PDA

View Full Version : EOS 5D MK II workaround: Converting 30p into 24p/25p



Bebel
09-22-2008, 04:49 AM
Howzit guys!

Just read that converting 30p into 24p/25p is tricky and not recommended.

Anybody around here with a hands-on, useable solution? Or an innovative approach worth trying? What's the tradeoff?

Any significant differences between converting into 24p and 25p? (that's for the guys from "old Europe" like myself..)

Thanx for helping out.. :beer:

joe 1008
09-22-2008, 02:54 PM
The best way I heard about: Convert 30P to 60P in Twixtor. Then get 24P by a 2:3:3:2 pulldown. But I don't know if it really works flawlessly and how much rendertime is required.

Bebel
09-22-2008, 03:14 PM
thanx joe! interesting! do you think i can get 25p with twixtor too?

anybody around here with hands-on twixtor experience?

joe 1008
09-22-2008, 03:31 PM
25p and 24p are basically the same. Play 24p on a 25p timeline and it should look almost identically. You only have to count with 4% faster movements and also 4% pitched sound. All 24p movies are reproduced on 25p/50i TVs as 25p.

Batutta
09-22-2008, 03:43 PM
The best way I heard about: Convert 30P to 60P in Twixtor. Then get 24P by a 2:3:3:2 pulldown. But I don't know if it really works flawlessly and how much rendertime is required.

I had to do this once on some DVX footage that accidently got bumped to 30p and it worked real well. Cut seamlessly with regular 24p. Took forever to render, though.

Bebel
09-22-2008, 04:04 PM
thanx joe!

batutta: sounds like twixtor is pretty well manageable.. will check out website.

how about the quality of the output?

ESTEBEVERDE
09-22-2008, 04:32 PM
Post the URL and some details when you can.

Thanks.

stoiqa
09-22-2008, 05:09 PM
render time will kill you...almost the same as MB

ESTEBEVERDE
09-22-2008, 06:27 PM
render time will kill you...almost the same as MB


What exactly do you mean?

stoiqa
09-22-2008, 07:16 PM
What exactly do you mean?

takes a lot to render the interframes..it`s not a push button...you`ll have to wait for twixtor to generate frames...something I`m doing now...render

ESTEBEVERDE
09-22-2008, 07:25 PM
takes a lot to render the interframes..it`s not a push button...you`ll have to wait for twixtor to generate frames...something I`m doing now...render


Right, but how long? What is the work flow like?

wjm
09-22-2008, 07:56 PM
MB = Magic Bullet (http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/products/all/magic-bullet-suite/) I think?

joe 1008
09-22-2008, 11:44 PM
Read here:

http://www.revisionfx.com/products/twixtor/

but no word about rendertime...

Would nice if someone would post how long does a minute take to render with a normal duo core!

Bebel
09-23-2008, 05:01 AM
ok thanx! must check that out lata.. lotsa further links there.

right, so how's the workflow like and how long is the rendertime with a let's say 2,4 GHz Intel core duo?

Bebel
09-23-2008, 09:09 AM
so far we have cineform and twixtor.

recommendations? workflow for dummies? further options?

joe 1008
10-08-2008, 04:22 AM
Found this clip on Vimeo rendered with Shake:

http://vimeo.com/videos/search:canon%205d%2024p

ESTEBEVERDE
10-08-2008, 09:23 AM
Read here:

http://www.revisionfx.com/products/twixtor/

but no word about rendertime...

Would nice if someone would post how long does a minute take to render with a normal duo core!

Thanks!

Yes, that is what I was asking.

What does it mean in minutes?

Park Edwards
10-08-2008, 10:29 AM
gotta weird question. what about taking 24p and changing it to 30p? Any suggestions?

Bebel
10-08-2008, 12:11 PM
Found this clip on Vimeo rendered with Shake:

http://vimeo.com/videos/search:canon%205d%2024p


dito! whot about render time with a normal dual core?

and whot about the resulting quality? i mean it's kinda really hard for me to make a judgement based on this clip! anyhow, most experts here say: don't do it - it looks like crap! i wonder if this is true for all the software out there..

Nicky
10-08-2008, 01:32 PM
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=148799

Lee Wilson
10-09-2008, 03:43 AM
Thanks!

Yes, that is what I was asking.

What does it mean in minutes?


Twixtor is very similar to After Effects 'time warp' - both run painfully slow on my Mac (not the latest/greater but still no slouch @ Dual 2ghz G5).

Depending on the content of the frame rendering out a 30 second piece - stretched from 15 seconds to 30 seconds for instance - can take an hour or so.

These pixel motion algorithms are not perfect, but very useful for short pieces and repair work - But I don't see this as a viable way to treat all your footage, and to attempt to convert, let's say, two hours of footage using this method would be crazy (ish).

Go to the Twixtor website and download the demo to get an idea weather this would work for you.

http://www.revisionfx.com/products/twixtor/downloads/

Twixtor works as a plug in for Adobe After Effects, Adobe Premiere, Apple Final Cut Pro HD, Apple Shake, Autodesk Combustion, Autodesk IFF Systems, Softimage|XSI, Avid Systems and Eyeon Fusion.

joe 1008
10-09-2008, 08:04 AM
So If we roughly say these programs, using a last generation computer, would need one hour to convert one minute of footage that would mean you could convert a video clip within 3 to 4 hours and a whole feature film in an extended weekend ( about 4 days) - while you can hang around on a couple of parties ;-)

This doesn't seem to be the most comfortable workaround but it is doable, at least. One could edit the whole footage on a 30p timeline and would have to convert the finished work, only.

If the result was convincing - and only then - I wouldn't hesitate to do the conversion at leats If I don't have to produce that way a steady stream of longer footage.

Chance White
10-09-2008, 08:53 AM
If converting the finished work, how would you insure your cuts are accurate to the frame?

joe 1008
10-09-2008, 09:07 AM
If converting the finished work, how would you insure your cuts are accurate to the frame?

We will have to try to see if the difference matters or if it is inperceivable and a none issue.

dual
10-10-2008, 03:58 PM
If Canon won't add 25p to the new firmware we'll have to work out how to convert 30p. Converting in Twixtor takes hours just for a clip of some minutes, it's really not an option.

But in another thread I heard someone say he uses 30p running at 24p and even improves his footage. I thought that was a great idea. Sound would be a problem of course, but solvable.

Chris_TC
10-11-2008, 03:44 AM
How is sound solvable? Also, 20% slow-motion will probably look strange in most situations.

el presidente
10-11-2008, 04:10 AM
I know one thing..twixtor is not the way to go..dont get me wrong, its great but like timewarp for ae it can give a ripped effect as it tries to interpolate time if you dont put hours of work into each cut.
Great tool...wrong job.

I say hassle canon more.

dual
10-11-2008, 08:31 AM
How is sound solvable? Also, 20% slow-motion will probably look strange in most situations.

I think it will look strange in some situations, but not most. I think it gives a cinematic feel, but that's just my opinion.

And sound is solvable by slowing it down by 20% and raising the pitch by 20%. I think that's a matter of testing and getting the perfect amount of slowness that exactly fits the pictures. People from hv20 have shot 30p.

joe 1008
10-11-2008, 10:47 AM
I think it will look strange in some situations, but not most. I think it gives a cinematic feel, but that's just my opinion.

And sound is solvable by slowing it down by 20% and raising the pitch by 20%. I think that's a matter of testing and getting the perfect amount of slowness that exactly fits the pictures. People from hv20 have shot 30p.

While this might be a solution for certain purposes it definitely doesn't quit the flicker in 30p footage when shooting in the 50Hz world. The more I dig into the issue the more it seems to me that the only solution, for Europe at least, is to be able to shoot at 25p.

Chris_TC
10-12-2008, 03:37 AM
And sound is solvable by slowing it down by 20% and raising the pitch by 20%.
Well, the pitch would have to be raised by [(1 / (1-0.2)) - 1] = 25% I think.
But regardless of that, have you ever tried it?
If it works well, then why do PAL DVD distributors speed up movies to 25fps but leave the audio untreated, resulting in a higher pitched soundtrack?

dual
10-12-2008, 03:56 AM
Well, the pitch would have to be raised by [(1 / (1-0.2)) - 1] = 25% I think.
But regardless of that, have you ever tried it?
If it works well, then why do PAL DVD distributors speed up movies to 25fps but leave the audio untreated, resulting in a higher pitched soundtrack?

No, I haven't tried it and I don't know if it works well. It's an idea and seems less of a problem than converting the video. We all agree that 30p sucks, no doubt about it! :thumbup:

I know that it works though, I've done it several times during editing other things, not 30p though. I guess the distributors don't pitch the sound because it's a complex digital process. Moreover it probably will make it sound less perfect, and a 4% increase of speed doesn't make pitch noticably different.

Lee Wilson
10-12-2008, 10:51 AM
No, I haven't tried it and I don't know if it works well. It's an idea and seems less of a problem than converting the video. We all agree that 30p sucks, no doubt about it! :thumbup:

I know that it works though, I've done it several times during editing other things, not 30p though. I guess the distributors don't pitch the sound because it's a complex digital process. Moreover it probably will make it sound less perfect, and a 4% increase of speed doesn't make pitch noticably different.

4% is less than half a semitone, so you are not likely to notice the pitch shift.

"distributors don't pitch the sound because it's a complex digital process" - they don't do it because they are lazy and no one will notice ! :) For a living I write music for TV ads, some often go to film and they just pitch it down a little - but it is easy (trivial even) to time stretch audio whilst retaining the same pitch.

BrianF
10-12-2008, 07:05 PM
Procedure to get 24p dialogue scene from 30p camera:

1. Record all dialogue, audio only. Edit into a complete audio-only scene.

2. From that master audio scene, create a version that is sped up to 125%.

3. Performers rehearse with this 125%-speed audio scene until they can lip-sync to it as if it is a song.

4. Shoot the scene MOS, with the performers lip-syncing to playback of the 125%-speed audio track. (I.e., shoot as if it is a music video.)

5. Use that 30p footage on a 24p timeline with the regular-speed master audio scene under it.

6. If your reaction to steps 1 through 5 was not, "Damn, that sounds like fun," STOP NOW. YOU ARE DONE WITH THIS SURVEY.

Ian-T
10-12-2008, 07:36 PM
...but it is easy (trivial even) to time stretch audio whilst retaining the same pitch.This is a true statement.:beer:

dual
10-13-2008, 01:14 AM
Procedure to get 24p dialogue scene from 30p camera:

1. Record all dialogue, audio only. Edit into a complete audio-only scene.

2. From that master audio scene, create a version that is sped up to 125%.

3. Performers rehearse with this 125%-speed audio scene until they can lip-sync to it as if it is a song.

4. Shoot the scene MOS, with the performers lip-syncing to playback of the 125%-speed audio track. (I.e., shoot as if it is a music video.)

5. Use that 30p footage on a 24p timeline with the regular-speed master audio scene under it.

6. If your reaction to steps 1 through 5 was not, "Damn, that sounds like fun," STOP NOW. YOU ARE DONE WITH THIS SURVEY.

this would kill a movie

Chance White
10-13-2008, 06:41 AM
Procedure to get 24p dialogue scene from 30p camera:

1. Record all dialogue, audio only. Edit into a complete audio-only scene.

2. From that master audio scene, create a version that is sped up to 125%.

3. Performers rehearse with this 125%-speed audio scene until they can lip-sync to it as if it is a song.

4. Shoot the scene MOS, with the performers lip-syncing to playback of the 125%-speed audio track. (I.e., shoot as if it is a music video.)

