Any EX1 regrets?

[TheMusician]

First off, I want to make it clear that I am not trolling or looking to start any wars. I really need your input, so consider it more like a poll. I have to buy a new camera by early October and have narrowed it down to the HPX170 and the EX1. Both are unarguably outstanding cameras. I guess what I want to know is if you as EX1 owners have any regrets in your decision to get an EX1? For instance, are the ergonomics so horrible as to make your regret buying one? Have rolling shutter issues bitten you bad enough at some point to make you regret buying one? Do you wish that you had gotten an HPX170? Have the IR issues made you regret buying it? OR, are you simply glad you did buy it and would do it again? Thanks for any input.

[matthew77]

No regrets. The best handheld camera I have used.

The issues you mention are well understood and are not issues for me.

[Fohdeesha]

I don't have a single regret, and haven't had any issues with any of the "problems" people report. I have shot in a variety of situations and have never noticed the rolling shutter, IR problems, etc. It puts out the most beautiful picture I've ever seen, and using peoples suggestions to tweak the picture profiles, it keeps getting more beautiful.

I was worried about the 4:2:0 compression compared to the hvx's 4:2:2, but haven't found it to effect quality at all. I can push the colors very very far in post, more than I'd ever realistically need to. It probably has something to do with the vast amount of color information inherent in a signal from 3 full raster 1080p sensors.


I went back and forth between the ex1 and the hvx for about a month, and took a chance with the ex1. Best decision I've ever made.

[Buck Forester]

As for me and my household, I'd buy again in a heartbeat. And I may get a second one soon, but I'm just seeing how all this next generation stuff plays out. I'm intrigued, as a Canon 5D shooter, how the video 'really' is on the new Canon 5D Mark II... I'd love to use my Canon L glass in the field to also shoot video. So far to me it looks pretty cool but we'll see how it holds up to scrutiny when it hits the market. I'm sure I'll be upgrading just for the still photography of it regardless. I'm also intrigued by the proposed "DSLR-Killer" talked about by RED. If anything I want to go smaller and lighter for what I'm doing. But I love my EX1 and I'd love to have two... if I'm doing time lapses in the wilderness during magic hour time, I'd like to have another one for regular shooting too. But this stuff gets heavy to lug around, ha!

I loved my EX1 straight from the box, but the longer I have it, the more I love it.

[TheMusician]

Thanks for your input matthew and Fhodeesha. Maybe there is something that you could clear up for me. I went to B&H and checked out their cameras and they weren't too positive about the EX1 which really surprised me. The Panasonics have a film-like appearance to their colors right out of the box, and out of the box the EX1 look more "video-ish", but so incredibly clean. But B&H also had the EX1 on an entirely different brand of monitor than all of the other cameras so an A/B comparison was simply not possible. So my question is, with all the color controls that are available, can you tweak the camera to have a more full-colored, warmer image like a Panasonic, or is it impossible? Thanks.

[TheMusician]

Buck, I recently saw some video footage from the new Canon 5D and to put it simply, it was stunning. But it was also locked down shots, so hard to tell where they stand on the rolling shutter issue. But I have to say that I am stunned that Canon, CANON with the beautiful XH-A1 XL-H1, didn't make it have a 24p mode.... whats up with that? Oh well, but it is great to hear that you are enjoying your EX1.

[Buck Forester]

If you don't necessarily need the higher resolution and you like the footage of the Panasonics, I'd just go with what you like. No need to try and make the EX1 look like the Panasonic when you can just get the Panasonic to begin with... at least that's how I'd reason it.

I was just shooting my EX1 with no picture profiles, just the default out-of-the-box settings and I liked it (definitely not film-like though), but then I watched one of the EX1 training DVDs and I punched in a recommended picture profile and WOW!, it changed the whole look... more vivid, better highlite control, etc. Now I feel like I have a new camera again! The options for tweaking picture profiles in the EX1 is nearly endless, so I'd think that shooting 24p with detail off and the 'right' picture profile to give a more organic look would certainly be possible. But again, if the Panasonic gives that look you like right out of the box...

[Buck Forester]

Yes, with the new Canon 5D it's hard to really judge video from someone else's shoot and test how it does with rolling shutter and all the other factors. Since I doubt it's primarily designed for the cinematic crowd, I'm not surprised it doesn't have 24p. I could be wrong, but I'd bet it's more for the photographers shooting wildlife, landscapes, sports, weddings, etc., who want to be able to document the experience more so than making a fictional production. But then again, the sample footage shown is definitely of the 'cinematic' style, so who knows. If it's really good video with added 24p for less than $3 grand, I'd think they'd be overlapping some of their own profitable video markets.

[Fohdeesha]

Thanks for your input matthew and Fhodeesha. Maybe there is something that you could clear up for me. I went to B&H and checked out their cameras and they weren't too positive about the EX1 which really surprised me. The Panasonics have a film-like appearance to their colors right out of the box, and out of the box the EX1 look more "video-ish", but so incredibly clean. But B&H also had the EX1 on an entirely different brand of monitor than all of the other cameras so an A/B comparison was simply not possible. So my question is, with all the color controls that are available, can you tweak the camera to have a more full-colored, warmer image like a Panasonic, or is it impossible? Thanks.


check out some of the KERBEROS posts, a user here is shooting a flick with a naked EX1, and it's some of the best looking filmlike footage I've ever seen with a prosumer camera. As for the default picture profile, it does look pretty videoish. Thankfully you can change almost every aspect of the image to get it looking how you want.

And if you really want the hvx look, just cut half the CMOS sensors off then scale the result back up to HD:laugh:

[TheMusician]

I really do like the color of the Panasonic, and I think that it is a good story telling camera, but it just looks a little soft to me and is why I haven't run out the door and picked one up. On the other hand, the EX1 that I got to look at was crystal sharp, but had a more "reality TV" look, or something that would be perfect for hiking and outdoor work. So I am really interested to know if people have been able to tweak the colors to give it more of a storytelling look and retain all of that beautiful clarity?

[weixiang623]

it seems what you really want is 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color. You can do that buy purchasing the EX30 deck and record there through hd-sdi from the EX1/3. That would be your cheapest solution, either that or wait for that NanoFlash.

[booth]

My only regret is not having a Letus Extreme for it yet!


I was just shooting my EX1 with no picture profiles, just the default out-of-the-box settings and I liked it (definitely not film-like though), but then I watched one of the EX1 training DVDs and I punched in a recommended picture profile and WOW!, it changed the whole look... more vivid, better highlite control, etc. Now I feel like I have a new camera again! The options for tweaking picture profiles in the EX1 is nearly endless, so I'd think that shooting 24p with detail off and the 'right' picture profile to give a more organic look would certainly be possible. But again, if the Panasonic gives that look you like right out of the box...

Which training DVD did you get Buck?

[Buck Forester]

booth, I bought the Vortex Media "Mastering the Sony PMW-EX1". I'm sure the other ones are good too, but I really learned a lot from these DVDs (there's two DVDs in the set). As I was watching the DVD I punched in the profile he used as an example and I have another level of excitement now... the colors are vivid and beautiful and it looks like it has more contrast but with even more highlite control. I also have the same profile setting with saturation set to "20" for even more color... not quite as good on skin tones but it sure makes landscapes suh-weet! I prefer 30p so most folks probably wouldn't consider it "film-like". Watching this stuff on my 55" TV it is so sharp and so clear and so vivid... I should be able to start getting out in the next couple of weeks and do some nature stuff. I want to document the eastern Sierra aspens turning gold. I'll get some footage up when I can and provide a link.

[radar]

so Phil bloom and company... top notch cinematographers... are not "telling a story" with the ex1?... there is enough info on these boards for you to make a decision. I was very close to getting an hvx but went with the ex1 for a number of sound reasons... Now I have an ex3 and I am happy with that decision, and another dvxuser is happy with the ex1 I sold him.

If you have until October before you buy... go see for yourself and decide which is best for you.

Peace

[TheMusician]

Of course Phil Bloom is an excellent story teller! I should have been clearer. My opinion is that the panasonic look is better geared towards narrative work, and that the EX1 towards live events and documentary style stories. Phil Bloom is getting some of the most beautiful footage to date out of the EX1 which I think comes in large part by his using Looks to color his footage, but unforunately he is the only one that I have seen getting that look. When I go to Vimeo and look at the EX1 footage, it looks stunningly beautiful but more of a Discovery Channel look and not a narrative look. Lots of EX1 footage of people shooting concerts and travel footage, not much narrative work. But more importantly is why I am asking this question in this forumn. You all, who are users of the EX1, have you been happy with the flexibility of the image that you get from the EX1 or have you ever found it difficult to get the look that you are trying to achieve?

[basspig]

No regrets here. I already purchased a second EX1, and ultimately plan to end up with four, as I kick out the last of the HDV cams from my inventory.

My productivity has soared with the EX1s and the look of my product has become top-notch because of the quality source acquisition.

Color rendition is the most flexible I've seen on a camera, and I have no doubt that with understanding of how the color controls work, it should be possible to create or match just about any color rendition.

As a shooter who's very picky about sound, the EX1 is the first cam I've owned that has audio good enough to use for concert situations. I often shoot rock concerts and make DVDs for the bands at very affordable rates, thanks to minimal equipment setup and the avoidance of a separate sound recording system. The EX1 has made possible a high quality budget shoot that sounds like we used elaborate second audio recording systems.

Everything from its ability to work with little light, to the beautiful images, the tweakability, etc, eclipses any minor issues that are well-documented here and elsewhere. If you have the right editing tools to handle XDCam footage, then you will likely feel regret that you didn't buy this camera sooner. When I think of all the lost productivity I suffered through wtih HDV... hoo boy. XDCam is where it's at. If the memory cards come down in price, it will be sheer heaven.

[GuyB]

add a half pixel gausian blur to EX footage and it will probably look more like HVX footage, sharp, but softer, hahahaha

[TheMusician]

Thanks for the report basspig. I've seen and listened to some of your stuff and it looks and sounds great. Glad that it has increased your workload.

I will be shooting occassional weddings along with my other work. Have any had problems with photographers or family shooting flashes during the ceremony? Do they have to be close to really cause a problem? Do the clients even notice if there is a half exposed frame or do they totally miss it?

[Fohdeesha]

it seems what you really want is 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color.


That makes about zero sense.

[Stevet]

One thing I noticed is Sony firmware 1.1 improved the peaking function for focus on the EX1.

It's real sensitive now. Peaking shows up now in real low light. You can nail focus in low light!

[weixiang623]

That makes about zero sense.

