Nick Berg Beheading Video...

[kai]

Not hardly. Of all the things I've ever seen in my life, that was one prime example of how evil and horrible the islamic militants we're fighting are. Discpicable humans at their worst. I'm immune to most violence, etc, but this one made me sick. I feel horrible for his family, as I can imagine they've seen the photos/clips of it on the news by now. I can only hope they don't see the full version. It's horrible.

[skettalee]

Where did you see the full version cause i would like to see it. Also I would maybe change your thread title cause I thought you were making fun of the whole thing at first just sending the title. But yes it is really messed up and out of all things I have seen and heard of since I been in the military, this is the worse and I feel they should pay times 2.

[Fred_Plowman]

but Kai these are peace loving people.. this appeared to me to be an outright Sacrafice to their GOD or whatever.. This is the peace loving Islam

[kai]

you are being sarcastic, right?

[Fred_Plowman]

Kai come on dude...lol of course...I think when i said peace loving and a sacrafice to their god that it would easy to see that I was.. Im sure you knew that and were just being fastecious

[kai]

;)

[kai]

;) So does being fastecious about being fastecious cancel it out as a double negative? ;)

[kai]

Just came across this on kerry's record.. though it was interesting:

He voted to kill the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. He voted to kill the M-1 Abrams Tank. He voted to kill every Aircraft carrier laid down from 1988. He voted to kill the Aegis anti aircraft system. He voted to Kill the F-15 strike eagle. He voted to Kill the Block 60 F-16. He voted to Kill the P-3 Orion upgrade. He voted to Kill the B-1 bomber. He voted to Kill the B-2 bomber. He voted to Kill the Patriot anti Missile system. He voted to Kill the FA-18. He voted to Kill the F117. In short, he voted to kill every military appropriation for the development and deployment of every weapons systems since 1988, to include the battle armor for our troops. With Kerry as president our Army will be made up of naked men running around with sticks and clubs.


He also voted to kill all anti terrorism activities of every agency of the U.S. Government, and to cut the funding of the FBI by 60%, to cut the funding for the CIA by 80%, and cut the funding for the NSA by 80%.


But then he voted to increase OUR funding for U.N operations by 800%.

[Fred_Plowman]

And I thought GW was all about a new world order.. lol

[kylelewis1]

[quote author=Kai link=board=Offtopic;num=1084468494;start=0#7 date=05/14/04 at 12:54:39]
With Kerry as president our Army will be made up of naked men running around with sticks and clubs.
quote]

If that happens, lets hope we don't have to send troops to a cold weather location!

[kylelewis1]

I need to figure out how to do those stupid quote things!

[J.R. Hudson]

LOL

Just hit QUOTE! It'll do it for you!

KAI, is this for real?

[kylelewis1]

LOL

Just hit QUOTE! It'll do it for you!

*

I did hit quote and it just looks like this! I think my PC is just playing tricks on me. I better start surfing the web on my mac!

Oh wait, I guess after making that threat my PC decided to behave because its working now. But that is the exact same thing I did before!

[Scott_Spears]

Kai,

You have to stop just blindly buying into the Bush propganda machine. John Kerry did vote against the weapon systems you name, but he didn't vote against them specifically. After the break up of the Soviet Union and the end of the cold war, government as a whole was looking to save some money by scaling back on defense because our biggest enemy was out of business. So anyway, votes came up to cut back on some defense appropriations and Kerry voted for the cuts. Here's the fun part, the Secretary of Defense at the time proposed these cuts and you know who that was? Drum roll please.....Dick Cheney!!!! So when Cheney says Kerry is weak on defense, then he better take a long look in the mirror.

To be honest Kerry's doing some of the same shit in ads, for example, he says that Bush said "outsourcing job was good for the economy." Bush never said that. A report he signed had an attachment in which an economist said that. I just had to say that so you wouldn't think I was just picking on W. I don't like this guy and surely don't want 4 more years of him but I wouldn't lie to get him out office. There are plenty of real lies and screws up out there to mention.

Scott

[Woodson]

This is all happening because of Bush and Ramsfield... they are just as bad as those people.

I don't know if they showed this in the US news networks .. .but did you guys see Nick dad ... thats exactly what he said.. he wasnt really saying anything about his son.. but he was saying that Bush is evil... i'm interested to know if that was shown in the usa media.. up here in Canada it was.

[Everdene]

I'm quite patient, even somewhat sympathetic, about all the anti-american stuff out there. I don't agree with most of it, but I can understand the truth of some of it and I can even understand how people end up buying into some of the twisted stuff.

But minimizing Berg's death, Mr. Woodson, is a little bit too over-the-top, sickly, perverse, and warped anti-american for me. So here's my over-the-top reply: may God bless Berg's family, all of those who are trying to defend liberty and peace in the world, and may God bless america and its current leader, President Bush.

[Scott_Spears]

Hey Folks,

Strange problem with my last post here. In it, I mention Dick Cheney's name and I was 99% sure I spelled it Dick not sick, but I did type up the message at 12:30am so I thought I could have mis-typed because the "S" and "D" on the keyboard are side by side. Anyway, I went back to modify it and in the edit window my post reads correctlty, Dick instead of sick. It's a clever little play on words, but it's not my play on words. What's up?

