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View Full Version : From Vincent Laforet: If you want 24p on the 5D MKII...



f64manray
09-26-2008, 10:05 PM
Canon reads Vincent's blog so if you really want 24fps added to the D5 MKII this is what he has to say:

24 p and 1/48th is key… keep going… they will understand that it’s a MUST do firmware update…
I understand that it’s a silly tactic - but it works a LOT better than a carefully crafted e-mail or letter… trust me. If we hit 500+ comments asking for 24p - they can’t ignore it.. (I don’t have ads on this blog - therefore I’m not looking to drive up hits… there is no ulterior motive here other than to make an impression on Canon.)

So go here and make a comment requesting 24fps:


http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/26/original-raw-clips-from-reverie-now-available-for-download/#comments

Tell all your film friends to bombard Vincent's blog with this request.

John Sandel
09-26-2008, 11:08 PM
Done.

PappasArts
09-26-2008, 11:30 PM
<<<I understand that it’s a silly tactic>>>>

Not silly at all.

Canon should be called on their persistence playing this trickle of features game. Usually they give us less, in this case they give use 6 more frames to go to 30fps. The lack of 24fps is strictly a choice to control what they give us. It's petty since cheap camcorders have 24fps and this is a Full frame 21MP device that's far more pro than those camcorders. They also didn't give us manual controls to control exposure correctly. They suck!

So the louder we scream, maybe they'll listen.

Anyways, good idea!


So go here and make a comment requesting 24fps:


http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/...load/#comments

Tell all your film friends to bombard Vincent's blog with this request.

logic108
09-27-2008, 12:03 AM
I posted for 25P and 24P. It's a good idea to do this.

Bebel
09-27-2008, 12:04 AM
done!

excellent idea!

ESTEBEVERDE
09-27-2008, 12:23 AM
29.97 fps
25.00 fps
23.976 fps

Manual Shutter
Manual ISO
Manual Aperture

Matthew Bennett
09-27-2008, 08:41 AM
Wow! 500 comments so far.... There is a SERIOUS want for 24p.

Fliques Osman
09-27-2008, 08:52 AM
Done.

Nektonic
09-27-2008, 09:59 AM
Request completed. Hopefully, they are listening.

I had an idea. Should we maybe set-up a thread here where DVXUSER's can type in requests as well. Then send an email to Canon with a link to the thread?

The double-edged sword of the 5D mkII
The thing that I have been thinking about lately is that since they can do this in an SLR, when it comes time for Canon to release the XL-H2 and XH-A2, we had better not see another minor upgrade, 1/3 sensor style camera. They have to at the very least include this kind of tech or risk loosing massive amounts of their loyal video camera customer base to their own DSLR or to RED. At the very least, for let's say an A2, they need to give it a full frame sensor so that we can reap the low light benefits and DOF control. They probably won't give something like an A2 interchangeable lenses but they could at least give a good fixed lens that works with a full frame sensor.

I can see this hurting their consumer base as well, especially when the inevitable video capable Digital Rebel and 60D come out sometime next year. Why buy an HV30 or HF11 and a still camera if you can get a kick-arse DSLR with the video built in, plus way better low light capability?

ozan
09-27-2008, 10:08 AM
Post poeple post!!!

Flood his website!

CAnon beter listen!

J.R. Hudson
09-27-2008, 10:13 AM
24p is a must in todays reality.

Why a camera compnay would not adopt this is a mystery too me.

ydgmdlu
09-27-2008, 12:04 PM
Here is Canon's dilemma: If it gives videographers what they want, then it will substantially undermine its own camcorder business. Every single one of its prosumer camcorders would be inferior to the 5D MkII in the most important aspects (i.e. the image itself). On the other hand, if it made all of the concessions, then sales of the 5D would increase tenfold (maybe more). Canon lenses would also see a dramatic jump in the industry. And it would be staging a major coup in the industry. Unlike Sony and Panasonic, it doesn't have a professional camcorder line, so it would only be affecting its prosumer customer base; it wouldn't be losing the big bucks.

But I believe that what Canon is really thinking is that DSLR users would buy the 5D anyway, regardless of the movie mode, so it doesn't consider stubborn videographers to be lost customers. Even if it doesn't make any major firmware changes before the product ships, it wouldn't have lost any business than what it was expecting to have in the first place. The question before it is how much the increased business coming from videographers would offset the loss in sales to its HDV camcorders, and whether or not it is willing to accept the costs, even if the concessions would lead to profits in the long run.

Perhaps Canon is also thinking that by keeping the DSLR and prosumer camcorder lines as separate as possible at this point, videographers would be compelled to double-dip, buying the 5D for use in some situations (that don't require 24p and full manual control) while employing the full-fledged camcorders in other situations. This may not be the friendliest of business practices, but it is very smart.

