Hpx300 rumors

[Lez]

I've heard on the grapevine that a HPX300 is due in February..

1/2" chips and semi shoulder mount with removable lens...

Cheers

[thekreative]

that's more like it!

[DChang]

So you have the HPX500 which is around $10,000.
Also you have the HPX170 which is around $5,200.
And the HXV200A around $5,300.

So what price point would you figure the supposed HPX300 would be at? And what what point is it too close and starts eating away at the other models?

Do you have a link of some sort? I hate feeding into rumor talk but at least the new MBPs and Scarlet have more to go on than the "grapevine".

[Lez]

I guess on your price points the HPX300 would come in at 7.5k...

[mikkowilson]

You only get the 500 body for $10k. A lens, power, etc, so you can shoot is more.


Normally Panasonic announces their cameras well before they ship. I wouldn't expect to hear anything from them untill around NAB.

- Mikko

[Mattykins]

You sure you didn't misplace a zero? Nothing is coming up online. There is however an HPX3000. But that is no where near 7.5k.

[Lez]

No it would not be online yet... I believe it will be similar to the JVC style cam's...

Supposedly priced between the HPX170 and the 500...

[mikkowilson]

If you are going to go about throwing rumors like this, you are really going to need to cite your source.


- Mikko

[Spartacus]

Sounds reasonable, a 300 would rival the EX3. And 1/2" chips would fit perfectly between the 200 and 500.
Still waiting for the big bang from Canon though...

[Lez]

Lets see if Jan from Panasonic can give us any news???

[Andrew McMillan]

That sounds awesome.

[David Saraceno]

The "grapevine?"

Where does one subscribe to the grapevine?

[Joe Lawry]

Whats weird is that i've been told that panasonic do have something in the works with possible info around early 09.. it came up during a conversation about AVC-Intra..

but then again, it might of just been a rep messing with me. But their words were wait and see.

[Lez]

I was looking at upgrading to the 170 with a possible jump to the 500.. when I heard that there is going to be something in between early next year...

[David Jimerson]

If this is true, the "grapevine" would be someone violating an NDA. If it isn't true, it's a grapevine with a rotted root, so it doesn't matter.

[Lez]

If this is true, the "grapevine" would be someone violating an NDA. If it isn't true, it's a grapevine with a rotted root, so it doesn't matter.

What ever.. I'm not bound by any confidentiality clause...

Cheers

[David Jimerson]

No, but anyone who would know for sure about this camera would be.

[Lez]

Yeah I guess so... but maybe it's due for some announcement shortly...

I'm looking into replacing my 200 with a 170 but I'm kinda unhappy with the lack of depth in the lens... hence the 500...

But if there's something on the horizon... I'd be happy to wait...

Cheers

[Barry_Green]

This would be most surprising. Panasonic has gone on record as hating 1/2" chips. And they don't do "semi-shoulder-mount" either, even the little HMC70 actually sits on your shoulder.

With the HMC150 and HPX170 just hitting store shelves a few days ago, it would also seem way premature to talk about another model coming out.

[mrbrycel]

Interchangeable lenses sound great. But Panasonic or canon should really make a camera with a built in 35mm lens adapter inside the body. I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet with the amount of people that use adapters.

[weixiang623]

i think the "grapevine" is about the already-released sony ex3...

[Lez]

I'd like to see them add some sort of internal hard drive.. along with P2...

[puredrifting]

Oh jeez, and the speculation begins again...

Dan

[FilmBoy77]

Interchangeable lenses sound great. But Panasonic or canon should really make a camera with a built in 35mm lens adapter inside the body. I'm surprised it hasn't been done yet with the amount of people that use adapters.


i've said this a long time ago....it must be extremely complicated to make or extremely expensive or something because it seems like something that should've been done not too long after the hvx came out and when adapters started getting more popular.

[Deaniweenie]

I did a search on google and came up with the HPX300. It's a clip on you tube but it's a typo and the film is about the HPX3000.

I hope the rumor is true, sounds very exciting.

Weenie.

[typo]

I have some info about the new model, the AG-HPX301:

1/3" 1920 x 1080 3 MOS
AVC-I High Picture Quality
Variable Frame Rate
Light Weight (5.9KG)

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I have some info about the new model, the AG-HPX301:

1/3" 1920 x 1080 3 MOS
AVC-I High Picture Quality
Variable Frame Rate
Light Weight (5.9KG)

Eh...source? Pics? I want more please...Price?

[LuckyStudio 13]

I have some info about the new model, the AG-HPX301:

1/3" 1920 x 1080 3 MOS
AVC-I High Picture Quality
Variable Frame Rate
Light Weight (5.9KG)


Not gonna happen my friend.

[Dino]

I've heard from a reliable source that there will be a shoulder type camera with AVC Intra in the HPX500 price range. Don't know about the sensor size or type.

[Ted Spencer]

I
Light Weight (5.9KG)

That's 13 pounds. Not exactly what I'd call a "light" camera...

[David Saraceno]

I have some info about the new model, the AG-HPX301:

1/3" 1920 x 1080 3 MOS
AVC-I High Picture Quality
Variable Frame Rate
Light Weight (5.9KG)

Pretty good first post.

thanks

[Dino]

That's 13 pounds. Not exactly what I'd call a "light" camera...

This fits what my source told me about form factor, but a 1/3" chip set in a camera that large seems odd.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Its probably going to be a 2/3" hpx500 replacement, since everything else in their shoulder mount series are AVC Intra capable besides the hpx500. This means that you have to spend $$$$ on 2/3" lenses and also means that you need a $$$$ and currently "doesnt exists" b4 relay in order to get that 35mm dof. That this point, you might as well wait for the new Red cams.

Furthermore, I cannot imagine a 13 lbs hvx200 form factor camcorder, unless you want to break your wrist or if you want to use the camera as a workout dumbell.

[FilmBoy77]

whens the release anticipated for those new RED cams and how much are they supposed to cost? i heard something about an affordable version?

[David Saraceno]

If you are referring to Scarlet, it starts at about $2400, and goes ten times that amount with accessories.

At least the last time I looked.

[LuckyStudio 13]

I would *guess* 22k for a "working" Scarlet S35 without any lens. The cheapest decent Cine 2/3" lens starts at about $24k and you only get a S16mm DOF. While you can buy less than $300 Nikon 50mm f1.4 and have almost no breathing.

[Lez]

Not gonna happen my friend.

NEVER SAY NEVER... will check my source this week....

I reckon Panny needs to step up to the plate as Sony is taking a big chunk of the business right now at our end of the scale...

[David Saraceno]

NEVER SAY NEVER... will check my source this week....

I reckon Panny needs to step up to the plate as Sony is taking a big chunk of the business right now at our end of the scale...

What figures to have on sales between Sony and Panasonic?

I couldn't find anything, and I don't remember seeing anything in the last three years.

[monday1313]

depends what your idea of a working scarlet is. If they want 7k for the s35 body and you price out the accesories that already exist in their store. it's about 12.5k without lenses...that's bare minimum that i can get by with to start shooting...but that's me...

[LuckyStudio 13]

depends what your idea of a working scarlet is. If they want 7k for the s35 body and you price out the accesories that already exist in their store. it's about 12.5k without lenses...that's bare minimum that i can get by with to start shooting...but that's me...


Your $7500 doesnt even buy you the button to turn the Red sensor ON.

[typo]

It is happening, as a matter of fact.

It will be 1/3", interchangeable lens, will come with Fujinon XT17x4.5 as standard.

I guess they're trying to come up with a new niche. Hope MOS will do, and won't have the rolling shutter issue as Sony CMOS does.

[Green Hornet]

I would prefer a smaller camera instead of something larger.
Smaller and less expensive media, with full raster. for now, that is all I want.

It's like VCR's..yeah my grandfather had one that was 20 pounds, now the last one was about 2 pounds, and since then replaced by a dvd or bluray... Smaller lighter, and better.

I can see shoulder mounts having removable lenses, but small cameras are better served as having one lens to do closeup and very wide shots.

I would love to buy another panasonic camera, but the way it looks, they need to play catch up quick.

With the Canon 5d mark II still camera that can shoot full 35mm frame video,
I am sure that technology will dump into the video cameras real soon.

Scarlet will be here soon,

EX1 is her now...

Panasonic? Yeah the HMC150 is really good in the $3,000 segment, but what about
between $3,000 to $6,000...they got nothin'

[Barry_Green]

Typo, you're making some bold claims there. You've made exactly two posts on DVXUser, both of 'em claiming things that we haven't heard or read about anywhere on the web. Care to reveal your source?

[Barry_Green]

Panasonic? Yeah the HMC150 is really good in the $3,000 segment, but what about
between $3,000 to $6,000...they got nothin'
"nothin'" but the best-selling, most popular, most widely-used, most-adopted HD camcorders in the business. Of course, if that's "nothin'" to you, I guess there's nothing to be said.

[David Saraceno]

I guess they're trying to come up with a new niche. Hope MOS will do, and won't have the rolling shutter issue as Sony CMOS does.

Who would "they" be?

Don't know where your information is coming from, but as they say at the racetrack, "this is a horse that won't run."

Without some independent verification of where you are deriving all these specifics, and given that they arise in your first two posts, you have pretty long odds.

Let us know

[puredrifting]

Panasonic? Yeah the HMC150 is really good in the $3,000 segment, but what about
between $3,000 to $6,000...they got nothin'

Guess I have been making a pretty decent living since 2006 with nothing then :-)

Dan

[n8ture]

Can I crash at one of your places? Cause my wife is gonna be PISSSED when she finds out we spent all that money on nothing!

[Dino]

A 1/3" chip set in a 13lb. camera body would be the worst or both worlds all in one inconvenient package.

Since we're talking horse racing, my bet is for an HPX500 replacement with the same or similar sensors, form factor with the addition of AVC Intra releasing prior to NAB.

I would bet against CMOS, 1/3" chips of any kind and a detachable lens for 1/3" chips(what would the point be?).

Until Typo reveals his or her source, there is no credibility.

[alexdias]

I'm 100% with Jeff on this one. We either have reliable info or let's not waist our time with rumors.

No interest in another 1/3" chip camera, but I'll be carefully looking at the HPX500 replacement.
Of course, with the average presentation/release date chasm it will be close to Scarlet and all, so the game will be quite different by then.

Alex

[Dino]

I
No interest in another 1/3" chip camera, but I'll be carefully looking at the HPX500 replacement.
Of course, with the average presentation/release date chasm it will be close to Scarlet and all, so the game will be quite different by then.

Alex

Alex,

I'm pretty sure you'll be seeing something from Panasonic by February.

[mrbrycel]

I know its been said 3 times already, but what would be the point of interchangeable lenses on a 1/3" sensor camera? that would make no sense, and I don't believe Panasonic would do that.

And I really hope they stick with CCD's.

[Barry_Green]

I know its been said 3 times already, but what would be the point of interchangeable lenses on a 1/3" sensor camera? that would make no sense, and I don't believe Panasonic would do that.
JVC has been selling an interchangeable-lens 1/3" HDV camera for about four years now. In fact, that's pretty much all they make anymore in their pro line.

Panasonic used to offer an interchangeable-lens 1/3" camera as well, back in the DVCPRO days. I believe it even used the same lens mount.

Canon has been offering an interchangeable-lens 1/3" camera for about nine years, starting with the original XL1, then XL1s, then XL2, then XLH1, and now they offer two, the XLH1s and the XLH1a.

Sony currently offers at least two interchangeable-lens 1/3" units, the HVR-S270U and the HVR-Z7U.

So obviously interchangeable-lens at 1/3" isn't really a problem, nor would it be bizarre. It seems like "everyone's doing it" so I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic did the same.