ADDITIONAL POST: Ok, I just wrote this message and it's doing the same thing as you can see. Is there some kind of censorship macro running that I don't know about? I saw the f-word on another post so that doesn't seem likely, but who knows. Anyway his first name is Richard, but he uses the shortened name which startes with an D, not an S and ends in "ick".

Scott

[David Jimerson]

There are a few things like that in the site.

As to the above "news" story, well, it couldn't be anything but a joke (or a hoax). The whole thing busted by a Mexican doctor named "Raul Castro Guevara"? Come on, people. Pop open a history book now and then.

[kai]

Sure the video is of horrible quality, with audio out of sync, etc. Not all terrorists are running around with Final Cut or Vegas, Woodson...

Everdene- I agree with your sentiments for his family... how horrible that must be.

[Guest]

Sad events happening in Iraq, but with one fellow having all the arms the other has to resort to guerilla methods. One has depleted uranium and the other a scimitar or two.
As your president Dwigt Eisenhower said "beware of the military industrial complex" they will make a war up to get the order. Capitilism sure is great? ::)

[David Jimerson]

ZZZzzzz.

[Terry_Lasater]

I just love it when 'guests' jump on here and give their anonymous opinion.

I sometimes wonder if its not a regular member trying to make it appear as though there are others who share their view.

Regardless... yes, Capitalism ROCKS!!!

[ExFilms]

This dude went to Iraq on his own accord looking for work. Pardon my insensitivity but, MORON! Did he not see the war on the news? No sympathy here. His dad blames Bush? Proves my theory that stupidity is genetic.

To those soldiers that lose their life over there fighting in the name of our country...utmost reverence and respect.

The video looks faked. I have no doubt that the body is real and the death just as severe, but the video is cleverly shot and edited like a low budget Romero flick. Just because they aren't using a DVX or editing on Vegas doesn't mean that they aren't smart.

War and death are a part of humanity...has been forever...won't ever change. The other thing that won't change is how religion, your parents, your friends, and the media will sculpt your opinion for you. Bush this, Kerry that...does anyone know whats really going through their heads? No...so do your opinions on their politics carry any weight? No.

Thank god we haven't always been this weak. We would still belong to England.

[TylerGred]

This dude went to Iraq on his own accord looking for work. *Pardon my insensitivity but, MORON! *Did he not see the war on the news? *No sympathy here. *His dad blames Bush? *Proves my theory that stupidity is genetic.


While I feel bad for his family, I do agree with you. I don't see how you can blame Bush for his death. They claim the murder was in retaliation for the prison scandal, however I don't recall any prison scandal when they murdered Daniel Pearl. They are just looking for excuses for these horrible murders.

[Phil]

I wanted to start a new thread but I don't like talking about political and current events...BUT

Did any of you catch the short film that was on HBO or Showtime, where it shows a guy and a girl getting interrogated about terrorism? The girl was Maggie Gyllenhaal, Jake's "Donnie Darko" sister. It was shocking to say the least...
Anyone see it? It was on at like 1:40 to 1:50 in the morning EST.

[Fred_Plowman]

Bill has some interesting points.. One mans Terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.. But Im on the other team so Im rooting for the new world order??? wow.. never thought I would condone such a thing.. Funny thing is I wasnt going to vote at all.. But now Im voting just so Kerry doesnt become president.. This Iraq deal solidified my resolve. It is very important that we stay strong militarily and Kerry doesnt have that capacity..

[J.R. Hudson]

I have to concur with Exfilms. Anyone over there currently THAT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE is playing with fire. Journalists, Red Cross, Contractors...

What the fuck are you thinking going over there? IRAQI civilians that are being swept up in this turmoil should also know not to hang around. Put this way, if for months and months I know a foriegn army is coming to bomb and oust the government IM MOVING. Im not sitting around with my wife and 4 year old in our house waiting for a bomb to drop, nor am I sitting aorund as insurgents and the army wage war outside next to my favorite taco shop.

If Im not involved in the fight and am IN THE MIDDLE; I'm audi.

I too have the utmost respect for our soldiers, and as stated before IT IS THEM I SUPPORT. They dont want to be there; but should also know that when you join up in the Armed Services your ass belongs to the government.

As for the video; yeah, thats disturbing. I mean shoot my ass or if you are going to be-head me get a sword or something. Damn. I feel his parents pain but you cannot blame Bush.

[Scott_Spears]

Fred,

Why do you think Kerry can't run the military?

Kerry has served his country in war and been awarded the Purple Heart. (People can quibble on the number and if the last one was worthy or not, but hey they guy has three, so even if you lose one that that's two times he was wounded for his country.) Bush did his time in the National Guard, never saw enemy fire and kind of disappeared before his tour was up. (Some say he was dodging drug tests, but who really knows.) Kerry has spent years on the Senate Armed Services Committee. Bush never had that kind of experience coming into the Oval Office. On the surface, it looks like Kerry has a edge over Bush the candidare of 2000.