Thus, I can understand why Canon is purposefully crippling its DSLR. It's the same kind of philosophy behind the first iPod with video and George Lucas's non-anamorphic, non-SE original Star Wars trilogy DVDs: Its wants the movie mode to be a value-added feature, not the main attraction. It wants to make clear that what it is selling is a DSLR first, not a revolutionary camcorder or super convergence device.

ryan brown
09-27-2008, 12:20 PM
Here is Canon's dilemma: If it gives videographers what they want, then it will substantially undermine its own camcorder business.

This keeps coming up. The simple answer is... TOO BAD. It's going to happen whether Canon wants it to or not. Maybe from Nikon, maybe from someone else, but it's going to happen. And SOON.

They can either be smart and just say, "F@ck it, lets just give them what they want", and sell a ton of cameras. Or they can continue to be the Canon that I've come to expect, and deliberately cripple their product line in order to delay the inevitable. All just to make an extra buck. If they put all their efforts into making the "perfect cam" (you know what I mean), they'd find themselves in a win-win situation.

Bottom line thinking, and exactly why over a year ago I said neither I, nor my company, will every buy a canon product again.

I hope they can change my mind on that... but it still doesn't look like they've learned. I think of Canon as the McDonald's of of the electronics "fast food chain", and so far, I've no reason to think otherwise.

Emanuel
09-27-2008, 12:51 PM
24p is a must in todays reality.

Why a camera compnay would not adopt this is a mystery too me.Hi John!

Totally with all you!

E. :-)



EDIT -- Reposting:

So go here and make a comment requesting 24fps:

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/26/original-raw-clips-from-reverie-now-available-for-download/#comment-3133

Tell all your film friends to bombard Vincent's blog with this request.

William_Robinette
09-27-2008, 01:05 PM
I don't know guys. Check this out: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19625

Kholi
09-27-2008, 03:05 PM
I already told you guys it wasn't gonna be an acceptable 1080p. 720p probably. Which is probably enough for most people, anyway.

http://deviated.net/MVI_0795.jpg

Not even gonna blame the glass, cause the guy is obviously a pro and he used TOtL lenses. Shrink this down to 720 (it came from the 1080 and a cropped portion) and you've got it.

Otherwise, even HVX1080 + Adapter honestly looks better. To me anyway. Doesn't stop the 5D from being almost super cool

joe 1008
09-27-2008, 03:27 PM
This keeps coming up. The simple answer is... TOO BAD. It's going to happen whether Canon wants it to or not. Maybe from Nikon, maybe from someone else, but it's going to happen. And SOON.

They can either be smart and just say, "F@ck it, lets just give them what they want", and sell a ton of cameras. Or they can continue to be the Canon that I've come to expect, and deliberately cripple their product line in order to delay the inevitable. All just to make an extra buck. If they put all their efforts into making the "perfect cam" (you know what I mean), they'd find themselves in a win-win situation.

Bottom line thinking, and exactly why over a year ago I said neither I, nor my company, will every buy a canon product again.

I hope they can change my mind on that... but it still doesn't look like they've learned. I think of Canon as the McDonald's of of the electronics "fast food chain", and so far, I've no reason to think otherwise.

RRIIGHT! We will get it from somewhere. And soon.



I already told you guys it wasn't gonna be an acceptable 1080p. 720p probably. Which is probably enough for most people, anyway.

http://deviated.net/MVI_0795.jpg

Not even gonna blame the glass, cause the guy is obviously a pro and he used TOtL lenses. Shrink this down to 720 (it came from the 1080 and a cropped portion) and you've got it.

Otherwise, even HVX1080 + Adapter honestly looks better. To me anyway. Doesn't stop the 5D from being almost super cool


Sounds like the HPX500 discussion. I'm tired of that.

John Caballero
09-27-2008, 04:02 PM
Again, the wonderful thing is we don't have to buy this camera if we think is not "up to our level of expectations". If you are not going to get one whats the point of even talking about it. Just keep on shooting with the camera you have now.

Chris_TC
09-27-2008, 04:23 PM
Otherwise, even HVX1080 + Adapter honestly looks better.
Would it have even gotten the shot? According to Vincent, most of the video was ISO 3200*. Without a light-eating adapter.

*it seems he thinks that he shot at 1/60th while it's obviously 1/30th, so it may have actually been ISO 6400.

Emanuel
09-27-2008, 04:59 PM
Would it have even gotten the shot? According to Vincent, most of the video was ISO 3200*. Without a light-eating adapter.

*it seems he thinks that he shot at 1/60th while it's obviously 1/30th, so it may have actually been ISO 6400.Thanks for your full reminder. I think your post says everything.

PappasArts
09-27-2008, 05:07 PM
Again, the wonderful thing is we don't have to buy this camera if we think is not "up to our level of expectations". If you are not going to get one whats the point of even talking about it. Just keep on shooting with the camera you have now.


Exactly...... Well said


This was shot with a prototype camera and high asa so wait to judge the final image when it ships. However it's not bad for a first generation.

You FUD posters with agenda's, don't think for one second we don't see you for what you really are. Between REDuser to DVXuser etc your tone in writing style show's your FUD agenda clearly. It might just be text, however the subtleties in what and how you say it exposes those that are nothing but intentionally negative on every little thing that can be found. Whether its true or not.

