Vincent Laforet Canon D5 MKII Film

[ESTEBEVERDE]

The short film Vincent Laforet shot with his preproduction Canon D5 MKII:


Vincent Laforet Canon D5 MKII Film Page (http://www.usa.canon.com/dlc/controller?act=GetArticleAct&articleID=2086)



"This video was shot with a pre-production Canon EOS 5D Mark II digital SLR. The files used to create this video were not manipulated in any way, only re-compressed for ¼ resolution display on our website. To view Vincent Laforet’s comments and behind-the-scenes video on the making of REVERIE, please visit his blog: blog.vincentlaforet.com

EF Lenses used in the making of REVERIE:
FD 7.5mm f/5.6 (converted to EF mount)
EF 16-35mm f/2.8L II USM
EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM
EF 50mm f/1.2L USM
EF 85mm f/1.2L II USM
EF 135mm f/2L USM
EF 200mm f/1.8L USM
EF 400mm f/2.8L IS USM
EF 500mm f/4L IS USM
TS-E 24mm f/3.5L
TS-E 45mm f/2.8

Video ©2008 Laforet Visuals Inc.
Used with permission"


.

[dave12781]

I'm so past this. Screw Canon I can't wait for the NEW Red Scarlet. :-)

[Isaac_Brody]

I'm so past this. Screw Canon I can't wait for the NEW Red Scarlet. :-)

You'll be waiting till May or June at the earliest. First footage and working prototypes at NAB in April, and shipping at an undetermined time afterwards.

[John Caballero]

You'll be waiting till May or June at the earliest. First footage and working prototypes at NAB in April, and shipping at an undetermined time afterwards.

And the movie making stardom dreams keep getting farther and farther.

[walnutcrunch]

You know, the only thing strange about this that Canon seems to have a remarkably agile marketing group.
All this silence, the planning put in the whole roll-out of the camera, and a photographer, just happens to convince the New York office that he should have a camera for a weekend and put up video shots from it on his blog just like Philip Bloom and the EX1.

I can believe that this all happened or I can also believe that Canon saw how well the Bloom blog worked for the EX1 (one of their video competitors) and decided to do the same thing with the release of the 5d mark 2.

It really doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things, but the mind boggles at the hoops that Laforet would have had to jump through to some how get all those screenshots cleared for his blog that quickly.

One way or the other it doesn't matter really, but it does make you go hmmm.

[Isaac_Brody]

Well this is why you buy other cameras in the meantime and keep working your craft, instead of waiting for the dream camera. I know it'll come out, but for my own sanity it helps to shoot with what I got until something better is in my hands. Yeah the Canon's 30P and the Nikon's get wicked jello, but work around those limitations.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

You know, the only thing strange about this that Canon seems to have a remarkably agile marketing group.
All this silence, the planning put in the whole roll-out of the camera, and a photographer, just happens to convince the New York office that he should have a camera for a weekend and put up video shots from it on his blog just like Philip Bloom and the EX1.

I can believe that this all happened or I can also believe that Canon saw how well the Bloom blog worked for the EX1 (one of their video competitors) and decided to do the same thing with the release of the 5d mark 2.

It really doesn't matter that much in the scheme of things, but the mind boggles at the hoops that Laforet would have had to jump through to some how get all those screenshots cleared for his blog that quickly.

One way or the other it doesn't matter really, but it does make you go hmmm.

I don't know.

He is a pretty heavy hitter.

He is the counterpart or the mirror image if you will of the D90 guy.


I don't think he would put his reputation on the line for the launch of a 5D MKII.

I don't think Canon would either.


As far as his images.

He indeed has mastered a bit of his art.

According to him, he is just looking at going into moving images now.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Well this is why you buy other cameras in the meantime and keep working your craft, instead of waiting for the dream camera. I know it'll come out, but for my own sanity it helps to shoot with what I got until something better is in my hands. Yeah the Canon's 30P and the Nikon's get wicked jello, but work around those limitations.


It's Awesome!


When I read your post I hear Samuel L. Jackson's voice! :beer:

[Kholi]

Well, I'm pissed.

=T I can't believe this camera doesn't have 24p. This SOB would make some incredible 720p man.

[f64manray]

This video was amazing. It's obvious that it has the tech specs for filmmakers to tell great stories. Could Scarlett be better than this? Under what microscope? And how many hairs would you have to split to make your point. Talent will do great things with this camera.

[Kholi]

Scarlet could be better just based on 24p Alone. Outside of that, Raw image format, manual controls, etc etc.

However... how long til scarlet comes out? =T

Just, wow. How depressing.

[Kegan]

That was absolutely stunning. Holy crap, I loved that footage.

-Kegan

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I liked the footage a great deal.

I did not like the wobbly helicopter shots and I did not like the 30p and more importantly the greater-than-180-degree shutter.


I still like it and love it but readily admit this iteration looks more like soap opera than film.


Still, I give my man Vincent Laforet and A++

[Kholi]

I liked the footage a great deal.

I did not like the wobbly helicopter shots and I did not like the 30p and more importantly the greater-than-180-degree shutter.


I still like it and love it but readily admit this iteration looks more like soap opera than film.


Still, I give my man Vincent Laforet and A++

I agree. Aside from that, though, the image shows a great deal of promise for 720p content. =T Which is generally enough to begin with.

It produced a much better image than I thought it would have.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Hopefully Canon pulls its head out of it's arse and upgrades it to have the "proper" frame rates and controls.

[Emanuel]

It's Awesome!


When I read your post I hear Samuel L. Jackson's voice! :beer::) Good avatar change Isaac! :beer:

[John Caballero]

That goes to show how a talented photographer manages image making. And nothing done to the footage just recompressed 1/4 for web space. It is very nice indeed. Just needed: 24P for those of you that must have it and full manual control of course. We are no doubt entering a new stage in movie making. Witnessing an incredible evolution. And it can only get better. I am so glad to be a photographer who also loves movie making.

[utako.o]

all i could think of while watching REVERIE is that when i become dicator, i execute all the whiners who havn't touched the camera and spit on it because it's 30fps...
Vince could have shot REVERIE with a holga and it would still be captivating.

people fail to understand, you need to spend at least 5 times the camera's cost on lighting, then talent, sound.. if the story is good, nobody cares about the technical details.

[booggerg2]

This 30p is very Michael Mann's Miami Vice / Collateral -ish. Ain't nothing wrong with those films...

[Chris_TC]

I absolutely hated the way motion looked in this. It literally screamed "DV" throughout.
360 degree shutter + 30p = evil

Apart from this, it seems pretty stunning what this camera can do. I really hope Canon will give us 24p or at least 25p.

[John Caballero]

all i could think of while watching REVERIE is that when i become dicator, i execute all the whiners who havn't touched the camera and spit on it because it's 30fps...
Vince could have shot REVERIE with a holga and it would still be captivating.

people fail to understand, you need to spend at least 5 times the camera's cost on lighting, then talent, sound.. if the story is good, nobody cares about the technical details.


You got it!


I absolutely hated the way motion looked in this. It literally screamed "DV" throughout.
360 degree shutter + 30p = evil

LOL! Sure.

[Chris_TC]

This 30p is very Michael Mann's Miami Vice / Collateral -ish. Ain't nothing wrong with those films...
The documentary style only worked for Mann because of the high realism of those movies.
And they didn't look as smooth as Reverie. They were smeary but 24p vs. 30p apparently does make a visible difference of its own.

[John Caballero]

The documentary style only worked for Mann because of the high realism of those movies.


????

[Chris_TC]

????
I should have added "only worked FOR ME" because you have made it clear by now that you wouldn't mind The Lord of the Rings look like Collateral.

[John Caballero]

Well the truth is I really don't care because I am not buying this Canon. I bought the D90 and concluded that is great for my photography work and cool as an experimental movie camera. I will wait 'till next year and see what Scarlet is going to offer and what other manufacturers come out with. In the meantime I will keep using my HVX 200.

[logic108]

1. The colors were the best I've seen for low light footage. Really game changing.
2. This did not look like a soap opera!
3. This side of the pond in europe will probably not see the Scarlett until at least 2010 if ever - they may change the specs again and by the way how many Red Ones are they producing? Are they able to satisfy demand?
4. 30P suits me fine but it's there in the 5D because it's seen as a reportage feature.
5. The new 5D is a 21MP full-frame slr - superb.

I always said I was going to get a D90 if Canon didn't put video into the new 5D. It seems obvious to me that the 30P from the Canon is much better in IQ than 24P from the Nikon. I think 30P is not without artistic merit. I can imagine someone like Mike Figgis getting excited by this. And very very obviously it's all in the story.

[Kholi]

Then go shoot with a VHS cam.

[logic108]

Kholi you are wrong about this. The reason you are wrong is that the color fidelity on the 5D is so stunningly good that it changes the whole feel of the movie. The lush blues and purples in one scene where the main character is lying on the sofa are absolutely superb and do not give of the feel of a VHS cam at all. Also look at the shot of the guy in the helicopter. The reflection of the nighttime cityscape in his glasses made the film look 'hyperreal' rather than boring 30P VHS style.
So there is more to the feel of a movie than frame-rates - color fidelity is one very key aspect. The deeper and more lush the colors and textures then the more 'movie-like' it feels.