And I really hope they stick with CCD's.
As for CCD, it's not possible to do a 1920x1080 CCD at anything smaller than 2/3". So if there *is* an HPX300, and if it *is* 1920x1080, and if it *is* CCD, then that will pretty much guarantee that it's 2/3". And priced accordingly. An HPX500 competitor/replacement perhaps; but the smaller proposed model number would imply something different.

It's probably possible to do 1920x1080 on 1/3" on CMOS (or, whatever it is that Panasonic has developed that they call "3MOS" on their consumer lineup; haven't figured out exactly what that's all about.) So if there's an HPX300 and it's 1920x1080 and 1/3", then that pretty much guarantees that it'll be CMOS or 3MOS or some variation thereof.

If it's 1/3" CCD, that's gonna mean spatial offset and low pixel count. If it's 2/3" CCD, that's going to mean a high price tag. If it's 1/3" and CMOS, presumably a lower price tag would apply.

[Dino]

Panasonic used to offer an interchangeable-lens 1/3" camera as well, back in the DVCPRO days. I believe it even used the same lens mount.

So obviously interchangeable-lens at 1/3" isn't really a problem, nor would it be bizarre. It seems like "everyone's doing it" so I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic did the same.

If it's 1/3" CCD, that's gonna mean spatial offset and low pixel count. If it's 2/3" CCD, that's going to mean a high price tag. If it's 1/3" and CMOS, presumably a lower price tag would apply.

Barry,

I'm pretty sure this new camera is not a palmcorder form factor, so a 1/3" sensor of whatever type in a full size shoulder mount camera doesn't make sense.

I don't see Panasonic going 1/2" because Sony did. Ditto CMOS. I see an HPX500, perhaps for less money, with AVC Intra. 2/3" CCD's, pixel shifted, 10 bit recording, hopefully a better viewfinder.

We will know in a couple of months.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I would love something like the HPX-170 but with something like a standard Nikon lens mount. I'd like to put an end to the whole 35 adapter nonsense. I know they work, I use one, you use one, but cmon seriously...they are a pain in the a$$.

AVC Intra would be a plus too.

[Huy Vu]

I would love something like the HPX-170 but with something like a standard Nikon lens mount. I'd like to put an end to the whole 35 adapter nonsense. I know they work, I use one, you use one, but cmon seriously...they are a pain in the a$$.


But then you would have to have 35mm sensor, and that puts it in another class all together. Nikon mount alone wouldn't give you the FOV.

[mrbrycel]

I would love something like the HPX-170 but with something like a standard Nikon lens mount. I'd like to put an end to the whole 35 adapter nonsense. I know they work, I use one, you use one, but cmon seriously...they are a pain in the a$$.

AVC Intra would be a plus too.

Yeah that would be great, but a 1/3" sensor is = to about an 8mm frame, and a 2/3" = to about a 16mm frame. The sensor would have to be over an inch to be used with Nikon lenses.

Red is coming out with a camera in 09 that has a full frame sensor and Nikon mount, but then again its CMOS, and the brain itself will be $7,000.

[BerkeleyBob]

All the cameras Barry mentioned are shoulder mount 1/3" HD cameras, so they must make sense to those who've bought and are using them. And the fact that both Fujinon and Canon make several 1/3" HD lenses, including $9K wide angles means 1/3" HD interchangeables make sense to them as well. One of the major complaints owners have about the HPX500 is that 2/3" glass costs more than the camera. And a lot of 500 users are trying to get by using SD lenses instead . Where's the sense in that? If you can build a 1/3" P2 camera that takes advantage of Canon and Fujinon's existing range of 1/3" HD glass selling at half the cost of their 2/3" lenses, why not? Especially if that camera features AVC Intra and costs less than the HPX500 which doesn't have that feature? Another thing, this thread has been active for two months now and not a word of denial by Jan which seems curious. She's typically not shy about denouncing rumors and correcting misinformation. Of course, if there is a HPX300 on the drawing board her nda would preclude her from commenting about it even if some of the disclosed facts are wrong. Jan, would you care to comment?

[typo]

My source is from Panasonic directly. This information is still not for public.

Actually, I too was hoping they'd take a different route and avoid using MOS for their pro line. We'll just have to wait and see.

[AwakenedFilms]

Well typo, if you were looking to get a lot of replies with your first, second and third posts, I think you succeeded.

Rather than join speculation, I'd rather wait and see what happens next spring.


Jason

[Stevet]

Red is coming out with a camera in 09 that has a full frame sensor and Nikon mount, but then again its CMOS, and the brain itself will be $7,000.

Yes, but it's their new CMOS sensor which is a lot faster. The numbers will match the speed of a rolling shutter on a film camera.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Moviecam_schematic_animation.gif

[typo]

Actually, I was very much eager to share this exciting information with the rest of you. I'm always looking forward to advancements in the industry and care for technology moving forward.

Right now, I'm interested in differences between MOS, CMOS and what can we expect from this camera.

[Dino]

And the fact that both Fujinon and Canon make several 1/3" HD lenses, including $9K wide angles means 1/3" HD interchangeables make sense to them as well. One of the major complaints owners have about the HPX500 is that 2/3" glass costs more than the camera. And a lot of 500 users are trying to get by using SD lenses instead . Where's the sense in that? If you can build a 1/3" P2 camera that takes advantage of Canon and Fujinon's existing range of 1/3" HD glass selling at half the cost of their 2/3" lenses, why not?

I think using a top end SD series Fuji or Canon lens with the HPX500 makes a lot of sense. In fact, I think these lenses are better than the low end HD series lenses by Fuji and Canon--however the CAC circuit works well to hide the chromatic aberration issues.

Most of the good 1/3" lenses I see by Fuji and Canon are $6-13K, with most at $9K. This is no different from the HD glass used most often with the HPX500.

I would have zero interest in lugging around a 13 lb. camera with the depth offield of a 1/3" palmcorder, nor investing that amount of money in glass for a 1/3" camera.

It is clear that Panasonic needs to address the EX3, so an HPX300 makes sense, but not a 1/3" big heavy camera, IMO.

[Barry_Green]

I'm pretty sure this new camera is not a palmcorder form factor,
If it's 13 pounds, I hope it isn't a palmcorder! :)


so a 1/3" sensor of whatever type in a full size shoulder mount camera doesn't make sense.
Again, all those ones I mentioned are shoulder mount. The JVCs can't really be called full-size, because they're little tiny cameras, but they do fit on the shoulder and use a full ENG form factor. The XLH1 is sort of a shoulder-mount. The HVRS270, however, is pretty much full-size, full shoulder-mount, full ENG form factor. And it weighs 14 pounds. So, all I'm saying is, it's been done before, so would it be so unreasonable to see it be done again? Whether it makes sense or not is up to the individual buyer. I would imagine there are a ton of event shooters who'd love to show up with an $8,000-$10,000 camera (including lens!) that looks like a $35,000 camera; whether they'd want that camera to be 8-bit long-GOP HDV tape, or 10-bit I-frame AVC-Intra P2, would appear to be the main distinction between Sony's offering and typo's proposed HPX301.

Then again, there's already the HPX500 positioned there in the market, at full 2/3" and just $8,000 for the body. Throw a cheap SD lens on there and you're talking about 2/3" P2 vs. 1/3" HDV tape already... but, as BerkelyBob points out, the lens cost for an actual HD lens is as much as, or twice what the body is, so maybe there is a market for a 1/3" version.

I think broadcasters, especially individual stations, could eat up something like that. P2 slays tape for news work. And stations are getting cheaper all the time; they're already using HPX170s, and HVX200s by the truckloads, so a shoulder-mount cheap camera... maybe...

Anyway, as you say, we'll see in a few months since everyone who's claiming inside information seems to be saying it's only a few months away.

[Barry_Green]

My source is from Panasonic directly. This information is still not for public.
But we're the public... :evil:

Anyway, if your source is Panasonic itself, I imagine someone is going to get into quite a bit of trouble for "leaking" information. I guess we'll know in a few months how much, if any, of this is accurate. There's been no official word or even an official hint of any new product coming yet.


Actually, I too was hoping they'd take a different route and avoid using MOS for their pro line. We'll just have to wait and see.
Well, it's a matter of physical impossibility to get a 1920x1080 1/3" CCD. So if the specs you're saying are accurate, there's very few ways they could get there.

1) they could use interlaced chips, like Canon did, but even then they'd max out at 1440x1080; you can't get a full 1920x1080 out of 1/3" even in interlaced mode. And then you'd be giving up 60P. I can't fathom them doing that, no way.

2) they could use two chips glued together, like JVC did. But then you'd be subject to the dreaded Split Screen Effect, and I can't imagine they'd do that.

3) they could use lower-pixel-count spatial-offset chips. That's a proven technique, but on 1/3" chip size it wouldn't take full advantage of AVC-Intra's full-raster recording so - would it truly make sense? Why go Intra if you can't take advantage of its capabilities? The prefiltered nature of DVCPRO-HD lends itself better to the spatial offset technique, so if you'd said the new camera was DVCPRO-HD instead of AVC-Intra, I could certainly see this working. Take the HPX170's chipset, put it in a full-size body, and yeah, there's a market for that. But then there'd still be the whining from the pixel-count crowd who'd complain that Sony has full-raster chips so why doesn't Panasonic? And, besides, there's already the HPX500 which is a spatial-offset CCD camera in a full-size body, so why introduce another?

4) they could go CMOS (or 3MOS) as you say they have. Now there's the possibility to get a full-raster chipset which would take advantage of AVC-Intra's full-raster recording. But it's CMOS, which means all the same rolling-shutter complaints would come into play. There's no free lunch. Would they do that? We do know that they have "3MOS" technology on some of their consumer lineup, so we know they CAN do it. I guess it's all down to whether people demand full-raster pixels or not; if they do, then MOS is the only technology out right now which can deliver that, at the small chip size.

So, it leads me back to the prior conclusion: if what you've reported is accurate (a 1920x1080 1/3" chip) then it has to be CMOS (or some new breakthrough technology we've never heard of yet!) If it's 1/2" maybe it could be a CCD using interlace scanning, but I simply cannot imagine them giving up 60P so I think that's impossible. If it's 1920x1080 CCD, then it will have to be 2/3".

Fun times, I guess, but ... I dunno, doesn't it seem odd to be announcing (well, not announcing, rumoring) a new product right after the 170 is introduced, and having it be rumored to be introduced in February, two months BEFORE NAB?

[Stevet]

Nonetheless, It should be interesting!

I imagine if Panasonic did go CMOS (3MOS) discussion may get real interesting here ;)

Having said that, if they did go CMOS, I'm sure the refresh rate would be faster than Sony's current EX cams. Things only improve...

[Barry_Green]

I know more than a few have asked for EX1 resolution with Panasonic "mojo".

Still can't find anything out about "3MOS" and why they call it that instead of just saying "3 CMOS". I'm also curious about the pixel density, and as to whether you could really pull off a full 1920x1080 on a 1/3" CMOS. Their existing 3MOS camcorder lineup uses 610k pixels on a 1/6" chip size, though, so ... 1/3" is twice as wide and twice as tall, so yes, 1920x1080 seems possible in a 1/3" size.