...I thought i was typing in English...

Let me type it out again...
It seems what you really want is 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color.

Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying... let me try again...
It seems what he really wants is 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color.

That seems to be very straight-forward... ok about about
It seems he wants the resolution from the Sony EX, and the color from the Panasonic.

maybe, perhaps, that makes a small, little sense to you?

[PerroneFord]

My only regret with the EX1 is that I couldn't get more of them. There isn't another camera in the price range I'd rather own. Period.

Same people talking smack about how this camera is overly sharp are drooling over the Scarlet and RED.

Whatever.

[alexdias]

I recently moved from Panasonic to the EX-1 and 3. I used the HVX and Varicam extensively the past 2 years so maybe my perspective can be of some help.
The first time I used the EX-1 I was very impressed by the sharpness, light sensitivity and the LCD. Especially the LCD made a huge difference on my work, I could actually "see" things that on the HVX I hope were there. That same day I had some issues with the rolling shutter and that was not very impressing.
At the end after careful and elaborate considerations I decided to start a project with the EX-3. The camera has its issues and de rolling shutter is the biggest for me, and it will limit my filming, but the low light capacity on the HVX also limited my filming and increased my color correction tremendously (noise issues).
So, there's no simple answer for your question right now.
At this price level you'll have to make a choice.

On this month's American Cinematographer magazine there's an article with Roger Deakins saying that every shot he ever did on his life was a compromise.
It figures.

[PerroneFord]

Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying... let me try again...
It seems what he really wants is 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color.


The EX1 already has nearly as much color info as the HVX/HPX, so that's moot.

[basspig]

Thanks for the report basspig. I've seen and listened to some of your stuff and it looks and sounds great. Glad that it has increased your workload.

I will be shooting occassional weddings along with my other work. Have any had problems with photographers or family shooting flashes during the ceremony? Do they have to be close to really cause a problem? Do the clients even notice if there is a half exposed frame or do they totally miss it?

Photographer's flashes are really not going to be a problem--unless you export that one frame for use as a photographic print for the bride. I shot a concert last Thursday where, despite a pre-concert announcement banning flash photography and recording devices, was rife with flashes going off. The only thing is messed up was a few frames of my keyed video--not because of rolling shutter--but because the flash momentariliy caused the backdrop's color to change to white and no longer be in the key color range. In a normal video playback, no client who was not intimately familiar with this issue and a cameraman, would ever notice it.

Yeah, I've been shooting a lot more video lately than with HDV and SD prior. I've also been subcontracting for others, because I have the EX1s.

Last Thursday, I relied upon the EX1's audio circuitry to record a concert, with external microphones. That audio turned out excellent (well up to the limit of Molly Hatchet's PA system, which was better than most I've worked around.

[weixiang623]

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=142930

This is not an EX1, but this is a CMOS camera... have fun w/ it.

[Fohdeesha]

...I thought i was typing in English...

Let me type it out again...
It seems what you really want is 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color.

Maybe you don't understand what I'm saying... let me try again...
It seems what he really wants is 1920x1080 with 4:2:2 color.

That seems to be very straight-forward... ok about about
It seems he wants the resolution from the Sony EX, and the color from the Panasonic.

maybe, perhaps, that makes a small, little sense to you?



That part makes perfect sense. What I don't understand is how you think less color compression will equal the more blurred, soft film like image that the hvx has.

[TheMusician]

Alexdias, I really appreciate that input from someone who has used both Panasonic and the EX1. I understand what you are saying concerning rolling shutter being a problem with the EX1, but noise being an equally big problem for you on the HVX200. It seems that things are a little different now since Barry Green and others are reporting that the HPX170 has noise levels and sensitivity comparative to the EX1. But apart from the rolling shutter, are you happy with the look that you have been able to get from the camera with your style of shooting compared to the HVX?

Basspig, thanks again for the report on the Molly Hatchet shoot (which must have been a really cool gig for you) I am only concerned with flashes if they are up too close. It seems like if they are far enough away and are behind the camera, it is really hard to spot much difference. It is when the camera is pointed at the flashes or flashes are right up on the subject like a paparazzi shoot that I have seen the biggest problems. I really don't have any concern for rolling shutter for 90% of what I shoot. But I am concerned about taking a wedding gig with a flash-happy family snapping a million pictures and tearing up the footage. I would really love to hear from people who have experience using this camera for a wedding where the occassional flash was taken. Anyone?

[Buck Forester]

Regarding flash... I haven't done a wedding but a couple months ago my 2 year old boy got a hold of my wife's point-n-shoot camera and was just clicking away while I filmed him with my EX1 (this was indoors), the flash was going off like crazy (I guess flashing is fun, ha!) and I did notice the half-frame rolling shutter thing happening. I was only a couple feet from him so it was close-up frame-filling flashes, but I was thinking this scenario is the weakness of the EX1. I literally run handheld with my EX1 a lot, jarring footage at times ( just got a stabilizer but haven't tried it yet), with no rolling shutter, but the flash thing is definitely a concern. I don't know about post-editing tricks to minimize it, I just know what I saw. From a distance camera flashes seem to be fine, but in your face, no.

[TheMusician]

Thanks Buck. What stabilizer did you finally decide to go with? (I remember you writing about the Sanda)

[delaro]

It seems that you want a bit more the HPX170. Buy the look that you like more. "28 day later", "Festen" and "Blairwitch" have been shot with miniDV. "Cloverfield" with a noisy HVX. And they were big success. HPX will be even better on the big screen. And you have more chance that your work, even music videos if you do some, will be seen on monitors, tv, internet, DVDs .... HPX will be f**** good on these. Filmlike, fantastic colors, great motion.

[Buck Forester]

I went with the Glidecam 4000. After I got it I received an email from Sanda saying they're ready for purchase, ha! I'll see how Sanda does in the user reviews, but I'm keeping the Glidecam for now. I haven't even had a chance to try it yet. I got the forearm brace for it too. I'm gonna hafta get back in good shape to use all this stuff in the backcountry... or vice versa. Ha ha!

[MattDavis]

Do you wish that you had gotten an HPX170? ... OR, are you simply glad you did buy it and would do it again?

I was --><--- that close to being an HVX200 person way back when. I've had an HVX in my life for 6 months whilst blushing as a serial Z1 owner. I shot my best work on an HVX, but it wasn't paid work.

The HVX wants an entourage around it. It needs to be fluffed, and loved, and it will perform amazing things. One of my shoots had a significant amount of SFX in it, and all people would say is how nice it all looked (they didn't see the SFX, but did notice the V6 filmic setting).

But now I have an EX1. It shoots progressive, it has a wide dynamic range of exposure, and it has a killer lens for sharpness and DoF without extra hardware. My work niche (corp/doc/candid) doesn't work well with Letus et al.

Clients have noticed the difference, are paying a small premium for it, that pays for the camera and for more cards over time.

The HVX/HPX range produce beautiful pictures, but needs a team behind it. Or plenty of time. I have to shoot alone, no rehearsals, no second takes. The Z1 was hateful for its sheer bloody adequacy. The HVX became unmanageable due to its entourage (for me!). The EX1 (and the EX3 which I will buy next year) is ideal. I can get film look, I can do better than DSR-570 look, I can achieve a new 'HD' look (very popular), and yes: it's a handful, it's not perfect, it will bite your hand if you feed it rubbish, the audio is a bit frightening if you're not careful, but for all its sins, it will work with you when you work with it.

But if I were not doing what I do, and were doing more theatrical stuff (including commercials and higher end corporate)? If I were doing more ENG or broadcast stuff? 2/3" rules. Or if I were making a movie on my own? HPX. If that were my goal, I'd be confident I could make good quality Corporates with it to fund my production.

[Daniel Alexander]

I've never had any regrets in regard to many of the problems i was afraid of such as rolling shutter/skewing etc as in the real world it's never affected me, however for the line of work I've recently gotten into which is mainly short films/theatrical based work, I have come to envy the more 'filmic' look i see from the hvx. I'm aware of the vast control I have over my EX1 in regard to picture settings however I have never managed to emulate that warmth i see time and time again on the panasonic, hopefully this will change when i purchase an sgpro, however here lies another problem as this particular 35mm adapter has yet to give me reference to any footage that looks 'superb'.

I love my EX1 but I think i would have opted for the panny if I knew then that I would be doing alot of films, that doesn't mean the EX1 can't do the job and do it well, I'm just saying that for me personally I like how the panny produces images more.

[Hot magma]

Had the unfortunate opportunity to edit footage shot with the EX-1, compared to P2 the workflow is horrible, nothing but problems. Then again this is basically a Panny site so I'm surprised more people could not or did not identify this problem. Plus if you do any pro work there is a lot less hand holding needed to be done with the editor or post house when working with P2.

In all honesty if Sony was selling the F900 for $1,000 I would find a problem with it because I hate Sony, so you can take everything I printed with a grain of salt.

[Daniel Alexander]

wow, sorry to hear you had such problems editing ex1 footage magma. What problems did you have? Im just curious because I've never had a problem with the footage, infact the whole post production process is one of the things I like most about this camera, i mean for myself working in FCP its as simple as: mark clips, import, start editing.

[Fohdeesha]

Had the unfortunate opportunity to edit footage shot with the EX-1, compared to P2 the workflow is horrible, nothing but problems. Then again this is basically a Panny site so I'm surprised more people could not or did not identify this problem. Plus if you do any pro work there is a lot less hand holding needed to be done with the editor or post house when working with P2.

In all honesty if Sony was selling the F900 for $1,000 I would find a problem with it because I hate Sony, so you can take everything I printed with a grain of salt.


what problems did you have? I honestly can't imagine the workflow being any simpler. double click in the project panel, and import the bpav folder. andddd your done, get to editing.

[Stevet]

I love my EX1 but I think i would have opted for the panny if I knew then that I would be doing alot of films, that doesn't mean the EX1 can't do the job and do it well, I'm just saying that for me personally I like how the panny produces images more.


Then why not sell the EX1? They sell for $5,000 on ebay and there's one right now with a bid on it.

You can pick up a NEW HVX200A for only $199 at B&H ($5,199)


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=558723&is=REG&%20Accessories_Professional%20Video%20Camcorders%2 0(ENG)_1881_Panasonic_AGHVX200A=&A=details&Q=#

[Stevet]

LOL, he already mentioned why> :)



because I hate Sony, so you can take everything I printed with a grain of salt.

