PDA

View Full Version : Footage conversion problems on Mac



Walter
09-29-2008, 11:12 AM
I posted about this in the big HMC150 thread, but I figured I'd give this topic its own space as well.

I can't find any way to properly convert HMC150 AVCHD files. I've tried the Final Cut Log and Transfer, the Voltaic converter, and Toast 9, all with similar results. 720p/30 clips show 59.94 fps and play back at 2x speed. The FCP converted clips sometimes have terrible distortion, but that is basically non-existent on the Voltaic and Toast converted clips. I get the same results with the footage I've shot, Barry's rain footage from way back (the speed issue, but no distortion), and shrigg's clips (both the speed issue and lots of distortion) -- so it definitely seems like an issue with the conversion and not with my camera. 24p clips play back at the right speed / framerate, but the distortion is definitely still there in some clips.

I'm on a MacBook Pro, 10.4.11, Final Cut Pro 6.0.4.

I'm not sure where to go from here. . . .

Thomas Lew
09-29-2008, 12:00 PM
Go to log and transfer,

then choose the stream folder

let it wait for a minute or so and it should add the clips to the que

Walter
09-29-2008, 01:50 PM
Go to log and transfer,

then choose the stream folder

let it wait for a minute or so and it should add the clips to the que

I can go through the steps of converting the clips just fine, the problem is they aren't converted properly. See above.

BobDiaz
09-29-2008, 04:09 PM
There is a bug in the Voltaic converter it seems to screw up the 720/30p clips. I've written to the company (email) and pointed to the links where they can download the files and see for themselves. Last word was that they'll look into it....

Bob Diaz

Walter
09-29-2008, 11:45 PM
Well I tried converting the 720p/30 clips on a friend's FCP system tonight, and I got the exact same results -- the converted .MOVs play at 2x speed, and some have terrible glitches.

I was able to convert the HMC150 files to Panasonic P2 format MXF files using the Panasonic P2 converter on an old PC I had laying around, then I used FCP's Log and Transfer window to successfully convert the MXF files to Quicktime movies. It worked fine -- the clips played back at the proper speed, and the glitches were gone. However, these files aren't as sharp as clips converted directly to ProRes 422, there's more clipping in the highlights, and the colors are a little different. And that's not a legitimate workflow in the first place.

Is anyone successfully converting the 720p/30 AVCHD footage from the HMC150 in FCP?

David Saraceno
09-30-2008, 08:56 AM
That's interesting, because when I used Toast 9 to convert some sample footage, they all came in at the correct frame rate when I went to DVCProHD.

It might be in your toast settings.

awomias
10-11-2008, 10:06 PM
Any solution to this issue. I am having the same problem! 720/30p recorded clips show up as 720/59.94 and play at 2x speed! Help!!

Thomas Lew
10-11-2008, 10:25 PM
Apparetly there are several avchd glitches =\

pailes
10-12-2008, 01:07 AM
This should be reported to apple.

PKraft
10-12-2008, 02:29 AM
Apparetly there are several avchd glitches =\
Thomas, is there any proof of your assumption? Could it not be that the software to transcode was not used properly or whatever other reason might be the real culprit?
The glitch could be in every detail of a complicated process based complex little units.

Would someone please be kind enough to post a 720p30 clip in its native form?
Everyone can transcode that and then report his findings, stating the details of the
transcoding platform involved and the outcome of the transcoding.

Anyone? Pe.

pailes
10-12-2008, 03:04 AM
Thomas, is there any proof of your assumption? Could it not be that the software to transcode was not used properly or whatever other reason might be the real culprit?
The glitch could be in every detail of a complicated process based complex little units.

Would someone please be kind enough to post a 720p30 clip in its native form?
Everyone can transcode that and then report his findings, stating the details of the
transcoding platform involved and the outcome of the transcoding.

Anyone? Pe.
There are raw clips available on this forum already, just search for it. I can also confirm that FCP and Toast 9 both have problems with the available MTS 720p30 footage. Either this boils down to QuickTime or it is a problem with the MTS parsers of FCP/Toast 9. No matter what it is, it can't be very difficult to fix.

johnnyha
10-12-2008, 06:23 AM
Of all the things that can go wrong though... ;)

ltf3
10-24-2008, 12:17 PM
Hey Walter

Any luck with the footage shot at 720p 30 over 60fps? We're getting the 2x play speed too whether the files came through Toast 9 or FCP6.04.