I may not be happy about Canon's lack of exposure control or 24P and have clearly said they suck for doing that on purpose. However I recognize this is a major gigantic step in the right direction that means in the future generations this is going to get better and more powerful.




Michael Pappas
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

Emanuel
09-27-2008, 05:49 PM
As you said, well said. Same for your post.

My compliments, Michael! Nice to read you and see you over here again.

Emanuel :-)

ozan
09-27-2008, 06:19 PM
Wow! 500 comments so far.... There is a SERIOUS want for 24p.

Ye, good indeed. I hope its not a scam to get more traffic to his site. lol Cause its working!

Besides from this 24p bizness people.... Full manual controls are way important before we start talking about frame rates. It would suck if they skipped it. Then were back at to square one like the d90.

I hope they do both :)


o

Rubbersquare
09-27-2008, 06:54 PM
but look at this. i think it looks pretty damn good. for $3000. yes? and available in a few weeks, not months or possibly more. ???

http://www.rubbersquare.com/5dmkii-vl.png
(http://www.rubbersquare.com/5dmkii-vl.png)

ESTEBEVERDE
09-27-2008, 07:17 PM
24p is a must in todays reality.

Why a camera compnay would not adopt this is a mystery too me.



29.97 fps, 25.00 fps, 23.976 fps

+

Manual Shutter, ISO and Aperture.

=

Good Start! :beer:

dantewaters
09-27-2008, 07:18 PM
yea it does look good, and there is no reason to compare anything, unless you want to protect your business and investment with come client who says what you use is trash, other than than lets just embrace what is available, to get the results each individual wants.

PappasArts
09-27-2008, 08:31 PM
As you said, well said. Same for your post.

My compliments, Michael! Nice to read you and see you over here again.

Emanuel :-)



Thanks Emanuel............ :)




Michael Pappas
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

PappasArts
09-27-2008, 08:33 PM
but look at this. i think it looks pretty damn good. for $3000. yes? and available in a few weeks, not months or possibly more. ???

http://www.rubbersquare.com/5dmkii-vl.png
(http://www.rubbersquare.com/5dmkii-vl.png)


And this was shot high ASA too! Just imagine lower asa. Compression would have to work less, hence even better image.....


Michael Pappas
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

Rubbersquare
09-27-2008, 10:25 PM
watch "eternal sunshine of the spotless mind" and tell me that does not look like it was shot on a lomo. and that's a crap camera. but it works. it;s not the medium, it's the content. bitch about frame rate or iso or shutter control. but have a good story to tell and it really doesn't matter. hard for me to actually say that, but i'm slowly realizing it's true. damn technology.

PappasArts
09-28-2008, 12:27 AM
watch "eternal sunshine of the spotless mind" and tell me that does not look like it was shot on a lomo. and that's a crap camera. but it works. it;s not the medium, it's the content. bitch about frame rate or iso or shutter control. but have a good story to tell and it really doesn't matter. hard for me to actually say that, but i'm slowly realizing it's true. damn technology.


Agreed!

The quality of content will always be king for the best work made....



Michael Pappas
http://www.Myspace.com/PappasArts
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
PappasArts & Arrfilms Main site
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
CONTACT VIA AOL INSTANT MESSENGER
AT { PAPPASARTS2 }

Bebel
09-28-2008, 11:31 AM
ok done that run it

Nicky
09-28-2008, 12:16 PM
I already told you guys it wasn't gonna be an acceptable 1080p. 720p probably. Which is probably enough for most people, anyway.

http://deviated.net/MVI_0795.jpg

Not even gonna blame the glass, cause the guy is obviously a pro and he used TOtL lenses. Shrink this down to 720 (it came from the 1080 and a cropped portion) and you've got it.

Otherwise, even HVX1080 + Adapter honestly looks better. To me anyway. Doesn't stop the 5D from being almost super cool

You really think HVX+Adapter looks better???????? Dude... Really? Even the D90 compares favorably to the HVX+Adapter... (check the vimeo clip comparison)

Nicky
09-28-2008, 12:18 PM
Oh.... to be honest I dont think the still your using as a reference is perfectly sharp.

f64manray
09-28-2008, 12:25 PM
Oh.... to be honest I dont think the still your using as a reference is perfectly sharp.

Really? I would say it's pretty damn sharp considering the platform the camera was resting on was a vibrating tin can in a wind storm about 2,000 feet in the air. Pretty damn sharp indeed.

Thebes
09-28-2008, 04:19 PM
Looks to me like there is a very small amount of motion blur in a mostly vertical direction. Gyro or not I would not trust a frame grab from a helicopter to lack motion blur.

ESTEBEVERDE
09-28-2008, 06:07 PM
He only used one gyro instead of two in a x y pattern nor did he use a gimbal.

Also, it was pretty dark so I am sure his shutter was a bit longer than if it were a bright Arizona day time.