[TheMusician]

Matt and Daniel, thank you both for lending me some insight into your experiences with your cameras. I have been responding to posts similar to this one over in the HVX forum, and one thing that I am certain of is that both the EX1 and the HPX170 are both incredible cameras. But even more so, at this point in the game and at this price range, there are always tradeoffs such as these:

- DVCPROHD is 100mbps 4:2:2 which is beautiful, but the codec only resolves 1280 x 1080 - a tradeoff

- The HPX170 uses spacial offset, which is a proven and effective technology, but leaves your image looking soft - a tradeoff

- Panasonics ergonomics are top notch, the EX1 is the bottom of the barrel - a tradeoff

- The EX1 delivers a beautiful full 1920x1080, but at this price point the only way that you can get it is to accept a rolling shutter and 4:2:0 color - a tradeoff

And the list goes on and on. I would buy a Scarlet today if it were available, but it is not and so I am stuck in the tradeoff decision making that I am sure each of you has delt with. I am pretty sure the next generation of CMOS will perform much better, but I need a camera today so I must make a choice.

Thanks for all of the input. Are there any other wedding shooters that would care to let me know if they have run into any serious issues with flashes during the ceremonies, or if lots of flashes have gone off but it rarely ruins your footage?

[Hot magma]

wow, sorry to hear you had such problems editing ex1 footage magma. What problems did you have? Im just curious because I've never had a problem with the footage, infact the whole post production process is one of the things I like most about this camera, i mean for myself working in FCP its as simple as: mark clips, import, start editing.

corrupted clips, used an Avid Nitris Symphony and that also compounded the problem. We could scrub through the clips but some would not play.

[Stevet]

The only way YOU will really know is to find users in your area that have these cameras where you can actually check them out yourself.

I can't count the times I've bought something only to find out there was something else I liked better that I should of bought.

Having said that, having access to have an own cameras from Sony, Panasonic, and JVC, I can't say that I wish I bought something else. Again, that's me. Like yourself, others may agree and disagree. The EX1 is quite the camera. Very clean sharp image And most important, it still holds detail with ARTIFICIAL enhancement known as sharpening OFF.

When you compare, that's one real test to try on other cameras. Some look too soft without artificial enhancement on.

[TheMusician]

Stevet, I was recently at B&H in New York to check everything out and I would have to say that I was pretty disappointed by their service. They had none of the tripods on the floor that I was interested in (Cartoni Focus, Sachtler FSB-6, Vinten Vision 3, Gitzo 1380, Miller DS20) When I asked to pick up the EX1 to see how it felt handheld and how I delt with the ergonomics, they told me that it was locked down and they had no way to release it. 90% of the cameras were all in a bin using the same Sony monitors, but the EX1 was set alone hooked up to a cheap monitor of a different brand that people had obviously adjusted as well as dialing in absurd picture profiles. So it was very difficult to compare the look of the EX1 to the HVX200a. From what I saw that day, even the XH-A1 (which is a fine camera) looked a ton better than the EX1. And to cap it off, the store employees were not supportive of the camera at all saying that they would prefer almost any other camera to the EX1.

I would love to get a second look to convince myself that the EX1 would work for me, but I live in Indianapolis and there is nobody here who sells it on a showroom floor. Anybody know of anyplace close to Indianapolis? Any EX1 owners in Indianapolis?

[Daniel Alexander]

Then why not sell the EX1? They sell for $5,000 on ebay and there's one right now with a bid on it.

You can pick up a NEW HVX200A for only $199 at B&H ($5,199)


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=558723&is=REG&%20Accessories_Professional%20Video%20Camcorders%2 0(ENG)_1881_Panasonic_AGHVX200A=&A=details&Q=#

I've decided to stick it out and make it work for me to be honest, plus the £200 would soon mount up when having to buy p2 cards, a decent field monitor for critical focus etc. Theres always tradeoffs, but like everyone (nearly everyone ;) )says, its a beautiful cam and does the job

[Stevet]

Yes, but you can get decent money for your SxS cards. I've seen the 16GB cards sell used for over $600.

If you're not happy, now is the time to unload. Especially when it's rumored that Sony will be offering these cams in 50mbps 4:2:2 in later EX versions.

[Noel Evans]

TO OP. I think someone mentioned camera choice is about trade offs, camera a has this, b doesnt and vice versa, its never going to be any different. I love the Sony high res, less saturated look for some things. I love the Pana saturation and look for others. Sure glad theres more than one choice out there. Im talking Sony in general here.

But to the EX, great sharp images and FWIW, I think DO think have a really nice filmic quality, if the cam is set up right, but thats the same as the Pana.

You mentioned youre a wedding shooter. This is one area I think you may need to look hard at the HPX170 as a tool. People always say we know all about rolling shutter and how to get around it, I say well some people dont and some situations dont allow for it. At a wedding, shooting an exterior daylight shot, no matter how many flashes, you wont see the issues. In a reception with dim lights and flashes, Id say irrespective of how your cam is set up, your going to see something.

Let me qualify this a bit, if someone said - heres a 170 and an EX, we want you to go to NYC and shoot daytime wide shots of buildings and people. I think Id probably pick up the EX (not having seen the 170 in action though). Why? Because, Id want max resolution I could get my hands on and the edit would be pretty much straight cuts.

So now someone says go shoot a wedding, heres a 170 and an EX1. Id take the 170. Why? Because I dont know if I am going to be free from a rolling shutter issue, and that could effect me in a few ways. If it does show up, and is noticeable, well client may be unhappy - and that effects future work and knowing it could be an issue, I would probably alter my shooting style to avoid and in doing so, may not get shots I know I am capable of - talking ME here. In addition to low light performance the 170 has a dynamic range stretch function, that will give me more when I am faced with low light situations. And in addition to that, shooting a building I can take a moment to adjust my exposure to perfection, at a wedding sometimes its rush rush rush, 170 has a waveform and vectorscope that, when you know how can get your exposure spot on and in a hurry. And to edit, Im a FCPS user and I find to ingest footage, I dont find it harder or easier to ingest from the EX or from P2. The p2 requires more disk space - so if thats your consideration then there you go, the EX footage takes longer to render - so if thats your consideration then there you go. A wedding though is usually stylised somewhat with effects and that can take considerable more render time with the EX footage. EX footage and FCP's Color give me a headache.

I think you will find few people will have tangible regrets when you ask do you regret buying camera a or b and will side with their decision, its emotional so of course they will. I think you need to be open to getting the best shots for your client based on circumstance, and sometimes that means regardless of what cam you OWN, you will need to rent another cam to do that.

Good luck with your decision.

[Stevet]

Great job at putting it all in perspective Noel!

[thefilmaddict]

No regrets. I've owned the HVX200. The switch was worth it for me.

[TheMusician]

Noel, that may have been one of the best posts I have read in awhile. Thank you for your valued input. I have been following these boards for years and enjoyed your past work on both the XH-A1 and the HPX500.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I live in Indianapolis. Unforunately, it is very hard to rent cameras here in this price range(only broadcast camera are easy to get), so I am really shooting for the "best-bang-for-the-buck" - or in the case of videographers, the "most-situations-covered" camera. Thanks again for your thoughts.

[Fohdeesha]

Hey man! I'm actually in Carmel, about 20 minutes north of Indianapolis. I'd be glad to meet up and let you get a feel for the EX1, just shoot me a pm on here.

[philip bloom]

No regrets for me. Selling my HVX and buying an EX1 was best thing I ever did. It isn't Magic Bullet Looks that makes my footage look like it is. It's a combination of many factors. I have done some lovely stuff out of a naked EX1 too, not just with the Letus...

[TheMusician]

Phil, it is always great to get a reply from you. I hope you were not offended by my mention of Looks, because we all know what beautiful images that you have produced and that a lot more is involved in getting them. I realize that it is a combination of many things like DoF, lighting, picture profiles, composing, post, as well as many other things that make your footage truly professional. But your images do have a warmer, fuller feel in the color than most EX1 footage I've seen and I remembered you saying that you color correct with Looks which is why I mentioned it. To hear that you have had no regrets is very reassuring and I appreciate you taking the time to post.

I suppose it would be highly unlikely that you have shot a wedding with the EX1/EX3, but if you have shot any concerts or venues with a medium amount of flash photography, I would love to hear how much of an issue it turned out to be for you (you got me pretty excited when you posted about the firmware upgrade improving flash, too bad it didnt turn out that way). Thanks.

[SPZ]

I've been struggling on this too. Ex1 or HPX170.

However, I'm a very happy HVX200 user. After much tought... I will skip the current generation of HD cams (ex1, ex3, HPX170) and wait for the "Scarlet Generation".

If I had no camera, tough, I would probably go... HPX170. Like a fellow DVXuser used to say in his signature, the HVX/HPX is "the swiss army knife" of videocameras. It shoots in DV, DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO HD 720p and DVCPRO HD 1080i/P, it has variable frame rates, is absolutely wonderful in post-production. (Two years ago the HVX, P2 and DVCPRO HD where the best possible transition from my former SD workflow- could still use my G4 and PowerMac G5 for edit realtime without the rendering issues of HDV- and I missed the HDV format incompatibility phase which affected all NLEs)

I, however, do a lot of varied work, from TVC's to Event Coverage, so I need a camera that is not probably the ultimate performer, but a reliable all rounder that keeps up in every scenario of video production. The EX1 undoubtedly excels in DOF, Video sharpness, Lens and Low Light. Which means that I f I was only to shoot narrative/ filmmaking projects, I would go EX1. But it does have its issues and limitations. I tried an EX1 and couldn't provoque a rolling shutter shot that I consider unnusable, but it exists and In cities full of Neon and flashes like Asian cities, its a gamble I can't take- at least if this was to become my only camera.

As an HVX200 owner tough, If I had the money to buy a new camera now, it would be the EX1. Since I already have a "swiss army knife", I would keep the HVX for certain jobs, and would use the EX for Indie filmmaking/Documentaries. However, the jump is just too "little" from the HVX to the EX1. So "Scarlet"- a year away, I know- it is :) .

[philip bloom]

I suppose it would be highly unlikely that you have shot a wedding with the EX1/EX3, but if you have shot any concerts or venues with a medium amount of flash photography, I would love to hear how much of an issue it turned out to be for you (you got me pretty excited when you posted about the firmware upgrade improving flash, too bad it didnt turn out that way). Thanks.

actually I shot my best friend's wedding 3 months back on two ex1s. Looked superb but the flashes were bad, the new firmware def improves the problems but doesn't eliminate it!

[Sumfun]

Especially when it's rumored that Sony will be offering these cams in 50mbps 4:2:2 in later EX versions.

Would be great to have this, especially if it includes 4 channels of audio. Any idea when?