[booggerg2]

Other 5D2 testers have said by putting the 5D2 30P footage into a 24P timeline, the footage look a little bit more filmic.

Which makes me wonder, how is the 30P achieve on the old EZ30U camcorders? Those looked pretty good to me. The 5D2 footage is much much more smoother than the EZ30U 30P footage. Can we in anyway process the 5D2 footage to resemble the Panasonic EZ30U footage?

[Kholi]

Kholi you are wrong about this. The reason you are wrong is that the color fidelity on the 5D is so stunningly good that it changes the whole feel of the movie. The lush blues and purples in one scene where the main character is lying on the sofa are absolutely superb and do not give of the feel of a VHS cam at all. Also look at the shot of the guy in the helicopter. The reflection of the nighttime cityscape in his glasses made the film look 'hyperreal' rather than boring 30P VHS style.
So there is more to the feel of a movie than frame-rates - color fidelity is one very key aspect. The deeper and more lush the colors and textures then the more 'movie-like' it feels.

It doesn't feel like a movie at all. Show anyone in your family if it looks like a movie or just really nice looking video. Everything else is decent, Esteb pointed out the same things I saw.

There's just no way around it, for most of us here 24p is a necessity more-so now with this camera than before, thanks to that footage.

[utako.o]

here is an interesting thread (dissecting the video) started by a guy equally talented in the photo world as Vince

http://www.modelmayhem.com/po.php?thread_id=349231

[logic108]

No doubt there will be 24P added to a Canon DSLR at some point in the future just as 1080P will be added to Nikon's line-up. Until that time Shake is your friend when it comes to changing frame-rates. But again it's the depth and fidelity of colors that's important and the lack of which has always been a source of frustration to me in the past.

[f64manray]

behind the scenes video is up:

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/



these are very exciting times - to be someone who focuses on “creating” as opposed to the “process” and “technique” of making your vision match the “reality” of the tools you have at your disposal.

Vincent, you are so right!

[John Caballero]

The truth is that unless somebody in most of the families of the world is a professional movie maker most people won't even notice the difference between 24p and 30p even if you tried to explain it to them. Give it a try and see what happens. That is a fact, most of the viewing public have no idea and many won't care. Tell the millions and millions of people that watch soap operas to stop doing it because they are not shot 24p and they would just laugh at you.

[j]

That's amazing, an entire short film without a pan...
What a way to cover a flaw.


Aside from that, it does look good though.

[booggerg2]

That's amazing, an entire short film without a pan...
What a way to cover a flaw.


Aside from that, it does look good though.

Goes to show how you can shot a movie without a pan, in otherwords, pans are overrated.

[Kholi]

... wow. pans are overrated? What will they say next...

[f64manray]

No doubt there will be 24P added to a Canon DSLR at some point in the future just as 1080P will be added to Nikon's line-up. Until that time Shake is your friend when it comes to changing frame-rates. But again it's the depth and fidelity of colors that's important and the lack of which has always been a source of frustration to me in the past.

No kidding. What you've mentioned is what has kept me away from video for so long. It's the lighting and color saturation and contrast that draw me into an image and it's finally here. The D5 MKII will get me by for quite awhile (video wise) while it also serves as my main still camera professionally. I'm buying this, and then I'll just watch from the sidelines at the D-Film wars. The next two years are going to be incredible in what it will yield in digital cinema equipment.

The world is different after today. I guarrandamntee that what I produce from this camera won't be mistaken for a "Soap Opera". I'm all for 24p but it's just a sliver of the equation after my lowlight, depth of field, color, saturation, and contrast needs have been met. ....and of course CONTENT!

[booggerg2]

... wow. pans are overrated? What will they say next...

I'll say filmmakers are overrated.. most of them anyways..

[The Sarlacc]

The truth is that unless somebody in most of the families of the world is a professional movie maker most people won't even notice the difference between 24p and 30p even if you tried to explain it to them. Give it a try and see what happens. That is a fact, most of the viewing public have no idea and many won't care. Tell the millions and millions of people that watch soap operas to stop doing it because they are not shot 24p and they would just laugh at you.

Yes...and no...

I finally watched this little short film tonight and while its sharp and HD, etc etc etc...its video..the 30fps just gives it that ultra "I am the best looking video I can be but I am still video."

I showed it to others who are still photo hobbyists and not video/film people by any stretch. Even they were able to notice "something" was off, movement didn't look natural. They may not have known that it was the framerate until I explained it to them, but they knew.

People don't watch soaps because of how they look (terrible) soaps are still shot on old school standard def pedestal cameras running back to a video engineer station that looks like it was forgotten in time.

Hell, they even run under a different camera union. I did special effects for one and the company forced them to go HD for it...(30p) and all the cameramen bitched and moaned about change :D

The most hilarity ensued with the old vid tech who was clueless, but stubborn.

Anyway...soaps are a league of their own (thank god) and are just good reference for how NOT to make your projects look.

[The Sarlacc]

I'll say filmmakers are overrated.. most of them anyways..

hehe..won't disagree with this...but pans?

Really, lets all just go back to making movies in an Edison's Black Maria...

[The Sarlacc]

Kholi you are wrong about this. The reason you are wrong is that the color fidelity on the 5D is so stunningly good that it changes the whole feel of the movie. The lush blues and purples in one scene where the main character is lying on the sofa are absolutely superb and do not give of the feel of a VHS cam at all. Also look at the shot of the guy in the helicopter. The reflection of the nighttime cityscape in his glasses made the film look 'hyperreal' rather than boring 30P VHS style.
So there is more to the feel of a movie than frame-rates

What you are talking about is color saturation. And this video has great deep vivid color saturation...but it sure as hell does look and feel like video...VHS if thats the term you are using.

Kholi is correct.

[John Caballero]

BTW I hate soap operas too. Especially the spanish ones. They drive me crazy. They are in a league of their own.

[Elton]

Impressive. I can tell that he shot with an open shutter sometimes, which contributed to the *bad* Collateral look, (lots of Collateral had the 1/24 shutter look, which is very video too) but that's a very commendable effort for such a short time with the camera!

I still think there's another shoe to drop from Canon in the coming months.

[The Sarlacc]

This 30p is very Michael Mann's Miami Vice / Collateral -ish. Ain't nothing wrong with those films...

Aside from the fact Miami Vice is just a shi* movie.

Collateral:

The smeary nighttime cab footage was made to look that way one purpose. But, that was only SOME of the HD shot on that movie, and those scenes were with the F900. There are also a lot of scenes shot on the Viper...and I bet you can't tell me which ones.

And then, there are scenes where he shot F900, Viper, and Film all at the same time, intermixed in the same scene.

[f64manray]

What you are talking about is color saturation. And this video has great deep vivid color saturation...but it sure as hell does look and feel like video...VHS if thats the term you are using.

Kholi is correct.

I sentence you to watch the Vincent Laforet movie 10 more times. :-)

VHS must not even be uttered with any reference to the 5D MKII. I mean it.

[Kholi]

Nobody is saying that it doesn't look good. People keep spitting out the horrid phrase "it's about the story!" and if it were, then you would be shootin' on whatever is out NOW.

That's why I said VHS.

And, as well, no one is denying the very awesome image coming from the 5D. I won't argue it anymore, I'm with the camp that says Canon needs to wise-up and update firmware before the camera even comes out.

[The Sarlacc]

I sentence you to watch the Vincent Laforet movie 10 more times. :-)

VHS must not even be uttered with any reference to the 5D MKII. I mean it.

I said VHS to refernce the term/phrase he was using to describe...

I pretty much just say it looks like the epitome of all video.

[The Sarlacc]

Nobody is saying that it doesn't look good. People keep spitting out the horrid phrase "it's about the story!" and if it were, then you would be shootin' on whatever is out NOW.

That's why I said VHS.

And, as well, no one is denying the very awesome image coming from the 5D. I won't argue it anymore, I'm with the camp that says Canon needs to wise-up and update firmware before the camera even comes out.


And I'm in the camp thats says I'm happy Canon didn't go 24p...because I don't think a still camera should be used to shoot short films and movies...but since all YOU people are determined...they might as well...or I'm liable to rip my eyes looking at the future VIDEO thats going to pop up...

[John Caballero]

These guys (Canon) are working in such mysterious ways. Why the heck don't they give a very simple choice to so many needy guys: 24P? Would it be that difficult to cut back 6 FPS and make so many people smile. Although they might next complain about the compression. But thats a whole other topic altogether.

BTW It would be very difficult to shoot VHS. I think they stopped making those a while back.

[Emanuel]

Probably, an european version will offer 25p. Probably.