If you're basing your opinion on the misleading Bush ad, then your need to re-read my previous message to Kai in this thread.

If anything, I think Bush is creating a weaker military. He's spread our forces out too far.
- He's pulled troops out of Afganistan and away from the hunt for Osama.
- Bush took 700 million away from the Afganistan war to start planning the war in Iraq without consulting Congress. That's borderline illegal.
- Fresh from the presses, Bush is pulling 3500 troops out of South Korea to go to Iraq. Don't forget, we know North Korea has WMDs in the form of nukes and they're crazier than bedbugs.
- Troops were promised only one year of "boots on the ground" in Iraq and that promise has been broken. You can say it's wartime, but this just goes to show Bush and Co. don't know what they're doing. Troops are not going to re-up for service. Recruitment is dropping.
- Oh, here's a good one, Bush has moved to cut the combat bonus from $250/month to $125/month. Yeah, that's going make the guys serving out country happy. That's really paying them back for they're blood, sweat and tears.

So do really think Bush is good for the military? He lied to them about WMDs and links to 9/11 to get them into Iraq. I think I'd feel used.

Am I mega Kerry fan? No, but Bush is ruining this country and I'd almost be willing to vote for trained monkey than see him spend 4 more years sinking the US into a deep whole.

And don't ask me about his domestic policy.

Scott

[J.R. Hudson]

That was a well put take. Solid. (Im not being sarcastic) I like when someone does their homework and lays out the facts with out predujice. When I heard they were pulling troops out of Korea to send to IRAQ I was like WTF?

The thing for me with Bush (and I hate to dumb this down) is that I never looked at him and thought "There's a leader I'd follow..." You know what I mean?

[kai]

So do really think Bush is good for the military? *He lied to them about WMDs

What about the Sarin and Mustard that just surfaced today? Everyone knew Saddam had WMD... he used them years ago. The issue was where they were now... and obviously they're still out there...

They probably are buried in the desert or in Syria right now, being brought back in one by one on a camel.

[TylerGred]

They probably are buried in the desert or in Syria right now, being brought back in one by one on a camel.

Wasn't there going to be an attack in Jordan with three car bombs that had chemicals in them, but they were stopped at a check point. I am pretty sure I remember reading that the chemicals were traced back to Syria and they were trying to make connections to Iraq with them. I don't really know where that lead to as I haven't heard about lately.

[Scott_Spears]

Kai & Tyler,


The single shell with Sarin gas is just that. A single shell. I heard General Kimmet say that most likely the Iraqi's who used that shell didn't even know what they had. David Kay, UN Weapons Inspector, said that it was most likely a shell that was overlooked. I don't think this makes a good case for WMDs. I don't hear anybody, even Rumsfeld who didn't want comment, saying anything like that.



Tyler,

" Wasn't there going to be an attack in Jordan with three car bombs that had chemicals in them, but they were stopped at a check point. I am pretty sure I remember reading that the chemicals were traced back to Syria and they were trying to make connections to Iraq with them. I don't really know where that lead to as I haven't heard about lately."

The chemicals were things like acids and they like, not biological or chemical weapons you'd associate with WMDs. There is a link to Iraq, but most people in the intell community say they were trained after the US invaded Iraq. Hmmm, does that mean we're safer after Saddam is gone? I don't think so.

Scott

[J.R. Hudson]

Im not a gambling man, but I would guarantee Saddam has/had WMD. No mistake on that one. I recently finished a book titled THE THREATENING STORM - The Case for War against Saddam Hussien and he's bad people. You'd be a fool to think he did not have WMD and would continue to pursue even higher levels of WMD.

[David Jimerson]

Iraq never declared that it had a shell of that type (a 155mm binary) . . . aside from showing definitively (for the 150th time, about) that Iraq was not in compliance with UN resolutions, it raises a whole host of other issues about its programs.

The Iraqis who used it may not have known what they had, but they do know where they got it, and now they DO know what it is, after all the news coverage. More will appear.

[TylerGred]

Scott,

According to what I read the weapons they had in their cars where capable of killing 80,000 people. That sounds more powerful than your run of the mill acids as you claim.

[TylerGred]

From Newsmax.com:

In early April, Jordanian authorities foiled an al-Qaida plot to kill 80,000 people in a chemical weapons attack in Amman.

According to one of the conspirators, whose confession was broadcast on Jordanian TV, al-Qaida WMD specialist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who reportedly was last seen in a chilling video beheading Nick Berg, trained and outfitted the WMD attackers in pre-war Iraq.

Like notorious terrorists Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas, Zarqawi enjoyed sanctuary in Baghdad, courtesy of Saddam.

Jordanian TV coverage of the Zarqawi plot included video footage of hundreds of gallon jugs containing chemical weapons that had been intercepted 75 miles from the Syriian border, where much of Saddam's pre-war WMD stockpile is believed to have been hidden.

The Zarqawi revelation comes on the heels of the April 26 explosion at a suspected chemical weapons factory in Baghdad, just as a U.S. weapons team arrived to inspect its contents.

Disguised as a "perfume factory," the facility was booby-trapped, investigators believe, to destroy evidence of whatever was inside.