[philip bloom]

Would be great to have this, especially if it includes 4 channels of audio. Any idea when?

first i have heard of it. But everything is possible and more than that v likely. The competition is hotting up from unexpected corners and there are also problems with certain major HD broadcasters refusing to accept 4:2:0 35mpbs so am sure it would be in Sony's interests to bring out a camera which does what the broadcasters want...After all SXS can record 50Mpbs 4:2:2 as proven by the add on for the new 700 XDCAM camera.

[TheMusician]

Phil, I imagine being your best friend, that they were likely more aware of video issues than most. Did they notice or comment on the half frames, did you point them out, or did you choose to edit them out?

[philip bloom]

No, she is not technical. Nobody noticed them and I left them in. I could have "fixed" them if I had more time but I didn't!

[TheMusician]

SPZ, I am in the same exact boat as you are. If the Scarlet was available today, then this post would not exist(at least not from me) But I have to buy a camera in the next couple of weeks for some upcoming work, so I really can't wait. But when Scarlet arrives, I will be there.

[philip bloom]

SPZ, I am in the same exact boat as you are. If the Scarlet was available today, then this post would not exist(at least not from me) But I have to buy a camera in the next couple of weeks for some upcoming work, so I really can't wait. But when Scarlet arrives, I will be there.

when is the big question...with them starting again from scratch it will be some time before we get to play with Scarlet MK2! Can't wait of course as am sure it will be full frame 35mm with interchangeable lenses. it will have to be to compete with the burgeoning DSLR video market...

[TheMusician]

You didn't fix them?!? This girl must have meant a lot to you Phil :) Just kidding of course... but not really.

Joking aside, what is your post solution to fixing flashes if you had too? I have heard of using Knoll Light Factory, but I wonder if people are doing it effectively with like a half white frame over the picture with a special compositing mode?

[TheMusician]

Regarding the DSLR market, some of the footage that I have recently seen that a guy put together using the canon 5D MKII was flat-out gorgeous. But I get the gut feeling that the rolling shutter issues will be worse than the EX1 but we'll have to wait and see. If it is a problem though, Canon has had a very slow turnover rate on the 5D upgrades so we will have to see. Plus, why didn't they include a 24p option????

I get the feeling from RED that the DSMC and the Scarlet might get put together into one product. A guess of course, but with Canon and Nikon offering HD video with their still cameras, it is a logical conclusion. A 3K video camera that takes professional quality stills with tiny rolling shutter effects all in one unit would be sweeeeeet. Apparently, they are still planning on early 2009 even with the revamp...

[hantanbl]

I have shot 2 weddings with the EX1 after it was upgraded to firmware 1.11 and I can safely confirmed the partial flash has greatly reduced to a extent you will not noticed it. Before the upgrade, I used to put a white frame over the partial exposed frame and set opaque to about 60%. I no longer do this and the client did not notice it either. On the other forum, Philip Bloom also has the same observation. you might want to check it out

[alexdias]

Alexdias, I really appreciate that input from someone who has used both Panasonic and the EX1. I understand what you are saying concerning rolling shutter being a problem with the EX1, but noise being an equally big problem for you on the HVX200. It seems that things are a little different now since Barry Green and others are reporting that the HPX170 has noise levels and sensitivity comparative to the EX1. But apart from the rolling shutter, are you happy with the look that you have been able to get from the camera with your style of shooting compared to the HVX?

I'll give you my impressions in relation to the HVX. It's fair comparison even if the EX-3 is more $.
Well, I have done much so far, but as far as I did, like any other new camera, it takes a while to get use to the new style, weight, balance, etc...
Here's what I really like (no surprises here):
Excellent viewfinder, your framing and overall shooting will improve, I promise.
The lens is a joy very precise and sharp if compared to the HVX.
The 1/2 chip has a slighter shorter DOF for cinematic shots
The transfer time of the SxS is sooo much faster than the P2.
I really like the in between size and weight, it's smaller and lighter than a broadcast camera but more stable and has a better shape for handheld.

As far as color and settings go, I'm still struggling a bit. But it's a question of time and I know I'll get there.

The problems that I had with the rolling shutter was panning the camera a bit faster, or with a bus moving in front of the lens on a tighter shot, both cases I got the infamous "jellovision".
I'll have to deal with it.

These are my 2 cents.

[alexdias]

Stevet, I was recently at B&H in New York to check everything out and I would have to say that I was pretty disappointed by their service. They had none of the tripods on the floor that I was interested in (Cartoni Focus, Sachtler FSB-6, Vinten Vision 3, Gitzo 1380, Miller DS20) When I asked to pick up the EX1 to see how it felt handheld and how I delt with the ergonomics, they told me that it was locked down and they had no way to release it. 90% of the cameras were all in a bin using the same Sony monitors, but the EX1 was set alone hooked up to a cheap monitor of a different brand that people had obviously adjusted as well as dialing in absurd picture profiles. So it was very difficult to compare the look of the EX1 to the HVX200a. From what I saw that day, even the XH-A1 (which is a fine camera) looked a ton better than the EX1. And to cap it off, the store employees were not supportive of the camera at all saying that they would prefer almost any other camera to the EX1.

I would love to get a second look to convince myself that the EX1 would work for me, but I live in Indianapolis and there is nobody here who sells it on a showroom floor. Anybody know of anyplace close to Indianapolis? Any EX1 owners in Indianapolis?

Next time you are in NY go to AbelCine.
Someone once told me after listening to my complaints about B&H, "they are a electronic store, not a film/video shop. They sell small still cameras and TVs."
The Abel people will be glad to help you they are very knowledgeable.

[Sumfun]

first i have heard of it. But everything is possible and more than that v likely. The competition is hotting up from unexpected corners and there are also problems with certain major HD broadcasters refusing to accept 4:2:0 35mpbs so am sure it would be in Sony's interests to bring out a camera which does what the broadcasters want...After all SXS can record 50Mpbs 4:2:2 as proven by the add on for the new 700 XDCAM camera.

Of course you can do 50mbps 4:2:2 now with a Flash XDR or NanoFlash, but it would be nice to have it built-in the camera. The 4:2:0 is one of the shortcomings that Panasonic likes to bring up in comparisons, and as you say, it's frowned upon by some broadcasters. So it's the next logical step for Sony. I think it's just a matter of when.

Conversely, I think the next logical step for Panasonic is to migrate their AVC Intra codec to the prosumer line, so that they can output full raster 4:2:2 video.

Canon hasn't announced a new camera in some time, so it would be interesting to see what they do. With new competition from Red and the DSLR's, I'm sure there is pressure to shorten product refresh cycles.

[delaro]

Plus, why didn't they include a 24p option????


It's impossible, they have the xh-A1, the H1. they can't compete with their own products. I guess they will not launch 25p 5D II in europe neither. Let's wait for the big Nikon event with their big surprise. they can launch a still/video product without interfering with themselves. And they were the first to make the move. Canon then, and now probably Scarlet. It's very exciting but we will not have this kind of product before 6 monthes. Nothing will compete with EX1 & HPX170 at this price range anyway before this period.

[Stevet]

Yes, I heard that it appears that v 1.1 does have some affect on improving rolling shutter issues.

I have not checked for partial flash improvement, but I have noticed that the AF Peak function is more sensitive. It makes me wonder how they achieved this.

Also, I'm not 100% sure and it may be "just in my mind", but it "seems" like the EX1 appears to have lower noise after the upgrade.

[Carl Marxx]

:2vrolijk_08:The EX-1 and EX-3 are BBB Cameras. That does't mean Better Business Bureau, but, "best bang for the buck!" They are really advanced technicaly scaled versions of the Xcam generation designed for the blue-ray disk form of storage. The streem capacity is 38-39mbs which falls below the 35mps HQ mode in the EX-x series. These are entranecy level camras to the Sony EXCAM line. Basicly, they striped the blue-ray disk and replaced it with memory chips to stand side by side with Panasonic in the "new" tapless technology. They are "chips and glass" cameras of the highest technology packed in a small package, a videographers dream! No regrets! - Carl

[TheMusician]

I really have to say that I like what I am hearing. I mean, you come to an EX1 forum and ask a question like this and you expect that people are going to be happy with the choice that they made. But I am really surprised and happy to read that not one person has said "in hindsight, I wish I had gotten camera X instead of the EX1". Despite its horrible ergonomics and rolling shutter, it still seems that people feel that they made a solid choice, and that is great news. I can't tell you how much I appreciate all of the feedback.

[adamr316]

So now someone says go shoot a wedding, heres a 170 and an EX1. Id take the 170. Why? Because I dont know if I am going to be free from a rolling shutter issue, and that could effect me in a few ways. If it does show up, and is noticeable, well client may be unhappy - and that effects future work and knowing it could be an issue.

I'm surprised you'd choose the 170 over the EX1 for wedding work. In Event DV magazine the reviewer of the EX1 answered this very question as to why he didn't mention the rolling shutter issues of the EX1. His answer was that he has shot close to a hundred weddings with a CMOS camera (I think the V1U) and hasn't received one complaint about the camera flashes in his footage.

So if that says anything we may notice things more than clients because it's our jobs. But they're not bothered by it. I can tell you that people are a lot more bothered by dark footage (and they'll assume you didn't know how to expose your camera properly) or noisey footage. Dark and noisey lasts 30 (or 24) frames per second. A partial-frame camera flash is over in one.

For any interested parties see my Nikon Sb-800 flash test with the EX1 here: http://www.vimeo.com/1451532 . My skew and wobble test where I run with the camera is at http://www.vimeo.com/1451404

I am also a wedding shooter and a big reason I chose the EX1 was for its low light capability (although the 170 isn't too bad, just not "as good as") and possibly more importantly its recording time. P2's 100MBps data rate and 4:2:2 color information is fine and dandy but the bottom line is it records about a minute per gigabyte. The EX1 records at least 3 times that amount of footage...which saves time with switching out cards and maybe more importantly on hard drive space/transfer times.

Yes, you can tether P2 cameras to a hard drive but that's a whole other issue. Working around headphone cables is hassle enough, add a firewire cable to the mix that can come unexpectedly unplugged and that also requires a battery that only lasts 2-3 hours or so and we have issues. But even then transferring 100GB of data (and you'll need two of these Firestore drives for a full day of wedding shooting) to a laptop is not quick and easy.

[thxdave]

Adam, when you were changing the settings in your flash series, were you changing the shutter speeds on the camera or were you changing the power ratio settings on the back of the flash?

[adamr316]

Adam, when you were changing the settings in your flash series, were you changing the shutter speeds on the camera or were you changing the power ratio settings on the back of the flash?