5. Use that 30p footage on a 24p timeline with the regular-speed master audio scene under it.

6. If your reaction to steps 1 through 5 was not, "Damn, that sounds like fun," STOP NOW. YOU ARE DONE WITH THIS SURVEY.

lol!

Lee Wilson
10-13-2008, 04:55 PM
Procedure to get 24p dialogue scene from 30p camera:

1. Record all dialogue, audio only. Edit into a complete audio-only scene.

2. From that master audio scene, create a version that is sped up to 125%.

3. Performers rehearse with this 125%-speed audio scene until they can lip-sync to it as if it is a song.

4. Shoot the scene MOS, with the performers lip-syncing to playback of the 125%-speed audio track. (I.e., shoot as if it is a music video.)

5. Use that 30p footage on a 24p timeline with the regular-speed master audio scene under it.

6. If your reaction to steps 1 through 5 was not, "Damn, that sounds like fun," STOP NOW. YOU ARE DONE WITH THIS SURVEY.

Or . . . .

1. Film at 30 and put this footage onto a 24p timeline.

2. Pitch shift the audio up to the correct pitch.

Rubbersquare
10-13-2008, 08:09 PM
or just wait for canon to support 24fps.

cinephil
11-19-2008, 04:21 AM
I'm shure somebody will invent a hack so the camera will output 24/25p for us Pal users.
Remember barry green's frame rate hack for the hvx200 ??

Or maybe we can take a feed from the Hdmi out port (is this hot (live) during capture?)
and put it trough an external recorder into a 25p container ?

Anybody ??

Lee Wilson
11-19-2008, 01:10 PM
Or maybe we can take a feed from the Hdmi out port (is this hot (live) during capture?) and put it trough an external recorder into a 25p container ?


The HDMI output will be 30p (or 60i), so this route would be futile.

I would just convert the whole project at the end:

Here's a couple I did earlier . . . .

http://www.vimeo.com/2069928
http://www.vimeo.com/2072194

Emanuel
11-19-2008, 03:50 PM
It does seem interesting.

Barry?

Thanks Lee for everything. I've become admirer of your workarounds.

About this vintage filmmaker (with who John Malkovich has worked for several features and I had the pleasure to be personally in touch with) -- 100 years old next December 11, still shooting (!) :

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0210701/

A former teacher (with who made his career) told me@filmschool, his secret has been to have always a solution for a problem, instead of an obstacle for an excuse.

Manoel de Oliveira began is career during 20s (silent cinema).



EDIT -- Here is Lee's post:
The HDMI output will be 30p (or 60i), so this route would be futile.

I would just convert the whole project at the end:

Here's a couple I did earlier . . . .

http://www.vimeo.com/2069928
http://www.vimeo.com/2072194

cinephil
11-19-2008, 11:15 PM
I did change 30 seconds of 30p into 25p using timewarp in AE.
(Thank you mister Kramer)
On my (old) g5 dual 2Ghz it took 2 and a half hour !!
Imagen if you have to change 30 minutes :crybaby:

Lee Wilson
11-20-2008, 04:15 PM
I did change 30 seconds of 30p into 25p using timewarp in AE.
(Thank you mister Kramer)
On my (old) g5 dual 2Ghz it took 2 and a half hour !!
Imagen if you have to change 30 minutes :crybaby:

30 minutes would be something you would leave cooking over the weekend that's why I say . . .


I would just convert the whole project at the end.

Lee Wilson
11-20-2008, 04:20 PM
Thanks Lee for everything. I've become admirer of your workarounds.

Cheers ! :)



About this vintage filmmaker (with who John Malkovich has worked for several features and I had the pleasure to be personally in touch with) -- 100 years old next December 11, still shooting (!) :

All this technical exercise has been demonstrably shown to keep the brain young ! It has also been shown that keeping the brain young systemically keeps the body young.

mattsand
11-21-2008, 03:38 AM
30 minutes would be something you would leave cooking over the weekend that's why I say . . .
your weekends have 150 hours? damn i need to relocate. :-)

/matt

joe 1008
11-21-2008, 12:40 PM
your weekends have 150 hours? damn i need to relocate. :-)

/matt

On an actual PC or MAC the numbers seem to be rather 1 minute of rendertime for 1 second of footage. A weekend should have about 48 hours so with the next computer generation (or a 8core MAC) you will be able to render a complete feature in a weekend. Not SO bad IMO. I personally get mentally prepared for that workaround. (Until the next Canon generation and then still have a nice B-cam)

The Foundry Furnace FCP plugin interpolates frames with motion vectors and claims to cope even with partwise hidden objects. The program also removes FLICKER!!!! (one more issue of 30p in the 50hz world)

10s
11-21-2008, 01:45 PM
I talked today with a Canon rep demoing this new 5D MkII camera (it looks nice) about including 24P & 25P as well as the 30p with full manual overide controls. He seems open to this idea and said Canon Corporate does listen to the reps and us potential buyers. I invited him to show up here at DVUSER and gather input from us.

Make your wishlist. Maybe we can find a degree of common consensus on what we cinematic filmmakers want on a camera like this. It's not too late for some changes.

thx

joe 1008
11-21-2008, 03:23 PM
Make your wishlist. Maybe we can find a degree of common consensus on what we cinematic filmmakers want on a camera like this. It's not too late for some changes.

thx

You already put it: 24/25p & manual controls. Nothing more, nothing that could not be done. (at least for that price)

f64manray
11-21-2008, 04:01 PM
I talked today with a Canon rep demoing this new 5D MkII camera (it looks nice) about including 24P & 25P as well as the 30p with full manual overide controls. He seems open to this idea and said Canon Corporate does listen to the reps and us potential buyers. I invited him to show up here at DVUSER and gather input from us.

Make your wishlist. Maybe we can find a degree of common consensus on what we cinematic filmmakers want on a camera like this. It's not too late for some changes.

thx

I'm sure if your rep talks to Canon's video division, they'll be happy to slap him in the head.

10s
11-21-2008, 05:22 PM
I'm sure if your rep talks to Canon's video division, they'll be happy to slap him in the head.


We talked about that, as I put, they have a choice, you can either be first and get the market share or follow Nikon, Red and whoever else and be a follower lagging behind. It's not like this isn't going to happen, it's really a matter of who & when.

As far as competing with the video division, these cameras will never have a full blown audio section worth much, they don't have the best form factor for motion picture though that is being resolved by others, and there's nothing stopping the video division from using the same basic imager and lens system and making really great video cameras.

reem12
11-21-2008, 06:01 PM
I think canon has something up its sleeve, and will be introducing this technology on their future video cams.

John Sandel
11-21-2008, 09:41 PM
Deep pockets = long sleeves.™

joe 1008
11-22-2008, 06:20 AM
I think the most transcendent moment will be the first feature shot on the 5d proyected on a big screen an nobody in the audience (besides 2 or 3 very EXPERTS) will see any difference compared to a RED or 35mm. All the flaws of this camera have workarounds and here are people on this forum who achieved excellent results with much less than a 5d.

Gordon Prince
11-28-2008, 08:35 PM
It does seem interesting.

Barry?

Thanks Lee for everything. I've become admirer of your workarounds.

About this vintage filmmaker (with who John Malkovich has worked for several features and I had the pleasure to be personally in touch with) -- 100 years old next December 11, still shooting (!) :

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0210701/

A former teacher (with who made his career) told me@filmschool, his secret has been to have always a solution for a problem, instead of an obstacle for an excuse.

Manoel de Oliveira began is career during 20s (silent cinema).



EDIT -- Here is Lee's post:It should be nice to have his word on such conversion tests.

John Caballero
11-28-2008, 09:13 PM
The fact is that to achieve a final quality product any film needs to go thru a rigourous post production process, with corrections and whatnot. The same will be with pro stuff shot with this Canon. Between the camera workarounds and top noch post production work there will be a whole bunch of high quality material coming out from this machine.

Barry_Green
11-29-2008, 04:17 PM
It should be nice to have his word on such conversion tests.
30p to 24p is one of those scenarios where it just doesn't make much sense at all. It's a case of twisting something to do a job it was never designed to do. If someone wants to devote weeks and weeks to the task because they couldn't afford the right tool for the job, and they think that time expenditure is worth it to them, then nobody will tell them "no". But for anyone who values their time, just shooting on the right tool will be infinitely less painful.

Gordon Prince
11-29-2008, 04:43 PM
Understood. However, is it possible with acceptable results, isn't it Barry? What do you think about Lee tests?

mattsand
11-29-2008, 04:53 PM
loads of features are shot on sd video and people don't seem to notice that either. if it fits your vision, use it, don't worry about the audience so much.

/matt

Caesar
11-29-2008, 04:54 PM
I would just convert the whole project at the end:

Here's a couple I did earlier . . . .

http://www.vimeo.com/2069928
http://www.vimeo.com/2072194Yes, but they are 25p conversions, not 24p.

Is there any difference between conversions from 30p to 25p vs 30p to 24p?

Lee Wilson
11-29-2008, 05:08 PM
Yes, but they are 25p conversions, not 24p.


I don't understand your use of the word 'but' ?

I live in a PAL region (UK) - we broadcast at 50hz, so I wanted to see how 30p converts to 25p - the results of the first test looks pretty good to me.



Is there any difference between conversions from 30p to 25p vs 30p to 24p?

Yes, 24p is 1fps slower. :2vrolijk_08:

Lee Wilson
11-29-2008, 05:19 PM
30p to 24p is one of those scenarios where it just doesn't make much sense at all. It's a case of twisting something to do a job it was never designed to do. If someone wants to devote weeks and weeks to the task because they couldn't afford the right tool for the job, and they think that time expenditure is worth it to them, then nobody will tell them "no". But for anyone who values their time, just shooting on the right tool will be infinitely less painful.


To complete what is implied . . . .

But for anyone who values their time more than their art.


I am not sure that film making should ever be about saving time, I would - without a second thought - dedicate weeks and weeks to getting something just how I want it if my budget limited my choice of tools. Obviously for those who cant afford the right tool for the job, the choices are limited, to dedicate my time is a small price to pay.

Of course I agree that if you can afford the right tools (something that can match the 5D2 in image quality and shoots 24/25) then that would be a better choice.

But right now, with a little patience and dedication you can generate great 24/25p from the 5D2 and of course the process does not take weeks and weeks.

. . . . . .


On a different note:

I wonder if this is the first device - in the modern history of camcorders - from any manufacturer to be released into PAL territories without the local frame rate ?

Caesar
11-29-2008, 09:45 PM
I don't understand your use of the word 'but' ?

I live in a PAL region (UK) - we broadcast at 50hz, so I wanted to see how 30p converts to 25p - the results of the first test looks pretty good to me.




Yes, 24p is 1fps slower. :2vrolijk_08:I'd just like to know if is it possible to get the same or acceptable outcome converting to 24p? Thanks.

