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joe 1008
09-26-2008, 09:27 AM
Just discovered this on Vimeo:

http://vimeo.com/1817329

http://vimeo.com/1815853

The 2nd video shows rolling shutter under forced circumstances. But also great low light capability and great dynamic range. Seems this camera loves low light. The daylight scenes of the first clip are not that impressive, but that might also be because of the mediocre camera work.

booggerg2
09-26-2008, 10:02 AM
1st one was all shot with macro lens so the shallow DOF tells us very little..

Too bad the 2nd one was shot in low light so it doesn't really tell us anything.. other than to paint a better picture of the rolling shutter.

ESTEBEVERDE
09-26-2008, 12:03 PM
Jello!

booggerg2
09-26-2008, 12:40 PM
So glad I canceled my pre-order..

Jello, 30p, and also lack of control over aperture..

The 5D2 is a great still camera, one worthy of the $2700 price tag, but the video side leaves much to be desired, and it is not enough for me to rush out for a pre-order... I might still get one one day.

beckspace
09-26-2008, 12:48 PM
itīs just me or the D90 seems to have a better dynamic range?

ESTEBEVERDE
09-26-2008, 01:24 PM
The second video makes it obvious what Laforet went through the trouble and expense of using a gyro.


I would be interested to know how many shots were locked down or used the gyro?

Matthew Bennett
09-26-2008, 01:30 PM
God Bless this man for creating this clip!

Just when we thought there was a worldwide conspiracy to rig all camera footage before everyday users get a hold of it and 'break it', this wonderful man comes along and simply.... pans violently.

Never has a shaky hand held so much power. This simple shaking movement has lost Canon millions of dollars in sales. They lost my buck right there.
I'd still like to have one, though, just to play around with, but not as any kind of 'investment'.

joe 1008
09-26-2008, 02:01 PM
God Bless this man for creating this clip!

Just when we thought there was a worldwide conspiracy to rig all camera footage before everyday users get a hold of it and 'break it', this wonderful man comes along and simply.... pans violently.

Never has a shaky hand held so much power. This simple shaking movement has lost Canon millions of dollars in sales. They lost my buck right there.
I'd still like to have one, though, just to play around with, but not as any kind of 'investment'.

Disagree. It's a CMOS and of course there is rolling shutter. Even a RED has rolling shutter and also the EX1 has. Shake an EX1 at full focal length and you will have a similar amount of wobble and skew. To me the rolling shutter of the 5D seems totally controllable, also the exposure/shutter issue will be so. For run & gun go with the HPX170, but until now, considering what I've seen, I would prefer the 5D for DOF work before sticking a 35mm adapter on any small sensor camera.

Daniel Aragão
09-26-2008, 02:03 PM
if somebody had done a professional look short with the d90 (like the one done with the canon 5d), i think the footage wouldīve been great as well.

anyway, ive seen lots of footage of d90 on vimeo, but after all the discussion to make the image clean, without grain, with less compression issues (stair stripping) and locked good with manual lens, i havent found anything that uses all these tricks...if there's something out there, could someone post a link?

thanks

NikonGuy
09-26-2008, 02:15 PM
Seems like 5D is not much better then the D90 regarding jello, it's just jello in 1080p at 30p.

Laforte could just hide it well with his gyro thingies.

timmytimetravel
09-26-2008, 02:20 PM
Re: semi-professional nikon d90 creative vid.

I couldn't find one. So I'm going to do one. I started a post here http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=148151 looking to solidify the collective experts advice before I start. I'm only doing it for that exact reason. Can't see an example of that yet.

You can see from the post its already like a growing summary of tricks and things to avoid to make it work.

I mean there is Nikon's original little clips, and the chase jarvis stuff which is getting close ... but... hmmm...
Be nice if Nikon made one!


Re this vimeo video, great to see something other than vince out there!

If you break it down though, what does it really tell us? If you took the top two/three.

1) Shakey handheld non stabilized footage. Any camera without some sort of built in OIS etc, and I doubt canon has nailed it first try either. VR works great for stills, but not so hot for moving shots, it's not designed for it... so far..

Does anything in this clip indicate is is any better/worse? This is where gyros would really help above and beyond anything else.

2) Jello cam. Rolling shutter. Are they one and the same? Or are we talking about two different things here?

On fast pans. I agree, even though its somewhat related to "you dont do that on 24p", I have other cameras that run in 24p, and if I whip pan them, I get motion blur and other things, but I dont get jellovision...

Agree? Disagree? Most lkely there is some long ago found special sauce in video cams to deal with it that has not made it into dslr's yet.

timmytimetravel
09-26-2008, 02:26 PM
Seems like 5D is not much better then the D90 regarding jello, it's just jello in 1080p at 30p.

Laforte could just hide it well with his gyro thingies.

Now I am really keen to see the results of the d90 gyro tests from a member below to see if it gets rid of jello... Instinct tell me it will only solve shaky footage, and it the lack of pans that are avoiding the jellos... Now I am going to watch vince again, looking for pans :)

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=147916

NikonGuy
09-26-2008, 02:38 PM
Im no expert, but it seems in this footage that the 5DII is managing jello a little better then the D90, it seems somewhat smoother, which could be down to the framerate. But it's definately obvious.