I was changing the power settings on the strobe. The EX1 was set to shutter on at 1/60 for most of the video until the part where I turned it off. I didn't see much of a difference with the EX1 shutter off like many have said on these boards and others. If I could do the test again I would fire multiple shots off again in succession at the camera at different settings. I think the middle part of the test video (with my TV in the shot) really tells the tale of the camera/what to expect from the effect.

Just as an aside my camera has the 1.05 firmware installed. As others have said the new firmware has improved this even further.

[TheMusician]

Adam, do you shoot your weddings at 24p, 30p, 60i? What is the most common framerate for professional weddings?

[adamr316]

Adam, do you shoot your weddings at 24p, 30p, 60i? What is the most common framerate for professional weddings?

Looking around most videographers still shoot at 60i. Myself included. 24p is a lot more popular with the indy film crowd and event shooters haven't embraced that frame rate as much (I still hate the look of strobing). I'm not saying shooting 24p isn't good but most don't. I'm not sure about the high end market but the low-medium market is still 60i for the most part. Had 24p been an option twenty years ago who knows what would be the favored setting?

1080/60i is the mode the EX1 is most light sensitive at anyway (ISO 800). In the 1080/24p mode it's only about ISO 400.

I haven't had it happen yet but if a client requested a "movie look" or 24p specifically I would shoot at 720/24p IF the ceremony and/or reception was indoors and low light. 720/24p is approximately ISO500, so you gain about a third of a stop of light in exchange for resolution. Keep in mind the base shutter speed for 24p is 1/48 so if you're shooting 1/60 at 1080/60i and 1/48 shutter at 720/24p your 720 setting's sensitivity is about ISO640 due to the extra shutter gain.

[Arrik]

Actually cancelled my HPX170 two days ago just before shipping, I found a great deal on an EX-1. I'm sure I'll be as happy about my decision as you all are. :)

[TheMusician]

Arrik, what was your biggest reason for cancelling the HPX170 order - was it features and performance, money? I am interested in seeing the reports from new owners of the HPX170 since they have started shipping. Fun time to be buying a camera!

[Arrik]

First off, I'd be happy with the 170. I know this. I'm just tired of noise, and while I know the HPX170 would've given me a cleaner image than my 200, the Sony can do that with some more resolution. Reading Adam's review, it was all music to my ears. However, these improvements and features seem to make it a smarter tool and improve its utility, not necessarily an improvement in image over the HVX200A. Again, I'm ready for more resolution. I almost always shoot with a 35 adapter, and the resolution will be warmly welcomed. Price difference has kept me in 170's camp, but since I've found a great used deal, price is no longer an issue.

Also, Beat Takeshi and I will receiving our RED in a week or so, and I think the EX-1 will compliment the RED as a b-camera more appropriately than an HPX170. I've heard alot of good things from others who've used it in this manner.

Lastly, we'll still have one HVX for those requests for pana cine gamma magic so I'm not completely leaving Panny camp. We'll have the best of both worlds. I feel very fortunate.

[TheMusician]

Congratulations on finding a great deal, and even more so on getting a RED. That was a distant consideration for me as well, not with a RED ONE, but with a Scarlet. I will definitely be getting a Scarlet, and I remember seeing some posts by Jim Arthurs comparing the EX1 and RED footage and felt that the look was very comparable. So when I get a Scarlet, I feel that the EX1 will make a good B camera match and fear that the HPX170 will look a little too soft to cut well. Good luck with your new RED! I can only imagine how excited you must be.

[Stevet]

Congrats. You're going love the EX1.

One thing for sure, regardless of what cameras we own now, we ALL will own the Scarlet considering the $3K price.

[basspig]

Now that's an interesting thought... Beat Takeshi with an EX1 and a Red. :)
The portability of the EX1 makes it quite versatile. Nice to see the Japanese filmmakers using it too.

[Aujom]

Great thread! I'm in a very similar position...buy an EX1 or 170/200A? I have another huge consideration that hasn't been addressed yet. Which camera/recording format/highest quality codec has the better overall workflow in a FCP/After Effects environment?

I do a lot of After Effects work and therefore a smooth workflow is a deal-breaker or deal-maker. Does anyone have experience working with 1080p XDCAM EX and/or DVCPRO HD in AE? I'm curious how the interframe vs. intraframe recording compares. How the long-GOP MPEG-2 holds up when compositing, etc. I recently read a lengthy thread on another forum that described horrible color and gamma problems with DVCPRO HD when used with FCP and AE. Any insight is greatly appreciated, thanks!

[Noel Evans]

I'm surprised you'd choose the 170 over the EX1 for wedding work. In Event DV magazine the reviewer of the EX1 answered this very question as to why he didn't mention the rolling shutter issues of the EX1. His answer was that he has shot close to a hundred weddings with a CMOS camera (I think the V1U) and hasn't received one complaint about the camera flashes in his footage.

So if that says anything we may notice things more than clients because it's our jobs. But they're not bothered by it. I can tell you that people are a lot more bothered by dark footage (and they'll assume you didn't know how to expose your camera properly) or noisey footage. Dark and noisey lasts 30 (or 24) frames per second. A partial-frame camera flash is over in one.



So I wonder why you skipped quoting the part of my post that referred to the DRS on the 170?

Im not for either, simply offered OP my thoughts. And speaking of exposure, 170 has built in waveform, you cant get more accurate than that. I stand by my post - if I were a wedding shooter, and needed a new camera today, Id buy the 170. But we are JUST talking weddings here.

Its OK to quote someone, but keep it in context.

[alexdias]

So I wonder why you skipped quoting the part of my post that referred to the DRS on the 170?

Im not for either, simply offered OP my thoughts. And speaking of exposure, 170 has built in waveform, you cant get more accurate than that. I stand by my post - if I were a wedding shooter, and needed a new camera today, Id buy the 170. But we are JUST talking weddings here.

Its OK to quote someone, but keep it in context.

I agree. If you are looking for a camera to shoot weddings the EX-1 will give too many headaches.
The 170 will be very practical and at 720 pn you'll have enough time on the 16gig cards, even better with the 32 of course.
btw, 720 for big LCD or Plamas is more than enough, since these are probably the larger your image is ever going to be viewed.

I would also recommend the 170 if most of your work is handheld.

[Fohdeesha]

what headaches?

[basspig]

I do a lot of After Effects work and therefore a smooth workflow is a deal-breaker or deal-maker. Does anyone have experience working with 1080p XDCAM EX and/or DVCPRO HD in AE? I'm curious how the interframe vs. intraframe recording compares. How the long-GOP MPEG-2 holds up when compositing, etc. I recently read a lengthy thread on another forum that described horrible color and gamma problems with DVCPRO HD when used with FCP and AE. Any insight is greatly appreciated, thanks!


AE does NOT support XDCam format. Period. Big complaint I have with Adobe!

That said, I have saved XDCam footage out of Premiere as h.264 and edited that in AE successfully and the quality of the result is excellent.

[Hot magma]

btw, 720 for big LCD or Plamas is more than enough, since these are probably the larger your image is ever going to be viewed.


Not to mention when you consider that half of the cable networks take DV25 and upres to HD, 720 is fine

[adamr316]

So I wonder why you skipped quoting the part of my post that referred to the DRS on the 170?

Im not for either, simply offered OP my thoughts. And speaking of exposure, 170 has built in waveform, you cant get more accurate than that. I stand by my post - if I were a wedding shooter, and needed a new camera today, Id buy the 170. But we are JUST talking weddings here.

Its OK to quote someone, but keep it in context.

I skipped it because your post was long and I had to snip it somewhere to direct attention to what I was replying to (CMOS partial flash frame issues). Just like you snipped the strobe testing link, et al. out of mine...it was done to save readers from reading too much info. I didn't intentionally take out that part to misquote you, sorry about that if it appeared that way.

I just wanted to add to your previous post that SxS vs. P2 is more than just about disk space and ingest...it's about recording time. This matters the most in the field...aka the jungle that is weddings, LOL. Or any events for that matter.

Last week when I was shooting tons of footage for a conference every seminar easily went over an hour in length. One went 90 minutes and I didn't have to switch out cards and the EX1 didn't skip a frame of video...which is impressive to clients. I cannot imagine the hassle of having to swap out/offload cards every 16 minutes. Not to mention potentially distracting the presenters as you are swapping out cards and feeding them to your laptop/p2 drive.

Sure, I can buy two 32GB cards, but at that point I may as well buy a Canon A1 at that point. On MiniDV we were shooting 60 minutes per tape. When P2 came out that went down to 4 minutes (there were even 2 minute, 2GB models in the very beginning!). Still now the relatively affordable $850 16GB cards will only give you 16 minutes of footage in 1080/60i or 1080/24p modes. As opposed to 50ish minutes with 16GB SxS or 70 minutes in SP mode. With two 32 GB SxS cards I could shoot a whole wedding without swapping, what with their 200 minutes of combined recording time (or 280 minutes in SP mode!)

DVCPro HD is fine for shooting movies and I prefer the look of the HVX200 or HPX170. But in my line of work/area event/corporate gigs pay the bills and long running times are essential. Indy filmmaking is for fun and 95% of the time unpaid. So while the EX1 may not be the indy film king it can still do an awesome job.

As far as exposure...zebra stripes and the histogram are good enough for me. I will concede on the rendering times though, DVCPro HD is much better in this aspect when editing natively. I haven't used FCP with the EX1 yet but perhaps rendering out to ProRes will make work in Color easier/better?

Alexdias, what EX1 wedding headaches are you talking about? Wristaches, yes...hehe. I don't record events at 24p so 720pn is a moot point for me and is still a short amount of time in relation to a 16GB SxS card at it's highest quality settings.

Hotmagma, and that upressed SD looks like garbage compared to true HD. Don't get me started on some of those cable networks stretching 4:3 originated footage to 16:9...lol! I can't believe TV stations/engineers are still doing that at this point. Indeed 720 is good enough for most but just knowing that I can shoot at a higher quality makes me do it...so I will always be a fan/user of 1080 HD modes except when slow motion is required. At least until 1080/60p and 1080 slo-mo modes are in our cameras.

[alexdias]

Possible headaches on weeding situations will mostly be the high possibilities of flash photography, in some cases from various sources and some handheld work.
Also, I don't see much improvement using a larger heavier camera in such situations.
Easier and more established post prod workflow with DVCPRO HD.

All these things are manageable, but you should consider the benefits in both cases.