Caesar
11-29-2008, 09:47 PM
Understood. However, is it possible with acceptable results, isn't it Barry? What do you think about Lee tests?I ask the same.

Barry_Green
11-29-2008, 09:57 PM
To complete what is implied . . . .

But for anyone who values their time more than their art.
No, what was implied was "anyone who values their time more than just spending more to buy the products that will work out of the box rather than trying to come up with some post solution to make a product do what it wouldn't otherwise normally do."

I very well understand the appeal of trying to extract maximum performance out of an affordable product. I mean, when I was 15 I dismantled the muffler off a mo-ped to reduce back pressure and took apart the whole engine to polish the piston to try to get an extra mph or two out of it. But nowadays it just seems a huge waste of time. You want something faster, buy something faster and be done with it, right? When I was 16 I had a Honda 400, and I used to pester the parts shop about getting in a big-bore kit for it. Nowadays I look back and realize that was just crazy; I should have just spent a little more and gotten the 650. But at the time I was all agog with the idea of changing/twisting/adapting whatever I had, into whatever it was that I actually wanted. Nitrous? Turbo? Whatever.

But what I learned sooner rather than later was that all that ends up happening is you end up screwing yourself by voiding your warranty, hacking apart a perfectly-working, properly-engineered product to try to turn it into something it was never intended to be.

So - Gordon and Emmanuel asked what I thought of this. My quick response, as listed above, is: why bother? It seems like a tremendous amount of hoop-jumping to go through, and soon enough there'll be an alternative. Until then, just get a 150 with a Lex and shoot your opus.

(and this being said from a guy who's going to buy an EOS 5D Mark II on Monday morning. But not to shoot video with.)

Barry_Green
11-29-2008, 09:59 PM
I ask the same.
I've seen Twixtor do some amazing things. I've also downloaded the demo and tried it on my own footage and seen it repeatedly screw stuff up. I don't trust it. I would hate to commit tens of thousands of dollars of budget, and everyone's time and effort, and then end up with something that I couldn't make work.

Others may feel differently, go right ahead and feel differently, nobody's stopping you. But I wouldn't do it. If they announce an EOS 6D with 24P mode, then maybe. But by the time that comes out the Scarlet will probably be out, and the whole conversation will completely disappear.

Caesar
11-29-2008, 10:11 PM
Thanks for your help. But...

1) What's your impression about Lee's 25p conversion tests?

2) If they are acceptable in your opinion, do you think we can get the same result going with a conversion to 24p?

3) And comparing them with Twixtor... once you said about Twixtor: "I've never heard anyone report good results in anything other than limited test shots". Do you think the same about Lee's method?

Lee Wilson
11-29-2008, 11:50 PM
I'd just like to know if is it possible to get the same or acceptable outcome converting to 24p? Thanks.


Absolutely ! I think it might be even better as the maths is more suited - (although I have not given it too much thought).

Lee Wilson
11-30-2008, 12:02 AM
It seems like a tremendous amount of hoop-jumping to go through, and soon enough there'll be an alternative.

It really is straightforward.

The steps for converting 30 to 24/25p takes moments to set up - import your footage - enter the export settings - hit 'go' ! 5 minutes work (and 5 hours rendering ! :Drogar-BigGrin(DBG) )

There is little more to it than that, no hoops to be jumped.

Like I say I agree with your basic point, if you can get you hands on a machine that shoots 24/25 in the first place (and has the look you need) - then all the better.

Caesar
12-01-2008, 01:02 AM
Thanks Barry for your PM. He has a favorable opinion about your tests, Lee. What a few of us are wondering... will your conversion method show an acceptable outcome in ANY situation (for both 25p and 24p cases) ?

Emanuel
12-01-2008, 05:45 AM
Thanks Barry for your PM. He has a favorable opinion about your tests, Lee. Glad to know. Thanks Barry!




(...)

So - Gordon and Emmanuel asked what I thought of this.

(...)

Caesar
12-11-2008, 05:45 AM
I would just convert the whole project at the end:

Here's a couple I did earlier . . . .

http://www.vimeo.com/2069928
http://www.vimeo.com/2072194Did you convert from the original 30p file? Because if not, you just used something already converted before from 30p (Vimeo converts everything to 24p).

mattsand
12-11-2008, 07:22 AM
Did you convert from the original 30p file?
no, he obviously took the 15 fps youtube version. :-)

/matt

joe 1008
12-11-2008, 08:38 AM
(and this being said from a guy who's going to buy an EOS 5D Mark II on Monday morning. But not to shoot video with.)

I bet you will try! :evil:

Emanuel
12-12-2008, 09:00 AM
I've found this:


«You can edit in 30P, then when finished, run the footage through a conversion to 24P. Apple Shake and Motion have Optical Flow technology that works very well for this. It is not frame blending, the frames are completely redrawn using an advanced technology called Motion Vectors. The result is cinema quality. If your footage going in is 180 degree shutter, that will be the angle generated. It works best with Progressive to Progressive conversions since the Interlacing can lead to some flickering between frames.

I do this quite often for TV commercials and DVD's that often look better at 24P in Standard def. That said, I prefer the look of 24P in standard def since DVD's and Plasma TV's will remove the pulldown automatically and thereby increase resolution. In native HDTV environments I prefer the look of 30P for most footage since it just locks in with most Display refresh rates better with less flicker.

Shooting in 30P is the better choice all around since the Optical Flow conversion works best when "down converting" frames rather than raising the frame rate.»


http://cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25&p=284&hilit=conversion#p284


«As I've said about 30 times around here lately, (it*) can be easily and perfectly retimed to 24P if you have Apple Final Cut Studio's Motion app, or Apple Shake. The technology is called Optical Flow, and alternately may be called Motion Vectors.

30P is a serious limitation of the camera only if you don't have the right software. Most if not all indie filmmakers have this software. It's like the Photoshop of film making.

In the vast majority of footage, 30P will look better on an HDTV. 24P is only superior in SD when delivered over DVD compression.»

* typo (in the original text it is mentioned 24p) as far as I could understand


http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29496902


~ Matthew Thomas

http://www.thomasarts.com (company website)
http://gallery.me.com/thomasarts (company photo working gallery)
http://gallery.me.com/mthomas

mattsand
12-12-2008, 09:04 AM
it takes *a lot* of rendering time and the results aren't always perfect. that's what the debate is about. it's a fact that it *can* be done and quite easily so.

/matt

Emanuel
12-12-2008, 09:05 AM
The answer comes here:


«You make it sound so easy! If only it was.. :-)

I work in Visual effects, and I've been working in the field for years. I've personally worked with most major compositing packages over this time. Shake and Nuke both have optical flow methods and both are very good (we use them mainly to retime shots, make them longer etc.) and for certain shots, you would be hard pressed to tell it wasn't originally shot like that.

BUT, in order for optical flow to work successfully at all, you have to have footage that lends itself to be retimed nicely in the first place. A good example of a shot that is horrible for retiming, is a crowd shot from waist level stacked on top of eachother. The algorithm to calculate the motion vectors that optical flow uses, will have a hard time tracking what belongs to what, creating artifacts in the rendered frames. This is but one example, many shots with countering motion between parallaxing objects are headaches to deal with.

(...)

Taking my notes above, my point is that software will only work when the footage is agreeable. And even then, it isn't quite the same as film with a 180 degree shutter.. But certain types of shots work much better than others.

I also want to note, that not all 30p footage is the same. The motion blur from standard film is about 2 times faster than 24p, so about 1/48th second per frame. This creates the familiar motion blur we associate with "film". Many 30p sources are shot at faster shutters, creating more crisp "video" looking footage, like Vincent Laforet's latest short film "Reverie". That's the main reason it still looked like video, as beautiful as it was.

30p shot at a shutter speed of 1/48th would be much closer to a film look than using the shutter that they had used at but with 24p output. 24p AND 1/48th are necessary for the look.

Back to the topic, my point here is that to achieve a "film" look, and not just convert video footage to different frame rates, you need to capture the footage the real way. Software as you pointed out, can help, but they are limited and need a lot going for them to be truly successful.»


~ Nordin [ LINK (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/postersprofile.asp?poster=hjilidieheiv) for profile] http://rahhali.com


EDIT -- Here's the link:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29497059

Lee Wilson
12-12-2008, 09:14 AM
Did you convert from the original 30p file? Because if not, you just used something already converted before from 30p (Vimeo converts everything to 24p).


How would I download the 24p version ?

Caesar
12-12-2008, 10:26 AM
How would I download the 24p version ?That clip is not available for download, you can check at Vimeo. You could and can extract the 24p version from your temporary internet files. What exactly did you do it? Where did you get the original 30p file? If I can ask...

mattsand
12-12-2008, 12:25 PM
That clip is not available for download

You're trying to convince somebody who did that he didn't? Good luck.

Lee Wilson
12-13-2008, 09:07 AM
Cesar, my question was rhetorical (it was not a genuine question).


Here are the clues that may lead you to the answer you seek for your question:
"Did you convert from the original 30p file"

Clue 1: You cannot (easily or at full quality) download Vimeo's 24p conversion.

Clue 2: You can (and very easily) download the original 30p source footage.

Clue 3: My example runs at 25p - I entered the correct percentages (in After Effects) to change 30p to 25p.

Clue 4: I know what I am doing, as I used to do this kind of thing for a living ! :)





Where did you get the original 30p file? If I can ask...

When you are logged in to Vimeo, go to the movie page you are interested in, in the bottom/right of the page is a grey bar that says: 'Downloads' and under that a link that you can click on and download the original uploaded file.

Caesar
12-13-2008, 01:24 PM
When you are logged in to Vimeo, go to the movie page you are interested in, in the bottom/right of the page is a grey bar that says: 'Downloads' and under that a link that you can click on and download the original uploaded file.I know. But the file is not available there for download. Please check it there. That's why I've asked to you. Probably you thought that you had downloaded the original 30p clip.

Lee Wilson
12-13-2008, 02:28 PM
I know. But the file is not available there for download. Please check it there. That's why I've asked to you. Probably you thought that you had downloaded the original 30p clip.

Yeah, I thought I had downloaded the original 30p, but I must have somehow managed to devise an easy way of downloading Vimeo's 24p conversion (and then forgot all about doing it) - and then I must have accidentally used After Effects to turn the 24p into 25p, when I thought I was turning 30p into 25p (I just must have put the right maths in for 24p to 25p without noticing).

Silly mistake of mine, thanks for pointing it out.

Gordon Prince
12-13-2008, 03:20 PM
Don't you have a 5DMk2? Why don't you show us more tests? It should be useful instead.

joe 1008
12-13-2008, 07:01 PM
Yes, we need more examples. Lee's footage is the only one (beside VERY short other clips) I could look at. And there has passed quite a lot of time since then. We need to see difficult scenes with a lot of motion, we need longer takes to analyze them adecuadly. We need to SEE more and TALK less.

I´m optimistic that the conversion from 30p to 24p is a viable workaround. Converting a video clip or a short over night - why not? Let your computer run a long weekend for a feature? It could be worse. But I'm driven by optimism, not by hard facts...

Lee Wilson
12-13-2008, 07:28 PM
Yes, we need more examples. Lee's footage is the only one (beside VERY short other clips) I could look at.