One other thing i noticed, 5DII seems to handle exposure changes better. It's smoother and not as jumpy as D90.

I'd love to see a somewhat professionally made D90 clip though, i know it can make great things in the right hands, so i wish you the best of luck and look forward to it.

ESTEBEVERDE
09-26-2008, 03:10 PM
Seems like 5D is not much better then the D90 regarding jello, it's just jello in 1080p at 30p.

Laforte could just hide it well with his gyro thingies.


Well.

To be sure he did use gyros and made his shot selections with great precaution not to induce the Jello.

He also used sever $1000s of dollars in glass and other support equipment.

I asked him to tally up the rental or purchase price of all the gear he used.

No response yet.


His $5000 video is more likely a $10,000+ video at least.


But, he is a damn good artist and I would love to see him here to learn film making.

If he did that I can't begin to imagine what he could shoot.



On a somewhat related note:

It would also be great for him and someone like Steven Dempsey to hook up and share trade secrets/craft. It would most certainly help excel Laforets travel through the learning curve. And it would give a Steven Dempsey access to more projects and connections.

I think Steven Dempsey is as good as any I've seen he just needs his big break.

[/slightly off topic mini tangent]

timmytimetravel
09-26-2008, 03:48 PM
I'm starting to wonder if jellovision / rolling shutter isn't mostly about shutter speeds as well as panning.

Has anyone actually tried to get an exact 1/48 shutter speed... hmmm... How? Before going into LV and see if it's any better? Strikes me like a framerate / flouro light type thing...

its all about oscillation baby! Maybe all it needs is a little firmware, "hey, you can now fix 1/48 in lv mode option"!!!

Well.. probably not... I cling to hope...

timmytimetravel
09-26-2008, 04:44 PM
Well, I reviewed Vince's video again. No pans. I mean. Zero.
Closest is panning the helicopter very slowly.
In the behind the scenes, about 1/5 way in, there is a shot with some scaffolding. Not clear as to if its with the d90 or the xha1 , but even if it was, pan too slowly to see what the story is with jello.

Nice to see the little gyro under the canon for the handheld though. I really really want to try it now. I mean steadicam pros use these (usually in pairs) to make their footage even "steadier", especially if a long lens shot is required.

But what IF! Just if! It pretty much had enough wow to counter a gait? You could then skip the steadicam and just put one of these under your d90.
I'm not talking cruising backwards like vince is in a hurry in that shot, you can obviously still see a very handheld look, although not shakey.

I suspect not. It's going to clean up little jerks, but not counter a gait.

So great in combo with steadicam, but on it's own it it really only going to let you get locked off shots handheld - think "mega VR" vs a shot in which you take a step. And if you are standing around getting your locked off's handheld... use a monopod :)

Still to clean up "handheld look" footage, to the point which you are not sick. Which is nice....
Think, "the office" :)

Also, I tried locking a ED lens just then to a shutter speed and then AE-L into LV. Seemed on the surface to make no difference, even at 50 which would be pretty close to 1/48...
Again, no guarrantee even in manual, ed glass, can set shutter only forced mode - that is is actually reading that into LV mode, chances are, as with AF glass, its making up its own mind completely....which takes us back to the point of crazy methods to fix a shutter speed.

Still worth it if it fixes jellocam....

dcloud
09-26-2008, 05:41 PM
So glad I canceled my pre-order..

Jello, 30p, and also lack of control over aperture..

The 5D2 is a great still camera, one worthy of the $2700 price tag, but the video side leaves much to be desired, and it is not enough for me to rush out for a pre-order... I might still get one one day.god how many times do you have to keep repeating yourself.:thumbdown

Emanuel
09-28-2008, 12:28 AM
Disagree. It's a CMOS and of course there is rolling shutter. Even a RED has rolling shutter and also the EX1 has. Shake an EX1 at full focal length and you will have a similar amount of wobble and skew. To me the rolling shutter of the 5D seems totally controllable, also the exposure/shutter issue will be so. For run & gun go with the HPX170, but until now, considering what I've seen, I would prefer the 5D for DOF work before sticking a 35mm adapter on any small sensor camera.I fully agree.

fahreza
09-28-2008, 12:55 AM
great post. at least now i know the 5dmk2 is only slightly better than the d90 in terms of jello and skew.

beckspace
09-28-2008, 01:22 AM
Red One is on the market for two years and only now people seems to get the CMOS rolling shutter issue so seriously.

If Soderbergh managed to deal with it, most of us can do it

forget the FUD. every equipment has limitations. Just acknowledge them and shoot.

DallasZhen
09-28-2008, 02:59 AM
It's good to finally see a clip which really shows us worst-case rolling shutter artifacts. It's definitely there, although much better than the d90. I'd put it on par with the HV20 or EX1 though, compared to these test clips:

Rolling Shutter HV20 test 24p wobbling on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/819044)
Sony PMW-EX1 Skew and Wobble Test on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/1451404)