Pretty damn good under the circumstances.

Nicky
09-29-2008, 06:55 AM
Looks to me like there is a very small amount of motion blur in a mostly vertical direction. Gyro or not I would not trust a frame grab from a helicopter to lack motion blur.

Exactly... lets not forget that it looks like a 360 degree shutter at 30P... so it gets that collateral look(which can also happen with 24P if 360 shutter 24th/sec is used) and is hard to get a PERFECTLY crisp frame ESPECIALLY knowing the EXTREME circumstances.

I personally think these 5D video images MAY be sharper than the EX1/LEX combo... which is hard to beat actually. Also there could be sharpening involved however it still looks cool just like the HVX tends to with a little edge enhancement = still filmy :)

anthonyt
09-29-2008, 08:13 AM
Good news guys

From Laforet's blog

"One of the visitors of Photokina 2008 Trade Show in Cologne reported in a well known German Canon forum today (http://www.dforum.net/), that Canon is now actually discussing a firmware upgrade to enable 25 fps mode. Furthermore, the Canon technician, who revealed this information, confirmed, that the 25 fps can be achieved by firmware change only, no hardware modifications are required."

fahreza
09-29-2008, 08:44 AM
i just read Laforet's blog and he said this regarding the request to Canon:

"2. You need to request only ONE thing… THE most important thing to you. And STAY FOCUSED ON THAT - so that they understand you are willing to give up on the 5-30 other features you are dying for…"

if 24p is what makes the difference between film cadence and video cadence, then i'm all for it. i'd love to have a video camera which creates film-like moving pictures. (actually i think d90's videos look more film-like, at least to me, is it because of the 24p, i honestly don't know). but after reading Laforet's comment above, i'm beginning to think we should've asked for full manual control ability in this 5dmk2 instead... CMIIW, but i isn't that more important?

or if it's true that the 24/25p can be solved by firmware, will it be too much too ask for manual settings/control ability too...?

Solomon Chase
09-29-2008, 09:43 AM
24p is very easy to implement, and less work for the storage + processing hardware of the camera. I think it makes sense to ask for this first. Adding manual controls etc. would take a much larger effort.

And also, judging by Canon's track record with cameras like the HV20/HV30 etc, they consider manual controls to be more of a "reserved for pro" feature than 24p!

ozan
09-29-2008, 11:12 AM
And also, judging by Canon's track record with cameras like the HV20/HV30 etc, they consider manual controls to be more of a "reserved for pro" feature than 24p!


Very true indeed! Which most likely will be the same case for the 5D sadly.

Chris_TC
09-29-2008, 12:12 PM
And they are right. In fact, they should remove manual control for photography as well. In my opinion, this pro feature should be reserved for $5,000+ DSLRs.

egproductions
09-29-2008, 12:13 PM
Of course I could be wrong but I have a feeling if canon adds 24P is will be 24P normal and maybe call it cinema mode. The way I look at the video feature on this camera is "video for photographers" I don't think Canon was looking to make a still camera that independent filmakers could use as an HD video camera (whether or not it can serve that purpose). If I were designing a professional still camera (for still photographers) that had a video feature I would do as canon did; make sure it is high quality, could have the DOF I was used to but target it for simple editing (60i timeline, no major color correcting).

I am assuming that the majority of people buying this camera probably have no interest in video (fair assumption? I think so). A simple video feature could intrigue these consumers but if it gets very intricate and adjustable it could throw off the target market for this camera. People might feel they are paying for the video functionality of the camera.

Rylan Zolinski
09-29-2008, 05:53 PM
I am assuming that the majority of people buying this camera probably have no interest in video (fair assumption? I think so). A simple video feature could intrigue these consumers but if it gets very intricate and adjustable it could throw off the target market for this camera. People might feel they are paying for the video functionality of the camera.

Majority, yes, but MANY videographers will likely purchase it as well. As for people feeling like they are paying for video, I HIGHLY doubt it.

booggerg2
09-30-2008, 09:05 AM
it's confirmed Laforet does not know for sure what he's talking about with regards to the controls available in the 5D2's movie mode. In fact, in movie mode, there is NO aperture control. NO ISO control, NO shutter control. Only lock down and ability to compensate.


I am standing by my original statements on this topic. The starting point for providing this information was the documentation we've received directly from Canon Inc. in Japan, and it has since been checked and confirmed on at least two working pre-production samples of the EOS 5D Mark II camera that we have here in New York.

I spoke to Vincent by telephone yesterday, and expressed my concern over his remarks. He wants to see for himself, but he doesn't have a 5D Mark II to examine at the moment. In any case, I am now 100% certain that the camera performs as I've stated.

To move the discussion to the next level, let me reassure you that Canon is gathering all the input it can from professional photographers concerning feature suggestions for HD Movie Mode on the 5D Mark II camera. Our engineers have not explained to us why they made the choices they did, or if it is even possible to make any changes to exposure control methods via firmware updates. Unless they elect to make any statements on these matters, I won't be able to answer these questions on their behalf. But I'll continue to listen to constructive comments and requests, and pass them along to our product designers.