I also notice that if I shoot at 720P 60 over 60 fps, then play the clip back in QT I don't actually see 60 discrete FPS! Actually there's 30 pairs of duplicate frames per second.... I think this is actually 30 over 60 tagged as 60.

Could there be an screw up in the actual camera settings. If the 30 over 60 setting is actually 60 over 60 tagged as 30 over 60, and duplicate frames get dropped we'd end up with a clip half as long! Which is what I see ... a 2x speed clip with a still last frame for the last half of the clip (the audio still plays to length).

Anyone else?

Lee

ltf3
10-24-2008, 02:35 PM
Well, solved half the issue...

The camera we were testing on was set to a shutter speed of 1/30 sec!! So of course when we recorded 720p 60 over 60 the poor thing had to duplicate frames! Set it to 1/15 sec and you'll get 4 duplicates! If the shutter is turned off, all is well. 60 discrete frames per sec.

But we still get 2x playback on 30 fps recorded over 60fps. I've initialized all settings ... and I get it whether I import using Toast or FCP.

Weird...

Anyone else?

Lee

gudgefilms
10-26-2008, 01:37 PM
I'm having the same issue. Couldn't figure a workaround out in FCP, so I'm using Toast. Toast has worked great.

I think it's a bug in FCP. Hopefully the next update fixes it (whenever that is).

-bg

ullanta
10-26-2008, 09:17 PM
Hmmm... I just log&transferred some 720p30 footage. In the log and transfer window, the video showed as solid green; but the final transferred video is fine. Not perfect for logging, but seems to work.



EDIT: Sorry, not true... looking through the footage, there seem to be some temporal distortions (jittery looped movement for a secod or tow every once in a while)...

pailes
10-27-2008, 03:58 AM
To add some more information, I just got my HMC 151E and tried to log & transfer 720p footage with 50 fps and the importer just crashed with a division by zero exception.

ltf3
10-28-2008, 06:09 PM
Well, solved half the issue...


But we still get 2x playback on 30 fps recorded over 60fps. I've initialized all settings ... and I get it whether I import using Toast or FCP.

Weird...

Anyone else?

Lee

Here's word from Panasonic Broadcast:
"The problem you are having with the HMC150 [720 60p PH mode] is an apple
issue. Apple only supports the 1080 formats in the PH bit rate mode. The
symptoms your are experiencing ,[double speed playback in 720 60
mode]are common to both final cut and IDVD since they both use the
QuickTime format. You would probably be better off directing your
efforts to apple."

Oh well....

Lee

Justyn
11-19-2008, 07:34 PM
I think that I might have a possible work around as I'm getting the same thing in FCP. I'm going to.. duplicate the files then I'll bring one set into cinematools and convert the files to 29.97 so it will play normal but then the audio will be slowed down.... so I'll then take the audio from the un conformed clip and marry the two in FCP.. might be the solution there.



BUT either way.. the intensity card works and no double play there..


cheers

BobDiaz
11-20-2008, 09:35 AM
I'm using FCE (Final Cut Express) and the only 720 mode it supports is 720/30p.

If I take a 720/60p file, transcode it (720/60p), and load it into FCE, every other frame is dropped and it becomes 720/30p.

If I take a 1080/30p file, transcode it to 720/30p, and load it into FCE, this works correctly. The transcoded file is 720/30p and it plays correctly.

If I take a 720/30p file, transcode it, and look at it with Quicktime or FCE, the 30p video is loaded as if it were 60p and the audio plays normal. This seems to be a problem at the transcoding stage.

If VoltacHD or Toast 9 could fix the transcoding issue, that would be great.


Bob Diaz

Walter
11-21-2008, 04:11 PM
I just updated my FCP to 6.0.5, and all my conversion problems appear to have been solved.

David Saraceno
11-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Is that going to pro res?

Walter
11-21-2008, 05:43 PM
Yep.

Justyn
11-25-2008, 04:38 PM
seems to work as advertised... must have been a lot of people complaining to apple.

Walter
11-26-2008, 03:41 AM
Well, it looks like I spoke too soon -- a couple of clips I tried to transcode tonight have the terrible, blotchy color glitches. They're 30p/720. Everything else has been fine so far except these two clips.

fieldreportermf
12-08-2008, 12:24 PM
Hello BobDiaz,

I too am using FCE4 and Toast 9... From your experience, are there any combinations of settings(FCE&Toast) that seem to deliver the best results? thanks....