[Barry_Green]

Ooooh, okay, now things are getting a little interesting... check out this link from a CEATAC blog on the official Panasonic Japan web site.
http://ex-blog.panasonic.co.jp/exhibition/en/2008/10/ceatec08_640.html

In there it says that their 3MOS is based on CMOS, but it's sort of a hybrid CCD/CMOS? Not sure exactly what it's saying, but what it says is:

Thus, Panasonic has developed the "νMAICOVICON." This is a new MOS sensor technology, that is based on the same structure as the CMOS sensor, yet offers the "high image quality" of the CCD and the "low power consumption" of the CMOS with 3 core technologies, the "new structural pixel technology" that expands the light reception area and enhances the sensitivity, "low-noise process technology" that reduces noise in images, and the "signal readout circuit technology" that realizes lower voltage and lower power consumption.

That's all promising. A 1920x1080 1/3" chip would certainly raise eyebrows for sensitivity and noise concerns, but if they've addressed those specifically, then...

Well, bah. It's all still just speculation.

[Barry_Green]

Okay, further... I figured "νMAICOVICON" must be some sort of japanese->to->english translation error, because seriously... who would name something that? But apparently they did, as I googled it and brought up a whole bunch of links. I guess it stands for "New Matsushita Advanced Image Converter for Vision Construction"

The translated Wiki entry for it says
νMaicovicon is, CCD and high sensitivity of the image sensor, (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/CCD%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A1%25E3%2583%25BC%2 5E3%2582%25B8%25E3%2582%25BB%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2 582%25B5&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhh4tZn3rsxzxcVk8WwtIMspxMxJ1Q) CMOS combines low (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A1%25E3%2583%25BC% 25E3%2582%25B8%25E3%2582%25BB%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3% 2582%25B5&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhgAoT4vHEWaFyIYZlXVk3vWbcfJAw) power consumption of the image sensor (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/CMOS%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A1%25E3%2583%25BC% 25E3%2582%25B8%25E3%2582%25BB%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3% 2582%25B5&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhgAoT4vHEWaFyIYZlXVk3vWbcfJAw) was developed as a new solid-state imaging device.
初搭載は2004年 (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%25E5%25B9%25B4&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhjRFedV2gRRYA-LY_VxbgZrIVdKDg)のN900iG (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/N900iG&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhitbDLJVyEbb9p0svRZyH_WeX4xhA) 。 First mounted in (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/N900iG&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhitbDLJVyEbb9p0svRZyH_WeX4xhA) 2004 (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%25E5%25B9%25B4&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhjRFedV2gRRYA-LY_VxbgZrIVdKDg) N900iG. (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/N900iG&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhitbDLJVyEbb9p0svRZyH_WeX4xhA)
現在ではパナソニック モバイルコミュニケーションズ (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25E3%2583%2591%25E3%2583%258A%25E3%2582%25BD%25E3 %2583%258B%25E3%2583%2583%25E3%2582%25AF_%25E3%258 3%25A2%25E3%2583%2590%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A B%25E3%2582%25B3%25E3%2583%259F%25E3%2583%25A5%25E 3%2583%258B%25E3%2582%25B1%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%258 2%25B7%25E3%2583%25A7%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2582%25B A&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhi8ntdEn4ft6xUgT4lEqnf3v58W6A) 、 NEC (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25E6%2597%25A5%25E6%259C%25AC%25E9%259B%25BB%25E6 %25B0%2597&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhhvTYfmzNgWfPYWsS15Wfky-8sl3w)製携帯電話 (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25E6%2590%25BA%25E5%25B8%25AF%25E9%259B%25BB%25E8 %25A9%25B1&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhivUORGq9ntcCmxtgPcgbsIRjSt7A)端末に採用されている。 Today MOBAIRUKOMYUNIKESHONZU Panasonic, NEC has (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25E3%2583%2591%25E3%2583%258A%25E3%2582%25BD%25E3 %2583%258B%25E3%2583%2583%25E3%2582%25AF_%25E3%258 3%25A2%25E3%2583%2590%25E3%2582%25A4%25E3%2583%25A B%25E3%2582%25B3%25E3%2583%259F%25E3%2583%25A5%25E 3%2583%258B%25E3%2582%25B1%25E3%2583%25BC%25E3%258 2%25B7%25E3%2583%25A7%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2582%25B A&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhi8ntdEn4ft6xUgT4lEqnf3v58W6A) been (http://74.125.47.100/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%25E6%2590%25BA%25E5%25B8%25AF%25E9%259B%25BB%25E8 %25A9%25B1&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25CE%25BDMAICOVICON%26hl%3Den%26sa%3 DG&usg=ALkJrhivUORGq9ntcCmxtgPcgbsIRjSt7A) adopted by mobile-phone.
しかしFOMA 905i/705iシリーズ以降の機種では搭載機種が皆無となっている。 But since the FOMA 905i/705i Series models are equipped with zero models.
一方、CCDイメージセンサがほぼ独占していたビデオカメラでも、2008年7月に発売されたパナソニック のデジタルハイビジョンカメラ「HDC-SD100/HS100」にνMaicoviconが採用された。 Meanwhile, CCD video camera with a monopoly in most of the image sensor, the Panasonic DEJITARUHAIBIJONKAMERA July 2008 was released on Monday "HDC-SD100/HS100" was adopted in νMaicovicon.

[Barry_Green]

Searching νMAICOVICON on panasonic.co.jp brings up a lot of PDFs in Japanese, so no further help there. Unless, of course, someone who reads Japanese wants to root through them and translate?

In any case, whether there is an HPX300 or not, whether it's CMOS or not, it seems like they're experimenting with some new takes on MOS sensors.

[DC]

Sounds like the pieces of the puzzle may be slowly coming together. :)

I'm definitely very interested in this hypothetical "HPX300" model and the new technology it might use. As much as I love my HPX170, I wish I knew about this BEFORE I bought it. However, I'm not going to whine about it. I'll continue to use my HPX170 until something better comes along (and a need to upgrade).

[Dino]

Interesting find Barry. The plot thickens! I would, however, like to make a couple of points about AVC Intra, even with a pixel shifted CCD chip set. With AVC Intra you would get the benefit of 10 bit depth, lower compression and higher pixel sampling, which could pay dividends even with 720p.

I do not see any AVC Intra P2 based camera as being that useful for event shooting. 32Gb and 64Gb cards are expensive and AVC Intra, even at its lower 50Mbps option still isn't as efficient as DVCPRO HD 720/24P Native--albeit close.

Whatever may or may not be coming out Q1 2009, I don't see it as competing with
the HPX170 if it weighs 13 lbs. and costs a few thousand dollars more.

Regarding 1/3" lenses, I wouldn't spend $8-9K on a 1/2" lens, much less 1/3".

[Barry_Green]

Depends on the slots though; the other full-size cams have four or five slots, and five slots means a lot of recording time... even at 100mbps. At 50mbps AVC-I you can get 1080/60i or 720/60p, which I would wager would be much more useful for event shooting than 24p. So even though 720/24pN is 40mbps, I think there's still a lot of appeal to a 50mbps HD 60i/60P.

Then again, I would expect an event shooter would be more likely to be drawn to SDHC AVC-HD instead... full-res, full-raster, 24mbps, and cheapo memory recording. I would expect Intra would be more appealing to news & professional production.

[Barry_Green]

Regarding 1/3" lenses, I wouldn't spend $8-9K on a 1/2" lens, much less 1/3".
Way agreed. That's crazy pricing for a 1/3" system. Most of Canon's lenses are in the $1500-$2500 ballpark.

Then again, the Fujinon 18x with extender for the JVC lists for almost $14,000 at B&H! Even the one without the extender is $9,000.

But, they also offer a 17x for $3,000. Looks like the pricing for 1/3" lenses is all over the place.

[Buck Forester]

νMAICOVICON is a catchy name. I hope this super secret rumored hybrid CMOS/CCD really is the best of both in a small form factor. That'd be cool. I might wait for the νMAICOVICONa though.

[Simon Höfer]

νMAICOVICON is a catchy name. I hope this super secret rumored hybrid CMOS/CCD really is the best of both in a small form factor. That'd be cool. I might wait for the νMAICOVICONa though.


Well, the PDFs on panasonic.co.jp are all quite old. They are about

νMAICOVICON which is used since 2005 I think, so it no new technology on itself. What is special about it, is that it is very small. They use it in Cellphones. They get a very high pixel count on a tiny ultra slim chip and it needs very low voltage (2.9Volts instead of 10-15V for CCDs). Mainly used to take pictrues. But they realized a quality VGA (Video Graphics Array: 640 pixels × 480 pixels) possibility.

That's quite old information. Means by now they could have developed it alot further to make a new descent chip.

[DC]

. . . νMAICOVICON which is used since 2005 I think, so it no new technology on itself . . . Means by now they could have developed it alot further to make a new descent chip.

I think that's the key idea. I mean, who knows if any of this is true. For all we know, nothing will be announced in February. Or . . . we could all be very pleasantly surprised. I mean, who knew the HPX170 had been under development for so long until we saw a prototype (or was it only a mockup?) at NAB 2008! :)

[Dino]

Then again, I would expect an event shooter would be more likely to be drawn to SDHC AVC-HD instead... full-res, full-raster, 24mbps, and cheapo memory recording. I would expect Intra would be more appealing to news & professional production.

Exactly my point. This would be more of a news/corporate/indie camera than event camera.

I'm curious as to who is buying $13K 1/3" lenses?

[Stevet]

It sounds like Panny is up to something good!

[Joe Lawry]

You wouldnt think too many people would be buying them..

Im in the same mind as you Jeff, i wouldn't invest in anything but 2/3" glass..

In saying that i used an EX3 with an HD 1/2" fuji wide yesterday.. cant remember the model.. but it was nice.

1/3" Native 1080 chips with AVC I would be amazing, there's no way we'll get 1/2", they'd slay their big cameras.. And if they can put a broadcast lens on the front with real stops im sold... as long as the stock lens isn't rubbish.. or then we'll be the ones buying 1/3" lenses!

[Noel Evans]

I'm curious as to who is buying $13K 1/3" lenses?

As am I, as those dollars could seriously be better spent elsewhere.

[typo]

Ooooh, okay, now things are getting a little interesting... check out this link from a CEATAC blog on the official Panasonic Japan web site.
http://ex-blog.panasonic.co.jp/exhibition/en/2008/10/ceatec08_640.html

In there it says that their 3MOS is based on CMOS, but it's sort of a hybrid CCD/CMOS? Not sure exactly what it's saying, but what it says is:


That's all promising. A 1920x1080 1/3" chip would certainly raise eyebrows for sensitivity and noise concerns, but if they've addressed those specifically, then...

Well, bah. It's all still just speculation.

I visited the link, and as I understood it, it's a CMOS with a larger fill factor, so the surface area of every photosite is larger than usual with CMOS (which has circuits in the way). I guess that they've moved the circuitry underneath the photosite.

But the readout is still the same, I guess.

Somebody from Panasonic sent me a PM, would like me to introduce myself. If I wanted to do that, would have done it publically.

About this info, since there is still no release from Panasonic, it's still a rumor, no matter how did I and the rest of the people got it. I believe we have a right to feed our curiosity and fantasize about what could be...

[ChipG]

Somebody from Panasonic sent me a PM, would like me to introduce myself. If I wanted to do that, would have done it publically.

Don't do it...

Mystery is more fun.

[ullanta]

Then again, I would expect an event shooter would be more likely to be drawn to SDHC AVC-HD instead... I would expect Intra would be more appealing to news & professional production.

Hey!

[Sumfun]

Then again, I would expect an event shooter would be more likely to be drawn to SDHC AVC-HD instead... full-res, full-raster, 24mbps, and cheapo memory recording. I would expect Intra would be more appealing to news & professional production.

How about AVC-HD at 35 or 50mbps with 4:2:2 color, recording to SDHC or CF? Now that would be interesting.

[Blackout]

I would prefer a smaller camera instead of something larger.
Smaller and less expensive media, with full raster. for now, that is all I want.