If you have After Effects or Compressor or any package that does good pixel motion / optical flow / Twixtor / Time Warp (or whatever they want to call it) - then sling some footage in (doesn't have to be 5D2 footage - just 30p) and give it a whirl.


P.S the above post (about downloading the 24p and not 30p footage) was sarcasm - in case anyone thought otherwise ! :)

Emanuel
12-13-2008, 10:55 PM
If you have After Effects or Compressor or any package that does good pixel motion / optical flow / Twixtor / Time Warp (or whatever they want to call it) - then sling some footage in (doesn't have to be 5D2 footage - just 30p) and give it a whirl.


P.S the above post (about downloading the 24p and not 30p footage) was sarcasm - in case anyone thought otherwise ! :)Lee,

I don't have them for now. It should be nice if you might add some more conversion tests.

:dankk2:
E. :-)

mattsand
12-14-2008, 02:37 AM
I know what I am doing, as I used to do this kind of thing for a living ! :)


That's a funny thing on all video boards i've ever visited. All "kids with video cameras" assume that everybody else is too, and proceed trying to teach you things about "old nikon lenses" based on an ebay ad they just saw, not realizing that you once bought one of those brand new when they were state of the art and that you've been using them professionally ever since. I like this attitude though, it's very easy to forget the joy of learning new things when so many things come automatically. I'm only 35 btw so i still pretend to be a "kid with a video camera" once in a while even though i've been a photographer for 20 years.

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 05:09 AM
That's a funny thing on all video boards i've ever visited. All "kids with video cameras" assume that everybody else is too, and proceed trying to teach you things about "old nikon lenses" based on an ebay ad they just saw, not realizing that you once bought one of those brand new when they were state of the art and that you've been using them professionally ever since. I like this attitude though, it's very easy to forget the joy of learning new things when so many things come automatically. I'm only 35 btw so i still pretend to be a "kid with a video camera" once in a while even though i've been a photographer for 20 years.

Ha! very true ! :) Same story for me but from less of a photography side and more a computer imaging side:

[wonders down memory lane . . . . . . ]

I remember using Photoshop when it couldn't rotate images, so if you scanned your image (greyscale only) in the wrong orientation, you couldn't - for instance - rotate it 90deg to correct it, you had to throw it away and re-scan it the right way up !

I remember seeing the first colour scan in London - (a photograph of some fruit if I remember correctly) - I went around to a friends print/scanning house to join the throng of excited/confused onlookers !

I remember a company I worked for getting their first server . . . . . which was a massive . . . . wait for it . . . . . 100 MB ! We thought this was so big at the time we Christened it 'The Pit' - as, to us, this was an endless pit of storage we could never possibly fill up (with our 28k illustrator/Quark files).

I remember explaining to a client way over 15 years ago that if you factor in the colour sub carrier, NTSC will run at 29.97/59.94 rather than 30/60.

I remember getting the first HD monitor in all of Europe (!!) - a company I worked for were given a HD digital (reel to reel) machine and two massive (I mean MASSIVE!) HD CRT monitors from Sony. We developed the first (non-commercial) way of laying off HD frames from a computer to digital tape using a Quadra 700 (!!!!!) as the front end - this was all over a decade ago.

And so on ad nauseam . . . z z z z Z z Z Z Z z Z z Z z

So, having explained to Caesar that I have simply taken a 30p file and converted it to 25p using After Effects built in time stretch doesn't seem like such an outrageous claim ! :)

That you cannot download (readily) the Vimeo 24p conversion - and that you can (easily) download the 30p version - and that is what I have claimed to do - should be enough of a clue !

:zombie_smiley::crybaby::)

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 05:14 AM
Anyone heard about these 'old nikon lenses' ? Apparently they have a dial to control the aperture* - this is no joke, I am being serious - I saw someone selling one on ebay.

*the aperture means the hole on the front of the camera that can see the picture in the camera (or outside the camera ?) and let's the ink** from the world (outside) get into the camera to make the pixels for the JPEG file.

**Might not be ink, I am not sure, could be some kind of computer paint.

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 05:16 AM
Lee,

I don't have them for now. It should be nice if you might add some more conversion tests.

:dankk2:
E. :-)

I am going to get a bath right now, so I will leave a little bit of 5D2 cooking for you.

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 08:02 AM
I am going to get a bath right now, so I will leave a little bit of 5D2 cooking for you.:dankk2: Lee.

And if it is allowed to me, I'd like to see you both personally. Lee in UK, Mattias in Scandinavia, I am for now in Rome. Even though, my group has partners distributed a little bit among Rome, Lisbon, Hamburg and other places. We might cooperate in some project. Europe is not so big! Be cool and good 'boys with cameras', Santa Claus is around the corner. :)

Emanuel :-)

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 08:17 AM
:dankk2: Lee.

And if it is allowed to me, I'd like to see you both personally. Lee in UK, Mattias in Scandinavia, I am for now in Rome. Even though, my group has partners distributed a little bit among Rome, Lisbon, Hamburg and other places. We might cooperate in some project. Europe is not so big! Be cool and good 'boys with cameras', Santa Claus is around the corner. :)

Emanuel :-)

I will meet you all in Paris in two hours, don't be late, I shall be wearing an orange rain coat.

Ok, this one is quick and rubbish ! I did nothing to make the picture look good, I didn't even zoom in to focus ! :zombie_smiley: So ignore the quality (might use a tripod next time !!!)

30p Footage > into After Effects > time stretch to 83.333333% using interpolation > render to 25p.

http://www.vimeo.com/2522507

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 08:35 AM
:dankk2: No problem at all with the subject. The proof is in the pudding. :thumbsup:

Next time, you can add a british blonde if I am not asking too much.

Seriously, if you can add other situations, it would be fine. The quality of the footage is completely irrelevant. These are tests, not masterpieces.

Emanuel :-)

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 11:36 AM
Another one . . . . it's very very very cold here in London today, so all these shots are either inside or less than 10 meters away (any further and I might not make it back and freeze to death) I might go further out tomorrow (maybe as much as 200 meters).

http://www.vimeo.com/2524276

bronxjragon
12-14-2008, 11:56 AM
isnt there a canon 5d mII forum elsewhere. i thought this was a d90 thread

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 12:00 PM
isnt there a canon 5d mII forum elsewhere. i thought this was a d90 thread


If you are looking for a 5D2 forum go to: www.cinema5d.com (lots of good infor for you there).

As for this being a 'D90' thread, there are clues in the thread's title ;P

'EOS 5D MK II workaround: Converting 30p into 24p/25p"

bronxjragon
12-14-2008, 12:04 PM
If you are looking for a 5D2 forum go to: www.cinema5d.com (http://www.cinema5d.com) (lots of good infor for you there).

As for this being a 'D90' thread, there are clues in the thread's title ;P

'EOS 5D MK II workaround: Converting 30p into 24p/25p"

my point was theres so much 5d stuff on this d90 subforum, shouldnt the 5d stuff be in another section. the last 5 or such threads have been about 5d rather than d90. ;P

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 12:15 PM
Maybe you are right, some moderator should ship all these 5D threads over to the 'Canon Cameras' Sub-Forum.

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 01:59 PM
Another one . . . . it's very very very cold here in London today, so all these shots are either inside or less than 10 meters away (any further and I might not make it back and freeze to death) I might go further out tomorrow (maybe as much as 200 meters).

http://www.vimeo.com/2524276Lee,

I can't access to your Vimeo file (private stuff).

E. :-)

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 02:09 PM
Lee,

I can't access to your Vimeo file (private stuff).

E. :-)

Vimeo is so random sometimes, I never touch the 'privacy' settings, sometimes it makes them 'Public', sometimes 'Private' ?

Switched to 'Public' now.

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 02:13 PM
my point was theres so much 5d stuff on this d90 subforum, shouldnt the 5d stuff be in another section. the last 5 or such threads have been about 5d rather than d90. ;P
Maybe you are right, some moderator should ship all these 5D threads over to the 'Canon Cameras' Sub-Forum.You are both surely right. I had applied myself to be a mod here (other cameras sub-forum) a long time ago. Despite you can't find native* mods in this part of dvxuser.com -- an excellent moviemaking community since its beginning. However, Jarred is not too much in this extra mood. His business is not to support a DSLR shooters community.

* I mean, outside the DVX or HVX realm.

Another interesting fact is how much free this sub-forum is. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be owned by one of the RED project heads. I must admit, I have read some unpleasant points, at times. We should all know, this is RED's house too.

On the other hand, the fact is D5 Mark II has immersed D90, as well, a complete new DSLR market has emerged.


Vimeo is so random sometimes, I never touch the 'privacy' settings, sometimes it makes them 'Public', sometimes 'Private' ?

Switched to 'Public' now.:thumbsup: :laugh: I loved (still loving :-) the blonde. Well, I should admit, I love blondes. Who is she? Your wife, girlfriend? Fishy, the pinky tone. :) It does effectively seem the pink disturbance that affects the film positive emulsions over a print some years old.

joe 1008
12-14-2008, 02:45 PM
Another one . . . . it's very very very cold here in London today, so all these shots are either inside or less than 10 meters away (any further and I might not make it back and freeze to death) I might go further out tomorrow (maybe as much as 200 meters).

http://www.vimeo.com/2524276

Thank you, Lee! So, converting these two clips took you a bath? Do the british take long showers or short ones? ;)

It looks really good. Some strobing in the bricklayer footage, do you know the exposure time? And is there any possibility to add some motion blur with Premiere? ReVision, the company that offers Twixtor has a software that adds motion blur: ReelSmart. But I don't know how good it is. With de 5D, trying to make it look perfekt, we might never get out of postproduction... ;)

But regarding software I would like to stick with mainstream software like Apple Motion or Premiere simply to keep the expenses low.

One last word about the footage: These shots are quite simply to manage by motion tracking. I'm worried about fast, complex motion. Could you please hire a dozen kung fu fighters and shoot a short feature with them? (Or shoot in a local mall or cover a local soccer game?) I would really appreciate tricky footage!

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 02:56 PM
:thumbsup: :laugh: I loved (still loving :-) the blonde. Well, I should admit, I love blondes. Who is she? Your wife, girlfriend? Fishy, the pinky tone. :) It does effectively seem the pink disturbance that affects the film positive emulsions over a print some years old.


She is my girlfriend, a few seconds after saying "are you still playing with that camera?" :crybaby:


The pink is me playing around with a 'curves' filter (basically pushing the gamma of the blue channel up (lighter), yeah it does make it look a little old.

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 03:03 PM
She is my girlfriend, a few seconds after saying "are you still playing with that camera?" :crybaby:


The pink is me playing around with a 'curves' filter (basically pushing the gamma of the blue channel up (lighter), yeah it does make it look a little old.:D

They both look hot indeed! :-)

Might you add some other tests for distinct situations. It should be very interesting. Actually, you are the 1st one doing this worldwide.

mattsand
12-14-2008, 03:07 PM
i wouldn't call 10 meters from his house worldwide, not even 200 meters, and you're supposed to be a globetrotter, or at least eurotrotter? :-)

/matt

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 03:14 PM
Thank you, Lee! So, converting these two clips took you a bath? Do the british take long showers or short ones? ;)

It only took a few minutes (10-15??).