[The Sarlacc]

These guys (Canon) are working in such mysterious ways. Why the heck don't they give a very simple choice to so many needy guys: 24P? Would it be that difficult to cut back 6 FPS and make so many people smile. Although they might next complain about the compression. But thats a whole other topic altogether.

BTW It would be very difficult to shoot VHS. I think they stopped making those a while back.

Dude you can find some great deals on VHS...especially VHS-C...who wouldnt want to shoot a feature on that? Amazing format really...

Canon's thoughts on 30p...."We created the whole prosumer market with our XL1 and then everyone trumped us and we had failure after failure following that...we don't want to f**k ourselves, too, creating a product that renders years and $$$ of R&D from another part of our company."

[Elton]

...beats the hell out of a bird on a branch or a camera on the side of a highway!

[John Caballero]

Dude you can find some great deals on VHS...especially VHS-C...who wouldnt want to shoot a feature on that? Amazing format really...

LOL. But thats so last century!

[f64manray]

Nobody is saying that it doesn't look good. People keep spitting out the horrid phrase "it's about the story!" and if it were, then you would be shootin' on whatever is out NOW.

That's why I said VHS.

And, as well, no one is denying the very awesome image coming from the 5D. I won't argue it anymore, I'm with the camp that says Canon needs to wise-up and update firmware before the camera even comes out.

I won't argue with you Kholi because I respect your experience, knowledge, etc. and I always subscribe to the wisdom: If you don't know anything, shut up and listen from those that do. And I've learned alot from you.

But I'll tell why I don't shoot on the crap gear that's out now. Because to my still photographic eye with twenty years of experience shooting and in the darkroom printing, everything in video didn't look tolerable (even remotely so). The DVX was barely acceptable to me visually and I was on my way to buy it when all hell broke loose. Visually I am drawn into an image by lighting, contrast, color saturation, and even grain. And then, when I'm drawn into the image the movie maker has an opportunity to tell me a story (granted, a very short opportunity) but they do have a five minute latitude to make their pitch to gain my interest with some powerful motherf*&(**in content. If the content is there, I won't even notice 30p. Yes, I would like by some miracle for them to make a change to 24p, but it's just one factor of many and at the bottom of the list. because regular boring video at 24p is, well, still pretty boring no matter how it moves. The 5D is alive, vibrant, and ready to suck you into some good content.

[logic108]

Can't wait to use this with my 50L f/1.2 and 135 f/2. The thing is the color fidelity. It's like Andromeda on steroids.
Obviously it's a still camera first, but the color reproduction and low light performance seems to be just so good that I don't care - I just want this camera.
Agreed with f64manray.

[The Sarlacc]

LOL. But thats so last century!

May I offer you Digi Beta instead? D-VHS? Betacam IMX?

[f64manray]

Can't wait to use this with my 50L f/1.2 and 135 f/2. The thing is the color fidelity. It's like Andromeda on steroids.
Obviously it's a still camera first, but the color reproduction and low light performance seems to be just so good that I don't care - I just want this camera.
Agreed with f64manray.

yep, Canon just sold me a bunch of "L" glass with the introduction of the MKII. Those clever little bastards.

[John Caballero]

May I offer you Digi Beta instead? D-VHS? Betacam IMX?

Thank you, but no thank you sir. I am looking at a Super 8 camera I might get, it gives you that "filmic look" we all desire so bad these days.

[Elton]

So far so good in the rolling shutter dept; at least it's no worse than an HV30, which is the base level of my tolerance.

Maybe someone can invent a vibrating 24p adapter for it.

[The Sarlacc]

Thank you, but no thank you sir. I am looking at a Super 8 camera I might get, it gives you that "filmic look" we all desire so bad these days.

but does it have crystal sync?

[The Sarlacc]

So far so good in the rolling shutter dept; at least it's no worse than an HV30, which is the base level of my tolerance.


no shot was up long enough to really scrutinize over this aspect...but I did try and look look and found nothing really. Some an odd aberration or bad edit near the end when the dude bolts out the door.

[Elton]

Thank you, but no thank you sir. I am looking at a Super 8 camera I might get, it gives you that "filmic look" we all desire so bad these days.


Hey man, don't go dissin' on Super 8! Haven't you seen "A Polish Vampire in Burbank"?

[Arrik]

Dayyuuuuum. I was floored by the sharpness, sensitivity, colors, DoF, etc... but DAYYUUUUUUUUUM, that god damn 30p.

Good thing he went all out with what he shot. Imagine if he posted the kind of test footage that were used to here on dvxuser? More people may be ripping it instead of singing its praises. This was a really great way to debut the 5d. Vincent really dressed up that 30p. Some sexy ass video..... but definitely video.

[John Caballero]

Hey man, don't go dissin' on Super 8! Haven't you seen "A Polish Vampire in Burbank"?

Oh! Super 8 was my first one and I will never forget her...

[Elton]

no shot was up long enough to really scrutinize over this aspect...but I did try and look look and found nothing really. Some an odd aberration or bad edit near the end when the dude bolts out the door.

There was enough movement and vibrations in shots to tell me (an HV30 owner) that it was at least at that level, thank god. D90 RS issues would've been beyond disgusting and intolerable coming from the likes of Canon.

[The Sarlacc]

There was enough movement and vibrations in shots to tell me (an HV30 owner) that it was at least at that level, thank god. D90 RS issues would've been beyond disgusting and intolerable coming from the likes of Canon.

I just watch the behind the scenes video and it appears that they were using a single gyro motor from a steadicam modified to fit the 5d...seems a little backwards to me...and certainly didnt appear to help at all in the heli footage if they used the same set up. I could be wrong about the whole thing though.

I've only seen one example from the D90 and it was like RS city.

[John Caballero]

The car footage would have been totally unwatchable coming from a D90.

[Kholi]

Dayyuuuuum. I was floored by the sharpness, sensitivity, colors, DoF, etc... but DAYYUUUUUUUUUM, that god damn 30p.

Good thing he went all out with what he shot. Imagine if he posted the kind of test footage that were used to here on dvxuser? More people may be ripping it instead of singing its praises. This was a really great way to debut the 5d. Vincent really dressed up that 30p. Some sexy ass video..... but definitely video.

All true. And, now that you mention it, that was a pretty damned expensive "test shoot".

Helicopter rides? Suits? Dresses? Maybe not that expensive.

[frisco]

That footage is waaayyyyy better than 95% percent of the video I've seen on this site!!!!!

Not saying it's the end all complete video camera, But those 35mm adapters suck compared to this 5d footage!!! The sharpness adds a another dimension in depth and clarity.

I hear you on the 24p thing..... But I also think viewers are getting used to HD TV and 30p dosn't look so bad

frisco

[f64manray]

All true. And, now that you mention it, that was a pretty damned expensive "test shoot".

Helicopter rides? Suits? Dresses? Maybe not that expensive.


I'm kinda disappointed you didn't do that with the D90. We only got your bathroom sink and a car ride. ;-)

[frisco]

All true. And, now that you mention it, that was a pretty damned expensive "test shoot".

Helicopter rides? Suits? Dresses? Maybe not that expensive.

I think I read it was a $5000 budget and $2000 was the Heli

frisco

[Kholi]

I'm kinda disappointed you didn't do that with the D90. We only got your bathroom sink and a car ride. ;-)

PFFFT. Better be glad you guys got that! LoL. I'm working a lot, these days, and sadly rarely want to even shoot anything random. I tried to get part of a music video on the d90 but I didn't have time to prep it.

It was, however, very funny to attach the D90 to the RED ONE while operating.

We laughed lots.

[The Sarlacc]

kept buffering...dude couldnt hold anything steady to save his life.

[utako.o]

canon spent many many $ for this shot to be perfect.
add the money for drugs so vincent dude would say 5dmk2 rules any $100k camera and you get a big budget for marketing


did you read the blog? $5K for the shoot: 2K was for the helicopter.
the lighting equipement wasn't cheap nor part of the 5K but he wasn't using continuous lighting. just the modeling lights on his profoto strobes (which is like 5K per head)..

[The Sarlacc]

That footage is waaayyyyy better than 95% percent of the video I've seen on this site!!!!!

Not saying it's the end all complete video camera, But those 35mm adapters suck compared to this 5d footage!!! The sharpness adds a another dimension in depth and clarity.

I hear you on the 24p thing..... But I also think viewers are getting used to HD TV and 30p dosn't look so bad

frisco

Depends on what they are watching. Most HD TV content originates in 24fps...cept for sporting events and news.

[logic108]

Profoto is a strobe. Maybe he used that in some of the shots. He was just using a portable LED right? Anyhow he certainly saved cash on the lighting. I mean how could you conventionally light the opening helicopter shot where we see a reflection of the city in his glasses for less than 5K or 10K if at all?
Anyway I see the debate about 24P as academic - not because it doesn't matter but just that at some point in 2009 it WILL come - but what we get now and what really really excites me is 14bit color depth and 3200 ISO. As I said before this is like the fabled Andromeda HVX project accept better because we have less light loss.

[The Sarlacc]

Yeah but he saved 10,000+ dollars on the lighting. Just used a portable LED right?