It's like VCR's..yeah my grandfather had one that was 20 pounds, now the last one was about 2 pounds, and since then replaced by a dvd or bluray... Smaller lighter, and better.

I can see shoulder mounts having removable lenses, but small cameras are better served as having one lens to do closeup and very wide shots.

I would love to buy another panasonic camera, but the way it looks, they need to play catch up quick.

With the Canon 5d mark II still camera that can shoot full 35mm frame video,
I am sure that technology will dump into the video cameras real soon.

Scarlet will be here soon,

EX1 is her now...

Panasonic? Yeah the HMC150 is really good in the $3,000 segment, but what about
between $3,000 to $6,000...they got nothin'


Seriously when I look at the footage that is coming off of the Canon 5d Mark II, I want to slap myself for buying a HVX200a which looks massively blurry in comparison - but the only thing that stops me is that the 5d still has wavy cmos issues... but Panasonic needs to step up with the resolution.

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Doesn't the 5D only do 30p?

[alexdias]

I looked at some footage (30p I believe) form the Canon 5D Mark II on a very decent LCD monitor and it blew my mind. Very beautiful, organic and sharp. The owner is a photographer with no interest in video so far.
I despised CMOS rolling shutter issues, it simply doesn't work for me. I'm a cameraman and my tools need to fit my real needs, if I can't move my camera at a certain speed or if my subject is moving fast and I unable to follow it; it's not good enough, but the images produced but that camera really impressed me.

[David Saraceno]

Perhaps a good interview camera?

[alexdias]

Certainly a good interview camera as far as image goes.
Sound, is another issue, like I've said the image is quite impressive but my friend has no idea nor interest on going much further with that; he shot some footage to test the video part of the camera and I was invited to take a look. It's very good, but I don't know if it's viable as a video camera yet.
Probably so with workarounds.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Sometimes I couldnt help but be disgusted by Panasonic decision to use a 960 x 540 pixel CCD into hvx200,hvx200a, hpx170 and hpx500 and then calling it a HD camera. That chip native resolution does NOT even meet the 720p specification.

[Barry_Green]

The chip specification has little to do with it. This is old, very old, very tired ground that we're treading here, but forget counting pixels and look at the actual footage.

[mrbrycel]

Sometimes I couldnt help but be disgusted by Panasonic decision to use a 960 x 540 pixel CCD into hvx200,hvx200a, hpx170 and hpx500 and then calling it a HD camera. That chip native resolution does NOT even meet the 720p specification.

lol, disgusted? thats a pretty strong word to describe how you feel about a CCD.

Why complain about the most amazing and revolutionary handheld camera ever made. Try the EX1, and I'm sure you'll have much more to complain about.

[Blackout]

Tired old ground or not I think what everyone is saying is that the issues with the HVX200, 200a, and the 170 being soft are real and becoming more apparent as sharper and and more richly detailed cameras are becoming common. This will trickle down soon and eventually layman people and clients will not be happy with the soft images of the HVX when they are exposed to constant increases in detail from other sources all aound.

Also, to say the chip specification has nothing to do with it is false. I keep hearing this argument that because the HVX takes it's 1920 x 1080 scan from an analog image, that the chips don't matter,but it takes this scan from a mix of what the chips produce, so they obviously do matter - otherwise we could have 3 1 pixel chips in there.

We can talk about geen pixel shift and analog scanning all we want, the truth of the matter is the HVX barely makes it past 500 lines on a real world resolution chart when it's in 1080p mode.. so it is NOT picking up a lot of detail... shift or no shift, and you say "well look at the image it produces and don't count pixels," and I say I do, and the image lacks detail.

Again, I am not bashing the HVX - I really like it for everything else it does and I use it because I am dealing with the softer image for now - because the increase in resolution I get on the EX1 comes with too many cmos issues for me to deal with at the current time, but I WANT that detail on the HVX, I am not happy with the HVXs softness I am just dealing with it. I think most everyone feels this way. We want a HVX200a/HPX170 image motion depth and color characteristics but improved up to full 1920 x 1080 resolution and detail. We are seeing that resolution on tons of other cameras and liking it but we want the filmic quality the panny cameras provide and no this quality is not from the softness, this is what is being called for in the next Panny camera. Will they step up? I hope so. I'm sure someone very soon is going to figure out some algorithm to fix the cmos issues and when that comes I will have to abandon the Panasonic ship if they don't have a new camera out that really delivers a 1920 x 1080p image.

Out of curiosity what does the EX1/EX3 get from an actual resolution chart? I didn't have time to check when I did my tests because I didn't have the EX1 for that long.

[puredrifting]

I don't know Blackout, I just watched the Vimeo clips that you posted in the other thread and I defy anyone to look at that HVX clip and tell me that the HVX is soft. If that is soft, than give me more softness like that! The shots aren't as sharp as the EX1 clips, but are infinitely more pleasing to my eye, they have so much more "soul" and not just because of the subject matter.

Dan

[John Caballero]

It baffles me when people talk about the "softness" of the HVX. I presume it comes from peole that don't have a clue of what they are doing. It may be a vision problem, I don't know. But the images from the Panasonic cameras are excellent.

[xmephestox]

i think barry is right, why be such a stickler for pixel shifting, how many exist in the image etc. if you it looks good and you're happy with what you get, what else matters? that's y there are so many cameras out there competing. you'll have all the options you want. you want something that caters to ur needs, you're going to pay accordingly. where do you think that extra 1000+ dollars is going when ur buying an ex1? and i wouldn't go by vimeo clips to judge how sharp an image is. it is HD footage but with the amount of compression you put on it, it will always look softer then the full res source.

[Barry_Green]

Here's all I meant by that - are you a camera engineer? Do you actually have the skillset to interpret how the 960x540 imagers work? If not, how can you make any such statements? FORGET how they work, because frankly very few people can even understand how they work. Look at the footage. Decide what looks good to you. If you've decided the HVX footage (not the numbers, but the footage) doesn't work for you, then move on. Fine. No prob.

People who get caught up counting pixels end up thinking that the Canon XHA1 must be three TIMES sharper, because it has three times as many pixels. Yet when you compare them side by side, as I did, you find out that they're all in the same basic ballpark.

Do you see THREE TIMES as many pixels between these shots?
Pic 1 (http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/xha1/HVX%20Battleship%20Wide.png)
Pic 2 (http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/xha1/XHA1%20Battleship%20Wide.png)

If you do, then great, go ahead and indict the 960x540. If, however, you see a basically comparable shot, then let's not go blaming technology that very few of us can even understand. That's all I'm saying. Yes, the EX1 is notably sharper than an HVX200, that's not in dispute. It had better be, with chips that are 50% bigger and four times as densely packed. But that doesn't mean that the spatial offset hasn't worked and that the HVX somehow doesn't deliver a nice image because it definitely does.

[LuckyStudio 13]

All I am saying is, The hvx and hpx 170 + hpx 500 would look so much more better if they upgraded the CCD. I am just wishing Panasonic will evolve its product a little more often like Sony with their XDCAM EX series and RED with their Red One, Scarlet and Epic.

The hvx is on its 2nd generation, hpx500 was introduced not too long ago and Hpx170 was introduced this year and yet there are no advancement on the CCD as well as the LCD. DVX100 series is now on its 3rd generation and it is still a 4:3 CCD. Come on Panasonic, you could do better.

The Panasonic camera has that good cinematic look or 'mojo', why not improve it with better CCD ? Why stifle it with 960 x 540 sensor ?

[Barry_Green]

All I am saying is, The hvx and hpx 170 + hpx 500 would look so much more better if they upgraded the CCD.
To what?

If you want a CCD, that's about all that technology can provide right now. You can't have a sharper, progressive-scan chip in CCD, at that size. They're at the limit of what the technology can do.

The only way to get sharper would be to a) sacrifice progressive scan, like Sony and Canon did, or b) go to CMOS. Which, according to this thread, it sounds like they might do.

So it wouldn't be "upgrading their CCD", it'd be shifting over to CMOS - and that will likely bring with it all that CMOS involves, including rolling shutter artifacts.

There's no free lunch.


I am just wishing Panasonic will evolve its product a little more often like Sony with their XDCAM EX series and RED with their Red One, Scarlet and Epic.
Well, sounds like you want them to go CMOS, as all those other products you mentioned are CMOS. And, according to "typo", that's what this rumored HPX300 is. So you should be happy. :)


The hvx is on its 2nd generation, hpx500 was introduced not too long ago and Hpx170 was introduced this year and yet there are no advancement on the CCD as well as the LCD.
There's a huge advancement in terms of noise performance, and smear. In terms of sharpness, it doesn't exist - you can't get better than what they've done without some significant sacrifice. Or abandoning CCD and going to CMOS.

And the HPX500 was introduced about a year and a half ago.


The Panasonic camera has that good cinematic look or 'mojo', why not improve it with better CCD ? Why stifle it with 960 x 540 sensor ?
Because you cannot do better than 960x540x60p on one single 1/3" chip. You can put on more pixels if you go interlaced, but then you'd give up 60p progressive scan (and variable frame rates, etc). And without variable frame rates or 720/60p, it wouldn't be an HVX, would it?

You could get more res if you glued two smaller chips together like JVC did, but then you'd have the split screen effect like JVC has.

Basically they've pushed CCD about as far as it's gonna go. If you want more pixels you need a bigger chip size; they're squeezing about as much out of 1/3" as you're gonna get. Or, you can go to a MOS-type chip, which typo says that this reported HPX300 would be (whatever it means that it's "3MOS").

Intel can't make a 100-gigahertz Pentium chip, and nobody can make a 1920x1080 1/3" progressive-scan CCD. Doesn't exist, as far as I know.

So if typo is correct and there's a 1920x1080 3MOS Panasonic coming, it sounds like everything you'd want - panasonic "mojo" with EX1-class resolution. Right?

[Justyn]

The Red camera has its own issues and gripes so that's a hard one to say that they got it right.. It's been an ongoing evolution on that side. Sony might upgrade their stuff because they've produced some real stinkers..


As stated on numerous posts.. there's more to this and to everything in general than the sharpness of the cam. If it mattered so blatantly then people would only be buying sony cams or the A1. But they AREN"T... The HVX kicked everythings but for 2 solid years... and the Sony had made up some ground, but now it's just a contender and not a king. Personally after shooting 20 minutes of footage with it..> Which did look sharp and great in low light.. but MAN ALIVE it SUCKS... SUCKS... SUCKS to handheld and the layout is wonky to say the least. I'd grow to friggin hate it.. just like I did with my XL1.

If this is a Panny thread with people digging what's going on.. whatever conjecture or whatever why is there a constant pissing down from Sony people. Does this happen on the EX1 threads where Panny people coming in and saying stuff.. I doubt it.. To me, you pick something go with it and be happy. The Sony people seem to spend more time bitching about the panny ones thatn shooting with it or applauding the laurels of that camera...


I say that Panny has a niche and a lot of us like it. Now if you like an EX1 that's friggin' fantastic, but why not show some footage that just knocks our socks off instead of pulling up charts and stats and jargon... Jeeze... don't worry be happy and I'm glad that somone likes those cameras, cause they are sharp.. but who wants to lug around a badly formed brick... The EX3 I'm sure is even worse... Some people might have the luxory to never hand to do handheld stuff, but that' s not my universe...

[LuckyStudio 13]

Please dont go CMOS (Irather wait for the cheap 2/3" fixed scarlet) !!! I hope "typo" would be 1/2" CCD with better resolution and form factor. If "typo" is 2/3" it means at least 6-7k for 2/3" lens.