Best Regards,

Chuck Westfall
Technical Advisor/Professional Products Marketing Division
Consumer Imaging Group/Canon U.S.A., Inc.

John Sandel
09-30-2008, 09:23 AM
booggerg2, you have a link to that? Where was it posted?

booggerg2
09-30-2008, 09:28 AM
John.. Chuck participates in a private forum DWF(wedding photographers) so even if I link it, you'd still need an account to see it.

Rubbersquare
09-30-2008, 09:32 AM
so it's pretty much useless as a video camera.

John Sandel
09-30-2008, 10:16 AM
John.. Chuck participates in a private forum DWF(wedding photographers) so even if I link it, you'd still need an account to see it.

That's OK. Weddings give me cold feet.

At his blog, Laforet has qualified his descriptions of the 5D2, in each post & in his responses to comments, by noting that he was using a prototype & that he had no manual. Under his post "September 26th 2008, 11:17 pm," he comments (9/27/8 at 12:43p) that he used a method very like what Kholi Hicks devised with the D90, to fool the 5D2 into behaving. I think he stumbled on the same track we all have: the 5D2 is usable, even if the controls are badly implemented.

f64manray
09-30-2008, 10:27 AM
it's confirmed Laforet does not know for sure what he's talking about with regards to the controls available in the 5D2's movie mode. In fact, in movie mode, there is NO aperture control. NO ISO control, NO shutter control. Only lock down and ability to compensate.

Can you at least post what Westfall says about how it works in his words as you did with the last statement.

Even disregarding Laforet, my understanding is that the exposure can be locked and can be adjusted via the exposure compensation dial which would thereby give you control most likely of the aperture. Also pointing the camera to a dark area forcing it to open up and then locking etc. It still can be controlled.

Rubbersquare
09-30-2008, 10:37 AM
but what about the aperture? is it all luck of the draw so to speak for what you get before you lock down?

f64manray
09-30-2008, 10:50 AM
but what about the aperture? is it all luck of the draw so to speak for what you get before you lock down?

It's not really luck of the draw. Point the camera to a dark area, it's going to open up the aperture, no question. Lock the exposure and you have your F2.8 or whatever max is on your lens.

Laforet says he shot at F2 for the whole shoot. In those lighting conditions, I'm sure that's the aperture the camera would have picked anyway in auto mode.

At the worst, were saying that Reverie is a result of a guy that had no clue about how the camera worked and it's virtually a point and shoot endeavor. I'm not sure whether to be depressed or completely astounded and amazed. I don't want to live with that, but I guess I could. It is pretty amazing if that was a point and shoot movie. I guess I will just point and shoot then. It looks like Canon has it all well in hand. ....at least in those lighting conditions which is where I live creatively anyway.

Also let's not forget about ND filters. They can also force the camera open nicely in brighter conditions.

I have a new slogan for Canon:

Even if you don't know what the hell you're doing, don't worry about it, she'll be right mate.

I wonder if the same could be said about the 35mm Panaflex. ;-)

Thebes
09-30-2008, 11:47 AM
I was under the impression that, like the D90, you had some level or aperture control on the 5DMKII. If nothing else probably one could use an adapter and put Nikon lenses with manual aperture rings on it, but I thought I read that the 5DMKII honors the aperture, chooses a shutter 1/30th to 1/125th and then does auto ISO.

f64manray
09-30-2008, 11:50 AM
Interesting exchange from Vincent and a professional cameraman that worked on Superman II Comparing the 5D MKII low light capability to Panavision HD Genesis (Genesis was also used on "Click" and "Apocalypto" "Sacry Movie 4" "Fly Boys")

i worked at panavision for a long time and those raw clips are amazing. i have some mounts that take the panavision lenses and fix em to my canon still cameras. everything ive shot up to this has been mostly on the genesis …which is an epic camera, but this low light stuff looks crazy… and with my panavision mounts combined with a camera like this…. the funny thing is i worked on superman for fx shots over new york and have used those heli pads off to the side of the city… we shot genesis and i was constantly batteling the grain at night to get the cleanest image… this camera is just wow.. (http://www.williameubank.com/)


(FROM VINCE: Will - you’re right! I think a LOT of people are missing the point - this is indeed NOT meant to replace motion picture cameras. BUT it must be said - that the low light performance is groundbreaking… period - end of story. Anyone who has complained about the noise etc - doesn’t know what they’re talking about… sorry. Yes - there might be some “weird” H.264 on some small spots - but compared to most other solutions out there - it’s still heads above what is available out there (there are 1-2 very very high end HD cameras that might be able to match this. Most CANNOT.)



This is to funny when I read some photographers remarks that the video feature in the 5D MKII is just a gimmick. Apparently some pros wish they had this useless toy for some aspects of film production.