???

He didn't shoot anything that would have required an extensive lighting package.

[ando]

I think I read it was a $5000 budget and $2000 was the Heli

frisco

the budget was way over what they say it was

you don't advertise a 2600 camera with a 10k budget.
you pay at least 100k for that

[frisco]

the budget was way over what they say it was

you don't advertise a 2600 camera with a 10k budget.
you pay at least 100k for that

Just telling ya what I read.

I hear you on the money.... I live on Advertising dollars. I don't think this one went down like that. Sounds like he did it on spec. Making his money after Canon bought into it.

frisco

[utako.o]

the budget was way over what they say it was

you don't advertise a 2600 camera with a 10k budget.
you pay at least 100k for that

if you follow strobist.blogspot.com, you see what miracles the pro's pull off with just one or two well placed strobe.. i don't have any doubts that no more than one or two small lights were used in each scene.

he did have more than 50K worth of lenses in his arsenal but i'm convinced the cost of the video was what they said it was.

[The Sarlacc]

the budget was way over what they say it was

you don't advertise a 2600 camera with a 10k budget.
you pay at least 100k for that

:huh:

Again...there was nothing in that little short that screamed we spent a lot of money on this.

100k....phhht hahah come on...

5k sounds right because of the chopper ride.

[f64manray]

the budget was way over what they say it was

you don't advertise a 2600 camera with a 10k budget.
you pay at least 100k for that


Dude, Vincent said he shot it for five grand. He told Canon he was going to do a short film, and they told him don't expect anything back from them and he has no commitment from Canon to be compensated. I'm sure five grand is just mad money for him anyway. After seeing the results, Canon would have to be total dicks not to write him a check in appreciation. Canon wouldn't even cut him any slack about how long he could use the camera. I think he only had it for 2 days before he had to give it back. the only reason he was able to handle it at all is because he is part of the "Explorers of Light" program.

[logic108]

Also he is not a filmmaker or videographer. This was his FIRST movie. Which I think is great. It's better than great. It's stupendous!

[Arrik]

Yeah, it depends on the content as well imo.

I just played it for my roommate who doesnt know squat about film. He couldnt tell that there was anything "not filmic" about it even though I told him in advanced to look for it. Afterwards, I explained cadence and persistence of vision and all that boring stuff. Then I showed him a film sequence in 24p and then went back and replayed Vincent's piece so he can see the difference.

He says he prefers the motion of 30p. I asked him would he watch a movie that looks like that. He said he would.

But hes a friggin' moron. :) I still want 24p!!!

[frisco]

Put it this way......

If it dosn't work in 30P............ There is nothing about 24P thats gonna make it any better.

Allot of people on this forum try and hide bad film making behind 24fps and 35mm lens adapters.

frisco






Yeah, it depends on the content as well imo.

I just played it for my roommate who doesnt know squat about film. He couldnt tell that there was anything "not filmic" about it even though I told him in advanced to look for it. Afterwards, I explained cadence and persistence of vision and all that boring stuff. Then I showed him a film sequence in 24p and then went back and replayed Vincent's piece so he can see the difference.

He says he prefers the motion of 30p. I asked him would he watch a movie that looks like that. He said he would.

But hes a friggin' moron. :) I still want 24p!!!

But honestly, like me, I think he was captivated by all the mojo packed into the short. I honestly think if there were two versions of this (one in 24 and other in 30) that he would think differently.

[ozan]

the budget was way over what they say it was

you don't advertise a 2600 camera with a 10k budget.
you pay at least 100k for that


wow, footage quality looks dope.

Its under 10k... most definitely

For a 100k i would honestly expect something better of a product demo video. Not to be harsh.. but, it slightly looks like a last minute / cheap run and gun demo video. Kinda like a 24hr film festival vid but with a heli ride. :)

To bad about the 30p.... but who cares about this 24p or 30p bizness. Its about the content thats in front of the lens and the talented hands behind camera. If the shi* looks good then the frame rate is the last thing u peeps should stress about.

Cant wait for the future! go canon go!

[f64manray]

Yeah, it depends on the content as well imo.



Yep, that's what I'm thinking. I saw a chick do some fascinating things with a Mountain Dew bottle in a video once, and I didn't even notice it wasn't in 24p. I rest my case. Content is everything.

[Kholi]

Put it this way......

If it dosn't work in 30P............ There is nothing about 24P thats gonna make it any better.

Allot of people on this forum try and hide bad film making behind 24fps and 35mm lens adapters.

frisco

To be honest, you're insulting the entire forum. Sure, if it doesn't work in 30p to a degree then it probably won't work at 24p.

That makes no hide nor hair to a community that's embraced film-like cadence and pretty much been born of it.

Do you shoot narrative content? If so, I would HIGHLY doubt that you've SHUNNED 24p by any means, especially considering what forum you're a part of.

[Oedipax]

It's ironic that people are arguing 24p isn't such a big deal on a forum named after a camera that totally revolutionized the prosumer market with precisely that feature!

I mean, if people want to go make their 30p masterpiece, more power to 'em. But understand many of us prefer to work at 24 frames a second and want a camera that can deliver that.

However, I just fiddled around with the Reverie footage in After Effects (using Twixtor to convert it to 24p) and the results are pretty damn good. I'd have to do some more testing to see if it throws off sync sound, but for doing web stuff at 24p, it just might work. Of course, it's a huge workflow drag to have to do conversions on every bit of footage, but for certain things, maybe. Very interesting...

I'm still saving my money for Scarlet though! And I'm still shooting on other cameras in the meantime, so no snide remarks will be necessary, ahem.

[ozan]

It's ironic that people are arguing 24p isn't such a big deal on a forum named after a camera that totally revolutionized the prosumer market with precisely that feature!

I mean, if people want to go make their 30p masterpiece, more power to 'em. But understand many of us prefer to work at 24 frames a second and want a camera that can deliver that.

However, I just fiddled around with the Reverie footage in After Effects (using Twixtor to convert it to 24p) and the results are pretty damn good. I'd have to do some more testing to see if it throws off sync sound, but for doing web stuff at 24p, it just might work. Of course, it's a huge workflow drag to have to do conversions on every bit of footage, but for certain things, maybe. Very interesting...

I'm still saving my money for Scarlet though! And I'm still shooting on other cameras in the meantime, so no snide remarks will be necessary, ahem.

i jst did the same in AE/twixtor like 2 seconds ago. I also gave cineform a try converting 30p to 24p with the raw footage from that DP site... However it slowed the footage by 20% but still playing @ 24p. Looked awesome though! Until scarlet comes out... Helllo pre-order!

[Oedipax]

Also, looking frame by frame at the over-the-shoulder shot of the guy driving at 1:01, you can see some rolling shutter artifacts. It's still miles better than the D90's jello effect from what I can tell. Holds up really well when there are some bumps on the car rig shots and the shaky handheld stuff from the helicopter.

[Kholi]

i jst did the same in AE/twixtor like 2 seconds ago. I also gave cineform a try converting 30p to 24p with the raw footage from that DP site... However it slowed the footage by 20% but still playing @ 24p. Looked awesome though! Until scarlet comes out... Helllo pre-order!

I don't think you'll ever be able to get proper sound like this. However, I think you can check over in the other thread about going from 30p to 60p then back to 24p.

[Kholi]

I just did a quick test this way: 30p > 60p Export in Quicktime Pro then 60p > 24p Export in Quicktime pro.

=T I don't know how willing I would be to do the work around but it looks pretty much right by me, man.

[kevm14]

It doesn't feel like a movie at all. Show anyone in your family if it looks like a movie or just really nice looking video. Everything else is decent, Esteb pointed out the same things I saw.

There's just no way around it, for most of us here 24p is a necessity more-so now with this camera than before, thanks to that footage.

I actually found it fairly bizarre to have such thin DOF yet oddly smooth motion.

[Bebel]

Yeah, it depends on the content as well imo.

I just played it for my roommate who doesnt know squat about film. He couldnt tell that there was anything "not filmic" about it even though I told him in advanced to look for it. Afterwards, I explained cadence and persistence of vision and all that boring stuff. Then I showed him a film sequence in 24p and then went back and replayed Vincent's piece so he can see the difference.

He says he prefers the motion of 30p. I asked him would he watch a movie that looks like that. He said he would.

But hes a friggin' moron. :) I still want 24p!!!

really enjoyed this episode :laugh:

[Bebel]

i jst did the same in AE/twixtor like 2 seconds ago. I also gave cineform a try converting 30p to 24p with the raw footage from that DP site... However it slowed the footage by 20% but still playing @ 24p. Looked awesome though! Until scarlet comes out... Helllo pre-order!

sounds promising!

what do ya recommend for dummies, cineform or twixtor?

what's the workflow in simple steps? cos have no clue about conversion..

thanx if you have the time

[rawfa]

Yeah, it depends on the content as well imo.