[Barry_Green]

Typo said it's 1/3" 3MOS. Scarlet is CMOS.

All I'm saying is: if you want that resolution, at that chip size, it's gotta be CMOS (or "3MOS"). If you want CCD, the HPX/HVX is about as good as it can get, at 1/3" size. If you want 1/2", there's only two 1/2" CCD cameras on the market, the XDCAM-HD cameras, and neither of them are 1920x1080 either. You only find 1920x1080 CCDs at the full 2/3" size.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Now if Panasonic comes out with global shutter 3MOS or whatever they wanna call it. That would be a Killer. Ikonoskop dII is 1920 x 1080 2/3" CCD sensor but that is about 2x the price of the hpx170.

[alexdias]

The Ikonoskop is, at this point (like the Scarlet btw), wishful thinking.
Until these cameras are been tested among us and available that's the situation.

The HPX 170 and 500, the HVXs and the EXs are here.

[Barry_Green]

Global shutter on 3MOS would be very interesting indeed! I'd kind of given up on us ever seeing an affordable global shutter system. Maybe we'll see it in the 3MOS. Has anyone tried the consumer camera with the 3MOS system? Is it a global shutter?

[alexdias]

Global shutter on 3MOS would be very interesting indeed! I'd kind of given up on us ever seeing an affordable global shutter system. Maybe we'll see it in the 3MOS. Has anyone tried the consumer camera with the 3MOS system? Is it a global shutter?

I'm not familiar with any camera having a 3MOS chip.
The Global Shutter is essential IMHO for flexibility when handheld and guerilla-one-man situations.
This combination could be the best of both worlds.

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/1956741/index.html#anker_1956946] (http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_GB/1956741/index.html#anker_1956946%5D)

we were all waiting for this ?

http://www.panasonic.co.uk/get/params_W0_MThtml/1956978\

[Dino]

No. This is not the shoulder mount AVC Intra/DVCPRO HD camera that is due very soon.

[LuckyStudio 13]

No. This is not the shoulder mount AVC Intra/DVCPRO HD camera that is due very soon.


thank god ! :) probably it will use the same sensor technology ?

[alexdias]

Anything with a CMOS sensor and without a Global Shutter will be quite disappointing.
I'm always surprised how many people constantly use cameras with "jello-issues"!
Maybe it's just me, and I might be doing something wrong, but every time I've tried I had problems with it and I was unhappy with the results. Even the Red One is far from ideal on this issue.

[Luiz R]

What i read is:

3MOS = a MOS Chip with 3 Cores, one dedicated to each color.

BTW, MOS = Metal–oxide Semiconductor

What truly matters to me is the codec they will use, i just hope they keep a 4:2:2 compression. I just don't buy this 4:2:0 nowadays, to me this should be kept as a delivery mode, not capture.

[Blackout]

Anything with a CMOS sensor and without a Global Shutter will be quite disappointing.
I'm always surprised how many people constantly use cameras with "jello-issues"!
Maybe it's just me, and I might be doing something wrong, but every time I've tried I had problems with it and I was unhappy with the results. Even the Red One is far from ideal on this issue.

I am there with you on that one. I am shooting a film now where we ended up shooting on the EX1 because after I showed the producers the three big cameras footage projected in full HD on a huge theater screen, everyone jumped for the EX1. I could clearly see some weird issues that make my eyes itch but apparently a lot of people just don't see it, it's like thier brain adapts to it and swooshes with the image to correct it because I clearly saw it on some shots and played it back and they were like 'wtf? what it looks great!"

So I gave up and gave in and we are shooting on the EX1 and while some shots do look spectacular over the HVX when this stuff doesn't happen, half of my car accident shots have a lot of camera movement and some fast shakey cam and it looks awful I had to reshoot it 4 times and slow things down.

I don't like the HVXs softness and like of 1920 x 1080 24p n and I don't like the cmos issues I am SCREWED.

[alexdias]

I am there with you on that one. I am shooting a film now where we ended up shooting on the EX1 because after I showed the producers the three big cameras footage projected in full HD on a huge theater screen, everyone jumped for the EX1. I could clearly see some weird issues that make my eyes itch but apparently a lot of people just don't see it, it's like thier brain adapts to it and swooshes with the image to correct it because I clearly saw it on some shots and played it back and they were like 'wtf? what it looks great!"

So I gave up and gave in and we are shooting on the EX1 and while some shots do look spectacular over the HVX when this stuff doesn't happen, half of my car accident shots have a lot of camera movement and some fast shakey cam and it looks awful I had to reshoot it 4 times and slow things down.

I don't like the HVXs softness and like of 1920 x 1080 24p n and I don't like the cmos issues I am SCREWED.

There're a lot of things that I'm not crazy about it on the HVX/HPX cameras, the softness and lack of "stupid" detail are just some of it, but I have worked a lot with the 200 (a bit with the 170) and I know what I'm getting.
I've said before, many times, that I've shot a whole feature doc with the 200 and after we mastered in 1080 it has been projected in some pretty large screens (at Festivals all over the US) from a HDCAM dub and when the projector is calibrated and good enough the images are fantastic.
I respect a lot of people out there having excellent results with the EXs and other CMOS cameras, they seemed quite happy every time I ask about it.
For me and for now, it just doesn't cut.

[Justyn]

That new cam might be a good b cam.

[Green Hornet]

This past weekend, I found an old hard drive that I thought walked off.
It had some HVX200 footage on it. I re-edited it and projected it and it looked fantastic.

That same week I was at a film festival and saw more HVX200 footage.
IT also looked awesome.
Then I saw some EX1 footage (not sure if it was really EX1 footage as the director didn't know but said thought it was EX1).
The EX1 footage looked like blown up SD. I don't think it was really EX1 footage.

In any case, I have seen both look great projected.

EX1 has more detail, but the HVX200 looks great projected if done right.
I have been back and forth on this, and am now concluding that they both
can produce professional results....end of story.

[puredrifting]

I shoot with all three, HVX, HPX170 and EX1 on a regular basis and any pro can make any one of them sing. They all can look amazing, don't know why picking one over the other became a Jihad? I wish I was wealthy enough to own all three.

Dan

[Captain Pierce]

Still can't find anything out about "3MOS" and why they call it that instead of just saying "3 CMOS".

Because "3MOS" (pronounced three-moss) rhymes with CMOS (pronounced see-moss), but it must be cooler because it has "three" in the name. :) C'mon, Barry, think from a marketing perspective... :D

[Cees Mutsaers]

Any news about the HPX300 ???

[dantewaters]

I shoot with all three, HVX, HPX170 and EX1 on a regular basis and any pro can make any one of them sing. They all can look amazing, don't know why picking one over the other became a Jihad? I wish I was wealthy enough to own all three.

Dan

Yea I feel the HVX, HPX, EX will all look good in the right hands.
Because it is the shooter that renders the good results.

[puredrifting]

Nobody really knows anything beyond vague rumors. The HPX300 may not exist.

Dan

[Spartacus]

Nobody really knows anything beyond vague rumors. The HPX300 may not exist.

Dan

Are there really any rumors?
The 200 has just been revised, the 170 still is spanking new, the 150 seems to offer almost the same imagequality the only thing Pana could do is add sth to rival the formfactor of the EX3 or XLH1.

What I´d like to see is an improved version of the 500...

[jjb]

I guess that finally the HDC-HS300/HDC-TM300 3MOS consumer camcorders could be behind this rumor. Close, but no cigar ;-)

[BerkeleyBob]

I just attended Snader's Video Expo in San Mateo and pumped the Panasonic camera reps about the HPX300 and although they didn't have a lot more information than has been discussed in this thread, they did confirm that it exists. They'll be given a complete run down on its features in "the next two to two and a half weeks". And it is scheduled to be at NAB.

[benbixby]

BH keeps lowering their price on the HVX200... it just dropped another $50 today. Interesting...

[Dino]

There will be a Panasonic press release on February 11 about this new camera. It is real, it will probably deliver in March, same as the new P2 Portable with AVC Intra and HD SDI input.

[Leo Versola]

There will be a Panasonic press release on February 11 about this new camera. It is real, it will probably deliver in March, same as the new P2 Portable with AVC Intra and HD SDI input.

Any info on pricing yet?

[cboyes]

Is the February 11th thing true? if so, seems pretty buzz-worthy...

[BerkeleyBob]

Dino's disclosure of the 11th co-insides with what the Panasonic camera reps told me of a hands-on demo in "two to two and a half weeks".
One of the things one of the reps said was that he was a little confused as to how the B4 lens mount was supposed to work with a 3 1/3" 3mos chip camera (typically they only work with 1/2" or 2/3" lenses). When I said I hadn't heard about this feature he clammed up and changed the subject.
It's kind of interesting that JVC will be unveiling the HM700 3 ccd shoulder mount camera with QT codec at nearly the same time Panasonic will be announcing the HPX300. I wonder what Sony's resonse will be. Looks like a fun NAB.

[Spartacus]

I wonder what Sony's resonse will be.
Isn´t it more like Sony asked the question, with introducing the EX3?:beer:

[Gabriel Berube]

Wasn't the EX3 an answer to Canon's XL-H1 series? :-)

[LuckyStudio 13]

I dont think hpx300 is going to compete with hpx500 or replace it. I mean, for pete's sake the hpx500 now only comes with $500 rebate. If they are going to replace it, the rebate should be much bigger. In the past, the rebate was $2000.

[David Odell]

Most importantly for me is that they keep al the great stuff HVX/HPX has and bring a full 1080 chip to the camera. Or even better, like XL2 does, records higher resolution and then convert it to x resolution. :) Then the EX will be less a resolution option.

[FatDaddy]

but the hpx300 is a shoulder mount right?

[Lez]

'I just attended Snader's Video Expo in San Mateo and pumped the Panasonic camera reps about the HPX300 and although they didn't have a lot more information than has been discussed in this thread, they did confirm that it exists. They'll be given a complete run down on its features in "the next two to two and a half weeks". And it is scheduled to be at NAB.'


Kinda what I heard way back...

Will be anticipating any further news...

Cheers


I've heard on the grapevine that a HPX300 is due in February..

1/2" chips and semi shoulder mount with removable lens...

[dbwolfe]

maybe the HPX300 is just an HPX170 with AVC-Intra. an HPX500 with AVC-Intra seems like it would have a higher model number in keeping with Panasonic's naming scheme (ie: HPX700/HPX900 or similar)

[puredrifting]

With the success of the Sony EX3, I think a Panasonic with the feature set of the HPX170, but shoulder mount with 1080 full raster 1/2" CCD, removable lens and AVC Intra for under $10k would kill. But Barry has said that Panasonic is averse to 1/2" chips for some reason.

The same camera with the 960x540 1/3" chipset would not be nearly as appealing. People are clamoring for more native resolution. As much as I love my 170, I too would be tempted by a full resolution under $10k AVC Intra cam.

Dan

[Carlos Corral]

Do you think this HPX300 would shoot both DVCProHD & AVC-Intra? I know that final cut has to encode AVC-Intra using Prores 422 HQ so the file sizes would be killer. Unless FCP is going to add native editing for the AVC-Intra format?

But I think a camera that could deliver both codecs for under $10k is a no brainer must buy!

[David Odell]

Having owned a XL2 and used a HPX500 I really hope that Pana don't make a front heavy camera ala XL series or EX series. The good thing about shoulder support in the camera itself is that you don't need to spend the extra buying supporting gear, which makes the rig more heavy and more fragile.

Can't there be a 1080 full raster on a 3CCD chip?

[puredrifting]

Every other camera made that utilizes AVCIntra also uses DVCProHD so I assume it would.

