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View Full Version : Canon 5D MKII a viable replacement for an EX1 + LEX?...



Dave Draper
09-30-2008, 02:56 PM
Being that the Canon 5D MKII is capable of shooting 1080p @ 38.6 Mbits/sec, has a full-frame sensor, and utilizes 35mm lenses, is it a viable replacement for those who own an EX1 + LEX? Presuming Canon updates the firmware, that is - giving users the ability to shoot at their desired frame-rates, shutter speeds, etc...

DD.

mbwkrause
10-01-2008, 08:22 AM
- giving users the ability to shoot at their desired frame-rates, shutter speeds, etc...
DD.
Thatīs not going to happen so itīs a moot questions. Besides, the audio capabilities of the 5DII arenīt even close to professional standards.

journalist
10-01-2008, 09:09 AM
Just wonder, how suitable 5 DMII is for Pal-countries? 30 P or 30i? seems to suit poorly to 25 fps? No to talk about mixing this stuff to other PAL-cameras. As I understand we need to wait the next model goming sometimes in future?

Dave Draper
10-01-2008, 10:35 AM
Besides, the audio capabilities of the 5DII arenīt even close to professional standards.

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I usually record the audio of a project I'm working on to a separate device, then sync it in post... So the audio capabilities of the 5D don't really matter to me - It could just as well not record audio at all.

I'm also wondering if the whole "30p debate" is as much of a problem as everyone is making out, being that you can always render your video quite acceptably at 25 or 23.976fps, anyway.

DD.

NickG
10-02-2008, 01:22 AM
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I usually record the audio of a project I'm working on to a separate device, then sync it in post... So the audio capabilities of the 5D don't really matter to me - It could just as well not record audio at all.

DD.

Fair point, but audio abilities do matter to lots of others - at least I assume that's why manufacturers go to the trouble and expense of providing them on their high-end cameras.

My own theory (backed up by years of data-free speculation!) is that Canon is sticking its toe in the water to test the temperature. If the 5DII becomes a camera of choice for large numbers of videographers, I expect an audio-capable follow-up some time (1-2 years)

AshG
10-02-2008, 10:48 AM
Have you guys ever seen a 30P to 24P or 25P conversion? It looks NASTY.




ash =o)

OSV
10-02-2008, 01:47 PM
Being that the Canon 5D MKII is capable of shooting 1080p @ 38.6 Mbits/sec

there are some questions about the quality of that 39Mbps... it doesn't have any b-frames, it doesn't use cabac encoding, and there might be issues with the quicktime mov container tweaking the gamma.

the fact that the bitstream has less compression than, say, avchd, is not necessarily bad, but the thing to remember is that there is more to the picture quality equation than just bitrate.

can you live without a zoom lens?

DaveEP
10-03-2008, 02:47 AM
there are some questions about the quality of that 39Mbps... it doesn't have any b-frames, it doesn't use cabac encoding, and there might be issues with the quicktime mov container tweaking the gamma.

the fact that the bitstream has less compression than, say, avchd, is not necessarily bad, but the thing to remember is that there is more to the picture quality equation than just bitrate.

can you live without a zoom lens?

But can you live the ability to have a 50mm f1.2 on your video one minute, then a 16mm f2.8 the next, then a 600mm f4 the next, and then (say) a 200 f2.8 the next? Alll without adapters.

Dave Draper
10-03-2008, 03:33 AM
can you live without a zoom lens?

I can live without a zoom lens, sure... I primarily use primes in both photography and videography, anyway.

But OK, I can't live with inferior quality video. :)

Has anyone done any IQ comparison tests between the video capabilities of the 5D MKII and today's prosumer camcorders?

DD.

OSV
10-03-2008, 09:14 AM
i'd love to play with primes for video, but i can't use it for the sports stuff that i shoot... i can't make money using primes only on a video camera.

there is so much bitrate at 39Mbps that the quality is probably going to be o.k., if there is a workaround for the rumoured gamma shift issue... the good news is that since it uses less compression, it might playback easier on your computer... less decoding by the cpu, but more hard drive throughput.

John Godden
10-05-2008, 05:58 PM
This cam will likely not be 'upgraded' to better audio or frame rates or ......... fill in the blank, as it would seriously chimp the pro video product line. This cam has fabulous video albeit somewhat constrained by the codec and other 'features'.

Canon is smart and not about to kill their prosumer video division.

JMO :-)
JohnG

MrFluffy
10-09-2008, 10:17 AM
Two words. Rolling Shutter. Wont be upgtrtading my 5dmk1 for it.

RobS
10-23-2008, 11:10 AM
While I suspect the video capabilities of the MkII are directed towards combination photo/video journalists, I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the potential for Canon to expand the features of the product to embrace video/filmic applications. With that huge sensor and an array of splendid glass, the potential is enormous with camera enhancements that are not technically challenging. Think about shooting 24fps with an F1.2 lens and no light-robbing ground glass in a $3000 camera. Wow.