I just played it for my roommate who doesnt know squat about film. He couldnt tell that there was anything "not filmic" about it even though I told him in advanced to look for it. Afterwards, I explained cadence and persistence of vision and all that boring stuff. Then I showed him a film sequence in 24p and then went back and replayed Vincent's piece so he can see the difference.

He says he prefers the motion of 30p. I asked him would he watch a movie that looks like that. He said he would.

But hes a friggin' moron. :) I still want 24p!!!

Hahaha. "Much obliged for your assistance...you friggin' moron" . Maybe your friend is into soap opras :)

I do the same thing with my girlfriend (except for the moron thing). I think she'll divorce me if she hears "Does this look like film to you?" one more time.

[John Caballero]

It keeps getting more hilarious. I am telling you, 90 percent of the viewing public should be categorized as "morons" really, because they would not give a damn between the difference of 24 FPS and 30 FPS. Even if you try to explain it to them they would not care. They just want to see a nice clean image and most importantly a good story to follow. Shoot a piece of crap in the most expensive film camera you can get your hands on and people won't watch it for more than a few minutes.
It is so cool to tell your peers you are shooting 24P and feel that you belong but the general public doesn't really care.

[ando]

who noticed the fake dof in the first moments?

it's either lensbaby or post blur

[ando]

Holds up really well when there are some bumps on the car rig shots and the shaky handheld stuff from the helicopter.


sorry to upset a fanboy like you but they're using gyro stabilizers

the most expensive stuff available

nothing is handheld. you think canon is really that stupid to take handheld shots?

at least watch the credits. get it?

[mcshyd]

I find it shallow to consider the dvx as revolutionary as it was solely because of it's ability to shoot 24p. This camera combined a number of elements to spark such an indie boon. It was affordable, lightweight, sturdy... It performed well in low light conditions considering it's competition (the pd150, right?), and it gave you xlr inputs all for under 3k. The dvx did not look like film, no matter how many times you repeat it to yourself in your sleep. What it did well, though, was provide a unique affordable image that was intensely reliable. I think the dvx made the splash that it did because it provided a superior, unique image and allowed a person to fill a back pack with batteries and tapes and not miss a beat over a 12 hour period. Part of this equation is 24p certainly, but had the camera failed to deliver in other ways, it would have been worthless to most. This then, appealed to a new video audience, the resourceful.

The HVX, it's successor, is a camera of sacrifices. Everything that it does well is at the cost of something that made the dvx what it was. Sure, it shoots 720p or variable frame rates, but at the cost of time and low light performance. With the dvx I wouldn't think twice about shooting in a darker setting, with the HVX I straight up would not go. I'm personally exhausted with the amount of work required to get a professional image out of the HVX, although it's worth it. The fact that a professional image can be coerced out of it at all is testament to it's use as an indie camera. But, now I shoot differently. I arrange for more lights. I shoot in less than 12 minute chunks because of the p2 workflow. I need a laptop.

I'm probably going to buy the 5D mark II and sell the hvx for a few reasons. First, the 24p cadence is a non issue for me. I consider the image as a whole, and the footage from the canon has this hyperrealism that is seductive and intensely unique. It shoots 1920X1080, which simply means more money for me. People want the biggest image they can get, for better or worse. Finally, and most importantly, this camera is more like the dvx than the hvx. It's incredibly portable. It's image is unique and (seemingly) reliable. It will shoot in low light conditions. It will shoot in low light conditions. It will shoot in low light conditions. I'm tired of throwing 20 thousand dollars of studio lighting at a subject just get an acceptable hd image. Of course, the one major sacrifice I will be making is having to record audio onto a separate source. Meh.

At worst, using a camera like this will challenge my preconceived notions about filmmaking, and allow me to work in unique ways. This is not a movie solution, or an acceptable solution for a professional production house. This is an interesting and cheap option for the broke and resourceful filmmaker.

[John Caballero]

If you want to shoot something professional you need to use professional support equipment so there is nothing wrong to use gyro stabilizers, actually good for them that they did it like that. That shows everybody a pro at work. The lens is tilt and shift I believe is called. Laforet did a great job with the camera. Kudos to him. BTW I am not buying the camera I just have to give credit where credit is due. Go NYC, you looked beautiful once again.

[ando]

here's your "handheld" footage

http://img121.imagevenue.com/loc15/th_85126_2008-09-23_185048_122_15lo.jpg (http://img121.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=85126_2008-09-23_185048_122_15lo.jpg)

here's the freaky dof (what were they thinking? vignette blurring?)
http://img146.imagevenue.com/loc722/th_85231_2008-09-23_185103_122_722lo.jpg (http://img146.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=85231_2008-09-23_185103_122_722lo.jpg) http://img37.imagevenue.com/loc622/th_85236_2008-09-23_185119_122_622lo.jpg (http://img37.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=85236_2008-09-23_185119_122_622lo.jpg)

watch the heli panorama. there is visible chroma and luma noise. that is completely not usable stuff at full res

[ESTEBEVERDE]

who noticed the fake dof in the first moments?

it's either lensbaby or post blur


:-) it's not "fake" and it's not "post blur".

It is a tilt shift lens. :thumbsup:

[evilfoxhound]

:-) it's not "fake" and it's not "post blur".

It is a tilt shift lens. :thumbsup:

Whatever it is, it should never be used again. By anyone :P

[William_Robinette]

I find it shallow to consider the dvx as revolutionary as it was solely because of it's ability to shoot 24p.

Nope, it was revolutionary for that very reason. The Sony PD-150 is a solidly built camera, that does pretty well at spanking other camcorders at low light performance (including the DVX). The DVX was closer to $4,000 when it came out and I would bet most people on this forum, at least those older members bought it for well above $3,000.

For my money, I will NEVER buy a camera from here on out without 24p for narrative purposes.

Canon really needs to address this issue soon. Like, yesterday.

[ando]

:-) it's not "fake" and it's not "post blur".

It is a tilt shift lens. :thumbsup:

totally forgot about that
thanks


i did find other strange things with this video

i'll post a full "review" later

[mcshyd]

Nope, it was revolutionary for that very reason. The Sony PD-150 is a solidly built camera, that does pretty well at spanking other camcorders at low light performance (including the DVX). The DVX was closer to $4,000 when it came out and I would bet most people on this forum, at least those older members bought it for well above $3,000.

For my money, I will NEVER buy a camera from here on out without 24p for narrative purposes.

Canon really needs to address this issue soon. Like, yesterday.


I guess I was late to the game. Fair enough. People have been trying to sell me on the pro's of the pd150 for years and I always thought the image was pure garbage. I think I'm done with fixed lenses.

[Chris_TC]

i'll post a full "review" later
No need, you've made your agenda pretty clear already.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

canon spent many many $ for this shot to be perfect.
add the money for drugs so vincent dude would say 5dmk2 rules any $100k camera and you get a big budget for marketing

this camera has to sell at all costs. who cares there's jello in vincent's heli shots? who cares you can see noise in night shots at 700 res?
it's a canon

until then i enjoy this http://www.dagbladet.no/kultur/2008/09/21/547601.html


I'll have to watch it again for noise aka grain.

But, the helicopter shot didn't jellocam.

It vibrated and shook laterally because our man had only one gyro.

I've always seen helicopter shots use dual axis gyro. 2 gyros like a +

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Depends on what they are watching. Most HD TV content originates in 24fps...cept for sporting events and news.


Hmmmm... Discovery Channel Shows are 24p or 30p?


Specifically Myth Busters and all that rot.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

the budget was way over what they say it was

you don't advertise a 2600 camera with a 10k budget.
you pay at least 100k for that

His budget was in all probability $5K and some said he OVERSPENT on the Helicopter ride.


What was not calculated was the cost of his Camera 2999 and glass 125,000+++


But still. Great little video.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Yeah, it depends on the content as well imo.

I just played it for my roommate who doesnt know squat about film. He couldnt tell that there was anything "not filmic" about it even though I told him in advanced to look for it. Afterwards, I explained cadence and persistence of vision and all that boring stuff. Then I showed him a film sequence in 24p and then went back and replayed Vincent's piece so he can see the difference.

He says he prefers the motion of 30p. I asked him would he watch a movie that looks like that. He said he would.

But hes a friggin' moron. :) I still want 24p!!!


YEP!


I like Both.


I think we will transition into 30p+ though.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Put it this way......

If it dosn't work in 30P............ There is nothing about 24P thats gonna make it any better.

Allot of people on this forum try and hide bad film making behind 24fps and 35mm lens adapters.

frisco


OUCH!


A+++++++ for cutting it down to the bone!

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Yep, that's what I'm thinking. I saw a chick do some fascinating things with a Mountain Dew bottle in a video once, and I didn't even notice it wasn't in 24p. I rest my case. Content is everything.


I've been waiting three days to say that!


Just couldn't figure a way to put it so succinctly. :beer:

[joe 1008]

Agreed. But I'm in PAL-lando. 25p is SOOOOO useful here, you just can't play 30p on a local TV. So, Canon, pleeeeaaaasse, give us here in Europe 25p!!!! ...:crybaby:

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I just did a quick test this way: 30p > 60p Export in Quicktime Pro then 60p > 24p Export in Quicktime pro.