In a separate note, as I progress on my experiences with the EX-3, both shooting and evaluating, I have to say that I'm not that impressed by the footage when handheld.
If the camera is stable (tripod or else) it shines, but when moving is not that much better than even some of the HVX footage I have form older projects.
I can't point for sure to a particular source at this time but I guess is related to codec.
Again, just my 2 cents...

[Stevet]

I doubt it's the codec unless you are rapid panning high detail.. At that point, rolling shutter artifacts would be more of a problem. But I'd never keep this shot with any camera.

Please post example comparisons.

[MattDavis]

Possible headaches on weeding situations will mostly be the high possibilities of flash photography

Maybe worth repeating this:

http://www.mdma.tv/ex1/flashes.html

Due to the codec (trying to keep the quality up here), takes a little time to download and get going. Not saying this is pro or con, just a demo of flashes in EX1 footage.

Warning - may contain strobe/flashes.

[alexdias]

I'm away from my editing suite for a couple of weeks but I'll post asap.

[Noel Evans]

I skipped it because your post was long and I had to snip it somewhere to direct attention to what I was replying to (CMOS partial flash frame issues). Just like you snipped the strobe testing link, et al. out of mine...it was done to save readers from reading too much info. I didn't intentionally take out that part to misquote you, sorry about that if it appeared that way.


Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

I will reiterate. I havent used the 170 so what I am discussing assumes the camera lives up to the spec sheet, and am not pro 170 in anyway. All i did was look through the functions list, what OP might be shooting and compared that to EX1.

[Noel Evans]

Maybe worth repeating this:

http://www.mdma.tv/ex1/flashes.html

Due to the codec (trying to keep the quality up here), takes a little time to download and get going. Not saying this is pro or con, just a demo of flashes in EX1 footage.

Warning - may contain strobe/flashes.

That certainly shows theres a way around the flash issue if you dont mind not having any shutter control.

[TheMusician]

All right everybody, thanks to Fohdeesha, I got the opportunity to to check out the EX1 and all I can say is that it delivers. The ergonomics are not fantastic, but I also didn't think they were horrible. One-handed handheld shooting might become tiresome, but two-handed is doable. The image is stunning, there are no other words. The resolution holds up to its reputation, and the low light performance does as well. I liked the cadence of the 24p, the smoothness of the 30p and 60p. I brought home some footage from the meeting and it color corrected very easily, and the image is very maleable on the camera itself.

The one and only thing that you really have to know is if rolling shutter will be a problem for you, other than that there is no problems with the image or look that you can obtain with the camera. So if you are shooting catwalks and paparazzi stuff, the EX1 is not for you. If you are shooting handheld while on a skateboard, the EX1 is not for you. But for everything else, I don't think there is a better camera for straight image quality in this price-range than the EX1. Yes, I do like the out-of-box look of the panasonics color and gamma better, but from what I have seen, there is no indication that you cannot dial in that look on the EX1 or at the very least in post.

Alas, I still haven't made up my mind. Shooting footage is not my main source of bread and butter right now, so I am still considering a "get by" camera until Scarlet is released. Depending on the reports and footage that is released this week, I am considering the HMC150. Until the day that shooting is how I feed myself, I imagine that I will shoot a lot of weddings and small events and I can do that with the less expensive option now, especially because those gigs usually deliver in SD. I'll let everyone know my final decision within the week, but for my part, I believe that the EX1 is a slammin camera. Thanks for all of the invaluable insight into the cameras and from your shooting knowledge. DVXuser is my all-time favorite forum because of all who have similar interests and goals.

[Noel Evans]

but for my part, I believe that the EX1 is a slammin camera.

Absolutely. And considering the price range and your current circumstance, I agree, I think you will find the HMC150 a good fit, especially with the abundance of good quality cheap SD cards around. Good luck with it all.

[rrrobb]

I love my ex1, delivers great images if you know how to tweak them.

But there's a few downsides, because of the way the camera's built you need an IR filter to avoid blacks turning olive/brown colored with warm lights. The paint will wear off like a cheap plastic toy, and just last weekend my microphone holder broke off. I don't mind the flashes, I think I've even seen this effect happen in movies from the 70's (probably due to other reasons). It should also be possible for users to do their firmware updates instead of having to bring in their cam.

[Stevet]

there is no indication that you cannot dial in that look on the EX1 or at the very least in post.




Thanks for the post Musician.

A lot of "the look" come from post regardless. With RED you can work with RAW footage and you rely strictly on post.

Also, the EX1 has a slick profile interface, so there's no reason you can not create your out of the box look if you choose.

[alexdias]

It's taking me some time to get used to it, but the settings on the EXs are quite deep and excellent. You can get pretty much whatever you want on camera and make it look nice right there.
I'll add the settings as a PRO factor in this camera.

[Daniel Alexander]

I love my ex1, delivers great images if you know how to tweak them.

But there's a few downsides, because of the way the camera's built you need an IR filter to avoid blacks turning olive/brown colored with warm lights. The paint will wear off like a cheap plastic toy, and just last weekend my microphone holder broke off. I don't mind the flashes, I think I've even seen this effect happen in movies from the 70's (probably due to other reasons). It should also be possible for users to do their firmware updates instead of having to bring in their cam.

Do you know of a working IR filter that corrects for this problem completly? I have heard of a few but most with drawbacks, I'm trying to find one that just fixes the problem without creating another problem in it's place

[Sumfun]

But there's a few downsides, because of the way the camera's built you need an IR filter to avoid blacks turning olive/brown colored with warm lights.

I heard the IR effect is only visible when you stop down the lens. Is this true?

[basspig]

IR contamination is most visible under tungsten stage lighting and on certain dark fabrics like velvet, velore and certain black leathers. It is not usually obvious in outdoor scenes with direct or indirect sunlight. I noticed the problem in the first violin section of a concert I shot last March with a mix of V1Us and EX1. The V1Us correctly displayed the black clothing of the violin section, however, the EX1 displayed them as a sort of dark plum color with a brownish cast. There are circumstances where this could be considered a serious flaw, and others where it is completely irrelevant.

[Sumfun]

I'm away from my editing suite for a couple of weeks but I'll post asap.

Hey Alex,

I just wanted to follow up on this to see if you can post some footage showing why you think the EX1/EX3 is not good for handheld. I do a lot of handheld, so this is of interest to me.

[dwells]

To add my two cents: It's one of the best cameras in its class that we have, and we frequently rent out the HVX200, Z1u and DVX100. The image is great, the ergonomics are good (no "left-heaviness" like the EX3), and 1/2" sensors help out in low light, etc.

David


First off, I want to make it clear that I am not trolling or looking to start any wars. I really need your input, so consider it more like a poll. I have to buy a new camera by early October and have narrowed it down to the HPX170 and the EX1. Both are unarguably outstanding cameras. I guess what I want to know is if you as EX1 owners have any regrets in your decision to get an EX1? For instance, are the ergonomics so horrible as to make your regret buying one? Have rolling shutter issues bitten you bad enough at some point to make you regret buying one? Do you wish that you had gotten an HPX170? Have the IR issues made you regret buying it? OR, are you simply glad you did buy it and would do it again? Thanks for any input.

[Happy Hopping]

, Canon has had a very slow turnover rate on the 5D upgrades so we will have to see. Plus, why didn't they include a 24p option????

.

In the Canon trade show, they done a demo of the movie mode. The blu ray movie is very impressive. The 5D should be out in Nov.

But I did come across a story that the 5D can only do auto focus initially, i.e., it can auto focus on a fixed object, but not a moving object. HOwever, if it is not true, please correct me.

[Happy Hopping]

Among all the comments I read btwn. the EX1 vs. HPX170 or the HVX200A (almost the same price as 170), noone talks about the warranty.

The Sony is 1 yr. warranty, the Panasonic is 5 yr. warranty. Last time I check, the warranty is the confidence from manufacturer to customers. Now I have a lot of problem w/ various Sony equipment, so 1 yr. vs. 5 yr. is big.

IF sony has the quality to back the EX1 or the EX3, they should offer 5 yr. warranty, in par w/ Panasonic

[MattDavis]

The Sony is 1 yr. warranty, the Panasonic is 5 yr ... IF sony has the quality to back the EX1 or the EX3, they should offer 5 yr. warranty, in par w/ Panasonic

Warranties differ according to location. In the UK, Sony offers a 2 yr warranty on pro kit, with free collection/delivery of kit (which they arrange at your convenience), and loan equipment if the repair lasts more than 5 working days.

[Noel Evans]

Pana 5 year warranty is global as far as I know.

[timbook2]

Very nice thread, nice reading and the footage exchange is great. :thumbup:

[Happy Hopping]

Warranties differ according to location. In the UK, Sony offers a 2 yr warranty on pro kit, with free collection/delivery of kit (which they arrange at your convenience), and loan equipment if the repair lasts more than 5 working days.

even if it is 2 yr. worldwide, it's still nowhere close to Panasonic. You know how expensive the repair would be on this unit if it's not under warranty?

And here's another thing: Do you think any1 would be using the Sony EX1 or the Panasonic 170/200 series, 6 yr. from now? So say I own a panasonic, the unit last 5 yr., using a worst case scenario, that the unit failed on the 6th yr. Big deal, we are not going to fix it. By then, this kind of unit has adv. so much, we'll just throw away the old one.

By the way, I can't name any Sony product in my household that last 5 years. And their service is by far the absolute worst

[hantanbl]

resale value is always higher with some form of warranty. To me, having warranty is important so that I can easily sell my equipment after certain time or before the warranty runs out

[basspig]

I've owned many Sony cameras over the past decade. Only the EX1 has had a failure (in first 4 hours). The others got as much as 6 years' use and then were sold. I expect to get ten years or more from my EXs, unless UHDTV suddenly becomes the hot new format, which seems unlikely, given the slow adoption of HDTV.

[Happy Hopping]

I've owned many Sony cameras over the past decade. Only the EX1 has had a failure (in first 4 hours). The others got as much as 6 years' use and then were sold. I expect to get ten years or more from my EXs, unless UHDTV suddenly becomes the hot new format, .

I don't know if I should feel better knowing your EX1 crap out in 4 hr., or panic. If an EX1 can fail that fast, knowing this unit is only 1 - 2 yr. old, what's the failure rate after that?

My sony top of the line Trinitron 20" Monitor (made in Japan) die after 4 yr., I paid $2400 for it. Then I paid $800 on repair, and a yr. after that, it dies.

My sony answering machine doesn't work, the battery sensor is wrong

MY Sony ES integrated amp. remote control drains 2 set of battery when I got it brand new, has to repair twice.

