fight in a bar, choose an HMC owner, not an HVX owner!

[johndimsum]

I ordered my HMC151 (yes - european, 50/60 switchable version).

Trez, where did you order your 151? Did they deliver to you internationally? I'm having difficulty finding a trusted 151 retailer.