Not sure what native resolution a 1/2 CCD chipset can support. Someone smart like Barry probably does. But obviously it could support better than 960x540. For me personally, even if it wasn't full raster, if it had significantly higher native resolution that 960x540 but still used a form of pixel shifting, that would be okay with me. If it had about 60% of the sharpness of the EX1/EX3, I would be good.

Personally I find the sharpness of the EX1/EX3 to be a detriment, it is largely what makes the camera look video-like.

Dan

[wjm]

HDC-HS300? (http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prModelDetail?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&itemId=323238&modelNo=Content01072009015842886&surfModel=Content01072009015842886)

Panasonic describes the above new line as "semi-professional camcorders" so could be interesting.

[Dino]

maybe the HPX300 is just an HPX170 with AVC-Intra.

Not in form factor--it definitely is not a palmcorder, it is a shoulder mount camera.
The mystery is sensor size, type, resolution. All will be revealed on the 11th.

[Spartacus]

Not in form factor--it definitely is not a palmcorder, it is a shoulder mount camera.
The mystery is sensor size, type, resolution. All will be revealed on the 11th.

What kind of NDA did you sign?
The "you can spill it out drop by drop" one?:beer:

Anyway, a EX3/XL style Pana would be the killer.
The killer for my intensions to buy it.

Seriously: "Handlecams" (Hvx/EX1...) are great, shouldermount cams are great.
Anything inbetween looses the small, flexible formfactor of a handlecam and misses the balance and steadyness of a shouldermount.
(sth like the JVC HD250 could win me over though...)

[MrBill]

Will this still be P2 ??

[Carlos Corral]

If its going to include AVC-Intra, I think it has to be. If it captures to SDHC slots, that would be amazing!

[puredrifting]

It would be nice to see Panasonic make a big splash again. Remember when the HVX200 was almost ready to be released? I have never been so hyped with anticipation.

For this camera, whic has probably been mistakenly named here as the HPX300, I am not that hyped but if it has some of these hot new features, it could be pretty hype worthy.

Dan

[LuckyStudio 13]

1/3" 3x MOS, full rasta HD with DVCPRO HD.

[MrBill]

Has everyone seen this? Makes me think twice about EX. I definitely want to see this camera.
How would you edit this? Supported on FCP I guess.


http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/p2-hd/avcintra.asp

[Jarek Zabczynski]

Has everyone seen this? Makes me think twice about EX. I definitely want to see this camera.
How would you edit this? Supported on FCP I guess.


http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/p2-hd/avcintra.asp

Not natively. Still gotta transcode to prores I believe. Right? :huh:

[puredrifting]

1/3" 3x MOS, full rasta HD with DVCPRO HD.

Do we know how MOS differs from CMOS? Can they really fit full raster onto a 1/3" MOS sensor? I guess if you judge from the Canon Vixias, which are single sensor, I guess you can. Interesting.

Dan

[Lumiere]

Here are some technical details for hpx301(PAL),Its from a local Panasonic distributor..I tried to translate to english,sorry for translation but i think that will not be problem 4 technical details:)

- 1/3″ 3MOS 1920×1080 2.2Mp Full HD sensör.
- DVCPRO HD and AVC-I (AVC-Intra) codec
- 10bit 4:2:2 1920×1080 full resolution record (No filter to downconvert to 1440)
- 12~60P variable frame rate
- 5.9Kg.
- 18W Consumption of energy
- HD/SD SDI out
- Dijital Chromatic Abberration Correction filter for lenses
- Dynamic Range Stretcher
- Clear, 1/4 ND, 1/16 ND ve 1/64 ND filters
- 20bit digital processing
- “scan reverse” feature for the film lenses usage
- 6 different gamma
- 16:9 0.45″ 852×480x3 1.226Mp LCOS (Liquid Crystal on Silicon) viewfinder
- 16:9 3.2″ 1920×480 921Kp LCD ( I think this is fantastic)
- Focus assist
- Proxy record option
- Wireless mic slot (unislot)
- AG-RC10G remote

[Sumfun]

Sounds interesting. Thanks for the specs Lumiere. Any word on lenses or pricing?

I'm a little disappointed because I was hoping for a bigger sensor. But I'm willing to wait and see how the picture looks, and what price point they put it in.

[Everts]

2 more days left

[MrBill]

--Proxy record option :beer: this is the coolest thing since sliced bread.

Dailies on my Iphone--- see white paper here.

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/Drivers/PBTS/papers/Proxy_Panasonic_Keynote.pdf

[Kholi]

Boo tiny sensor. What is it with Panasonic and these tiny-ass sensors, man?

I was hoping for something 1/2" or close to use with the new Relays... now what?

[Retrospective]

^Its probably because they're using 3 CMOS...

[Carlos Corral]

Anyone know if it has a global shutter?

[ChipG]

13 lbs. camera with a 1/3 inch sensor, this must be some sensor.

[Lumiere]

And the guy says that people do mistake by mixing the hpx 300 with AG-HMC41, that will come in August 2009 with 1/4″ 3MOS sensor and AVCHD codec, but hpx will be available on march, in europe :)

[alpi69]

1/3´´? WTF? one of the reason´s to step up from the HVX200 or HPX170 would be the shallower DOF of the 2/3´´and also the light sensitivity-noise ratio of 2/3´´.
Even if it is a 3mos it probably will have the typical 1/3´´look.

But one never knows. I anyway rather have less res and 2/3´´, kinda like I rather shoot with a 6MP DSLR than a 12MP P&S fotocam.

[puredrifting]

This sounds like a very interesting camera but unless it is well under $10k, it somewhat outdates the HPX500, other than for the fact that the 500 HAS the 2/3" sensor. AVC Intra? Something about film lens usage? Hmm...something seems fishy here.

Dan

[Dino]

Jan posted in another thread that she is busy this week training on two new products(would that be P2 Portable and HPX300?) and a press conference(would that be Wednesday about the HPX300?). Seems likely. 1/3" sensors is a disappointment, if true.

[Kholi]

Dissapointment is an understatement...

[puredrifting]

I agree, if they are going to try to get something to compete/beat the Sony cameras, that is a sticking point with a lot of people, even if they have managed to get full raster out of 1/3" 3MOS, whatever 3MOS is?

If you are going to go CMOS anyway, why not at least match the competition or blow them away with a 2/3" at the same price? Oh well, I never was a marketing major, maybe I just don't get it.

Dan

[ChipG]

Kholi are you gong to replace your 170 (when you sell it) with anything or are you done with pannasonic?

[John Caballero]

Dijital Chromatic Abberration Correction filter for lenses

Lenses? What interchangeable lens would a 1/3" camera use?

[ChipG]

Lenses? What interchangeable lens would a 1/3" camera use?

Special ones made just for the camera that cost 3x what the P2 cards do :)

[John Caballero]

Special ones made just for the camera that cost 3x what the P2 cards do

LOL! Most likely.

[Kholi]

I'm hoping to be done with owning a small camera now that our RED has been updated. But, we'll see.

You just never know these days...

[Joe Lawry]

Time to sell my HVX? hmmm we'll see. After owning an EX1 im not sure i want to buy another 1/3" camera either.. but avc intra on native 3mos chips would be nice..

[MrBill]

Can anyone explain native 3mos chips to us novices?

[Sumfun]

I think 3MOS just means 3 CMOS chips (vs. 3 CCDs). Native means the resolution is a full 1920x1080.

[ChipG]

Let's hope not then 1/3 inch sensors look even worse.

[David Saraceno]

What I'd like to see are actual specs before I get excited or disappointed.

[BerkeleyBob]

Have you guys who'd hoped for a larger chip been over to the HPX500 forum to hear the moaning about the price of 2/3" glass? Some 500 owners have even resorted to using standard lenses on that 8 bit camera with no avc-i.
JVC GY-HD200 owners have been using 1/3" lenses on their cameras for a couple of years and love them (except for their kit lens) as have Sony Z7 and 270 owners. Compare the cost of the 1/3" Fujinon TH13x3.5 wide angle at $6,500 to its 2/3" big brother at $13,000, for example, and you'll see why the 1/3" format makes sense to some.
And JVC is now in the process of replacing their 200 series shoulder mounts with the new HM700, yet ANOTHER 1/3" CCD camera (now with the QT codec and SDHC recording). So there will be a market for these 1/3" interchangeable lenses in the future.
Hopefully Panasonic has come up with a winner with this 3MOS chip. I'm looking forward to the field tests.

[Kholi]

Have you guys who'd hoped for a larger chip been over to the HPX500 forum to hear the moaning about the price of 2/3" glass? Some 500 owners have even resorted to using standard lenses on that 8 bit camera with no avc-i.
JVC GY-HD200 owners have been using 1/3" lenses on their cameras for a couple of years and love them (except for their kit lens) as have Sony Z7 and 270 owners. Compare the cost of the 1/3" Fujinon TH13x3.5 wide angle at $6,500 to its 2/3" big brother at $13,000, for example, and you'll see why the 1/3" format makes sense to some.
And JVC is now in the process of replacing their 200 series shoulder mounts with the new HM700, yet ANOTHER 1/3" CCD camera (now with the QT codec and SDHC recording). So there will be a market for these 1/3" interchangeable lenses in the future.
Hopefully Panasonic has come up with a winner with this 3MOS chip. I'm looking forward to the field tests.

That's a very good standpoint on the subject and I totally respect that. At the same time, it's also about what we're "guessing" the images will look like.

We've gotten something superb out of the EX-1's 1/2" sensor and, despite the most of us not being engineers, we can only guesstimate that a 1/3" CMOS (3MOS) sensor won't really match a 1/2" CMOS sensor.

Now, that said, there are a few things that might change all that but I suppose it's all about the footage.

My own personal, and major, concern is dealing with the 1/3" Mount and finding a relay to use with a 35mm Adapter. I'm not goin to be spending money on lenses.

[Lumiere]

As far as i understood they only plan hpx300 for this year and it will we hpx500 competitor because it's a shoulder camera. And for the october of 2010, 1/3″ 3MOS HPX251(PAL Version) with AVC-I...:)

Lumi

[Barry_Green]

But Barry has said that Panasonic is averse to 1/2" chips for some reason.
I was at SMPTE Australia when the boss of Panasonic Australia, Rob Myers, pretty much laid out that Panasonic thinks 1/2" is 1/2-assed. (my words, not his).

Whether we as individuals or businesses agree is one thing, but after the presentation he made, I would be very surprised if Panasonic Broadcast produced any 1/2" models.

[Barry_Green]

Do you think this HPX300 would shoot both DVCProHD & AVC-Intra?
There's no official confirmation yet one way or the other, but every other AVC-Intra product (HPX3700, HPX3000, HPX2700, HPX2000, P2 Mobile, and HPG20 P2 Portable) all support DVCPRO-HD as well.


I know that final cut has to encode AVC-Intra using Prores 422 HQ so the file sizes would be killer.
Well, not like from AVC-HD though. I mean, yes, the file sizes will be the same (about 170mbps I think) but AVC-Intra starts at 100 megabits, so the increase up to 170 is big, about 70%, but it's not like the file size increase from AVC-HD (where the files go from 21mbps up to 170mbps, an increase of over 600%).


Unless FCP is going to add native editing for the AVC-Intra format?
We can only hope. Avid and EDIUS both have native AVC-Intra editing. Apple has announced plans for native AVC-HD codec support, so hopefully they will also add AVC-I.

[Barry_Green]

Can't there be a 1080 full raster on a 3CCD chip?
Yes, but not under 2/3" size. And certainly not progressive.

You can get 1920x1080x60i on 2/3" CCD with the HPX3000/HPX3700. But in 1/2" the best anyone's made so far, in CCD, is 1440x1080x60i. Not full raster, and not 60p.