=T I don't know how willing I would be to do the work around but it looks pretty much right by me, man.


What did you use for each step?

Sound was still good?

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Agreed. But I'm in PAL-lando. 25p is SOOOOO useful here, you just can't play 30p on a local TV. So, Canon, pleeeeaaaasse, give us here in Europe 25p!!!! ...:crybaby:

You do deserve 25p!!! :-)

Hopefully they implement all the major/significant exhibition supported frame rates.

[mcshyd]

Does anyone here have experience with Adobe onlocation and/or know if they have updated it to use inputs other than firewire? I can't seem to find the specs document for cs4.

[The Sarlacc]

It keeps getting more hilarious. I am telling you, 90 percent of the viewing public should be categorized as "morons" really, because they would not give a damn between the difference of 24 FPS and 30 FPS. Even if you try to explain it to them they would not care. They just want to see a nice clean image and most importantly a good story to follow. Shoot a piece of crap in the most expensive film camera you can get your hands on and people won't watch it for more than a few minutes.
It is so cool to tell your peers you are shooting 24P and feel that you belong but the general public doesn't really care.


I agree...but the point is I care...the people I know who watch it care. Thats what matters in the end when its something I shoot.

The general public is really weird when they say what they like vs what is good. "moron" is a very good choice of description.

[The Sarlacc]

sorry to upset a fanboy like you but they're using gyro stabilizers

the most expensive stuff available

nothing is handheld. you think canon is really that stupid to take handheld shots?

at least watch the credits. get it?

You should watch the BTS...they did in fact do handheld. And I'm not convinced of their "gyro" stabilizer. And all the driving footage and heli footage was BUMPY as hell.

[The Sarlacc]

Hmmmm... Discovery Channel Shows are 24p or 30p?


Specifically Myth Busters and all that rot.

Forgot about crap like that...yeah they might shoot in 30, not sure.

[John Caballero]

:-) it's not "fake" and it's not "post blur".

It is a tilt shift lens.

It is amazing how many times you have to repeat the same thing for people here to understand whats going on. Laforet even mentions it on his blog. The footage looks great and its only the beginning.


His budget was in all probability $5K and some said he OVERSPENT on the Helicopter ride.


What was not calculated was the cost of his Camera 2999 and glass 125,000+++


But still. Great little video.

The dude knows what he is doing. Whatever he spent it was worth it for him. It is called marketing and he knows a thing or two about it. That is why he is up there with the big guys. He probably makes that kind of money with a couple of hours work. People in here should learn from this little exersice.

[Chris_TC]

And I'm not convinced of their "gyro" stabilizer. And all the driving footage and heli footage was BUMPY as hell.
I think you need two gyros to properly stabilize a helicopter ride.

[The Sarlacc]

I think you need two gyros to properly stabilize a helicopter ride.

Makes sense. Steadicam Ops use two when they use them. And in the footage we saw they only had one. And it looks "adapted" for use at that hence my not being convinced.

[The Sarlacc]

It is amazing how many times you have to repeat the same thing for people here to understand whats going on. Laforet even mentions it on his blog. The footage looks great and its only the beginning.

Its amazing how many people realize how much can actually be achieved IN camera. Now, the all immediately assume its CG.

[Kholi]

I'm probably going to buy the 5D mark II and sell the hvx for a few reasons. First, the 24p cadence is a non issue for me. I consider the image as a whole, and the footage from the canon has this hyperrealism that is seductive and intensely unique. It shoots 1920X1080, which simply means more money for me. People want the biggest image they can get, for better or worse. Finally, and most importantly, this camera is more like the dvx than the hvx. It's incredibly portable. It's image is unique and (seemingly) reliable. It will shoot in low light conditions. It will shoot in low light conditions. It will shoot in low light conditions. I'm tired of throwing 20 thousand dollars of studio lighting at a subject just get an acceptable hd image. Of course, the one major sacrifice I will be making is having to record audio onto a separate source. Meh.

At worst, using a camera like this will challenge my preconceived notions about filmmaking, and allow me to work in unique ways. This is not a movie solution, or an acceptable solution for a professional production house. This is an interesting and cheap option for the broke and resourceful filmmaker.

I get the enthusiasm and it's well-warranted!

However, throwing away an HVX200 over a 5D to shoot video and expecting to actually make more money with the 5D, which has no manual controls, probably a subpar 1080 image (at best a 720p camera), no true video acquisition form factor (monitoring, audio, etc) is ... a very strange notion.

There are a lot more sacrifices you're missing. Unless you meant more money in a different way.

[Kholi]

The still portion of this camera is actually quite delightful. Someone showed me a high res image and I swear the person in it was looking at me.

Scary.

[The Sarlacc]

The still portion of this camera is actually quite delightful. Someone showed me a high res image and I swear the person in it was looking at me.

Scary.


Yes, all the still examples I have been very impressive.

But the die hard canon heads are irked in regards to using the same 4 year AF system present in the last 5D...where as the upcoming 50D has a newer/better AF system.

[Kholi]

AUTO FOCUS IS FOR WEENIES! -- I say this as I try to auto focus for a d90 still.

[Thebes]

Despite the little flaws, pixelpeeking, etc, it looks really nice. I do wish it did 24p, if they put that in I just might consider converting to Canon from Nikon in which I have a considerable equipment investment... but then I'd probably just end up selling everything and go back to Nikon when they release the D800 or whatever.

I want 24p, I might settle for 25p (half of my audience is PAL), and would find 30p a problem- I know others might not and thats cool too. The more video DSLRs there are competing, the better for us all.

[Steve Castle]

Yes, all the still examples I have been very impressive.

But the die hard canon heads are irked in regards to using the same 4 year AF system present in the last 5D...where as the upcoming 50D has a newer/better AF system.

The AF is something that irks me as well; for an otherwise amazing camera. The problem is only the center AF point is cross type, the outer 8 aren't. What's worse, only the center AF can do F2.8 and below, which makes the fast-primes Canon is known for less useful when using the outer focusing points. If that wasn't enough, the spot-meter isn't linked to the focusing points (only the center). Sometimes you want to meter off of the face, or an object with dramatic lighting, etc. that isn't directly in the center, and its cumbersome to have to always recompose for every single shot when the competitors have these basics down even for cameras a fraction of the price (Nikon even has 51-AF points in all their cameras D300 and above).

Its an amazing sensor, but the AF and metering is a shame, in regards to stills its like having a nice Ferrari engine mated to a 3-speed transmission.

[brian leahy]

Here are some canon XHA1 video grabs from the making of reverie!

[Ian-T]

This whole thread has become very bizzare.

The footage is nice...no matter how one tries to slice and dice it. Sure...it's a pity about the 30p.....but there are workarounds. Someone mentioned that based on the footage this cam is a 720p cam at best....I don't think so....not by a long shot. Yes....some of the motion was "video-like'....but...honestly...the motion was no different from what I've seen in the movie "Collateral" or "Miami Vice" ....they also had their.."video-like" moments (regardless of shooting in 24p).

Things will only get better from here... It sort of started with the D90...and now here comes Canon. For me...it's about the final picture...and so far this Canon cam beats the Nikon hands down. Just wait for Nikon's 2nd generation...they will get it right. Heck....Panasonic has this (http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/20106/panasonic-lumix-g/) cam coming out soon....I can't wait to see what this thing produces. But at the moment....Canon is the winner in my book.

[ozan]

besides from the footage... does the camera allow you full manual control? Has this been already talked about? Is it posted somewhere else? Couldn't find any info on this anywhere.

Does it have the same limitations like the d90? Or is it to early to tell?

o

[Emanuel]

It keeps getting more hilarious. I am telling you, 90 percent of the viewing public should be categorized as "morons" really, because they would not give a damn between the difference of 24 FPS and 30 FPS. Even if you try to explain it to them they would not care. They just want to see a nice clean image and most importantly a good story to follow. Shoot a piece of crap in the most expensive film camera you can get your hands on and people won't watch it for more than a few minutes.
It is so cool to tell your peers you are shooting 24P and feel that you belong but the general public doesn't really care.About what you're trying to refer to?

TV? I can even agree with you. Theatrical mojo? No way. The human perception has some qualities they'll find out on their appreciation. Even though without a full understanding why, anyway. Being the case. And just taking in consideration your logical path, the «90 percent of the viewing public».

In short, 24p or 25p is not 30p. Name: motion. Motion picture is also time, not only space.

[Ian-T]

I agree Emanuel... the general public will notice a difference on the big screen. On a TV....and in many cases a PC.....no. I want 24p.

[Kholi]

This whole thread has become very bizzare.

The footage is nice...no matter how one tries to slice and dice it. Sure...it's a pity about the 30p.....but there are workarounds. Someone mentioned that based on the footage this cam is a 720p cam at best....I don't think so....not by a long shot. Yes....some of the motion was "video-like'....but...honestly...the motion was no different from what I've seen in the movie "Collateral" or "Miami Vice" ....they also had their.."video-like" moments (regardless of shooting in 24p).