BobDiaz
12-08-2008, 04:26 PM
Hello BobDiaz,

I too am using FCE4 and Toast 9... From your experience, are there any combinations of settings(FCE&Toast) that seem to deliver the best results? thanks....

Right now I'm working with FCE 3.5; I don't have the camera yet, so I'm working from other user's files to see how well it looks... I'm still trying things and have yet to decide to go with FCE 4.0 OR pay a lot more and FCP (FCS).


I have not tested that many combinations, but I have found that in one menu, you can't select AIC, but it does appear in a different menu. (Sorry, but off the top of my head I don't remember.) Because FCE works in AIC, I select that...

It appears that 720/30p (or 24p) is the sweet point for the camera. FCE only seems to work in 720/30p; thus everything (720/60p, 30p, 24p) is converted to 720/30p.

The 720/60p converts by dropping every other frame. I guess this could work if you shoot the video with a 1/60th of a second shutter.

720/24p converts by making a second copy of a frame every 4 frames. For example, Source: "A B C D E F G H" becomes "A B C D D E F G H H". It can look a bit odd on playback.

720/30p does not convert correctly at this time; neither Toast 9 nor VoltaicHD converts it correctly. Oddly enough, you can shoot in 1080/30p and tell either converter to output the result as 720/30p and it works correctly.


I have NOT run the tests to see if shooting 720/60p into FCE (converted to 720/30p) is better than shooting 1080/30p and converting the file to 720/30p. There are a few things that work in the 60p mode, like DRS, this I believe don't work in 30p mode...

Bob Diaz

fieldreportermf
12-08-2008, 05:39 PM
Thanks Bob...appreciated :)

jscheib
12-11-2008, 11:10 PM
So has anyone gotten 720p30 footage to convert correctly to any format (DVCPRO HD/ProRes/ProRes HQ/AIC, or even HDV or DV) using Toast 9, and if so how?? I'm in a bit of a crunch here to cut a quick trailer and the format isn't important because YouTube is the delivery. Thanks!

David Saraceno
12-12-2008, 09:15 AM
jscheib:

What problem are you having with the conversion?

jscheib
12-12-2008, 05:06 PM
Well, no matter what I convert my 720p30 footage to (AIC, ProRes, DVCPRO HD, DV, HDV, and even H.264 are all that I've tried), and no matter the framerate (29.97, 30, 59.94, and 60 (progressive, and some interlaced) are all that I've tried for the same 30p footage), everything plays as though 15 fps I suppose, is the best way I can describe it. The audio will be slightly out of sync or "in-sync" sometimes, but it's as though only half of the frames of the video are playing, so it looks "out-of-sync" even though the timing may be accurate. For instance, I have footage of a woman talking, and her mouth is moving during all the right times, but it appears like it's not the right audio because visually speaking every other frame seems to be elided. I've read on this thread that 30p footage won't convert correctly to anything, so I was hoping someone had a solution to get it into SOME editable format, as I'm still using a G5 right now (blast...). I did finally get one option to work mediocrely, and that was ProRes HQ at 30p, but the audio is out of sync by 14 frames, which seems to say something about the footage. But even that still wasn't perfect.

Thanks for your help, David.

David Saraceno
12-12-2008, 07:48 PM
What version of FCP are you running on what hardware?

What QT, and what media drive.

How much RAM.

What did you shoot in the HMC150?

jscheib
12-12-2008, 10:06 PM
-What version of FCP are you running on what hardware?
Transcoding with Toast 9. Using FCP 6.0.5 to import on the respective (correct) timelines. PowerMac G5 Dual 2.0 4GB RAM.

-What QT, and what media drive.
QT Pro 7.5.5; no media drive as it's not a lot of footage so it's just on my comp's HD. (plenty of free space with 2 250GBs) The footage has the same problems in QT as it does in FCP.

-How much RAM.
4GB

-What did you shoot in the HMC150?
Not sure what you're asking here exactly, but it's 720p30 PH mode, default scene file 1. A bunch of clips of various lengths, 15 seconds to 5 minutes long. As for content, it's of a woman talking, interview style. HMC150, NTSC.

Thanks for your help - hope I answered all of your questions.

David Saraceno
12-13-2008, 09:46 AM
Open the clips in the QT Pro player that you have converted.

Hit command - I to reveal the movie inspector.

Start the movie playing.

Tell us what is showing the inspector for:

1. FPS

2. Playing FPS.

Also, I don't think playing off the boot drive is good idea, especially for anything AIC, prores, DVCProHD, etc

Not fast enough.