If you want 1920x1080, or 1280x720x60p, you have to have 2/3". Or go CMOS. You could do 1920x1080x60p on 1/3" CMOS, but not 1/3" CCD. At least not yet; who knows what the future may bring.

[Barry_Green]

Will this still be P2 ??
If something is DVCPRO-HD or AVC-Intra, that means it's P2.

If it captures to SDHC, that means AVC-HD.

You can't put DVCPRO-HD or AVC-Intra on an SD card, and you can't put AVC-HD on a P2 card. (well, I mean, I imagine technically it's possible, but they're not going to for whatever reasons. The product lines are well marked and delineated).

[Barry_Green]

Has everyone seen this? Makes me think twice about EX. I definitely want to see this camera.
How would you edit this? Supported on FCP I guess.
AVC-Intra is supported on FCP now, through the Log & Transfer process over to ProRes. There's a free codec you download from Panasonic's site.

Avid and EDIUS support AVC-Intra natively, and hopefully FCP's next release will as well, although there's been no public announcement or speculation about such that I know of.

[Barry_Green]

I was hoping for something 1/2" or close to use with the new Relays... now what?
Well, assuming that what's been printed is accurate, what would be to stop you using a 1/3" to 2/3" adapter and using any and every relay and lens ever made? Excepting Canon proprietary mounts, of course. Or use the 1/3" to 1/2" adapter and use EX1/EX3 relays, etc...

[Barry_Green]

1/3´´? WTF? one of the reason´s to step up from the HVX200 or HPX170 would be the shallower DOF of the 2/3´´and also the light sensitivity-noise ratio of 2/3´´.
Even if it is a 3mos it probably will have the typical 1/3´´look.

But one never knows. I anyway rather have less res and 2/3´´, kinda like I rather shoot with a 6MP DSLR than a 12MP P&S fotocam.
Sounds like you'd want the HPX500 then, right?

[Barry_Green]

Lenses? What interchangeable lens would a 1/3" camera use?
Not sure why this is such a hard point for people to grasp, but some 1/3" lenses have been available for YEARS.

Heck, JVC makes practically nothing BUT 1/3" interchangeable lenses, using the same bayonet mount that Panasonic used to use on 1/3" SD cameras. So it would be a reasonable assumption that existing lenses from Fujinon and Canon, that work with the HD100/HD100/HD200/HD250, and also the Sony S270 and V7U, would also work.

And, just how hard would it be to use the 1/3" to 2/3" adapter to get access to every 2/3" lens ever made? Or the 1/3" to PL adapter to use film lenses? Or the 1/3" to 2/3" adapter to use the new 2/3" relay lenses for 35mm adapters?

It remains to be seen whether Canon XL lenses would be usable; I don't think anyone ever made an adapter for JVC to use Canon XL lenses.

Fujinon 1/3" lenses:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542783-REG/Fujinon_HTS18X4_2BERM_M48_HTs18x4_2BERM_M48_1_3_18 x_ProHD.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/472200-REG/Fujinon_HTS18X4_2BRM_HTs18x4_2BRM_1_3_18x_ProHD.ht ml

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/473470-REG/Fujinon_HTS18X4_2BRM_M48_HTs18x4_2BRM_M48_1_3_18x_ ProHD.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/401434-REG/Fujinon_TH13X3_5BRMU_TH13x3_5BRMU_13x_1_3_JVC.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/472201-REG/Fujinon_TH17X5BRM_Th17x5BRM_1_3_17x_Lens.html

PL film lens adapter:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?&feature_id=01&model_id=MDL101683

1/3" to 2/3" converter for using 2/3" B4 lenses:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?&feature_id=01&model_id=MDL101617

1/3" to 1/2" converter for using 1/2" lenses:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?&feature_id=01&model_id=MDL101552

Canon 1/3" bayonet lens (not for XL series):
http://www.canon.com/bctv/products/pdf/KT20x5B%20KRS1.pdf

[LuckyStudio 13]

welcome back Barry !!!!! I am on the conservative side, I bet ... its 1/3" MOS full rasta with dvcpro HD. The best case scenario would be AVC Intra board is optional just like on the hpx2000. We shall all see tomorrow if this camera even exists.

[Barry_Green]

Just landed last night, this is my first time in front of an actual keyboard in two weeks! :) All prior logging in was done from the blackberry storm, and ... yeah, well, nothing beats a real keyboard! :)

[markyf]

Fujinon 1/3" lenses:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/542783-REG/Fujinon_HTS18X4_2BERM_M48_HTs18x4_2BERM_M48_1_3_18 x_ProHD.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/472200-REG/Fujinon_HTS18X4_2BRM_HTs18x4_2BRM_1_3_18x_ProHD.ht ml

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/473470-REG/Fujinon_HTS18X4_2BRM_M48_HTs18x4_2BRM_M48_1_3_18x_ ProHD.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/401434-REG/Fujinon_TH13X3_5BRMU_TH13x3_5BRMU_13x_1_3_JVC.html

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/472201-REG/Fujinon_TH17X5BRM_Th17x5BRM_1_3_17x_Lens.html

Really only having experience with the stock DVX lens, are these lenses noticeably better than what come on most Panasonic cameras? A little confused as to why one would spend $13k on a 1/3 lens.

[DSWMEDIA]

Yeah, there's no way this camera will be under 10,000. It's an update to the HX500 I think.

But it is odd that it would be called the HPX300, if that name has any truth to it.

I'm hoping for 1/2inch full raster CMOS at LEAST, if not 2/3" Full Raster CCD......

[Kholi]

Not sure why this is such a hard point for people to grasp, but some 1/3" lenses have been available for YEARS.

Heck, JVC makes practically nothing BUT 1/3" interchangeable lenses, using the same bayonet mount that Panasonic used to use on 1/3" SD cameras. So it would be a reasonable assumption that existing lenses from Fujinon and Canon, that work with the HD100/HD100/HD200/HD250, and also the Sony S270 and V7U, would also work.

And, just how hard would it be to use the 1/3" to 2/3" adapter to get access to every 2/3" lens ever made? Or the 1/3" to PL adapter to use film lenses? Or the 1/3" to 2/3" adapter to use the new 2/3" relay lenses for 35mm adapters?

It remains to be seen whether Canon XL lenses would be usable; I don't think anyone ever made an adapter for JVC to use Canon XL lenses.


Welcome back, Barry.

Wouldn't the examples you gave, for adapters, multiply the focal length in a significant fashion?

Basically a 50 becomes like an 85?

That's what I mean by having a few issues with the 1/3" deal. If the relays are set at the academy equivalent with a 2/3" sensor then the 1/3" Sensor eats into that further.

Or do I have that wrong?

If I were a gun jumper, which as we all know I am (LOL), I'd say right now the best bet for adapter users and this camera might be the EX-3 Letus Relay + a 1/3" to 1/2" Adapter as linked. You'd lose the least amount of FOV that way and, to boot, your rig would be short (accuracy of said statement pending actual camera specs.)

[mcgeedigital]

Yeah, there's no way this camera will be under 10,000. It's an update to the HX500 I think.

But it is odd that it would be called the HPX300, if that name has any truth to it.

I'm hoping for 1/2inch full raster CMOS at LEAST, if not 2/3" Full Raster CCD......

If it isn't a 2/3" chip camera it isn't an update to the 500, it would be called the HPX550 or something, not the HPX300.

[Barry_Green]

Wouldn't the examples you gave, for adapters, multiply the focal length in a significant fashion?

Basically a 50 becomes like an 85?
I always hate that focal length multiplier stuff, because it just leads to confusion. A 50mm lens on a 1/3" camera is a 50mm lens on a 1/3" camera. There is no such thing as "what a 50mm looks like", it all depends on what it mounts to. A 50mm on a 35mm still camera looks different than a 50mm mounted on a 35mm movie camera, which is different from how that same 50mm lens looks like on a Super16 camera, which is different from how it'll look on a 2/3" camera, which is different still from how it'd look on a 1/3" camera.

But if you took an HPX170 and zoomed to 50mm, it'd look exactly the same as if you put a 50mm lens on a 1/3" interchangeable-lens camera.

So... if using a 1/3" to 2/3" adapter, and you used a 21x8.0 lens on that adapter, you'd have a maximum wide angle of 8.0mm. Which will be the exact same 8.0mm as if you'd put on an 8.0mm prime lens from a 16mm movie camera.

So: will a 1/3" to 2/3" adapter give a lens the exact same field of view on a 1/3" camera, as it would have on a corresponding 2/3" camera? No. A 13x5.5mm lens might be extremely wide on a 2/3" camera, whereas it's only reasonably wide on a 1/3".

But you can mount it. Just don't get caught up in focal length conversion factors, and just treat it as it is. For example, the JVC lens is a 16x5.5 (meaning, 5.5mm at the wide end, and 16x zoom factor). That's a 1/3" lens. You would think that putting a 2/3" lens on would magnify the perceived focal length, right? But not really. You can get a 2/3" Canon J11ex4.5 lens, which is an 11x zoom with a 4.5mm wide angle. That'll actually be WIDER on the 1/3" camera than the 1/3" 5.5mm lens would be! A mm is a mm is a mm. The sensor size determines how much you see through that lens, but you shouldn't try to drive yourself too batty trying to remember various magnification factors... compare the lens you're considering against the stock lens and you'll know whether it's wider or more telephoto, and how much so.

And, once you put a 35mm adapter in the mix, you've eliminated all magnification factors from the chip size argument.



That's what I mean by having a few issues with the 1/3" deal. If the relays are set at the academy equivalent with a 2/3" sensor then the 1/3" Sensor eats into that further.

Or do I have that wrong?
Er... okay, so now that's a good question. Not sure about that one!

[Kholi]

Yeah! That's what I meant. The relay options that we have are fixed at specific frame sizes or a specific FOV. If the manufacturers have calculated that X = The proper focal length a relay must be to achieve an academy FOV when combined with a 2/3" sensor ( X + 2/3" = 24x36 ) then adding an adapter will definitely turn things a bit "long" as far as focal lengths go.

Again, though, I forgot that 1/2" doesn't seem that far off from 1/3" and-- if I remember properly-- 1/3" and 1/2" are rough estimates of a sensor size to begin with. The 1/3" 3MOS might be closer to 1/2" but doesn't qualify due to various reasons.

So, we take the Letus 1/2" Relay, grab an adapter and we're in the 35mm FOV Ballpark at least.

This is also all assuming that A) The camera has a package that does not include a lens. B) the kit lens is too long or not good enough to handle a 35mm Adapter (Letus Ultimate = My preference).

I personally have no intention of spending thousands on zoom lenses because I'm pretty much married to 35mm Adapters. That's just me!

[Sumfun]

Nice to see Barry back. I thought maybe he was off writing a book about the new camera.

[Shipsides]

Welcome back Berry!

1/3" Type Sensor is 6mm in size diagonally. A 1/2" is 8mm and 2/3" is 11mm. So to quickly figure out your magnification factor or crop factor you just divide the diagonal dimensions. So a 2/3" Lens on a 1/3" camera would have a 1.8333 magnification.

That is a HJ11x4.7mm 2/3" Canon lens on a 1/3" Camera would look like a 11x8.6mm. Not so wide, but pretty long. I don't think it is worth getting caught up in the magnifications either, but on the wide end it does make a difference.

A relay lens would also be magnified. For instance when I put a Pro35 (2/3" version) on an EX3 I am magnifying the center of the image, or just cropping off the sides if you prefer to think of it that way. I still get the same DOF off the ground glass, but I don't see the whole area my PL mount lens is covering.