Remember that Canon's consumer video group rocked the world with their HV20 a couple years ago...a consumer camcorder with 24fps capabilities. Was it perfect? Of course not. But there's been some splendid films assembled by people who can't afford a full HVX200 kit. Some people get all soft in their socks about Red - but then quickly dismiss the enormous potential of the direction Canon just showed us.

I'd like to encourage this group to continue assembling the 'wish list' for the MkII software upgrade or perhaps the MkIII. These boards are more influential than most of us realize in directing product directions when the comments are focused. And the Canon engineers are demonstrably innovative and daring.

My short list of requested enhancements:
24 fps
Live 480i output option for inexpensive LCD monitoring/audio sync (already available?)
Longer clip length
A basic 70/100 zebra display

Further wishes:
Higher resolution video (2K? 4K?)
Continue pushing the bitrate as high as the CF will support

If the camera could be used as the central imaging element, coupled with external monitors and frame-synced audio recorders, I believe it would address markets far beyond traditional DSLRs.

(Full disclosure - I have the original 5D, not the MkII.)

bronxjragon
10-23-2008, 08:30 PM
Can someone explain to me why the colors bleed in the footage? DOF is great and all but is the footage usable if the colors bleed together and can't be fixed in post? Just wondering from a technical point of view cuz I'd love to get one of these if its worth it. Discrete filming in NYC would be AWESOME when cops and park staff tell you you can't film because you have a shotgun mic (even though they don't understand filming regulations themselves)

Northainan
11-27-2008, 03:18 PM
While I suspect the video capabilities of the MkII are directed towards combination photo/video journalists, I wouldn't dismiss out of hand the potential for Canon to expand the features of the product to embrace video/filmic applications. With that huge sensor and an array of splendid glass, the potential is enormous with camera enhancements that are not technically challenging. Think about shooting 24fps with an F1.2 lens and no light-robbing ground glass in a $3000 camera. Wow.

Remember that Canon's consumer video group rocked the world with their HV20 a couple years ago...a consumer camcorder with 24fps capabilities. Was it perfect? Of course not. But there's been some splendid films assembled by people who can't afford a full HVX200 kit. Some people get all soft in their socks about Red - but then quickly dismiss the enormous potential of the direction Canon just showed us.

I'd like to encourage this group to continue assembling the 'wish list' for the MkII software upgrade or perhaps the MkIII. These boards are more influential than most of us realize in directing product directions when the comments are focused. And the Canon engineers are demonstrably innovative and daring.

My short list of requested enhancements:
24 fps
Live 480i output option for inexpensive LCD monitoring/audio sync (already available?)
Longer clip length
A basic 70/100 zebra display

Further wishes:
Higher resolution video (2K? 4K?)
Continue pushing the bitrate as high as the CF will support

If the camera could be used as the central imaging element, coupled with external monitors and frame-synced audio recorders, I believe it would address markets far beyond traditional DSLRs.

(Full disclosure - I have the original 5D, not the MkII.)


Would the average non technical movie goer care about all those technical specs as long as the movie does not look like it was shot on a home video camera? LOL. I mean when I first saw the footage this morning,I was floored. Then I started getting all technical at looking at the images through a photographer's eye. Then I said wait,I've sold photos to people where they thought it was the greastest photo taken of them where still I saw there could be improvement.( lol)

Sometimes we professionals, we go into overkill where the average customer does not have a "trained eye" to look at the small technical details.

That's why Madison Avenue is ringing Vincent Laforete(sp) phone for assignments,those ad execs know the production quality line is pretty thick between a professional and the regular Joe Blow's and Sally Sue's.

If the majority of the public know what we know then all the camera's that we bought and including the 5DII would still be in the labs. lol.

smartwombat
11-28-2008, 12:29 AM
This cam will likely not be 'upgraded' to better audio
The built-in mic isn't up to much, and if you use an AF or IS lens, picks up the mechanical noise as you'd expect.
Have you tested the audio quality with external mic?
That mic socket sets it apart from the Nikon, and to my mind makes it worth trying.

princigalli
11-30-2008, 09:46 AM
Two words. Rolling Shutter. Wont be upgtrtading my 5dmk1 for it.

I thought there is no rolling shutter

smartwombat
11-30-2008, 12:08 PM
I've seen some really rapid panning that seems to show it.
But if you don't wave the camera about like a machine gun, then it looks OK.
The Nikon seems to show it at even modest pan speeds.

ecking
11-30-2008, 01:45 PM
I thought there is no rolling shutter

Oh it's definetly there, no it's not as bad as the nikons but at least on the model I used it can become evident in what I would consider normal operation of a regular video camera. Whip pans are not what I'd consider normal operation.

princigalli
12-02-2008, 03:27 AM
I just got my Canon 5D mark II. I had very little time to play with it but here are my first negative impressions:

1. manual setting on video is not possible. I was horrified to see the camera change shutter speed, aperture, and ISO without any control on my part. Of course you can lock the exposure by pressing a button, but that's not setting the numbers yourself. Not good.