It has nothing to do with Motion or 30p/24p. The 1080 samples are too mushy to call it a 1080p cam. That's my thought, though. Perhaps more footage needs to show up but I don't think it resolves enough detail to be 1080.

Just like the compression and such makes the d90 a decent 480 cam to have, I think the same thing for the D5 so far. It'll be good at 540 or 720.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I agree...but the point is I care...the people I know who watch it care. Thats what matters in the end when its something I shoot.

The general public is really weird when they say what they like vs what is good. "moron" is a very good choice of description.


I've shown it to over a dozen "civilians" included professional still photographers and all they say is they "love it"!


I think whether we like it or not the 30p High Def is here to stay.

[The Sarlacc]

I've shown it to over a dozen "civilians" included professional still photographers and all they say is they "love it"!


I think whether we like it or not the 30p High Def is here to stay.

In this camera, yeah.

I also dont expect to be watching any major TV dramas or feature films shot on this thing either.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

You should watch the BTS...they did in fact do handheld. And I'm not convinced of their "gyro" stabilizer. And all the driving footage and heli footage was BUMPY as hell.

They used gyros for a lot of it.

It is right under the cam wrapped in plastic.

I love that damn gyro!

A++++ for the gyro!

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I think you need two gyros to properly stabilize a helicopter ride.

You do.

You put them in a + configuration.

[The Sarlacc]

They used gyros for a lot of it.

It is right under the cam wrapped in plastic.

I love that damn gyro!

A++++ for the gyro!

I dont see why you love it...didnt appear to do much...shake shake shake shake shake.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

In this camera, yeah.

I also dont expect to be watching any major TV dramas or feature films shot on this thing either.


Soon enough we will.


The motion picture industry is a business first and foremost.

Whoever leverages the high def look for a competitive advantage will reap the rewards and others will follow.


I think it's time I do an article on distribution channels.


Movie Theaters are Dodos just waiting for the last shoe to drop.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I dont see why you love it...didnt appear to do much...shake shake shake shake shake.

No.


Gyros don't shake shake shake.


They work.

It's physics man.



He just didn't use them in all shots and he only used half of the proper configuration "on da choppa"!

[Kholi]

30p has nothing to do with a business move or the industry shift; at all. It's not like it costs MORE money to shoot 24p.

Seriously, man. Even I want this debate to go to hell, now.

[f64manray]

In this camera, yeah.

I also dont expect to be watching any major TV dramas or feature films shot on this thing either.

X-Files would have rocked on the 5D. That show was filmed in the dark. I think the low light quality of the 5D may be better than what they were using.

Kholi hates me already. :-)

[Oedipax]

For what it's worth, my mom, who is not a techie person at all, asked me recently why one of her shows "looked different." It was one of the HGTV shows. I took a look at it and realized they were shooting at 24p rather than the usual 60i or 30p. She didn't like it because she felt like the show was more distant at 24p - it was less real, less immediate. She didn't feel as much like she was there with the people looking at the houses.

I explained to her about the 24p vs 60i/30p thing, and flipped around to one of the movie channels showing a 24fps movie and then to another channel showing sports and she saw exactly what I was talking about...

So I don't think it's really the case that the average person doesn't perceive this stuff, or is indifferent. It might not be a conscious thing, but framerates are a major way of differentiating your content, of subtly pushing it in one direction vs. another. They're all equally artificial, of course, and each has their place. For most of what I shoot, I like 24p. If people feel like 30p is the right thing for them, more power to 'em. But I do think people will realize something's different if they watch a movie shot at 30p.

[The Sarlacc]

Soon enough we will.


The motion picture industry is a business first and foremost.

Whoever leverages the high def look for a competitive advantage will reap the rewards and others will follow.



Doesn't work that easily. Or else everything would be shot on RED by now.

[The Sarlacc]

X-Files would have rocked on the 5D. That show was filmed in the dark. I think the low light quality of the 5D may be better than what they were using.

Kholi hates me already. :-)

They shot a lot of things for XFiles 2...Film mainly it appears, Genesis, some HVX. And the 5D would not have given anywhere near the same look.

[Morox]

but who cares about this 24p or 30p bizness. Its about the content thats in front of the lens and the talented hands behind camera. If the shi* looks good then the frame rate is the last thing u peeps should stress about.

Too bad it does not work that way. People DO care, regardless of how fantastic your film may be.

[John Caballero]

Who cares again?

[The Sarlacc]

Who cares again?

I do.

I'm sorry...but if Peter Jackson shot LoTR on video in 30fps...it would have looked like a bad bbc recording of shakespeare. And people would have hated sitting through it for 3 hours. It would have been like watching a video game.

Content is important. Its the basic building block. but you need all the ingredients to make a good stew.

People trying to argue pure content over anything else. I challenge you to to write a script...One that think is of amazing content...and then go make that script...on a fisher price pixelvision camera. And then send that out to the festivals and try and get someone to buy it for distribution...because hey, content rules all right?

[John Caballero]

It brings back memories of El Mariachi. I think it was shot on black and white with photoflood lighting. Wasn't it. Oh but it was 24P, sorry.

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Doesn't work that easily. Or else everything would be shot on RED by now.


It will.


The hangup is the distribution model.


Right now film in film out.


When we are all digital it won't matter.


In fact, the more high def home theater we have the greater the demand for 30p and beyond will be.


HyperRealism indeed!

[ESTEBEVERDE]

Vincent Laforet's Stealth Weekend with the Canon EOS 5D Mark II (http://www.pdngearguide.com/gearguide/content_display/news/e3ifb7c0deaad627f7c9f1fb4d41382ec02)

[Isaac_Brody]

Nice article. I liked this part.


The camera's HD mode was really easy to shoot with. So easy it was kind of scary. I shot wide open at 1600 ISO the whole time

That looked really great for 1600 ISO. Fantastic.

I hope Canon drops a 24P firmware, otherwise my fingers are crossed that the CHDK folks can work their magic. :)

[ESTEBEVERDE]

I do.

I'm sorry...but if Peter Jackson shot LoTR on video in 30fps...it would have looked like a bad bbc recording of shakespeare. And people would have hated sitting through it for 3 hours. It would have been like watching a video game.

Content is important. Its the basic building block. but you need all the ingredients to make a good stew.

People trying to argue pure content over anything else. I challenge you to to write a script...One that think is of amazing content...and then go make that script...on a fisher price pixelvision camera. And then send that out to the festivals and try and get someone to buy it for distribution...because hey, content rules all right?

Zapruder Film
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zapruder_film)

[Batutta]

I took a look at it and realized they were shooting at 24p rather than the usual 60i or 30p. She didn't like it because she felt like the show was more distant at 24p - it was less real, less immediate. She didn't feel as much like she was there with the people looking at the houses

The exact same reason most porn is shot at 60i...Not that I would know or anything.

[ozan]

Too bad it does not work that way. People DO care, regardless of how fantastic your film may be.

In my world.... naaaaa. I dont think it matters. Your eyes are just acustom to seeing to much 24p. There alot of coool shiz thats done in 30p. A good friend of mine still does alot of his stuff in 30p....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-weMaLGros

If your watching somthing thats amazing your eyes will get use to it regardless the frame rates. Trust me is about content not frame rates! There was a comment made earlier on this thread by frisco... which i agree 100% with.


There is nothing about 24P thats gonna make it any better. Allot of people on this forum try and hide bad film making behind 24fps and 35mm lens adapters.

I know its a low comment but unfortunately true in most cases... A camera is jst a tool. Anyone can pick one up and film. Its how you use that tool and stand out from the rest that counts.

anywhoo, this 30p or not to 30p is an endless conversation. A waste. So less bitchin peoples... and more filmin!!

[Kholi]

I do.

I'm sorry...but if Peter Jackson shot LoTR on video in 30fps...it would have looked like a bad bbc recording of shakespeare. And people would have hated sitting through it for 3 hours. It would have been like watching a video game.

Content is important. Its the basic building block. but you need all the ingredients to make a good stew.

People trying to argue pure content over anything else. I challenge you to to write a script...One that think is of amazing content...and then go make that script...on a fisher price pixelvision camera. And then send that out to the festivals and try and get someone to buy it for distribution...because hey, content rules all right?

=T Don't try to be logical if it steps on someone's hopes or dreams to have "the one" in their hands. The One being a Camera that'll only cost an arm and can "theoretically" do more than another one; that's really what it's about, which is the only reason why anyone is justifying 30p and no 24p.

I get you, and I'm sure a lot of other people do as well. It's all good, dude.

[funkydmunky]

I explained to her about the 24p vs 60i/30p thing,

After reading far too many of these posts, I am seeing a pattern of 24p zealots believing 30p and 60i are one and the same, or look the same. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the pro 24p comments are coming from ignorance. How much PROFESSIONALLY shot 30p footage have any of us been exposed too? Zero to none!
The single biggest reason why 30p is undesirable is that it isn't supported in PAL land. That is a real concern for video content distribution. The fact that Canon will not release a 25p PAL version is complete proof that they are protecting their video cam lines as there is no technical excuse for them to do that.