And why convert to HDV?

B Rilla
12-14-2008, 12:19 AM
The only way I can sucessfully transfer avchd footage is recording in 1080 24p and 720 24p and capturing with I movie. Nothing else seems to work.

FCP 6.0.5 and those crazy plug ins.
Toast 9 doesnt work.
I movie cant seems to manage anything 30p.

Is there a solution?

David Saraceno
12-14-2008, 02:13 PM
Is there a solution to what?

Because I have no issues using Toast 9, FCP 6.0.4 or the AVCHD to p2 folder conversion in Windows.

Explain in detail what "FCP 6.0.5 and those crazy plug ins" means?

We shot almost an hour of 720/24p and converted without any issues.

I tested as above and also used VideoPierHD as well.

B Rilla
12-14-2008, 03:47 PM
The plug ins from apple for the log and transfer section. Ive also tried the downloads from panasonic on their website. When I choose to mount the "private" folder fcp gives me an error. I just cant seem to correctly capture 1080/720 30p footage or capture anything within fcp.

Toast 9 just bumps the audio out of sync with the video and I cant seem to find the right setting to fix it. If you have done it correctly can you please tell me the settings?

TheGuitarzan
12-16-2008, 12:34 PM
I am asking completely out of ignorance... why all the talk about shooting in 720/30p? Why not shoot in 1080/30p?

matt s.
12-16-2008, 01:54 PM
Less compression in the 720 compared to the 1080 so it's more or less considered the sweet spot of the 150.

BobDiaz
12-16-2008, 05:24 PM
I am asking completely out of ignorance... why all the talk about shooting in 720/30p? Why not shoot in 1080/30p?

Both 720/30p and 720/24p offer the lowest compression ratios possible; thus the lowest compression noise possible.

With FCE, 720/30p is the mode that FCE likes to work in. The problem is that right now both VoltaicHD and Toast 9 don't convert that mode properly. RATS!!!!

I believe that problem will be fixed in a future software update, but until then, the only work-arounds I see are:

Shoot 720/24p: Great but FCE drops it into a 30p time line, making a second copy of every 4th frame. I can output the file as 24p, but the dropped frame may not be the extra copy.

Shoot 720/60p: FCE drops every frame to generate a 720/30p sequence. The file has a higher compression ratio and more compression noise than the 720/30p file. Also, the shutter speed would need to be 1/60 of a second to avoid strobe like movement at 30p.

Shoot 1080/30p: The will convert to 720/30p using Toast 9 or VoltaicHD. I'm not sure how the compression noise would appear when the image size is reduced. I have not compared this to a 720/60p files yet...

USE FCP and SHOOT 720/24P: Possible, BUT that's a lot of money to upgrade and given that I lost a lot of money in 2008 (Stock market and several jobs canceled), I have to watch what I spend...



Bob Diaz

TheGuitarzan
12-16-2008, 07:02 PM
Thanks for the info... but at 720, aren't you giving up substantial resolution? When I used toast to convert to DVCPRO HD, the clips came in at 960x720. But my camera shoots up to 1920x1080.

This seems like a lot of resolution to give up. Shouldn't such a difference be noticeable?

I see a lot of discussion about image quality and compression affects on different CODECS, but doesn't all of that pale in comparison to a much higher resolution, like 1920x1080?

(Thanks for any info. I am kinda frustrated having to learn so much just to start using my HMC150.)

matt s.
12-16-2008, 07:29 PM
I feel AIC gives better results over DVCPORHD as it lets you stay in 1920X1080 or 1280X720 resolution.

David Saraceno
12-17-2008, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the info... but at 720, aren't you giving up substantial resolution? When I used toast to convert to DVCPRO HD, the clips came in at 960x720. But my camera shoots up to 1920x1080.

That's because you failed to set your output parameters correctly in Toast.

ullanta
12-17-2008, 02:20 PM
Thanks for the info... but at 720, aren't you giving up substantial resolution? When I used toast to convert to DVCPRO HD, the clips came in at 960x720. But my camera shoots up to 1920x1080.


DVCProHD has 2 possible resolutions: 960x720 and 1280x1080 - it's not a full raster format. However, common wisdom says that the actual resolution of the HMC (and all the Panny prosumer cams) is somewht more than 960x720, somewhat less than 1280x1080... so 1280x1080 likely doesn't cot you much resolution.