My sony VCR has failed and the most amusing thing is, they have a function build inside the VCR that can adv. at a certain frame rate, but Neither the remote nor the main unit has that function show. BUT, if you use an old Sony remote, you CAN IGNITE that function

2 of my Sony portable CD player has failed. ESP simply doesn't work eventhough it says it does

and my sony mini disc player has also failed and I even has a box of Mini disc media that failed.

I have move away from Sony as much as possible in the past years due to the above reasons.

Their laptop, also only have 1 yr. warranty vs. other competitor that c/w 3 yr. warranty.

so these 1 yr. warranty is scary, and it's their way telling us their unit won't last past 1 yr.

[henry cho]

I don't know if I should feel better knowing your EX1 crap out in 4 hr., or panic. If an EX1 can fail that fast, knowing this unit is only 1 - 2 yr. old, what's the failure rate after that?

My sony top of the line Trinitron 20" Monitor (made in Japan) die after 4 yr., I paid $2400 for it. Then I paid $800 on repair, and a yr. after that, it dies.

My sony answering machine doesn't work, the battery sensor is wrong

MY Sony ES integrated amp. remote control drains 2 set of battery when I got it brand new, has to repair twice.

My sony VCR has failed and the most amusing thing is, they have a function build inside the VCR that can adv. at a certain frame rate, but Neither the remote nor the main unit has that function show. BUT, if you use an old Sony remote, you CAN IGNITE that function

2 of my Sony portable CD player has failed. ESP simply doesn't work eventhough it says it does

and my sony mini disc player has also failed and I even has a box of Mini disc media that failed.

I have move away from Sony as much as possible in the past years due to the above reasons.

Their laptop, also only have 1 yr. warranty vs. other competitor that c/w 3 yr. warranty.

so these 1 yr. warranty is scary, and it's their way telling us their unit won't last past 1 yr.

lol. that was a funny rant. at the end, i was expecting something along the lines of "and a sony air conditioner fell from a window and killed my neighbor."

anyways, we all know GE makes the best answering machines... built like tanks. smacks up the pannys.

[Stevet]

Now there's a Sony fan for ya. LOL!

[basspig]

Everyone has unique circumstances, and, you can't judge all Sony product lines with the same yardstick--Sony consumer products may be poor indeed. I've had very good luck with their prosumer video cams--solid workhorses--but I'm unusually careful with my cams and after 6 years, they still could pass for new.
I also have a Sony GRX560 laptop. I had it repaired once at AQS Computers, for defective DIMM socket soldering at about the 4th year of ownership. Now, 2 years later, it is still working reliably. I have used it 24/7 for a lot of years and it is my portable DAW that I use with the MotU 896 at symphony surround sound concert shoots.
My first EX1 was an infant mortality failure. The other two have been fine.

As a broadcast engineer, prior to my retirement, I saw a change over from Fidelipac cart machines to Sony minidisc players and indeed, in heavy duty radio studio use, they last about 6 months max. Sony MD players are chintzy, I'll give you that.

Now I have a Sony BDP-S301 Blu-ray player and it's been very good so far.

Bottom line is, some of it is statistal probability that SOME units will be defective, but most, if cared for properly, should last a long time. And that's from a guy who gets 300K miles out of most of his vehicles before sending them off to the junkyard. I'll drive the same truck for 20 years, or until it is too rusty to pass safety inspection. I believe the EX1 will outlast me and will be handed down to my daughter after I'm gone.

[Stevet]

Actually, I'll be trading my EX1 in for when they release the new versions with 4:2:2 50mbps.
;)
But, only if they improve their CMOS technology to minimize CMOS artifacts.
The reason I say this is that even though 50mbps 4:2:2 is enticing, I doubt there would
be a dramatic difference in normal inspection of the footage.

Face it, the EX1 is one HECK of camera. It produces jaw-dropping footage.

Some people have reservation (which I respect their decision) regarding the CMOS rolling shutter artifacts.

Having said that, I would not give up this camera for anything in the sub $10K price mark right now.
Even the RED has these same artifacts, and that surely has not stopped many from buying.

I am hoping that advances will improve to minimize these CMOS artifacts on future cameras.

Also, if the HPX170 offered full 1920x1080 raster CCD sensors and had a new codec (better than DVCPRO HD - which is quite old), I'd be all over that camera right now.
The only other issue is the demanding datarate per P2 cards. At DVCPRO HD captures, the "run time" per $$$ cost is WAY to much.

With the soon to be released 32GB SanDisk Ultra II 15MB/s costing only $150 USD, this offers over 100 minutes of uninterrupted recording.
With just two of these cards ($300 USD), it's over 200 minutes of non-stop HQ mode capture.
The two 32GB P2 cards that would only offer half the time in DVCPRO HD footage would cost $3000 USD.

[J.R. Hudson]

I don't know if I should feel better knowing your EX1 crap out in 4 hr., or panic. If an EX1 can fail that fast, knowing this unit is only 1 - 2 yr. old, what's the failure rate after that?

My sony top of the line Trinitron 20" Monitor (made in Japan) die after 4 yr., I paid $2400 for it. Then I paid $800 on repair, and a yr. after that, it dies.

My sony answering machine doesn't work, the battery sensor is wrong

MY Sony ES integrated amp. remote control drains 2 set of battery when I got it brand new, has to repair twice.

My sony VCR has failed and the most amusing thing is, they have a function build inside the VCR that can adv. at a certain frame rate, but Neither the remote nor the main unit has that function show. BUT, if you use an old Sony remote, you CAN IGNITE that function

2 of my Sony portable CD player has failed. ESP simply doesn't work eventhough it says it does

and my sony mini disc player has also failed and I even has a box of Mini disc media that failed.

I have move away from Sony as much as possible in the past years due to the above reasons.

Their laptop, also only have 1 yr. warranty vs. other competitor that c/w 3 yr. warranty.

so these 1 yr. warranty is scary, and it's their way telling us their unit won't last past 1 yr.


Might want to stop buying Sony. :huh:

[Carl Marxx]

:banned: Failure reguarding the EX-x cameras: You must remember that failure is highest when brand new and when very old. The greatest failure is when you buy it new, within the first 5hrs. of use. They call this return item "ID" initial deffective. After that, failure is low untill you have several years on it. The other reason most likely for failure is with mechanical problems (tape drive mechanism,) hey, wait a minuite, the EX-1 and 3 does't have any tape drive! But the real killer is the internal capacitors drying out. Then this happens, it's like haveing a baby, it changes everything. Electronic curcuits values change in the camera due to this, thus failure. The federal government several years ago desided the liguid in the capacitors on electronic equipment poluted the enviornment and should be banned (the green liberal left in congress.) So, manufacturers started using fish-oil instead. after three years failures occured. (Panasonic has an upgrade kit to replace all the caps in there DVPro decks) They have changed the dialectric in the new capacitors, but it is still unkown if it will last as long and the old original juice. So, don't be suprised if your camaras start having problems in 6 or 7 years. Thank you congress! -- Carl

[dwells]

Warranty is a good investment for such an expensive piece of equipment. I have a colleague with an XLH1 who has shelled out a pretty penny recently to fix some items. And it's having more problems now. I'm guessing he'll be out over $1,000 total.

As for Sony, I've seen many of their products last for years, especially the professional cameras, like the VX1000/2000/2100, PD150/170 and the FX1/Z1. Just remember, the native sensor size of the EX1 is true Full HD, 1920 x 1080. That is a frame size that's been around in production for years, and will probably be a standard for years to come. Ultra HD is also here to stay, but 1920 x 1080 is a big standard in the industry.

David

[dwells]

One more point about the EX1 and 3: they overheat somewhat easily, so keep them out of the sun, and be careful about covering them up. No tape transport system is great, but overheating
is a concern.

David

[Happy Hopping]

Ultra HD is also here to stay, but 1920 x 1080 is a big standard in the industry.

David

To hijack this topic for a moment, speaking of ultra HD, why is RED only support Mac? Mac takes up 4% of world micro computer market. I'm not going to learn a Mac OS, buy a Mac just to use Final Cut Pro

[Happy Hopping]

One more point about the EX1 and 3: they overheat somewhat easily, so keep them out of the sun, and be careful about covering them up. No tape transport system is great, but overheating
is a concern.

David

actually, that's why we have something called warranty, which is 5 yr. w/ Panasonic. And 5 yr. from now, I seriously doubt we'll be using 1920x1080. My 30" computer LCD is 2560x1600, would you watch your Full HD movie on 1920x1080 at say 65"?

In a few yr., Full HD 19x10 will be gone and we can sell a panasonic still under warranty.

[BradCube]

To hijack this topic for a moment, speaking of ultra HD, why is RED only support Mac? Mac takes up 4% of world micro computer market. I'm not going to learn a Mac OS, buy a Mac just to use Final Cut Pro

I'm confused. As far as I am aware, RED supports both Mac and PC platforms. Previously the only editor which natively supported the format was Final Cut Pro but Premiere Pro CS4 has announced support for RED as well now. You can read more on Adobes website and here: http://www.adobe.com/products/premiere/pdfs/red_adobe_cs4_beta.pdf

Before this there were 3rd party solutions that acted as a go between to allow you to edit on other platforms - cineform for example: http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/Red-Prospect4K.htm

This should be good news for you I guess. You don't have to learn how to use a Mac or Final Cut Pro (although it certainly wouldn't hurt to learn anyway :P)

[PerroneFord]

To hijack this topic for a moment, speaking of ultra HD, why is RED only support Mac? Mac takes up 4% of world micro computer market. I'm not going to learn a Mac OS, buy a Mac just to use Final Cut Pro


HUH?

I'm running RedCine just fine on my XP64 laptop. Export 2K to MOV and I'm rolling in Vegas or whatever. Works great.

[Stevet]

I was gonna say we had the RED ONE running RedCine on my Windows XP. They've offered Windows support for a while now.

[Daniel Alexander]

I recently stated i was a bit dissapointed with my EX1 in regards to 'the film look' in comparison with the hvx, however after further experimenting I can now report that it really is possible to tweak this camera to mimic a wide range of looks going way beyond what the image looks like on it's out the box setting. I found two videos that demonstrate this perfectly:

http://www.vimeo.com/1198204

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZhnvfNDEyc

[Stevet]

I recently stated i was a bit dissapointed with my EX1 in regards to 'the film look' in comparison with the hvx, however after further experimenting I can now report that it really is possible to tweak this camera to mimic a wide range of looks going way beyond what the image looks like on it's out the box setting. I found two videos that demonstrate this perfectly:

http://www.vimeo.com/1198204



Yes, download the large 500MB version. It looks great.