After Effects 7 - Mac OS X 10.4.11 - 2 x 2 GHz = around 10-15 minutes (for the builder clip)

I am sure the newest After Effects Pro + OS X 10.5 + one of the newer 8 x 3.2 GHz Macs would be much much faster.


It looks really good. Some strobing in the bricklayer footage

Can't see that myself ? Although I don't doubt you as I like I said it's just a bit of point and shoot on auto exposure (not locked).


do you know the exposure time?

Switch on > Press the LiveView button > Point it at the fella doing the brickwork > Press 'Go' ! (SET)

That is what I know !


And is there any possibility to add some motion blur with Premiere? ReVision, the company that offers Twixtor has a software that adds motion blur: ReelSmart. But I don't know how good it is. With de 5D, trying to make it look perfekt, we might never get out of postproduction... ;)

After Effects 'Timewarp' (basically the same code that does the clever time stretching) does very very good motion blur.

It's a great way to do motion tracking - shoot at a high shutter speed (I am talking about my HV30 here not the 5D2 ! So we are talking 1/2000th) - stabilize or motion track the pin sharp footage - then add motion blur.


But regarding software I would like to stick with mainstream software like Apple Motion or Premiere simply to keep the expenses low.

I am sure they all use very similar maths to do their trickery.


I would really appreciate tricky footage!

Good god, my work never ends, I have given you loads of people on a bridge - will that count as 'complex'.:zombie_smiley::)

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 03:14 PM
i wouldn't call 10 meters from his house worldwide, not even 200 meters, and you're supposed to be a globetrotter, or at least eurotrotter? :-)

/mattEurotrotter? I'm still waiting for him here in Paris. And you Mattias, are you coming? :laugh:

As matter of fact, Lee is already wordwide famous -- dvxuser.com is a worldwide community. Line-stepping killer, Lord of the Conversions. He's going well indeed. I am his fan. :-)

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 03:20 PM
Might you add some other tests for distinct situations.

Here's the thing . . . .

The reason I am not too bothered about doing lots of tests is because I know between time stretching and slowing the footage down it is fairly straightforward to convert 30p to 25p successfully.

There will be some scenes that cause glitches and artefacts, but I would simply go in and manually mask and manipulate the problem areas.

The tests I have shown you are simply thrown in and rendered - all the many many parameters and controls are never touched, so if you have the time you can play around with these to tune your conversion.


It should be very interesting. Actually, you are the 1st one doing this worldwide.

That is something I am not proud of. :crybaby:

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 03:22 PM
Eurotrotter? I'm still waiting for him here in Paris. And you Mattias, are you coming? :laugh:

As matter of fact, Lee is already wordwide famous -- dvxuser.com is a worldwide community. Line-stepping killer, Lord of the Conversions. He's going well indeed. I am his fan. :-)

Excellent ! Is there a fan club . . .


. . and can I join ? :2vrolijk_08:

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 03:24 PM
It's a great way to do motion tracking - shoot at a high shutter speed (I am talking about my HV30 here not the 5D2 ! So we are talking 1/2000th) - stabilize or motion track the pin sharp footage - then add motion blur.
Shouldn't it be shot as close to 1/48 or 1/50 shutter as possible?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1494040&highlight=1%2F48th#post1494040

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 03:28 PM
Shouldn't it be shot as close to 1/48 or 1/50 shutter as possible?

No.

Shooting a very high shutter speed freezes the image with no motion blur - making motion tracking (and other compositing) very easy.

Once you have done your tracking/stabilizing/compositing - you can then add the motion blur back in to make it look like 1/48.

joe 1008
12-14-2008, 03:34 PM
Excellent ! Is there a fan club . . .


. . and can I join ? :2vrolijk_08:

I didn't forget the bridge footage. Considerme as the first member of the club! :)

And the strobing of the bricklayer footage ist due to a fast shutter IMO. But it's not that bad. I'm just in my half paranoic artefact mode: Strobing, aliasing and jelly everywhere!!! :Drogar-Love(DBG):

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 03:36 PM
I didn't forget the bridge footage. Considerme as the first member of the club! :)

Well then can I be the second ?

Do we get badges or stickers or anything ?

mattsand
12-14-2008, 03:37 PM
Eurotrotter? I'm still waiting for him here in Paris.
yeah, you're the eurotrotter, he only goes 10 meters from his house. which is why i found it surprising that you said he was doing his tests globally. :-)

i'm coming to paris on saturday btw, staying until the 28th.

/matt

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 03:39 PM
No.

Shooting a very high shutter speed freezes the image with no motion blur - making motion tracking (and other compositing) very easy.

Once you have done your tracking/stabilizing/compositing - you can then add the motion blur back in to make it look like 1/48.Don't you agree with this colleague of yours, then?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?p=1494040&highlight=1%2F48th#post1494040


The answer comes here:


«You make it sound so easy! If only it was.. :-)

I work in Visual effects, and I've been working in the field for years. I've personally worked with most major compositing packages over this time. Shake and Nuke both have optical flow methods and both are very good (we use them mainly to retime shots, make them longer etc.) and for certain shots, you would be hard pressed to tell it wasn't originally shot like that.

BUT, in order for optical flow to work successfully at all, you have to have footage that lends itself to be retimed nicely in the first place. A good example of a shot that is horrible for retiming, is a crowd shot from waist level stacked on top of eachother. The algorithm to calculate the motion vectors that optical flow uses, will have a hard time tracking what belongs to what, creating artifacts in the rendered frames. This is but one example, many shots with countering motion between parallaxing objects are headaches to deal with.

(...)

Taking my notes above, my point is that software will only work when the footage is agreeable. And even then, it isn't quite the same as film with a 180 degree shutter.. But certain types of shots work much better than others.

I also want to note, that not all 30p footage is the same. The motion blur from standard film is about 2 times faster than 24p, so about 1/48th second per frame. This creates the familiar motion blur we associate with "film". Many 30p sources are shot at faster shutters, creating more crisp "video" looking footage, like Vincent Laforet's latest short film "Reverie". That's the main reason it still looked like video, as beautiful as it was.

30p shot at a shutter speed of 1/48th would be much closer to a film look than using the shutter that they had used at but with 24p output. 24p AND 1/48th are necessary for the look.

Back to the topic, my point here is that to achieve a "film" look, and not just convert video footage to different frame rates, you need to capture the footage the real way. Software as you pointed out, can help, but they are limited and need a lot going for them to be truly successful.»


~ Nordin [ LINK (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/postersprofile.asp?poster=hjilidieheiv) for profile] http://rahhali.com


EDIT -- Here's the link:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29497059

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 03:50 PM
I'm coming to paris on saturday btw, staying until the 28th.

/matt

This is another bloody fan club meeting I have not been invited to . . . again ! :(

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 04:00 PM
Don't you agree with this colleague of yours, then.

Whether I agree with him or not is irrelevant.

I am saying that for motion tracking / stabilizing - a very high shutter speed is very useful.

He is saying that for a filmic look a 180deg shutter angle is desirable, which is great (and correct) - but what does that have to do with what I am saying ?


:zombie_smiley: (no need for this smiley, I just like it)

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 04:10 PM
Whether I agree with him or not is irrelevant.

I am saying that for motion tracking / stabilizing - a very high shutter speed is very useful.

He is saying that for a filmic look a 180deg shutter angle is desirable, which is great (and correct) - but what does that have to do with what I am saying ?

It is relevant 'cause the common territoire I can find between both of you is the 180 degrees. He's saying 1/48th for a good 24fps conversion, though.

180 degrees @30p is 1/60th shutter. But you're referring high shutter speeds. Such as?

I am not as sure as I'd like and want to be.

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 04:23 PM
It is relevant 'cause the common territoire I can find between both of you is the 180 degrees.


No really, it is irrelevant !

He is talking about what is good for a filmic look (a shutter speed close to a film cameras 180 degree angle or 1/48th @ 24fps).

I am talking about what is useful for motion tracking/stabilizing (a high shutter speed like 1/2000th to freeze motion).

He is taking about a good way to impart a nice soft filmic motion blur onto the footage, I am talking about how to completely avoid motion blur.

And 1/2000th is around 5.4 degrees by the way - not 180 degrees, so no common territory at all, honestly !!

:zombie_smiley::zombie_smiley:

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 04:43 PM
No really, it is irrelevant !

He is talking about what is good for a filmic look (a shutter speed close to a film cameras 180 degree angle or 1/48th @ 24fps).

I am talking about what is useful for motion tracking/stabilizing (a high shutter speed like 1/2000th to freeze motion).

He is taking about a good way to impart a nice soft filmic motion blur onto the footage, I am talking about how to completely avoid motion blur.

And 1/2000th is around 5.4 degrees by the way - not 180 degrees, so no common territory at all, honestly !!
I see your both smileys... LOL

On topic, you are right. Different approaches indeed.

Wouldn't you suggest the low speed then?

In this case, since the video seems to be limited to the 1/30th and 1/125th, what would it be your suggestion?

Is a 125th shutter enough?

Or is a higher shutter speed strictly necessary for a good 24fps conversion?
What is the sweet spot in your opinion?


PS:
Should I quote your zombies smileys too or aren't they strictly necessary?

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 05:02 PM
On topic, you are right. Different approaches indeed.

Different results often require different approaches.


Wouldn't you suggest the low speed then?

For what ?


In this case, since the video seems to be limited to the 1/30th and 1/125th, what would it be your suggestion?

For what ?


Is a 125th shutter enough?

For motion stabilization, motion tracking, compositing and so on ?
1/125th is not very fast but it helps a little as it removes some of the motion blur.


Or is a higher shutter speed strictly necessary for a good 24fps conversion?

Ok, now you have gone off the rails again ! We were comparing A with B.

A: A filmic look (through the emulation of a specific shutter angle to render a certain amount of motion blur that is common to motion picture cameras with a 180 degree shutter)

. . . . with . . .

B: A very high shutter speed to freeze motion and make post production technique (such as motion stabilization and compositing) easier.

And now we have moved on to the question of is a high shutter speed necessary for a good 24fps conversion !

My answer to this unrelated question would be 'no', not at all, a high shutter speed is not necessary for a good 24fps conversion, I don't believe I have ever said it was.


:crybaby:

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 05:15 PM
Lee,

I thought you'd be defending a higher shutter speed in order to the best conditions for 24fps conversion.

Succeeding your own posting and others' opinion, it does seem obvious that's not an easy process.

In this case, also granted the fact you have a 5D Mark II with you -- and I not yet, you have some experience with these techniques, can you suggest the sweet spot for the shutter speed in order to the best 24fps conversion from 30p shooting?

E. :-)

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 05:46 PM
Lee,

I thought you'd be defending a higher shutter speed in order to the best conditions for 24fps conversion.

Why, who said a high shutter speed helps with a 24fps conversion? Certainly not me.

What I have said is that a high shutter speed helps with post processes like motion tracking and stabilizing.

OK, in case you don't realise . . . . :crybaby: [the sound of a man giving up the will to live] . . . converting your 30p footage to 25p has nothing at all to do with motion tracking or stablizing your footage.


Notice the pattern of my conversation . . . . .