We won't be surprised if, in the coming weeks, more sarin-laden shells are uncovered in Iraq. But in the meantime, the media focus on the Abu Ghraib prison scandal has obscured that fact that the WMD case against Saddam is already compelling and continues to grow.

[J.R. Hudson]

Nice. Tks Tyler

[TylerGred]

Newsmax is a very biased towards the right, however I originally saw this on Fox and read about it on msnbc.com. I am looking for that article right now, but having trouble finding it.

[TylerGred]

I should point out that while they are much more conservative, they still are a very credible news site. Many of there stories are on Fox and MsNBC. In fact, I believe Newsmax is the 4th largest news site on the internet.

[J.R. Hudson]

Yeah, I caught that:

...media focus on the Abu Ghraib prison scandal has obscured that fact that the WMD case against Saddam is already compelling and continues to grow.

[Scott_Spears]

Tyler,

Thanks for finding the article, but as you point out newsmax is fairly right winged. Let me deconstruct the article a bit:

_______________________________________________
" In early April, Jordanian authorities foiled an al-Qaida plot to kill 80,000 people in a chemical weapons attack in Amman.

According to one of the conspirators, whose confession was broadcast on Jordanian TV, al-Qaida WMD specialist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who reportedly was last seen in a chilling video beheading Nick Berg, trained and outfitted the WMD attackers in pre-war Iraq."
__________________________________________________

How do they know al-Zarqawi trained attackers pre-war?

__________________________________________________
"Like notorious terrorists Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas, Zarqawi enjoyed sanctuary in Baghdad, courtesy of Saddam.

Jordanian TV coverage of the Zarqawi plot included video footage of hundreds of gallon jugs containing chemical weapons that had been intercepted 75 miles from the Syriian border, where much of Saddam's pre-war WMD stockpile is believed to have been hidden."
__________________________________________________

These chemical jugs were things like sulfuric acid which can be considered a weapon, but is not in the same classification as bio weapons or nukes. If you use this kind of thinking then just about any thing is a weapon. Household cleaners can be weapons. Again they use the word "believed" to be hidden. At this point, I don't trust anybody who says anything about WMDs. Show me pictures from a bunch of different souces. Colin Powel went before the U.N. with pictures of what he said was a WMD site which was totally discredited at a later date. The metal tubes that were supposedly for enriching uranium were discredited.

_______________________________________________

"The Zarqawi revelation comes on the heels of the April 26 explosion at a suspected chemical weapons factory in Baghdad, just as a U.S. weapons team arrived to inspect its contents.

Disguised as a "perfume factory," the facility was booby-trapped, investigators believe, to destroy evidence of whatever was inside."

__________________________________________________ _
If it's true, then great, but there's way too much conjecture going on here. We have forensic teams that can analysis bombs and tells the chemical signatures, so let's get a team of them to confirm or debunk this. If they find evidence of WMDs then we have a smoking gun, but I don't think people in the press shouldn't be, how can I say this...making shit up.

________________________________________________
"We won't be surprised if, in the coming weeks, more sarin-laden shells are uncovered in Iraq. But in the meantime, the media focus on the Abu Ghraib prison scandal has obscured that fact that the WMD case against Saddam is already compelling and continues to grow."
__________________________________________________ _

The case is not compelling. If it were why isn't Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfeweitz, Cheney and Powell out there screaming their heads off. Again, I watched Gen. Kimmet say that most likely the Iraqi didn't even know that shell had sarin in it. Rumsfeld at the Hertiage Foundation said we shouldn't jump to conclusions, so I don't think the so-called press should be trumpeting this as compelling case when the Bush administration isn't doing so.

Don't trust them. Don't trust anybody. I apprectiate that you went out and found this article, but you need to do more research. You know they're a conservative site, so take some time and look hard at what they say.

Scott

[kai]

Fact still remains, Saddam at one time did in fact have WMD, and used them against his own people. One must be logically dense to think they suddenly "disappeared" after that time. *He used them on his people. Mass graves. The Iranian war. Etc. That Sarin shell didn't appear out of thin air. It came from somewhere.. and obviously from Saddam's regime, proving that they weren't all destroyed. I can guarantee on the premise of common sense that there's no way one single shell "slipped through the cracks" and somehow found it's way into the hands of terrorists by chance.

He had PLENTY of time to hide them. Who's to say he didn't bury them all out in the middle of the vast deserts in the midst of all the hoopla surrounding the ramp up to war. He knew it was coming. Shoot, they uncovered a whole FLEET of his Mig jets buried in the sand in the middle of the desert!

http://www.newsmax.com/images/headlines/mig25a.jpg

That, or he shipped them off to his terrorist-harboring buddies bordering his country for safekeeping.

I'm betting it's a little bit of both. The man isn't innocent of any charges...

[kai]

X Marks the Spot

The discovery of the buried Iraqi jet fighters illustrates the problem faced by U.S. inspection teams searching Iraq for weapons of mass destruction. Iraq is larger in size than California, and the massive deserts south and west of Baghdad were used by Saddam Hussein to hide weapons during the first Gulf war.