Chris_TC
09-30-2008, 01:01 PM
It's not really luck of the draw. Point the camera to a dark area, it's going to open up the aperture, no question. Lock the exposure and you have your F2.8 or whatever max is on your lens.
Yup, that along with a 1/30th shutter as Reverie proves. What if I don't want 1/30th?

f64manray
09-30-2008, 01:40 PM
Yup, that along with a 1/30th shutter as Reverie proves. What if I don't want 1/30th?

Then I guess you clould pay $30,000 for a for Red One with less low light capability.

Kholi
09-30-2008, 02:05 PM
Then I guess you clould pay $30,000 for a for Red One with less low light capability.

You mean 23k for a working dedicated video acquisition system with manual controls for repeatable successful results.

I'm just sayin'.

Rubbersquare
09-30-2008, 02:08 PM
You mean 23k for a working dedicated video acquisition system with manual controls for repeatable successful results.

I'm just sayin'.

what he said.

f64manray
09-30-2008, 04:43 PM
You mean 23k for a working dedicated video acquisition system with manual controls for repeatable successful results.

I'm just sayin'.

I thought it was around 30K to get Red One to a fully functioning unit if I remember reading the Red site correcty. I'm sure it's a great kit, but for 20K there is alot of mighty fine "L" series glass that could be bought if your willing to do some back bending work arounds with the 5D.

It doesn't matter, I'm sure there's a Scarlet somewhere in my future as well in addition to the 5D if they can deliver to me full manual controls, full size low light sensor as capable as the 5D, interchangeble lenses, variable frame rates and of course XLR phantom powerd mic/line level audio inputs (no mini jacks!) .....or did I just describe the upcoming Canon 1Ds MK IV ;-)

John Sandel
09-30-2008, 04:50 PM
You mean … a working dedicated video acquisition system with manual controls for repeatable successful results.

Well, let's do a checklist …

1. working … Red: yes—5D2: yes
2. dedicated … Red: yes—5D2: no
3. video acquisition system … Red: yes—5D2: yes
4. with manual controls … Red: yes—5D2: yes
5. for repeatable … Red: yes—5D2: yes
6. successful results … Red: yes—5D2: yes

Oh, and let's just add these little items:

7. that's easy to use: … Red: yes—5D2: TBA
8. which costs $3,000 … Red: no—5D2: yes
9. which costs $23,000 … Red: yes—5D2: no

So if I worry exclusively about #2, I'll go with Red.

Odd, though—that shiny #8 keeps distracting me. All I have to be willing to do is adapt my work habits to adjust for the tool, which I do every time I shoot anyway, and I can buy, hmm, let's see … 7.666 Canons for the Red I didn't buy.

How many crew lunches is that? How many insurance bonds or location bribes? How many completed short films? How many new Macs on which to post some of the shorts?

Etc.

Rubbersquare
09-30-2008, 04:58 PM
#4 is apparently a NO for the 5D2.

and what about
#10. shoots 24fps ... Red: yes - 5D2: no

Rubbersquare
09-30-2008, 04:59 PM
but, i do agree on the price. i can "learn" with the 5D2. i can rent a Red.

Texanite
09-30-2008, 05:11 PM
7. that's easy to use: … Red: yes—5D2: TBA

Red: yes?

When I see a RED rented along with hiring a DIT to make sure it works well, I'm not sure the "easy to use" answer for RED is a "yes".

John Sandel
09-30-2008, 10:33 PM
#4 is apparently a NO for the 5D2.

From what I've read, the manual controls for exposure, ISO & shutter speed on the 5D2 are roughly comparable to those on the D90 (thanks, Kholi). I.e., they're controllable, to a frustratingly small degree, and the user interface is badly hobbled, but both cameras have some manual control.


I'm not sure the "easy to use" answer for RED is a "yes".

Same deal here. The Red may be dauntingly complicated, but its controls are of professional grade. Hence it's easier to use than the 5D2, because there's far less guesswork.

I'm being provocative to make a point about Kholi's gloss on the Red. Comparing that to Nikon's D90 or Canon's 5D2 is like comparing apples to oranges—both are intended for greatly different end users.

The salient quality they share is their potential facility in the hands of someone willing to master the tool. Choose your weapon.

Kholi
09-30-2008, 10:45 PM
Well, let's do a checklist …

1. working … Red: yes—5D2: yes
2. dedicated … Red: yes—5D2: no
3. video acquisition system … Red: yes—5D2: yes
4. with manual controls … Red: yes—5D2: yes
5. for repeatable … Red: yes—5D2: yes
6. successful results … Red: yes—5D2: yes

Oh, and let's just add these little items:

7. that's easy to use: … Red: yes—5D2: TBA
8. which costs $3,000 … Red: no—5D2: yes
9. which costs $23,000 … Red: yes—5D2: no

So if I worry exclusively about #2, I'll go with Red.

Odd, though—that shiny #8 keeps distracting me. All I have to be willing to do is adapt my work habits to adjust for the tool, which I do every time I shoot anyway, and I can buy, hmm, let's see … 7.666 Canons for the Red I didn't buy.