2. Not very impressed with video. A 264 quicktime is not a great format for such things. Not because of editing, but because of compression and colors, even if the bit rate is very high.

3. Chromatic Aberration. This is a serious problem for Canon because I think they are not capable of producing lens free of that problem at less than $5000. I got a new 85mm L 1.2 and the kit 24-105 F/4 L. The first lens are great for colors and Bokeh, but the chromatic aberrations make the lens unusable in some conditions, mostly open air. The zoom kit lens is pure junk. Chromatic aberrations as bad as Canon pocket tourist camera, and much more aggressive than the 85L.

It looks like if I don'w want chromatic aberration I will need a Sigma prime 150, or the Canon 200mmL1.8. Very frustrating that Canon can't control their Chroma. Nikon at least was able to produce lens with less Chroma Aberration, but all their new cameras correct the Jpegs from such problems.

4. Autofocus while filming. There are manual and automatic options, but only the manual focus seems to be usable.

Emanuel
12-02-2008, 05:01 AM
Have you guys ever seen a 30P to 24P or 25P conversion? It looks NASTY.




ash =o)Did you see those 25p conversions from a 30p native?

http://www.vimeo.com/2069928

http://www.vimeo.com/2072194


Original 30p clip:

http://vimeo.com/2053280

Emanuel
12-02-2008, 05:03 AM
I just got my Canon 5D mark II. I had very little time to play with it but here are my first negative impressions:

1. manual setting on video is not possible. I was horrified to see the camera change shutter speed, aperture, and ISO without any control on my part. Of course you can lock the exposure by pressing a button, but that's not setting the numbers yourself. Not good.

2. Not very impressed with video. A 264 quicktime is not a great format for such things. Not because of editing, but because of compression and colors, even if the bit rate is very high.

3. Chromatic Aberration. This is a serious problem for Canon because I think they are not capable of producing lens free of that problem at less than $5000. I got a new 85mm L 1.2 and the kit 24-105 F/4 L. The first lens are great for colors and Bokeh, but the chromatic aberrations make the lens unusable in some conditions, mostly open air. The zoom kit lens is pure junk. Chromatic aberrations as bad as Canon pocket tourist camera, and much more aggressive than the 85L.

It looks like if I don'w want chromatic aberration I will need a Sigma prime 150, or the Canon 200mmL1.8. Very frustrating that Canon can't control their Chroma. Nikon at least was able to produce lens with less Chroma Aberration, but all their new cameras correct the Jpegs from such problems.

4. Autofocus while filming. There are manual and automatic options, but only the manual focus seems to be usable.And about artifacts?

Audio quality? Did you try any workaround (as far as its obvious limitations) ?

Thanks for your input.

princigalli
12-02-2008, 07:13 AM
And about artifacts?

Audio quality? Did you try any workaround (as far as its obvious limitations) ?

Thanks for your input.

Hi,
it's still too early for me to say because I didn't have time to test the camera extensively. One work around for the limitations concerning manual control while filming is to lock exposure when you are happy with the settings the camera picks at one moment.

I was disappointed with the extremely high amount of noise at 3200 ASA. I don't need 3200 ASA and wish the camera didn't switch to that mode when the lights are down. Also in low light at 1600 or 3200 I think that the colors suffer a lot. At some point I thought I was looking at a 256 color image from the old Amiga times. You can avoid this situation but it's very annoying not being able to set anything up.

When the light is good the video is very good. But it still looks like an MPEG film.

Emanuel
12-02-2008, 07:42 AM
Hi,
it's still too early for me to say because I didn't have time to test the camera extensively. One work around for the limitations concerning manual control while filming is to lock exposure when you are happy with the settings the camera picks at one moment.

I was disappointed with the extremely high amount of noise at 3200 ASA. I don't need 3200 ASA and wish the camera didn't switch to that mode when the lights are down. Also in low light at 1600 or 3200 I think that the colors suffer a lot. At some point I thought I was looking at a 256 color image from the old Amiga times. You can avoid this situation but it's very annoying not being able to set anything up.

When the light is good the video is very good. But it still looks like an MPEG film.Vielen Dank.

What do you mean for MPEG film?

Artifacts? No workaround?

Better or worst than HDV?

Better or worst than 24 Mbit AVCHD (after all, both are H.264) ?

egproductions
12-04-2008, 04:09 PM
can you live without a zoom lens?

Have I missed something? Why can't you use a zoom lens? I know it won't be electronically controlled but I personally try to avoid zooms in my videos unless I want the quick manual zoom and focus look (which is possible with this camera anyway.)