[Kholi]

Exactly, Shipsides. Which is why the jump from a 1/3" to 1/2" Relay probably won't be a major hit on FOV. The 1/2" was designed for the 1/2" sensor so you're gonna end up with something probably in between 16mm and 35mm FOV. Not too bad.

[Barry_Green]

Nice to see Barry back. I thought maybe he was off writing a book about the new camera.
Heh. You'll see soon enough what I was up to. But no, the next book is on the HMC150. :)

[DSWMEDIA]

I suppose this camera will land somwhere between the 200 and 500. We'll see. If the specs are released tomorrow, it ill sure be an exciting day!

[Postmaster]

More things to come:

AJ-HPX3700, AJ-HPX2700, AG-MC151, AW-HE100, AW-PH405, AK-HC1500,
AW-HE870

AJ-HPS1500, AJ-PCD35, TH-65, AJ-HPG20, J-PCD35, AW-RP655, AV-HS400,
TH-65 und AJ-HPG20

Frank

[Carlos Corral]

Looks like JVC released their new HM700 camera today:
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101851&feature_id=01

$7995 is a hefty price tag. Hopefully the new HPX300 is a bit lower than this.

[Kholi]

Actually, that's about the price I assume the HPX300 will come in at, if not more. I'd be surprised if it's any less.

And, yes, the JVC actually looks like an interesting alternative. I might be the only one but I've always thought the HD250 footage looked quite nice. Will be nice to see some footages from that.

What's all that hoopla about new "CCD" technology? Either way, go JVC. Gonna be over at Belair camera checking one out asap, I'm sure they'll have 'em if Samy's doesn't.

[JohnT]

Well,
If panny does announce the 300 tomorrow, I wonder how long it would be before you can get one in your hands? Also, was it mentioned that it would be a fixed lens or interchangeable.

[MrBill]

Well NAB should be fun :shocked:

[Carlos Corral]

I'm actually wondering if this release of the HPX300 will lower prices of say an HPX170? I know it isn't AVC-Intra, but hey, an HPX170 in the $4k range is very tempting.

[Kholi]

You can get an HPX170 in the 4K range right now. =D hint hint

Anyway, the REAL hope is that they offer the HPX300 as a body only at a lower price, cards included. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Panasonic acquire JVC? It'd be friggin' awesome if the HPX300 was for immediate release.

No, I'm not gear lusting... Honest.

[MrBill]

Is 35mbps all the good of resolution?

[Carlos Corral]

Is 35mbps all the good of resolution?

I think it uses the same type of compression that the EX1/EX3 use for HD @ 35mbits.

[heavyG]

You can get an HPX170 in the 4K range right now. =D hint hint

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Panasonic acquire JVC? It'd be friggin' awesome if the HPX300 was for immediate release.

No, I'm not gear lusting... Honest.

Since the '50's Matsushita (Panasonic) has held a majority stake in JVC, which they sold off over the last 2-3 years. Since Oct of '08 JVC has been merged with Kenwood, and is no longer associated with Panasonic.


G.

[Sumfun]

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Panasonic acquire JVC?

You're wrong! :)

Both Panasonic and JVC used to be subsidiaries of Matsushita Electric Industrial Company. But Matsushita spun off JVC in October 2008, and it merged with Kenwood Electronics, to form JVC Kenwood Holdings. At the same time, Matsushita changed its name to Panasonic. So technically, Panasonic never owned JVC.

That HM700 looks like a nice camera. Will have to see how the picture looks.

[Kholi]

You're wrong! :)

Both Panasonic and JVC used to be subsidiaries of Matsushi*a Electric Industrial Company. But Matsushi*a spun off JVC in October 2008, and it merged with Kenwood Electronics, to form JVC Kenwood Holdings. At the same time, Matsushi*a changed its name to Panasonic. So technically, Panasonic never owned JVC.

That HM700 looks like a nice camera. Will have to see how the picture looks.

You're late! Just had to rib ya.

TY for the correction.

[Spartacus]

I guess it would compete with the new shoulder mount JVC
http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101851&feature_id=01
This was posted two pages before in this thread...

[David Saraceno]

Isn't it February 11th somewhere right now?

[Sumfun]

You're late! Just had to rib ya.

Got beat by 1 minute! Dang!

[puredrifting]

No, I'm not gear lusting... Honest.

Oh please Kholi, we all know that's what you do for a living! ;-)

Dan

[Kholi]

Oh please Kholi, we all know that's what you do for a living! ;-)

Dan

I'm so off the wagon. For serious. For serious serious. I've been writing a lot, just got a little interested in this HPX300 stuff!

For serious serious!

[Lez]

Info out today as far as I know... I'm excited...

Cheers

[puredrifting]

Okay Kholi, I will be your sponsor for Gearhead-aholics anonymous. You can make it through this, just do it one day at a time. When you see those new pictures of the 300's shiny goodness, you will weaken and feel the need to take out your credit card. Call me, I'm there for you. Keep telling yourself, "I have a RED, I have a RED..."

Dan

[ChipG]

Hi,

My name is Chip, I'm not allowed to make a post about the hpx 300 until the facts come out.

I can still drink & smoke for the record. :beer::Drogar-Smoke(DBG):

[puredrifting]

Yes Chip, I think we have done enough baseless hypothesizing about a camera that may or may not even exist until tomorrow morning. ;-)

G'night!

Dan

[ChipG]

All you had to say was go hang out on the Scarlet thread.

Ok, smoking break is over, back to the meeting.

[MrBill]

nothing on their web site??

[Spartacus]

What time is it in the States?
When can we expect the press release?

Aaaaaaaah, the geek in me takes over........

[Barry_Green]

It's 8:37 a.m. east-coast time. 5:37 a.m. west-coast time.

[wilsonhvx]

I wish they'd go on and put the release up. This is killin' me!

[Barry_Green]

Oh, and Kholi, have you forgotten that a 1/3" relay lens already exists? The Letus relay for the HD100... heh.

[vanvideo]

Sooooo..........



Where's the camera?

[Spartacus]

It's 8:37 a.m. east-coast time. 5:37 a.m. west-coast time.
That makes you either a early bird person or some kind of vampire...:)
Ha, I bet you just NEVER sleep!

[ImpossibleBishop]

The Suspense is killing me... PLEASE RELEASE IT ALREADY!!!!!!

[jls4]

I'm interested to see myself if Panasonic will step up to the HD Plate with something truly real. Even if they had 1440 x 1080 chips and interpolated to 1920x1080p it would still be sharper than 960x540. I'm looking to go EX1 all the way if Panasonic doesn't show me something.

It's easy to say there's no since in going full res, but when your editing you need cropping room. 1920x1080 there is no cropping room. So if you slightly blow up the shot, you've already lost sharpness. And the avergae shoot is not going to get true 1080p of res. You're lucky if your saving 940 in that 1080p space. So having more true pixels or possibility of true pixels is worth its weight in gold. That's why I looked past the HVX-series. Besides Panasonic has a huge benefit here to rid some of the EX1s CA problems along with the Rolling Shutter Problem. They can create the perfect camera under $7500!

[David Saraceno]

Barry:

Wadda ya know?

C'mon. You gotta spill the beans. Inquiring minds want to know.

:)

[vanvideo]

Is this it?

http://ruplinger.net/images/panasonic%20wv-3100%20camera.jpg

[vanvideo]

heh heh...

[markyf]

I'm so disappointed. How could Panasonic do this to us? This is an upgrade from the HVX? Come on!


Is this it?

http://ruplinger.net/images/panasonic%20wv-3100%20camera.jpg

[ImpossibleBishop]

So, Panasonic decided to go away from AVC-Intra and offer a true legacy codec....

SVHS FOREVER!!!!!!

nice...

[puredrifting]

I don't know guys, this could turn out to be nothing but a lame rumor. It already almost 10:00 AM PST and that makes it 1:00 PM EST. I would think if it was going to happen, it's gotta be well before 5:00 PM EST?

Dan

[Joe Lawry]

i was told by a local dealer that they had panasonic reps coming in tomorrow (today) for something special..

[LuckyStudio 13]

To be honest, I kinda agreed with Dan. f the hpx500 would to fade they would at least give out the original $2000 rebate and not the lame $500 rebate (Really , Panasonic ? in this economy ?? only $500 bucks ?). They also just introduced the hpx170 and even the $20k + hpx2000 doesnt get built in AVCIntra. Dont get me wrong, it would be AWESOME to have the full rasta avcintra at under $10k but maybe in a few more years after the aging of hpx170 and the hvx200a.

[Kholi]

Oh, and Kholi, have you forgotten that a 1/3" relay lens already exists? The Letus relay for the HD100... heh.

I have! I wonder, though, how it compares to the optics of the newer relay. Also options.

But, either way, you're right!!! This would be an interesting comparison: 1/3" Letus Relay versus the 1/2" Letus Relay w/1/3" adapter. What kind of image performance do you get with either, what's the trade-off from kit lens to 1/3" relay to 1/2" + 1/3" Adapter... things to start considering if'n this thing really comes true.

[Barry_Green]

Barry:

Wadda ya know?

C'mon. You gotta spill the beans. Inquiring minds want to know.

:)
But I've been balancing this plate of beans for so long, you actually want me to spill them now?

[markyf]

Maybe they're waiting till after the bell. I think the HPX300 could be a major market mover!

[Arrow]

This just came onto my desk:


http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101851

[Lez]

Looks interesting... I think we'll be seeing something similar from Panny today...

Cheers

[NorthernFilmMaker]

You know what guys, I don't think there is going to be any news of a HPX300 today! I think we all just want to hear that Panasonic is releasing a camera that has better resolution than the HVX200/HPX170, and longer record times using AVC-Intra, and something that will compete with the EX1/3, or the brand new JVC HM700. Just my thoughts, I think Jan would have said something, but to my knowledge I don't think she said a thing about a HPX300.

But the new JVC HM700 looks pretty darn interesting.... I'm very curious what kind of images it creates!

[Lez]

All I can say is I've been reprimanded for this thread.. (who would have thought it would go so far)...

Interesting times for Panny....

Cheers

[David Saraceno]

I don't think there is going to be any news of a HPX300 today

I think there will be an announcement today of a HPX300.

Too much indicates that, and Barry has admitted that he has been juggling the beans.

:)

[markyf]

Yeah and Lez, the firestarter, showing up again with more of his innuendo. As my magic eight ball says, all signs point to yes. I somehow get the feeling we're victims of viral marketing... rumours released to ensure no one buys an EX1 in the couple of months before they can officially announce. If so, well done!

[Barry_Green]

Beans have been juggled, and they're getting pretty slippery on my plate...

[Kholi]

>=T What!? You already knows things!?

Man...

[Postmaster]

Ahrghh! He always does.

Frank

[Rowlander]

This just came onto my desk:


http://pro.jvc.com/prof/attributes/features.jsp?model_id=MDL101851
Not bad! Looks like a good deal.

But I would like to say one thing while we wait: I just now looked at the specs of that JVC-camera and thought to myself: "Only 1/3 inch? :huh: That´s not more than my 3.600 Euro Canon XH A1."

I hope Scarlet and the Canon 5D MKII will only be the beginning. The other manufacturers will have to build cameras with 2/3 inch chips at a lower price-point sooner or later.

Am I right?

(By the way, I am not trying to stir things up or say that I expect that from the Hpx300, if there is one. I am just wondering whether it wouldn´t make sense to wait a little longer for the chip-revolution. :) ) Peace!

[Barry_Green]

>=T What!? You already knows things!?

Man...
That might be an understatement. :evil:

I have to go to the airport in under an hour, so I'll try to get something posted when I can.