U.S. intelligence sources have already uncovered several mass grave burial sites in the open deserts with an estimated 10,000 dead hidden there. In addition, Iraq previously hid SCUD missiles, chemical weapons and biological warheads by burying them under the desert sand. U.N. inspection teams found the weapons in the early 1990s after detailed information of the exact locations was obtained.

Top U.S. weapons inspector Dr. David Kay is known to favor human intelligence as the primary means to find Iraq's hidden treasure trove of weapons and secrets.

While there are rumors of Iraqi chemical and biological weapons being shipped to nearby Syria, the weapons may very well still remain inside Iraq buried under the vast desert wastelands.

Some critics of the Bush administration have claimed that the inability of U.S. forces to uncover weapons of mass destruction is proof that the president misled the nation into the war with Iraq. However, in recent days the critics have fallen silent as word quietly leaked from Iraq that major discoveries have already been made and are now being documented completely. Bush administration officials are keeping any such discoveries secret for the moment.

[Fred_Plowman]

i agree that one would think News Max leans to the right. Or could it be most all the others lean so far to the left that it is thought that true news reporting would by virtue be considered right wing when comparing it to most other media outlets.. lol

[kai]

lol good way of looking at it

[J.R. Hudson]

lol never thought of it like that!

[David Jimerson]

NewsMax is right-wing. They don't deny it.

But the above certainly applies to Fox. Suddenly a major news organization doesn't automatically refer to conservatives as troglodytic knuckle-draggers as a matter of reflex, and they get branded as "extremists."

[speedbump]

I finally got around to viewing the Berg video.

This really makes me want to college-educate ALL of their women.

[Fred_Plowman]

Dave is correct Fox does seem somewhat moreso independent from the others.. but by virtue of keeping up with the Joneses they have to report on all the same stuff all the others do. Now in consideration they may be having to create a news story headlining the matter at hand although it was originally brought to the table by a Network with a leftist agenda

[ktdmoviemaker]

I can't stand to watch it. The vibe of the whole video makes me wanna throw up. It's so sad that happened to that guy. I don't know his background story, but NO ONE deserves to die like that. The people who did it are psychotic maniacs, with a taste for blood. Pure evil, to cut off another human beings head. For what a religious cause, or retaliation over prison abuse? This is a modern day Vietnam for my generation and when it's all said and done, what do you think is really gonna change? People need to wake up and see what is going on.

On the media player the time of the video was like 5:37. When it got to about 3:35 I thought, this poor guy only has two minutes to live. And for someone to say they don't have sympathy for him cause he was stupid to go there in the first place is cold. We cannot judge his actions for going over there. This is a guy who had a family and was like us an American citizen, for all I know. We cannot judge someone. I don't think he wanted to lose his head, fellas.

[Fred_Plowman]

I think that was the point of this whole thread.. People comparing slapping some POW around with radicals beheading people in the name of their god. Folks they are coming for you next. Like in Israel we as Americans will see fanatics run into our shopping malls and exploding bombs strapped to their body. These people are not peace loving.. We are at war.. A christian war... Does this scare you? It is the muslim versus the christian and we are outnumbered.. We do however have all the technology, ie. bombs, planes, missles... Thank God..

[TylerGred]

We do however have all the technology, ie. bombs, planes, missles... Thank God..

...need the word "big" in front of every single weapon you named to describe it more accurately...

It's like Dennis Miller said, America has a long fuse and at the end of that fuse is a big bomb that's going to kill you if you piss us off.

[J.R. Hudson]

I agree completely. I think people have forgotten (Generally speaking) about the events of 9/11. That was an attack on Americans on American soil.

The Radical Muslim is pissed at America as is the most of the Arab nations, and N. Korea, and France, and Germany, and Mexico, and Cuba and god knows who else.

[TylerGred]

The Radical Muslim is pissed at America as is the most of the Arab nations, and N. Korea, and France, and Germany, and Mexico, and Cuba and god knows who else.



At least we still have the Brits.

[J.R. Hudson]

Australia too as far as I know. Canada! Definatley Canada!

Oh yeah, and Texas. :D

[Guest]

My big problem with all of this "did Saddam have WMD" stuff is that he most likely got them from us in the mid 80s to fight Iran, when the now beloved Reagan gave them to him.

Quoting Newsmax...jesus. No realities.

My problem with the war in Iraq is not that I don't think the middle east could benefit from one democracy, but we have an indept administration who didn't know that there were three different kinds of Muslims in Iraq. We didn't have a plan to go beyond two months. And, I'm sorry, but the reason everything is "messy" now is our own fault. We stayed longer than promised, people are antsy, uneasy with our occupation and revolting. Who wouldn't, if you didn't seen an end in sight to war and chaos? It's human nature.

We need to look at ourselves, those on this board who are Americans, and wonder if Mr. Bush really gives a shit about Iraqis. And look at ourselves and ask whether or not we have both the clout and the reasons to keep with this war. I hate polls, but 80-90% of Iraqis want us out. Is this democracy we are attempting to create for them or us?