[Kholi]

X-Files would have rocked on the 5D. That show was filmed in the dark. I think the low light quality of the 5D may be better than what they were using.

Kholi hates me already. :-)

I don't hate you. The hell? lol

You guys get down and dirty with 30p. Make Merry!

[logic108]

I understand about 30P and that it does seem to be a format designed for 'computer-based' distribution in that 30P is a no go in PAL land. There are definitely limitations to 30P from a distribution point of view and in that respect I agree with Kholi.
But in terms of IQ then I think the 5D is way ahead of the game. Just preying that in PAL land we get 25P. They wouldn't really give us only 30P right?
So I can absolutely live with 30P in terms of IQ and have no problems with it at all in IQ respect - but yeah it's true 24P is a global standard these days for distribution.

[NikonGuy]

I dont know the technical issues of these different framerates and know little about video in general, but from a novice like me, the D90 footage is more pleasing to watch then the 5DII, not because i own a Nikon, but theres something about the motion in it that makes the footage more interesting to watch in an artistic way, meanwhile the 5DII looks too fluid and clean. It's kind of hard to explain properly since english is not my native language.

Basically it's not the colors or dof that i like better, but a certain "look" in the footage that i cant explain in words. 5DII looks sharp, clean and fluid, but for me doesnt look interesting.

[bill totolo]

Anyone know if this was shot with custom settings like vivid, or just "normal" from the camera?

The colors really pop and the blacks look a little crushed to hide any noise.

[Boomerang]

If Canon gave the option than there would be very little discussion on which is better(which is so subjective). I would assume the larger group of us here who first bought the DVX-100 chose it for this very option. I prefer 24 that does not mean the footage was bad or not great for DSLR but for those of us concerned about a film aesthetic 30/60 does not work for us. So it is a huge disappointment to not have the option.

For me this camera is for fun and family outings where I wont need my gear so D90, 5D its all good just happy to trim the fat. Leave the work to my Pannys :)

[Lee Wilson]

Looks nice ! :) Looks a little 'video camera' in places, not sure why, maybe the lighting but in a few scenes it just looks more 'video' than 'film', maybe it just that it is so clear/sharp ?

[joe 1008]

Couldn't somebody download Vincent Laforet's video and convert it to 24p? I would try it immediately but don't have the tools...:(

[Anhar Miah]

30P Guys:

Be honest, if 24P mode was available along with 30P, which one would you use for your movie?

24P Guys:

Wait/pray for firmware update;
Convert 30P to 24P
Wait for PAL version, (Highly likely to be 25P)

[Bebel]

30P Guys:

Be honest, if 24P mode was available along with 30P, which one would you use for your movie?

24P Guys:

Wait/pray for firmware update;
Convert 30P to 24P
Wait for PAL version, (Highly likely to be 25P)

waiting for a 25p PAL version? are you sure? i mean don't you guys know the specs for the uk?

well i wish i could wait for that my friend! no bro, the specs for the PAL version are already known, at least here switzerland: 30p!

check out the specs at canon switzerland:

http://de.canon.ch/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/EOS_5D_Mark_II/index.asp?specs=1

that just makes it VERY DIFFICULT to shoot videos here in good old europe..

hello canon, did you hear that???

[Rubbersquare]

Couldn't somebody download Vincent Laforet's video and convert it to 24p? I would try it immediately but don't have the tools...:(

i did. went from 30-60-24 in fcp. at first i thought it didn't make much difference, however after watching through a few times (noticing lots of compression issues - this is compressed so many times) then watching the original i DID see a huge difference. at the front of the video, the motion is smooth. towards the middle (about at the point of the silhouette of the woman's face) it's starts to get jumpy. the skyline shot is really bad. not sure what the issue is. not sure if i could upload it since it is very high profile (for this crowd) copyrighted material.

but it does seem a successful way (with some experimentation) to alleviate the 30fps issue. i also desaturated the colors a tad.

[Bebel]

Couldn't somebody download Vincent Laforet's video and convert it to 24p? I would try it immediately but don't have the tools...:(

ja, same same problemo.

but i'd still love to know more about conversion into 24p (i.e. with twixtor)

i mean, converting might be a workaround..

.. til canon will come up with the promised firmware update:-Laugh(DBG)-1

[Anhar Miah]

well i wish i could wait for that my friend! no bro, the specs for the PAL version are already known, at least here in beautiful switzerland: 30p!

check out the specs at canon switzerland:

http://de.canon.ch/For_Home/Product_Finder/Cameras/Digital_SLR/EOS_5D_Mark_II/index.asp?specs=1


:shocked: :shocked:

Oh my, why would Canon do that?? I'm confused.com

Well thats 25P crossed of the list. grrr :(

[Bebel]

:shocked: :shocked:

Oh my, why would Canon do that?? I'm confused.com

Well thats 25P crossed of the list. grrr :(

ja, that just makes me :kali:

let's buy a nikon then..

[joe 1008]

i did. went from 30-60-24 in fcp. at first i thought it didn't make much difference, however after watching through a few times (noticing lots of compression issues - this is compressed so many times) then watching the original i DID see a huge difference. at the front of the video, the motion is smooth. towards the middle (about at the point of the silhouette of the woman's face) it's starts to get jumpy. the skyline shot is really bad. not sure what the issue is. not sure if i could upload it since it is very high profile (for this crowd) copyrighted material.

but it does seem a successful way (with some experimentation) to alleviate the 30fps issue. i also desaturated the colors a tad.

Could you post it on Vimeo?

[Chris_TC]

:shocked: :shocked:

Oh my, why would Canon do that?? I'm confused.com

Well thats 25P crossed of the list. grrr :(
I think all European HD displays are required to accept 30p/60i signals (afaik it's part of the HD Ready standard), so Canon probably took that as an excuse to stick with 30p :(:(:(

[Oedipax]

I don't know much about the underlying technology, but if you've got the bandwidth and technology to do 30 progressive frames a second, shouldn't it be trivial to dial that back down to 24? Is it simply a case of Canon not wanting to cannibalize their other offerings too much, or is there a more engineering-geared explanation?

Also, I once again reiterate: if you're one of the people that are fine with 30p, you have my blessing! Go forth and make great films. I await the emergence of a new global 30p nouvelle vague. And yes, I do in fact know the difference between 60i and 30p. Anyone who's owned a DVX - a DVX User, you might call them - does.

[ando]

I don't know much about the underlying technology, but if you've got the bandwidth and technology to do 30 progressive frames a second, shouldn't it be trivial to dial that back down to 24? Is it simply a case of Canon not wanting to cannibalize their other offerings too much, or is there a more engineering-geared explanation?


reasons? first is that they don't want a dslr to affect camcorder sales. secod reason may be that they are using hardware fixed at 30p, like hw codec chips from camcorders (reusing hardware). i don't think the encoding is done on digic. the mpeg4 is heavy on the cpu and since the camera can contrast AF it means the digic is getting bored while recording. so there's a hardware codec for the mpeg4 which is probably locked to 30p.

canon's powershot cameras also record 30p (was mjpeg but on the new ones h264). not even using the firmware hack you could change the framerate. that's hardcoded forever (at least on all cameras until now)

[David_Tanner]

Im confused, Ive read every post in this thread and I really dont mean to bump it but...

This camera obviously performs really well in low light. Now if you have ever owned an HVX like myself you would be lying if you never had a low light vs low noise issue. Infact I found the Hvx to have a noise issue full stop.

I too notice the difference in this mkii stuff and 24fps stuff but...I really like how well this camera performs in low light and its in my price range. Does that make me an idiot for wanting to try this camera out?

So whats wrong with converting the 30fps to 24fps?

Sure its not ideal, but either was spending extra dosh and time and headaches on lighting setups and trying to eliminate noise by 'tricking' the HVX into creating a somewhat usable image.

Obviously recording 24fps off the bat is better but then so would be low noise!

What Im trying to say is that surely that extra hour or so in post converting 30 to 24 is, going to be less hastle as that extra hour in production 'trying' to get a low noise image and dont us indie filmakers usually have MORE time to crack in post then during a shoot?

Im not interested in 30fps, so can someone please tell me what difference something SHOT with 24fps and something CONVERTED down to 24fps looks like?:huh:
Does it have different motion blur?
What can I expect to be different?
Im thinking if I slow down the footage to 24fps its still gonna appear to clean between frames, not enough motion blur?
However If I cut frames out, like the oldschool way they would overcrank. Would I be loosing those blurry frames? I dont know.
What am I looking for here?

We are saying 30fps feels different from 24fps but also 24fps looks different from...24fps (post)? :eek:

[Nektonic]

We are saying 30fps feels different from 24fps but also 24fps looks different from...24fps (post)? :eek:

Check out this thread.

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=161683