How many crew lunches is that? How many insurance bonds or location bribes? How many completed short films? How many new Macs on which to post some of the shorts?

Etc.

Your mistakes are listed in RED, maybes in YELLOW.

How much money will you make back (ROI) from a 5D MKII Shooting video? How many people will pay you to come out with a 5D? How much value will the 5D MKII retain on resale? How will your actors respond to a 5D MKII? How will your investors respond to a 5D MKII? And my favorite...

How much money did you waste on set trying to lock down great exposure and reshoots because it just doesn't look right? Consider that, in our business? Time = Money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for low cost. But, let's compare apples to apples, D90's to MkII's, and not Apples to Steak.

I'm just sayin'.

John Sandel
09-30-2008, 11:06 PM
You're making me hungry, K.

I'm basing my judgement of the 5D2's manual controllability (#4) on what I've read. It sounds comparable to what you reported with the D90, but of course none of us knows for sure. I'll grant it's a semantic choice to call your methods "manual control"—I'm distinguishing it from automatic control. You & some others have reported better success than I'd expect you'd have with an all-automatic camera.

If I'm justified, then, in describing the 5D2's controls as manual, whether the effects are repeatable (#5) isn't up to the machine, but to the photographer. That just requires creativity and diligence, as you once noted.

Success (#6) with those effects is subjective. I wasn't sure why you said "repeatable successful results," since repeated unsuccessful attempts are undesirable. But I went with it for the purposes of defining how the 5D2, e.g., is very likely as useful as the Red (or any other camera), even though it costs so much less.

John Sandel
09-30-2008, 11:08 PM
BTW, it's precisely because time is expensive that I hope that getting handy with the 5D2 will reduce my lighting time. So, to answer: yes, I considered it.

Luis Caffesse
09-30-2008, 11:19 PM
Don't forget to throw codec and compression into that list as well.
Seems unfair to make the comparison without mentioning the huge advantage of shooting Redcode Raw.
While you're at it you should probably add variable frame rates and on board audio recording quality to the list.


But, I'm with Kholi - apples to steaks...

John Sandel
09-30-2008, 11:32 PM
I sorry I'm not being clear. The comparison wasn't my idea—I'm just responding to it:

Chris_TC: What if I don't want 1/30th? [I.e., on the 5D2.]
f64manray: "Then I guess you clould pay $30,000 for a for Red One with less low light capability."
Kholi: "You mean 23k for a working dedicated video acquisition system with manual controls for repeatable successful results."

That implies the 5D2 is less useful by comparison, but both are useful tools.

It's such a small point, but an important one: saying the cameras are comparable isn't the same as saying they're equal. In this case, I don't think they are equal. But all tools can & should be compared on their fitness for a specific job.

I'm just sayin.

Kholi
09-30-2008, 11:49 PM
Don't forget to throw codec and compression into that list as well.
Seems unfair to make the comparison without mentioning the huge advantage of shooting Redcode Raw.
While you're at it you should probably add variable frame rates and on board audio recording quality to the list.


But, I'm with Kholi - apples to steaks...

Forgot about this! And, I always forget. This is also another major factor. You're stuck with H.264's compression. That's why I don't think the 5D is much better than a 720p image.

With RED, I've got the raw footage and I can Log and Transfer to some delicious 2k HQ ProRes for smaller projects.

BLUESPIDER
09-30-2008, 11:55 PM
you guys seriously think Canon is going to do 24p ,etc when they already have their Canon HD cameras? It's almost like Panasonic going hey, let's not let consumers buy the $5k HVX200 but buy our $1000 DSLR and get the same results. Good luck. I'm sticking with my Sony Hi8. :D

Luis Caffesse
10-01-2008, 12:05 AM
saying the cameras are comparable isn't the same as saying they're equal. In this case, I don't think they are equal. But all tools can & should be compared on their fitness for a specific job.

Fair enough, good points.

Though you have to admit - at a certain point the comparison becomes a bit laughable.
I mean, in this case, other than the sensor size and removable lenses - these cameras really have nothing in common.

f64manray
10-01-2008, 02:49 AM
Canon 5D MKII, $2,699. Shooting in Times Square with a 35mm full size sensor with incredible lowlight ability without a permit, priceless.


Also, apples are good for you. Steak is bad, even though you think you prefer steak. ;-)


Here is Vincent's latest reply to a query about the 5D MKII exposure controls:


JRW - and YANG -
first of all - DON’T BUY OR NOT BUY the camera based on my recommendation - I am not a Canon rep …. remember: I had no manual, details are still murky - and I haven’t had a chance to see the camera let alone use it since that weekend…

With that said:
I spoke w/ Chuck - as it is indeed essential that we do get this crystal clear. To my understanding and this is “key” -it’s my understanding and not something I have been able to try myself…- everything I have said is true - but let’s re-iterate:

You cannot set the exposure, aperture, and ISO manually in any video mode or in the “M” mode - period.