I despise religion in most forms, and with our evangelical president, we must wonder if his reason for war in the middle east has some biblical elements within: Revenge for Desert Storm and the assassination attempt against Bush 1, and for the stablization of the middle east for the second coming, securing Israel. Our president is no compassionate man, nor is he intelligent.

And certainly, the attack on Berg is atrocious, but so are the abuses in Abu Garab prison and our war of aggression. Violence, murder, control are the root of evil in this world, and until we can shine the mirror on ourselves as well, as we are in a way, terrorists as well, can we end the violent cycle we are in.

Lastly, one must always question. The whys are necessary in these times. Why divert attention from eliminating al Qaeda and go to Iraq? There are dozens of horribly improverished nations in this world, so we go to Iraq, where those mass graves were made when Saddam was an ally of ours. And North Korea...umm, shooting test missles at the U.S. over a year ago. Saddam was a despicible man, a terrorist yes, but when we are on a war against those who terrorize, the most grave threats we have today are with Saudi Arabia and her allies, who helped fund the 9/11 attacks. And we must ask HOW and WHY most Americans believe Saddam had something to do with those horrendous attacks in NY, DC, and PA. We are in a shitstorm of lies, deceptions, and insecurities right now, and the only way to make sense of it all is to make illusions and to pin-point the whys together.

[J.R. Hudson]

Well put. *Kind of goes back to me saying "I wish we were not even there and I wish we would just ignore the rest of the planet."

I cant stand the thought of American/British (Coalition) troops dying for something I really dont care about. If the IRAQI people want us out then we should leave and watch them turn into Somalia or some other Civil War Torn country.

Ive said this before; No one is ever happy. We get shit for NOT stepping in and we get SHIT for stepping in. If the IRAQI people are so concerned then step up and join the fight and help HELP yourselves.

Im not a big fan of Bush (Nor Kerry for that matter) but you can be sure Im not voting for Bush (Didnt the first time) but it also comes down to "Well who the fuck am I going to vote for now? Nader?"

But, whomever gets into office, I will support (not necassarily the man; but the nation). Just as I do now and as Democracy has decided (well and Florida). Support doesnt mean agreeing with every single decision and surely doesnt mean liking it.

We have alot of problems on our side that need to be fixed. Id like to step back and focus on America (not out interests internationally) and how can we better serve ourselves.

And then, when someone fucks with us, it'll count. Then no one will ever say THEY DIDNT HAVE IT COMING.

[Guest]

I think if we had a better, more strategic plan to take out Saddam and his gov't, which was a small part of the population of Iraq, and not gone in as liberators, with the idea that we'd be welcomed, and at least be skeptical, we might not be in this mess. It's hubris by Bush, and the hubris of Islamic fundamentalists that has led us down this long and winding road.

Why is it that religion is always at the center of such evil? We're essentially in age-old battle of Christian v. Muslim, when it should've been just the removal of a dictator who we should never have sided with, and should've removed from power years ago. But alas.

And after Vietnam, we should've been more skeptical, no? Saving an entire populous from something which we can't even clearly define (communism in Vietnam, terrorism in Iraq) is an impossibility.

The elephant in the living room right now is why there are so few allies right now with the U.S. I don't believe it's that other countries don't care about Iraqis, but they also don't have the censored news reports that we do, and perhaps were skeptical of our rapid change of pace from Afghanistan to Iraq.

Do I think Kerry will fix anything? Who's to say. But when we are draining our entire economy with a war that I didn't agree with then, and despise now, do I think someone less religious and perhaps a fresher face to those countries in the UN might change minds? I actually do. We will be stupid to think things will get better with Bush, so I am being my usual idealist self and will change horses in mid stream with the HOPE that someone else can make the appeal to the world on our behalf. We desperately need it.

[J.R. Hudson]

BTW I removed the DOUBLE POST (It was a Duplicate).

I can dig what youre saying and totally agree with everything you just said. That is an intelligent way to observe the situation.

The only thing I can offer on that is in regards to IRAN. Unfortunatley times change and we helped IRAQ (Saddam) in the 80's due to the Ayatolla declaring a holy war on our ass. Can't say it was the right thing to do, but we did it.

It was the Ayatolla who declared we were the GREAT SATAN and ISRAEL the LITTLE SATAN. Remember, it was IRAN who siezed the American Embassy in Tehran (remember the hostage crisis?).

We helped IRAQ to secure oil resources, preventing one (or combination of) power and protect ISRAEL.

Incidentally, it was not just the United States. France accounted for at least 40% of arms exports to them and also sold IRAQ their first Nuclear Reactor (knowing that energy was not the first concern). Germany sold weaopns to IRAQ and the GCC states contributed billions of dollars in that war against IRAN.

[Guest]

I certainly do agree with your accounts of the Iran hostage situation, and the horrible situation in general. As well as the US and France selling arms. I'm just dismayed because you KNOW that by aiding those who can benefit us NOW will only bite us in the end, no? You think the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan will side with the US for long?

Ehh, I don't know. If things weren't always so immediate, which cannot be changed, and we could sit and think about who we're aiding in the process of helping us and others, perhaps our deeds wouldn't find us when we least expected it. Maybe we'll learn next time.