It's a great way to do motion tracking - shoot at a high shutter speed



Shooting a very high shutter speed freezes the image with no motion blur - making motion tracking (and other compositing) very easy.



I am saying that for motion tracking / stabilizing - a very high shutter speed is very useful.



I am talking about what is useful for motion tracking/stabilizing (a high shutter speed like 1/2000th to freeze motion).




In this case, also granted the fact you have a 5D Mark II with you -- and I not yet, you have some experience with these techniques, can you suggest the sweet spot for the shutter speed in order to the best 24fps conversion from 30p shooting?

E. :-)

Converting from 30p to 24p is largely unaffected by what shutter speed you use, I expect a slower shutter speed may help you hide any artifacting.

I think you are confusing shutter speed with time stretching and motion tracking with shutter angle ! :crybaby:

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 06:16 PM
I thought you were referring the same thing. I am not a techie. My background (on the filmmaking field) is coming from the aesthetics side. So let's take it as principle, I know nothing on the subject matter and I feel much comfortable.

My only goal is, since the 5D Mark II has no other movie frame rate than 30p, the best way for 24fps conversion. We are talking about shutter speed now.

@24fps, it's easy. 180 degrees 1/48th and that's it. But shooting with a 5D Mark II, it will mean the use of 30p. So, I'd like to know what's the best shutter speed for further 24fps conversion.

1) Are you simply saying is any shutter speed among 1/30th and 125th (limit range in video mode) suitable for the task? Is this what I can infer?

2) Considering we are shooting 30p, is 1/60th better than any other else?

3) Or is the 1/125th shutter speed better for 24fps conversion (taking in consideration some advantages you have been referring) ?

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 06:21 PM
I am not a techie.

No way ! :):2vrolijk_08:



My only goal is, since the 5D Mark II has no other movie frame rate than 30p, the best way for 24fps conversion.

1) Are you saying is any shutter speed among 1/30th and 125th (limit range in video mode) suitable for the task? Is this what I can infer?

2) Considering we are shooting 30p, is 1/60th better than any other else?

3) Or is the 1/125th shutter speed better for 24fps conversion (taking in consideration some advantages you have been referring) ?


Point 3 made me cry. :crybaby:

What advantages have I been referring to that makes 1/125th better for a 24fps conversion ?

If you can answer this question, I will answer your other ones. :)

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 06:33 PM
I think you already have your answer on the 1st line of your post quoting my prior one -- I asked you to have it as principle. :-)


What advantages have I been referring to that makes 1/125th better for a 24fps conversion ?

Moreover and also 'cause everything in life can have an explanation (sometimes don't), it shouldn't be necessary to post it but I will. Here is:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1495951&postcount=113

You need to have a better reading on your own posting. You have been referring some advantage for a higher shutter speed on the compositing process (tracking, stabilizing) and the further addition of motion blur in order to make it look like 1/48th.

Since the subject is not other than the 24fps conversion, it's not odd to infer the same. You must pay attention to the information you pass to your interlocutor.

Can you now answer to my questions?

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 06:43 PM
Moreover and also 'cause everything in life can have an explanation (others don't), it shouldn't be necessary to post it but I will. Here is

Shooting a very high shutter speed freezes the image with no motion blur - making motion tracking (and other compositing) very easy.

Once you have done your tracking/stabilizing/compositing - you can then add the motion blur back in to make it look like 1/48.

No part of that says that a high shutter speed is better for 24fps conversion, so try and out that out of your mind.

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 07:01 PM
Can you now answer to my questions?


I really don't think I can ! Your mind is a deep chasm of mystery and wonder, where pure unanchored ideas are free to copulate, and the children of these ideas float around and fight and then kill and eat each other and eventually mate to produce ever increasingly mutated offspring.

But I will try.


I'd like to know what's the best shutter speed for further 24fps conversion.


1) Are you simply saying is any shutter speed among 1/30th and 125th (limit range in video mode) suitable for the task? Is this what I can infer?

Yes, any shutter speed will be more or less as successful as each other when it comes to being converted from 30fps to 24fps - although it is likely that lower shutter speeds (specifically their motion blur characteristics.) will better hide any artefacting that gets generated.


2) Considering we are shooting 30p, is 1/60th better than any other else?

For converting to 24fps ? No, 1/60th will yield no real advantages I can think of ?

But . . . of course 1/60th will perfectly emulate a 180 degree shutter angle giving it a more filmic look - so it is worth using 1/60th for this reason alone- even if it has no bearing on the 30 to 24 fps conversion process.


3) Or is the 1/125th shutter speed better for 24fps conversion (taking in consideration some advantages you have been referring) ?

No one has said 1/125th is better for 24fps conversions, so the answer would be 'no'.

All clear !

[get's on his knees and prays to one of the popular imaginary gods]

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 07:08 PM
Nearly forgot . . . .

:zombie_smiley: :zombie_smiley: :zombie_smiley: :crybaby: :crybaby: :zombie_smiley: :zombie_smiley: :crybaby:

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 07:19 PM
Yes, you must not forget your usual smileys. :dankk2: anyway for your input. Some trouble for putting a simple response out. Hard but at last, there it is. </sigh>

joe 1008
12-14-2008, 07:29 PM
Ran out of beer, can't go on reading this thread anymore :huh::-Mark-13(DBG)

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 07:32 PM
Yes, you must not forget your usual smileys. :dankk2: anyway for your input. Some trouble for putting a simple response out. Hard but at last, there it is. </sigh>

:)

The man who asks poor questions will always complain about the quality of the answers he gets.


Here they come . . . . . .
:zombie_smiley: :zombie_smiley: :zombie_smiley: :crybaby: :zombie_smiley: :crybaby:

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 07:34 PM
Ran out of beer, can't go on reading this thread anymore :huh::-Mark-13(DBG)

You did it just with Beer ! You are a braver man than me, by page 12 I was on crack.

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 07:39 PM
:)

The man who asks poor questions will always complain about the quality of the answers he gets.


Here they come . . . . . .
:zombie_smiley: :zombie_smiley: :zombie_smiley: :crybaby: :zombie_smiley: :crybaby:Complaining about what, Lee?

I think you're just too much confused. Go to sleep. And take a lesson for free (I am used to be paid when I am giving lessons out there):

When someone gives us a compliment, a show off is the worst manner to appreciate it. It is just sad. No more, no less.

EDIT -- Acknowledgement done, no insult intended :-)

joe 1008
12-14-2008, 07:43 PM
You did it just with Beer ! You are a braver man than me, by page 12 I was on crack.

I'll call my dealer and will be back, soon!:zombie_smiley::Drogar-Dolar(DBG):

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 07:44 PM
Complaining about what, Lee?

I think you're just too much confused. Go to sleep. And take a lesson for free (I am used to be paid when I am giving lessons out there):

When someone gives us a compliment, a show off is the worst manner to appreciate it. It is just sad. No more, no less.

Hmmm . . . ?

I answered your questions, insult is not really necessary.

Lee Wilson
12-14-2008, 07:49 PM
This message is hidden because Emanuel is on your ignore list.

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 07:52 PM
This message is hidden because Emanuel is on your ignore list.:laugh: Good reply but you should review the pronoun (no insult taken or intended). Now go to sleep. :-)

Emanuel
12-14-2008, 10:15 PM
yeah, you're the eurotrotter, he only goes 10 meters from his house. which is why i found it surprising that you said he was doing his tests globally. :-)

i'm coming to paris on saturday btw, staying until the 28th.

/mattMattias,

Take a glance on it -- I am not in Paris (just a joke but not mine):

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1495632&postcount=92

I am in Rome nowadays (till Christmas at least).

It would be fine to meet you anywhere, I hope soon! :beer:

Emanuel :-)

mattsand
12-15-2008, 02:26 AM
I know you're not in paris, and i know for sure lee isn't. I think you said you travel a lot though so who knows. As for joking sorry for the low quality but you still haven't gotten mine. :-)

Emanuel
12-15-2008, 08:05 AM
I know you're not in paris, and i know for sure lee isn't. I think you said you travel a lot though so who knows. As for joking sorry for the low quality but you still haven't gotten mine. :-)Now? Maybe not, maybe yes. Something I know as far as your posts concern. You have a POV about yourself. This is the ultimate starting point for anyone, better than anything else. Your own can be not so far. Or at least, not so. Humbleness is something that also usually helps. Not that I should recommend to you. Keep going on your readings. :thumbsup: :-)

mattsand
12-15-2008, 08:26 AM
this is getting confusing. for a while i thought the crack thing was a joke... :-)

Emanuel
12-16-2008, 11:29 PM
Is it not? :huh: :laugh:

BTW, I love that one of the Bresson's mottos replying to the press:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1495261&postcount=7

Emanuel
12-16-2008, 11:33 PM
I've found this:


«You can edit in 30P, then when finished, run the footage through a conversion to 24P. Apple Shake and Motion have Optical Flow technology that works very well for this. It is not frame blending, the frames are completely redrawn using an advanced technology called Motion Vectors. The result is cinema quality. If your footage going in is 180 degree shutter, that will be the angle generated. It works best with Progressive to Progressive conversions since the Interlacing can lead to some flickering between frames.

I do this quite often for TV commercials and DVD's that often look better at 24P in Standard def. That said, I prefer the look of 24P in standard def since DVD's and Plasma TV's will remove the pulldown automatically and thereby increase resolution. In native HDTV environments I prefer the look of 30P for most footage since it just locks in with most Display refresh rates better with less flicker.

Shooting in 30P is the better choice all around since the Optical Flow conversion works best when "down converting" frames rather than raising the frame rate.»


http://cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25&p=284&hilit=conversion#p284


«As I've said about 30 times around here lately, (it*) can be easily and perfectly retimed to 24P if you have Apple Final Cut Studio's Motion app, or Apple Shake. The technology is called Optical Flow, and alternately may be called Motion Vectors.

30P is a serious limitation of the camera only if you don't have the right software. Most if not all indie filmmakers have this software. It's like the Photoshop of film making.

In the vast majority of footage, 30P will look better on an HDTV. 24P is only superior in SD when delivered over DVD compression.»

* typo (in the original text it is mentioned 24p) as far as I could understand


http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29496902


~ Matthew Thomas

http://www.thomasarts.com (company website)
http://gallery.me.com/thomasarts (company photo working gallery)
http://gallery.me.com/mthomas


The answer comes here:


«You make it sound so easy! If only it was.. :-)

I work in Visual effects, and I've been working in the field for years. I've personally worked with most major compositing packages over this time. Shake and Nuke both have optical flow methods and both are very good (we use them mainly to retime shots, make them longer etc.) and for certain shots, you would be hard pressed to tell it wasn't originally shot like that.

BUT, in order for optical flow to work successfully at all, you have to have footage that lends itself to be retimed nicely in the first place. A good example of a shot that is horrible for retiming, is a crowd shot from waist level stacked on top of eachother. The algorithm to calculate the motion vectors that optical flow uses, will have a hard time tracking what belongs to what, creating artifacts in the rendered frames. This is but one example, many shots with countering motion between parallaxing objects are headaches to deal with.

(...)

Taking my notes above, my point is that software will only work when the footage is agreeable. And even then, it isn't quite the same as film with a 180 degree shutter.. But certain types of shots work much better than others.