[falves1]

These two cameras have the same price, so why would you get one over the other, for ENG and short political videos, like "Rock the Vote" or "Obama lloves you"

[Daniel Alexander]

I personally love both cameras, but based on the 'same price' scenario I would get the EX1 due to cheaper memory and an lcd that i can use for critical focus. When bringing these two factors into the eqausion the price difference really becomes aparent

[Happy Hopping]

HUH?

I'm running RedCine just fine on my XP64 laptop. Export 2K to MOV and I'm rolling in Vegas or whatever. Works great.

I haven't follow up on RED for awhile. What is the max. resolution you can get out of RED ONE at: I

3K (up to 60 fps)

and how long does it take to convert their default file format to MP4 or WMV for a 50 GB file?

And let me know how much memory your PC is using?

[basspig]

One thing to consider about Red, Panavision Genesis, SI-2K, Dalsa, etc., is that they are Bayer-pattern single imager cameras. That means the light transmission efficiency of a Bayer filtered imager is only about 50%, as opposed to 90% for a 3-imager camera. Another thing to consider is that due to the Bayer pattern, the color sampling off the imager, by definition, is 4:2:0. And, more importantly, the dilemma of where to set the antialias filter cutoff for the imager, since it's ONE imager and you have the effective 2k horizontal in the green, but only 1k horizontal in the red and blue, the antialias filter will probably be dictated by the blue sampling, so overall, the fantastic 4k imager is effectively resolving 1080 lines per picture height, to keep Mr. Nyquist happy. So the real advantage is the super 35 mm imager size, which makes up some of the sensitivity by virtue of larger photosites, plus the "advantage" of shallow depth of field, relative to smaller 2/3" and 1/2" imager cameras.
These cinema cameras are not the incredible resolution monsters that their specs might mislead one to believe. Resolution is not the reason to buy one. Other reasons, pertaining to optical properties are more valid.

[PerroneFord]

I haven't follow up on RED for awhile. What is the max. resolution you can get out of RED ONE at: I

3K (up to 60 fps)

and how long does it take to convert their default file format to MP4 or WMV for a 50 GB file?

And let me know how much memory your PC is using?

I do not own a RED. And there is absolutely NO WAY, I am going to try to download a 50GB .R3D file for a test. If you want to procure such a file, hop on reduser and request a BluRay containing one.

My laptop came with 2 or 3 GB or RAM, I can't remember. I had to make some sacrifices knowing I could beef up the RAM later quite easily. So my conversions are rather slow. No big deal to me.

[Cinemano]

Get the EX1 trust me!! I got a RED and i did side by side comparisons of my ex1 footage frame export next to a RED 4K tiff short with Nikon lens and i actually find the Ex1 sharper in definition.. :D especially when comparing the details of the hair on people's heads .. amazing sharpness. I guess my RED will kick ass more when i get RED lenses :(

[cheezweezl]

Get the EX1 trust me!! I got a RED and i did side by side comparisons of my ex1 footage frame export next to a RED 4K tiff short with Nikon lens and i actually find the Ex1 sharper in definition.. :D especially when comparing the details of the hair on people's heads .. amazing sharpness. I guess my RED will kick ass more when i get RED lenses :(

this is a joke right? ex1 over red? that is silly.

[dantewaters]

Wow well said... seems gone are the days of the prosumer cams



One thing to consider about Red, Panavision Genesis, SI-2K, Dalsa, etc., is that they are Bayer-pattern single imager cameras. That means the light transmission efficiency of a Bayer filtered imager is only about 50%, as opposed to 90% for a 3-imager camera. Another thing to consider is that due to the Bayer pattern, the color sampling off the imager, by definition, is 4:2:0. And, more importantly, the dilemma of where to set the antialias filter cutoff for the imager, since it's ONE imager and you have the effective 2k horizontal in the green, but only 1k horizontal in the red and blue, the antialias filter will probably be dictated by the blue sampling, so overall, the fantastic 4k imager is effectively resolving 1080 lines per picture height, to keep Mr. Nyquist happy. So the real advantage is the super 35 mm imager size, which makes up some of the sensitivity by virtue of larger photosites, plus the "advantage" of shallow depth of field, relative to smaller 2/3" and 1/2" imager cameras.
These cinema cameras are not the incredible resolution monsters that their specs might mislead one to believe. Resolution is not the reason to buy one. Other reasons, pertaining to optical properties are more valid.

[Ming]

My main gripe with the EX1 is not having one. :)

[Happy Hopping]

One thing to consider about Red, Panavision Genesis, SI-2K, Dalsa, etc.,
These cinema cameras are not the incredible resolution monsters that their specs might mislead one to believe. Resolution is not the reason to buy one. Other reasons, pertaining to optical properties are more valid.

Since I don't own the 170/200 from Panasonic, is the 170/200 also a Bayer-pattern single imager camera?

As to what you said from the above, what about the frame rate? I'm concern about the frame rate. The lower res. 720p is at 60 frames / sec. The sony is only 30 frames/sec. at 19x10. So to me, RED 1 advantage would be the 60 frames/sec or higher if RED 1 can do 19x10 at 60 frames/s

[kubalsky]

My only EX1 regret is that I don't have enough time to use it.

I finally had some free time the other day, took my EX1, letus and Nikon lenses and went exploring an old abandoned house I live near, great old 4 story home covered in vines, only I got arrested for trespassing before I got to shoot. The police made me hold my camera in front of me for the mugshot. The first EX1 in a mugshot I do believe.

My choice of location regrets, yes.
Ex1 purchase regrets, no.

[dwells]

I'd like to see some video from the EX1 and RED ONE comparison.

Basspig made some very good points, but these single-sensor cameras are excellent, and not just because of their resolution. The RED ONE, Genesis, and SI-2K produce a great image, as do the other units.

David

[Stevet]

I'd like to see some video from the EX1 and RED ONE comparison.



Here's Jim Arthur's RED skew sample.. The newer software is said to be 10% better.

http://dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1150200&postcount=31

[cheezweezl]

Here's Jim Arthur's RED skew sample.. The newer software is said to be 10% better.

http://dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1150200&postcount=31

that is a very old thread. they expected a 10% improvement in builds 13 and 14. the current build is 16. these old examples aren't really relevant anymore...

[cheezweezl]

Since I don't own the 170/200 from Panasonic, is the 170/200 also a Bayer-pattern single imager camera?

As to what you said from the above, what about the frame rate? I'm concern about the frame rate. The lower res. 720p is at 60 frames / sec. The sony is only 30 frames/sec. at 19x10. So to me, RED 1 advantage would be the 60 frames/sec or higher if RED 1 can do 19x10 at 60 frames/s

the 170/200 are 3 chip ccd cams.

as of now, the red one does up to 120fps at 2k which is slightly larger than 1080p.

at 4k it does up to 30fps.

[Stevet]

that is a very old thread. they expected a 10% improvement in builds 13 and 14. the current build is 16. these old examples aren't really relevant anymore...

Huh???

CMOS artifacts are directly associated with the device itself, unless RED changed the sensor in the RED ONE (which they have not yet, but will offer the new sensor for $$ in the near future), the artifacts are no better with the latest builds.
If removing all CMOS artifacts were a simple software tweak, none of these cameras would have these issues.

I've seen build 16 side by side to the EX1. Does the RED have a better image than the EX1, yes it does. But, the CMOS artifacts are not that different.

This should all change when RED releases their new sensor.

[Tim Naylor]

Go to Abel Cinetech. You can see the camera on a variety of monitors, handhold it, etc. It's a real camera house.


Stevet, I was recently at B&H in New York to check everything out and I would have to say that I was pretty disappointed by their service. They had none of the tripods on the floor that I was interested in (Cartoni Focus, Sachtler FSB-6, Vinten Vision 3, Gitzo 1380, Miller DS20) When I asked to pick up the EX1 to see how it felt handheld and how I delt with the ergonomics, they told me that it was locked down and they had no way to release it. 90% of the cameras were all in a bin using the same Sony monitors, but the EX1 was set alone hooked up to a cheap monitor of a different brand that people had obviously adjusted as well as dialing in absurd picture profiles. So it was very difficult to compare the look of the EX1 to the HVX200a. From what I saw that day, even the XH-A1 (which is a fine camera) looked a ton better than the EX1. And to cap it off, the store employees were not supportive of the camera at all saying that they would prefer almost any other camera to the EX1.

I would love to get a second look to convince myself that the EX1 would work for me, but I live in Indianapolis and there is nobody here who sells it on a showroom floor. Anybody know of anyplace close to Indianapolis? Any EX1 owners in Indianapolis?

[Duke M.]

this is a joke right? ex1 over red? that is silly.

Here is an article on real world tests and comparisons of the EX1, Red One and F23.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/three_three_letter_cameras_ex1_f23_red/

Go to page 3 for the charts. Read the captions because some were shot at half size to see if it really went above 1000 line pairs and most charts only go that high.

The Red One tested out at ~2.5k resolution. Thats about 25-30% higher resolution than the EX1. Its noticable, but not that noticable. Its up to you to decide if the extra hoops are worth it.

A story was never told by its level of resolvable details. :)

The EX1 did very, very well. A debayer filter does cut a lot of resolution but there are a lot of variables and the EX1 has no debayer filter.

[Barry_Green]

The Red One tested out at ~2.5k resolution. Thats about 25-30% higher resolution than the EX1.
That's an old test; Adam re-tested and verified the Red One at 3.2k res.

[Duke M.]

That's an old test; Adam re-tested and verified the Red One at 3.2k res.

That was also under the old color science too so an update would be good. Do you have a link to it?

I think Adam's point though was that you don't get 4k resolution out of the Red. No doubt the Red still has plenty more resolution than the EX1.

For me the important part was that the EX1 tested right up there at the Nyquest limit for a 1.9k camera. It was also interesting in the comments that the apparent resolution above the Nyquest limit for the EX1 and F23 was simply moire (shades of 7D behavior at a higher level.)

I just watched Public Enemies last night and the EX1 footage cut in seamlessly.

[Barry_Green]

I think Adam's point though was that you don't get 4k resolution out of the Red.
Yes, that's a long-established fact, even Red themselves don't claim 4K of resolution. They say it's 3.2k. That's part of the reason why the Red Epic was introduced with a 5K mode, so that the de-bayered final product would be 4k.

[Duke M.]

Do you have that link to the subsequent test? Always hoping to expand my knowledge. I looked on that site and couldn't find it.

[Barry_Green]

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/more_red_res_testing_the_mysteryium_resolved/