Oil and religion...ehhh, we need to drive Priuses and be athiests if we want to survive this century.

[J.R. Hudson]

No doubt. It kills me as well to think of who we have aided and where it has come back to haunt us.

Im thinking FIND ANOTHER OIL SOURCE/ENERGY SOURCE and let the middle east dry up and turn to DUST (No disrespect to the people of the Middle East). Without OIL there are no Majic Kingdoms. (Notice how I spelled MAgic with a 'J'; I'm so clever)

[Fred_Plowman]

Folks around here are perty smart..
I wanted to say the religous aspect is from the persepective as muslims. I would propose for you to fathom for a moment and not be selfish and put yourself in their minds for a moment.
Arabs hate Israel and Jews period. They regard the united states and New York in particular as New Jerusalem.. What can you expect when Madelline Albright a professed jew is our Representation worldwide(past tense).
Not going anti semetic here not at all.. All im saying is as Americans we are dumbed down by our press.. Purposeful some may argue.. We were never told why the serbs invaded yugoslavia.. 95% of the population has no idea why the IRA (irish) blow up the Brits.. and they dont want to really educate you of why arabs hate americans..
If you watch some moreso indepth round table discussions etc.. you may find or see this information on TV but it is obscure.
They are pissed off simply because in 1948 I believe was the year.. The united nations was created. Their first order of business was to create israel by moving European Jews there.. They still are trying to populate Israel with fund raising programs you can even see here on TV.
So ok now the Arabs are pissed about basic biblical repatriotion and annexation of Israel and Jews.. They will fight now for a thousand more years to attempt to rectify..
There only weapon is terrorism or so called terrorism as to them they fight for freedom and liberation of Israel which arabs regard as holy as well.
Again when we talk about the truth it is sometimes misconstrued as anti semitism. I am not attempting to promote or condone that with my comments.. I just wanted to attempt to educate folks on what is in an arabs mind.. Or so I have studied.
So yes it is a religous war but moreso convoluted than my attempt to bring religious reasons into my last post.

[J.R. Hudson]

Seems odd that they would choose to put ISRAEL right smack dab in the middle of a place where they hate them (religiously speaking).

[Fred_Plowman]

wow.. you opened a can of worms there.. philisophically speaking. And I dont want to be marked a conspiracy theorist or (cabal) < keyword. I agree John.. But if they are them or an extension of then it would make sense.

[J.R. Hudson]

Well, I have always wondered why the real estate was there. makes no sense whatsoever.

[Fred_Plowman]

well if we think outside of the box they will cry and bitch and point fingers and call you names to assasinate your character.. They call it a racial issue when it isnt .. It is cultural, it is economical .. It is the movers and shakers.. It is the golden rule

[Zoomforce]

sounds like trouble....

[J.R. Hudson]

well if we think outside of the box they will cry and bitch and point fingers and call you names to assasinate your character.. They call it a racial issue when it isnt .. It is cultural, it is economical .. It is the movers and shakers.. It is the golden rule

??? huh ???

[Fred_Plowman]

It is trouble.. And I didnt want to even go there.. but the truth hurts and that is why we are there.. plain and simple.. When they flew planes into the "World Trade Center" ( UN, world bank, New world order) They flew planes in their mind into the Headquarters for the new jeruselam, they attacked Kuhn, Schiff and Loeb, They attacked Goldman Sachs; not you and me as americans. Now its my war too. One I didnt want to fight.One I didnt want to become involved in. One I didnt want my fellow americans to fall for.We took sides in a religous war for financial and political reasons and we will have to fight it now for the rest of our existence as a country. If you dont believe me .. Ask an Arab what his reasoning and slant on the situation is.

[Fred_Plowman]

John I was referring to the war between arabs and jews.. However the alphabet box wants you to think it is our war.. They want you to think it is a different issue. And I guess it is now cause we chose to get involved.. Thats what I meant

[Barry_Green]

Well, I have always wondered why the real estate was there. *makes no sense whatsoever.

You can't possibly understand it, if you try to view it in modern-day terms. *You've got to view it from the perspective of thousands of years of cultural history. *In Israeli culture, that spot of land is the "Holy land", promised to them by God Himself. *Jerusalem is a holy city to at least three of the world's major religions. *And (I may be getting a bit off here) the tribe and nations of Israel occupied that land before being wiped out and carried off into captivity.

So when the UN designated land for the restoration of the nation of Israel, that was where it needed to be -- that was the land that God had claimed for the Israeli's (speaking from an Israeli perspective).

Us newfangled Americans don't have much of the concept of "birthright", but as far as the Jewish people go, as near as I can tell, that land is their birthright, and it is an inherent portion of their identity.

So now, contrast that with the Arabs. *Why do the Israeli's and the Arabs hate each other so much? *You can trace that back to two brothers, Esau and Jacob, sons of Isaac, son of Abraham (as in, the Three Patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob). *In the Bible, Esau was the firstborn, and Jacob was his younger brother. *Esau was kind of ... well, not sharp-witted, I guess you'd say. *Jacob was razor-sharp. *Esau was hairy, Jacob was not.