I also want to note, that not all 30p footage is the same. The motion blur from standard film is about 2 times faster than 24p, so about 1/48th second per frame. This creates the familiar motion blur we associate with "film". Many 30p sources are shot at faster shutters, creating more crisp "video" looking footage, like Vincent Laforet's latest short film "Reverie". That's the main reason it still looked like video, as beautiful as it was.

30p shot at a shutter speed of 1/48th would be much closer to a film look than using the shutter that they had used at but with 24p output. 24p AND 1/48th are necessary for the look.

Back to the topic, my point here is that to achieve a "film" look, and not just convert video footage to different frame rates, you need to capture the footage the real way. Software as you pointed out, can help, but they are limited and need a lot going for them to be truly successful.»


~ Nordin [ LINK (http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/postersprofile.asp?poster=hjilidieheiv) for profile] http://rahhali.com


EDIT -- Here's the link:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29497059

There are some further replies on the subject matter:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29501437

«apples' optical flow is not the same as frame blending. Please look this up on the web or here. I've described it several times lately here in minor detail. Apples' website has a much better explaination. Adam Wilte also has some nice tutorials that explain it.

Optical flow creates entirely NEW FRAMES that didn't exist before. It doesn't just blend and overlay existing pixels. It by default uses the same shutter angle (shutter speed) as it senses in your source footage. So if you are shooting close to a 180 degree shutter in 30P (1/60sec) The optical flow process will turn that to a 48th/sec if you are retiming to 24P.

Using Optical Flow is easy but the files it uses to create the new frames are called Motion Vector files and are essentially 20X larger than the footage files. When you've retimed, you can delete these, but I tend to keep them around for future retiming.

Again, using retiming is a pain. Many will not do it and just complain about the camera because they don't trust that such a feature can look as good as it does. My goal in this forum is to provide people solutions to the limitations of the camera so they can stop complaining and start posting work again.»

~ Matthew Thomas


And here comes the answer:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=29503862

bronxjragon
12-17-2008, 12:08 AM
seriously, this is the d90 forum..

joe 1008
12-17-2008, 06:46 AM
seriously, this is the d90 forum..

Look, Bronxjragon: Since this forum has been started there were discussed both cameras, the d90 AND the 5D. It's basically a forum for hybrid DSLRs and it will be so until somebody creates a separate one for the 5D.

But I can live with the status quo: There are so many issues both cameras share that it makes sense.

bronxjragon
12-17-2008, 09:39 AM
Look, Bronxjragon: Since this forum has been started there were discussed both cameras, the d90 AND the 5D. It's basically a forum for hybrid DSLRs and it will be so until somebody creates a separate one for the 5D.

But I can live with the status quo: There are so many issues both cameras share that it makes sense.

not really

joe 1008
12-17-2008, 09:53 AM
Feel free to convince a moderator to create a 5D site on this blog. I wouldn't oppose it.

Emanuel
12-17-2008, 10:28 AM
Who would do and why? :)


You are both surely right. I had applied myself to be a mod here (other cameras sub-forum) a long time ago. Despite you can't find native* mods in this part of dvxuser.com -- an excellent moviemaking community since its beginning. However, Jarred is not too much in this extra mood. His business is not to support a DSLR shooters community.

* I mean, outside the DVX or HVX realm.

Another interesting fact is how much free this sub-forum is. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be owned by one of the RED project heads. I must admit, I have read some unpleasant points, at times. We should all know, this is RED's house too.

On the other hand, the fact is D5 Mark II has immersed D90, as well, a complete new DSLR market has emerged.

bronxjragon
12-17-2008, 11:52 AM
Feel free to convince a moderator to create a 5D site on this blog. I wouldn't oppose it.

the guys here at phantom-mods. never hear from them, never hear back from them

Lee Wilson
12-17-2008, 06:22 PM
More 5D2 - 25p:

http://vimeo.com/2559751

joe 1008
12-17-2008, 07:31 PM
Lee, two questions:

1) What was the shutter speed of the original footage?

2) Where did that guy learn acting?

Emanuel
12-17-2008, 07:33 PM
You beat me man :-) asking the same before my post. Nice kid, actually.

John Caballero
12-17-2008, 07:47 PM
You can inform on the 5d all you want. The more we learn from this new cameras the better. Don't pay attention to the complainers. They are everywhere and all they do is get in the way of progress.

Emanuel
12-17-2008, 08:28 PM
They eat kids at breakfast.

filmmaker's gang
12-17-2008, 08:38 PM
More 5D2 - 25p:

http://vimeo.com/2559751
seems unrealistically slow..

joe 1008
12-17-2008, 08:58 PM
I suppose that impression comes from a slow shutter, probably 1/30, but I would like to have the confirmation from Lee about that.


They eat kids at breakfast.

As long as they post it on vimeo that's fine :evil:

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 03:25 AM
Lee, two questions:

1) What was the shutter speed of the original footage?

I have no clue ! Point and shoot I am afraid, I didn't even lock the exposure. :(


2) Where did that guy learn acting?

:)

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 03:28 AM
seems unrealistically slow..

It is running at the right speed, nothing has been sped up or slowed down.

filmmaker's gang
12-18-2008, 10:55 AM
so why seems so slow?..

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 11:24 AM
so why seems so slow?..

Seems ok to me.

Thebes
12-18-2008, 11:33 AM
My wife tends to find footage with a high shutter speed to be "fast", though it isn't. I can see the same happening with a low shutter, making it seem slow to some, though it isn't.


So, are there any tests showing the 5DM2 retimed (preferably to 24p) in situations where artifacts are likely (many similar items in frame or multiple moving items in different directions, or whatever)?

It looks like we are now planning to shoot our doc with a pair of D90s for main camera (swapping due to heat issues). It wouldn't cost me much more to go with the 5DM2, but I want 24p... test footage of a baby thats staying pretty still doesn't convince me I can successfully retime the overwhelming majority of my footage.

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 11:44 AM
test footage of a baby thats staying pretty still doesn't convince me I can successfully retime the overwhelming majority of my footage.

I will tell him of your concerns, but I don't think he is going to be happy about it.

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 11:46 AM
So, are there any tests showing the 5DM2 retimed (preferably to 24p) in situations where artifacts are likely (many similar items in frame or multiple moving items in different directions, or whatever)?

http://www.vimeo.com/2522507
http://www.vimeo.com/2524276
http://www.vimeo.com/2072194
http://www.vimeo.com/2069928

filmmaker's gang
12-18-2008, 01:32 PM
doesn't retiming affect the footage?.. slowing the motion?

mattsand
12-18-2008, 02:08 PM
no, that's the point.

(didn't you ask the exact same thing last time around?) ;-)

/matt

Gordon Prince
12-18-2008, 02:17 PM
I didn't understand this system of retiming either. Isn't it the same as overcranking?

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 05:13 PM
doesn't retiming affect the footage?.. slowing the motion?


No not at all, you are simply changing the frame rate.

10 seconds @ 30 fps = 10 seconds.
10 seconds @ 25 fps = 10 seconds.
10 seconds @ 1 fps = 10 seconds.

And so on . . . .

Gordon Prince
12-18-2008, 05:23 PM
Okay, but what does retiming mean? 25 fps = less 5 frames. Any drop? Nope. What's up?

It's probably too simple for a few. But ask to everybody, I bet 4/5 don't follow what retiming is.

bjdowns
12-18-2008, 05:27 PM
Okay, but what does retiming mean? 25 fps = less 5 frames. Any drop? Nope. What's up?

It's probably too simple for a few. But ask to everybody, I bet 4/5 don't follow what retiming is.

I'm no expert, but I believe that retiming actually renders missing frames using interpolation algorithms in software suites. After Effects can do this, as well as the plug-in, Twixtor.

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 06:21 PM
Okay, but what does retiming mean? 25 fps = less 5 frames. Any drop? Nope. What's up?

The software generates 25 frames from the 30 frames by analysing the pixel information in each frame.

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 06:22 PM
I didn't understand this system of retiming either. Isn't it the same as overcranking?

No, nothing is being sped up or slowed down.

Maybe I should do a visual example to help explain . . . . .

Thebes
12-18-2008, 07:11 PM
http://www.vimeo.com/2522507
http://www.vimeo.com/2524276
http://www.vimeo.com/2072194
http://www.vimeo.com/2069928

Thanks for that Lee!

DL'd the footage and it looked quite good except for some horrific artifacts with people moving past each other in multiple directions at about 1 sec in 5D MkII 30p to 25p test 2. I could barely see the artifacts in the small vimeo clip but I could tell something was wrong without pausing to pixel peep with the hd upload. Ouch... truly bizarre if only for a few frames at a time.

I am not sure I can deal with that on my primary camera... but the rest of it definitely had higher image quality than the D90. I wonder if a different algorythm would fix those tiny bits. Or if some post technique might clean it up...


Hypothetically, what would the workflow be?
Retiming and saving in a decent editting codec for the entire footage shot for a feature length doc isn't my idea of a fun time!
Just edit and then retime the final project? Somehow save my edits and create a new project using them with the retimed footage? Maybe render and retime each clip on the timeline of a rough-cut and work from there?

Lee Wilson
12-18-2008, 07:57 PM
Thanks for that Lee!

DL'd the footage and it looked quite good except for some horrific artifacts with people moving past each other in multiple directions at about 1 sec in 5D MkII 30p to 25p test 2.

Yep, they are typical of the kind of artefact this technique can throw up.

But bear in mind of all the many many parameters (all adjustable over time) - I adjusted none, I just stuck it on the defaults, a better set up might yield much better results.

Also Twixtor is said to be a superior product to the After Effects implementation (which I used).



Hypothetically, what would the workflow be?

Work as normal, when finished retime the whole piece to 25/24 (or whatever) - go through and check for any weirdness or artefacts - and clean them up.

Caesar
12-18-2008, 08:19 PM
go through and check for any weirdness or artefacts - and clean them up.With which tools?

Lee Wilson
12-19-2008, 02:56 AM
With which tools?

That depends on the kinds of issues to be addressed, the subject matter, your expectation, your time constraints and so on.

denverkr
02-24-2009, 01:40 PM
Superb 30p to 24p Workflow

1. Create copy of clip so you'll have two clips, one to convert to 24p and one to preserve audio.

2. Open Cinema Tool (part of Final Cut Studio), File, "Open Clip", choose "Conform", specify "23.98" to conform to.

Explanation: This keeps the same number of frames in the clip, it only changes the timebase from 30fps to 24fps, essentially creates overcranked footage by 6 frames, (desirable on some shots). As a result this makes the clip longer and slows the audio down which is undesirable where audio is important. At this point you've already created a copy of the original clip therefore preserving the original audio which we'll relink later in Final Cut.

3. Now we'll convert the clip to a desirable format for the workflow and effectively speed the clip back up so you get desirable 24p realtime results. Using Compressor 3 convert the clip to any of the following settings:

* Apple Pro Res
* Apple Intermediate Codec
* DVCPRO

Important: Make sure that no matter which codec you use that it remains as a 23.98 fps timebase.