HOWEVER: you can effectively have the camera do this by locking the exposure by using the “*” button … and it’s really not that difficult at all.

While you can’t set everything manually (agree this is a professional need - we all know it) you can do the following: set it to any mode - I personally set it to Aperture priority mode - set it to f2 or f2.8 - and then turned on live view…

The aperture starts at f2 therefore, the camera then picks a shutter speed (between 1/30th and 1/125th) and then sets the ISO automatically… once you hit the “*” button - those settings are LOCKED in… the key point here is: that by pointing it to a darker or lighter area - you can “force” the shutter speed and/or ISO to go in the direction you want it to… note: I never had to do this once during my filming of “Reverie” - but it’s at least possible - in case you want to do something real funky…

So… you can (through a work around) lock the exposure down to your desired settings… and still use the EV +/- dial in the back to correct up or down from that locked starting point as you shoot…(if you wish)

Granted having it all “manual” would be key. But don’t forget - this is a first gen camera… it doesn’t have all of the “pro” bells and whistles..

Also take into account - that the entire reverie movie was shot WITHOUT the “*” exposure lock… and only on the Empire State tight shot do you see that as I panned won - camera closed the exposure down… so it’s pretty dead on to start with and you can easily open the camera up or down to over or underex with the back control dial…

So for me it works. Not perfect - but very very well. Make sense?
there is an easy workaround - and I think it should assuage your and everyone’s concerns… one of the key things is to be able to “lock in” an exposure setting - so that it doesn’t change (on it’s own) as you shoot - THIS can be done - albeit with a workaround as opposed to dialing in the exposure settings on your own.

Rubbersquare
10-01-2008, 06:12 AM
didn't chuck whatshisname (it's early) specifically say you CANNOT set aperture or shutter priority for movie mode? i can't dredge all the way through these threads again. that was something i had read on vincent's blog and felt better about the camera. then chuck said, "nope" and i was torn. why can't they release a manual online?

John Sandel
10-01-2008, 09:51 AM
… other than the sensor size and removable lenses - these cameras really have nothing in common.

Agreed. I'd rather have one Red than 7.6 dSLRs of any quality. But I'll probably graduate to something like Ikonoskop's A-Cam first.

ESTEBEVERDE
10-01-2008, 09:52 AM
Bottom line is the Camera needs full manual control.

Canon needs to stop F'n around.

ESTEBEVERDE
10-01-2008, 09:53 AM
Agreed. I'd rather have one Red than 7.6 dSLRs of any quality. But I'll probably graduate to something like Ikonoskop's A-Cam first.

I would of course love to see the images first.

rawfa
10-01-2008, 12:59 PM
I find it weird that canon would launch a camera with 30p in Europe, since this has never happened before (HV30 pal doesn't have 30p. the G1/G2 didn't have 30p and so on)...or am I wrong?

Bebel
10-02-2008, 02:41 AM
canon reads vincent's blog so if you really want 24fps added to the d5 mkii this is what he has to say:

24 p and 1/48th is key… keep going… they will understand that it’s a must do firmware update…
i understand that it’s a silly tactic - but it works a lot better than a carefully crafted e-mail or letter… trust me. if we hit 500+ comments asking for 24p - they can’t ignore it.. (i don’t have ads on this blog - therefore i’m not looking to drive up hits… there is no ulterior motive here other than to make an impression on canon.)

so go here and make a comment requesting 24fps:


http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/09/26/original-raw-clips-from-reverie-now-available-for-download/#comments

tell all your film friends to bombard vincent's blog with this request.


act now and say what you want!

..1'000 requests needed by sun, oct 5!!!

ESTEBEVERDE
10-02-2008, 11:23 AM
24p is on the way out! (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1420523#post1420523)


The only reason we really need various frame rates on this camera is to please the old timers who want, no, have to have that 24p flicker look.


Fair enough. No problem with intermediate transitions.


What the camera really needs though is full manual controls.

joe 1008
10-02-2008, 11:42 AM
24p is on the way out! (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1420523#post1420523)


The only reason we really need various frame rates on this camera is to please the old timers who want, no, have to have that 24p flicker look.


Fair enough. No problem with intermediate transitions.


What the camera really needs though is full manual controls.

Estebeverde, you might be right. You might not. Fact is, in Europe 30p is completely useless. You need 25p, here. I'm getting tired reading about that 24p against 30p discussion and I don't know why I'm keeping posting about it...

ESTEBEVERDE
10-02-2008, 11:45 AM
Estebeverde, you might be right. You might not. Fact is, in Europe 30p is completely useless. You need 25p, here. I'm getting tired reading about that 24p against 30p discussion and I don't know why I'm keeping posting about it...


Right.

We do indeed need 25p in Europe!


I am all for the Camera having all of the Frame rates it's easily capable of which would seem all of the usual and necessary variants at least below 30p.


That is another reason while 24p is going out the door.

Standardization.


We will indeed come up with a standard frame rate and format that can be used in all markets.


It's almost inevitable.