Esau got hungry out in the field, and Jacob said "Here, I'll sell you this mess of pottage in exchange for your birthright." *Esau thought about it and apparently thought to himself "that's some mighty tempting pottage", so he sold his birthright. *So when it came time for Isaac to die and pronounce his blessings onto his sons, Jacob (with the help of his mother) tricked Isaac -- he put goat fur (or something, I don't recall) on his face and hands, so blind old Isaac would feel all that hair and wouldn't know he wasn't Esau. *And Isaac pronounced great blessings on Jacob (thinking it was his firstborn, Esau). *And Esau was ticked off.

Later, Jacob's name was changed...

... to "Israel".

Esau and his descendants (collectively, the Arab nations) feel that Jacob stole their birthright. *Jacob feels that Esau sold it to him.

And they've been at each others' throats for thousands of years, ever since.

They will fight over that land, and over that birthright, until one of their cultures no longer values it. *Any bets on when that might happen?

[Fred_Plowman]

Thanks Barry.. I appreciate your insight

[Barry_Green]

For fun (and accuracy-checking) I looked up the original story in Genesis. *Seems Esau and Jacob were actually twins, and they fought so much in the womb that their mother had to ask God what in the world was wrong with them. *When they were born, Esau was born first, but Jacob came out literally holding on to Esau's heel.

So this battle started before they were born, and will probably go on for quite a while longer.

[J.R. Hudson]

Tks Barry. That is exactly the kind of 'chat' I like; well thought out and backed with facts (historical anyway). For the record, I was familiar with the HOLY LAND part.

I watched a DISCOVERY special where they came to the conclusion that the PALESTINES were the first to populate that land. I dont know enough about it to counter any side of the debate but I thought it was interesting enough to note.

You know what sucks? It comes down to "Can't we all just chill?"

Naw. Too simple I guess. Im still not buying FREDS last takes though! :D

[speedbump]

This war is NOT a Muslim vs Christian conflict... it is a radical Muslim vs all other Non-Muslims struggle.

The roots of the *modern* character of this struggle arose from 1924, when Kamal Ataturk (spelling! :P ) dissolved the Caliphate and dragged Turkey into the modern world. The Muslim Brotherhood was formed in 1928 to counter the modernization movement forming in the Muslim world, and the Brotherhood continues to employ terrorist methods to fight all influences which do not further the desire of their membership to spread Islam all over the globe. The homicidal maniacs who are the most strident voices in the Muslim world want nothing less than to drag us all back to the glory days of 8th century Islamic empire.

That is really what is happening here; we are not warring to seize the oil fields of Iraq, but rather to stomp out radical Islam. Saudi Arabia, Iran, and other hot spots are all going to have to be dealt with eventually, because the nut cases who fester in those places simply will not give up until they own the Earth. So this conflict in Iraq, tragic as it is, is only the first step in a generation-long campaign. I think (and this is only my opinion) that Bush and Company chose to go after Saddam because they thought he was weak enough to beat relatively quickly, and we had plenty of compelling reasons to do so. Strategically, Iraq is a fabulous place to conduct operations from if you want to dominate the rest of the Middle East.

Because the brutal truth is that the civilized world will have to impose order by force in the Middle East. There really is no other way to get control of a horde of hate-filled religious fanatics.

The coalition has made terrible mistakes in their conduct of this war. We've been too nice, and worried too much about being liked, rather than respected. This war is for Keepsies, and we aren't nearly concerned enough about the steady loss of marbles...

[J.R. Hudson]

"The coalition has made terrible mistakes in their conduct of this war. We've been too nice, and worried too much about being liked, rather than respected."

Interesting point. We have been all too worried about being 'nice' about it when in reality we should shock and awe the hell out of them.

[Fred_Plowman]

Id drop 1000 swine like bombs on their village.. And drop millions of leaflets with gay sex..lol
What else freaks them out??
The islamo fascists that is ;)

[J.R. Hudson]

That would freak them out; hell, that'd freak me out. It's be like the movie MAGNOLIA except not really.

[Fred_Plowman]

wow .. I gotta see that movie.. ;D lol

[Fred_Plowman]

Its called Psyops.. I was listening to Michael Savage last night and he was talking about how in WW2 we had the propoganda.. Many of us are familiar with this. The propoganda posters would show our enemy Japanese or Germans in a not so good light whereas they would accentuate features etc. To wage a propoganda war delivering a message that would gain sympathy to those on our side.. I have studied propoganda somewhat..
One must have a different message for the different segments of population.. They have one message for sympathizers, one for those who are ont he fence, one for the enemy.. I think we should throw out the political correctness and use this very valuable tool to win this war.. The Pinko journalist will not let it happen with their politically correct hurt no ones feeling not even our enemy that puts a bomb in our mothers house.. Im stopping here cause my mind is wandering all over the map with anger...

[David Jimerson]

One thing is true -- for better or for worse, all the Nazi and Japanese versions of al Jazeera did not last any longer than it took for a B-24 to reach them.

[TylerGred]

One thing is true -- for better or for worse, all the Nazi and Japanese versions of al Jazeera did not last any longer than it took for a B-24 to reach them.

Haha. So true, David.