Now open the inspector window so we can do some tweaking. Under "Frame Controls" tab, click the button to the right of "Frame Controls:" to enable this feature. Once enabled, select "On" for "Frame Controls:" Underneath the "Retiming Control" section is where we'll make changes. For "Set Duration to:" click the radio button where it will allow us to put in a percentage. The magical number we'll want to put in here is 79.996%, then depending on how well you want the footage to look also taking into consideration the time it will require to compress it choose the desired quality under "Rate Conversion:". I choose, "Best (High quality motion compesnation)" to get superb results, however this increases the compression time.

Now, what have we done here? We've converted the unusable H.264 format into a format we can edit in and sped the footage back up to original duration using Apple's Optical Flow Technology.

4. Now take the treated clip into Final Cut insuring the timebase is 23.98, delete the audio track and add the audio from the copy of the clip we made. Now relink and presto!

I've extensively tested this and find it to be the best way to convert 30p to 24p for the time being, or atleast until and hopefully Canon comes up with a firmware to address the issue.

Additional Tips: If you have multiple clips to treat, in Cinema Tools, choose "Batch Conform" locate one file where all the files are located. Then setup batch conversions in compressor, if you have a quad core or 8 core configure Q master to take advantage of all cores otherwise it will take longer.

One final note, depending on the specific needs of your project you may need to treat many individual clips or take your finished project (of course h.264 has been converted to an editable format) and follow the steps above to get great results. I've tested a 9 minute clip and was able to complete the compression on an 8 core in one hour and a half.

Bests,
Denver Riddle

denverkr
02-25-2009, 01:58 PM
Just wanted to make a small correction to setting duration. I had indicated that 79.996% was the magic number when in fact depending on the length of the clip it can very slightly. So the safest way is to take the original audio into the final cut pro timeline, go the last frame and read the duration HH:MM:SS:FF (for example 01:08:01:06) then in your retiming control, click the middle "Set Duration to:" radio button and set the matching timecode duration.

Note: It's important when you're determining the length of the audio clip that the final cut pro timeline/sequence is set 23.98 timebase, if it's on anything else you won't be able to get the right reading.

Hope that helps, let me know if you've found this beneficial.

Bests,
Denver

Elton
02-25-2009, 02:10 PM
Hey Denver,

Does this method avoid adding interpolated frames to the footage? It seem like its the reverse of doing a 30 to 24p conversion with the frame controls turned on and quality set to "high quality motion compensated", and duration set to 100%.

I get pretty good results this way, but you do get interpolated/blended frames that are sometimes noticeable in the footage.

Have you stepped through your footage to see if you get occasional interpolation frames?

Thanks for posting!

denverkr
02-26-2009, 09:46 AM
Hey Denver,

Does this method avoid adding interpolated frames to the footage? It seem like its the reverse of doing a 30 to 24p conversion with the frame controls turned on and quality set to "high quality motion compensated", and duration set to 100%.

I get pretty good results this way, but you do get interpolated/blended frames that are sometimes noticeable in the footage.

Have you stepped through your footage to see if you get occasional interpolation frames?

Thanks for posting!

You know that's a really good question, I don't know that I could provide a good answer for you other then I suppose the concept of speeding footage back up to a certain duration is better than converting from a higher frame rate to a lower frame rate using frame controls. Someone might have a better answer but what I can tell you is I'm achieving near perfect, if not perfect results. I stepped through the footage and there's only the slightest motion blur on moving shots/action but no more motion blur then what you expect to be there. Of course without shutter speed control you can't ensure the correct exposure timing per frame, my guess is 1/60 shutter speed should be about right, then convert to 24p should yield in essence 1/48 shutter speed, someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that, I've always understood double the shutter speed for frame rate or 180 degrees angle.

You should treat a clip of footage both ways and step through each frame, compare frame for frame and see which yields better results, I'd be very interested in your findings and I'm sure a lot of people would be as well. That way I'd know if the additional steps are necessary.


Bests,
Denver

Thomas J. O'Hara
02-26-2009, 04:21 PM
You know that's a really good question, I don't know that I could provide a good answer for you other then I suppose the concept of speeding footage back up to a certain duration is better than converting from a higher frame rate to a lower frame rate using frame controls. Someone might have a better answer but what I can tell you is I'm achieving near perfect, if not perfect results. I stepped through the footage and there's only the slightest motion blur on moving shots/action but no more motion blur then what you expect to be there. Of course without shutter speed control you can't ensure the correct exposure timing per frame, my guess is 1/60 shutter speed should be about right, then convert to 24p should yield in essence 1/48 shutter speed, someone can correct me if I'm wrong on that, I've always understood double the shutter speed for frame rate or 180 degrees angle.

You should treat a clip of footage both ways and step through each frame, compare frame for frame and see which yields better results, I'd be very interested in your findings and I'm sure a lot of people would be as well. That way I'd know if the additional steps are necessary.


Bests,
Denver


can you post a test clip?

denverkr
03-03-2009, 03:37 PM
will post something as soon as I can, mind you i will be treating the footage to make it look like 35mm film, meaning very very subtle, grain, dust and flicker.

bests,
denver

denverkr
03-07-2009, 12:08 AM
Okay here you go, here's a finished video using the steps described on the previous page. I cut all in a 30p timeline then took the final self contained video and ran it through Cinema Tools and Compressor.

http://vimeo.com/3511070

Bests,
Denver

Elton
03-07-2009, 11:09 AM
Nice work, Denver. Cadence looked pretty much spot on.

Great looking piece...although the more I watch well done 5D stuff, the more I wish it had 60p, or even 60i. Smooth slowmo would be a nice option.

bjdowns
03-09-2009, 12:53 AM
Okay here you go, here's a finished video using the steps described on the previous page. I cut all in a 30p timeline then took the final self contained video and ran it through Cinema Tools and Compressor.

http://vimeo.com/3511070

Bests,
Denver

That looked excellent! I loved the feel of the video, it had a great rhythm, and kept me engaged.
I also was impressed at the use of those two lenses. It really showed me how much one can accomplish with a limited prime set.

One quick question; what was your process to emulate the look of 35mm stock? I noticed your little burn marks, and I'd like to get some insight into how you applied those to your video.

denverkr
03-09-2009, 07:38 AM
Elton & bjdowns, thanks for the positive feedback. Elton you know overcranking was one of the things I sacrificed when I went with the 5D (HVX200), but I am very pleased with the small form factor (3 lbs.), sensor size and interchangeable lenses. To your question bjdowns, footage was treated with Magic Bullet Looks, I added a little grain, dust and flicker. I wanted it to be very subtle (not distracting) so I adjusted the parameters accordingly. I like that natural look you see in older movie theaters that haven't updated to the new digital cinema projection. I think the future is brighter than it's ever been for aspiring film makers wanting to acheive a motion picture look. Check out Stu's commentary on the new Panasonic GH1:

http://prolost.blogspot.com/

bests,
Denver

hungrych
03-12-2009, 03:17 PM
Yo guys, does it take an absurdly long time to export the footage from compressor cause I have a 1 min clip that I converted in cinema tools and it is taking about an hour (I'm exporting as ProRes 442 on the highest motion quality setting)

alexandroff
03-13-2009, 02:53 AM
can anyone suggest a similar process steps accomplished in premiere?

denverkr
03-17-2009, 02:51 PM
Yo guys, does it take an absurdly long time to export the footage from compressor cause I have a 1 min clip that I converted in cinema tools and it is taking about an hour (I'm exporting as ProRes 442 on the highest motion quality setting)

This will depend a lot on the machine you're using. This is some serious heavy lifting so if you're on an older machine it could take a really long time. It's really hard to give you a guess of how long it should take because every machine is different. If you have a quad core or 8 core, it'll need to be configured in qmaster if you want to take advantage of all the cores. But to give you a guess, I think I was able to take the finished 3 minute interview and compress/convert to 24p in about 18 minutes on an 8 core. Wish I could offer a workflow for premier, the process works with Apple because of their optical flow technology, if Adobe has something similar then it's a possibility. If Adobe has a program that can conform or in other words change the timebase without altering anything else in the clip like cinema tools then, that takes care of that aspect as well.


All the best,
Denver

TimeKoder13
03-29-2009, 12:05 AM
This will depend a lot on the machine you're using. This is some serious heavy lifting so if you're on an older machine it could take a really long time. It's really hard to give you a guess of how long it should take because every machine is different. If you have a quad core or 8 core, it'll need to be configured in qmaster if you want to take advantage of all the cores. But to give you a guess, I think I was able to take the finished 3 minute interview and compress/convert to 24p in about 18 minutes on an 8 core. Wish I could offer a workflow for premier, the process works with Apple because of their optical flow technology, if Adobe has something similar then it's a possibility. If Adobe has a program that can conform or in other words change the timebase without altering anything else in the clip like cinema tools then, that takes care of that aspect as well.


All the best,
Denver

I do this all the time in Compressor tho Adobe Suite users can do this in After Effects. I have a 2008 3.0 8 core at work configured for this. I only have 6gb of ram, have heard that 16 is all the comp really makes use of, 32 is way overkill. I would imagine if you had a 3.0 with 16gb, things would blaze as you can use the MultiProcessors WITHOUT configuring Qmaster for Adobe. At least that's how After Effects CS3 worked for me when I rendered out scenes for a green screen video. MP support was in the Adobe AE preferences drop down menu. I must say it was a little hincky tho. Sometimes it worked fine, other times it would hang on the last frame of the render, forever, and I would just have to manually stop the render out. The file would be was usable but the process was annoying. I think there are two places in the preferences where you actually configure cache and mp support. Matter of fact I remember having to setup a script to modify an adobe setting. Sorry i don't remember the script but I got it from the Adobe site. I would suppose a google of mp setup might lead you to the Adobe KB at some point. Good luck...

Alvise Tedesco
03-30-2009, 01:06 PM
Thanks Denver.
Really perfect. BTW 83,334% here, for a smooth 25 frames per second.

Big downside...
20 min. (8 core) or 35 min. (recent macbook pro) for a 22 sec. clip!

chriszh1
04-01-2009, 04:13 PM
if i record the audio directly with the 5d&external mic, and convert the material without the audio to 24p, like shown here, the video gets slower am i right?
But if i relink the old audio with the 24 material, wouldn't it be out of sync then?
i mean wouldn't get the audio longer than than the video?

sounds dumb, but im still not shure about my next purchase (5d??)XD

Thanx

HVX2006
04-02-2009, 06:51 AM
Edit. Info already found.

HVX2006
04-02-2009, 06:56 AM
Thanks Denver.
Really perfect. BTW 83,334% here, for a smooth 25 frames per second.

Big downside...
20 min. (8 core) or 35 min. (recent macbook pro) for a 22 sec. clip!

So you only conform to 25p in cinema tools and than use 83,334% in compressor?

Alvise Tedesco
04-02-2009, 09:36 AM
exactly. very time consuming, but it looks like it was originally shot at 25 fps

Jalil
04-26-2011, 05:25 AM
Greetings,

Sorry if this post sounds redundant. I recently took over a project that has been shot at 30p (including interviews and plenty of lip-sync scenes). Final client needs a 25p output. How does the sound come out after converting from 30p to 25p through Twixtor??? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

Alvise Tedesco
04-26-2011, 10:16 AM
Distorted. You need original audio (30p) and paste it under Twixtored clips